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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 May 1955

Vol. 150 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed.)

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Walsh).

When I moved that progress be reported last week on this Estimate I produced irrefutable evidence of the potentialities of the Friesian breed as a producer of a good steer. A number of Deputies in the House have since dubbed me as the sworn and avowed advocate of the Friesian. That is not so. I merely produced data, facts and figures, to explode once and for all the hoary theory that the dual purpose Shorthorn was the best cow in the world. I had explained earlier on that I was not unmindful of the capabilities and I shall now try to tell the House something of the potentialities of the Jersey cow.

I think the Jersey has a very important part to play in our dairying economy. I come from a dairying county in which there are many small dairy farms; I have often pondered on this particular aspect of our farming economy, and I have come to the conclusion that, while the larger dairy farms may be quite suitable for the larger breeds, such as the dairy Shorthorn and the Dutch Friesian, such large breeds have no place whatever on the small dairy farm.

The Dutch Friesian has an easy average 1,000 gallons milk potential; and from the data available it would be easier for us to get that 1,000 gallons from the Dutch Friesian than it would be from the Irish dairy Shorthorn. Now, on the larger dairy farms I believe the steer should be kept at least to the age of one and a half to two years. These farms are large enough to finish these beasts.

The only really satisfactory dairy breed for the small dairy man is the Jersey. A peculiar pattern presents itself on the small dairy farm. Any Deputy who is conversant with that pattern is aware that the calves are sold within a week after birth; if they are not sold then, they are ferried out when they are six to nine months old. This practice has been described as the Trojan odyssey of the Irish calf. Indeed the peregrinations of the unfortunate Irish calf put the exploits of Ulysses in the shade; it is moved from farm to farm and passed through a chain of blockers, wringers and all kinds of spivs before it ultimately reaches the big farm.

Another reason why the Jersey should have a place on the small dairy farm is because the relative economy of the 600-gallon Jersey is equal to the 1,000-gallon Shorthorn or Friesian. Deputies are aware, of course, of the very high butter fat content of the Jersey cow. Another factor in arguing the relative merits of the different breeds is the food units consumed and the relative production in return therefor. The smallholder can carry more Jersey cows than he can of the larger breeds because the Jersey, being on the average about 7 cwt. and the Friesian or Shorthorn being in the region of 11 to 12 cwt., the consumption rate of food in the case of the smaller animal is very much less.

Deputies are aware that there is a certain snobbery in Irish dairy farming. In my constituency, the farmer is not assessed by the number of acres he has; he is assessed by the grass of so many cows. That is the phrase that is used to describe the size of his farm. That being so, an increased number of cows might inflate his position socially.

We have never had in this country a small-farm economy. That is one of the reasons why we hear so much about the distress suffered by the small dairy farmer. The small dairy farm has been used for the past 50 years as a kind of satellite subsidiary to the larger beef farms. The calf produced on the small farm is moved out at an early age. So many people are involved in this movement that the small farmer in the last analysis receives a very small proportion of the profit from the birth of the calf to the time when it reaches six or nine months. The general practice on a small farm is to move the calf some time between September and December.

The small farmer must be made to realise that he can only survive as a specialist. He can only become a specialist if he is provided with the high-powered conversion units which will give him an adequate return for his labour. There must be concentration. A 50-acre farm down in Cork bears no relationship to a 20-acre farm within seven miles of Dublin. Living close to the built-up areas, a farmer can specialise and thereby get a higher return per acre from his 20-acre farm than can a man with six times that amount of land 100 miles away from Dublin.

If the small farmer is to survive he must be given an independent economy of his own. He must cease to be connected to this inept and improvident beef industry of the flat lands and the Midlands. He must not be tied to the rancher and the beef farmer. He must be given an independent economy. But for 50 years the policy of the Department of Agriculture has, in the main, been to use the small farmer as the satellite subsidiary of this inept and improvident beef industry. That is why there is this tendency for the small man to disappear. He will survive only if he is given the essential specialist conversion units—a better cow, a better pig, better grass yields and higher crop yields. That is the only way in which we can ensure the survival of the smallholder.

The small dairyman as a calf rearer —say even to the nine months stage— has taken all the risks associated with calf rearing in that nine months. Remember that all the calf graves lie by the fences of the small dairyman. When the animal has reached nine or ten months the risk, at least to a very great extent, has passed. We know from Professor Murphy's survey of the Milford area of the enormous casualties suffered by those farmers in the dairying areas who attempted to carry the calves over that risk-laden period —I think it was something in the region of 20 per cent. Now, with improved vaccines and improved drugs— we have aurofac and sulphamethazine and other drugs which are of considerable use. We have the sulpha and hexachlorathaine to get rid of the parasitic diseases of calves but there is no drug which will rid the calves of the external parasites that have attached themselves to the hides of the calves, the wretched people, the parasites of middle-men who are living off the hides and skeletons of the unfortunate calves.

That is why I advocate the Jersey cow for the small man. Let him forget altogether about rearing calves. Remember New Zealand is one of the most highly competitive countries in the world so far as the output of dairy products is concerned, per cow and per acre. They started on Shorthorns. The original cow population of New Zealand was entirely Shorthorn and they crossed, not by importing Jersey cows but by importing Jersey bulls. They crossed their whole cow population into Jerseys and it places them to-day in one of the soundest and one of the most unassailable positions in the world as far as the export of dairy produce to a competitive market is concerned.

When I come in here people say I am a crank. Well, at least I have the advantage that I bring a fresh mind to this House and a new approach. I have the privilege of being able to disagree with people on my own side of the House as well as with the Minister for Agriculture himself. He may hold a view, but I have maintained and I stated here when speaking on his Estimate last year that there is a permanent record in the Irish Department of Agriculture and every now and then the Minister is given by the permanent staff the menial job of putting on the disc and doing what the Americans call disc-jockey. On one side it plays: "The dual purpose cow is the best in the world". Turn up the other side and what do we hear?—"We can never again compete as exporters of dairy produce in the competitive markets of the world". That has been the position; that is the contradiction on either side of that record.

Take the pattern which evolved after the war. We went into a sellers' market. We were selling our dairy produce in a market where dairy produce was scarce. We found ourselves in the peculiar position of importing into this country butter from New Zealand, 14,000 miles away, produced cheaper and landed here cheaper than we could produce it in Ireland. Then we went into the sellers' market and exported processed cheese to the English market. What happened? The very minute the Canadians and other exporters of cheese were in a position to come into the British market, the very minute competition returned, we were forced into the position of gathering up our impediments and clearing out. We are out now for cheese and butter and there is a challenge where chocolate crumb is concerned. Remember that if you cannot compete in one dairy produce product you cannot compete in any.

We have to face the position that with the improvement in our grass— the Minister talks about sending experts to advise farmers to various areas in the country and one of the primary jobs of those particular individuals will be to show the farmers how to treat grass as a crop and not as a gift of God or an accident of nature — once we increase our grass production and once we teach our farmers a modern grass technique one of the things we can be assured of is that we are bound to have as a permanent feature of our economy a certain exportable surplus of dairy produce. Are we to be placed in the position of permanently selling at a loss subsidised Irish dairy produce in the English market? No matter how long that record is played, no matter how often the thing is repeated, we must provide an economic conversion unit in the competitive cow. We must give our farmers the same tools to compete with as their competitors have in the British market. There is no use in our howling about things, our farmers will have to be put in the position of being given instruments that are as competitive as their opposite numbers elsewhere have. We live in a world where there is no respect for anything small. It has been the pattern of this century that anything small is crushed out and trampled on. We are supplied here with statistical abstracts. Study the figures and what do they reveal? We have the Land Commission creating something like 1,200 new holdings a year, and, I say, in the main on the present basis of our agricultural economy holdings which will make a demand for further increased social services. What is happening at the other end? You have consolidation of small holdings, elimination and liquita dation of exactly twice that figure, so that on that basis the small man is being continually and relentlessly crushed out. That is the pattern which evolves to us to-day for anybody who wants to go to the trouble of studying the figures.

Recently I had a rather peculiar experience. It was in connection with a man who had spent almost 50 years in America. When he came back he tried to trace his relations and his home and all that was left was the ruin of the old house he was born in. A new generation had come since he had left; the old people were dead, and the family had disappeared; all that was left was the ruin of the old home. The lands, in the meantime, had been absorbed by a big landowner close by.

I do not want to be sentimental on this Estimate but one of the things he did was to go to the owner and seek permission to examine the ruins. The only thing he could recover from the ruins to take with him was the hearthstone of the old house. He had the hearthstone of the old house dug up and transported to America to be incorporated in the home of his family in exile in the United States. That is the pattern of Irish agriculture. That is the tragedy. The small man is being continually squeezed out and he is being squeezed out mainly by the bad economic pattern to which he has and is subjected. The small man must be treated in a different way as, otherwise, this consolidation will increase in momentum and no matter what the Land Commission may do they will not be able to replace by division the number of holdings that will be consolidated and absorbed in any given year.

I do not come to talk in this House without having some idea of the solution. I have just a few pointers in the direction of a solution. I say, first of all, teach our small dairyman the value of scientific grass and crop production. Secondly, give him a Jersey herd and a better pig. Then, straightway, you have given him a new outlook, a new hope and the title deeds to survival. That is my belief as far as the small man is concerned. Remember that 60 per cent. of the farms of Ireland slide down the scale from 50 statute acres and bear in mind, at the same time, that in some of the most progressive countries in the world the average farm is no more than 25 acres. That is the position in some of the Scandinavian countries. Yet, because they have adopted a scientific and high-geared production system, they make a first-class living on those farms.

Not so long ago I was speaking to what would be the equivalent here of a professor of agricultural economics. This man from Copenhagen University was studying here the pattern of Irish agriculture. In the course of conversation with him I mischievously asked him: "What is your ambition?" I was thunderstruck by his reply—his ambition was to own ten hectares of land. One of the things I say is that, despite the fact that our fight for freedom was synonymous with our fight for the control of the soil of Ireland, there is evidence that, as a race, we have lost our love for the land. Our educational system lays no emphasis on love for the land.

If we study the curricula of our educational system we will see that, in the main, it is geared to supply material for the Civil Service, the seminary, the teaching and other professions. The whole educational system is geared to cater either for the university or for the Civil Service. The majority of our rural population will not go beyond the national school. There is no word about love for the land nor is anything taught in the national schools that will create an interest in the youthful and impressionable mind as far as the botanical and physical structure of the land is concerned. The very opposite is the case in Denmark. The Danes have their folk schools and practically 80 per cent. of their population pass through those folk-schools. The preface to the meeting of any Danish society or organisation is the singing of a Danish folksong. Here, that is completely absent.

We have a peculiar snobbery in our rural set-up. The very minute people on the land accumulate money they do not think in terms of trying to place their second son on another farm. They think in terms of apprenticing him to the law or of making him a doctor. In their view, he must be a professional man. Obviously their attitude is that the yardstick by which you can measure social progress and upliftment is to have the next generation members of the various professions. In my view this bias and this prejudice must be attacked also. We all admit that, on those small farms, limitations set by size can be offset by intensity of production. That is what has made those small Scandinavian countries what they are.

If you want to make sure or to guarantee the survival of our small farms, you will have to give them food conversion units that will give the maximum return for the minimum intake. In other words, you will have to give them a cow that, with the minimum amount of food, will give the maximum return and profit and similarly a pig that will do likewise. If you could give them a better cow and a better pig and teach them a better grass and a better animal husbandry you would put them some way on the road to finding a solution of their problem. However, if one Minister for Agriculture after another keeps hollering across the House that we have the best Department of Agriculture in the world, that our system, our cows, our dual purpose Shorthorns and our large Yorks are the best in the world then we know it is only a matter of time until we shall have effected the absolute disappearance of the smallholder.

One of the evils which have beset this country is continuing emigration. Somebody once said that the lifeblood of a nation is its young men and young women. On that basis, this country has for years had a severed artery through which we have been slowly bleeding to death. We now know we have reached the stage when we have a disproportionate amount of old people. Emigration has been our greatest catastrophe. Remember every able-bodied man and woman leaving the shores of Ireland represents an enormous capital loss.

I wish somebody who is a better mathematician and a better statistician than I am would try to assess the capital loss involved to the State by the emigration of an able-bodied man or woman. Fifty years ago the expenditure by the State on the individual was at a minimum. To-day, with increased social services, with the State coming so much to the aid of the individual from childhood to manhood, the figure must be enormous. You can multiply the capital loss represented by the net emigration of able-bodied men and women and thereby assess the recurring capital loss to the State in sterling. Emigration is the severed artery by which we are slowly but surely bleeding to death.

There is another aspect of the matter. There is the consequential loss. By the time a boy or girl reaches 18 years of age the State has expended to the maximum, and in the normal course of events should expect, at that age, some return for that expenditure. The position is that, at the time when that particular individual is at the stage when his or her brain, brawn or muscle should help in building up our economy and should give something in return to the State which has so generously helped in his or her upbringing, he or she crosses the gangway of the emigrant ship and the return which should be ours goes to the building of the country to which he or she emigrates. That is the pattern here.

You can start as many industries as you want but the picture here has been, not so much the absorption of our surplus population as the urbanisation of our rural population. We have one of the lowest rural densities of population in Europe. If we had increased agriculture, if we had some sane and sensible agricultural policy, there is every hope that we could considerably increase the density of our rural population.

These are the factors which have to be considered. I would not like to be the Minister who would sit over there and say: "We have plus this on exports and plus that on exports." The whole thing is all cod. There is a problem to be solved. We have not got at the root of the problem and these small increases will fluctuate according as the demand for the market across the Channel operates one way or the other. That has been very much the pattern of Irish agriculture. When there were pluses it was when the demand existed on the other side. When there were minuses it was when the demand declined. At this particular period and for the last ten or 12 years Britain has been going through an industrial boom. Suppose, in a settled or stabilised world, we had a recession in purchasing power in Great Britain, what then would the position be? Would not the pluses be very soon replaced by minuses? The unfortunate part of our set-up here is that we started 50 years ago with a Commonwealth economy and we cannot get away from it even now.

Something has been done in land reclamation and all the reclamation has been in the bogs. We have been perpetually in the bog. Travel through the country anywhere you want to and you will see marginal land on the foothills that was once comparatively fertile land, land which maintained that population which has disappeared into the mist of emigration within the past 100 years. I believe that the potential there is as great as, and possibly many times greater than, the potential of bog reclamation. We have done nothing whatever to reclaim the marginal lands.

Speaking in this debate last week I pointed out the huge market that exists for the New Zealanders in England for mutton carcases. Is there not something to be examined here? Our season is the opposite to the New Zealander's season. He comes in with peak production in the opposite season to us. Surely we could come in when he seasonally disappears and try to increase production on our marginal lands and on our foothills. The examination of increased production of mutton and wool requires the immediate attention of our Department of Agriculture.

I want to say something else in connection with the utilisation of the foothills and the marginal lands. There is nothing more utterly ridiculous than to see a man 2,000 feet up trying to keep the same cow as we could have, say, in the Golden Vale. If we were people capable of making a survey of the position, would it not occur to us that the sensible thing would be to put in there an animal whose genetical and environmental background puts that animal in the position that it is a known hill forager and a good survivor in the hill country? We have here the Kerry breed. Nothing has been done about it. There is a Kerry Society even in England. I doubt if there is one in this country. The breed is being preserved for us at the other side. Then there is the Ayrshire.

I could produce facts and figures but I do not want to confuse the House by giving too much data in regard to breeds. The hardy hill breeds should have some consideration in our economy.

The Minister and the whole Department of Agriculture is a huge propaganda machine, all the time geared at high power trying to assert that the dual purpose Shorthorn is the open sesame to every problem facing Irish agriculture. The relative facts and figures should be placed without bias before the people. That high propaganda machine should be reversed and put to its normal function which should be to analyse the facts and figures and make them available to the farmers so as to educate them and to help them.

I am a lone voice in this House. Look round you here. You know what my value as a propagandist in this House is, with eight or ten people listening. You know that on any other Estimate there is a queue of Deputies waiting to speak in the House. When it comes to the Estimate for Agriculture, the basic industry in this country, the arch on which our whole economic structure rests, you have a few old "Droighnains" like myself and nobody else.

Sílim gur ceart dúinn líon-daoine fhagháil don Teachta mar sin, má's féidir.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

I have dealt at some length with the question of breeds and I will now say a few words on our failure to produce them. The only way by which you can measure the capabilities of any animal is, of course, by some system of recording. We have for many years in this country had a breeding system which was very much a hit and miss affair. We have dug our hands deep into the taxpayer's pocket year after year and we have brought in bulls here and we do not know whether they were improving or depressing our milk yields. All evidence points to the fact that those superhybrids that we had imported here in the main had a depressing effect on our milk output per cow. We have various breeding stations all over the country but very little is being done. I am aware that some scratching of the surface of the problem is at the moment taking place here and there but we have no expert team of people who are fully qualified to go into this huge job as it should be undertaken. We are lagging behind.

What does the Deputy mean by superhybrids?

It might be an extravagance.

On that basis we will accept it.

I have spoken loud and long in connection with what we have done and what we have failed to do in regard to dairy bulls, but there is one aspect of our breeding economy in regard to which we are at the moment in a very complacent mood. We have no right to be in that mood in this connection, that is, in regard to our beef economy. Beef bulls have been brought in here and nobody knows anything about them. There has been no progeny testing of beef bulls in this country; no progeny records of any of the beef bulls we have in the various stations here exist. We know that in the country of origin, which is in the main Great Britain, they have done very little in the matter of the progeny testing of beef bulls. In England there is the traditional set-up there of the squire in his tweeds at the show-ring. They have developed this set-up in which a certain individual—he may be titled or he may be the local squire— has this annual function of going to the local show to adjudicate on the various bulls presented.

There is practically nothing done by way of giving us data in connection with the performance of these beef bulls. But we do know that in America some real work has been done in regard to the progeny testing of beef bulls. As I said very early on in this debate, one of the greatest tragedies which have overtaken us is that we have regarded and continued to regard Great Britain as the stud of the world where bulls either for milking or beef breeds are concerned. If we could widen our horizon and look further afield we would get far better value for our money than we could possibly hope to get over there. We have been doing an extraordinary thing. We have been importing into this country animals whose records refute their usefulness as either dairy bulls or beef bulls. This method of visual selection which has been a feature of the old squire in his tweeds is as useful and as logical as the beauty contest with a bull inspector at the local cross-roads or the Department inspector in the pig house of the local pedigree pig breeder.

If we want to get factual evidence we have to turn our minds to those people who have done something even in the beef world from the angle of progeny testing their bulls. In America they developed a technique in which there are pointers in the selection of beef bulls which are far more useful than this practice of visual selection. They have adopted a rather rough and ready system there, that is, of measuring, one, the calf's weight at birth, two, his weaning weight, and three, his daily rate of gain over the first 12 months. Examination under these three headings would give far better results and a surer indication of the potentialities of the bull than any judge could give or hope to get from visual selection. Remember the same holds for beef as for dairying. If animals were measured even on that rough and ready system which I have indicated I feel sure, as statistics indicate fairly well, we would be able to acquire a better quality animal.

You do not think our beef cattle are inferior?

No. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to put me on the witness stand I would be here until tomorrow evening. At the moment we are in an advantageous position. Our position at the moment is that even our stores are probably superior to those that are produced in England. But we cannot afford to be complacent. Let us turn to the United States and see what they are doing. The Parliamentary Secretary has possibly studied some of their surveys as I have done. As between the progeny of one animal and another there have been variations of as great as £20 at the finishing date. It is vitally important that you get the strain of bull which will produce, even in the beef world, the greatest liveweight gain, the highest grade of meat for lowest intake of food. Is that not good economy?

Nobody would disagree with that if one could achieve it.

Some of the top-class stock have a gain of from 8½ to 9 cwt. in the first 12 months. I think myself that we should widen the horizon and examine the beef bull position, and if we could get better value in the United States, go there. After all it cannot be all one way they buy our blood stock. Recently there emanated from one of the Government Departments, in spite of all the hullabaloo about Tulyar, a certain document pointing out that he was the greatest money spinner of all time.

He has earned only £14,000 so far.

I should like to refer now to the tuberculin testing of cattle. There is one peculiar feature in regard to this matter. We know that in some counties the reaction rate has been exceptionally high. I do not want to give a figure for a very good reason but it has been a disturbing figure. Is it not an extraordinary position that we find ourselves here now eliminating, because they are reactors, a very high proportion of our dairy cows in a certain area when a very high proportion of them should have been eliminated long ago as pensioners? Is that not a peculiar business? That is one of the most disturbing things about this scheme. We have slipped in this matter for quite a long time, and I maintain that our tuberculin testing of cattle has been accelerated by the rapid progress of the tuberculin testing scheme in Great Britain. We know very well what has been going on across the water in this matter.

It is vitally important for us that we should proceed with all haste to reduce the incidence of T.B. in our cattle. One of the features I should like to mention to the Minister is the fact that housing is a big factor in the elimination of T.B. We know ourselves that it is useless to eliminate one set of reactors unless the replacements can be put into sanitary houses; you are getting rid of one bane of reactors but their replacements will react again in six months if they are not properly housed. If we have not as a prerequisite good housing much of our efforts and expenditure will have been wasted. The Minister has now got to administer the farm buildings scheme to the extent that every dairyman in the country should be in a position to get such a grant that he would be encouraged to have a sanitary cow byre and I believe that if a survey were made of the dairy farmers of the country we would find in a very high proportion of the cases it would mean a complete replacement of their existing cow byres.

From the veterinary angle—and I should point out that I speak as a layman—we know that a general cause for the spread of T.B. among our live stock is unpasteurised skim milk. Skim milk forms the stable diet of calves for a number of months in the year. If the milk is not pasteurised you cannot eliminate T.B. and I would ask the Department and the Minister for Agriculture in all haste to proceed with the erection of pasteurisers in our creameries. I would ask the Minister to make available grants, and to make them retrospective to those who have already installed pasteurisers because these people are doing important preliminary work in the eradication of bovine T.B.

I shall turn now to pigs and pig production. The Minister has warned us that we are now approaching the position when we are leaving a seller-market and being forced into a competitive one. We are in the position of having to ask ourselves if we have a competitive animal. Are our farmers able to say that the animal they are producing is able to compete with that of other countries who are exporting to the English market? I say they are not. For years we have been crowing side by side with the dual purpose Shorthorn about the large York. As far back as 1906 the Danes began improving their pig production methods. We are now doing some small work in pig testing in Grange and we have to wait until next year before we have a progeny testing station in the Munster Institute in Cork. You have had in Denmark 50 years of intensive genetical examination of a particular breed and all through the years we have ignored the position and now we come along and find we are not able to compete in the British market.

Irish bacon has been selling at a loss abroad and we know that the British Food Ministry under the 1948 Agreement are the bulk buyers of Irish bacon and have been selling that bacon at a loss. I propose to try and place on the records of this House some comparative figures which will show the advantageous position of our main competitor, the Dane. In pig feeding trials conducted by Dr. Senior and Professor Sheehy of the Albert College to test the results from barley fed at varying degrees of fineness, we get this very disturbing figure: we get the conversion rate of 4.22 lbs. of meal fed for each liveweight pound of meat produced. By way of apology for the best pig in the world, we get this conclusion:—

"It is possible that an unthrifty strain was unwittingly used."

The report goes on:—

"It has been observed on previous occasions in this Department that considerable variation can be found among different strains of the Large White pig with respect to growth and rate of ability to convert food."

That is a rather disturbing conclusion from two very eminent men. I would venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that one of the leading animal dieticians in Europe is our own Dr. Sheehy. Anybody who knows anything about the work he has done must admit that he is one of the outstanding men in his particular field in the past 25 or 30 years.

He stated recently that the 12 st. pig takes somewhere between six and nine cwt. of meal. Again, he says:—

"Not alone is there extraordinary variability among our commercial pigs from the point of view of capability to convert pig food into bacon, but there is a similar and perhaps greater variability in respect of the quantity of bacon they produce. Such is the Irish commercial pig both in respect of food convertibility and quality of carcase. Even with the best husbandry, it is an unsuitable foundation on which to extend a stable pig production."

Those are the conclusions drawn by one of the ablest men we have to advise us.

As far back as 1914 and 1915 the Danes were getting a conversion rate of 3.82 lb. of meal per lb. liveweight increase. The report of a test recently carried out on 3,424 Landrace pigs gives a varying return, ranging between 2.73 lb. and 3.4 lb. of meal per lb. liveweight of meat produced and an average of 3.06 lb. per liveweight increase. That is the average conversion rate available as a result of a recent test on the Landrace carried out in Denmark.

I know that the Minister last year and recently literally went into a tail spin in expatiating on the danger of introducing this dangerous pig disease, atrophic rhinitis. He said veterinary advice debarred him from considering the importation of Landrace pigs to improve our stock. Last year we had myxomatosis. The best veterinary advice the Minister could get advised him not to introduce into this country another virus disease. The Minister waxed eloquent when he said that in the parish of Kilcolman in the county of Roscommon he was eaten out of house and home by these wretched rodents; he said that he was in the awful position that the rabbits in the parish of Kilcolman enjoyed diplomatic immunity and extra-territorial rights because of the fact that they had their habitat in the local graveyard and the Minister could not go in to gas them out of it.

Our farmers last year went out and flouted the law. There was a complaint in Cork recently about shortage of vegetables and the farmers were abused for not producing them. Did anyone ever see the depredations wrought on a plot of cabbage by rabbits? They will clear out every cabbage overnight. They will clear out turnips and carrots. This year there was peace and ease and quiet and the prospects are that there will be a plentiful supply of vegetables because the rabbits are not there to destroy them. The farmers last year took the law into their own hands and they gave the Minister's advisers one of the greatest jolts they ever got. They satisfied themselves first that there was no danger in introducing myxomatosis; they introduced it and we all know the devastation wrought amongst the rabbit population. I am not for a moment exulting over the sufferings of the rabbits. The disease was a horrible one, but we can see now that it was very effective.

This year the bogey is atrophic rhinitis. Perhaps I am dropping a bombshell when I say that there is a lucrative business over the Border; Republican sows are being smuggled across and mated to half-bred Landrace boars. Despite the warnings of the veterinary section of the Department of Agriculture, half-bred Landrace pigs are at the moment thriving in the Republic.

We all know the devastation that can be caused by foot and mouth disease. Nevertheless we import bulls. Probably they go through a double quarantine, but the fact remains that we import them and there is no evidence that any imported bull ever introduced foot and mouth disease because the necessary precautions were taken. There is the implication, however, that the importation of Landrace pigs would introduce atrophic rhinitis. If the necessary precautions are taken there will be no danger of introducing that disease. It is our proud boast that we have here disease free pigs. We have no such thing. There is a very high mortality rate here in pigs from oedema.

The innuendo is that atrophic rhinitis is endemic in the Landrace. That is not so. Away back in 1927 or 1928, 7.8 per cent. of all the pigs under test in Denmark failed to reach slaughter weight. In a recently-published survey which embraced 3,424 pigs, only 1.94 per cent. failed to reach slaughter weight. Does that figure suggest that the Danish Landrace is ridden with, or endemic to atrophic rhinitis? Not at all; the facts are that we have no figures that we could put up for our large white York from the point of view of any tests being made, but we keep on prating and hollering about the dangers that exist. I believe the farmers here will take the law into their own hands, if the Department or the Minister fails to come to their aid by trying to provide them with a conversion unit that will put them in competition. They will take the law into their own hands and get that pig themselves. That is my belief.

In this matter, there are various factors to be considered—the number of vertebrae, thoracic and cerebral measurements. It is a highly complicated job and others who have made a study of it have worked out formulae which they have on their files. We have not a figure. We are now about to start. Where will the Irish pig feeder be in three years? We cannot expect to improve in five, six or seven years. We cannot hope to put our feeders in a competitive position with people who have being doing since 1906 what we say we shall do next year. Is not that logical?

Then we have Dr. H. Clausen, the Danish director of pig-testing, telling us that a wild pig taken out of the zoo and mated with Landrace boars—that is a wild pig mated to first-class Landrace boars—will bring the progeny, after five crossings in seven years, to a commercially competitive position with the existing commercial pig in Denmark. Those are the facts given by a man who knows what he is talking about.

They have been testing their Yorks in England for a number of years and we are going to start the same thing. Are we going to travel along the same road and discover the same mistakes? Here are the findings of an experiment carried out by Professor Cooper at Wye College, Kent:—

"No progeny of a large white boar has yet given an economy of gain of 3.23 conversion ratio at any British testing station, still less have given anything like the Danish figure of 3.06 economy of gain."

Actually recent experiments at Wye College, Kent, under Professor Cooper, obtained the figure of 3.7. Not one of the boars so far tested comes within striking distance of the Danish average with their Landrace food conversion ratio of 3.06.

Dr. Sheehy has commented somewhere that with better rations, still better ratios could be obtained even here with that same pig because we have to realise that the bulk of Danish pig food consists of barley, skim milk, pollard, grass or fodder beet. Their pigs are not fed on what one might describe as a very high plane of nutrition. The Landrace is finished on a 200 lb. kill weight on an average of 4¼ cwt. of meal equivalent. It varies somewhat and some of the tests show that a figure as low as 3¾ cwts. of meal per 200 lb. kill weight can be obtained. Professor Sheehy says that to get a 12 stone pig here it requires something between six and nine cwt. of pigfeed.

We have other factors. The average Danish sow has an average of 15.5 pigs per year reared to slaughter weight. The British sow has an average of 12.2. Then when we come to factories comparison — and then I think we shall have enough of pigs and bacon as well —for every 100 lbs. of dead weight pig delivered Danish factories produce 83.6 lbs. of bacon. The generally accepted figure for the Irish factories is 75 lbs. In this country we are told that the sale of offals pays all factory costs but the Danish figures show that after taking out costs and factory expenses there is a profit of 26/- per pig after the disposal of offals. That figure in itself would indicate a close examination of the figures returned from the Irish bacon curers.

Before I conclude I want to say something about a subject on which I was arguing earlier—that is that the basic pattern of our agriculture was a factor in our high emigration, migration and rural depopulation. The low earning power, the low density of population on our farms, have forced us into the position that there has been wholesale emigration and wholesale migration. Something like 44 per cent. of the country's total industrial development is centred here in Dublin City and the balance of something over 50 per cent. must be distributed among areas outside of Dublin. That leads one to believe that the opportunities for the absorption of the rural population are rather meagre in relation to the huge area outside greater Dublin. We can only expect a solution from a completely revolutionised agriculture. There seems to be no opportunity for the surplus population in our small towns or on the land but to emigrate. If one were to study the figures something like 20 per cent. of this year's capital investment goes to agriculture. The reverse should be the case. You cannot develop agriculture by a starving of capital investments. There may be differences of opinion as to how you can put capital into agriculture.

We know very well that the present Minister did not help in the matter of putting capital into agriculture. We know there was what one might call the inter-Party blood bank. There were no voluntary donors and when the Minister wanted to get somebody whom he could press into service as a contributor he went after the grain growers. He scalped the grain growers. By one act he considerably diminished their income and consequently bled them of capital. The point is that there has been over a long period a capital starvation in Irish agriculture. You can no more develop Irish agriculture on a basis of a starved capitalisation than you can develop industry. We want a new approach to our agricultural problems and the substantial infusion of capital if we are to alter substantially the pattern of Irish agriculture. Remember the pattern has not altered in the past 50 years. The mechanics may have altered but the general pattern of Irish agriculture remains the same.

I have spoken at some length on this debate and I am sure there are a few Deputies whom I have subjected to an endurance test.

The contribution of the Deputy has been very valuable.

I have been lured into this debate by some of the statements made by Deputy Moher. I have been very impressed by the originality of his ideas and by his contribution here this afternoon. I must, further, pay him the tribute that no contribution I have heard from anybody in this House on any topic has been as detached from political taint as that of Deputy Moher. I compliment him on that. I do not agree with everything he has said but I have been struck by the profundity of his knowledge in regard to cattle breeds and pig breeding. Evidently, he has a bias in favour of the Jersey cow. I do not intend to go into that controversial topic now. In my view, it is an open matter at the moment. Deputy Moher must, however, admit that our farmers are advancing scientifically and that they are still free to have the cattle of their choice. There may be something in the suggestion that those breeds should be zoned off in different areas but, while some of them are new, the Shorthorn has been very well tried in this country.

In the far distant past of our chequered history, the Shorthorn proved to be the mainstay of our existence as a nation. In generations past, when we had a flourishing woollen industry which was destroyed by penal legislation from across the Channel and when we had a flourishing linen industry which, also, was destroyed and when strong efforts were made to ruin our live-stock trade those efforts failed because the Irish farmer stuck tenaciously to the Shorthorn breed of cattle. I am not advocating the Shorthorn but, in present circumstances and in the present set-up of things international, and from what we know from statements made here by the Minister and the ex-Minister, Deputy Walsh, we are convinced that we are lucky at this moment that we, too, have stuck so well to the Shorthorn breed in recent years.

There is no factor in our economy that brings in so much money to this country as our live stock. When we realise that something over £53,000,000 comes into this country from our exportable surplus we must admit that it is the sheet anchor of our economy. Deputy Moher has spoken at length on the various breeds of cattle. Evidently, he is an expert on that matter. He spoke with great earnestness and great conviction. Let us remember, however, that the Shorthorn breed has been tried out and has never been found wanting in all our chequered history and that the others are still new. I feel it should be left to the choice of our own people to select what suits them. At the moment, if we had nothing but herds of Jerseys in this country we would have an exportable surplus of butter—and the small exportable surplus which we have at the moment has to be subsidised to get a market for it outside our shores. We have to bear that fact in mind.

Deputy Moher also dealt with the bacon industry in this country. I cannot conceive how it is that with all that we heard in our schooldays about Irish bacon, its quality and its flavour, the position still is that our bacons are graded second-class and third-class on the British market. It is a reflection on ourselves and it is a reflection on our own Department of Agriculture that they have not succeeded in educating our people to produce the type of pig and adopt the type of ration that will produce the type of bacon that is palatable to the people across the Channel.

Deputy Moher spoke about the small farmer and said he is being crushed out of existence. I agree with him to a certain extent. I believe he is crushed out of existence for the want of capital. I know farmers and their life is one long continual struggle trying to hold on to their homes—and that has been the case with their people for generations before them. They have never been able to rise to a level that would give them any independence by reason of lack of capital. It is extraordinary that while we all admit that agriculture is our basic industry, no matter on what side of the House we may sit, it has never got the proper nursing from the Department of Agriculture which it requires. We have loans and grants for various things but I submit they are just palliatives. Undoubtedly, they help but they are not sufficient to tide our people over any critical stage or to give them that independence which we should like to see them enjoy on their holdings.

Deputy Moher spoke at length about cereal production. It is paradoxical to find that here, where we have a tradition of producing ample supplies of barley and oats, we have had to import barley during the past two years. We had an assurance from the Minister the other day that he has good anticipations that that will not be necessary during the coming year and I am glad of it. I hope it will never be necessary in this country again. We can produce feeding barley here as well and much better than most continental countries. Surely, with the potential we have here, we should be able to produce the very maximum amount required. I believe there is a market in this country for 3,000,000 barrels of barley and I believe it will not be overproduced in the immediate years to come.

There are lamentations about the reduction in the wheat acreage but, if we are to believe the assurance of the Minister, the reduction will be negligible as compared with last year. The position was—and evidently the previous Government were cognisant of the fact—that something had to be done to reduce the acreage under wheat.

Let us bear that in mind and let us face up to this problem in a realistic way. It could have been done in various ways but the fact stood out very forcibly and clearly that there were being set up in this country a whole lot of wheat ranches. That was because of the position that existed here in 1954. That is not desirable at all in this country because these ranches would be set up to the exclusion of the small farmer, the middle-class farmer, who produces here in times of emergency and who produces as a duty to himself, his family and the nation.

These are just a few matters to which I wished to refer. I had no notion whatever of intervening in this debate but I was impressed by the contribution of Deputy Moher and rose to make these few remarks.

I was not expecting to take part in the debate to-night. I thought Deputies on the Government side would do a little more in defending the Minister and the Estimate. I am surprised that there is only one sole representative of the Government on the benches opposite.

The Minister for Agriculture last week, in introducing his Estimate, started off by complaining and objecting very strongly to people telling him what he should not do. He did not want to hear that at all. He just wanted to hear their suggestions as to how he could do things better than he was doing them.

If we spend a few moments this evening investigating and examining what the Minister did in his administration of the Department in the last year and how he managed the affairs entrusted to him by Dáil Éireann 12 months ago it will be of advantage to the House. The Minister for Agriculture took office early in June last year. A number of problems arose during the following few months. He had to face, not shortages or famine conditions, but something that is very important in our economy, that is, a number of saleable surpluses of agricultural produce which he was charged with finding a market for and selling to the advantage of Irish agriculture.

First and foremost he had butter. Within a couple of months of the Minister's appointment as Minister for Agriculture he realised that, owing to the magnificent manner in which his predecessor managed the affairs of the country in his three years of office, we had a surplus of butter last year. We will call it milk, whether it is converted into butter, cheese or any other product into which milk can be converted. Did the Minister for Agriculture proceed to sell that surplus milk? How did he proceed to sell it? He had spent a great number of years in this House condemning former Ministers for Agriculture for exporting our surplus and giving any kind of subsidy in respect of it. I heard him hundreds of times when he was on this side of the House, saying that he would be dead and he would be damned and he would be everything else before he would pay the damned British to eat our food. How often did we listen to the present Minister as Deputy Dillon telling that to the House and the country and preaching it off the platforms and condemning the Minister for the time being?

I am glad the Minister has returned to the House. We often heard him condemning his predecessors in office because they dared to subsidise the export of any agricultural product. He vowed solemnly here that he would be dead and damned rather than pay the bloody British, as he described them, or any other foreign people, to eat our food. Within six weeks of taking office he proceeded to pay them 10d. a lb.

I do not agree that the Minister was paying them anything, because they had sufficient butter if we never sent a pound to them. I do not agree with what the Minister said formerly, when in office, that he was paying the British to eat anything belonging to us. He was not. Even though he was paying the subsidy, he was not paying the British. I hope, as a result of his education over the years, we will never hear from him, either as a Deputy in Opposition or as a Minister, that he was paying people in foreign countries to eat our food. Those people could do without our food. If the Exchequer was at a loss in subsidising the export of food, the Minister was not paying anybody outside this country to eat it. He was exporting it because it would not sell at the price our producers needed to produce the commodity. That is the reason why it cost a subsidy of 10d. a lb., or roughly that, to export our butter.

At the same time as we had that exportable surplus and full market for butter, the Government, in their wisdom and judgment, or for some reason, subsidised the Irish people to eat our butter. Remember it is not a subsidy to the farmer; it is a subsidy to the consumer in this country. The Government paid them 5d. a lb. by way of subsidy to reduce the price of butter.

As Deputy Walsh pointed out, in the month of May last year, on the market in Dublin and in towns throughout the country, the people would not buy New Zealand butter at 3/10 a lb. This morning I was in a grocer's shop in County Wexford. The grocer showed me first-class farmers' butter, mild salt, that he was offering at 3/1 a lb. He said that, although there were very many customers, working-class people, coming into the shop they would not buy a pound of it. They bought the 3/10 creamery butter.

Did you buy any?

I did not require the commodity. I do not require butter, either creamery or farmers', at the moment. I was assured that the butter was first-class quality. The grocer told me he used it himself and had been using it for the past fortnight as it came in. He assured me it was the best and that at 3/1 a lb. the people would not buy it from him.

So what?

It was first-class.

So what?

They did not buy it. That is an indication——

Of what?

——that the people want the dearest and what they consider the best butter. The Minister failed miserably to deal with the surplus of butter that we had last year. He would talk about shortages, I am sure, if he found any. He took office with full and plenty of every single product as a result of the policy of Deputy Walsh when he was Minister for Agriculture over the previous three years.

I will come on to another agricultural product, pigs and bacon. Did anything happen in the last 30 years that was more sad or that showed such lack of appreciation by the Minister for Agriculture than the handling of the surplus of bacon and pigs that we had last year? Nothing that has happened in the history of this House was more degrading to Irish organisation and to a Minister for Agriculture than the mishandling by the Minister of the bacon position last year. Within a month or six weeks of the Government taking office, letters were issued from Government Departments to the bacon factories in this country threatening them that if they did not reduce the price of bacon drastic action would be taken. Was the Minister for Agriculture aware of that at the time?

Following on that the retail price of bacon was fixed and at the same time the price of mill offals, which were always controlled by the Minister for Agriculture, were put up by £4 or £5 a ton. The bacon factories responded within a few weeks as the threats continued and they reduced the price of pigs from, say, £10 to between £7 and £8 per cwt. The result was that hundreds of farmers producing pigs were almost bankrupt in the latter end of last year because of the Minister's action.

In the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture money is provided for the Pigs and Bacon Commission and we wonder what that commission was doing and what the Minister for Agriculture was doing. Had he any concern for the interests of pig producers? In the previous 12 months mill offals were being sold at a fair price that enabled farmers to get a profit. This was due to the management of the offals by the then Minister for Agriculture which enabled farmers to make a profit on pig production. That is not so to-day and it has not been so since August of last year. The Minister should be ashamed to come to this House without a proper explanation as to why it was necessary to reduce the price of pigs without any compensating advantage to the consumers of bacon. The only thing that happened was that the pig producers had their prices reduced anything from £2 to £3 per cwt. while at the same time the price of offals went up from £4 to £5 a ton.

Has the Minister any apology to make to this House in regard to the situation? Is it any wonder the Minister in his opening statement was on the defensive from the very beginning? He did not want any of these matters to be considered, the price of pigs, the price of offals or anything else. The farmer is forced through the price of offals, to subsidise the price of bread and flour. That is what it means. It was to save in subsidy on bread and flour that the price of offals was put up by Government intervention. The more the millers got for wheat offals the less was required to subsidise bread and flour. The Minister should be ashamed that he sat in the Ministry of Agriculture and allowed that to go on, permitting people in pig production in this country to be put out of business. If things go on as they are for another year, there will not be the slightest difficulty in dealing with pig production or with surplus bacon; there will not be one ounce of it to export and it is doubtful if we will have half enough for our own use. The people are going out of pigs and getting rid of sows as fast as they can.

Apart from mill offals having to pay for wheat and flour subsidies there is another Government undertaking which is muscling in. If people come with their lorries to load offals at the mills in Dublin, they are told that if those offals were transported to their town by C.I.E. they could buy the offals for so much a ton less. If that is not muscling in I do not know what is. I would like the Minister to check up on that if he has any interest in seeing that the farmer gets mill offals at a fair price. The Minister's predecessor in office so managed, without expense to the Exchequer, the price of offals from month to month that the farmers and the pig producers were able to get a fair return for their produce. That is no longer happening.

The question of the growing of wheat has been discussed very often inside the last five or six months. When the Minister took office he had something like 500,000 acres of wheat growing in the country and within a few weeks of taking office a campaign started in the organ of the Press supporting the Government, supporting the different groups that form the Government of this country.

Like Mrs. Everywoman in the Evening Press.

There was a campaign because of the big wheat acreage that was sown in the country last year. Even a Congress of the Labour Party that sat in Wexford passed resolutions.

That was the National Convention.

Whatever it was, they passed resolutions which they had on the agenda condemning the growing of so much wheat.

The Deputy could not get his congress to pass any resolution at all.

A campaign was begun about the racketeers who were growing the wheat. The Minister knows very well——

I do not remember the Labour Party passing these resolutions.

I read it on the local papers and when I raised it in this House previously I was not challenged on it.

The Labour Party was never against the growing of wheat.

When I raised the matter before I did not give the name of the paper but I will check up on it and withdraw it if I am not correct. It was discussed at the Labour Party Congress in Wexford, I think, some time at the end of the year. The Minister for Agriculture and all the other groups opposed to wheat-growing in this country can give only one valid reason for the reduction in the price of wheat. That reason was that only racketeers were growing it. I say now that 98 per cent. of the wheat grown last year was grown by farmers who owned their own land. Less than 2 per cent. of the wheat grown was on conacre and the people who grew that wheat were not racketeers. Some of them were farmers' sons and some of them were agricultural labourers.

Queer labourers.

Most of the conacre wheat was grown in two-acre or three-acre lots by small farmers and that wheat was less than 2 per cent. of the total.

Nonsense!

I challenge the Minister to check up on every single acre grown in conacre in Leinster or any other part of the country where wheat was grown. A more despicable campaign was never carried on against the decent farmers of this country than that engaged in by the Minister. It was despicable and the Minister should hang his head in shame for having carried it on. He talks every other day in the House about the freedom which the farmers of this country should enjoy. He talks about their God-given right on their own land. Why, then, should he hold them up to odium by carrying on this unjust campaign? Why reduce the price of wheat at a time when farmers' costs—their rates, the cost of machinery and the cost of everything else they have to buy—had gone up? His reason for it was that racketeers were growing wheat and I say that a more dishonest campaign was never carried on against the people who, in their families' interests and in the general interests of the country, decided to grow wheat.

At the moment farmers are paying higher rates, they are paying more for their manures and more for their machinery than when there was a higher price for wheat. In no single instance have the farmers' costs come down this year. The Minister is well aware of that, and if he wants to know any more about it he has only got to consult his Department officials. Many of the men whom he called racketeers were friends and supporters of his own Party. They were men who owned the land on which they grew the wheat. The Minister has also spoken about a surplus of wheat. Last year we were paying £31 or £32 a ton and now we are importing from the ends of the earth inferior maize at about £30 a ton. Surely wheat is more valuable for stock feeding than maize is and if we had a surplus of wheat the more of it we had the better. We should not be importing maize, barley or any other cereal and until this country gets a Minister for Agriculture with a different outlook we shall make no progress.

The Minister spent a considerable time over the introduction of his Estimate but during that time he never mentioned tillage with the possible exception of his reference to the racketeers who grew wheat. He was not the slightest bit concerned as to whether or not a sufficient amount of wheat, a sufficient amount of beet or of potatoes or of the other things that come from the earth of this country were grown in the country. Every year for the past 12 or 15 years an effort was made through advertisements in the daily papers to encourage the farmers to grow more, but the present Minister for Agriculture has not the slightest concern for what goes on in the fields. We knew the Minister's background and we thought that when he would come to occupy a responsible Ministry he would face things in a different light from the past and that he would realise that the economy of this country needed——

One more cow, one more sow, one more acre under the plough.

——much more tillage crops. We could do with another 1,000,000 acres of tillage and we would not be creating any surplus whatever. If we had a Minister for Agriculture capable of organising the sale and the storage of those crops when they were grown we would be much better off, but we have not got such a Minister, although he talked this year about barley growing. I agree that we should produce all the barley we need for coarse grain so that we would not require to import any maize. I hope that this harvest the Minister will have made some arrangement to take the barley off the farmers' hands. Most of the farmers will use the combine and will have their barley harvested within a couple of weeks, and I hope some provision will be made to provide buyers, or at least to take the barley off farmers' hands within a couple of weeks. Is there any organisation which will do that at short notice?

No. I have told the farmers that there is no prospect of the barley being taken off their hands within a week or two.

Or a month or two months.

Every barrel of the barley will be taken off their hands before the end of the year at not less than 40/- a barrel.

I think it is a shame that the Minister has not made some such arrangement. If the barley is not taken off the farmers' hands at short notice the scheme will break down and the farmers will be at a considerable loss. The biggest part of the crop will be grown in the Leinster counties with perhaps a certain amount in Cork and the greater part of it will be harvested by the combine. It must be in the mill for drying within 48 hours. If there is not some organisation beforehand to take that barley off the farmers' hands a lot of it will become a total loss. I hope we will not have to come in here at the end of the year to complain about that lack of organisation. Between now and the harvest period something should be done. There is the question of sacks. There is the question of cartage and so on. The majority of the farmers who grow barley have no means of either storing or drying it.

The Deputy should advise them to cut it with a reaper and binder and stack it.

Let the Minister go out and tell them that.

The Minister will do what he did with the oats in 1948: feed it to the rabbits.

We remember occasions here when the Minister talked about jailing farmers who used obsolete machines.

I do not remember it.

He talked about the man with the horse and a tin can tied to the horse's tail. He said that man should be locked up in a mental hospital. If the farmers are encouraged by the Minister to buy the most up-to-date machinery, then they are entitled to use that machinery. They have their machinery now. Thousands of pounds have been invested in the purchase of combines. They are there for better or worse. The farmers will use them and it is up to the Minister to make arrangements to take the wheat, or anything else, off the farmers hands when it is cut. I hope I shall not have to advert to that again.

I am telling the Deputy to advise the farmers to cut it with a reaper and binder and stack it.

I am telling the Minister that he will not be here for that.

Deputy Allen cannot say that he was not told in time.

We shifted you before, and we will shift you again.

The farmers do not need advice as to what method they should adopt in harvesting their grain. They are quite capable of harvesting it; and it should be left to the farmer to use whatever method he considers the most advantageous to him.

The reaper and binder may well be to his best advantage.

I hope we have heard the last about the racketeers growing wheat in this country.

I hope we have. We scattered them. They are on their way out.

The Minister can well be ashamed of himself. It was the wheat racketeers who grew the wheat to feed the people during the war, and they did it without any artificial manure.

The Irish farmers fed nobody but themselves and their own.

They fed everyone in the country. They were not called racketeers then. Deputy Dillon, as he then was, had very little sympathy with them. We know his views on other matters, too, and they were not helpful to the nation in time of emergency. However, that is all past and gone now. Eggs are another agricultural product, but the Minister did not even want to mention eggs.

They were 1/9d. per dozen when I came into office.

He said the farmers had priced themselves out of world markets for eggs, for butter, for cheese and almost for bacon. What did he mean by pricing themselves out? We would like him to explain that when he comes to reply.

He does not know.

Is it because of the price they are getting for milk? Is it suggested they should take a lower price for milk delivered to the creameries than they are getting at the moment? We would like an answer to that question. Have they priced themselves out of the market because they are getting 1/4 or 1/5 for milk delivered to the creameries? Have they priced themselves out of the market because of the maize-meal and the maize-corn and the expensive offals which are helping to pay the subsidy on bread and flour? Remember, it is the expensive offals they feed their poultry in order to produce eggs. It might be economic for them to produce eggs to enable them to sell them in some other market. Has the Minister helped in that respect in any way?

When did the bottom fall out of the poultry market?

Has the Minister not sat on one side and permitted another Government Department to put up the price of offals against the egg producer? Was it not that that put the egg producers out of the market and not any act of the egg producers themselves? Only one-third of the eggs produced two years ago are being produced to-day. The Minister may suggest that if eggs are produced in October, November and December the producers will find them economic. I wonder. Consider the present price of offals which the egg producer has to pay in order to save the Exchequer the subsidy on bread and flour.

In what way did the farmers price themselves out of the cheese market? In what way did they price themselves out of the chocolate crumb market? The suggestion at the back of all this is that the farmers should produce milk at the price at which the Minister thinks they should produce it in order to please him. The same is true in relation to eggs and bacon. That is the suggestion irrespective of whether or not it is economic to produce. The Minister knows quite well that agricultural production will decline if the farmers are not getting an economic price for their produce. That is the key to agricultural production.

It is no use the Minister shouting about overproduction of wheat or pigs or butter or cheese or anything else. It is no use his saying the farmers have priced themselves out of the market. Of course he means the British market, though he did not say it in so many words. The farmers want an economic price. They will not produce unless they get an economic price.

In what way have the farmers priced themselves out of the market? The Minister should advise his colleagues in Government that their efforts from day-to-day are putting up costs against the farmers. The farmers have little or no control over their own costs. The industrialist cannot continue in production unless he gets the cost of his raw materials, his wages and his overheads and a selling price which will give him a reasonable profit for his effort and his energy. The efficient farmer is entitled equally to his overhead costs, to his rent and his rates, to fair maintenance for himself and his family and a decent standard of living, plus a selling price which will give him a fair margin of profit for his industry.

As in the case of an industrialist, if he is not getting those he cannot increase output. The Minister is well aware of that and knows that in several respects within the next year agricultural production in this country, unfortunately, will fall sharply. The Minister knows, but he is doing nothing, taking no steps to prevent it. Steps could be taken and what everyone wants—no matter on what side of the House he may be—is to get the largest possible production from the land. I want to say—and it has been said from this side of the House 1,000 times—that the key to increasing production is more tillage. Unless our farmers are prepared to produce crops and given a fair price for them when produced, unless they are given the opportunity and encouragement to increase the tillage acreage by at least another 1,000,000 acres, we will not make the progress desired by everybody.

The Minister concerned himself mainly with cattle production. It is very easy to discuss cattle production at the moment, because I suppose there has not been in the last century a greater boom or higher prices for cattle than we have at the present time—and have had for some time past. On this side of the House we are delighted that the farmers are getting such good prices for their live stock. The only thing wrong is that they have not sufficient live stock to sell. In what way could we have more live stock to sell at home or abroad? That is the problem. I still maintain —and it is our policy, and that is where we differ——

We have more cattle than we ever had before.

—fundamentally from the Minister for Agriculture—that we must get more tillage crops. It is a matter for the Minister and his Department so to organise affairs that the farmers will be enabled to produce more tillage crops and that an organisation will be built up to arrange to market and store those crops that are surplus to the farmers' requirements, whether wheat, beet, oats, barley or potatoes, or any other tillage crops. That is what we lack in this country more than anything else. Thousands of farmers lack storage for their own grain or facilities to hold it for any length of time after the harvest. The Minister is aware of that. What has he done about it? We know there are farm-building schemes, but I suggest to the Minister that there is one direction in which he could bend his energies and those of his Department and direct the money which is being voted to him, and that is by providing much larger grants than he has given up to the moment for the storage of grain on farms and for the purchase, by loan or otherwise, of dryers that will temporarily, at any rate, dry the grain until it is taken off the farmers' hands.

Until that is done we will not have greater production from the land here in cereal crops. Much could be done in that matter if the Minister would get down to it and admit it. We want him to do that because we believe it is in the best interests of agriculture. He is the leader of agriculture at the moment and should give a lead by asking the farmers, and helping them in every possible way, to increase tillage in this country to feed animals and human beings. There is no use in talking about having more live stock until we have food to feed them with. Over 60 per cent. of the live stock of this country is underfed and starved throughout the winter——

Hear, hear! It is true for you.

——because of the fact that we are not producing enough cereals, enough turnips and other food to feed these cattle in the winter months. The Minister talks about better grass——

Silage and hay.

——and we highly approve of better grass and grasslands, but it must be remembered that out of the 12,000,000 acres of arable land we are said to have in this country some 9,000,000 acres are under grass. That will feed our stock for six or seven months of the year, but for about five months they must be fed on something else.

Silage and hay.

They must be fed on something else. We know all about silage and hay and the amount of it you could have, but so long as the Minister will continue to talk of silage and hay we will still have 50 or 60 per cent. of the live stock of this country fed on the most expensive product that is available to-day and it is costing about £8 per cwt.—beef. That is what we are feeding——

Not if they got enough silage and hay.

——to our live stock. The half of them are being fed on beef at £8 per cwt. The Minister and the country could well afford to subsidise farmers to grow tillage crops. It would cost less and be more economic than feeding live stock on beef. When we have half of our live stock starved during the winter for the want of sufficient food we cannot make any progress.

The Minister suggested the other day that it was only necessary for a Shorthorn cow to get hay and a little silage for the winter and that she would live quite well. We can go down through any of the dairying counties at the present moment and the cattle are all out on the grass and the great majority of them are barely able to waddle around. It will be the end of the year before they recover. If the Minister could do something about that——

I doubled the grants for cow-houses.

It is no good for a hungry cow to stand in a house.

It is a good beginning to give her a bit of shelter.

She is as well out as in a house except that she will have the shelter. There will be no progress so long as the cattle are hungry or fed on bad hay. When it comes to July, which we generally find is the wettest month in the year——

You can make silage then.

It will take about another 20 years, with the greatest possible effort, to get all the people who are making bad hay to make good silage.

Not if you will help me.

I shall give all the help I can.

I do not hear you giving much so far.

We want better leadership from the Minister in that respect. We want him to encourage farmers in the dairying counties where the least tillage crops are grown and the largest herds of cows are kept, whatever breed they may be, and where the big majority of them are starved during the winter months, to grow tillage crops. We want the Minister to encourage the farmers in those counties to grow more cereals for the feeding of their stock in the winter. We suggest also that the Minister should double or treble the present amount he has given for the erection of corn lofts for the storage of grain. He should give larger grants to encourage the farmers to erect those grain stores. On every farm where there is none at the moment, the farmer should have his own storage for whatever grain he might have. I suggest the Minister should provide loans at a reasonable rate of interest to enable the farmers to buy dryers where they are going to harvest their grain with a combine.

Would you not buy them a binder and reaper instead?

The Minister always claimed great liberty for the farmers. If I were he I should leave it to their own judgment as to how they would harvest their grain.

They cannot manage their stock without your telling them how to do it, but they can manage their grain.

If the Minister for Lands would cease interrupting me I might be able to proceed with my speech. The production of cattle and the breeds of cattle we should have in this country is a subject that has occupied most of the time since the debate on this Estimate opened. The Minister spent a lot of his time the other day telling us of the great properties of the dairy shorthorn and of the danger that existed of the dairy shorthorn being eliminated. I have always advocated the Shorthorn breed. Almost 20 years ago, when I was a member of a committee of agriculture, I was one of those who succeeded in persuading the committee at that time to give no subsidy in the way of premium to any breed except to the Shorthorn. However, as the personnel of the committee changed in the succeeding years the outlook changed—but, as far back as 20 years ago, I and a couple of others succeeded in doing that.

The Shorthorn is the breed we know best in this country but the Minister should not boast too much about that breed. We know quite well that over the past 20 years the milking properties of the Shorthorn breed have seriously deteriorated because of the kind of breeding that has been in operation. Anyone who keeps a dairy cow or who has anything to do with dairying will know that the big outcry all down the years from Limerick, Cork and Tipperary, where they produce all the cows and the milk—and the Minister is aware of it—has been about the low yield from those cows. As each four or five years passed by, the yield fell. The beef properties of the animals were improving each year but the milking qualities were deteriorating. That was the main and, in fact, the sole reason why the Shorthorn breed came into disfavour with the people who depend mainly on what milk the cow gives for their economy. The calf has improved, if you like, and so has the price which the farmer will get for it. Nevertheless the amount of milk the cow will give over her lactation period is far more important.

No farmer will keep in his herd any cow that is not economic, irrespective of what type of calf she may breed. As a long-term policy, I suggest that the Shorthorn breed is fundamental to our cattle-breeding economy. There is plenty of room for other breeds. For instance, the Friesians will be tried out. I believe they are not the bad and dangerous breed to the cattle industry that the Minister thinks they are. However, that will be found out as time goes by. It is only after ten, 15 or 20 years that we can fully decide whether or not they are suitable from the point of view of breeding for the economy of this country—and that will be decided by the ordinary rank and file of farmers throughout the country.

At the present time, we have a boom in beef production, in stores, and so forth. I want to suggest that the money being spent by committees of agriculture in giving premiums to beef breeds—say, the Hereford or Aberdeen-Angus breeds — should be fully switched and that instead the Minister should help to maintain the Shorthorn breed. I suggest he switch from committees of agriculture whatever money the Department gives in the way of premiums and that no premiums whatever be given in respect of beef breeds from now on. I will defend that suggestion in any place. The Hereford and the Aberdeen-Angus are the two main beef breeds. The societies that control and look after those particular breeds are well able to cater for them. If they want to give them prizes, and so forth, it is up to them to do it, but I think that, with beef prices at their present level, the Minister should switch whatever money is provided by committees of agriculture, or that is available to them, to giving increased premiums to the Shorthorn breed.

I think that is a good idea.

I have always advocated that and, as I have said, I was a member of a committee of agriculture which, 20 years ago, had that in operation. There is much more justification now for that step than there was at that time. This year, the Wexford Committee of Agriculture had experience of having returns made in respect of Shorthorn premium bulls on which the committee were paying a premium. They did not get one-third of the service necessary in order to qualify them to earn that premium. In some instances, they scarcely got any at all. The big change was all towards the Hereford and Aberdeen-Angus. It is an absolute waste of public money to subsidise beef breeds. They are quite capable of looking after themselves at the present time. The money thus spared could be devoted to the Shorthorn breed. The amount would be so small that you could not spread it over all the heifers of the Shorthorn breed but you might supplement it and possibly encourage farmers to keep those earmarked heifers.

I want to suggest, further, that a crisis will arise within the next 12 months or so because of the shortage of in-calf heifers which we shall have in this country. At the moment, a farmer who keeps cattle and who is accustomed to having a number of springing heifers and sending a good number of heifers in the year to service, realises that it would pay him much better to sell those as stores. Therefore, you will have a severe shortage of heifers in calf inside the next couple of years if beef prices remain as high as the are now. The Minister should take note of that now. I do not know what to suggest to him but nevertheless the Minister could——

There is no use in telling me of a difficulty if you have no suggestion to resolve it.

It is the Minister's problem and responsibility and this country is paying him and his Department and he has taken on that responsibility.

You are getting £600 a year yourself tax free. Come on.

I fully appreciate that the Minister is worth ten times what he is getting.

And you are getting free travelling expenses to boot, to give me your advice.

The Minister should not make too many complaints. Any farmer will say when the Minister complains that he is inadequately paid, "Where would you be if you could not take a joke?" The Minister must take a joke, whether it is fair play or not. While he has accepted the Ministry, he must stay there. I hope that in the coming year he will not make as big a mess of it, if we have agricultural surpluses of any kind, as he made in the last.

By the slaughter of calves?

Would the calf over there keep quiet?

God help them, they are upset.

By the Budget.

No Minister will ever be able to operate a firm or rigid cattle breeding policy. The people should be given, what they have and always have had, free choice as to the type of cattle they breed. It is the duty of the Minister so to spend whatever money is made available to him in the direction that he believes is in the best interests of whatever breed is to be maintained as the foundation stock. The Minister can do that with advantage.

I hope that as a result of the establishment of the insemination stations, by the use of bulls of high milk background, the milk yield of the Shorthorns and dairy Shorthorns will improve. I say to the Minister with all respect, that if the milk yield of the Shorthorns does not improve, the Shorthorn is doomed, irrespective of what the Minister can do about it. If the Shorthorn does not give sufficient milk to pay for its keep, it is not worth having in any herd.

I was surprised at the Minister boosting the Shorthorn for the best part of an hour. He suggested that the best way to breed store cattle was to cross with an Aberdeen Angus bull. You are bound to have good stores but that matter could be left to the farmers. They are well aware of that. The unfortunate thing at the moment is that only Aberdeen Angus or Herefords are being bred by the farmers. Eight out of every ten calves in this country are Aberdeen Angus or Herefords. The number of milch cows and heifers that will have calves in the coming year will drop almost to zero unless each farmer in his own herd supplies his own requirements.

You could have a very grave shortage of milk in this country within the next year or two. Instead of increasing our herds and increasing cattle output you will find a very serious depletion because of that fact. It would be good national policy to encourage all cattle owners and all those who have heifers two years old and two and a half years old to put them all to breeding. It would be good national economics. Irrespective of whether they are Herefords, Aberdeen Angus or any other breed, they will all have calves. That is the only way in which we can increase our cattle population.

In connection with the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, I have a suggestion to make. It is a matter that is engaging the attention of all cow owners. Under the Live-stock Breeding Act the Minister controls the licensing of all bulls. All bulls must be licensed under that Act before they can be legally kept by farmers. I believe the Minister has power to make a regulation that no bull can be licensed, even at the local licensing session, until they have passed the T.B. test. Every bull that is given a licence should have passed the T.B. test and there should be a certificate there on the licensing day before they will be examined by the officers of his Department.

The Minister is aware that all bulls shown in Ballsbridge and Cork and the places where the Department select premium bulls must be certified free from tuberculosis.

Not all those examined are found to be free from tuberculosis.

A good percentage of them react and such reactors have been brought to the local markets in the country and farmers have purchased them and have kept them for service. While you are spending public money in trying to eradicate tuberculosis, which is most desirable, you are perpetuating it by licensing bulls that have tuberculosis. It would be quite simple to carry out my suggestion. Possibly, it would not be done immediately but it could be brought in in the next licensing session or next spring. All bulls at service should, in the first instance, before being licensed, be certified free from tuberculosis. They may have been reared at a cow that was full of tuberculosis, which would help to spread it.

Would it not be rather hard to ask a man to pay the veterinary fee to get a bull tested for tuberculosis before he knew the bull would be passed? He may spend two guineas having it tested and then the bull might not pass.

You can include them in the free testing without any trouble. It is quite possible to do so. While we are on the question of bovine tuberculosis I would like to have one matter cleared up. Take a farmer in an area outside the scheduled area. If 30 per cent. of his herd are found to have tuberculosis, is there any scheme for replacing those cows? There is a scheme in operation in Bansha, Sligo, Clare—the intensive areas— whereby cows are replaced. A farmer has made the point to me that one-third of his cows, in a 20 or 30-cow herd, reacted and he was anxious to replace them but could not afford to do it. He wanted to know what the Department would do about it and he asked would any encouragement be given to farmers to replace reactors. That is a matter for consideration by the Minister. It will be a very important matter from now on.

It is a serious matter for the farmer if one-fourth or one-third of his herd react and he has no means of replacing them. If he sells the reactors, he will probably get 50 per cent. of the cost of new heifers, but he cannot afford to buy them.

I suggest to the Minister that, provided such a farmer undertook to maintain a tubercle-free herd, some help should be given, that the reactors should be taken from him and sold and replaced with heifers from Grange or wherever the Department keeps these heifers. I make that suggestion. It may not be feasible but it does seem nonsensical to continue testing herds and finding a good proportion of reactors if the farmer cannot afford to get rid of the reactors and if they remain in the herd.

The farmers are aware of the seriousness of that position. Some farmers can get rid of the reactors but others will not attempt to do so unless there is some incentive given to them. The farmers should be encouraged to get rid of the reactors. That encouragement could be given by replacing the reactors on condition that the farmer would maintain a tubercle-free herd. I do not know whether it is possible or not but something might be done in that direction.

There is one other type of live stock with which the Minister might concern himself. It seems that now and in the foreseeable future we are going to get good prices for meat of all types except pig meat. It looks as though we are going to get an economic price for beef and mutton. In regard to mutton, there are more possibilities for increasing our total live-stock production than in regard to cattle. A big increase in cattle might create its own problem but even a doubling of our present flocks of sheep will create no problem whatsoever. We should be able to provide the food for them and it should be the Minister's policy to increase the total and to encourage stock owners to increase their numbers of breeding sheep. We could thus within 12 months increase our total amount of mutton and we would also have the wool for which we have a very good dollar market.

It would be a great advantage to this country if a campaign were carried on now, which is the proper time of the year for it. There has, admittedly, been an increase in the flocks over the last two years but there is still plenty of room even to double our existing flocks and we will get a substantially increased income for the country by doing that and doing it in a short time. I throw out that suggestion to the Minister and I hope he will adopt it because it would be of advantage to the agricultural community.

The Minister told the House about the increase in the value of cattle and sheep over 1948. He valued the whole of the cattle at £40 a head and the sheep at £7. I think he overshot the mark very much because the average value of all our live-stock cattle would not be £40 a head any day of the year; neither would sheep average £7. When the Minister is trying to boast he should be a little more careful about his figures and not exaggerate by any more than double what the amounts were.

The Minister also went back on the old device of describing the conditions under which he assumed office in 1948. I had hoped that with three years in office and three out of it the Minister would have grown up and that he would not engage in the childish pranks he was engaged in six years ago. When he took over the Ministry he was young and over-enthusiastic. He made a lot of wild statements. The very first time he introduced the Vote for Agriculture I think he made a statement about the condition of the country when he took over. It was most unjust and the Minister knew it quite well.

It was the literal truth.

It was most unjust the way he spoke about the cattle stocks, the sheep and pig stocks and the condition of the land.

Read it out.

I have not got it here with me.

Get it and read it.

I think every time the Minister reads it a blush of shame will come to his cheek.

No, there will not. It was the gospel truth.

It is not worth while going back on it now.

What about your own record?

The Deputy is only a baby in the House and he should not talk. The Minister went back on this Estimate again about the condition in which he found the country and about all he did to improve it. He was going to drown the British in eggs, to choke them with butter and I do not know what else.

You have lost a lot of the time of the House talking about cattle.

Deputy Deering should not interrupt. He will get every opportunity of making his own statement.

There will be ample opportunity for Deputy Deering to say what he has to say much more intelligently than I have done. I can assure him I will not interrupt and I will have manners while he is speaking.

I am a friend of the Minister.

We will get back to the Minister. I suggest in all honesty that when the Minister came to the House the other day he should have given an account of his stewardship over the last year. He did not do that; he was on the defensive in every respect because he realised that he made a mess of things during the last year when he had surpluses of every single item of agricultural produce. Surpluses were left to him by his predecessor in office and he failed to handle them. There was one occasion before when the Minister was faced with a surplus because of his own propaganda, and that was a surplus of oats. He betook himself to the furthest parts of America so that he would avoid the criticism and the furore that would envelop him. He did not want to face the farmers at that time. He failed to market that surplus or to help the farmers who produced it to market it and he should be the last one to talk about conditions.

The Minister took over this country in 1948 after two or three of the worst famine years in our history as far as weather and crops were concerned. He took over at a time when well over 100,000 head of cattle had died because of weather conditions. He took over after seven years of a world war when there was famine and scarcity all over the world.

Economic war, you mean.

The Parliamentary Secretary was at the sucking bottle stage when the economic war came along. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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