Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Apr 1955

Vol. 150 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Mr. J. Brennan

Before I moved to report progress I was trying to deal with the problem of the undeveloped areas, and I was pointing out that the Undeveloped Areas Act did not reach far enough to solve completely the problem of bringing industry to the undeveloped areas on the western seaboard. The reasons are very obvious. In the smaller towns and backward areas the necessary capital is not available for investment in local industry and the incentive, no matter how great it may be, does not find the necessary local initiative to see that the necessary finance is forthcoming for local industry. Before the position develops much farther the Minister should consider the question of establishing State-sponsored industries in those areas. His predecessor made it amply clear when the Undeveloped Areas Bill was going through the House that if it had not the desired effect he could easily foresee a situation where the Government would have to take steps to see that industry was sponsored in certain areas.

The congested areas come under various Departments and for that reason some co-ordination is absolutely essential if there is to be a concerted effort made to create new industries or to develop those which already exist along the western seaboard and in the Gaeltacht areas. There is the Department of Fisheries, the Department of Lands and a number of other Departments whose efforts must be co-ordinated if further progress is to be made in that direction.

In that respect we in our time had a Parliamentary Secretary to the Government who was active in the co-ordination of the various Departments which are interested in the development of industry in the Gaeltacht and congested areas. I would urge the Minister to see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government would act in a similar capacity now or, if the present Parliamentary Secretary, who exists in name only, is not to undertake that important task, that the work be assigned to some other Minister or Parliamentary Secretary who will undertake the co-ordination of the various Departments in so far as their work relates to the development of industry in the congested areas. The Fisheries Section, State sponsored organisations such as Bord na Móna, the E.S.B. and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Land Commission and the Department of Industry and Commerce all have their finger to some extent in the pie so far as industries in the Gaeltacht and on the western seaboard are concerned. If we are not to have a separate Ministry, we believe it is essential to have a Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, who will exist in practice and not merely in name, for the purpose of co-ordinating those important services. Unless the Government have thrown in the towel and have decided to give up the fight to stop the flow of emigration and the depopulating of those areas, unless they consider it is not worth while trying any longer to keep people in those areas, they should take serious notice of the position.

Deputy Giles deplored the fact that people were being drawn from the land to work in industries in the towns. We would not quibble as to which towns they worked in if they worked in Irish towns. We realise that there is not sufficient employment on the land and that the entire family cannot remain on a small holding for the rest of their days, that if there are ten in family at least eight must find employment elsewhere. If they cannot find it in the towns in industries of one kind or another they have to emigrate. It is ridiculous for a Deputy like Deputy Giles to suggest that they should be prevented from going to industries in the towns and should be allowed to remain available as cheap labour to work on the land.

We think industrial development is moving far too slowly. It could not move fast enough so far as the problem of depopulation is concerned. But, while we shall not quibble as to whether they work in Dublin, Cork, Galway or some Irish town, we would prefer to see industries established in the immediate vicinity, in villages in the Gaeltacht and undeveloped areas. It is that problem which we would like the Minister to tackle seriously.

I do not know if the same opinion is held by other Deputies but I think the day is fast approaching when the small town will disappear in some areas. In the small town or village the weekly market day has disappeared and with it much of the traffic that used to come into the town or village. The result is that the grocer is forced out with his shop on wheels. The mobile shop is the order of the day. One grocer sets out with his van to bring his shop to the people when the people will not come to him and his neighbour must do the same if he is to compete. The shop is brought to the door of the man-in-the-country and the people need not come to the towns and those in the villages and towns who depended on the traffic which came in from the hinterland find themselves deprived of business with the result that the town is fast fading out. It is essential to have healthy and prosperous villages and towns if we are to have a prosperous rural area. One is essential to the other, one is indispensable to the other.

The position as it exists at the moment is just a case of "as nothing succeeds like success, nothing fails like failure." The competition between the travelling shops is tending towards diverting further traffic from the towns and villages with the result that there is a complete lack of employment and the villages and smaller towns are being left in some cases with little or no business except that which those who can afford to compete on wheels can do by bringing out their wares to the rural areas. That is a serious problem which somebody must tackle before very long. I suppose the grocer in a village feels he has a right to bring his provisions along the roads of the rural areas to his customers' doors. His rival in the same village feels that if he is to exist in trade he must do the same and the village is being deprived of the traffic day by day. The people who would come into the village ordinarily to support the different types of trade do not come any more.

I do not think there is any legislation yet that would permit the publican to go into the country with his wares, but mind you he would feel like doing it at the moment if he could only get the necessary permission to do so. He is suffering as a result of being deprived of the traffic which the market day of old brought to the town or village. The weekly shopping day which the housewife spent in the town when she came in her horse and cart or in her ass and cart or, better still, in her motor car, is over. It has become no longer necessary because the provisions are brought to her door. It is a serious situation for those towns to which the surplus farm labour could move in order to take such jobs as apprentices, assistants in shops and so forth.

I would appeal to the Minister seriously to consider the co-ordinating of the different Departments for the purpose of solving this problem. The different Departments should coordinate in sponsoring industries to support these towns. The appointment of some person by the Government to undertake that work of co-ordination is something which the Minister should consider. If he is not to have a Minister responsible for the Gaeltacht he should at least have an active Parliamentary Secretary who would coordinate all the Departments concerned in providing an industry for these areas. I would appeal to him seriously to consider this.

Those of us who live on the western seaboard do not find any serious efforts being made to maintain the increasing population which these areas would have if the people were not compelled to seek employment elsewhere. Deputy Giles deplored the necessity for these people to go into industries in Dublin and other cities but if they do not find employment in those cities they should at least find it in their own villages. The only alternative is that they cross the Channel and find employment in England or in some of the industrial towns abroad where higher wages exist.

I do not want to hold up the House much longer but I should like to say something about this question of An Tóstal which has been discussed by most speakers here. My opinion and hope when An Tóstal was first organised was that it eventually would become an occasion for reunion among our peoples scattered in different corners of the earth—Ireland at Home. I believe that if the purpose for which it was organised were strictly pursued— and I believe we are slipping from that purpose which we displayed in the first year of An Tóstal—it would become an occasion for reunion among our exiles who are yet the best tourists we can have. If the spirit of rivalry which existed in most of our areas in the first year were properly maintained and persisted in, our people abroad would soon find it a suitable occasion on which to take their holidays at home and renew that spirit of friendship and comradeship which is completely lacking since they left home.

Nobody who experienced anything of the spirit of reunion which exists on the occasion of St. Patrick's Night in New York would fail to realise in some way the importance of having a reunion at home of all our exiles. If they thought others were coming at the same time and that enjoyable functions were being organised to celebrate their coming, thousands would make it the occasion of a visit to their native land in order to renew the spirit of friendship and homely feeling which they have not experienced since they said good-bye to their neighbours and friends.

I think that if we could revive the spirit of An Tóstal on those lines it would become the success visualised when it was first organised. Tourists from other countries will come to spend their holiday here during the peak of the season, but if we succeeded in developing An Tóstal along the lines of Ireland at Home we would also succeed in attracting these tourists at that particular time and we would then be serving the dual purpose which was visualised by those who organised that festival. I think the Minister should appeal to Bord Fáilte and the other tourist organisations, in spite of criticism, to maintain the spirit of An Tóstal and persist along the lines of its initial year until the festival has passed its teething stage, which will not be for a long time to come.

If An Tóstal had passed that stage I think it would be bound to become an outstanding success and that it would run itself efficiently. Somebody has said that An Tóstal was not worth the trouble, but I think that if it had never attracted anybody from outside, the initial effort did a wonderful lot of good in so far as it improved the appearance of our towns and villages and set our people doing something to improve their homes.

There is a third aspect of a successfully established An Tóstal which is no less important than the other ones. I feel sure that the Minister will consider it on those lines and try to maintain the objects for which An Tóstal was organised in the first instance. I believe there is yet time to recapture the spirit and the hopes of those who set about making that festival a success, the type of festival visualised by those who inaugurated it.

I have nothing further to say except to endorse what previous speakers have said about tourism. In short, I think the main argument boils down to the improvement of our roads, not merely our main roads but also our second- and third-class roads. These are not the responsibility of the local authorities. They may never be, but they should be repaired systematically and a good deal more attention should be paid to them particularly in the tourist centres. Vehicular traffic is absolutely essential even for those who wish to travel within a small radius of their headquarters. I endorse what other speakers have said with regard to the importance of spending more money on these roads and paying more attention to their repair and maintenance. Roads are one of the first essentials required by the tourist, particularly in the seaside resorts.

Mr. McQuillan

It is inevitable in this debate that there should be repetition. In view of the importance of the matters that come under the Minister's control repetition is necessary in order to emphasise matters of particular importance and I would like to comment, first of all, on one of the aspects raised by Deputy Brennan.

What is the policy of this Government with regard to the development of the western areas? Since 1948 we have had various efforts made by successive Governments to remedy the emigration problem and solve unemployment in these areas. With all due respect to the Governments concerned, they were merely tinkering with the problems. The latest effort to bring industrial development to the West was the setting up of An Foras Tionscal. I challenge contradiction when I say that little or no progress has been made by that particular body. If we examine the work of An Foras Tionscal with regard to a fall in the unemployment figures, the establishment of more factories and the reduction of emigration, we can only come to the conclusion that it has been a failure.

There is one thing always trotted out here; we must go slowly; we must creep before we walk. This country has never got up off its knees for the last 30 years. As far as the people in the West are concerned, they have no illusions that this, or any other Government in the near future, will come to their rescue. There was a motion debated here in the name of Deputy Maguire and in my name, and the views of certain members were disclosed. Some speakers made no bones about it: emigration was one of the means by which unemployment could be solved.

I believe that Deputy Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, really believed that certain sections of the Undeveloped Areas Act, if implemented, would bring great benefit to towns and villages in the West of Ireland. The idea was to entice industrialists to the more neglected areas. I emphasise the word "entice". The idea was to offer an inducement so that industries would be established in places like Galway, Sligo, Donegal, West Cork, Kerry, Clare and so forth. The House commended the Minister for his efforts at the time.

What do we find? When this particular section came under the scrutiny of the Department there was no question of giving an inducement to an industrialist to go to the West of Ireland: the industrialist had to prove that he would be at a loss if he went to the West of Ireland. What was passed here was reversed in its interpretation once it left this Chamber. If any Deputy doubts what I am saying I shall be only too glad to accompany him to the offices of An Foras Tionscal and go over there some of the projects which have been submitted time and time again by those interested in getting industries into the small towns in the West.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is responsible for departmental decisions. The Deputy cannot discuss or criticise officials.

Mr. McQuillan

I am criticising the Minister for allowing this position to obtain. I know that his predecessor in office was dissatisfied with that interpretation and intended to take the necessary steps to ensure that the spirit of the act, as adumbrated by this House, would be properly interpreted. Of course, if any useful or major industry comes into this country there is little talk about siting that industry in the undeveloped areas. Immediately the question arises of the right of the individual and people are only too delighted to allow it into Dublin.

There is one point we should all bear in mind. The City and County of Dublin have 30 representatives here. The West of Ireland sends 25 Deputies. There is the explanation why more industrial development takes place in Dublin than anywhere else. It is only natural that every Deputy should try to get industrial projects for his own constituency. Time has proved that Dublin directs everything of importance as far as the country is concerned. We had to begin with the Tolka River in order to get compensation for unfortunate farmers along the Shannon.

The present Minister will need great determination to resist the pressure that will be brought to bear on him in connection with the siting of different industries. I believe he has the ability to do a good job in his Department. I also believe that his road is a pretty hard one but I hope he will not take what I have to say in this debate in a sense of personal criticism. The feeling of impatience that I have had for many years has made me feel very frustrated and I know that many of the younger men, among the people who sent me into this House originally in 1948, have left this country in utter disgust in the intervening years.

The Minister will have to get a dynamic policy if he is to make any impression on the minds of the people who live in the undeveloped areas. There is a mental condition which has to be changed, and that will be as hard to deal with as physical conditions because the feeling of hopelessness is there and the belief that all Parties are the same, that all Parties will promise the sun, moon and stars and that afterwards little is done. That feeling is there, deep in the hearts of the people in the western areas.

I do not think we should be frightened by the idea of having State interference or greater State aid given in the West. Many of our most useful industries to-day are under the control of the State or semi-State bodies and if we compare the position of Foras Tionscal and the position that obtains even in the Six Counties, we can see how much more attractive the conditions are in the Six Counties for industrial development than they are in the West of Ireland. The authorities there and the British authorities are prepared to go to the extent of erecting factories and renting factories to industrial concerns in the Six Counties. Instead of that you have the mentality displayed here with regard to this portion of Ireland that the industrial people have to prove a loss if they are to get the substantial aid which is necessary for them going into the West of Ireland. I will not say any more at this stage on that particular matter of the neglect of the West of Ireland.

There is another point, and here I welcome the new outlook that has been displayed in connection with what can be one of our most important industries in the future, that is the distilling industry. I want to congratulate the Minister for the interest he has taken in seeing that a blended whiskey is produced here. It is premature at this stage to say much about the project. I want to emphasise that the distilling industry depends on the land and everything in connection with the finished product, whiskey, comes from and is made within the country. I would not like to think that for the sake of obtaining a rather attractive market in the near future we would take any steps that might damage our long-term prospects. I understand that in connection with this blended whiskey there is an intention to import portion of the blend from outside this State. I understand that the Revenue Commissioners have consulted with the distillers on the question of changing the interpretation of Irish whiskey to include a product from the Six Counties. I think that we have sufficient pot-still whiskey here and sufficient skill to produce the blend without going outside our own jurisdiction.

I want the Minister to understand that there will be a strong objection on the part of people outside this House, and I certainly will take every possible opportunity to object in this House, if I find that a decision has been made or is about to be made to import a pot-still whiskey into this country to be utilised in the final blend. I do not care what proportion of it may be used, whether it is .1 per cent. or anything else. I want to make it clear if we can import pot-still whiskey from outside the Twenty-Six County area, it is just as easy to import it from Scotland as from the Six Counties.

I do not want to be taken as objecting to co-operating with the Six Counties in this matter. I would prefer that we had the Six Counties in with us and that we could all work as a unit then, but as it stands there is nothing to prevent whiskey outside the 32 Counties being brought into the Six Counties and sent down here then as an alleged Irish product. I shall not go any deeper into it at the moment, but I want to sound that warning to the Minister that I personally hope that no decision has been taken or will be taken to bring in portion of this blend. God knows there is no shortage of the commodity here in the country at the present time, and the facilities are available to carry out further distillation if it is considered desirable. It would be a tragic thing in the beginning to get off on the wrong foot with something that can be and I believe probably will be in the future our second greatest industry outside the cattle trade.

In his opening statement the Minister referred to the working of the E.S.B., and in his speech he referred to a sum of £84,000 which was provided in the Estimates for 1954-55 for the repayment of advances for rural electrification and said that it is intended in the future that the E.S.B. will meet the costs of this development from its own resources.

I think it is agreed by all Parties and individuals in this House that rural electrification is possibly the most important development that has come in rural Ireland since freedom was achieved in this part of the country. I do not think this House or the people outside it would tolerate for a moment the suggestion that there should be a slow-down on the development of rural electrification. I do not think we should be satisfied even with the actual rate of progress itself. We should never be satisfied on anything like that if there is a chance to increase the progress or to increase the number of areas that will be brought in each year.

I do not like that move in connection with the £84,000. It is all right to say the E.S.B. is a flourishing concern. No excuse must be given to them to slack or to slow down. I think rural Deputies will agree with me when I say it is almost unbelievable the change in outlook that is brought about where the rural electrification service has been provided. It is one of our few hopes for the future as far as the rural areas are concerned.

There is a hesitancy in certain localities in regard to the acceptance of this service and the present rate of progress, good as some Deputies think it is, could be stepped up if the E.S.B. were willing to go into an area without waiting for this high percentage of acceptance. Somebody mentioned here to-day that nothing succeeds like success. If the E.S.B. went in in areas with 10 to 15 per cent. less acceptance, once the people saw their neighbours accepting this service there would be a rush on their parts to accept it.

There are, of course, several snags arising from day to day in connection with that service. One of the snags—and it is a hardship on many people—is where you have pockets, small areas, which do not actually fit into the mapped-out sections for rural electrification. Consequently, an extra service charge has to be imposed on the people who live in those pocket areas outside. It is an unfortunate position for these people that just because they are unlucky enough to live half a mile or three-quarters of a mile away from the end of the area where the service is being supplied, they must pay a very heavy charge to get the service.

Under the Constitution we are all equal and entitled to the same benefits. There is no enticement or encouragement to these people to take the service, and very often the families concerned are poor people who can ill afford the extra charge. I see no reason why that sum of £84,000, or a similar sum, could not be used as a fund to subsidise the extra service charge imposed on those people who live in those outside areas. This is a matter that has been discussed time and again in this House and I find in that respect that as each year passes nothing is being done to meet the hardship that is imposed on these unfortunate people.

One other point I would like to mention in connection with the E.S.B. is a slight criticism, if you like. They have gone in in a big way for the sale of electrical equipment, and I am glad to see a sales organisation established in the E.S.B. in the same way as we have a sales organisation set up now in Bord na Móna that will supply turf to people's houses. I find that the E.S.B. are acting as agents to sell many items of equipment that are imported. I have no objection in the world to the E.S.B. selling what they manufacture here, or what is manufactured here, but if we allow the E.S.B. to act as agents for the importation of many of the utensils and much of the equipment that is being used in houses, we are going to encourage them to put off the day when they will manufacture these things themselves.

I think the E.S.B.'s sales organisation should be more or less confined to the sales of whatever is produced in Ireland, and that they certainly should not set the example of acting as import agents when they should be taking all possible steps to establish a situation here whereby those items they import would be manufactured in Ireland. As long as they are allowed to continue that, the temptation is there to think little about opening factories or industrial establishments here for the production of this equipment and household requirements.

Let me refer now to An Tóstal. Last year An Bord Fáilte or Fógra Fáilte— I do not know which; I can never make up my mind who is running this business at all — advertised the Tóstal extensively in the daily Press. In their advertising campaign they drew attention to what was happening in Dublin. In other words, they were asking all Ireland to come up to Dublin, and at the same time we had the same wise people asking provincial towns to run Tóstal in the country. I am informed that this Dublin Tóstal Council had to pack up because there was no money made available by the Dublin business people. It is not my affair to criticise the Dublin business people—they know their business far better than I know it—but although they found it was not a wise proposition to keep this Dublin Tóstal going, they found, at any rate, that they will still get publicity for Dublin at the expense of the rural areas because either An Bord Fáilte or Fógra Fáilte will now have to bear the full cost of publicity for the Dublin Tóstal where normally this should be borne by the Dublin citizens and the Dublin business people who are going to make the biggest profit out of it. Instead of that, this House has placed funds at the disposal of An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte.

Money that has been raised in taxation on people in rural areas as well as on people in Dublin is now about to be devoted to the benefit of the Dublin people. I have no objection in the world to Dublin getting everything it can, but I think the Dublin businessmen were wise when they wound up the Dublin Tóstal and got, instead, An Bord Fáilte to carry the cost of what the Dublin Tóstal should be carrying, thus placing the burden not alone on the citizens of Dublin but also on the people of rural Ireland.

I want to deal now with something that I do not think has been raised in this House yet. I am sure a lot of worthy Deputies will think I should have my head examined or that I should not be in this House for making this suggestion. Most Deputies are aware of the statement made by a very prominent Irishman that there is a great danger of Ireland becoming a crannóg perched in solitary aloofness in the Atlantic. I am inclined to agree with that viewpoint except for the fact that we have so many emigrants and we still have some contact on that basis. However, I feel myself that we are gradually losing touch with the tremendous developments that are taking place in the world outside us. For centuries we have been held down in this country, bound in chains, by alien oppressors. Those were the oppressors who faced our people with bullets, who destroyed our forests and who crushed our industries, such as they were. The day of that oppressor has gone. The chains of bondage have been smashed—at least they have been smashed in the Twenty-Six Counties— and we now have the privilege of government by our own elected representatives.

On the question of the revival of the industries which were crushed and on the question of the establishment of new industries, I can only say that commendable efforts have been made in that regard over the past 30 years by different Governments—commendable when you take into consideration some of the great difficulties which they have had to face. However, 30 years have elapsed and I think that to-day we lag far behind other countries of our size, far behind other countries with less than our mineral resources. We have the excuse that we are severly handicapped by lack of power and lack of suitable raw materials to get a great industrial drive under way. Whether we like it or not, we are at least 100 years behind the British to-day in industrial development.

Britain achieved her high place in the industrial sphere mainly, I believe, because she had coal deposits. She had the means of creating power and energy. The power, the energy which is so necessary for industrial development is, to a small degree, being provided here in Ireland by our hydro-electric development schemes and, to a still lesser extent, by our recent development of our peat resources but we still depend to a very large extent on the importation of fuel from abroad to create or develop energy and we shall be depending on it for many years to come. Nobody in his senses will, I hope, suggest that the power given by our hydro-electric schemes and the power that is got from our bogs will be sufficient to meet the industrial development which we all visualise should take place. It behoves us, therefore, to look for an alternative source of power and energy. While we jog along here, content with the progress of Bord na Móna and the E.S.B., while we are content at least once a year to pat those companies on the back for being able to show a profit or for being able at long last to show that they are no longer in need of subsidies—while we are content to allow our development to move along slowly—other countries are going ahead by leaps and bounds.

In spite of what I should describe as her still very large coal deposits, Britain has decided to go ahead with plans for the development of nuclear power. She is going ahead with plans for the development of nuclear power on a breath-taking scale. In my view, we should give serious consideration to the thought that if Britain can jump still further ahead of us in the next few years by her utilisation of nuclear power then Ireland is doomed to failure for all time because the already overwhelming weight of British industrial capacity will smother her completely. It is quite evident to anybody who has taken the trouble to read the papers that Britain is going all-out on an inspiring programme of harnessing nuclear power so that, in the near future, she will reach new heights of industrial development and will once more become—in her own mind, at any rate—the leader of the nations which are at the moment highly skilled in industry. She intends to go ahead with this development herself and, at the same time, continue to export her coal to nations such as Ireland, retaining to herself the benefits to be derived from the development of nuclear power. I believe we are living in a new era and we should march into it eagerly and courageously, resolved to put our own nation on top.

I was listening recently to a B.B.C. news item in which it was reported that Nehru announced recently to the Indian National Assembly that by the end of next year India will have two nuclear reactors. This will be carried out in India without the benefit of British scientists, without their aid and without money from Britain. If India, which so recently achieved its freedom, can have courage to go ahead with schemes like this, why cannot we, whose history resembles that of India so much, emulate her example? As I have said, we are like India in many ways in our political history. We are also like India in the fact that we have no resources of coal or means of creating energy. We are both in the same boat in that regard, but India seized the opportunity to close the gap between herself and more fortunate nations.

India is not the only country that will take advantage of this new era. Other countries have alerted themselves to the wonderful possibilities that lie ahead. Practically every country in Europe is making plans at present for the installation of nuclear power reactors. I believe this Government should give immediate attention to the startling developments which have taken place in recent years in respect to nuclear power for peaceful purposes. A timid, cautious approach now will be a cause of regret in years to come.

America has proved herself a great friend to us in the past. We should approach the American Government for technical assistance, and financial help, if necessary, in order to go ahead with the construction of one nuclear power station or reactor.

This nation has always shown that its intentions are peaceful. We have set an example to other nations by adopting a strict attitude of neutrality in the past. We have deplored wars and have shown our peaceful intentions. Some people will say that we could not do anything else, that, if we were as strong as the big nations, probably we would be just as greedy as they have proved themselves to be. I do not believe that. I believe that the Irish people could never turn into what we have very close to us, men who would go to extremes to build an empire. I believe that the Irish people have a very charitable outlook and would be anything but oppressors of their neighbours or of those who would ask them for help.

In one way it is sad to think that this wonderful means of developing power has been discovered as a result of the recent terrible war. Possibly, we can look on it in this way that out of evil cometh good. We should not lag behind. We should set our mind to the future and play our part, however small, in setting an example by the utilisation of this splendid new source of power for peaceful means and for peaceful uses alone.

Mr. Corry

There are a few matters with which I wish to deal on this Estimate. I regret that matters important to counties are made political pawns. I allude to the position as regards Cork airport. I have heard every Cork Deputy speaking here on the subject of an airport for Cork. I would like to take this back a few years. I say that the responsibility for the fact that there is not an airport in Cork lies with the parish pump minds of the Cork Deputies. Experts from the Minister's Department went down to Cork County a few years ago to select a suitable site for an airport. They selected two sites, one at a place called Farmer's Cross and another at Midleton. This State went to the trouble of sending experts from the Meteorological Department to Cork during the course of a period of two or three years. A report was furnished to the Department as a result of that investigation and, as the then Minister stated in the House, Farmer's Cross was ruled out due to the prevalence of fog. That was the position four years ago. Then the question of a site for an airport in Cork was turned into a political gamble and has continued as a political gamble ever since.

What is wrong with a Department which, having expended public money on sending experts to Cork for two or three years for meteorological observations and getting back a decision from them, ignores that decision and goes nosing around looking to see into which area the political plum can best be thrown to produce results? And nothing is done. I heard six or seven Deputies speaking one after the other looking for this airport in Cork. I may be the only Deputy to speak here from the area chosen by the Department as the site for that airport, but I consider that one man with a good case is worth ten men with bad cases and I am demanding from the Minister that the recommendations of his Department be now put into force and that the airport be established in Midleton without any further delay. I can see no justification for the manoeuvring that is going on in the Minister's Department in connection with this. I asked a question here of the Minister's predecessor some two years ago. He told me a couple of thousand pounds had been spent on his gentlemen who went down there to make those observations.

If public money is being expended in an examination as between two sites and a decision is arrived at that one site is useless on account of fog but that the other is all right, the next thing the people expect is some action, some decision, some work. In regard to this airport, and on behalf of my constituents in East Cork, I am demanding that action now. If the Minister is aware of any further investigations carried on since, I want to know why they were carried out and I want to know the amount of public money expended on those investigations. This is taxpayers' money we are talking about. Every penny of public money spent on sending those officials from the Department to poke around the holes and corners of Cork to find out which site would be the more suitable is taxpayers' money, and the public are entitled to know, when the investigation is completed and the Minister announces the result, how that money was spent. On behalf of my constituents here to-night I am demanding that action be taken and let there be no more about it.

Deputy Giles talked here to-night about the herd and the man and the dog, and I feel sure Deputy Giles now realises that he is tied to the Party with the herd and the man and the dog.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Corry

Deputy Giles spoke for a long time to-night about the unfortunate farmer. I wonder does Deputy Giles recall the statement made by his Minister on the 23rd March in his introduction to this Estimate, as reported at column 519, Vol. 149 of the Official Report, as follows:—

"Taking into account the Supplementary Estimate for 1954-55, the reduction in the food subsidies for the year 1955-56 amounts to £1,053,000. As explained by the Minister for Finance, when presenting the Vote on Account for 1955-56, the decrease in the food subsidies arises from the reduced prices for home-grown wheat which have been fixed by the Government."

So that from those people whom Deputy Giles represents here the Minister claims he is extracting the sum of £1,053,000. And he goes further than that because while he tells them they will have cheaper wheat he tells them something else also as follows:—

"Another factor contributing to the reduction is that it is anticipated that the flour millers will obtain increased receipts from the sales of flour offals."

In plain language you get less for your wheat and pay more for your bran and pollard and then you are going to produce cheap bacon. That is the statement made here by the Minister. The price of foreign pollard to-day is in the region of £26 a ton. It is a little more than a lot of the farmers got for their wheat.

If the Minister's policy is proceeded with, the farmers will be well advised to keep the whole wheat, dry it themselves and feed it to their pigs rather than sell it to the mills and buy back the skin for more than they get for the whole wheat. That will pay them better than buying the milo maize muck which the Minister for Agriculture announced to-day will cost £20 per ton. Of course, anything is good enough for the Irish farmer now. Deputy Giles complained to-day that the land is going back to the herd and the dog; he must realise that this is the Government of the herd, the dog and the bullock, to say nothing of unemployment on the land.

Mr. Deering

There is no employment content in wheat.

Mr. Corry

Would the child from the Wicklow glens keep quiet for a little bit? He will get his turn later. Would the present Minister for Industry and Commerce have the neck to turn to any other industrialist here and tell him he intended to reduce the price of his commodities by 12½ per cent.?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Minister deal with the price of agricultural commodities?

Mr. Corry

The Minister deals with the flour subsidy.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister dealt with the flour subsidy in an entirely different context.

Mr. Norton

That is a matter for the Minister for Agriculture.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is dealing with the price of grain produced by the farmer.

Mr. Corry

I am merely dealing with it in the context that I saw a question addressed to the Minister for Agriculture to-day—if it is sauce for the goose it is sauce for the gander——

Mrs. O'Carroll

Who is the gander?

Mr. Corry

—asking if it was true that the price of fertilisers in Northern Ireland was £6 per ton less than on this side of the Border. If the Irish farmer has to pay £6 a ton more for his fertilisers, I suggest to the Minister and to his Government that the same principle should obtain as that stated here by him:—

"Notwithstanding the reduction in the price, the amount per ton paid for Irish wheat is in excess of the price at which foreign wheat can be imported."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will now pass from that.

Mr. Corry

I am quoting the Minister's own statement on this Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is taking a statement made by the Minister out of its context. The Deputy will not proceed along that line. The Deputy is making a speech on agricultural production. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has no responsibility whatsoever for that. There is a Minister who has responsibility. The Deputy will please proceed now to deal with the Estimate before the House and with nothing else.

Mr. James Tully

Talk about the airport.

Mr. Corry

I want to know from the Minister will he make available to the largest industrialist here the raw material needed for his production at the same price at which it can be obtained elsewhere?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will not proceed along that line. I have warned him already. I will have to ask him to resume his seat if he insists on defying the Chair.

Mr. Corry

I will not go any further than that.

Mr. Norton

It looks as if the Deputy will not have an audience for long if he does.

Mr. Corry

I will have an audience from the Minister while the Minister is there. I can guarantee that. I want to know from the Minister when will the report on the Irish Sheet Mills in Haulbowline, compiled by the Industrial Development Authority and received in his Department, be published?

Mr. McGrath

That is a six mark question.

Mr. Corry

That is the Minister's baby. I asked a colleague of the Minister's, who sat over there for three and a half long years, some 18 questions in relation to the sheet mill in Haulbowline. At the outset I was told that it was a very serious matter and needed consideration. Later on somebody was found to hold the baby. I was told it had been referred to the Industrial Development Authority. For two and a half years I was told that. A change of Government came and the erection of the sheet mill was proceeded with; and I want to know now from the Minister when will that sheet mill go into production? We hear a good deal of talk about emigration. Here is a Labour Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. O'Leary

That is what is worrying the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

Here is a Labour Minister for Industry and Commerce. I have been assured by people competent to judge that the total complement of employment between the sheet mill and the tin-plate mill in Haulbowline—portion of the machinery for which is already there—will be somewhere in the region of 1,300 men. There is a potential saving on emigration of some 600 or 700 men. When will the Labour Minister get to work on it?

Mr. Norton

Whoever told the Deputy that knew he was soft-headed.

Mr. Corry

They put a blindfold on the Minister for fear he would see the pier.

Mr. McGrath

It was the Minister's previous Government that did away with the chassis factory.

Mr. Corry

When will we get results? When will all these things be done? These are matters seriously affecting my constituents.

Mr. Norton

The Deputy is doing his best to kill the steel mill now.

Mr. Corry

These are matters affecting my constituents. If the Minister thinks it is his duty to revenge my mentioning them here by trying to kill them, let him try it.

Mr. McGrath

The Minister's remark was a nasty one.

Mr. Spring

The Minister is deepening Cork harbour for the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

I suggest to the Minister that he has a duty in this respect. He has a duty to Labour. He has a duty to the workers who are looking for employment in Haulbowline. I want to ensure that that duty is carried out. Surely it is within the Minister's power to tell this industry, which was ready to go into the production of sheet steel last May, when the Government was changed, to go ahead this May. Twelve months is long enough for the new Government to go on its honeymoon. Men are waiting for work. When will the Minister give it to them? We hear appeals from all quarters in this House in relation to providing employment. We are looking for work for our own men. We are endeavouring to find employment for them, any kind of employment, which will prevent them leaving our shores. The Minister need only go down to the Library and take the trouble that I took and he will find that over £2,000,000 worth of tinplate comes into the country each year. It is many a year—it was in 1939—since portions of that tinplate mill were landed at Haulbowline. I am asking the Minister seriously to get to work on this problem and to get his Department to work on it and for Heaven's sake to make his mind up about it. That is a simple thing. If the Minister gives the word to-morrow there will be a couple of hundred men working there in a fortnight, and within 12 to 18 months the full 1,300 will be working, producing the £2,000,000 worth of tinplate that should be, but is not, produced in this country.

The Minister knows what happened during the emergency? Does not the Minister know that every tin can that John Bull sent over to this country had to go back full or, if it did not, you would not get another tin can? Is not this the time that we should be moving ahead? Is not this the period during which preparations should be made for whatever is coming in this world? Does the Minister not know that but for Deputy Lemass establishing that industry in 1939 there would be no iron to shoe a horse in this country during the emergency period? The Minister has a breathing-space now — is he going to take advantage of it or is he going to turn back along the line of the old policy and put the matter in abeyance?

Those are the matters that I am interested in, and in which I have reason to be interested. I asked the Minister to-day about certain charges that are being made by Cork Harbour Commissioners — charges that were sanctioned by his Department, and I am not concerned what Government was there, or who sanctioned them. You have 2/9?d. charged per ton for rock phosphate coming into Cork as against 1/4 in Dublin.

I went to the trouble of going back to the time when I was negotiating for that industry and what did I find? In December, 1950, when I was carrying out negotiations with the company to start an artificial manure factory in Cobh and came up here with my case, the Minister did nothing. Mark you, the case was a strong one. The case was that under the offer of the Cork Harbour Commissioners they would collect £24,750 in harbour dues on 180,000 tons of rock phosphate. We read a lot about decentralisation and the reasons for it, but all that gentleman would have to do was to start his factory in Dublin instead of Cork and he would save £12,750, the difference in harbour dues between Cork and Dublin. We lost the industry on account of that. This gentleman put it to me as a business man and said: "Do you think I can make that much profit that I can afford to pay £12,750 more to the Cork Harbour Commissioners than I would pay to the Dublin Harbour Board?"

People wonder, as Deputy McQuillan here to-night wondered, why these industries are not decentralised. These are some of the reasons—because the old man of the sea established in Cork Harbour has his tentacles out like an octopus grabbing and seeking all he can devour.

Mr. Norton

This is a matter for the local harbour commissioners. I have nothing to do with it.

Mr. Corry

I beg the Minister's pardon.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister has no responsibility I do not see how it can be discussed on this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

I suggest the Minister has every responsibility. It is all very well to sit back and say: "I have no responsibility," and the Government washes its paws like Pontius Pilate. I heard Deputy McQuillan here to-night on the same thing, complaining of the interpretation that was put on certain clauses in an Act under which the West suffered. I say to the Minister that it was the responsibility of the Minister in 1950 to be in here on the following week with a Bill to remedy that condition of affairs. Does the Minister not think that the time of this House would be better occupied with that than with what was under discussion for two hours here this evening, the Gaming Bill? That is something that would mean employment in this country for Irish people. Yet the Minister says he has no responsibility.

Mr. Norton

This is a local row between the Deputy and Deputy McGrath.

Mr. Corry

The Minister has responsibility while he is sitting there, and will have to live up to it whether he likes it or not. He will have to face up to the position of affairs that exists. The Minister is responsible, as the Minister for Finance stated, for a sum of £400,000 that was given for the development of Cork Harbour and which under false pretences, is being spent on the quays of Cork City, 14 miles from the inner bounds of the harbour above on the River Lee. Does the Minister realise that responsibility? He was responsible for the giving of the money. The distance from the inner boundary of the harbour, which is at Monkstown, to where this money is expended is 14 miles up the River Lee. And the Minister is quite satisfied.

Within the next few months the men will be working in the oil refinery in Aghada. Does the Minister realise that the main source of workers for that refinery will be from Passage and Cobh? Does the Minister realise that the only landing place available to them at Aghada has a big notice up in front of it from the Harbour Board: "This pier is dangerous" and that of the 24 steps up to it from the water's edge there are only two standing? And the Minister is not responsible. I think if somebody said that he had no sense of responsibility he would be nearer the mark.

Mr. Norton

Might I put this submission to you? These are all matters which come within the jurisdiction of the Cork Harbour Commissioners who have complete power in these matters.

How the money is expended is again a matter for the Cork Harbour Commissioners. Deputy Corry is asking the House to believe that the Cork Harbour Commissioners are, to use his own language, fraudulently expending money for another purpose. I think that charge ought not to be allowed to pass unchallenged in the House where the Cork Harbour Commissioners have no representation. If Deputy Corry has a quarrel with the Cork Harbour Commissioners, he ought to have his quarrel on the spot where those whose honesty and integrity are being impugned will have an opportunity of replying. It is not fair that this House should be used for the purpose of blackguarding them as they are being blackguarded now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has already stated that he has no responsibility in this matter. In this House the Minister's word has always been accepted when a statement of that kind has been made and, in the circumstances, I cannot see how the Deputy can continue to debate this matter.

Mr. Corry

I do not wish to doubt the Minister's word at all. I suggest to the Minister that he was responsible for handing over £400,000; in reply to my question to-day I was told that £360,000 was to be spent on the turntable in the quays of Cork and the remaining £70,000 was to be spent in the extension of Tivoli. Before the Dáil adjourned I asked the Minister if he would tell me what were the outer and inner boundaries of Cork harbour. He was kind enough to inform me of the authorities where I would find my information. Did the Minister examine those authorities before he gave £360,000 for the development of a harbour with the knowledge that the money was not being spent within that harbour? That is my case.

I hold that within the next few months the Minister will have an opportunity of at least partially remedying that condition of affairs, the condition of affairs under which members of an authority in this country come along, sit there and when the manager says: "There is very serious extra expenditure here and I will have to put extra dues on something to meet that expenditure," the first member of the board says: "You are not going to put it on my coal"; the next member says: "You are not going to put it on my wheat", and so on, and all that is left to tax is the fellow who is not there. You have no representative of the largest industry in the country there; there is no representative of the farmer there. That is what I am complaining of to the Minister, and he has an opportunity within the next couple of months of remedying that condition of affairs, of seeing that there will be representatives of the harbour on the Cork Harbour Board and not representatives of the River Lee.

These are the things which in my opinion are very gravely responsible for the fact that there are no industries in the Cobh area. The industry of which I spoke would give employment to at least 100 men, that is, the artificial manure industry that was driven out by the action of those authorities. You have a worse position still. The reply I got on that occasion was that the money had to be found somewhere to run the harbour. Is the Minister aware that one shipping company alone gets a reduction of over £2,000 a year in dues from that harbour board and that every time that company has a ship to be repaired it is sent over to the Continent or to John Bull though Rushebrooke Dockyard is there and workers are there looking for work?

What action is the Minister going to take about that? Surely he has the same authority over the Cork Harbour Board that the Minister for Local Government has over a county council and surely when matters of that description are brought to his notice, it is his duty to have them investigated? It is only last year that proposals for the dredging of Cork Harbour, to enable liners to come into the inner harbour and the removal of what is known as the Pinnacle Rock, were put up to the Minister's Department for the sum of £75,000. The Minister's Department offered £50,000 and the work was not done. Why was not some of the £400,000 devoted to that so as to enable liners to come into the inner harbour? Surely that would be a more appropriate place to spend that money than spending it above on the quays of the River Lee?

I do not know what action the Minister is going to take but I promise the Minister one thing—and it might be a lead to Deputy McQuillan and other Deputies—that if he does not bring in an amending Bill then I will and I will flog them into that Lobby on one side or the other. These are the serious matters affecting the principal town in my constituency. When the Minister was there I was anxious to show him the town pier and to draw his attention to its condition. The extraordinary thing was that, though everybody who ever went over to Irish Steel, Ltd., left from the town pier, the Minister did not leave from the town pier: they took good care to shuffle him away from the town pier when he was coming and when he was going. He landed at another pier. As I have already said, 700 men use that pier every day. In his reply to-day the Minister told me that extensive repairs were carried out to it. It has been converted into a boat slip. Does the Minister know what that means? That is where 700 men have to go out on to the launch at 12 o'clock in the night and the return shift coming off at 1.30 a.m. have to come back there in the middle of the night—and £360,000 is being devoted to the development of Cork harbour above at the quays of Cork City.

Mr. O'Leary

Deputy McGrath wants it there.

Mr. Corry

Those are the facts. I am not looking for anything but ordinary justice for the people I represent—and I am going to get it and let the Minister be in no doubt but that I will get it. Honestly, I do not know the reason for this deadness in the Department of Industry and Commerce once a mixum-gatherum Government comes in until it goes out again.

Mr. Glynn

How long has it existed?

Mr. Corry

How long, how long, how long? It lasted three and a half years the last time. Deputy Giles spoke to us about making haste slowly. I think they are hastening slowly backwards—backwards. I should like to congratulate the Minister on one thing and I am glad that I have one thing on which I can congratulate him. I refer to his trip down the Shannon and the activity of C.I.E. in putting a boat on the Shannon for cruising. I am glad to see that development. I wonder if I could induce the Minister to come with me next Sunday and take a ramble up the Blackwater? I can assure him that when he would see the beauties of the Blackwater he would say that the Shannon is not a patch on it—and we would get rid of that famous bridge down there and perhaps he could induce C.I.E. to put a pleasure boat upon the Blackwater. There were pleasure boats and yachts there before. In fact, the Duke of Devonshire cut a special canal up into Lismore, which the Minister's colleague is now blocking with a new bridge.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of the bridge does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

There is one other matter which I wish to mention. There are oil-bunkering facilities in Haulbowline. Cork port is losing a certain amount of trade by reason of the fact that these oil-bunkering facilities are not put in operation.

Efforts were made by the Minister's Department to get some firm to take it, but they were not successful. I now make a suggestion to the Minister in that regard. Whether or not he will help me I do not know, but I make this suggestion in all earnestness. I suggest to the Minister that he should now hand those oil-bunkering facilities over to Irish Steel, Limited. The brains that brought Irish Steel, Limited, from a bankrupt concern to a commercial success could also make a commercial success of the oil-bunkering. I put that suggestion now to the Minister for what it is worth. If he takes my advice, at least he will have something there: he can say "I did it". The day I met the Minister he was down opening a corrugated-iron shop his predecessor had fixed up. I do not like to see that at all. I should like the Minister to have some head-stone so that when he is gone we can say: "Norton did that".

Mr. O'Leary

That will happen.

Mr. Corry

It would be well to be able to say that. If he will go ahead now and take the advice I have given him here to-night—and it is all good advice—he will be the most popular man down in Cobh. Do not bother about the city fellows, because they are not worth minding.

Mr. James Tully

It is easily known that the Lord Mayor of Cork is not here. He went out before Deputy Corry started.

Mr. Corry

He remained here by my side for a long time. Eventually, I told him to go as I was going to have a row with the Minister in regard to these matters. Will the Minister consider the position of a town the size of Cobh and the condition of its harbour? Cobh is a town which sees every day not an advance in facilities but a going backwards. The position there at the moment is something like what one would expect to see at a backward African port. Is it not time that things were taken in hand and an improvement effected? Instead of spending that £70,000 on the Tivoli reclamation——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has said this on more than one occasion.

Mr. Corry

Instead of spending that there, if it were spent entirely on the extension of the deep water quay at Cobh, liners could come in there and discharge passengers without tenders being required. That could be done with the expenditure of some of that £400,000, which is a small sum of money. That is the position. Is it any wonder that the citizens of Cobh feel sore because of what is being done to them when they know that the Department of Industry and Commerce is responsible for all of that?

Mr. Glynn

I wish to intervene in this debate only very briefly in connection with one particular body which is administered by the Minister, namely, an Foras Tionscal, which was established under the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952. The Undeveloped Areas Act was passed in 1952 with a great flourish of trumpets and at that time in the debates in the Dáil we heard all sorts of pronouncements from well-meaning Deputies, the Minister who introduced the Bill and all Parties in the Dáil, that the Bill was designed to improve and encourage industrial development in those areas on the western seaboard and elsewhere where year after year there was mass emigration either seasonal or permanent. After three years it is time we asked ourselves what has been done under this Act and in what manner the board—An Foras Tionscal —to which, we might say, the administration of the Act was entrusted has served the purpose for which it was set up.

I see from Section 3 that the Act was intended to apply and does apply to the congested areas and to any other area to which, by order of the Minister, the Act is for the time being declared to apply. The congested areas as specified in the Act, as we would know even if the Act had not designated them, are the Counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway and Kerry and there are a few other areas mentioned also.

Some time ago when a Deputy asked the Minister if he would state in respect of one of these counties, which is the second largest county in Ireland, the number and the total amount of the grants made each year under the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952, since it came into operation the Minister had to reply that in the year ended 31st March, 1953, two grants amounting to £26,000 were approved for projects in that county; that in the year ended 31st March, 1954, one grant of £50,000 was approved; that in the 11 months ended 28th February, 1955, two grants amounting to £36,000 had been approved. He added a very significant sentence to his reply: "No payment has yet been made in respect of these grants".

Where are we getting? We passed an Act in 1952 entitled the Undeveloped Areas Act and we told the people of these areas that we would develop the areas. We encouraged them into believing and thinking that we would give every encouragement to private enterprise, assistance and help of every nature, and the fact is that, three years afterwards, not one penny piece has been paid to the biggest county on that western seaboard. I think the Act was passed purely for propaganda purposes. It has not been implemented in so far as that county and the other counties are concerned. I make an earnest appeal to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to-night to make it his business to see that the Act is implemented to the extent to which it was intended it should be implemented when it was passed by this House. I do not think there is any point whatever in passing Acts of Parliament if they are passed merely for the glorification of the Party or Government for the time being and if they are not implemented.

I shall make a rather scathing comment on the body which was set up under that Act to encourage industry in undeveloped areas—An Foras Tionscal. I had personal experience of being associated with a group of private individuals who were prepared to start an industry in the West of Ireland and to put their private capital into it. Before they came near the Government or the Department of Industry and Commerce or An Foras Tionscal they went to that excellent body, the Industrial Development Authority That Authority deserves a tribute for the encouragement and help its members give to prospective industrialists. With the assistance they received from the Industrial Development Authority and on their own initiative the group to which I refer inquired into the prospects of the success of an industry and, having got all the information and having gone to tremendous trouble to get the facts, they presented their case to An Foras Tionscal.

I have personal knowledge of the fact that from the first time they presented their case they were discouraged; they received no assistance, no encouragement. I am inclined to think that the reason for the discouragement was that An Foras Tionscal considered that that particular industry would compete with an industry which had been established elsewhere in the country and might affect the profits of the particular industry which had been established. The industry which had previously been established was established where all industries, apparently, are established in this country with a view to minimising risk, that is, in the city of Dublin or the surrounding area. The particular body to which I refer pointed out to An Foras Tionscal and to the Government that they could produce commodities for the entire west of Ireland and for the entire area which it was intended to serve at a cost at least 25 per cent. cheaper than industry elsewhere could produce it. The particular commodities concerned were connected with building, farm buildings, if you like, roofing materials, flooring materials and various other things. And the members of this body were able to produce evidence that if they were given assistance they would produce all these materials for the people in the western counties at least 25 per cent. cheaper than these people can buy them to-day.

If we are sincere in our efforts to reduce the cost of things and in our attempts to encourage development, particularly in the undeveloped areas, surely that prime factor—a reduction of more than 25 per cent. in cost of materials for bridge building, for out-office building, for everything that hundreds of thousands of farmers in the west could have delivered to them at 25 per cent. less than they could get it from the vested interest which had a monopoly up to this—should count, with the object of encouraging the promotion of industry in the West of Ireland?

The fact is that it was altogether refused any assistance. I do not know whether that is an isolated case, but I do not think that it is because I have read somewhere at some time that there were up to 190 or more applications for assistance for industries or proposed industries in the undeveloped areas, and I have also read somewhere that less than 1 or 2 or 3 per cent. have met with any success from An Foras Tionscal. I do not know what it is costing to maintain this Foras Tionscal. I do not know what staff is maintained, but I read the Minister's reply to a question by a Deputy in the House in relation to one county— the second biggest county in Ireland— about the amount of assistance An Foras Tionscal had recommended in respect of industry in that county in three years.

The information given shows either a complete lack of desire to help these undeveloped areas or a complete lack of interest in the development of these counties because nobody will tell me that a sum amounting to £26,000 in 1953, £50,000 in 1954 and £36,000 in the following year is sufficient to encourage industry in the furthermost county from the metropolis. I do not think I could accept that as being correct. The amount of assistance given is infinitesimal and could not possibly assist industry.

I have given an instance of a case in which I know the promoters of an industry were not assisted or encouraged. These particular promoters stated to An Foras Tionscal that if they did not get assistance they would start the very same industry within 40 miles of Dublin where they would not need their assistance. Naturally they would not need the assistance if they began the industry near Dublin because the question arises of freight charges down to the West of Ireland and various other factors affecting the risks of promoting industries in that county.

These factors were not taken into consideration at all as far as I can see. It does appear that as a result of the attitude of An Foras Tionscal these promoters have left an area in which they had all the raw materials at hand. They are now contemplating going into an area already over-populated and over-industrialised. I am suggesting seriously to the Minister that he should look into all the facts of this case and all the matters that come within the domain of An Foras Tionscal. If they think they have not got the power under the present Act—the Undeveloped Areas Act of 1952—to make advances to a company contemplating setting up in the West of Ireland, the Minister should consider ways and means of providing such power. If a proposed new company is regarded as being in competition with an older company which had got assistance from either the Industrial Development Authority, or the Minister, or An Foras Tionscal or some other Government-sponsored body, and if the Minister thought assistance should be continued to this older established company as against the proposed company, the Minister should consider if he is ever going to encourage or promote industry to the stage envisaged by this Act.

Proposed new industries with raw materials at hand should be given every encouragement to go ahead. You could have one company on the eastern coast which had been established for several years and which, with the Government assistance, had been making profits for some time, and another newer industry established on the West coast, manufacturing the same commodity but it would be 25 per cent. to 33? per cent. cheaper than a firm which had a monopoly in the area could supply it at. It is a tragic thing to say that the farmers on the west coast have to purchase their building materials from an industry manned and maintained in the most densely populated area in this country — Dublin —and I think it is a poor tribute to the encouragement of industry under this Undeveloped Areas Act of 1952 to say that when an industry was mooted in an area where all the raw materials were available in the West of Ireland no encouragement was given to the promoters, even though they pointed out that they would produce the commodity at 25 per cent. less than the established company.

We are entitled all over the country to expect that a commodity should be produced at a reasonable profit on competitive lines. And what is happening? The Department of Industry and Commerce, as far as one can gather, make a grant to the promoters of an industry, that industry is established, and as far as one can see, once it is established with Government assistance, for ever afterwards it is protected. No other body can compete with it with Government aid. The obvious corollary to that statement and the obvious deduction to be drawn from it is that the particular industry will thrive; it will expand. In what direction will it expand? It will expand in an already over-populated area, in and around the City of Dublin. Nevertheless, we pass what we call an Undeveloped Areas Act and the Government, having passed that Act, subsequently state they cannot assist in establishing industry in this undeveloped area because there already exists in a highly developed area an industry with which the proposed new industry would compete, an industry which would be forced to reduce its prices if a competitor were allowed to set up. I ask the Minister if that is not a fact.

If anybody wants any proof as to the truth of what I am saying he has only to ask himself what has the Department of Industry and Commerce done or what has the body established under the Undeveloped Areas Act done since its inception to encourage and foster the growth and development of industry in the West of Ireland? It will be found that a couple of industries have been encouraged not particularly large and not giving any substantial employment. In the county to which I have referred not a pound note has yet been paid. Grants have been made, but nothing has yet been paid though three years have elapsed.

A few small industries have been encouraged, but very little has been done to develop the undeveloped areas. One particular industry which has been established may possibly grow into a very much bigger industry in the years to come. It has been our experience that one has to produce something novel to the Department and to the board; one of the tests of one's sincerity in obtaining a grant from An Foras Tionscal is that what one intends to produce must be absolutely new. It must not be something which might compete with any other industry. The excuse given is that promoters who might compete with private enterprise cannot be subsidised; it would be unfair to subsidise them in order that they might compete with private enterprise.

I think it would be better to forget about this Act altogether. I do not think there are any commodities of which advantage would be taken in the undeveloped areas in which the element of possible competition would not arise; it might only be 5 per cent. or 10 per cent., but it would be bound either in its ancillary or main production to compete in some way with already existing industries. If we take a strict interpretation of the Act, what purpose does it serve then? I suggest to the Minister that the interpretation of the Act should be far more broadminded than it is at present. Otherwise, the whole force and effect of the Act will be lost. If the Act is to have any beneficial effect it will have to be interpreted on a much more broadminded basis than it has been up to the present.

No assistance has been given under the Act up to the present. Now, some years ago an industry started in my own town. The first sod was turned and the building commenced long before the Undeveloped Areas Act came into operation. Here I would like to pay tribute to the Minister for Agriculture in the last inter-Party Government for being instrumental in having that industry established where it is to-day. Now, the particular factory was not completed until after the passing of the Undeveloped Areas Act. We were treated to the spectacle then of Government Ministers coming down for the opening ceremony and telling the misguided public that this factory represented the first fruits of the Undeveloped Areas Act. Not one penny piece of Government money was advanced towards the erection of that factory. Is it our intention to be honest in our political and public lives?

I appeal to the Minister to implement the Act to its fullest extent. An Foras Tionscal should be so instructed. Alternatively, I suggest that An Foras Tionscal should be abolished, or reconstructed, and the Act forgotten about.

Mr. Bartley

I agree with a good deal of what the last speaker has said about An Foras Tionscal. Two authorities have been set up in this State. One was set up to deal with industry in the country generally, namely, the Industrial Development Authority, and the other was charged with the special obligation of serving that part of the country described under the Act as the undeveloped areas. The last speaker has said that that body has not been a shining success in bringing industries to these areas. References have been made as to what the Minister should do. As I understand the position, it is not what the Minister should do but what private enterprise should do with the help that is available under the Act. On whom is the obligation placed? Thereby hangs the tale. Is it upon the Minister or is it upon private enterprise? I take it that all Parties here so far pin their faith on private enterprise in the matter of industrialisation, with the exception, of course, of large projects like the production of electricity, turf, sugar and so forth. For all the rest we rely upon private enterprise. That is a wise decision.

An Foras Tionscal was established on that basis. Private enterprise need not necessarily be located inside the undeveloped areas. Private enterprise inside the country or private enterprise coming in from outside — our exiles returning with their money or technical skill and knowledge to start an industry or re-establish an old one— can be equally effective and these people know that under the Act they will get all the assistance possible. In the aggregate, I think it is in the neighbourhood of fifty-fifty; I understand they can get half the establishment costs and, having received that, the industry remains their own private venture.

The last speaker has pointed out the defects and in the main his criticism both in its tone and content has been well-intentioned. He has not, however, suggested in what direction the Minister should go or in what respect he should amend or alter the present situation.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.