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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1955

Vol. 151 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Health.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £6,994,160 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1956, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard Chláraitheora), and certain Services administered by that Office including Grants to Local Authorities, Miscellaneous Grants and Grants-in-Aid.

The Estimate now before the House is, in round figures, £1,100,000 less than what was voted for health for 1954-55. For fear that some Deputies, misunderstanding the position, might be tempted to make incorrect assumptions because of this saving to the taxpayer, let me say at the outset that if we have been able to cut the Estimate by over £1,000,000, this does not imply any lowering of standards in the health services in the coming year. As the House and the country is aware, the improvement and expansion of health services is one of the stated objects of Government policy. Provision is, in fact, included for an increase of £160,000 in grants to the health authorities towards the cost of the services which they will provide. The reduction for the coming year will be found in the Grants-in-Aid of the Hospitals' Trust Fund. Again, this does not mean that I have cut down on the hospital building programme in the slightest.

The amount needed by way of Exchequer subvention to that fund had been overestimated since 1953-54 when the Exchequer first came to the relief of the fund. In that year the overestimate on a provision of £4,500,000 was £1,600,000. In the year just passed, the Estimate provision was £3,500,000 and the amount required was £2,000,000 representing a saving of £1,500,000 approximately. The reasons why there was this consistent overestimation are threefold. One reason is that there has been, fortunately, a continuing improvement in income from the sweepstakes. The second reason is that there has been some delay in the completion of and payment for the building works in progress. Finally, some of the large new hospital building projects, despite the most strenuous efforts, have started later than was anticipated. These three factors have all operated to reduce the demand on the Exchequer for hospital building but the building programme has remained unaltered and it will go ahead without the deletion of any item and without any avoidable delay. For 1955-56, I have aimed at a more realistic Estimate of what the taxpayer must provide to augment the Hospitals Trust Fund—and this is why the Estimates volume shows a reduction of £1,250,000 on the appropriate sub-head; but even at the reduced figure, the provision is £250,000 higher than the amount which was actually required in 1954-55.

As is customary on these occasions, I propose to give to the House some of the main vital statistics for recent years. The figures which I will quote for 1954 are provisional, but those for earlier years are final.

The birth rate for 1954 was 21.1 per 1,000 of the population compared with 21.2 per 1,000 for 1953. The marriage rate was 5.4 per 1,000 of the population the same as for 1953. There was a slight increase in the death rate for 1954. It advanced to 12.1 per 1,000 of the population, from 11.8 for 1953, but the 1953 figure was the lowest death rate ever recorded for this country.

Infant mortality fell from 39 per 1,000 births in 1953 to 38 in 1954. The maternal mortality rate was 1.05 per 1,000 births, both these rates being the lowest ever recorded in this country.

The death rate for T.B. has again fallen. The figure for 1954 was 35 per 100,000 population. This compares with 40 for 1953 and is less than half the rate recorded as recently as 1951, when the figure was 73 per 100,000 of population.

The cancer death rate dropped slightly in 1954—to 145.6 per 100,000, compared with 147.1 in 1953. This reduction is not, of course, sufficient to lessen our concern about the cancer problem. While the full solution of this problem must await the result of research being carried on in countries better equipped than ours to organise it, I may say that we are fortunate in acquiring in recent years one of the best equipped cancer hospitals in Europe—St. Luke's Hospital, Rathgar, which is run by the Cancer Association of Ireland.

With the exception of diphtheria, deaths from which increased from three in 1953 to five in 1954, and gastroenteritis, which caused 172 deaths in 1954, practically the same number as in 1953, the figures for other infectious diseases showed an improvement on those recorded for 1953. There were 32 deaths from whooping cough compared with 61 for 1953; one from typhoid, compared with four in 1953; 15 from poliomyelitis as against 33 in 1953; and 179 from influenza, compared with 432 in 1953. Deaths from measles dropped from 36 to 30, and there were two deaths from scarlet fever—one fewer than in the previous year.

I think that the House will agree that the general picture shows some improvement in that we are securing a reduction in the avoidable causes of death. This has been accompanied with a decline in the incidence of infectious diseases and, while some of the credit for this must go to the advance in medical science and to improvements in living conditions, a good deal is due to improved health services and to increased willingness on the part of the public to avail of them.

The local authorities have maintained their health services at a reasonably high level during the past year, and in that period a number of improvements have been brought about in various important aspects of those services. Considerable progress has, for example, been made in hospital building, and we have seen, or we shall very shortly see, the opening of some of the major hospitals which have been in steady progress for a considerable time past. I will give some details of these projects later. As regards the general medical services, one development particularly useful to the public is the functioning of an appreciable number of the county clinics. These are now in being in Roscommon, North Cork, Offaly, Mayo, Tipperary (North Riding), Kerry, Meath, Donegal, Cavan and Longford. Building work on five other county clinics is almost completed and the construction of four other of these important buildings will start soon. Planning on about half-dozen more is still proceeding.

The intention, as the House is aware, is that a wide range of specialist services will be provided in these clinics. Already a good start has been made and, in general, specialist medical, surgical, ophthalmic, T.B., orthopaedic, obstetric and psychiatric clinical sessions are held in them at regular intervals and arrangements are in train for making available at the clinics other specialist services.

A further important step in the development of adequate specialist services at provincial level was the conversion to permanent status of temporary posts of regional orthopaedic surgeon and regional radiologist. Experience has shown that some revision of the regions, as previously constituted experimentally, was necessary and such revision has been made. In addition, the appointments made are sufficiently flexible to further adjust the regions if that should be necessary at a later date. Local pathological services are also in course of development. A full-time pathologist has been recently appointed at St. Kevin's Hospital and an appointment of a pathologist to take charge of the pathological department in St. Finbarr's Hospital in Cork will shortly be made. It is intended that when these pathologists will have reorganised and brought to a high level of efficiency the services in the hospitals to which they have been appointed, they will set about developing pathological services for local authorities in the surrounding regions in the same way as such services are being developed in the western region based on the Galway Central Hospital laboratory specialist staffs. It is hoped to make a start soon in other areas. One of the obstacles in our way is the scarcity of trained laboratory technicians. During the year four students who completed their training in the laboratory at Galway Central Hospital have taken up duty as laboratory technicians—two in Galway, one in Sligo County Hospital, and the fourth in St. Patrick's Chest Hospital, Castlerea.

I regard this development of specialist services at local levels as of the greatest importance in the provision of adequate health services. There are, of course, certain specialities which can, and should, be developed only at the main centres of medical training; but there is a range of services which it would be economic and sound medical practice to develop in every county on a regional basis so as to provide for ready access to them on the part of every citizen, and it will be my endeavour, consistent with the maintenance of the highest scientific level of services, to make arrangements accordingly.

The arrangements for administering anaesthetics in connection with local authority health services have been examined carefully over a period and local authorities have now been urged to have fully qualified and experienced anaesthetists available wherever a fully satisfactory anaesthetic service is not already in existence. I have suggested to those authorities that where the existing arrangements are not up to the desired standard, posts of anaesthetist should be created on conditions and terms which I have outlined to them. It is not generally appreciated how much the science of anaesthetics has developed in recent years and how much this development has contributed to the treatment of conditions hitherto regarded as untreatable. It is no longer good practice to rely on the services of the young house surgeon in training. By the appointment of specialist anaesthetists as proposed, the quality of the services provided in the county hospitals, already good, should be further improved.

I have also agreed to revised and improved conditions of appointment for county surgeons. All existing incumbents were allowed the right to opt for the new conditions and a number of them have already done so. The surgeons may, in future, engage in private practice outside the county hospitals, as consultants, provided that such consultant practice will not interfere with the efficient performance of their duties as county surgeon. I am also considering proposals which, if adopted, should achieve uniform conditions of service for county physicians.

In the Dublin area, the improvement of the services at St. Kevin's Hospital continues. A permanent whole-time pathologist, as I have already mentioned, took up duty in that hospital recently. A maternity unit containing approximately 80 beds and 80 cots was opened in St. Kevin's last summer. This unit is in charge of a highly qualified obstetrician-gynaecologist, assisted by a consultant paediatrician and other necessary medical staff. The former fever hospital premises in Cork Street have been renovated and are now being used to house chronic ambulent male patients from St. Kevin's. The development of a permanent home for ambulent aged or otherwise incapacitated patients at Ballymun is still under discussion with the authorities of St. Kevin's and substantial agreement should soon be reached.

All this is in conformity with the plan to transform St. Kevin's into a first-class general hospital. Much still remains to be done by way of demolition of unsuitable and redundant buildings but the end of the job is already in sight. A whole section of the hospital is now completely renovated and the next year should show a dramatic change in appearance. What is more important, however, is that the level of service to the sick poor of Dublin afforded in this hospital has kept pace with the structural changes; and with the further improvements contemplated, the Dublin Board of Assistance should have every reason to congratulate itself. The emphasis which has been given to this hospital has been the subject of criticism in the past. There is a good reason for this emphasis in that while the Dublin voluntary hospitals can be selective as to the type of patient they will accept and retain—and I am not saying this by way of criticism of the excellent services which these hospitals provide —St. Kevin's must accept, treat and retain every poor patient referred to it and thus fills a most important role in our health services in Dublin and district.

I would like at this point to mention that the excellent maternity unit consisting of 28 beds in St. Colmcille's Hospital, Loughlinstown, was not fully used during the past year. This is a first-class unit, competently staffed and fully equipped to deal with any emergency. I am surprised, in view of the pressure of beds in the Dublin maternity hospitals, that the facilities which it offers are not being used to the extent to which they should be and I would urge doctors in practice in the area to visit the hospital and see for themselves the facilities available to them for their patients. If they do so, I have no doubt that the unit will be fully used in future.

I have mentioned the satisfactory progress which is being maintained in the reduction of the death rate from T.B. An extra 110 beds were provided for T.B. patients during the past 12 months, bringing the total number in the country to approximately 6,900. We shall soon have an appreciable number of first-class beds added to these. The Dublin Regional Sanatorium at Blanchardstown will take its first patients in the near future, and the Southern Regional Sanatorium, near Cork, will follow suit shortly afterwards. Since the Department of Health was established one of the main concerns in the field of T.B. was to see that adequate bed accommodation was provided and we are now in the happy position that there is virtually no waiting list in any county, with the result that a person unfortunate enough to contract T.B. can get into hospital without delay if he or she needs hospital treatment. With the opening of the regional sanatoria it will be possible to discard certain hospital accommodation not up to first-class standard and to allow the reversion for other necessary purposes of certain other accommodation. The Department and the health authorities can now, therefore, turn their attention in greater degree to the improvement in the field services for dealing with this disease. A great deal has already been done in these directions; but I hope that we shall be able to intensify our efforts in the near future.

It is good to be able to record that we have reached this position in dealing with the scourge of T.B.; but it is my duty to stress that we have no grounds at all for complacency. Our death rate here is still much too high—it is half as high again as in Northern Ireland and in Scotland and the number of new cases coming to the notice of health authorities in recent years shows little or no reduction. We cannot afford to relax our vigilance, nor to eschew the excellent facilities which are widely available throughout the country for the prevention and diagnosis, as well as the treatment of T.B. I would appeal, therefore, to the public in general to utilise these facilities which are available to everybody without cost. I would ask, especially, those who have charge of children, adolescents and young men and women to see to it that these very important members of our community look after their general health and make the fullest use of the chest X-ray service and the B.C.G. vaccination service. These are the two most important weapons in our defence against this disease. There is no excuse for those who do not make use of these weapons.

Not so many years ago a chest X-ray involved a journey to the county town and the cost of the X-ray plate was relatively considerable. Now, thanks to a highly developed mass-radiography service, the X-ray apparatus is brought into factories and schools, into halls and market squares in the smaller towns and even to the country cross roads, and all that is involved in availing of the service is to walk into a room or a coach, and stand, without undressing or other discomfort, for a moment in front of the apparatus and the operation is over. The miniature film costs little to take or to processand, incidentally, nothing to the person X-rayed—but it shows up the presence of T.B. in the lungs even at the early stages when the disorder is most easily cured. The B.C.G. procedure is almost as readily available and involves no more discomfort than would be involved in a few mild pin scratches and for this the person vaccinated gets a high degree of immunity against T.B. infection.

Every new case of T.B. is the result of infection by a person already suffering from the disease, and I feel that the stage has now been reached when it should be the duty of the medical staffs of health authorities to make as determined an effort, whenever a new case comes to light, to trace the infector as they do to trace the source of a case, for example, of typhoid. We now have the knowledge and the weapons to enable us to combat this disease, which in the past has taken such dreadful toll of the lives and the happiness of our people, and I hope, in the current year, to present to health authorities a proved method of dealing with the problem on a systematic basis; but in the last analysis the success of any public health operation depends on the degree of co-operation forthcoming from the community. I would, therefore, appeal to every Deputy in the House to do his utmost to develop an informed public opinion so that we may achieve maximum benefit from our efforts. Such an informed public opinion should encourage the use by young and old of the mass-radiography service and the use of B.C.G. vaccination for children and young adults.

During the year a good deal was done to improve facilities for those suffering from mental ill-health. The present building programme, which will run for the next four years, includes the provision of eight new admission units, 12 nurses' homes, and a staff home at district hospitals. At Portrane Mental Hospital 248 beds are being provided in two new units, the first of which will be available very soon, and work has started on supplying separate accommodation for 20 child patients. Work is going ahead at Grangegorman on the provision of accommodation for 80 patients. The programme also includes the provision of infirmaries at Ardee and Cork Mental Hospitals and a number of extensive schemes of reconstruction. Sanitary, mechanical and heating services are also included in the programme.

The number of out-patients' clinics established under the Mental Treatment Act, 1945, continues to increase. Seventy-seven such clinics were in operation during the past year. At these clinics some 900 sessions were held and the attendances of patients numbered approximately 4,750.

The improvements scheduled in the building programme over the next few years should bring about substantial betterment in the overcrowded conditions in a number of mental hospitals, which have been a matter of serious concern to me. I should explain in this connection that the coming into force of the Mental Treatment Act, 1945, with its facilities for the reception of voluntary and temporary patients and for the development of active psychiatric treatment, has given a great impetus to the treatment of mental disease in the early stages, when the prospects of recovery are most favourable. These welcome developments have added substantially to the accommodation problem in our mental hospitals. The rate of receptions of patients since the Act came into force has increased enormously.

To give an example, 5,500 patients, in round figures, were received during the year 1953 as against a total of 3,000 in the year 1947—an increase of over 80 per cent. Another factor which has added to accommodation difficulties is the great increase in the number of old people in the mental hospitals. The proportion of people over 65 years in the mental hospitals in 1953 was more than double the proportion amongst the population as a whole. The increase in the number of old people in mental hospitals may be attributed to a substantial extent to the tendency on the part of young people to shirk their responsibilities towards aged relatives. Discharges of patients have increased to a satisfactory degree—but admissions have gained over the number of patients leaving, and the net effect has been to increase, only temporarily, I hope, the populations in the hospitals.

The facilities and accommodation available in district mental hospitals have been the subject of unfavourable comment recently. As I have indicated, I myself have been fully conscious of this for some time past and I have established a small expert committee (not a commission as has been erroneously stated) consisting of representatives of the county managers, county medical officers of health, resident medical superintendents of mental hospitals and my Department, to consider the problem of overcrowding and to make recommendations to me as to the practical steps which can be taken to relieve such overcrowding, having due regard, of course, to our financial resources.

There has been a considerable amount of criticism of the increase in the amount which the Dublin Corporation now contributes to the Dublin voluntary hospitals towards the cost of providing hospital treatment for poor persons resident in Dublin, and some of the critics have suggested that I am responsible for this increase.

The position is that until the Health Act, 1953, came into force, Dublin Corporation, as such, did not have any responsibility for the provision of such treatment for those in the lower income group except in regard to T.B. and fevers. The responsibility rested on the Dublin Board of Assistance. This board did, of course, provide free treatment for the poor in its own hospital—St. Kevin's—but did not pay anything towards the cost of treating poor persons in Dublin who went to the voluntary hospitals unless they had been admitted at the board's request. The voluntary hospitals, in catering for Dublin's sick poor, were really supplying a service for Dublin which in other counties was provided by the appropriate local authority. This position continued until 1946, when the corporation were persuaded to make a regular contribution to the Dublin voluntary hospitals towards the cost of treating the poor resident in Dublin. The corporation's contribution was the produce of 1/- in the £ on the rates, and in current times this would give the voluntary hospital a little less than half what would be yielded by the approved capitation rate which local authorities in general were paying to extern institutions for the treatment of patients for whom they were responsible.

When the Health Act, 1953, came into force the Dublin Corporation, as a health authority, became directly responsible for providing institutional and specialist services under Section 15 of that Act. From the 1st August, 1954, the corporation has paid the voluntary hospitals at the approved rate of 16/- per bed day for patients treated by those hospitals free of charge or paying a nominal amount. I want to emphasise that this change is a direct result of the Health Act, 1953, and would not have taken place if that Act or similar legislation had not been enacted.

In addition, the Dublin Corporation and all other local authorities are now being called upon to provide for the hospital care and treatment of insured persons—a charge that was previously borne entirely by the Exchequer. This has meant that in respect of the hospitalisation of such persons in the voluntary hospitals each local authority must now pay a sum of £5 12s. per person per week—the exact payment which prior to 1st April last was borne by the Exchequer in complete indemnity of the Dublin Corporation and all other local authorities. Again, this charge takes place because of the provisions of the Health Act, 1953, and would not have taken place if that Act or similar legislation had not been enacted.

There are certain other aspects of the operation of the Health Acts which call for comment here. In lieu of the red ticket and the white ticket under the public Assistance Act, 1939, issued by a home assistance officer or warden entitling a poor person to the services of the district medical officer, there is now, since 1st August last, provision for the issue of a medical card, evidencing the right of the holder and his dependents to medical services from the dispensary doctor on all occasions during the currency of the card. In notifying health authorities of the revised arrangements, I suggested that application forms should be made freely available in places where people entitled to have such cards issued to them would be likely to have access to them and that other arrangements should be made to publicise the new system.

The response from the eligible classes has been extremely slow. In the whole of the former public assistance district of Balrothery only 34 persons had, on a recent date, had cards issued in respect of them. In certain dispensary districts only a handful of persons have got cards. I do not know what the explanation is. I am assured that in most areas practically all applications were dealt with promptly and that nobody who would formerly have got a "ticket" is refused a "card". Despite the advantages which have been urged in favour of the new system less than 10 per cent. of the population is covered by cards already issued although it has been accepted for years that a third of the population is entitled to free medical assistance. It is only recently that this position came to my notice and I am seeking from each health authority fuller information.

From 1st October last, the scheme of allowances for disabled persons has been in operation. The determination of the eligibility of applicants has been unduly slow. I can appreciate that in certain cases the chief medical officer, who is the certifying officer as to medical disability, would be reluctant to take a decision which might have the effect of awarding a pension for life without adequate medical evidence and the arrangement for obtaining such evidence varied from place to place, depending on local circumstances. I suggested to health authorities some time back that if there was likely to be delay in medical assessment, the means investigation should be proceeded with in advance. In certain areas there has been delay in dealing with applications but I am satisfied that the delay arose out of difficulties inherent in any new scheme and that in a short time the scheme will be operating smoothly.

Neither the Minister for Social Welfare nor I was satisfied, however, with the attitude of certain local authorities who regarded the new scheme of allowances as a means of saving money on the home assistance account and we informed health authorities, which, in general, are also home assistance authorities, accordingly. The Minister for Social Welfare has, in addition, made an Order which makes it clear that the first 10/-, at least, of a maintenance allowance will be ignored in considering the grant of home assistance. I hope that, as a result, we will not have, in the future, a repetition of the parsimonious attitude which we have seen in some cases up to the present. It was not the intention of this House, or the Oireachtas in general, that payment of these allowances should result in automatic disqualification for home assistance and I am sure that Deputies who are members of local authorities will use every opportunity to ensure that effect is given to the object of the scheme.

There has been a tendency in certain areas to lay down a rigid means scale in regard to eligibility for services for the lower income group and to say that anybody outside that standard by as much as 1/- a week would be ineligible. I have no objection to a scale for determining that a person is eligible, but I am not prepared to agree that any applicant should be turned down on the basis of such a scale, and I have informed the responsible officers of local authorities that before any application is refused all the surrounding circumstances of the family must be taken into account. I hope that as a result there will be less grounds for complaint in the future.

As from 1st August last, there was provision for a free choice of doctor for maternity care for women in the lower income group. It was hoped to secure that every such woman could go to the doctor of her choice and get from him, under the scheme, complete ante-natal and post-natal care and attendance at her confinement if necessary. In an effort to overcome differences which had arisen concerning this scheme, I met the representatives of the medical profession prior to the 1st August last and reached agreement as to the nature of the services to be provided and as to the fees to be paid to participating doctors. The schemes is working satisfactorily enough in most areas although in places some doctors—even dispensary doctors—are not coming forward. I fear that this reluctance to participate on the part of these doctors is to some extent occasioned by the attitude of certain members of some health authorities whose publicly expressed hostility towards their medical staffs has done little to inspire confidence in the minds of the doctors on whose co-operation the success of the scheme depends.

This scheme is not compulsory on anyone—either on the doctor who is expected to work it or the patient who is expected to benefit by it. It is a voluntary scheme and as such depends for its success on support, goodwill and co-operation from all. I only hope, therefore, that there will be an end to the wrangling and disputing which has taken place about this matter and that this worthwhile service will operate henceforth in an atmosphere of goodwill. To my mind, nothing is less calculated to secure the co-operation of local authority medical staff than the placing of pistols to their heads. I have no doubt that, given a reasonable attitude on the part of local authorities, the maternity scheme will in a short time be operating satisfactorily. The attitude of mistrust on the part of the medical profession which in recent years has been a characteristic of relations with local authorities is changing, and I deprecate strongly action on the part of any section of the community which would tend to revive the old bad feelings of hostility and suspicion.

The present year will be an important milestone in the progress towards the achievement of an adequate standard of hospitalisation facilities in the country. It will witness the coming into functional operation of some of the more important projects provided for under the hospital building programme, namely, the regional sanatoria of 516 and 404 beds in Dublin and Cork respectively, to which I have already referred, the general regional hospitals at Limerick and Galway and the Children's Hospital, Crumlin. By the end of the year we will have reached the stage that about two-thirds of the hospital building programme undertaken from 1949 on onwards will have been completed and works involving some further 400 beds will be in progress. In addition, some of the remaining important building projects on the programme, namely, the new St. Vincent's and St. Laurence's Hospitals and Cork Regional Hospital, have reached an advanced stage of planning and I am hopeful that building operations will be under way before long.

The Dublin and Cork Regional Sanatoria and the Limerick Regional Hospital of 278 beds have recently been opened and I expect that the Galway Regional Hospital will be functioning before the end of the present year. It is also expected that the 304-bed Children's Hospital at Crumlin will be ready in the current year. An 80-bed genito-urinary unit at the Meath Hospital, Dublin, should be available shortly. In the field of orthopaedics I expect that the new 133-bed hospital at Gurranebraher, Cork, will be opened shortly. A nurses' home catering for 239 nurses serving the Mater Hospital, Dublin, was opened during the year.

A new 34-bed district hospital at Cahirciveen is nearing completion. Work is in progress on county hospitals at Letterkenny (90 beds) and Dundalk (100 beds) and on a 30-bed district hospital at Dungloe. It is expected that building operations will commence within the next few months at Bantry (37 extra beds and improvements of the facilities available at the hospital), at Carndonagh (31 beds) and later in the year on a new 70-bed county hospital at Longford.

Since the building programme was undertaken about 300 maternity beds have been provided—representing about 40 per cent. of the programme envisaged. I have mentioned the 80-bed maternity unit provided at St. Kevin's Hospital. An extension providing for 30 beds at the Rotunda Hospital, Dublin, is almost completed. Work has commenced on a 60-bed Regional Maternity Hospital at Limerick and on projects involving about 30 more beds in local authority hospitals at Letterkenny, Dungloe, and Baltinglass. Satisfactory progress is being made with the planning of the new 144 maternity bed Coombe Hospital.

I have already referred to what is being done in regard to mental hospitals. About one-third of the 830 new beds budgeted for in the current programme have been provided. While with the completion of that programme coupled with the schemes of renovations and improvements undertaken by a number of mental hospital authorities much will have been achieved, a considerable amount remains to be done and I am giving special consideration to the problem of mental hospital accommodation in the formulation of the next building programme.

Considerable progress has been made with the programme to provide proper institutional facilities for mental defectives. During the present year a 280-bed extension at St. Mary's, Drumcar; a 180-bed institution at St. Raphael's, Celbridge, and 180-bed extension at Our Lady of Good Counsel, Cork, will become available to receive patients. The conversion of Glenmaroon House, Dublin, into an institution for 200 mentally defective girls is almost completed. In addition, I anticipate that a further 80 beds will shortly be available at Stewart's Hospital, Palmerstown, while portion of a 240-bed extension at St. Joseph's, Clonsilla, should be ready by the autumn. When all these projects have been completed almost 1,400 additional beds will have been made available for mental defectives—which represents an increase of about 100 per cent. on the accommodation available before the programme was undertaken. The provision of two further institutions at Delvin and Sligo is being undertaken and planning is in progress. It is proposed that these institutions will provide 500 additional beds.

I have already mentioned the progress made with the provision of county clinics. In so far as dispensaries are concerned 72 new buildings have been completed in the course of the last three years. It is anticipated that a further 80 new premises will be completed this year which means that satisfactory progress is being made towards the goal of replacing unsatisfactory dispensary premises throughout the country.

I now come to the question of the future of the health services. My first concern will be to improve existing services to the maximum extent practicable. Over the years the quality of the services provided has improved enormously. The general practitioner services provided by our health authorities have been, in general, excellent. The general practitioner service is the backbone of any health service, State, local authority, or private, but the general practitioner in our local authority service must be given the necessary tools. Already there has been considerable improvement in dispensary premises and dispensary equipment and the present programme provides for still greater improvement. The dispensary doctor is now provided to a much greater extent than heretofore, and in more accessible form, with the specialist backing he needs and that backing is being further improved, as I have already mentioned when dealing with local specialist services. I include, of course, under that head, the services provided in the county hospitals. There is also available the specialist backing provided at the teaching centres which I hope will be even more readily available in the future.

I regard as a higher priority the development of the preventive services. Immunisation and vaccination services, as I pointed out to all health authorities when I visited them last September, are of the utmost importance in keeping our population healthy. Luckily we have escaped the outbreaks of smallpox which have occurred practically on our doorstep in recent years, but we must be in a state of preparedness to deal with an outbreak should it occur here and the need for vaccination against smallpox has not abated one iota because it is no longer compulsory. The success of the campaign for diphtheria immunisation by reducing the incidence and the created a misplaced feeling of complacency in the population as a whole. I am advised that the relative immunity from this disease which we now enjoy will continue only so long as we can keep a high proportion of our children immunised and I propose to continue our efforts to induce parents to see that their children are afforded the protection which immunity gives.

My third great objective in the matter of immunisation is to secure that every child and young adult is given the protection of B.C.G. vaccination. If Deputies will glance at the cost of T.B. hospital services in the details of sub-head H in Part III of the Estimate, they will see that this service alone is costing us nearly £2,000,000 this year. To this must be added a further sum of £596,000 for infectious diseases maintenance allowances— mainly in respect of T.B. This bill of over £2,500,000 a year for the treatment of T.B. is staggering and could be reduced considerably in future years by the use of B.C.G. Surely on narrow grounds of public expense alone, to say nothing of the wider implications of broken lives, shattered homes, untold personal and family misery and the loss to the national economy, it behoves us to leave no stone unturned in our development of the preventive service.

My next objective is the protection of the health of children, and for this purpose to ensure that facilities are available to correct defects and to ensure that all reasonable steps are taken to make sure that he or she grows up to healthy manhood or womanhood. In the child welfare clinics which now, by law, must be established in every town of over 3,000 population, the opportunity is provided to have periodic, regular checks-up on health. If proper use is made of the clinics, much illness in childhood and later can be prevented. While there is a statutory obligation to provide child welfare clinics in every town with a population of 3,000, there is no barrier to the establishment of similar clinics in smaller centres of population and I would strongly urge on health authorities that they should not confine themselves to their statutory obligations in this respect. I cannot emphasise too strongly that a good clinic service will pay an immediate dividend to the rate-payers and the taxpayers of this country. I have recently issued a comprehensive circular to health authorities as to the nature of these clinics and I hope that these authorities will give every encouragement to their medical staffs in the development of this service.

In rural districts, the provision of child welfare clinics will not be feasible but there is another means by which the health of children in these areas can be safeguarded. I refer to the suggestion which I made to health authorities when I visited them in the autumn that they should, as opportunity offers in each area, appoint a qualified general trained nurse who would, in addition to providing appropriate care for sick children, act as guide and friend to mothers of young families. Seeing the children regularly in their home environment, she would be in a particularly favoured position to note the signs of incipient disorders and could advise the mothers on the means available to them to have such disorders remedied before they develop. There is a host of other ways in which she could help.

I am not suggesting that the nurse should take the place of the doctor in the medical care of children but there are many points about which a mother might be in doubt which she would not regard as of sufficient importance to justify a visit to the doctor but which she would be willing to put before the nurse. Most of us are familiar with the work of the Jubilee nurse. These nurses have been doing excellent work in the areas in which they operate and the suggestion which I have made to local authorities is that they should put into districts where there is no Jubilee or Lady Dudley nurse the equivalent of such nurse, with this difference that the new nurse would concern herself as much with the maintenance of health as with the care of those who are sick. Already in the districts where the local authorities have appointed district nurses, reports on the value of their work in the preventive field are most encouraging.

In the making of such nursing appointments, I am making a break with tradition. Up to the present the public health nurse has been appointed to the county but the practice has grown up of attaching her to the chief medical officer's office at a central point in the county, from which she goes out daily to do her duties, returning each night to her base. The practice has been to appoint the midwife to a particular district to which she remains attached for the remainder of her service unless she competes for, and is successful at a competition for appointment to another district. I do not regard either of these procedures as satisfactory. The present public health nurse is too far removed from contact with the people and, as regards the midwife, it is, I feel, undesirable that the officer who is becoming less active should have to remain in a large scattered district where long travelling taxes her energies.

Consequently, I propose that the new district nurse should be appointed to the county but assigned initially to the particular district in which the new vacancy has occurred. When vacancies occur in other districts in the county, the existing nurses would have the right to transfer, in order of seniority, if they so wished, so that in the course of time a nurse would automatically find herself in the district most suited to her age and which she regarded as most desirable. This procedure should not result in too frequent changes and it should make for a happier and, consequently, a better service.

I now come to the school child. The school health examination service has now been in operation for many years, but it has not been wholly satisfactory. Visits of the schools medical officers have been made only at long intervals, and while in most counties a child is now seen about three times in the course of school life, many conditions of ill-health can develop in between the visits of the schools medical officer and not be detected or dealt with at a sufficiently early stage. I have now recommended strongly to every health authority that it should overhaul its system so as to ensure that every school is visited at least once a year. At each annual visit, the schools medical officer would see all children who had commenced school that year, a group of children midway through their school course and those expected to leave at the end of the then current school year. In addition, and this is most important, he would see children who missed the school medical examination because of absence the previous year and also all children to whom his attention was drawn by parents or by teachers as well as children whom he had noted for re-examination on the occasion of his previous visit.

The implementation of these arrangements would mean, in many counties, the appointment of an additional assistant county medical officer; but the money involved would be money well spent, saving lives perhaps but certainly obviating later ill-health to the advantage of the child, the family, the community in general, and the ratepayers in particular. Here again I want to emphasise, as I have done to councillors in every area I visited, that every penny spent, within reason, on the care of children's health pays rich dividends. I hope that next year when the Health Estimate comes before the House I shall be able to announce that this important health service is functioning in a satisfactory manner.

I have never made any secret of the fact that I do not regard the Health Act, 1953, as the last word in regard to the health services of this country but I have already announced publicly that, so as to remove, once and for all, the question of health from Party political controversy, I intended to implement that Act. That is still my policy. Accordingly, I made a special review of facilities existing and prospective, in the latter part of last year and I came to the conclusion that by the latter part of the present calendar year the necessary facilities would be available and the necessary arrangements could be made to extend the benefits of Sections 15, 16 and 17 of the Act to all, or virtually all, those covered by these sections which relate to hospital and specialist services, to maternity care and to the care of neonatal infants. I informed local authorities accordingly so that they could make appropriate provision in their estimates and I have made the necessary provision on that basis in sub-head H of the Estimate before the House. I must confess to a certain amount of misgiving in regard to the matter. I know that in some areas there will be a certain amount of difficulty but I hope that with goodwill all round it will be possible to reduce such difficulty to a minimum and to ensure that there will be no lowering of the quality of the services available to the present eligible classes who must have first claim on our sympathies and on our resources.

I have already mentioned the maintenance allowances introduced under Section 50 for disabled persons. That section also provides for a service for the training of disabled persons for suitable employment and for making arrangements with employers for placing them in employment. I am anxious that this service should be brought into operation as soon as possible but the problem is complex and our experience in relation to it has been limited up to the present. A number of voluntary bodies are at present doing admirable work in some of the specific problems which have to be faced in the rehabilitation of disabled persons but I think that before any large-scale scheme is organised under this section of the Act a complete review of what facilities we have at present and of what are required should be made by a new, broadly-based body.

I have accordingly decided recently to set up a semi-State organisation whose first task will be to find out how many disabled persons there are in the various categories, what facilities there are for their rehabilitation at present and what should be done to extend and improve these facilities. I have in mind that this body will be a limited liability company and that, when this first task has been accomplished, the body itself can be used as a continuing advisory organ for local authorities in operating their rehabilitation service. The association may also be able to supplement these services by operating some of their own but, naturally, the details of this side of their work cannot be decided upon until they have first reported on the questions to which I have referred.

I intend that the membership of this body should include representatives of employers, trades unions, the local staff who will be responsible for the health authorities' rehabilitation services, suitably experienced doctors, persons with experience in vocational education, representatives of my Department and others. The association will be given a grant from the Hospitals' Trust Fund which will be sufficient to get them going and I hope to arrange that their expenses thereafter will be met by contributions from health authorities in the same way as are the expenses of the mass radiography association.

The problems which will face those organising a rehabilitation service are many. There will be the medical problems connected with the training of crippled persons to regain the use of their limbs and to maintain a reasonable condition of general health and a proper mental attitude to their physical limitations. Some employers will be reluctant to take on these rehabilitated persons, and trades unions may see objections in some cases to agreeing to their employment. Finally, there will be the economic problem of trying to ensure that the work which disabled persons are trained to do will not merely be a way to keep them occupied but will help, to some extent at least, to support them. These problems must, however, be faced up to as the rehabilitation of disabled persons is likely to become more important as time goes by. New medical techniques are saving the lives of many people who would have died from such crippling diseases as poliomyelitis in years gone by. I look forward with confidence to the co-operation of all concerned in assisting the activities of this new rehabilitation association.

The matter of dental services has been engaging my attention since shortly after I took up office, and I have come to the conclusion that I should do nothing in regard to Section 21 of the Health Act until reasonable dental services are provided, in fact as well as in theory, for the classes at present eligible, viz., children and persons in the lower income group. These services are at present grossly inadequate, a fact which was admitted freely by every health authority I visited. In some areas, the staff employed is insufficient to do little more than attend to emergency extractions. In no area is it sufficient to give anything like an adequate conservative service. Purely radical treatment, of course, has its uses and might even be justified in certain circumstances in the case of elderly people, but nobody could contend that it is sufficient for children.

A dental consultative council established some years ago pronounced on the question of how many children, in our circumstances, could be dealt with by a whole-time dentist and at the beginning of January, I caused a letter to be addressed to each health authority setting out the numbers who are already the responsibility of the authority for dental care and the standard which had been recommended by the dental consultative council and asking them to make provision, if not immediately for the number of dentists required according to those standards, at least for a considerably improved service. That has been followed by a further comprehensive memorandum setting out in some detail how best a service could be provided. Our services are at present so poor that I cannot visualise a fully adequate service in most areas within a reasonable period and consequently I cannot at this stage even hazard a guess as to when we will be able to take on commitments in respect of classes additional to those already eligible for treatment. Meanwhile the existing dental services for insured persons will be continued by the Department of Social Welfare.

So far I have referred to services which are or will be organised by local health authorities for the classes defined in the Health Act of 1953. While the greater part of the population will be eligible for some or other of the services under this Act there will be a substantial group who are outside its scope but who may still be worried at the prospect of serious illness or accidents and the expensive treatment and care which follow in their train. Furthermore, I am sure there are many people, technically within the classes covered by the Health Act, who would prefer to make their own arrangements for medical or surgical treatment.

To meet the needs of these groups in particular, the idea of a national scheme of voluntary health insurance has been mooted many times in recent years. A detailed examination of the problems involved in establishing such a scheme was never undertaken, however, until recently, when I set up a body to advise me on the question. The main task of this body will be to advise me on the feasibility of a scheme of voluntary insurance which would enable citizens to insure themselves and their dependents against the cost of hospital, surgical, specialist and maternity services, medicines and dental services and the provision of medical and surgical appliances. If the committee consider such a scheme feasible, they will advise me on the type of organisation best suited for it, the contributions which would be needed, the manner of their collection, and the effect which it would have on the finances of voluntary hospitals. The advisory body have already held a number of meetings. They have not yet reported to me but if, following their findings, it appears possible to establish a national scheme of voluntary health insurance, I will do all I can to have it established. I make this promise because I think that a scheme of voluntary health insurance is the best way of easing the cares of those who, after all, contribute in great part to the cost of the services of health authorities to which they themselves are not entitled.

The recent introduction of an income-tax concession in respect of premiums paid for health insurance indicated that the Government is serious in its desire to encourage this form of insurance. I join with my colleague, the Minister for Finance, who in his Budget statement expressed the wish that the numbers claiming this tax concession would increase from year to year.

If it is found possible to introduce an adequate voluntary insurance scheme and if the services under the Health Act are developed on the lines which I have mentioned above, I think that the health services in this country will be of a scope and standard comparable to that of most others. May I express the wish that, with the development of the services on these lines, the misunderstandings, disagreements and rancour which have characterised the discussion of health problems in this country will be forgotten and that in future the organisation of health services will be regarded purely as a technical problem and not in any way as a political one?

I am assuming that Vote 64, Dundrum Asylum, will be taken in conjunction with this discussion?

Oh, yes.

The two Votes will then be discussed together.

Agreed that Votes 63 and 64 be discussed together.

I move:—

That Vote 63 be referred back for reconsideration.

We have listened to the Minister's speech on health, a very comprehensive and interesting speech, for well over an hour and I am in the position that I have not an awful lot to say because I think if I were in the Minister's place I would probably have written about 99 per cent. of that same speech. The fact that the Minister has taken over the services as they were going on for many years and is prepared to develop these services makes it very much easier to agree on many of the health problems. I should say also that in his winding-up sentences his desire to remove health problems from the realm of politics has my entire approval, and with his agreement now on the implementation of the Health Act, 1953, I do not see that there could be any further political disagreement on health matters.

There are just two points of which I took notice as the Minister's speech proceeded. The Minister very kindly supplied me with a copy of his speech which facilitated me very much and if I may refer back, the first matter which I wish to mention is in regard to medical cards. I am very glad the Minister made it clear in his statement that medical cards should be supplied to those who were in fact entitled to free medical treatment before these medical cards were introduced. These medical charges did not arise directly out of the Health Act, 1953, but I suppose they were an inevitable development if you like of the Health Act, 1953. Complaint has been made to me from several quarters that many people who were actually enjoying free treatment up to now have been refused health cards.

That appears to me to be wrong, because the words used in the 1953 Health Act are exactly the same as the words used in the 1939 Public Assistance Act, and if people were entitled to free medical services, free dispensary services and so on up to now under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, which was the Act governing matters until the 1953 Act was passed, the same people should be entitled to free treatment now, and I am very glad the Minister expressed the same opinion. I hope he may find it possible to make his opinion well known to the local authorities so that there can be no further misunderstanding on that matter.

Another matter mentioned by the Minister was that there are certain people who were insured up to now and who were getting free medical treatment which was paid for by the Social Welfare Department and the Minister said that as a result of the Health Act they are now being paid for by the local authorities who are recouped to the extent of 50 per cent. by the Department of Health. That, of course, is true, under the 1953 Act, but we must remember it was made true by a voluntary act of the Minister by bringing that part of the Health Act into operation and not bringing any other part of the Health Act into operation at that particular time. In bringing in the Health Act, 1953, when we visualised that the wife and family of a fairly well off man, say an artisan earning a fairly big wage—£10 or £12 a week—would be entitled to free hospital treatment and that that would be advanced by the local authority who would be recouped 50 per cent. by the Department of Health, it looked rather incongruous that the man himself should not be brought under the same scheme and the Health Act was based on that conception, that the whole family would come in under the Health Act.

That was visualised also when the Social Welfare Act was brought in in 1952 and I, as Minister for Social Welfare, mentioned in this House that for the moment these medical services would be carried on for insured people and that the Minister for Finance had agreed to give a sum of £500,000 a year for that purpose until the new Health Act was brought in and, when that Act was operative, they would be included in the scheme.

That was done. They were brought under the scheme of the Health Act and it was visualised, of course, in bringing in that Health Act, that the middle income group, which included insured people with their families, farmers under £50 valuation, with their families, and those under £600 per year with their families, would all come in at the same time and get free hospital treatment, subject to a maximum charge of £2 a week. That would have been a sort of scheme that would look all right, anyway. But the Minister picked out the one individual class, the insured people. He did not even take the families with them. He took the insured people alone, brought them in under the 1953 Act, relieved the Department of Social Welfare of paying for those people, that is, relieved the Government of paying for them, and the effect was to make the local authorities pay half the charge.

There was no money there.

There was £500,000 a year voted for that purpose and it could have been voted again.

There was no money provided.

There was £500,000 a year promised by the Minister for Finance.

It was not voted.

There is no use in saying there was no money there. If the Minister will look up my speech on the Social Welfare Bill, 1952, he will see that the Minister for Finance had agreed with me that he would provide £500,000 per year until the Health Act was brought in.

Then he broke his agreement.

The Minister picked out a certain little point and said to the health authorities: "You will pay half that and do not blame me; blame Fianna Fáil." It is the most dastardly thing ever done by a Fine Gael Minister, and that is saying a great deal.

The Deputy has the hide of a rhinocerous.

It is one of the worst things ever done by a Fine Gael Minister and that is a fact. He comes along and even says it in this House. I would not mind the Minister going down to local authorities in the country and saying it in the secrecy of the council chamber where, probably, there would be nobody to contradict him but, when he says it here, it gives me great respect for the Minister's cheek.

The Deputy has the neck of a giraffe. I compliment the Deputy on his courage.

I compliment the Minister on his cheek in saying that here. At least, if he has done it, let him give the Act the charity of silence and not say any more about it.

I have not very much more to say because the speech made by the Minister would be, as to 99 per cent., the speech that I might make, outlining what has been done, the progress that has been made with the building programme, the progress that has been made with regard to improvement in the services, the progress that has been made with regard to the improvement in the death rates, and so on. In every way, it is the usual speech that any Minister for Health might make.

The only thing I do want to refer to is the implementation of the Health Act, 1953. There are Deputies opposite who may have been here when the Minister was making his speech on the Amendment Act in 1954 and it would be worth reading again. Any Deputy who had not the opportunity of listening to the Minister on that occasion should read the report of that speech because he did make a very impassioned speech on that occasion about the want of preparation on the part of his predecessor in bringing the Act into operation. That was I. He said it could not possibly be done. Indeed, he made such a case that our Labour colleagues, now absent, were constrained to vote for the Bill he brought in in 1954. Now he tells us that he is going to bring the Act in. I do not know what preparations have been made in the meantime. He did outline that many hospitals were opened. They were on the way to being opened in 1954. I do not think the Minister will claim even that he put a single extra brick on those hospitals that would not have been put on them if he had not been there.

Or the Deputy.

These hospitals went ahead and would have been completed in any case even if the Minister never came in. Beds were provided in these hospitals. They were going to be provided in any case. It would be very interesting for any Deputy on the opposite side now to read that very impassioned speech of the Minister in 1954 telling how the 1953 Act could not be brought into operation because of the want of preparation and to hear now that the Act will be brought in towards the end of this financial year. I do not know why it is done.

As a matter of fact, I made a plea at that time that I thought we had enough maternity beds to implement the Act. I was told at that time that we had not. I am told now by the Minister that there are maternity beds that have not been used during the year. We had too many maternity beds. I knew at the time the Minister was bringing in the Bill to postpone the Act of 1953 that all these beds were being provided in maternity hospitals.

40 per cent. of what we require.

I pointed out that 18 beds were being provided in St. Kevin's, that maternity beds were being provided elsewhere, like Baltin-glass, as he mentioned to-day, and I think I referred to the beds that were provided in St. Colmcille's, which are not being used because we have too many beds now.

That is not really the reason.

The Minister made such a telling speech on the want of preparation that he got the majority of this House to say that the Act could not be brought into operation. What is the change now that it can be brought into operation?

The hospitals are being built.

They were being built.

They were not built.

Although I give the Minister credit for being a brave man in asserting certain things, I would say that he will not claim that any of these hospitals were hurried by even one month over the rate of progress they were making at the time that he came into office. In fact, I could say that I was assured when I was leaving that Department that they would have been there sooner if he had not been there. I am not saying that the Minister kept them back, because we are often assured of these things and they do not materialise. I can say truthfully and definitely that no hospital has been finished sooner than I had expected, not one of them. Some of them have been a bit more delayed than I thought but, certainly, no hospital has been hurried up. The programme that was there has gone on. The programme that was there when the 1953 Act was passed, the programme that was in view when the 1953 Act was being framed, was there and has been completed to a great extent, is being completed every day, but the Minister persuaded this House in 1954 that the Act could not be implemented. He now comes along and says it can be implemented although there is no great change in the situation.

I am glad, of course, that it can be implemented now and I am not in any way wanting to prevent the Minister from carrying out his intention of bringing that Act into operation. I only hope that it will be brought into operation before the end of the year. I want to say why: In the last few months—I need not go back further— I have met people of limited means, not in the lower income group—they would not claim free dispensary treatment or treatment of that kind—but they are people who required hospital treatment, including operations, and they have been very seriously embarrassed by the amount charged for this hospital treatment and the fees charged by the operating surgeons. I have one letter in my pocket, which is a most distressing letter, from an honest, small farmer who feels that he must pay the bill sent to him and he does not know how he will do it. For that reason I am very glad, indeed, that the Bill will be brought into operation. I hope it will be made operative as quickly as possible.

The Minister also mentioned the matter of mental deficiency. When Minister for Health, I think I expressed the opinion in this House that we had laid the foundations for the number of sanatoria necessary for T.B. We had also, I felt, laid the foundations for roughly the number of hospitals necessary for general, medical and surgical cases, including some of the hospitals that have not been commenced—the new St. Laurence Hospital, the new St. Vincent's Hospital and the Cork Regional Hospital. There was one place where we were certainly much behind requirements and that was in regard to mental deficiency.

The Minister gave some figures to-day. As far as I can recall, he said that when the present institutions were completed there would be 1,400 new beds supplied—double what was there before. That would look to be a total of almost 3,000. In my opinion we would have to double that again before we would have sufficient. We would have to have 6,000 beds for mentally deficient cases in this country. I hope the Minister will make every effort to make provision for these mental defectives. I can assure him that he will have every help he may need from all Parties in this House in doing that job.

I should also like to refer to the suggestion made by the Minister with regard to the rehabilitation of disabled people. The Minister announced his intention of starting a limited liability company to, first of all, inquire as to the extent of the problem, and, secondly, to make the necessary preparations to carry out what is necessary for the rehabilitation of the disabled people in this country. I do not know, of course, what the arguments are for and against this limited liability company, but I assume that the Minister has gone fully into the matter. I wish him well. I hope he will get on as quickly as possible with the establishment of this company and get it under way. It is a very big problem and we have very little knowledge as to the extent of it. To make any move at all towards a solution of the problem is good. I hope the Minister will be successful in establishing this limited liability company and that he will deal with the problem as quickly as he possibly can.

I do not think I have very much more to say in regard to this problem for the coming year. I hope that the Minister's undertaking to bring the Health Act of 1953 into operation will materialise and that we may see the people in the middle income group whom I have mentioned provided for in regard to hospital and specialist services which they so badly need at the moment.

There are a few points I should like to mention in connection with this Estimate. We all realise that the problem is mainly one of providing adequate hospitals in this country. That is undoubtedly a problem. Nevertheless, it is one that must be tackled. It is also a problem that is causing grave concern. I do not know what the position is in Dublin, but certainly this is a problem that is causing grave concern in the City of Cork. I had in mind, of course, the problem of providing in Cork a regional hospital. It is many years now since the plans were originally prepared for the hospital. It is very many years since the site was procured. I know quite well that the Minister has been interested in this during the past 12 months. I am also convinced that the Minister before him was anxious to see an end to the problem in relation to the building of this regional hospital.

Time passes very quickly—too quickly. For the people in the South of Ireland, and particularly those in Cork City and County, this is a matter of primary importance. Speaking of hospitals, generally, I believe that if we relate our remarks not merely to hospitals but to the question of dispensaries in the rural areas we may be able to arrive at the solution of the problem of trying to get sufficient accommodation in hospitals.

In many of the rural areas—I am not aware of the conditions either in Dublin City or to a great extent in Cork City—a grave difficulty exists in regard to the provision of adequate dispensaries. I consider—and this is also the view of many doctors—that many patients at the present time would not be in some of the hospitals if we had a proper dispensary service. We know from experience that many people decide it is useless for them to make any attempt to go to the local dispensaries even where the doctor is a person who is quite prepared to give the best possible service because the surroundings of these dispensary buildings are gloomy. In many instances, the buildings themselves are antiquated and barely stand up. It is hopeless to expect a doctor to give patients proper examination and treatment.

Complementary to the provision of hospitals is the provision of dispensaries. If we can do that in the rural areas we may help to a large extent in solving the problem which confronts us. I also know that many of our people in the rural areas experience the greatest difficulty in making visits to the hospitals if relatives of theirs happen to be in them. If people go to hospital it is only because they allow their illness to go so far because they dread going to the dispensary buildings. I appeal to the Minister to have foremost in his mind the problem of dealing with dispensaries. It is only fair to say that not every dispensary in the country is falling down, thank God.

There is another problem in connection with the dispensaries with which the members of local authorities are very much concerned and that is the matter of inspection of the dispensaries. The inspections should be frequent but, unfortunately, they are not. They take place once every year or once every year and a half. I think that is outrageous. I am sorry to admit that we have instances of local dispensary doctors who are not too interested. When the people who are not very interested know that there will be an inspection only once a year or once every year and a half there is no incentive for them to be up and doing something in regard to the conditions in the dispensaries.

It is equally hard on the good dispensary doctor—the man who is anxious to have within the four walls of his dispensary a proper and adequate supply of medicines and drugs. He knows that, because of the difficulties in the dispensary and because, at times, of the indifferent approach of many and perhaps the majority, of the members of the local authorities, everything is against him and that these problems are closely connected with the lack of inspection. If we could get closer co-operation from the Department, frequent inspections and frequent reports to the manager and, through the manager, to the members of the local authorities, we would then have a better understanding of the conditions in the dispensary and also, what is equally important, of the services given there.

There is another matter in which I know the Minister is seriously interested and for which I give him credit and that is the grave problem in relation to mentally deficient children. I give the credit that is due to the present Minister when he states that he is giving this matter his closest consideration and is prepared to do what he can in the most speedy manner in order to bring relief. It is deplorable to see the conditions under which these young children must live and to see that we are still in a hopeless rut as regards trying to get sufficient accommodation for them.

We have in this country religious communities who are giving excellent service and an excellent example in the work they are doing for these unfortunate children. It is most important that we should throw our full weight behind any endeavour made by the Minister and his Department in trying to provide facilities, including the buildings necessary in order to get the co-operation of these religious communities which they in turn are offering to the State. We cannot expect or hope for the same service to be given by lay staffs as is given by these religious communities. Therefore, if we improve conditions it will undoubtedly mean not just relief at the present time but it will mean so much in the years to come to the mentally deficient children of the present time who, after all, in a short number of years will come to the age of manhood or womanhood.

Another problem to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention is also one which affects the rural areas and which often imposes a severe financial burden on certain people. It is a regulation in regard to funeral expenses. It is not uncommon to hear of a sudden death and we all know that the ordinary worker, the road worker or the farm worker is not any more immune from such a tragic end than the members of the more wealthy sections of the community. Where the widow of such a person is concerned, unless she reports to the local home assistance officer before making any funeral arrangements—and I am sure in such a state of emergency the widow is not so cold-hearted as to be able to arrange all these matters—she finds that, even though the local county manager and officials concerned are most anxious to be helpful and cooperative, because of the regulation nothing can be done. I believe the local county manager and the members of his staff, where they are satisfied that justice demands it, should have authority by regulation made by the Minister, if necessary, to give financial help even though it be after such an event.

The Minister is also entitled to credit in regard to a very big problem we had in relation to certain treatment of school children. We have now come to a satisfactory conclusion of that disgraceful deadlock where children were handicapped because of a refusal of treatment under certain circumstances. Thanks be to God we are now solving that problem. I know I am speaking for all the members of the local authority when I say that during the whole of the negotiation there was no question of politics. We had the co-operation of all the members and also that of the Minister. Even a meeting this week has resulted in this problem being solved in a satisfactory manner. This should be an example of how to succeed in important matters of this kind. It is very necessary that we should realise when discussing such an important Estimate as the Estimate on health that we should be as far removed as possible from politics because the health of the people will not be improved by any long political debate as to who is right or wrong in this House. That is the only way we can overcome the difficulties that confront us at the present time.

My final remark to the Minister is in connection with another hospital. I refer to the conditions in the Cork Mental Hospital. It is good, perhaps, that many people do not realise the appalling overcrowded conditions that exist in many of these hospitals. If such conditions prevailed in ordinary local authority or voluntary hospitals where there would be many more visitors from day to day, there would be letters in Sunday, morning and evening papers all the year round. But we all know how few visitors there are to mental hospitals, even where relatives may be concerned. I know that the figures submitted to the Department of Health in recent years on mental hospitals show quite clearly the overcrowded conditions that exist, particularly in the Cork institution. The conditions are of an appalling nature both from the point of view of patients and staff alike, and it seems essential that this state of planning should be ended and that additional building be started.

These appalling conditions, as I have said, relate directly not alone to patients but to staff as well because the living conditions of some of the staff in mental institutions are of such a nature that it is amazing how they produce the results that they do and how they continue to give the excellent service they manage to give year in year out.

My final remarks will be in the form of an appeal to the Minister. I know very well he is concentrating on these problems and we are solidly behind him, but I know also that we are determined not only to support him but to see that extra accommodation will be built so that patients and staff will get some relief from the overcrowding of which I have spoken.

I think the statement of the Minister on introducing this Estimate is most striking and most welcome and is, if nothing else, proof of the redemption by him of the pledge he gave this House some time last June that he would bend his efforts to the removal of the subject of health from the unnecessary controversy of Party politics. I think the manner in which that statement has been received in the House is proof of the fact that he has succeeded in that attitude to health and I think, therefore, that to every Deputy in the House it must be a most welcome sign with regard to the subject.

On the contents of the statement itself I would first like to say that I welcome it. I should like to point out that the attitude of the health authorities to doctors should be one of much more consideration and of much more conciliation than is sometimes displayed. It does seem to me that where the health authorities are taking on increasing numbers of health services and are coming if not as an intervention certainly as a participant between the ordinary patient and the doctor that it is absolutely essential that no attitude or act of the health authority should in any way spoil or destroy the confidence which I think does at present exist between the patients and doctors of every grade and type in this country.

Both in Dublin and in the country outside it, taking it by and large, taking the average and the majority cases, the confidence which the ordinary person has in his own doctor or in the doctor who attends on him is very great indeed and the integrity of the doctor attending on the ordinary person is also very great. It would be a very definite tragedy indeed if we were to increase the number of our services and the material attributes of the health services in this country—a somewhat intangible asset—at the expense of the confidence which exists between the patient and his doctor.

I welcome also, I must say, the Minister's statement that he was urging upon health authorities the provision of anaesthetic specialists. Certainly within the last few years it has seemed to me that no desire to increase buildings, hospitals, clinics, sanatoria and so on should permit us to fall into the error of letting the facilities for the administration of health services either in or outside the cities outrun the specialist services themselves. I think there has been a slight feeling, which I do not think is realised yet, in approaching the provision of health services, that we should build big extensive hospitals with expensive equipment and with expensive provision of beds, construction and so on and that we should fail to put a proportionate amount of money into the provision of specialist and extra highly efficient medical attention in those hospitals.

As far as experience would show, it would seem that in some other countries the tendency is the other way; that in other countries are to be found brilliant teams of medical experts operating away from the cities, possibly in small urban areas under conditions which are scarcely adequate for the skill of even much less brilliant men. It would be an awful pity if we had something less than real experts here working under excellent circumstances. Accordingly, I welcome the Minister's assurance that he is urging on health authorities the necessity of providing anaesthetic specialists in all our institutions.

On the question of hospitals, there is one matter which may sound trivial but which I think is of importance when the Minister is in the process of greatly enlarging the number of hospitals and the size of hospitals in the country. I should like to make a plea through him to the health authorities in the country in regard to local authority hospitals and, to some extent, to voluntary hospitals, that much greater visiting and information facilities for patients and relatives would be available both in the cities and in the country.

There are obviously some cases where too much visiting may be a trouble. There are cases where too much contact with anxious relatives may deter or obstruct a patient's advance towards recovery but in the great generality of cases the sort of feeling of loneliness the average person has when he finds himself in hospital away from relatives worrying whether the relatives—wife or father or children—are getting sufficient information about them, acts as a marked deterrent towards recovery, and certainly is an unnecessary hardship and anxiety on both relatives and patients alike.

I know that visiting at indiscriminate hours by great numbers of people and constant telephoning may be a great obstruction to the smooth running of institutions but I think that the present facilities for visiting and for the obtaining and the issuing of information about patients are much too restricted and confined. The provision of a great many more hospitals, modern and larger institutions, should, it seems to me, go hand in hand with a freeing of the old system of visiting and of obtaining and giving information with regard to the conditions of patients.

The next matter the Minister mentioned and on which I should like to say a few words is the question of the health of the children of this country and on this I shall confine my remarks to the City of Dublin where I have more practical experience than of outside centres. It seems to me that the Minister's attitude is entirely correct —that all the emphasis or a great proportion of it should be devoted to preventive medicine with regard to the health of children.

It will be no harm in passing to record that certainly in my own experience of the constituency I represent the child welfare section of the Dublin Corporation has made a very great contribution towards both preventive and other medicine for children. Its functions may not be wide enough and the personnel and materials at its disposal may not be large enough to be entirely satisfactory but I think it is no harm, remembering that criticism of various other sections of either Government or local authorities often comes forth from Deputies here, to mention that it seems to me that the personnel of that particular section certainly has made a very large contribution in that direction.

I think the Minister would do well, when he is considering preventive medicine for children, to consider at the same time in how far his responsibility should enter into the question of recreational facilities for children as a Minister for Health concerned with the health of children and with the prevention of disease. I appreciate that to a certain extent the provision of recreational grounds and so forth is entirely a matter for local government and does not come within the scope of this Estimate.

The Minister, however, is concerned with the organisation of preventive medicine and with the giving of a lead and a guide in that particular aspect of health in relation to children in the City of Dublin; he should at the same time consider very carefully the powers at his disposal and the possibility of looking for possibly new powers which would, permit him, solely concerned with the health of children, to have an active interference in the matter of providing recreational facilities for children living in close contact with each other in blocks of flats, for instance, such as the very large blocks of flats called Fatima Mansions, near Dolphin's Barn. There, there is no playground of any description for what I reckon to be something in the nature of possibly 1,200 to 1,600 children.

I believe that if the Minister is concerned with preventing illness and the spread of illness and disease amongst those children he must take on himself the responsibility of interfering to some extent and in some fashion with building plans which do not permit of or have not yet provided for open-air playgrounds for such a large number of children who, through the offices of the local authority, are compelled to live in that particular area.

Another matter to which I would like to see more prominence given in connection with preventive medicine in relation to children is the giving of advice—and I mean advice now and not direction—on the feeding of children. It is most unlikely that in any income group, irrespective of whether the income is high or low, the majority of the children in the City of Dublin are getting the best and most healthy diet. I know there are services provided, very good and very active services, to give advice to mothers on the correct feeding of children but I think a stirring up of propaganda on that and a stirring up of the organisation of such services would give very beneficial results at the present time.

Deputy Desmond referred to the rehabilitation of disabled persons. I certainly welcome the plan or proposal on the part of the Minister to set up a separate association to deal with that particular problem. One must appreciate and welcome the setting up of such a body to deal with this one of many health problems as representing a further taking of one more health problem out of the controversial sphere of Party politics. I am sure the Minister does not want to interfere with the deliberations of that body but I hope that great emphasis will be put not only on the rehabilitation of disabled persons but also on the securing of a more favourable general attitude towards the employment of such people in the ordinary way. Fundamentally, I think we are very bad when it comes to a question of employing disabled persons. Our prejudices far outrun our charity.

I think this is a case where charity can go hand-in-hand with good sense because I think everybody who has had any experience of individual cases knows that disabled persons, given the opportunity of rehabilitation, are often more genuinely interested in their work and more content in the doing of it because of having been given an opportunity of becoming once more useful members of society, and they make very good employees indeed. There are disabled persons who, despite their disability, have been made fit for various occupations. I know that these are really the care and responsibility of the Minister for Social Welfare but, in so far as the Minister for Health has provided this organisation, I would like him to try through his own offices and through the offices of this new body to persuade people that ordinary Christian charity demands a much more generous attitude towards disabled persons in so far as employees are concerned.

As Deputies are aware, blind persons have been trained as efficient typists and telephone operators; it is nevertheless exceedingly difficult to place a blind typist in employment in ordinary commercial firms in the City of Dublin. What is more distressing is that it is equally difficult to get such typists placed in Government Departments. So far as I am aware there is no special employment available and these typists have to go into open competition with others suffering from no disability. I appreciate a Government Department is not in any better position than any employer to risk inefficiency in its work, but I think a lead should be given. Indeed they are more likely to find efficiency very often in properly trained and properly rehabilitated disabled persons.

A lead should be given by Government Departments in that matter and a plea should be made by the Minister for a much more charitable and generous approach to this question of employing disabled persons. There will be no use in rehabilitating these people if some queer prejudice prevents them from getting a living afterwards. For that reason I think considerable propaganda will be necessary amongst persons in a position to give employment to ensure an improvement in the present attitude.

Apart from the individual and detailed ingredients of the Estimate which meet with my approval, the attitude of the Minister in bringing this matter successfully back to the noncontroversial consideration of Deputies and of people outside the House is a most proper one and represents one of the greatest achievements we have had in recent years in our own political sphere.

The Minister in introducing his Estimate pointed out that the provision this year is down by £1,100,000 on last year's figure. I do not know whether that is an indication of efficiency for which there should be some applause from the general public for the Government on bringing down this cost, but it does not explain that this saving has been made on the Exchequer account by transferring the charge or charges to the various local authorities and thereby increasing the rates on the ratepayers throughout the country. It is very easy to say that we have made the saving when in fact there has been no saving whatever, other than a transference of the burden from one set of payers to another.

How has this been done? Some time ago I wrote a letter to the Press in which I said that the beginning of the saving to the Exchequer of national expenditure was brought about by transferring to local authorities the charge in hospitals for insured workers. The Minister, or his private secretary, answered that letter and denied that this was an act of his but said it was a result of an Order by his predecessor which he found in his office on the files. I said I would answer that at a later date on another occasion and I propose now putting on record the real position.

The 1953 Health Act envisaged the transferring of insured workers and the cost of their hospitalisation under the local authorities' control and, under the Health Act provisions generally, provided that the dependents of the insured worker were also treated in the same way, and that agricultural workers and their dependents would be hospitalised in the same way and that any person under the £600 a year income level and his dependents would be treated in this way.

But what has the Government done? What has the Minister for Health done? He has still continued to accept, by way of payment into the Social Welfare Department, the contributions of the insured worker for hospitalisation for himself, and while the Minister for Social Welfare or the Exchequer is holding on to these contributions the cost of the maintenance of the insured worker paying those contributions has now been transferred to the local authority with, of course, the recoupment of 50 per cent. that we all know about. But nothing has been done for the dependents of the insured worker; nothing has been done for the dependents of the agricultural insured worker, and nothing has been done in the sense of the provision of the 1953 Act for all persons under the £600 a year level.

That is one saving. We estimate in Dublin Corporation—I cannot speak for the rest of the country—that in the City of Dublin the cost in transferring the maintenance in hospitals of insured workers is 7d. in the £ on the rates. That is the net figure. Yet, we have people shouting about mismanagement by the Dublin Corporators allowing the rates to go up, but there is no clear and specific explanation from the Minister for Health or from the Government Information Bureau that more than the increase in rates has been brought about by the transference and increase in health charges ordered by the Government and by the Department of Health to be met by the Dublin Corporation— and I take it the same applies to other local authorities.

Up to quite recently we paid in the City of Dublin for hospitalisation of poor persons so much per week to the hospitals. By order of the Minister, again, as he says, because it was envisaged in the 1953 Act—how and where I do not know—we were ordered to double our payments to voluntary hospitals for hospitalisation of the poor persons in Dublin, and that has imposed a further additional amount to be recouped from the public by way of increased rates contribution. I think the figure was doubled. We are now paying £5 12s. per week per person where previously we paid approximately half of that. How does that bring about a saving to the Department of Health? Very simply. Previously, if there was an annual deficit in hospital income on the basis of the charges made that deficit was made up from the hospital funds through the Department of Health, and it is easy to make a saving in Government expenditure if you wipe away the deficit by having the local authorities meet it. That is how you can bring down the cost of your health services.

The Minister says by way of excuse: "What can I do? The 1953 Health Act was passed by this House and it is a Fianna Fáil Health Act and I am doing my best to save the public from it." But at a later stage in his introductory speech he says: "I am going to work the Health Act"—I take it, in the full—"as best I can and as soon as I can, and the Health Act is now my policy." Well, if it is his policy now to implement the Health Act why use it as a bludgeon to beat his political opponents when costs arising from it emerge and are there for the public to meet? He cannot have it both ways. Either the Minister is going to stall and postpone and ultimately abandon the balance of the sections of the Health Act which he has not implemented or is going to implement them.

If the Health Act is now his policy and the policy of the Coalition Government, then I take it it is being implemented for want of a better Health Act because if he finds fault with it, then there must be some part of it which he can alter, amend or improve, and if he cannot do either of these things but decides now at this late hour that the Health Act is to be "my policy", then I say that is because he has not been able to find a better Health Act. That may be. Or it may be that the Minister has been driven to this position because the Health Act was accepted by the Labour Party, accepted as a contribution only to a proper health scheme, and possibly, therefore, the Minister is making the announcement, as he has done in his speech on this Estimate, that it is now his policy to pacify his partners in Government, the Labour group.

Might I at this stage ask the Minister if he has any report to give the House on the position with regard to the availability of maternity beds? When we last discussed in this House this controversial subject, a great deal of stress was laid, by members on this side of the House at any rate, on the implementation of the 1953 Act sections dealing with free maternity service and the Minister's main argument against implementing those sections was the lack of maternity beds. At that time I asked for the figures. They were given. From the information I was able to get from those who were in a position to advise me and from the information of the maternity hospitals, it appeared to me that, physically, from the point of view of the availability of beds, there was nothing to stop the implementation of that service. I would like the Minister now to tell the House what progress has been made. Now that he has had time to get a proper examination made and precise information from his own technical advisers, can he say when it is hoped that the maternity service will be fully available?

The Minister says in his speech:

"I have no doubt that, given a reasonable attitude on the part of the local authorities, the maternity scheme will in a short time be operating satisfactorily."

Does that mean that the Minister has now indicated to the local authorities that they can go ahead with the maternity sections of the Bill as originally envisaged and stopped by him in his postponement of the Health Act as a whole?

The Minister did indicate to the House that since the building programme was undertaken, about 300 maternity beds have been provided, representing about 40 per cent. of the programme envisaged, but the Minister has been careful to avoid saying to what extent this concerns the whole country as distinct from areas. I say emphatically, and I defy the Minister to contradict it at this stage, that as far as the City of Dublin is concerned there is nothing to stop the full implementation of the maternity scheme as envisaged in the Bill. It may be that there are parts of the country where they are not as far advanced in this as we are, but I do know that there are quite a number of local authorities who have indicated a long time ago their willingness to operate these sections of the Act.

The Minister could tell us what the real problem is. Is it a question of cost? It is not a question of the physical means of doing it. As far as I know the position in Dublin, the maternity hospitals are able to deal with this matter if the local authorities are permitted to implement it.

The Minister has dealt with mental hospitals in a general way. He has dealt with a great many of the improvements that have taken place in the treatment of mental defectives and so forth. For a long time a number of people have been concerned about the lack of proper facilities for the treatment of juvenile defectives. It is not so long since juveniles, who had been treated together with adults in institutions, were, to a limited extent, moved out into special places. I want the Minister to indicate to the House, with special reference to juveniles, that there will be a new approach, a special attack and a special type of treatment and housing of the incurables, as distinct from the manner in which for so many years we have been dealing with this type of patient.

If the Deputy had been in the House to listen to my speech, he would know I had already dealt with it.

There are two ways of dealing with that.

Or if the Deputy read my speech.

I have read the speech but if the Minister can show me where he deals specifically in his speech with juveniles I will be glad to correct what I have said.

Under which heading? Under "Mental Defective Institutions"? The Minister said under that heading:—

"Considerable progress has been made with the programme to provide proper institutional facilities for mental defectives."

I am talking of juveniles.

That is what I am talking about.

The Minister said:—

"During the present year a 280-bed extension at St. Mary's, Drumcar, a 180-bed institution at St. Raphael's, Celbridge, and a 180-bed extension at Our Lady of Good Counsel, Cork, will become available to receive patients. The conversion of Glenmaroon House, Dublin, into an institution for 200 mentally defective girls is almost completed."

That is the beginning.

That particular building deals with only a fraction of the cases concerned and was brought about, if the Minister will permit me to say so, mainly by my operations to get juveniles removed from Portrane and Grangegorman.

Would the Deputy stop blowing his own trumpet and read my speech?

That was drawn from me because I know what I am talking about.

"In addition, I anticipate that a further 80 beds will shortly be available at Stewart's Hospital, Palmerstown,"

—that is an institution that I know something about also. I know the circumstances. I know its history. I know the type of patient. The Stewart mental hospital does not confine admissions to juveniles. Perhaps the Minister will correct me on that.

There is a lot more about it there. If the Deputy wants information, it is all in his hand.

"while portion of a 240-bed extension at St. Joseph's, Clonsilla, should be ready by the autumn. When all those projects have been completed almost 1,400 additional beds will have been made available for mental defectives—which represents an increase of about 100 per cent. on the accommodation available before the programme was undertaken. The provision of two further institutions at Delvin and Sligo is being undertaken and planning is in progress. It is proposed that these institutions will provide about 500 additional beds."

Perhaps the Minister will be patient with me. The word "juvenile" is not mentioned throughout that whole paragraph.

It all refers to children.

The whole lot?

Yes—every single institution.

That means that the Minister tells me that there will be 1,400 additional beds for juveniles only?

Yes—children.

The Minister might have been better advised, in order to relieve the ignorance of some of us with regard to some of these places, to have stated specifically that these concern juveniles.

I did not anticipate I would meet the Deputy.

As far as one of the places mentioned which the Minister says concerns juveniles only, I say it does not. The Minister can get from his own advisers the information as to whether I am correct or not. By no stretch of the imagination could I have concluded that this particular paragraph of the Minister's speech referred to juveniles only because I happen to know the institutions that are immediately around us here. I do not know anything about what is envisaged in Sligo or in places away from the centre of the City of Dublin.

I am telling the Deputy what is envisaged.

I would be much obliged if, when the Minister is replying, he would amplify the matter.

I do not see that there is any amplification necessary. All the beds mentioned will be available for mentally defective children and further beds will be made available.

Is it intended to remove the adults from the Stewart institution? There are adults there?

How can it be a juvenile institution then?

The Deputy is making a great show of special knowledge.

I am not. The Minister ought to have a little bit of consideration for those who have given a lifetime in service, particularly in regard to this particular line. I speak from experience. It is not guess work on my part. The Minister must admit that for a great number of years that was one particular matter that had never been dealt with. I am not saying that the Minister was responsible or that his predecessors were responsible. The fact is that the conditions ruling in the country were such that this particular problem was never tackled. It became a problem when we had in certain institutions juveniles and adults treated together.

Is the Deputy satisfied that I dealt with it in my introductory remarks?

The Minister explains that this is entirely for juveniles. I say it is not as I happen to know in the case of some of the institutions referred to where adults are housed.

Under the same roof but segregated from the children.

I am not asking for segregation. We are faced with a big enough problem in the treatment alone of the adult inmates of these institutions. You have two types. You have the mental defective from birth and for whom, unfortunately, there is no hope of a possible cure. The only thing you can do is to have that unfortunate person housed properly, cared for properly and treated properly and under the circumstances and conditions that a juvenile mental defective should be handled.

In other institutions you have adult mental defectives for whom, unfortunately, again, there is no hope of cure, but there are large numbers for whom treatment can be made available and cures can be brought about. On this matter there is constant development and constant progress. I am asking the Minister—I do not say this in an attitude of hostility—to tell us whether with special reference to the juvenile mental defective cases there is going to be a continuance of the development which took place when Glenmaroon House was first made available for segregation of juveniles from Grangegorman and Portrane. That is all I am asking the Minister. I am asking him to assure us that this is being given consideration by him and his Department and that there will be constant attention paid to it.

There is another matter I should like the Minister to consider favourably. I have recently tried to examine the unemployed register in so far as I could break down the type of persons who sign at these employment exchanges. I found—I do not know what applies elsewhere—that in Dublin we have a certain number of persons signing the unemployed register who are what we call chronic unemployed persons— persons who, on examination, might be found to be in such a state of health that they should be removed from that register and put on some kind of national health register.

That would not be the responsibility of the Minister for Health.

I am talking of persons who are chronic sufferers from arthritis and certain types of injuries and who sign at the exchanges. I am asking the Minister whether he would consider, if not now then some other time, examining those people whom we call chronic unemployed to see if they could not be described as persons worthy of transfer from this particular register to a national health register. I am not saying that the Minister has not thought of that. I have not concluded that the Minister thinks the suggestion a daft one. I believe that if the matter is examined the Minister will find that what I say exists. The person who can be employed has to be a fit person. I say that if the Minister gets the matter examined he will find that quite a number of those so-called chronic unemployed are persons who should, in fact, come under his examination.

I cannot repeat all I said while the Minister was out, but I would like him to remember what I said about the transfer of the charges of insured workers to local authorities and the increase on local authorities of the charges of the hospitals for the maintenance in the hospitals of poor persons. I should like to put this to the Minister. We in Dublin—thanks to the general tendency towards improvement in the health of our people and the gradual decline in the number of cases of certain diseases—find that we have to make certain changes in hospitalisation in Dublin. Dublin Corporation recently decided that it would close down the Pigeon House, formerly known as the Pigeon House T.B. Hospital. We examined the number of cases that were still there and found that quite a percentage were not T.B. cases at all. I do not know whether or not we are going to be permitted to close this institution, but if we do there will be no hardship on the part of sick people. It will bring about a considerable saving.

We also recently decided—in this connection I agree that our own medical officer of health was not in full agreement with us—that we would be able to close down the Clonskeagh Hospital because of the new Abbotstown institution.

Cherry Orchard.

We believe that Cherry Orchard can take care of our full requirements except in the case, say, of a very virulent outbreak of some very contagious disease or fever. I should like to feel that there would be cooperation between the Department of Health and the local authorities in readjusting the use of the institutions or the changing and so forth as from year to year we find the situation changes because of the improvement in the health of our people. I believe that I am right in saying that the Minister does not approve of closing down the Pigeon House. We in Dublin Corporation believe it would be a good thing. The Minister may not know that the order of nuns that had up to the present looked after that institution have given us an intimation that they are leaving the premises very soon.

Is the Deputy aware I received a deputation from his colleagues the week before last?

And what was the Minister's answer?

Is the Deputy not aware of it? I think he should discuss the matter with his colleagues.

Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to tell the House now did he agree?

I suggest the Deputy should discuss the matter with his colleagues.

I am not worried if the Minister received a deputation and a different approach was made from what I am saying. I do not mind if the Minister tells me that, but up to the time that I last heard about this, it was the desire of the corporation to close down the Pigeon House. We had been informed the Minister did not approve of it and a deputation was sent to him. I am asking him now what is his attitude with regard to it? If he does not allow us to close down this institution it means we will have to create new positions for people to run it in place of the nuns, who are withdrawing. All the Minister says is: "I received a deputation".

I discussed the matter with the people sent by the Deputy to meet me and I suggest the Deputy should discuss the matter with them.

That is very secret. Can the Minister now say what his attitude is?

I usually observe confidences.

It is not a question of confidence. This is a matter of public concern. Was this not discussed publicly? Perhaps the Minister will be a little more generous to me if I tell him that as far as I was concerned, my most recent reference to the matter was as chairman of the finance committee of the Dublin Corporation when we were framing our estimates and when we did not include in our estimates the cost of the upkeep of this institution after a certain date. It was subsequent to that that we discovered the Minister did not approve. I am asking the Minister to tell me or does he want me to go and phone up some official of the Dublin Corporation to find out what was the decision of the Minister with regard to the deputation he received?

An agreed statement was issued. I am sure the deputation discussed the matter with him.

The Minister says first of all he is going to continue to honour confidences and then the Minister says that an agreed statement was issued. But did the agreed statement say what the decision was?

No decision was contained in the agreed statement.

Then the Minister is still in the position that he does not approve?

That is what the Deputy has postulated. I do not know whether it is true or not. I suggest the Deputy should talk to the Lord Mayor or his colleagues in the Dublin Corporation. He will find out the full story and his mind will be set at rest.

The Minister now approves if that is the case. My mind will be set at rest if the Minister has approved of the closing down of this antiquated service to a limited number of people supposedly suffering from T.B. I want to take this opportunity of thanking the Minister for his spontaneous and generous reaction to a deputation of which I was a member in connection with a problem which confronted the Baggot Street Hospital.

I want to say on behalf of the board of that hospital and on behalf of myself that if the Minister's attitude on everything and even in discussion here was as prompt and as generous as was his help to that institution, he would be getting more than one tribute. I am paying that tribute to him now publicly because on that matter he deserves a public tribute for the manner in which he met the deputation.

Might I also thank the Deputy and say that if the Deputy always had as good a case, all the difficulties would disappear?

I do not know that we had as good a case.

Do not let me down.

I think the Minister is a little bit modest in that. In the reconstruction of that hospital we met with certain unforeseen difficulties and we are prepared to say that, if you like, we made a mistake, not through our own fault, and we found ourselves in a difficult position. The Minister found a way—I am not going to say how here—to meet our requirements. I want to thank him for that and the Minister need not think I am paying him that tribute undeservedly. However, I do ask if he has that attitude behind the desk in the Custom House, why does he not bring it into this House? Why does he want to bring the atmosphere of the hustings into this House?

I want to say I am glad now that the Minister is a supporter of the Health Bill. I am glad after all the discussion and after all the years of acrimony that the Minister is able to put into his speech to this House that the 1953 Health Bill is now his policy. I congratulate the Minister on that.

The Deputy seems to forget I said that 12 months ago.

I did not know that the Minister said it 12 months ago.

In this House in the absence of the Deputy.

The Minister, when he was in these benches, fought every line and every section of that Bill. I do not suppose the Minister will deny that.

We cannot have a discussion on the Health Act on this Estimate.

The Minister at one time described it as a dirty, rotten Act. Surely if the Minister comes in here and at page 21 of his introduction to the Estimate says:—

"I have never made any secret of the fact that I do not regard the Health Act of 1953 as the last word in regard to the health services of this country, and, as already announced, probably so as to remove the question of error, I intended to implement that Act. And that is still my policy."

I said that 12 months ago in this House.

Under different circumstances. The Minister said it 12 months ago when there was a discussion in this House when he brought in an amending Bill to the 1953 Act. He was forced to implement a very little bit of it and the main portions of the Health Act were postponed indefinitely. It was quite clear to me that the Minister was very reluctantly implementing even the little bits, but from the manner in which he now speaks and from the experience he has had as Minister for Health, he now feels that the Act was a good one.

The Deputy will not be allowed to discuss the Health Act on the Estimate for the Department of Health. It does not arise.

Might I mention this? On page 21 of the Minister's speech introducing this Estimate he introduced the question as to whether this was a good or a bad Act. He said:—

"I have never made any secret of the fact that I do not regard the Health Act of 1953 as the last word"——

The Minister's statement does not reopen the whole discussion on the Health Act.

And I do not pretend that it does reopen discussion on a measure which was discussed for months and months in the careers of two different Governments, but in view of the Minister's statement now, in which he says that this Health Act is his policy, I ask him when he is going to implement the other sections? Can he say now when the sections dealing with maternity matters will be implemented; can he say now when the dependents of insured workers who are receiving in excess of £600 per annum are going to be dealt with; or when the general provisions of the Act will be available to the whole country through the various local authorities?

I think I have now mentioned the items that I had in mind except, perhaps, that I should make reference to one matter dealt with by the Minister in his statement. That is the question of the improvement in the health services for children. I suppose we all received, as I have received, a document from the dental association. Does the Minister intend to give an improved dental service to school children, something on the lines, say, of the present system that applies to the optical side? The document I have received—and I take it other Deputies have received the same document— points out that particularly on the dental side there is quite a lot of development necessary.

In his statement the Minister talks about the occasional visits in the past of medical officers to school children. He said that he hopes now that the three-year periodical visit will be improved to at least an annual visit. Does the Minister think that is sufficient? In the case of children a change in health conditions can show itself in a period of time much less than one year, and in my opinion it would be very desirable if possible that the interlude between the medical officers' visits would be reduced to something less than one year. Perhaps the Minister could indicate to the House what are the hopes for an improved dental service for school children.

I propose to make only a few remarks in this debate. My remarks will be brief and local in character. The first matter to which I should like to refer is the recent decision of the Cork City Manager with regard to the administration of the disabled persons' maintenance allowances regulations. Hitherto these allowances were given to qualified persons even though they were also in receipt of such other benefits as national health, workmen's compensation, etc. The City Manager in Cork, apparently as a result of a conference with other city and county managers from many parts of the country, decided that people in receipt of National Health Insurance benefits, workmen's compensation or other payment from other sources, no matter how small, were debarred from receiving these maintenance allowances. That decision of the Cork City Manager has caused a great deal of hardship throughout the City of Cork.

Apparently the policy in regard to this matter has not been generally stated and it must be noted that when the Minister was confronted with a problem concerning the payment of home assistance benefits as well as disablement benefits arising out of these regulations he intervened and stated what he thought the position should be. I would like the Minister to look into that matter and see if he could not alleviate that hardship which has been caused in Cork and possibly elsewhere. It is a great hardship because for some period these allowances were being paid side by side with sickness and other benefits. The fact that these people are now forced to live on national health or other such small benefits is a great hardship which must be apparent to everybody.

In the case of blind persons who are in receipt of blind pensions there is also a local contribution of blind welfare benefit which is paid out of local funds. That is a clear analogy which should be taken into account so that a uniform system would be adopted for the whole country under which people in receipt of small allowances would not be debarred from the disabled persons' allowances.

One other aspect to which I should like to make reference is the case of a workman who would qualify for compensation on the basis of total incapacity under a scheduled industrial disease. Under the existing law his benefit would be £2 10s. per week; under the law as envisaged by the new Bill he would be entitled to £4 10s. per week. But if he is not able to prove to the satisfaction of the court or to his employer's satisfaction that he is the victim of a scheduled industrial disease he will have to depend on only 24/- a week.

I felt that the purpose of legislation passed here in 1953 was to aid these people who are in receipt of such particularly small sums and I would ask the Minister to examine the position generally to see if he can effect an improvement in so far as the position now stands in Cork and if necessary make a uniform decision for the whole country. I have been asked to request the Minister to speed up as much as possible the establishment of dispensary clinics in Cork. Unfortunately, the dispensary services in Cork are very inadequate at the moment largely as a result of the expansion of the city through corporation housing schemes.

Most members of the House in one debate or another will have heard of the big housing schemes in places like Gurranebraher, Spangle Hill and Ballyphehane. The tenants in these houses are many miles from the centre of the city and they are obliged to go into the centre of the city and bear all the attendant costs of bus fares and so on in order to receive dispensary treatment. The suggestion was made some time ago, and I think it has been adopted, that clinics should be established in the larger areas of population remote from the city centre, such as Spangle Hill Gurranebraher and Ballyphehane. I appeal to the Minister, in so far as it lies within his power, to ensure expedition in the erection and equipment of these clinic dispensaries.

Now many years ago a fever hospital was planned for Cork, but as a result of the preventive measures taken, the necessity for such a fever hospital is not now as great as it was when it was first planned. It has now been decided to change the character of this hospital and to make it an orthopaedic hospital. Possibly there have been some delays as a result of that change. In the beginning there were some building delays of one kind or another. The hospital is now completed, but orthopaedic services are still confined to St. Finbarr's which is the South Cork general hospital. Specialist services of many kinds are available there with the result that there is some congestion and the orthopaedic patients in need of treatment cannot now find sufficient accommodation in St. Finbarr's. The orthopaedic surgeon, an excellent man, will naturally require more facilities than he has at present. I am sure such services will be made available in the new orthopaedic hospital and I think the time has come when this hospital must be opened so that the people can avail of it.

Another matter to which I would like to refer is the problem that has arisen because of the difficulty of securing maids and housekeepers. Many households are now without competent staff to look after aged persons. In many cases these aged people are not sufficiently ill to justify institutional treatment but many old people have succeeded, through influence or otherwise, in getting beds in public hospitals. They are not well enough to be released. The competent authority will not take it on himself to certify their discharge because it could easily happen that they might die within a very short time after discharge and he naturally would not want to have it said that he discharged people from institutional treatment when they were not fit to be released.

Now, these old people are taking the places of patients in dire need of hospital treatment. It is virtually impossible at the moment to get an aged person into these institutions and the time has come when some other type of institution will have to be established for the care of these aged persons, persons either too old or too troublesome to be treated at home by sons or daughters. It has been alleged against the modern generation that they have lost all respect for the aged. Modern factors have to be taken into consideration however; one has to remember the acute shortage of domestic staff or help. It is becoming increasingly difficult for young persons who marry and have their own families to look after old people at the same time. They do not wish to run away from their obligations to those who reared them and looked after them when they themselves were sick but they feel, even if they have to pay for it, that some suitable institutional treatment should be available for these old people. They would then feel satisfied they were doing the best they could for their aged relatives.

There is another type of institution for which the need is growing at the present time. If a person suffers from some mental disorder he has very little choice of institutional treatment. There are some private mental homes but the accommodation is rather limited. The only alternative then for the treatment of a temporary mental disorder is committal to a lunatic asylum. There should be some institutions in which people who do not want to have it said of them that they were in a lunatic asylum could get the treatment they require. The desire not to be committed to a lunatic asylum is quite a natural one. If institutions were established for the treatment of temporary nervous disorders congestion in public mental hospitals would be considerably relieved. The establishment of such institutions would, too, fill a long felt want because in these institutions mentally sick people could get the treatment which would enable them to go back and take their places in the ordinary community life without the fear of having it said of them that they had been committed to a lunatic asylum.

I appeal to the Minister to examine the problems I have posed and bring about whatever improvements he can.

I want to refer to the maintenance allowance for disabled persons, but I shall take a somewhat different line from that taken by Deputy Jack Lynch. The Minister has dealt with the particular matter in a fairly comprehensive manner. It is obvious that it is both the wish and the intention of the Minister, as it is the wish of all Parties, that in deciding upon the amount of maintenance allowance to be awarded home assistance will not be taken into consideration. On the other hand, the Minister has stated that the Minister for Social Welfare has made an Order which makes it clear that the first 10/- of maintenance allowance will be ignored in considering the grant of home assistance.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that his wishes are being ignored in that respect. They are certainly being ignored in the City of Limerick where a saving of over £2,000 was made last year under the heading of "Home Assistance". According to the Minister's statement it should automatically follow that where a maintenance allowance is paid home assistance should also be paid. I have discussed this matter with other Deputies and I am well aware that the county and city managers in many local authorities are not carrying out the wishes of this House. I have written to the Minister on occasions and I am convinced that in the City of Limerick people who have been awarded a maintenance allowance have been knocked off home assistance.

As the Minister for Social Welfare has made an Order that where a maintenance allowance is payable the first 10/- shall not be taken into consideration when home assistance is granted, I maintain that means that anyone who qualifies for a maintenance allowance automatically qualifies for home assistance. That is not carried out in the City of Limerick or by many other local authorities.

When the Minister referred to the disabled persons' (maintenance) allowances, at the outset, he stated:—

"The determination of the eligibility of applicants has been unduly slow. I can appreciate that in certain cases the chief medical officer, who is the certifying officer as to medical disability, would be reluctant to take a decision which might have the effect of awarding a pension for life without adequate medical evidence and the arrangement for obtaining such evidence varied from place to place, depending on local circumstances."

I stress the point in the Minister's statement about the chief medical officer "who is the certifying officer as to medical disability". The Minister might be interested to know that maintenance allowances have been turned down in Limerick City—and I mention Limerick, because if it happens in Limerick, it can happen elsewhere— and the county medical officer of health has never even seen the applicants. I have no hesitation in making that statement. In case it might appear that there was undue laxity by the medical officer of health, it is only fair to point out that the applicants, in the cases to which I refer, enclosed with their application forms certificates from their own dispensary doctors. I thought there was nothing wrong in that and that it would suffice. These dispensary doctors are competent individuals, but the Minister states categorically here that the chief medical officer, "who is the certifying officer as to medical disability, would be reluctant to take a decision.... without adequate medical evidence." I draw the Minister's attention to that.

The Minister went on to say that he suggested to local authorities some time back that if there was likely to be delay in medical assessment the means investigation should be proceeded with in advance. There is very little delay in Limerick either in regard to the medical assessment or in regard to means. These questions are more or less decided in a week or ten days but decided in a very harsh manner. The individuals are not called before the medical officer of health and the circumstances of the individuals are not taken adequately into account. Other public representatives, members of Limerick Corporation possibly, have far more experience in this matter than I have, but I cite the cases of which I know. The application went forward to the local authority, sent in by myself, as the man could not write —he could read, but not write because there was something wrong with his hand. I also enclosed a certificate from his dispensary doctor. He got back a stereotyped form which said: "Dear Sir, your application under section (whatever it was) of the Health Act has been disallowed". That was as far as he got.

It is unfortunate to have to bring up here the administration of the health services and the manner in which members of the public, particularly poorer sections of the community are being dealt with by officials of health authorities in different areas in the country. I suppose the Minister is not responsible directly, and it is very vague as to whether indirectly he would be responsible, but it would be well now when abuses have been brought to the Minister's notice that he would take some action to end them. From time to time he has prefaced his remarks when replying to parliamentary questions in this House by saying: "While it is not my responsibility I have nevertheless intimated to the local authority that such and such is my wish." In this case I would request the Minister to intimate to the city and county managers in the various local authorities that the officers of their health sections should learn a little manners and try to deal with the citizens——

The Deputy should not make charges against public officials who have no redress and cannot defend themselves here. He should bring these matters to the notice of the county managers.

Dealing still with the disabled persons' allowances, I would like to refer to the means test. The Minister dealt with that when he said there was a tendency in certain areas to lay down a rigid means scale in regard to eligibility for service for the lower income group and to say that anybody outside that standard by as much as a shilling a week was ineligible. He goes on to say that he has no objection to a scale for determining that a person is eligible but is not prepared to agree that any applicant should be turned down on the basis of such a scale and he says: "I have informed the responsible officers of local authorities that before any application is refused all the surrounding circumstances of the family must be taken into account. I hope that as a result there will be less grounds for complaint in the future." The Minister's letter to responsible officers of local authorities that he mentioned did not do much good.

There is a rigid scale set down for the City of Limerick and as the Minister is aware from parliamentary questions here it also exists in other areas. It is a coincidence that he mentioned the applicant being outside the standard by "as much as a shilling a week" because I have known cases of several people who were turned down and the answer I got when I queried it was: "That man exceeded the income by one shilling a week".

The same thing applies to the means test for the maternity grants. The feelings of this House and the indications of the Minister to the local authorities on the means test are being ignored. Under this section of the maintenance allowances and the payment for maternity grants, the same instructions went out—that there was to be no rigid adherence to a fixed scale and that each case was to be treated on its merits. That is not being done. They look up the scale and the man's wages and then they say: "You are out", or "You are all right". They never take into consideration the fact that one applicant might be two or three miles outside the city in one of the new housing schemes and might have to pay bus fares for his wife and children and other matters like that. I had hoped that something would be done about it. The only suggestion I can make is that the Minister would go himself or send down a very senior official of his Department to put the skids under whoever is responsible for not carrying out the wishes of this House and of the Minister himself.

The Minister dealt very comprehensively with the dental services. As Deputy Briscoe remarked, everybody got a memorandum from the dentists recently, but I am not very conversant with the matter myself, except on one score, and that is, that the teeth of children visiting dentists in cases where their teeth are not beyond preserving are unfortunately extracted by the dentists without any effort being made to preserve these teeth. If they were paying patients of dentists in private practice we know that every effort would be made to preserve these teeth. I would draw the Minister's attention to that fact, that indiscriminate extraction of teeth of young school children is taking place throughout the country.

In regard to the scarcity of dentists, would the Minister not consider advocating that the local colleges or universities should try to turn out more dentists or suggest that many medical students might switch over to dentistry, if there is such an acute shortage and when there is guaranteed work for a long time? The Minister might also bear in mind that there are quite a number of Irish men and women, qualified dentists, working in Britain, who might be very anxious to come home to their own country. Perhaps the Minister would investigate the feasibility or otherwise of getting them to return.

I wish to refer to the delay in coming to a decision about the cost of the Limerick health services. The Minister assured me, nearly 12 months ago, that a decision would be arrived at in adequate time. The Minister received a deputation from the Limerick Corporation and Deputies and Senators in the constituency a considerable time ago. I cannot understand the reason for the delay. In reply to a recent question the Minister stated that he expected shortly to be in a position to give his decision. I would ask him to try to expedite that decision.

I have nothing but complaints about the administration of the disability allowance, the maternity grant and the T.B. allowance by the Limerick health authority. Unfortunately, it would appear that the same defects exist in many other local authorities throughout the country. There is a scale laid down. My interpretation of the regulations is that it is the income of the individual concerned which is assessed in determining the rate of payment and that the family circumstances are not considered. But the family circumstances are taken into consideration by the Limerick Corporation. I think the regulations specifically mention the individual.

Where the applicant has no personal income, no other means of support, it is desperately unjust to deprive him or her of an allowance on the grounds that the family have a certain income which, in the view of the local authority in Limerick, is sufficient to allow them to contribute to the support of the applicant. There is grave injustice in the administration.

On the question of vouchers for milk and eggs, I understood that any shop would accept them. I find now that they are only accepted in certain shops.

I do not think it is a matter for this Estimate.

The recipients of these vouchers feel that they should be entitled to go into any shop in any city and should not be confined to specific shops.

I think that would be a matter for social welfare.

I am referring to the food voucher issued to recipients of the T.B. allowance.

The Deputy is in order.

Why should there be two or three shops in the City of Limerick where the recipients are compelled to buy? I admit that the premises in question are excellent and that the service is excellent, but people maintain that they can get, possibly, better value elsewhere. I think the Minister will agree with me on this point alone, that there are cases where people have to travel three miles to get these goods although there are shops 150 yards from their own homes. I hope the Minister will refer to that matter.

I was very sorry that the Minister did not use his good offices with the Minister for Finance when there was an increase of 2/6 a week given to noncontributory pensioners, blind pensioners and old age pensioners, to give an increase to the recipients of disability allowances. It has been said by the Minister for Finance and, I think, by the Minister for Social Welfare that they looked to the most needy sections of the community when considering what relief and alleviation could be given. I consider that there was an oversight on the Minister's part. I do not know whether anything can be done for these people at this late stage to have the £1 increased to 22/6. I would be quite satisfied, personally, if the Minister would see to it, once and for all, that every person in receipt of the full disability pension of £1 would automatically be paid the 10/- public assistance by the local authority.

I want to refer to the question raised by Deputy Jack Lynch, the question of old people. I am not talking about the hospitalisation of old people. This matter indirectly concerns the Minister inasmuch as, if he takes the steps I suggest, he might make a saving in his Estimate ultimately.

In my opinion, successive Governments down through the years have failed to provide in the cities accommodation for a certain type of individual. I refer to the old people who have no one to look after them. While I appreciate that what I have to say might be more relevant on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, nevertheless, the Minister for Health would be vitally concerned. There is no provision for old people who live alone. It is a criminal thing to see them being rehoused on the outskirts of cities like Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick when they have been living all their lives near a church in the heart of such cities.

The Minister would do a great service to this very small section of the community if he provided one-storey flats for them, or even flats which contained a lift. A matron to look after them should also be provided, if such could be part and parcel of the health policy of the Minister's Department.

I do not think that the Minister has any power to erect dwelling-houses.

I am not talking about the erection of dwelling-houses. I am talking about the provision of accommodation for people. If the Minister carries out my suggestion he might not have to spend so much money on hospitals or on people when they become ill. The Minister should consult with the Department of Local Government to ensure that when the derelict sites in the various cities are being rebuilt on a special section is set aside on which one-storey flats could be built for these very old people. The Minister should also see to it that a lift and a matron are provided by his Department if possible. In certain cases the old people might make a contribution. If the Minister does not interfere with the policy of the Dublin Corporation and the other local authorities, we will have the fantastic position of requiring very old persons to climb considerable heights which they are not able to do.

Surely this is a housing problem? The Minister is not a housing authority.

I am respectfully suggesting that the Minister should take a greater interest in this neglected class.

The Deputy has said all that he wants to say on that.

I will conclude on that note.

I hope the Ceann Comhairle will not take the head off me——

I am not so hard-hearted as that.

——because what I have to say concerns housing, indirectly. I want to put a certain case to the Minister as I find it in several places throughout my constituency. Talking to other people, I understand that they have similar cases in other counties. Apparently the medical officer of health can come along and condemn a house as being unfit for human habitation. Particularly in the country, where there is a Land Commission annuity in operation in respect of a house, they apparently can go no further than saying that the house is not fit for human habitation.

The object of the Minister for Health is to try, as far as he can, to create the necessary condition to prevent illness or cure it. In the country where people simply have not got the means to erect a proper house for themselves—they have, perhaps, two or three acres of land, an entirely inadequate means of livelihood—and where they are living in squalid conditions they are certainly likely to become ill and suffer from T.B. or other serious illnesses such as typhoid.

I know of three or four harrowing cases in my constituency. The medical officer for health condemned houses in which people are living. T.B. in fact had developed. I even know of a case where four of a family of eight or nine found themselves in St. Patrick's Chest Hospital, Castlerea, together. That was due more than anything else to the fact that they were living in a condition of squalor which was not merely pathetic but almost disgusting. It was not their fault.

I suggest that there should be more liaison between the Department of Health and the Department of Local Government on this particular matter. There is another case which has arisen although this is far less serious than the one I have been talking about. It is a case where a family, having been cured of T.B., go on the T.B. allowance. The income that they would derive in this manner debars them from getting the county council supplementary grant without which they could not hope to build their houses. The provision is a statutory one and there is nothing whatever the Minister can do to relieve the situation. I am very greatful to the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to say that on this Estimate.

I respectfully suggest that I am relevant inasmuch as there is a duty cast on the Minister for Health, as a member of the Cabinet, to take such powers or try to take such powers as will enable his Department to put down its foot and actually do something. His responsibility and job is, where he cannot prevent disease, to create the conditions to cure it. In regard to these houses in the country not only are the possibilities of disease not being precluded but the conditions under which disease is more than possible are there. I would suggest that the Minister should look into this matter particularly as regards the rural areas. It is a sort of special problem. I am not trying to say that this is widespread. There is always the trouble in politics that if there is not sufficient demand for a thing nobody will be able to create sufficient pressure to have the thing done. The Minister will not be ballyragged from any platform just because of a grievance which involves a minute proportion of the people.

Even though the problem is not a great one in a country which has made enormous strides in matters of health during the past 30 years, this small and even minute proportion of the people are not being helped in the slightest way by the existing benefits and existing legislation. I am sure the Minister who represents a constituency in the country will agree with me that there is this minute proportion of the people who are badly and sorely in need of relief. I hope he will adopt my suggestion and try to hammer out some plan with the Minister for Local Government to relieve the plight of these people. I do not like to mention the names of individuals here but if the Minister for Health can help me where the Minister for Local Government and the county councils cannot I will willingly send on to the Minister the harrowing details of the cases I have come across in recent times.

There are two other matters I should like to refer to. I am sure that one of them has been referred to by many other speakers—the payment of the maternity cash benefit. There was a great deal of confusion in the beginning when the Health Act came into operation about the conditions of qualification in regard to this particular cash grant. In my county a questionnaire was sent out to the local assistance officers which included the question: Would this person normally qualify for home assistance? The answer to that in most cases was "No" and on that basis hundreds of people in my county were turned down for this maternity cash grant benefit.

Later on, as a result of consultations with other county councils, the system was changed and now, and for some months past, the regulations permit of the grant being given in accordance with the proper interpretation of the Act. What I want to know from the Minister is if there is any possibility that people who were refused the grant last year when, in my opinion, an erroneous interpretation of the provisions of the Act was being applied, can have their cases reopened and be given this cash grant even at this late stage.

Finally, I want to endorse what Deputy Jack Lynch has said about an intermediate station for the person suffering from nervous disorders. Unfortunately, particularly in rural Ireland, a stigma does attach to people who have been inmates of lunatic asylums, as they are called, and many people who go there for temporary treatment do fall into the category of people who are not suffering form lunacy so much as from serious nervous upsets or disorders of an entirely temporary nature. Deputy Lynch did not mention that private mental hospitals or rest homes are extremely expensive and within the capacity of only a very small percentage of the people to pay and that, therefore, even if they are available they are not available except to the person with a lot of money.

Fortunately, we have reached the stage when hospitals here and there throughout the country are becoming redundant. It is a very happy situation for this country to find itself in and I sincerely hope that it will be finding itself in that position more and more as the years go by. I think it will. We have made enormous strides in the matter of hospitalisation and we are continuing to build hospitals to cure all kinds of diseases. I feel sure that with the continued advance in regard to T.B. we will have accommodation available in some of these hospitals in the years to come.

I suggest to the Minister that some of these hospitals should be made available to people suffering from nervous disorders of a temporary nature. It would be a good thing also to find a new name for these disorders. Old habits die hard and old attitudes of mind die hard and if you gave them a new name you would give the people a new attitude towards them. Twenty years ago it was a matter of opprobrium and something to be hidden if somebody in the family was suffering from T.B. Thank God that is no longer the case. A person merely runs off to the sanatorium, is cured and comes back telling people of the great time he had and nobody thinks any more about it. Twenty years ago it was entirely different.

Please God, there will be a new attitude to mental diseases in this country as well, and, please God, we will help to create the necessary atmosphere to change the attitude of the people by having new types of hospitals with a different appearance from the old institutions. At the present time most of them are forbidding-looking and anyone that looked at the walls and the dark atmosphere of them would feel it must be a terrible thing to be inside, whereas if you went to one of these airy, bright and modern places you would be inclined to say: "Would it not be grand to spend a fortnight or three weeks in there if I did not feel well?"

The Minister's Department has progressed so well in the past few years that it is difficult to find any criticism of its work. I feel that any suggestion I have to make has already been considered in that Department and it is probably taking a more concrete form even now. However, I would like to make a few points on the general question of health. My first interest is in the field of T.B. Our building schemes have been very successful and, combined with vaccination and treatment methods, the drop in the incidence of the disease has been remarkable.

I believe that the drop in the death rate from T.B. was mainly due to the building schemes which gave hospital isolation to open cases and brought these open cases away from their healthy comrades in the country and, therefore, saved people from being exposed to open infection. I think this hospitalisation plan more than any other aspect of the treatment is the cause of the great reduction in the death rate. We had evidence of that. I think it was in Chicago, around 1929 before we had any treatment or vaccination for T.B., when over a period of a few years the hospital bed accommodation was increased rapidly and in a short space of about five years the death rate from T.B. meningitis dropped to about half. This is an indication of the effectiveness of the isolation of cases.

The Department are to be complimented on the rapidity with which they made beds available and at present I find, as a practitioner, a very satisfactory situation existing as regards getting patients into hospital. But I suppose the Minister is aware that in a position such as his no battle is ever completely over and won. Every problem solved brings a new problem and the main problem in the field of T.B. to-day is the problem of the rehabilitation of the T.B. patient. I feel sure the Minister is acquainted with the extent of the problem, which is a personal one. The other problem of treatment was an epidemiological one but that of rehabilitation is a personal one. It is the problem of a person spending a long time in bed with nurses and doctors dancing attendance on him. Such people have the camaraderie of the people in similar trouble living in the same place with them and when their treatment is over and they go home they do not fit in with their families. They find it very difficult to fit into the lonely parish life. They seldom feel inclined to do a heavy day's work, even though they may be quite capable. They do not feel inclined to risk their newly-gained health. I do not blame them.

There should be some place for their rehabilitation. In England for instance there are villages like Papworth where they fit in and grow up in a normal happy life developing their own trades and having a fairly well balanced social and psychological approach to life. It would be an expensive experiment—an experiment liable to fail like it failed in France, but if the Minister could get into the sanatoria and try and study the minds of these people and get the patients interested in such a scheme, I am sure that if they thought he would give the initial finance, the patients would provide the free suggestions to get the scheme started. I do not believe we should establish a village started on State funds and carried on at a loss on State funds. I believe such an institution or village could only be successful if a grant were given to get it started and then left to its own resources.

When speaking on this subject we must get away from the approach we generally make when speaking of State grants. Such grants always bring strings and inspectors and if such things applied to the scheme I have in mind it is bound to be a failure. However, I would ask the Minister seriously to consider the possibility of giving some grant to any of the sanatoria and let them do what they can with it. You may lose the money but on the other hand you might gain a very happy result and rid ourselves of the problem of the rehabilitation of T.B. patients. It might rid you of the necessity of looking after these people who at the present time are a loss and a source of unhappiness to themselves and their families. I understand at the moment that an individual case costs between £300 and £400.

Twice that amount.

I would say about twice the figure the Deputy originally mentioned.

That much money is lost money just because these people have to go and stay at home. It would be well to consider getting them into some group where some occupation would be got for them. I do not believe in the effectiveness of the present system of just asking employers to give these people work. No matter to what political Party we belong we all realise the problem that exists for the rehabilitation of ex-T.B. patients. Some special work must be got for these not quite healthy, not quite happy people. I think it is just a waste of time trying to start them out on small terms of employment at small remuneration.

In the medical journals recently we had discussions about the Irish emigrant becoming affected by T.B. in English cities. The big majority of our people are free from any signs of T.B. in the rural areas and if they are not vaccinated against it when they go into Dublin or Birmingham or London or even New York they are exposed for the very first time to open infection. Girls, particularly between the ages of 18 and 25, are liable to contract rapidly advancing T.B. in such cases and while the English may say we are sending them over T.B. patients I think we should take it as our duty to try and protect them. When dealing with this matter it is no use our advertising the probability that our people become affected after emigration. In Denmark they vaccinate their young people and ask them to show a certificate of vaccination before leaving the country. I think it would be well worth our while to force our people to be vaccinated by B.C.G. vaccine before going to Dublin, Birmingham or London—in other words before emigration. It would probably protect them against the severity of any attack if they were exposed to open cases of infection.

This is not a stigma on the Irish people because infection with T.B. happens to people who go into Chicago from the surrounding countryside, to those who go into Bagdad from the surrounding countryside or to those who go into London from the counties around it. It is a matter of our people not being protected when exposed to infection for the first time and at an age when they are most likely to contract T.B. I think the Minister would not be going too far wrong if he made vaccination compulsory. There might be difficulties in this country of forcing vaccination at the right age. In other countries where people have to do military service the authorities can get them at the right age when there is a military call-up. I would suggest strongly that for the sake of protection our people should be vaccinated before they emigrate.

I should like now to ask the Minister to press as rapidly as possible for increased accommodation for mentally deficient children. It is a very sad thing to have these children, beyond medical care and depending entirely on training in a proper hospital or in proper schools, being left running around the countryside and running under cars. The Minister will appreciate the fact also that children are very prone to imitate the quirks of other children with whom they associate. It is bad to leave these mentally deficient children without proper treatment and I would ask the Minister to press as far as possible for accommodation for them.

We are in the happy position of being able to close down fever hospitals due to medical treatment and inoculation. I am of the opinion that most infectious diseases in this country at the moment are at the stage of dying out but we should not for that reason risk their reappearance through neglecting inoculation. There is the danger that our people might suffer from a revirulence of the invading organisms and we could have a return of such diseases as smallpox, diphtheria and scarlet fever in a much stronger form. We will leave it to the Minister's Department to continue to impress upon people the importance of their protecting themselves against these diseases. When such diseases disappear one must not be content.

Would the Minister consider giving to the local dispensaries and private practitioners a direct pathological service to save sending people to the county hospitals and occupying beds which could be better used? It would probably cost a bit of money but it would save a fair number of lives and of hospital beds. I would like to get the Minister's comment on that. I should like to mention the school medical service at the moment. Every few years the children are examined, the cards are made out and put into a box and the children are left with their tonsils or adenoids untreated after the doctor leaves. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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