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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Jun 1955

Vol. 151 No. 10

Finance Bill, 1955—Committee Stage (Resumed).

SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 9:—

Before Section 7 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The Finance Act, 1920, as amended by Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1952 (No. 14 of 1952), shall as and from the 1st day of July, 1955, be amended by the substitution in Part I of the First Schedule to the said Finance Act, 1920, of the matter set out in the Fourth Schedule to this Act for the matter inserted therein by the said Section 8, and sub-section (1) of Section 3 of the said Finance Act, 1920, shall have effect accordingly.

(2) The duty of excise imposed by sub-section (2) of Section 3 of the Finance Act, 1920, shall, as and from the 1st day of July, 1955, be charged, levied and paid at the rate of £6 17s. the gallon (computed at proof) in lieu of the rate chargeable by virtue of sub-section (2) of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1952.

(3) Nothing in this section shall operate to relieve from or to prejudice or affect the additional customs duties or the additional excise duty in respect of immature spirits imposed by Section 9 of the Finance Act, 1926 (No. 35 of 1926).

I move this amendment on behalf of Deputy Lemass and, first of all, I want to know whether the Minister for Finance is accepting these amendments.

Deputy Aiken is very simple at this hour of the morning. If he wants to behave irresponsibly let him do so, but do not let him ask me to do so. I understand amendments Nos. 9 and 11 will be taken together and Nos. 10 and 12.

The Minister for Finance, I take it, is not accepting these amendments? If he is, he could save the time of the House by saying now that he intends to accept them.

Deputy Aiken cared very little for the time of the House last night.

He is very fresh this morning.

It is remarkable the Minister for Finance has not made up his mind and cannot say definitely that he is not accepting the amendments or that he is accepting them.

Make the case for it.

The case for it was made at great length throughout the country and over many years by no less a person than the Taoiseach, but the Minister for Finance will not say that he is now rejecting the advice which the Taoiseach once gave in relation to this tax. They expect to laugh it off and they expect to silence all opposition to the tactics of the Coalition Government since they came into office. During the election last year the Taoiseach dealt at length with this tax on whiskey as indeed he had dealt at length with it very often in previous years. I want to put it on record and I will read the extract from the Taoiseach's speech at meetings he addressed in Wexford and Enniscorthy, as reported in the Irish Times of 15th May, 1954. He said:—

"I challenge the Taoiseach to deny that the meaning of the fresh figures he has disclosed and which are only available to a person in Government is that in each of the two years 1952-53 and 1953-54, the Government got an average of £50,000 per year less duty on the higher rate than we got from the whiskey when whiskey was 5½d. a glass less in 1951-52. In 1953-54 they only recovered £500,000 of the £600,000 they lost in 1952-53. What good did the extra tax do? The Government got less revenue, the price went up savagely on the consumer, the consumption dropped over the two years by 80,000,000 half ones"——

By how many?

By 80,000,000 half ones the Taoiseach, then Deputy Costello, said. The quotation continues:—

"...the price went up savagely on the consumer, the consumption dropped over the two years by 80,000,000 half ones, the income of the publicans and the distillers dropped and accordingly the income-tax they pay fell. People in public houses and distilleries lost their jobs and it has been calculated that the farmers got from £150,000 to £200,000 less for their barley."

Now, in view of that statement by the Taoiseach, who made no promises he says now, is it not amazing that, when I ask a simple, direct question of the Minister for Finance as to whether he is going to accept the amendment put down by Deputy Lemass to do away with the increase in tax that was called savage and which was put on, as the Attorney-General said yesterday, for revenge, the Minister for Finance could not give me a direct "yes" or "no"? Does the Minister for Finance calculate that the keeping on of this tax this year is going to result in a reduction of consumption by 80,000,000 half ones and is it for the purpose of effecting such a reduction in the number of half ones consumed that he proposes to reimpose this tax? The Minister for Finance may not answer Deputies here in the House, but it is a question that a number of the people who were deceived into voting for the Coalition groups in the last general election are asking and to which they want an answer.

The Coalition groups would like the people to believe now that they made no promises in regard to the reduction of the tax on whiskey and beer and all the other taxes that were in operation when they were in opposition. We quoted a number of statements they made but in case they may have forgotten them let us put them on record here in relation to the tax on whiskey. The Tánaiste wrote to the publicans in his constituency on the 3rd May, 1954, when looking for their support and he addressed them in the following terms from his election headquarters in the Railway Hotel in Kildare:

"A Chara, as you are an elector in the County Kildare constituency, I take the liberty of enclosing herewith a copy of my election address and would kindly invite your attention, in particular, to the portion of the programme set out on page three under the heading ‘Reduction in Prices'. In view of the serious effect of increased taxation on cigarettes, beer and spirits which, no doubt, has had an injurious effect on your trade, I trust that you find it possible to give me your No. 1 vote in the forthcoming election, and kindly ask your relatives and friends to do likewise so that, with the aid of the Labour Party, I may advocate in the new Dáil a reduction of the taxes which so adversely affect your business and the consumers generally."

You copy that in the next election.

We shall not copy that in the next election or in any other election because the difference between the Fianna Fáil Party and the Coalition is that members of our Party, myself included, may from time to time make a foolish statement——

You surely do.

——along with the many wise statements we make, but we have never deliberately, treacherously and in cold blood set out to deceive the electorate. All this Coalition campaign was a calculated, cold-blooded bit of treachery on the public of this country, and the sneers and the gibes of the Coalition groups in the last few days prove it to the hilt.

There was no murder in it.

The Leader of the Fine Gael Party—not the present Taoiseach but Deputy Mulcahy—said that the first thing they would do, "the first task of the new Administration would be to lighten the burden of taxation now crushing our people". Deputy MacEoin, as he then was, on the 29th March, 1954, said:

"Our policy is to relieve once again the penal taxes that have been imposed by Fianna Fáil in the 1952 Budget."

This is one of the taxes which was imposed in the 1952 Budget and which the Taoiseach said reduced whiskey consumption by 80,000,000 half ones, which he said had reduced the income of the Exchequer and which Deputy Mulcahy, his Leader at the time, promised they would relieve. It is ridiculuous for the Minister for Finance to say that he made no promises simply because on this particular issue of this leaflet issued in Kildare they did not say categorically that if they got in they would reduce these prices and these taxes at once, but if the Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, as he then was, did not say it through his leaflet canvass he did say it from the platform.

I did not.

I heard him on the platform in Kildare.

In County Wicklow. I heard him speak of the couple of hundred thousand pounds he was going to get by a certain means and with which he was going to save the Irish nation from all it had suffered.

With £200,000?

He made various calculations and he was careful not to commit himself to figures to the effect that he was going to reduce the price of beer from 1/3 down to 11d. and cigarettes from 2/4 to 1/8, but all his canvassers in County Kildare did. They went around the country handing in these leaflets: "See what Fianna Fáil did on you. We are going to undo their bad work". The Attorney-General yesterday gave another proof of this cold-blooded treachery, this calculated treachery, which they practised on the electorate. It was represented to the electors at the last general election that the Attorney-General was to be the incoming Minister for Finance in case the Coalition got office and it was pointed out that, in 1948, when Deputy McGilligan took over as Minister for Finance, he reduced within a month of the end of the financial year the taxes on beer and cigarettes and it was said: "As was done in 1948, so it will be done in 1954".

No—"So we can do again": a very different matter.

So it would be done in 1954. It was Deputy McGilligan who said that he had reduced taxation within a few days of taking office in 1948 and "when we come in again, we will reduce it by £10,000,000 in ten minutes —£1,000,000 per minute." It was to be done within ten minutes, and, in order to make this bit of treachery more effective, Deputy McGilligan was sent to the radio, after this build-up of what he had done in 1948 in reducing taxation on beer and cigarettes and these other commodities within a few days of taking office in 1948. He there deliberately said to the people, who believed that he was going to be the Minister for Finance, that any Minister for Finance taking over could reduce taxation by several millions and he indicated that it should be £20,000,000.

The people naturally said: "This is on the word of a man who did take off taxation when he became Minister for Finance before and who, we are given to understand, will be Minister for Finance again." They took it that he was speaking not only his own mind but the mind of the Party that proposed to make him Minister for Finance once again. It was only after eight or nine months that we learned from Deputy McGilligan's own words that he did not in fact show his radio address to his colleagues. When Deputy Lemass was accusing him of having spoken on the radio the policy of the Coalition Government under Fine Gael, he denied it and said that they had not seen it.

He himself then dealt with the matter, following Deputy Lemass, and at column 386, Volume 149 of the Dáil Debates of 10th March last, he said, referring to his radio address:

"They said here to-day that it was probably done in consultation with my colleagues. I did not see any colleagues of mine before I had written it, because I was occupied in the morning in getting the broadcast right. I experience great difficulty in writing these things."

"I did not see any colleagues of mine before I had written it, because I was occupied in the morning in getting the broadcast right," but Deputy McGilligan, when he went to the radio station and indicated that taxation could be reduced by several million pounds—anything up to £20,000,000 was desirable—did not indicate that he had not shown his script to his colleagues, that he was speaking only for himself, and that he was not going to be Minister for Finance but that he was going to sidle out of that and give the baby over to somebody else. It was a cold-blooded and deliberate bit of treachery on the electors.

The other day he came back again to what he said on 10th March, because yesterday we all heard him going back on the quotation I have just given when he interrupted Deputy Lemass to say he believed the Party had known what he was going to say. On 10th March, as I have quoted, he said he did not see any of his colleagues before he had written it. The people have one lesson to learn from this, that is, that they have to parse every single word the Coalition groups say in any coming election.

The Taoiseach is very loud in saying he made no promises. In fact, in the famous speech which he always quotes to indicate that he made no promises, he did make several promises. I quote again from the Irish Times of 14th May, 1954, 13 months or so ago. On that occasion, having dealt with protection and the ideal of full employment, he said:—

"It is a cardinal feature of our policy that we shall honour every commitment to the farmer and provide him with a guaranteed price for wheat during not less than five years."

Was that a promise?

The Deputy is dealing with taxation in general. This section and the amendment to it deals with taxation on a specific commodity. The Deputy should keep to that point and to that point alone. Taxation in general does not arise.

It is alleged here that there was no promise made.

That has been dealt with fairly extensively. This is a proposal to put a tax on a specific commodity and a proposal to relieve taxation on that commodity. The Deputy should address himself to that.

It is a proposal to relieve the tax which the Government promised they would relieve and their justification for not relieving it now, although they promised to do so, was that they made no promise. I have pointed out that, in the speech which the Taoiseach made when he was seeking election, he in fact did make promises. The promise most frequently made all over the country was to throw high taxation overboard. That was placarded all around the country. All that the people had to do in order to throw high taxation overboard—to throw overboard the tax on whiskey, the 5½d. extra that the Taoiseach spoke about, the 6d. on cigarettes and so forth—was to vote for the Fine Gael candidates. Now Fine Gael say they never made any promises.

It was the Irish Press that said that.

Does the Minister for Finance deny that all around the country there was this poster which said: "Vote Fine Gael for lower taxation and for better times"? Do Fine Gael deny that there was a big cartoon 20 feet by 15 feet on every hoarding in the country which showed the electors throwing higher taxation and higher prices overboard?

They threw Fianna Fáil overboard.

The people believed that the Coalition groups meant to throw these things overboard as they had thrown overboard the taxation on whiskey, beer and cigarettes in 1948 when they reduced it within a few days of their coming into office.

I would ask the Deputy to confine himself to the question before the House. The Deputy has had a fair innings on general taxation. He should now confine himself to the question before the House, namely, the section and the amendment.

Deputy Aiken is concerned with the time of the House.

We threw Fianna Fáil overboard.

The Minister for Finance could have shortened this debate very much and indeed we might have had no discussion at all on it if he had simply indicated his intention when I asked him at the beginning of this debate whether or not he was going to accept this amendment the effect of which would be to reduce the tax to the level they said they would reduce it: if he had said "yes" to that question, there might have been no debate on it.

Nothing could be fairer than that.

Since the Minister refused to answer "yes" to that question, we have to discuss the whole matter because it is a matter of some importance. Votes were obtained on the promise of reducing these taxations and this tax specifically of which the Taoiseach spoke so much. He used the phrase "80,000,000 half ones" not once or twice in debates in this House but on every platform throughout the country and many times in this House. It is of some importance to know that last evening the Taoiseach remained in the House for some time but did not take part in the debate. This morning he was present at the beginning of the debate and then he walked out. I should like the Taoiseach to come back before the debate on this section closes and to hear him talk about the 80,000,000 half ones and the reduction in income which it is causing. I should like to hear the Taoiseach tell us why he is reimposing this tax on whiskey at this time—a tax which he described as "a savage tax". Is he reimposing it for the purpose of deliberately cutting down consumption, as they said we imposed the taxation? Is he imposing it in vengeance on the consumer, as the Attorney-General said yesterday, and, if not, what is the reason for imposing it?

You gave the public all the pledges.

Deputy Aiken claims that the difference between the Party which contains him as a member and all the Parties opposite him is that his Party never deliberately and in cold blood treacherously set out to deceive the people, while every other Deputy in the House representing any other Party than the Fianna Fáil Party was guilty of calculated treachery. I suspect that the real reason this and other amendments have been moved is that Deputies opposite are unable to get the people to listen to them at their after-Mass meetings in connection with the local elections and that they want to use this House to put their propaganda across.

Deputy Aiken talks about calculated treachery and deceiving the people. I am glad that he and his colleagues right and left of him at least have the grace to hang their heads in shame when they think of this phrase coming from Deputy Aiken. Do any of them remember the election campaign of 1951? Do they remember the banner slogan of that campaign—"You can trust Dev."? Do they remember how that slogan was used to emphasise the sea-green incorruptible honesty and honour of the Fianna Fáil Party campaign? We all remember how every pronouncement they made with regard to matters of policy, and so forth, was emphasised and underlined by the famous slogan: "You can trust Dev." I just want to make this comment. That slogan was never used again and never will. During the 1951 General Election campaign, when the Deputies opposite——

Obviously we cannot go back and discuss every election campaign. I suggest the Deputy might come to the section and to the amendment before the House.

Yes. The amendment deals with the taxes on whiskey which were first imposed in the Supplementary Budget of 1947. I think it is relevant to remind the House that a certain amount of discussion has taken place in relation to these taxes. Members of this Party and other Deputies in this House were accused yesterday evening and this morning by Deputy Aiken of indulging in calculated treachery, of setting out deliberately and in cold blood to deceive the people.

I want to remind the Deputies opposite of some of the discussion which took place in relation to these taxes. I want to remind Deputy Lemass, Deputy de Valera and Deputy Aiken in particular that the man appointed as Minister for Finance in the last Fianna Fáil Government spoke with particular emphasis with regard to the taxes that are under discussion in this amendment. Deputy MacEntee made a speech in the Town Hall of Rathmines at a time when he, Deputy Aiken and the rest of them were in opposition and, according to the newspaper reports—which have never been contradicted—he referred to rumours which, he said, were being spread by a number of persons in the licensed trade to the effect that if Fianna Fáil were returned to office the taxes imposed on drink in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 would be reimposed.

We can all picture Deputy MacEntee throwing up his hands to the high heavens in horror when he uttered this phrase: "There is no truth whatever in that." Deputy MacEntee gave that categoric assurance to the people. He was a former Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance and he was about to become Minister for Finance again in a Fianna Fáil Government. He gave a definite assurance that there was no truth whatever in the rumours which he alleged were being spread that Fianna Fáil would reimpose these taxes. Apparently, the people who were spreading the rumours knew Fianna Fáil form better than Deputy MacEntee did.

Mr. de Valera

Did they know the £15,000,000 deficit——

They knew about the £24,000,000 which was bequeathed to Deputy de Valera. They knew the form of the Fianna Fáil Party better than Deputy MacEntee did. They did not intend to be gulled by the slogan: "You can trust Dev." In any event, they made up their minds that, in relation to the tax on whiskey, you could not trust Dev. very far. It took them just nine months to see exactly how far you could trust him in relation to that tax. In the same speech, to emphasise this theme that was running through the Fianna Fáil pronouncements with regard to these taxes, Deputy MacEntee had this to say. Lest anyone would for a moment think that he would come into the category of people who were described by Deputy Aiken a few minutes ago as indulging in calculated treachery, setting out cold-bloodedly and treacherously to deceive the people, lest there be the slightest danger that any of the people being asked to support Fianna Fáil would put Deputy Aiken, Deputy MacEntee, Deputy Lemass or any of them in that category, Deputy MacEntee continued, in the same speech as that in which he gave that assurance with regard to these taxes——

"The people were being asked to decide whether politics in Ireland was to be a dirty game played by confidence tricksters who were prepared to promise anything to dupe the people into voting for them."

"You can trust Dev, these taxes won't go back"—and nine months later these taxes were back again.

Mr. de Valera

To meet a £15,000,000 deficit.

Has the Leader of the Opposition got a gramophone record? It would save him a lot of trouble.

Mr. de Valera

I hope it will get through the country.

A parrot-cry like that must be rather tiring.

Mr. de Valera

We will see to it that it will get through the country. There was £15,000,000 to meet. You have no £15,000,000 to meet; you have a balanced Budget.

Deputy de Valera, the Leader of the Opposition, and all of his colleagues just a year or so ago—despite the fact that the people had made it quite clear that they wanted to throw certain people overboard—withstood the demand of the Irish people for a general election, in order to put his Budget proposals before the people, and he wanted to talk to his heart's content about his £15,000,000. That went over to the people, it was put before the people and the people gave their answer. Deputy de Valera should have the grace to accept it.

Mr. de Valera

Yes, £10,000,000 of it was supposed to be put on deliberately, as revenge or something of the sort.

Mr. de Valera

Of the sort mentioned by the Attorney-General last night.

You ought to speak of the £24,000,000.

Mr. de Valera

I hope to have an opportunity of speaking before the end.

There is no one on this side of the House, who even if they were in a position to do so, would deny Deputy de Valera the opportunity of talking about his £15,000,000, if he feels like it. Anyone over here is in a position to give him that assurance, but I assume that if he talks about his £15,000,000 he will be prepared to listen to a certain amount of talk about the £24,000,000 also.

Mr. de Valera

It will easily be answered.

The Deputies opposite are still smarting under the fact that the Irish people decided that they have had enough of Fianna Fáil. They bitterly resent the fact that Deputies on this side pointed out to the people exactly what Fianna Fáil had done in relation to the taxes now under discussion, the fact that—not-withstanding the assurances given by Deputy Lemass, Deputy MacEntee and the rest of them that these taxes would not be reimposed, that it was unnecessary to reimpose them—the taxes were reimposed. We pointed that out to the people, as we were entitled to do. As far as I am concerned, I will continue pointing it out to the people. Fianna Fáil resent that. They resent the fact that the Fianna Fáil actions in relation to these taxes and to other matters were so fully and so effectively exposed to the people. I think it was Deputy Childers who referred to the pamphlet which Deputy Aiken produced here this morning as being "damnably effective". It was— and it was intended to be effective. It was intended to drive home to the people just how far you could trust Fianna Fáil.

This amendment and the other amendments which have been tabled here are not tabled seriously. Deputy Lemass and Deputy MacEntee yesterday evening admitted that these were not being tabled with the serious object of having them accepted. Yet we have this little bit of play-acting from Deputy Aiken this morning. He stands up and asks: "Is the Minister prepared to accept this amendment?" Did he not hear Deputy Lemass last night; did he not hear Deputy MacEntee last night? I do not know what is the order of ascendancy in that Party, I think Deputy Lemass still has a head lead on Deputy Aiken; but in any event his two colleagues put themselves on record last night as admitting, with varying degrees of frankness, that these amendments were not tabled seriously. They did not go so far as to admit that they were put down merely for the purpose of brazen play-acting, but that in fact is the purpose of these amendments. Deputy Lemass, Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Aiken are not endeavouring to make any kind of serious contribution to the financial discussions in this House. I hope the day will come when some arrangements might be made that the time of the House will not be wasted in the manner in which it has been wasted so far by the Deputies opposite.

Before I go on with this discussion of the spirit duty, I would like to make a passing reference —that Deputy O'Higgins can do nothing to asperse the honour of Deputy Eamon de Valera. So far as this discussion has gone this morning, we once more have a suggestion made that we promised to maintain taxation at the 1951 level. I think it is best to admit that we trusted far too much in the maintenance of the tradition of balanced Budgets which has been the case in this country for many years and which was admittedly the case even in the previous régime, when Cumann na nGaedhael was in office before 1932. I can hardly believe that either Deputy MacEntee or any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party would have made the promises or would have made statements in regard to keeping taxation at its current level, if they had known they would be faced with an unbalanced Budget, with £24,000,000 that was completely committed to the repayment of capital charges and with the obligation of implementing new policies such as the Social Welfare Act and the Health Act which, with the unbalanced items in the Budget, total £15,000,000.

All I can say is this, that on the next occasion that a general election comes before the people of this country, we will be very much more careful, we will know that a Coalition Cabinet has been in office and that, particularly in a time of dissolution, the members of the Cabinet have quarrelled within themselves and are quite capable of leaving an unbalanced Budget. The next time, we will have to be certain that every time we make any reference to current taxation we shall say: "Provided that the Budget which has been passed previous to the election is in fact balanced and that the expenditure will be met by revenue."

In this particular case we are discussing something rather different from income-tax and the tax on beer. There is more opportunity for the Minister to accept this amendment than there was in the case of income-tax and the beer tax yesterday, when Deputy MacEntee and Deputy Lemass made it quite clear that, although the Coalition had promised to reduce these taxes, if the Budget was to be balanced they would in fact have to maintain them. There were widespread allegations made that the tax imposed on whiskey was uneconomic; that it was related to the law of diminishing returns; that sums which varied from £500,000 to £1,000,000 were being lost to the Exchequer through overtaxation of whiskey. Statements were freely made throughout the country during the general election that if the whiskey tax had not been imposed more revenue would have come from it and other forms of taxation could have been relieved.

I remember hearing in Kilbeggan, where whiskey is distilled, very definite charges made that the reduction of employment in the Kilbeggan distillery—and employment was reduced also in the other small distillery at Tullamore which was similarly affected—could have been avoided and that, moreover, the hard-pressed worker was paying more for other commodities because money was being deliberately lost to the Exchequer by the improvidence of the then Minister for Finance.

We are discussing, therefore, on this amendment a slightly different problem and I want to ask the Minister for Finance whether he has changed his mind; whether he now believes that the whiskey tax is economic from the standpoint of collecting the revenue which it was designed to collect, and what has changed the situation? I would like to ask him whether he deliberately believes in keeping the consumption of whiskey, particularly among the less wealthy sections of the community, at the level which he believed was low when the tax was imposed by us? That is a perfectly fair question because, as I have said, the implication was that the law of diminishing returns was operating, not only in connection with whiskey, I might add, but in connection with other taxes as well; and the suggestion was made that we could collect far more money if we reduced taxes. We did not know how to impose taxation and we were deliberately imposing taxation to cut down consumption and we could collect the same money, or even more, if we reduced taxation.

In the case of whiskey that particular charge was made and it was based on the fact that for the first part of the period the consumption of whiskey had declined. Why has the Minister for Finance not changed his mind? In Kilbeggan and in Tullamore, where there are two small distilleries, there was very considerable agitation during the general election over this and people made speeches in Kilbeggan on behalf of the Coalition Parties stating quite clearly that employment would be increased in the distillery if the Coalition Government got back to office because there would undoubtedly be the abolition of the increase in the tax, which was ridiculous and ineffective and, indeed, had the effect of reducing the consumption of whiskey without bringing any corresponding return of revenue.

As the Minister knows, the small distilleries are particularly affected; and he must know, since representations have been made to him by representatives of both these small distilleries which were affected, the high overhead costs per gallon of whiskey distilled and the difficulty of financing whiskey under bond and the overwhelming prestige over a period of years in the case of the larger distilleries; and I would have thought that he would have done something to live up to the promises that were made in the areas where whiskey is distilled in Offaly and Westmeath and do something to help in this matter.

As I have said we have a perfect right to ask him for an answer to this specific question: What has caused him to change his mind about the economic value of the tax? We put down this amendment not merely to try to make the Coalition Parties make statements in regard to their promises and what they really meant by them, but also with the object of finding out whether, after all, everything that was said about the tax on whiskey was wrong from the financial and revenue standpoint.

I have already, by way of interjection, described the amendment Deputy Aiken moved for Deputy Lemass this morning quite properly as sheer irresponsibility. We had the pattern last night and I do not propose to travel over the same ground again. I propose to refer to any difference there may be in relation to this amendment as compared with the amendments we discussed last night. Deputy Childers has asked a specific question. The fact is that was the position at the time these criticisms were made. In 1952 my predecessor expected he would get an extra £1,000,000 from whiskey. In fact, instead of getting £1,000,000 extra, he got £500,000 less.

I am talking about the criticisms in 1954.

I am talking about the facts. I quite appreciate that facts are things the gentlemen on the far side of the House do not like because, when all is said and done, it is on the facts the people must judge.

Mr. de Valera

Exactly.

The facts show exactly where the Fianna Fáil Government stands and where the inter-Party Government stands. Let the people judge on those facts. I am perfectly happy, and I have said this everywhere, that the people should take the unvarnished results of the three years of inter-Party Government from 1948 to 1951 and the results of the one year from 1954 to 1955 and put them on one side of the scales and put on the other side of the scale the effect of Fianna Fáil governmental policy from 1951 to 1954. That is by way of judging policy. I could go into all this on a much wider basis but I would be very properly reminded that we are dealing with a particular amendment.

So far as the specific amendment is concerned, that was the position when these duties were imposed. It is not the position now. The position now is quite simple. The cost of this amendment would be exactly the amount that I am proposing to set aside in the current year to meet the increase in old age, widows' and blind pensions. Anybody who wants to have a balanced Budget and who votes for this amendment is saying that whiskey should be reduced in preference to increasing these pensions. I prefer to increase the pensions.

Mr. Lemass

The effect of what the Minister has just said is that the present Taoiseach was talking a lot of nonsense during the general election.

That may be the Deputy's grasp of it, but the position is not so.

Mr. Lemass

When the Taoiseach was trying to prove that the Exchequer would get more revenue by reducing the whiskey duty he was wrong: is not that what the Minister has just said? He has now found out he was wrong; the higher duty is bringing in the revenue anticipated. But the Minister has just said that Deputy MacEntee was wrong to the extent of £1,500,000. When Deputy Costello, now Taoiseach, went out during the general election trying to prove to the people that the Exchequer would get more revenue by reducing the whiskey duty he was talking nonsense. He has since found that out and the Minister for Finance, on that argument, goes to grass. I want to leave this question of election promises aside for the moment. It seems now that promises were given since the election. Prior to the Budget, the Minister received representatives of the publicans' organisation and also representatives of the trade unions which cater for the publicans' assistants. I do not know what happened.

Do not say that I made promises, then.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know what happened when these deputations were meeting the Minister but apparently both the representatives of the publicans and the representatives of the publicans' assistants left the Department of Finance under the impression that some relief in taxation would be given in the Budget.

That is untrue.

Mr. Lemass

Both Mr. Hedigan, of the publicans' organisation, who was a Fine Gael candidate in the election, and Mr. Walter Beirne, of the employees' union, have said so since.

They have not.

Mr. Lemass

And they have expressed their extreme disappointment that relief was not given.

That statement by Deputy Lemass is untrue. Neither Mr. Hedigan nor Mr. Beirne has said I promised any such reduction.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister is misquoting. I said both the representatives of the publicans and the representatives of the assistants' union left these discussions under the impression that they were likely to get relief from the Budget.

Deputy Lemass used the specific word "promise".

Mr. Lemass

No, not specifically. I did not.

He did. Deputy Lemass said promises had been made since.

Mr. Lemass

No; on the contrary, I said I had no information whatever as to what happened at these interviews but the spokesmen of the publicans' organisation and the spokesmen of the assistants' organisation have since said that they were expecting to get relief in the Budget and were extremely disappointed when no such relief was forthcoming. What has happened since? The publicans' organisation has moved to secure an increase in prices and, judging by the statements they have issued to the Press, the increases they are seeking are very considerable. They have said they must get relief and if relief was not forthcoming in the Budget they must get it from the consumers in the form of higher prices. I repeat what I said yesterday, that the publicans are being led to believe that these increases will come—perhaps not the full increases they are seeking, but some increases—in the prices of beer and spirits when the local elections are over.

I do not know if that is likely to be beneficial either to the publicans or to the brewing and distilling trades. During the course of the election various Fine Gael spokesmen represented both the brewing and distilling industries as tottering on the verge of bankruptcy, not likely to carry on unless some relief in taxation was given, because, of course, there is a very considerable difference from the point of view of those trades in securing the relief they need in the form of reduced charges as against higher prices. It is not unlikely that any increase in prices will reduce consumption, increase the number of teetotallers in prices will reduce consumption, increase the number of teetotallers in the country, to Deputy O'Leary's horror——

You made them all teetotallers.

Mr. Lemass

The effect will be a contraction of output and employment at the manufacturing end. If, however, relief in the form of reduced taxes is not to be forthcoming, then if there is foundation for the publicans' case they are justified in seeking to put into motion the machinery which may secure for them, with Government consent, increases in prices.

The trade union organisation, on the other hand, has said that while recognising the difficulty of the publicans, they are not prepared to delay the claim they are making for improved conditions for the employees. The president of the Publicans' Assistants' Union has stated that many hundreds of publicans' assistants are emigrating because they see no future in their employment in this country. They have also urged that it is better for the trade to get relief in the form of reduced taxation rather than in the form of higher prices but they are apparently supporting a case for higher prices now that the relief in taxation which they were led to expect would be forthcoming is not available to them.

There is surely a case for considering this amendment in the light of these statements, apart altogether from any pledges which Ministers and their supporters may have given during the election campaign. It is, of course, preposterous to put the revenue derived from the whiskey tax against the specific charge for old age pensions: that is not merely a misleading picture to put before the House, but it makes nonsense of all the assertions of Fine Gael spokesmen during the election campaign about the practicability of securing tax reductions through economies in the Government's administration.

There is one aspect of this matter of election promises, however, to which I think some emphasis should be given. The attitude of the Labour Party in this regard is still ambiguous. Deputy Aiken has quoted the circular issued by the Leader of that Party during the election campaign, a circular in which he referred specifically to the increased taxes on tabacco, beer and spirits, and asked for support so that he could advocate in this House with the Labour Party the reduction of these taxes. Now the only member of the Labour Party who has spoken in this Dáil on the subject of the whiskey tax has spoken against its reduction—that is Deputy O'Leary.

No, I have not spoken at all.

Mr. Lemass

You spoke last year on this issue and said you would vigorously oppose a reduction.

Sure the poor people are not able to buy whiskey but the Yanks are always drinking the whiskey you are talking about. You made all our people pioneers by your Budget.

Mr. Lemass

Go on, that is what you said. What Deputy Norton said was that with the aid of the Labour Party he would advocate in this House a reduction in the tax on whiskey. If there is any difference within the Labour Party I do not want to reveal it now, but it is perhaps desirable that the position of that Party in relation to this tax should be clarified. Are they now against removing this tax in principle because the whiskey is mainly consumed by the Americans? —which is not true, of course.

Why did you put it on?

Mr. Lemass

Why did Deputy Norton advocate its reduction? Was it because he believed it was desirable that the tax on whiskey should be reduced? Was the Labour Party supporting him in that or was it merely a personal campaign of his own to secure non-Labour support at the expense of Deputy Sweetman in Kildare?

You are a soft man.

Mr. Lemass

I have never been accused of that before. Leaving aside the political aspect of this amendment, I think the Minister should take this opportunity of clarifying the position regarding his relations with the publicans' organisations and the Publicans' Assistants' Union. Nobody will accuse Mr. Hedigan of being prejudiced against this Government—he stood with Deputy McGilligan as a candidate in a Dublin City constituency on behalf of Fine Gael. What he has said about the Government since is on record and is to the effect that he accused the Government of reneging on their undertaking to him.

Would the Deputy please quote?

Mr. Lemass

The quotations can be obtained.

But the Deputy has not got them? The Deputy's second part of his statement a minute ago was quite fair—that is not.

Mr. Lemass

He certainly said that the publicans got better treatment from Deputy MacEntee as Minister for Finance than they were getting from Fine Gael despite all the promises that were given to the publicans' association by the Fine Gael Party. If there is no intention of giving the publicans relief in the form of higher prices, then they should be so informed. I think it is undesirable that the situation that now exists in that trade should continue with the trade unions looking for higher wages and better conditions for their assistants when higher wages and better conditions cannot, presumably, be given unless the trade get either lower taxes or higher prices.

The position of the Government should be clarified. If they are not going to give increased prices, the publicans should be so informed and the Publicans Assistans' Union should be so informed. If they are going to give higher prices, or if the Government is prepared to concede the principle of higher prices subject to the report of the Prices Advisory Body, then the position is that the Government has come to a definite decision that lower taxes will not be given and if relief is to be secured it must be secured through higher prices. The situation should be clarified and this is a very suitable opportunity for doing so.

In view of the fact that Deputy Lemass has—I think quite deliberately—misconstrued what some of the publican spokesmen have said, I just want to put this on record. I saw deputations from various publicans' organisations, from the licensed vintners, the Association of Vintners and organisations from other parts of the country and the union concerned. I listened to all that they had to say and when they had finished I told them that when framing the Budget there were three things I had to consider. One was the economic position of the country as a whole. The second was the revenue and expenditure, the national position. The third was, the considerations in respect of each particular trade and that they had put to me the considerations in respect of their trade.

I told them that I would bear all these three things in mind when I was framing the Budget and more than that I was not prepared to say to any of them. I did. I carried out my undertaking implicitly and to the last letter and nobody, no matter what twist Deputy Lemass may try to put on any statement, has ever suggested, except Deputy Lemass, that I made any promise to them which I did not carry out.

Mr. Lemass

What did you do about prices?

Do not run away from it. You made an allegation that was untrue.

Mr. Lemass

We will get the quotation.

Did not the Minister's Party make all the promises possible to the trade? Did not they lead them up the tree and tell them that as soon as they would get into office they would reduce the tax on beer? Did not they tell them they would reduce the tax on spirits? Even at this late stage, I do not see why members of the Fine Gael Party do not get up in this House and say: "We did make false promises, we have found we were wrong" and admit it now like honest men. Apparently that is too much to expect. We are reaching a time in Ireland when we cannot have honesty in public life.

Not while the Deputy remains.

You cannot have honesty in public life when people who form the Government to-day, who have deliberately promised lower taxation, who got all these publicans together and tried to exploit them for their own political purposes, and, when they get into office, tell them that they will do nothing for them.

I wonder did the Minister for Finance consider the economic position, the national position and all the other points that he has quoted just now, when he was out on the hustings at the last election trying to misrepresent this Party when we were the Government? The present Minister is not facing up to his promises. He is not honouring the promises that he made to the loyal publicans that stood by him and his Party.

The present position of the trade definitely requires that the Minister should do something for them. Deputy MacEntee, as Minister for Finance, gave relief to the trade in his Budget and intended to continue in that way provided the financial position merited it. Of course, the Minister for Finance, just as they all did during the last general election, cries about the poor people, the old age pensioners, the widows and orphans and all the others that they cry about.

Do you object to giving them an increase?

Ah, no. I would like to see them getting £5 if the resources of the nation would allow it.

The old age pensioners come before whiskey, anyway.

I wonder where the £10,000,000 is that the present Taoiseach alleged that we had up our sleeves when the 1952 and the 1953 Budgets were being discussed, that we had budgeted to the extent of £10,000,000 overtaxation. Now they come along and tell the publicans and this House that they have to impose this tax. If they were honouring their promises properly, the old age pensioners, according to the Labour Party when they were on the hustings, were to get a lot more money.

You had them crucified. You should be over here, not over there.

God forbid.

It is over here you should be.

If Deputy O'Leary does not restrain himself. I will have to ask him to leave the House.

Check the other people talking over there.

The Deputy is making a charge against the Chair. The Deputy will withdraw that.

I withdraw it if I am making a charge, but I am not.

The Deputy is making a charge. He is interrupting every Deputy who rises to his feet. The Deputy will restrain himself.

It is hard to listen to a worker in Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy has his remedy if he cannot listen.

One will always have sympathy for Deputy O'Leary.

I am not in a madhouse, anyway.

What about the three white mice?

Deputy O'Leary is like the remainder who remain as quiet as mice on occasions.

Will Deputy Burke come to the amendment?

On this amendment I want to point out the hypocrisy of the Minister for Finance saying in this House that he had to do something for the old age pensioners by keeping the tax on spirits and beer. Will he tell the House where is the £10,000,000 that his leader, the Taoiseach, alleged that we had when we introduced our Budget of 1952. Is he aware that the licensed trade has deteriorated greatly and that a number of employees in the trade have emigrated because they see no future in it? One of the reasons why they see no future in the trade is that they cannot believe the promises that were made by responsible statesmen who are now making up this Government.

What about Deputy MacEntee's promise in Rathmines?

They cannot believe the promises that were made and they see the shilly-shally policy that is being adopted. I have challenged them in this House this morning to get up and say: "We were wrong in the statements. We find we were wrong." If they do that they will recover some respect nationally. It will be very difficult for people to take seriously the promises of any public men in future because the promises that have been made so lavishly have not been fulfilled. They went around the country with pamphlets during the election. A number of the pamphlets have already been discussed. They referred to the 1948, the 1951 and the 1952 Budgets. They indicated what they would do when they would get in. When challenged about this in the House they say: "We did not make it,""I did not make it,""It was not made by me." The Minister in his election address in Kildare has the same thing and he is denying that he made any promise at all. Would Deputy Childers give me a copy of the election address?

Is the Deputy short of a copy? I must send him another copy.

If that is not insidious propaganda I do not know what is.

It was good propaganda. It is the truth.

It is deceit.

I would ask the Minister to get up and say he was wrong.

Every word of that is true.

What is wrong?

Every word of that is true.

The Minister's canvassers went around and told the gullible people in Kildare—the same was done in the rest of Ireland—that when they got into office they would reduce taxation to the 1951 level. Now when they are challenged in the House they say they never made such statements and promises. That is the attitude of responsible leaders of the Government to-day. That is bad for the country from the national point of view. We cannot have any confidence in public men when they adopt a policy of that kind. It is the poor who suffer. Fianna Fáil did more for the poor and the working people of the community and for every other section than the Labour Party. Any advancement in regard to national and social policy was introduced by Fianna Fáil.

That does not seem to arise.

It is the Labour Party who put Fianna Fáil into power first. You ran away.

I think the most noticeable thing about this discussion is the difference between Fianna Fáil when in office and when in Opposition. When Fianna Fáil were in Government they increased the taxes on beer and tobacco but when they are in opposition they are in favour of a reduction. We had two speeches from Deputies Lemass and Childers expressing solicitude for the publicans on the one hand and the small distilleries on the other.

What are the facts about this matter? When Fianna Fáil was in Government in 1947 they introduced a Supplementary Budget in October of that year. In that Supplementary Budget they raised the taxes on beer and tobacco. We at that time were in opposition and said that if we got in we would take off those taxes. Within four months a change of Government had taken place and the taxes were repealed. That situation continued until the election of 1951. During the course of that particular election, because of rumours that were apparently being spread through the licensed trade, two prominent members of the Fianna Fáil Party spoke on the question of beer and spirit taxes. Deputy Lemass, as he then was, said, as reported in the Sunday Press of May 13th, 1951:—

"A Coalition Minister has said that Fianna Fáil if elected would increase taxes on beer and tobacco. Why should this tax be necessary? There is no special reason why we should reimpose these taxes."

Mr. Lemass

Go on. That is only half the quotation.

Deputy MacEntee spoke at Rathmines Town Hall and said, as reported in the Irish Independent of the 16th May:—

"A number of persons in the licensed trade were spreading rumour that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power taxes imposed on drink in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 would be reimposed. There is no truth in any such rumour."

Within ten months, on the 2nd April, 1952, Fianna Fáil, then in Government, reimposed the taxes on beer, tobacco and spirits. When Deputies Childers and Lemass express solicitude for either the publicans or the workers in the distilleries we want the people in these particular trades not to judge on speeches and not to judge on either promises or talk but to judge on the record. The record clearly proves that when Fianna Fáil are in Government they do one thing and when in opposition they say another.

When in opposition, two leading members of that Party stated that these taxes would not be reimposed, but within ten months the taxes had been reimposed. The ill-effects to which Deputy Childers referred this morning—that were felt by the distillers, the publicans, the employees of the publicans and the members of the Licensed Vintners' and Grocers' Union —all flowed from the Fianna Fáil Budget of 1952. When Deputies come in here and talk about their interest in the effects of these high taxes and when they appeal to the Minister for Finance to repeal them, is it not reasonable to ask them why, when they had a majority and when they had given specific pledges that these taxes would not be put back, the taxes went on?

Mr. de Valera

£15,000,000 is the answer.

Deputy de Valera has been talking by way of interruption both last night and this morning. There is not a Deputy on either side of the House who will not let him speak. We will give him his head from now until 5 o'clock if he wants to talk about the taxes. The position is that the people can judge a policy only on results. On two specific occasions since 1947 Fianna Fáil introduced two Budgets dealing with taxes on beer and spirits. In both of those Budgets, in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 and the Budget of 1952, they reimposed heavy additional taxation on spirits, beer, tobacco as well as on the other commodities.

I know that the local elections are coming on next week and that it is no harm for Deputy Childers to create the impression in Kilbeggan or Tullamore that he was in favour of reduced taxes but results are the best test of any policy. Fianna Fáil in 1947 and 1952, the two occasions when they had a majority, raised the taxes on both beer and spirits. In May 1951, Deputy Lemass in Cork and Deputy MacEntee in Rathmines, undertook that if they were elected they would not reimpose the tax on beer and spirits. Now they are in opposition again and Deputy Lemass comes in here perturbed about the conditions in the licensed trade and Deputy Childers is anxious about the position of the smaller distilleries and the effect which the heavy tax had.

They had an opportunity in 1953. When Deputy MacEntee in his Budget of 1952 imposed the tax on spirits he estimated that the increased taxes on spirits, that is, on whiskey, would have given him £1,020,000. When the out-turn of that financial year had occurred, instead of getting the estimated increase, it was less by £504,000. In 1953 Fianna Fáil had a majority and Deputy Childers was a member of the Government then as were also Deputies Lemass and MacEntee. They knew the effect of these heavy taxes on distilleries or on the breweries as the case may be. They took no steps to grant reliefs but now, when in opposition again, they suggest that the present Minister for Finance should effect a reduction. As the Minister said this morning, the amount of revenue that would be lost as a result of this proposition is exactly equal to the increases which are being granted to the old age pensioners, the widows and orphans and the blind pensioners.

I think that the Minister did, in the remissions which he granted to the smaller breweries, show his interest and desire in a practical manner to help them in their special circumstances. I believe that the vast majority of the people agreed with him when he said that as part of Government policy we believe that the weaker sections of the community have the first claim on the resources of the State and that in a case of this sort it would be quite unreasonable to grant this proposed remission to the interests concerned rather than by increases in respect of old age pensions, blind pensions and widows and orphans.

We have had a great deal of talk about promises, posters and so forth, but the facts show that it was Fianna Fáil, on two different occasions, imposed in the first case, and reimposed in the second case, the burdens which affect the distilleries and which affect the publicans about whom Deputy Lemass is now so solicitous, and affect all those who derive their livelihood from the sale of beer and spirits. It was the inter-Party Government when they got the opportunity——

You have it now.

The circumstances are entirely different—to expect that from a Party getting into office two years after the penal Budget of 1952. We said, during the course of the by-elections in 1952, that if we own those elections and got in that then the remissions could be effected, but that once—the Deputies opposite know this particularly well—the pattern of expenditure gets to be in any sense rigid it is extremely difficult to change it.

The only occasion on which we did get the opportunity of doing it within a short time, we implemented the remissions. I do not believe that any publican or any employee in the licensed trade, or workers in the distilleries or small breweries, are impressed by the arguments used here by the Fianna Fáil spokesmen last night or this morning. They have only to throw their minds back—they have not to go to the Fine Gael Party or to the Labour Party and say: "Well, they said this but may be they will not do it," and they have not to listen to our speeches—in order to be convinced. They know from the records that it was the Party opposite that raised these taxes and increased the burdens which these particular sections of the economy are obliged to bear, and that the only occasion on which any remissions or reliefs to these trades or industries were granted was by the inter-Party Government in 1951 and by the remissions which the Minister for Finance has given to the smaller breweries in the Budget of this year.

I know it is difficult for people not to be impressed by the speeches and propaganda of the Deputies opposite. We want the people to judge on the results and on the facts. The results show that it was that Party that proposes now, when it is in opposition, not to increase taxes, but when they got into Government they on two occasions put on these heavy taxes. Now they express interest and solicitude for the distillery workers, for the licensed grocers and vintners and employees in these particular trades.

Similarly, in the case of other undertakings that were given, but which are irrelevant on this particular amendment, the facts again speak loudly. They give point to the undertaking that subsidies would not be reduced and within ten months the subsidies were cut as the people know. They also know that the taxes were reimposed in respect of beer and spirits. We ask the people to judge on the results rather than on the speeches or on the talk of the people opposite.

Mr. Lemass

May I intervene? The Minister for Finance suggested that I had misquoted Mr. John Hedigan, Chairman of the Licensed Grocers' and Vintners' Association. I propose now to quote his words as recorded in the Irish Independent of the 10th May last. Mr. John Hedigan is recorded as saying:—

"...it is most likely that prices of drinks will be increased in the near future."

"We had looked forward," he said, "with lively expectancy to the Budget of last week. We had expected, and felt that we had the right to expect, that the Minister for Finance would have followed the example of his predecessor and given some direct relief to the retail licensed trade of no less an amount than that which Deputy MacEntee had given in the 1954 Budget."

I think that that quotation indicates that I was perfectly accurate when I said that the spokesman of the Licensed Grocers' and Vintners' Association had said that, following his interview with the Minister for Finance, he expected, and felt that they had the right to expect, relief from the Budget.

The point I made was that the Deputy said that I had promised.

Mr. Lemass

I did not.

If the record shows that I am wrong I will apologise. If it shows that the Deputy is wrong will he apologise? That is a fair offer.

Mr. Lemass

I said they expected to get relief.

The Deputy used the word "promise".

Mr. Lemass

No.

I have said that if I am wrong I will apologise. If it is shown that the Deputy is wrong will he apologise?

The Minister played the same tricks on the publicans as on the electorate, and left them under the impression that he was going to give them relief.

Will the Deputy try not to be stupid?

The Minister for External Affairs, apparently is a neophyte sitting at the feet of the Attorney-General. The Attorney-General is also very adept in switching a debate from a real issue to one which he manufactures. The issue in the debate on this amendment to reduce the spirits duties, is not what Fianna Fáil did when it was in office and not what Fianna Fáil said when it was out of office, but what the Government promised when it was out of office and what it is failing to do now that it is in office.

The Minister for External Affairs has recited the history of the supplementary duties on beer and spirits. He has told the House that in 1947, under the Supplementary Budget, the duties on beer and spirits were increased. They were increased for a definite purpose: to enable the Government to cover the possible cost of subsidies on foodstuffs which the Fianna Fáil Government were about to introduce. They were introduced as a wise precaution to ensure that the Budget for 1947-48 would be like all other Budgets for which Fianna Fáil had been responsible prior to that time: that instead of showing a deficit on current expenditure, a deficit which would be met by borrowing and which would be passed on to succeeding generations, the country should pay its way and the State should pay its way as it went. That was an honest policy: that is the sort of policy which honest men try to follow in respect to their own individual expenditure and to their everyday concerns. Therefore, this Supplementary Budget was introduced and, quite frankly, the taxes on beer, spirits and tobacco were increased in order that the Government might make provision to cover the expenditure which was contemplated in respect to food subsidies.

The Minister for External Affairs has come in to tell us that the moment the Coalition Government came in they repealed those duties. Now, they are asking the people to believe that they have conferred great boons on them by maintaining the price of tea, more or less constant, and in reducing the price of butter by 5d. per lb., but during the election which preceded the advent of the Coalition in 1948 they went around telling the people that these things did not matter: that the subsidies in fact were only a way of disguising the consumer's expenditure, and of preventing the workers from securing the living wage which, if the real cost of living to the workers had been disclosed, they would have been justified in demanding. That is what the Labour Party were telling us and that is what some members of the Fine Gael Party were telling us.

However, as the Minister for External Affairs has reminded us this morning, when the first Coalition took office in 1948, they reduced the beer and spirits duties to their former level. They continued the subsidies, gradually tapering them off and providing for some part of the cost of those subsidies in a rather surreptitious way. For instance, there were two prices for bread, two prices for butter, two prices for tea and two prices for sugar. At the same time, they were compelling the Irish manufacturer of confectionery and other things to pay an enhanced price for his sugar and in that way they were, of course, compelling those workers who were engaged in the manufacture of sugar confectionery for export, to accept, perhaps, a lower standard of living than they might have been if this dishonest imposition had not been passed on to the Irish manufacturer of sugar confectionery.

That is what the Government did from 1948 and continued to do until 1951. Do not let us forget that while they had the two-price system in operation there was as much bread, as much butter, as much sugar and tea there for anybody who was rich enough to pay for it, and those who could not pay for it were kept strictly to the ration at the ration price. That is the subterfuge and the device that was adopted by our predecessors during the period 1948 to 1951.

But there was something more that had happened. What did follow from the repeal of the increases imposed in the Supplementary Budget? There followed this, that from the Budget of 1949, there was an openly disclosed deficit of about £2,700,000. I am speaking now from memory and without any memorandum on that matter in front of me, but Deputies who wish to verify my statement in this regard can go out and look at the statement which was issued to the House by the then Minister for Finance in the course of the preliminary part of his Budget speech of 1950. They will see there a disclosed deficit of £2,607,000, the fruit of a policy that had been pursued by the Coalition in refusing to live up to their just obligations and to find the revenue to cover the expenditure which they were undertaking.

That happened in the Budget of 1949, in the Budget of 1950 and in the Budget of 1951, as presented to this House. There was a concealed deficit. Those two Budgets of 1950 and 1951 did not balance because the then Minister for Finance did not meet the obligations that properly fell in respect of a number of subsidies, including that for fuel. But the position could not be concealed. Once there was a change of Government and the books were open to scrutiny we realised, and we warned this House in July, 1951, that after an examination of the figures it was clear to us that there would be a deficit of many millions of pounds on the Budget which my predecessor, the present Attorney-General, introduced, as Minister for Finance, in this House in May of 1951.

When the end of the year came and the books were closed with it, then it was clear that there was a deficit on the 1951 Budget of no less than £6,700,000. £6,700,000 was the deficit on the Budget of 1951 on the expenditure for that year, as it had been foreseen when the Dáil was precipitously dissolved on the 4th May of that year.

How much of that was due to fuel?

It does not matter.

There was £6,700,000 of a deficit which the Fianna Fáil Government which succeeded the first Coalition had to meet and it was a running deficit, a deficit which was going on from year to year, because the increases in Civil Service remuneration were continuing from year to year and the increases in old age pensions which were promised by the Labour Party but which we had to implement were going on from year to year.

I want to give credit where credit is due. Let me say this. The fact that the deficit on the 1951 Budget was only £6,700,000 was due very largely to the Labour Party. If it was due to one element in the Coalition more than to any other it was due to the Labour Party. It was due to the inaction of the Labour Party in regard to the pledges which they had specifically given to their supporters that, if they were returned to power in 1948, there would be increases in the social welfare services, there would be increases in the health services and there would be no means test.

These are the things which the Labour Party spokesmen promised to the electorate during the general election of 1948. These were the three carrots which were kept dangling before the people during the three years that the Coalition were in office and it was on one of them that the Coalition broke up. The Coalition broke up because of the refusal of one element in the Coalition to honour the pledge in regard to the health services. It broke up because of the refusal of the Fine Gael element to honour the pledge which the Labour element in the Coalition had given to those who voted for them, to bring in extended health services and to bring in social welfare legislation without any means test.

I am afraid that the Deputy is getting away from the amendment.

Perhaps so, but the point I wish to make is that in so far as the Budget of 1951 disclosed a deficit of more than £6,700,000, the gratitude for the fact that it was not higher is due to the Labour Party because if they had fulfilled their promises and if they had brought in the Social Welfare Act which we brought in in 1952 and if they had brought in the health services which we introduced in 1953 and which have since been suspended, the deficit in the 1951 Budget would not have been £6,700,000 but £15,000,000. It must be admitted straight away that the Fianna Fáil Government gave effect to the pledges that had been given by the Labour Party, because after all our policy has been one of social progress. We are the people who brought in the children's allowances; we are the people who brought in the widows' and orphans' benefits; we are the people who brought in the first Health Act on which all successive legislation has been based.

You may thank the late Tim Murphy for the widows' and orphans' benefits.

We brought in the widows' and orphans' benefits. What I am saying is that the Government which introduced these measures of social amelioration for the benefit of the people of the country were the Fianna Fáil Government. Therefore, because we were such a progressive Party, when in office we had to fulfil the pledges made by all sides of the House during the election of 1951 that there would be improved social services, that there would be a new Social Welfare Act and improved health services. All of this cost money and that is why the Budget of 1952, on the basis of taxes as they existed in 1951, would have shown a deficit of £15,000,000 just because we undertook and we implemented what the Labour Party had promised to do but had failed.

You did not give an extra 2/- a week to the Tipperary worker.

And that is why we are back to discussing this figure of £15,000,000 which has been mentioned here several times. And let us remember now that the Attorney-General said he could reduce expenditure by many million pounds. I wonder how many of those millions he had hoped to get from the social services, from the health services, from the unemployment benefits, from the widows' and orphans' allowances, and from the children's allowances which the present Taoiseach described in 1947 as merely a row of medicine bottles.

Might I again point out that all of this is not relevant to the amendment?

Is not this a spirit amendment?

I have been dealing with the speech made by the Minister for External Affairs this morning in which he spoke about what Fianna Fáil did when in office and when out of office. I am telling what Fianna Fáil had to do when in office: they had to find £15,000,000 to put into operation and maintain social services as we have them to-day.

But you did not pay the civil servants.

Let me get back——

To the amendment.

——to what I said in the beginning that what is really the issue here is not what Fianna Fáil said in 1951 or what Fianna Fáil said in 1952 but what those who formed the Coalition Government said in 1954. They had the excuse last year that they were just taking office and that therefore they could not start playing hanky-panky with the State finances as they had done when they took office in 1948. They said, as I had to say in 1951: "We will see how the year turns out and when we have ascertained the situation for ourselves we will bring in a Budget on lines which will be in the public interest in relation to taxation." They brought in a Budget in 1955 and how does it and in what respect does it differ from the Budget of 1952?

It gives reliefs.

The reliefs are insignificant, except from the point of view of the people who benefit. You might describe them in the same terms as the farthing damages or the shilling damages or the pound damages which a certain member of the Coalition secured when he sued for libel.

I have heard many irrelevant points raised by the Deputy here this morning, but his last remark was the most irrelevant of all.

We are on spirit duties.

I am asking now that since the Government has been in office for 12 months, since they have had an opportunity of making those sweeping savings——

We have four years to go.

——in the cost of Government without much effort, how is it they are not giving the taxpayer even the opportunity to take a glass of whiskey? How is it they have not given the people the benefit of these savings, which, let me repeat, the present Attorney-General assured the electorate could be secured without much effort? I do not want to deal with the Attorney-General. I think the Attorney-General last night put himself in an absurd position. We had talk of a dictionary republic but we had a dictionary defence from the Attorney-General last night. The Attorney-General tried to obliterate from the public memory the fact that he had pledged himself to make reductions to the extent of several million pounds, which, of course, conjure up figures like £10,000,000 or £20,000,000, not a mere £1,000,000 and part of £1,000,000. What did he try to convey to those listening to him when he was talking over Radio Éireann?

The one thing that this last defence has shown is that whatever confidence is to be reposed in any portion of what the Attorney-General said, the electorate will not believe the Attorney-General even out of a sworn affidavit in regard to any simple statement of fact after hearing him on the Vote on Account, the Budget and on the Finance Bill. The real point I want to get at is that these amendments, which ask that the duties on beer and spirits should be reduced, are really designed, if there is anything in the statements made by the Taoiseach in May of last year, to help the Minister for Finance. After all, the Taoiseach was very confident that if the duty on spirits were reduced the Exchequer would benefit. That was the view the present Taoiseach tried to convey and to impress on the electorate last year. Here is his chance now. Let the Taoiseach try the experiment; let the Minister for Finance hearken to the teachings of his leader and let him reduce the spirit duty to the level at which it stood in 1951 or prior to 1952. According to the Taoiseach, if he does that he will unlock a vast treasure chest, gold will flow into the Exchequer because the people will drink more whiskey though they may not be much more sober.

If the Minister for Finance does that the distillers throughout the country will be saved and there will be a better market for barley. We will, in effect, be on the pig's back if only the Minister for Finance will hearken to the teachings of his Taoiseach and, by reducing the duty on spirits, increase the yield to the Exchequer. That is our real point. We are not in this House to act as partisans. We know the difficulties of the Minister for Finance and we are anxious to help him. And now let him, as I said, be a good boy. After all the Taoiseach is an old hand at the political game and we have been told he is surrounded by a staff of back room boys to advise him on economical and financial matters. I notice he has been particularly silent during this debate. But he has told us that if the duty on spirits were reduced the greater part of the difficulties of the Minister for Finance would be solved because the increases in revenue would more than offset any lessening in taxation.

We have the peculiar position to-day of the Fianna Fáil Party proposing and supporting an amendment to take off taxes which they themselves put on and they expect the present Minister to do it, but let us go back to the situation which the Minister found when he took office last June. He found, in his own words, the bottom of the barrel scraped clean. The position was very different when Deputy MacEntee took over in 1951. He was presented then with approximately £26,000,000 of unspent money— £24,000,000 in Marshall Aid money, plus a further £2,000,000, making a total of approximately £26,000,000.

That was a good nest-egg for him.

That is the situation which Deputy MacEntee found when he became Minister in 1951. When he handed the country over to the present Minister the bottom of the barrel was scraped clean and he comes in now with an amendment asking that the duties be taken off beer which he himself put on. I have heard Deputy MacEntee saying that when he took office he decided to let things rip for the year 1951 and just watch how the year would turn out, but, while he was letting things rip in 1951, he got rid of £24,000,000 before the end of January, 1952, a period of approximately eight months, when the inter-Party Government, during the previous three years, disposed of something like £16,000,000 of Marshall Aid money very carefully. It was not a matter of spending it in eight months—they had a programme and they followed that programme. I mention this point because I find it very difficult to bear with Deputy MacEntee when he talks in this fashion.

The Deputy also mentioned the two-price system, but he forgot that his Government brought the prices up for the poor people and made them pay the same price as the richer people. The inter-Party Government pursued a policy by which they gave increased rations of food—it will be remembered that the people were getting only two ounces of butter when the inter-Party Government took over—at a low price and whatever people required over and above the ration, at the ordinary economic price. These are matters which we must consider when we see Fianna Fáil putting forward an amendment of this nature now. It does not deserve to be supported on this occasion. I am satisfied that this Government will pursue a policy which, in the long run, will lighten the burden of taxation on every section of the community.

What Deputy Rooney has said is not what he and all the others said during the last general election. What they said was that they were going to throw the heavy taxation overboard. The Taoiseach was going to throw the taxation on whiskey over-board—the people were going to consume 80,000,000 half ones more and the Minister for Finance was going to get several hundred thousand more. The excuse of the Minister for Finance now is that he must tax whiskey and beer and cigarettes in order to get the money to pay the half-crown to the old age pensioners, which he says is going to cost £1,000,000. He has already got that from the farmers in the 12/6 reduction in the price of wheat. He got an extra 50 per cent. bonus on the £500,000 they are charging them for bran and pollard, so that between the reduction in the price of wheat and the addition in respect of bran and pollard and the tax on biscuits, he is getting twice as much as the half-crown to the old age pensioners is costing him. When the Leader of the Labour Party——

It is a pity he is not here to give you your answer.

He promised to be here, but he has been conspicuous by his absence. He promised to reply to what I said on the Second Reading of the Bill, but he has never opened his mouth about it. He ran out of the House twice——

He will be here.

——and has sent in the buffoon of the Labour Party to keep interrupting, in order to put people out of their stride.

I do not think the word "buffoon" should be applied to any member of this House.

He will withdraw it, or get out.

Deputy Norton, when talking during the election——

Is "buffoon" a parliamentary expression.

It is not a parliamentary expression.

If it is not, must it not be withdrawn?

Not in all cases. An offensive expression might be withdrawn, but this is an expression which is unparliamentary, but I am not asking the Deputy to withdraw. I am asking Deputy Aiken to desist from repeating it.

At Limerick, on 24th January, 1948——

I take it that is a considered ruling?

Very good. Can the Leas-Cheann Comhairle quote any precedent for it?

At Limerick, on 24th January, 1948, Deputy Norton said——

On a point of order, would the Leas-Cheann Comhairle advise me whether I am in order in asking that the Ceann Comhairle be sent for to inquire whether that ruling is in accordance with precedent or not?

If the Minister disagrees with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's ruling he can take it up with the Ceann Comhairle—not at this stage.

Very good. I want to make it quite clear that I do disagree with it and am taking it up.

At Limerick, on 24th January, 1948, Deputy Norton made a very specific promise to the people. He said that by returning a strong Labour Party the people would have a guarantee that excess profits would be taxed to provide money to subsidise prices and thus reduce the cost of commodities. Speaking at Celbridge in the same month, he said:—

"Nobody has yet been able to explain why £4,500,000 of excess corporation profits tax had been handed back to those whose backs were much more capable of bearing financial burdens than those whose only permitted relaxations were a simple smoke and a glass of stout."

The Tánaiste then indicated, and asked for support for, a policy that would reimpose the excess corporation profits tax, increase old age pensions, increase widows' and orphans' pensions and reduce the tax on smokes, spirits and stout. Why has that not been carried out? There are three members of the Labour Party here at present.

Your Party has deserted you, anyhow.

Deputy O'Leary might cease interrupting.

There is nobody but yourself on the Front Bench.

There are three members of the Labour Party now present. Since this Finance Bill was introduced, not a single one of them has spoken. One gentleman of the Labour Party has come in here and has continuously interrupted with irrelevant interruptions, but not once has a member of the Labour Party risen to his feet——

This is hardly relevant, Sir.

Interruptions are always irrelevant.

——to explain why the Labour Party stands over this Finance Bill, and particularly why it stands over having increased the tax on the national health insurance stamp, without increasing the benefit, as they did from 1948 to 1951, and why they stand to-day over no means test for anybody who is paying income-tax or surtax when he wants to insure himself for medical and hospital expenses.

As I pointed out yesterday, there is no means test once a man becomes an income-tax payer. The State will subsidise him to look after himself, his wife and his family if he insures himself and his wife and family against medical and hospital expenses. However, although they increased the price of the national health stamp, by the postponement of the Health Act they still leave the working man to look after and to pay for his wife and family if they fall ill. This Coalition Government are going to give 7/6 in the £ to the man with £600 or £700 or £6,000 or £7,000 a year in order to insure himself in respect of medical expenses but they have refused to support or to press for the extension of the benefits that were the law and which should have been drawn by the——

Will Deputy Aiken relate this to the amendment?

Deputy Aiken has already spoken on the amendment. I do not see why we should have this sort of stuff.

He has not spoken on the amendment although, in fact, he has spoken already.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Government must know that any person has the right to speak three times on the Committee Stage on any Bill.

He must not repeat what he has already said.

"On" is the word.

The Parliamentary Secretary would like to silence the Opposition on all these questions. The only statements he would like the public to hear are statements made by himself and his friends. However, other arguments will be put forward in spite of the Parliamentary Secretary.

You will have to spread them in "The Truth in the News".

There are some people left in the country yet despite the encouragement which the Parliamentary Secretary gave to emigration when he was discussing the matter of full employment. There are still some people left in the country who will be interested in the discussion of these matters. The Minister for Finance says it is impossible to reduce this tax. The only excuse he gives for not carrying out his promise is that it is impossible to reduce this tax and to increase the old age pension. But the Leader of the Labour Party promised—I gave the quotation this morning—his electors and particularly the publicans that they would reduce the tax on spirits. He made promises before to the effect that they were going to reduce these taxes by reimposing the excess corporation profits tax. When that tax was abolished it was drawing £4,500,000. It was withdrawn because the Labour Party in Britain had withdrawn theirs and it would have been impossible to keep it on here if we wanted to see industrial development continue. People who had money to invest in industry would invest it in Britain under a Labour Government where that tax had been abolished rather than in this country if the tax still obtained here.

That explanation was not accepted by the Leader of the Labour Party at that time. He promised he would reimpose it. If he reimposed that tax to-day it would bring in not merely £4,500,000 but probably £10,500,000. Why is that sum of £10,500,000 not collected in that fashion rather than collecting in on beer, cigarettes and spirits, which the members of the Labour Party promised to reduce? Not only did they promise to reduce the tax on cigarettes, beer and spirits by reimposing the excess corporation profits tax but they said they would not even take a job in the Government unless they were reduced. In Meath, Deputy Dunne said they would not even discuss joining the Government until these taxes were reduced. At the last general election, Deputy Dunne was one of the principal spokesmen of the Labour Party. He went galloping around the country making all the promises on behalf of the Labour Party and the incoming Coalition. He went down to Navan to get Deputy Tully elected.

On Tulyar.

According to a report in the Meath Chronicle of the 15th May, he said that before the Labour Party would participate in a Government with any Party or group of Parties they would insist that the prices of bread, butter, tea, sugar, cigarettes, tobacco and the workers' pint must be reduced and reduced immediately. He said that unless they got agreement on that point they would not participate in the formation of any Government. Did the Labour Party, before they took part in the formation of this Coalition Government now well over 12 months ago, get agreement that these taxes would be reduced and reduced immediately and, if so, why have they not been reduced within 13 months of their taking office? They reduced some of them in 1948, as has been pointed out, within a few days of their taking office. They said that what they did in 1948 they would do again in 1954 if they were re-elected. Deputy Dunne said they would not participate in the formation of a Government—that they would not even discuss it—unless these taxes were reduced immediately. Was that agreement made? There are now two members of the Labour Party left in the House to answer that question.

What did you promise the Independents?

They do not seem inclined to answer it. Deputy Davin, who is now a Parliamentary Secretary, said they would take no jobs in the Government until taxation was reduced and reduced immediately to the 1951 level. Deputy Davin—I have already given the quotation—said it was his opinion that neither Fine Gael not Fianna Fáil would secure an overall majority in the 1954 General Election and that the Labour Party would hold the balance of power.

Hear, hear!

They hold it. He said further that, in that event, the Labour Deputies would not be concerned with securing positions in the Government —a few extra Ministries and Parliamentary Secrétaryships—but would be concerned, rather, with reducing taxation and restoring the cost of living to as near the 1951 figure as possible. We know what they did about restoring the cost of living to the 1951 figure. They sneered at the £1,000,000 we gave to reduce the price of bread by a half-penny and called it the "Half-penny Budget." They kicked loaves all around Dublin in contempt of the reduction. In this Budget, they did not even give a halfpenny and they are taking another £500,000 off flour—off the biscuits and buns.

The Taoiseach, in a very humble fashion, says: "I may not be a mathematician, but I can add up." That is a quotation from a statement made by him on the 7th May, 1954. He added up that this tax which the Government are now proceeding to reimpose would have the effect of decreasing consumption by 80,000,000 half ones, and he said also that would have the effect of reducing the taxes collected by £600,000. If it is going to have that effect, it is not going to contribute very much to the old age pensioners. That money must be got from the farmers, through the decrease in the price of wheat, the increase in the price of offals and the tax on buns and biscuits. There is now only one member of the Labour Party left—the others have disappeared—and there is still no explanation.

They could not stick it.

There is no explanation as to why they are going to increase the taxes on biscuits and buns and reimpose the savage and vengeful taxes on whiskey which the Leader of the Labour Party promised they were going to reduce. The Tánaiste promised he would intervene in the debate and answer this question, but he has not done so. Not a single member of the Labour Party has spoken on this Finance Bill to date on his feet. Is not that remarkable?

They could talk with sense.

The debate has gone on for several days on the Second Reading and on this Committee Stage, but during all this number of hours—although in the past the Labour Party used to monopolise most of the time on the Finance Bill in denouncing the rates of taxation—not a single Labour member stood on his feet to say one word on this Bill. That is a remarkable fact and I think it will be remarked in the country.

On the previous amendment last night, I referred to a calculation which I had made about the ratio between the cost of a pint of beer and a week's wages. I made the same calculation for the cost of whiskey. Before Deputy MacEntee's Budget of 1952 the ratio in the cost of a glass of whiskey and a week's wages of an industrial worker was 1 to 40. Immediately after the Budget it became 1 to 35. I am glad to say that it is back again at 1 to 40, because of the increase in wages last year in particular and in the year before. There is no use in the Opposition getting up here and making long irrelevant speeches, with a sentence or two relating to this amendment.

There has been continuous reference to the promises that were made. When you get down to promises, you find that Deputy Lemass said immediately before the election, at York Street on the Friday night before the election, that no promises were made. In the last six months, however, he has tried in this House to start a compaign that promises were made.

We have sheaves of them here.

There are sheaves of stuff all right, but there is no promise in the whole lot. We know we had a whole lot of rubbish read out of various sorts, but when they have related it all there is no promise of any sort. Each of us individually, when challenged on something he is supposed to have said, has asserted he did not make any such promise at all. Did I make any promise?

Certainly. Read your election address.

Read it out any time. The Deputy should look and see what is in it. The main point really is whether the present Government will reduce taxation or not. The answer to that is twofold—we will reduce taxaation, unlike Fianna Fáil, at the first moment we can; and, secondly, we have stopped the increase in taxation and stopped the increase in expenditure.

What happened the £10,000,000? In actual fact, there are two £10,000,000 now—there is the £10,000,000 of Deputy McGilligan and the £10,000,000 of the Taoiseach—but there is another figure, the £15,000,000 of the Leader of the Opposition, which he is going to talk on, on the Final Stage of this Bill. The Party opposite put up taxation to that extent in the Budget and they proceeded to spend it. Having spent it and raised costs all over the community, they ask us why we do not take it out immediately. Might I say this about this particular amendment, that on the estimates of what happened about beer and spirits there might be some case to be made, owing to the loss of revenue which came about, that this should certainly not have been imposed in 1952? The then Minister was all out in his calculation, but the present Minister, having considered the matter carefully—and he has to take a great deal more than his Budget into consideration—has decided that this tax cannot be remitted this year.

Táim tar éis bheith ag éisteacht anois le h-oráid atá ag iarraidh a chur in a luí orainn, agus a chur in a luí ar an bpobal, nachraibh aon gheallúint tugtha. Tá an Rúnaí Parlaiminte tar éis caint a dhéanamh nár thug sé geallúint do aoine. Tá fhios againn gur thugadar na geallúintí sin. Tá an páipéar lán dóibh, ach tá siad ag gabháil anois ar nós Pilib a' Cleite agus ní bheidh siad réidh leo. All the speeches of the Parliamentary Secretary will not clear that Party over there, or any of the Parties forming the Coalition, of the fact that they did make those promises during the general election.

What did you say?

We made no promises of that kind. We did not believe that these promises were genuine or could be fulfilled and we told the people so—and the people believed us, as far as the constituency I represent is concerned. The promises were made. We give you an opportunity of fulfilling them. We gave you an opportunity last year and on the Finance Bill we give you one now. You can walk into the Lobby and vote for the very things you promised to do.

Deputy Aiken is very much worried about the Labour Party, but he is the cause of all the trouble since 1947, when he brought down the Fianna Fáil Party by the Supplementary Budget. I am speaking as a member of the rank and file of the Labour Party. I said in the constituency that sent me back here, that we would join in an inter-Party Government for the betterment of the people that we represent. We are satisfied that an honest effort has been made by the present Cabinet to do the right thing. Is it not long overdue since 1952? The old age pensioners and the widows and orphans should be the first plank in the policy of any Party, of any Government. We told the people from the Labour Party platforms that we would reduce the price of butter and the price of butter has been reduced. We have granted an increase to the old age pensioners and to widows and orphans.

Deputy Aiken is terribly annoyed that Deputy Norton is not here. I think it is all the better that he is not here, because if he were he would lash the ex-Minister better than I could do it, as he knows his tactics. The only thing the Opposition can do to-day is give quotations from leaflets. They cannot stand on their own feet and make a speech. I have no quotations or leaflets. The people whom I represent know that the Labour Party is honest with them. It was the Labour Party that put Deputy de Valera into power in 1932.

Subsequently, when they pressed Deputy de Valera, then President and head of the Cabinet, to do something for the plain people after he had been a short time in office, what did he do? He ran up to the Park and dissolved the Dáil. He said he could not get on with the Labour Party because the Labour Party was pressing him to do certain things, things which should have been done to help the poorer people and the workers generally. He got into office on false promises at that time. As the years went by, Deputy MacEntee, Minister for Local Government, refused to sanction an increase of 2/- a week for workers in Tipperary; he said 1d. a day was enough. Deputy de Valera said a wage of 45/- a week was enough.

I am satisfied that the Government in which we have the honour of having members is looking after the interests of the people. We have no doubt about that. The Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Corish, who represents the same constituency as I do, and the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, will see to first things first and forget the Party politics and bitterness. It almost looks as if the ex-Ministers in the Fianna Fáil Party think that no one can run the country except Fianna Fáil. Let me quote what they said on their posters. There was one poster with Deputy de Valera pointing a big finger: "Keep the straight road for better times and lower taxes." That is what he had on his poster; but when he was in power he forgot the poor people who had put him into office and that is why Fianna Fáil is out of office now; they let down the people who supported them in 1932.

This is the second occasion upon which we have had an inter-Party Government here. When the first inter-Party Government was elected the first thing that Government did was release the republican prisoners. That was an achievement. I will be before the people in a few days in the local elections. The people will judge us on what we have achieved for the old age pensioners and the widows and the orphans and on the honest effort we have made to try to bring down the cost of living.

The Deputy surely knows he is travelling very far.

I will finish with that, but Deputy Aiken travelled farther in your absence, Sir.

I am not saying he travelled but, supposing he did, that is no reason why the Deputy should follow his example.

The people I represent are not bothering about the price of whiskey. The working man never could buy whiskey even before it was increased in price. All the half ones about which Deputy Aiken was talking, he must have taken a good many of them himself.

It was the Taoiseach spoke about those.

The people who drink our whiskey are the people who come from abroad and the Americans who have the dollars to spend. As far as I am concerned I am not interested in the price of whiskey. I am interested in the price of essential commodities, commodities vital for every one of us especially those who have small incomes. I appeal to ex-Ministers to show more sense than be doing mental somersaults and twisting and turning here like acrobats. They did not have the courage to vote against the Budget.

It is you who should be voting against the Budget.

They come along now trying to make propaganda so that the Irish Press will have headlines. Why did they not vote against the Budget and not be delaying the House now with all this nonsense?

It was the Labour Party who should have voted against the Budget.

I can well understand Deputy O'Leary's annoyance with the Fianna Fáil Party. Deputy O'Leary seems to place great store on the fact that the present Government is in power. I do not think it is a matter of which Government is in power; it is a matter of honesty. If Deputy O'Leary is so simple as to think that the Fianna Fáil Party now in opposition will forget the promises made by the members of the Coalition Government he is mistaken. Deputy O'Leary states he speaks on behalf of the rank and file of the Labour Party and that he is well satisfied with the present position. He is well satisfied to see taxation on the increase; he is well satisfied to see prices increasing; and he is well satisfied that there has been no lowering of the burden of taxation. If Deputy O'Leary had said all that to the electorate in 1954 he would have saved the country a whole lot of trouble and expense. It is somewhat late now to be trying to put that one across.

Do not twist now.

If Deputy O'Leary thinks along the lines he has suggested he thinks, it is apparent to me that the chairman of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union thinks otherwise; he is not at all in agreement with seeing Deputy O'Leary under the oxter of the present Government, being carried around like an old shoe.

That is a better honour than the Government you had in your last three years with your four Independents.

Deputy O'Leary will have to cease interrupting. I warned him before this morning.

Certain statements have been put into Deputy O'Leary's mouth so that he can preach them parrot-like to all and sundry on the eve of the local elections. As I say, the Chairman of the Transport and General Workers' Union does not seem at all happy over the present position and I think he speaks on behalf of the rank and file of the Labour Party. The Irish Transport and General Workers' Union is the largest wing of the Labour Party in this country despite the fact that there are other Unions at the present time trying to oust that body. For what reason I do not know, but I think that the chairman of that union realises the present Government is in a bog of incompetence in relation to prices, to taxes, to the rate of emigration and the cost of living.

Local elections are fought more or less on a political basis but certain spokesmen of the present Government are going around in my constituency and apologising to the electorate that but for the fact that the Fianna Fáil Party has insisted on making this a political election they would not introduce politics at all. That reminds me forcibly of what George Bernard Shaw said one night at a party when he was asked by an admirer at what stage he entered the battle for life. He replied by saying he never entered the battle of life but threw his mother into it. There is no need——

I would like the Deputy to come to the section before the House and the amendment to it.

I am trying to answer Deputy O'Leary.

I would prefer that the Deputy would deal with the section and amendment and leave out George Bernard Shaw.

There is no need for the Fine Gael Party to enter the local elections so long as they have Deputy O'Leary and his wing, so long as they have the present Labour Party, and so long as they have the skeleton of Clann na Poblachta and what is left of Clann na Talmhan.

The local elections do not arise on this.

Whatever excuses they make on foot of their failure to contest the local elections, I think they are going about it in a rather vigorous way, and I suggest that the statements they have been making are only a smoke-screen as usual. Come to the problem of prices, come to the problem of expenditure, or come to the problem of unemployment——

Come to the problem of what is before the House.

——and I think the Government have failed in their quest under any of these headings. I listened to Deputy McGilligan yesterday speaking to the resolution on the Finance Bill and he criticised Fianna Fáil and harked back to the 1952 Budget. He talked about subsidies and taxation and the rate of expenditure that we incurred. I remember that he paid a visit to my constituency on the eve of the general election——

If the Deputy is determined not to deal with the section and the amendment I will have to ask him to resume his seat. He has not spoken one word about the amendment or the section since he rose.

This whiskey tax was in the 1952 Budget.

Everything that was in the 1952 Budget is not necessarily relevant for discussion now.

I am referring to the statement which Deputy McGilligan made in Longford following the operation——

What is before the House now is Section 7 and the amendment moved to it by Deputy Lemass, and that is what must be dealt with.

"Whiskey makes you sick when you are well, and whiskey when you are sick makes you well."

I submit that the duty on beer, whiskey, tobacco and cigarettes is a very pressing problem.

This is a duty on spirits, and if the Deputy would deal with that I would be perfectly satisfied.

Deputy McGilligan came to Longford on the eve of the general election and he called all the housewives to the temperance hall to hear a speech by himself, by the Minister for Defence, who was then Deputy General MacEoin, and by a number of other speakers as to what the Government would do in regard to profits and prices, and he told the housewives of Longford that if they voted for Fine Gael or the other Parties which make up the present Government they would receive a reduction under all headings as regards prices. Not alone has the price of whiskey remained as hitherto but we have a demand from the publicans of Dublin—I presume the demand is in justice—for an increase in the price of whiskey. I wonder what action the Minister for Industry and Commerce will take in order to discharge his duty as a Minister and in order to stand over and honour some at least of the promises he made to the electorate down in Kildare during the general election?

If the publicans of Dublin are seeking an increase, I presume it is not for fun or with undue levity that they do so. They have pointed out that they have to meet demands for wage increases from their staffs. They have pointed out that overhead costs have increased in the last year or 18 months. They have pointed out that rates have increased, taxes in general, and other expenses, and I want to extract, if I can from the Minister for Finance, an undertaking that if and when the Dublin publicans and the publicans in other parts of the country present their demand it will receive at least a fair hearing and that if they are entitled to an increase in respect of spirits or in respect of beer or any other beverage they will get it——

Do you want to increase the price of the pint?

——and that the Government will not cloak the issue and try to side-track it until after the local elections. As a matter of fact the rumour is going around the streets of Dublin now——

That Deputy Carter wants to increase the pint.

——that the Government is considering the matter. The canvassers for the various Parties making up this Government and for Fine Gael are going around telling the publicans of Dublin that after the election the position will be reviewed——

Would you like that to be done?

——when they succeed in securing the votes of the people and if they get a majority on the local authorities, and, of course, the implied threat is there that they will increase the price of whiskey and the price of the poor man's pint——

You are blowing hot and cold now.

The Deputy is a freshman. Deputy Coogan told them he would give more porter to the woman in the bed.

I never did. I made no promises whatsoever.

This amendment has nothing to do with stout or beer; it deals with other matters altogether.

It deals with whiskey and spirits.

Well, seeing that the raw materials for spirits have gone down in price by at least 30 per cent.——

Does it worry you?

——the people for whom Deputy O'Leary claims to speak should, if they are genuine in their desire for reduced prices, seek a reduction in whiskey instead of an increase.

What are you saying?

Seeing that the prices of the raw materials that go to make whiskey have fallen by 30 per cent.

Since when?

Deputy O'Leary and the Labour Party should seek to pass that on to the consumer, if they claim to be a consumers' Party. I think they are falling down badly on the job in that connection.

What about the beer— the raw material?

Yes, the raw material for the beer.

We are not discussing beer.

Deputy Coogan has put a question to me.

The Deputy need not answer it. Deputy Coogan should not put questions. It is quite disorderly.

He has asked me——

It is quite disorderly.

——regarding the price of the raw materials for beer. If the Chair will allow me——

I will not allow the Deputy. It is introducing extraneous matter.

Is it not the same raw material, Sir?

Yes, the same raw material. The same thing applies.

And it has gone down 30 per cent.

Not quite 30.

Yet you want the price increased.

It is as near to 30 as makes no matter.

84/- a barrel up to 1955.

What was it last year?

The Minister is a bit off.

Sorry, Sir. I was having a private conversation with Deputy Walsh. I should not have been.

With regard to the price of the raw material, I will only refer briefly to the statement made by a leading member of the Fine Gael Party and one who for the last 25 years has been Chairman of the Louth County Council. In connection with the price of the raw material that Deputy Coogan is so anxious about——

Coogan, not Cogan—a big difference.

——he had this to say— he is quoted in the Drogheda Independent of the 26th February, 1955:—

"Within the last eight days I arranged mortgages for two respectable farmers and the worst of it was that these men told me had they not voted as they did the present situation would not have arisen."

That is a quotation from Senator McGee, who has long experience in public life.

There is nothing about raw material in that quotation.

It referred to the price of barley and wheat. He went on to say that he did not want to be unfair but he wanted to keep the Government from making fools of themselves. I suggest that the Government are not so much making fools of themselves as trying to make fools of the people. If the Labour Party want to look on serenely at that they are welcome to do so. Senator McGee said:—

"In my opinion they are gone mad. When de Valera said a few a years ago that if the other side ever got into power Ireland was finished, I did not realise it would come about so soon."

No talk of raw materials there.

That is from a member of a committee representing a grain-growing area and, as a man of experience, I am sure he did not make that statement lightly.

The present Government promised to maintain the price structure initiated by Fianna Fáil and that price structure extended to barley. We said all along during the period following the 1952 Budget that food prices were based on farm prices and that any interference with farm prices would have serious consequences for the farmers of this country.

It was very easy, of course, for a mixture of Parties, who were firing at the target and it was a matter of hit or miss. It was very easy for the Labour Party to go to the built-up areas and say: "We stand for lower food prices."

We have farmers in the Labour Party.

It was easier still, on the other hand, for the Fine Gael Party, who claim to represent the farmers, to go to the farmers in the country and say: "We stand for a price-support structure in respect of farm prices."

The Deputy is not dealing at all with the amendment and I think the Deputy knows it. He knows perfectly well that he is not dealing with the amendment. He is endeavouring to make a Budget speech on this amendment. I will not allow it.

A local election speech.

I am dealing with barley.

The Deputy must deal with the amendment. I have given him a good deal of latitude. He is talking about food prices and farm prices. One cannot discuss food prices by simply dragging in the word "barley."

It is food.

I shall not allow the Deputy to get away on that. The Deputy must deal with the amendment before the House.

I am dealing with it.

The Deputy is not dealing with the amendment and, unless he changes his course, I will have to ask him to resume his seat.

The raw material——

The Deputy is not dealing with raw materials.

The Deputy is dealing with food prices.

Barley is a foodstuff, I submit.

If the Deputy thinks he is going to get away with these subterfuges, he is not going to. I warn him now either to deal with the amendment or resume his seat.

I resent the word "subterfuge." I am not trying to get away with subterfuge.

The Deputy will deal with the amendment.

I am trying to deal with the amendment.

The Deputy is not dealing with the amendment.

I was listening to the conversation here all day and I submit that I am not straying from the amendment any more than any speaker.

I am warning the Deputy that he will either deal with the amendment or resume his seat.

I will resume my seat, Sir.

With regard to the tax on whiskey, the Minister for External Affairs, when speaking here earlier, gave a quotation from a statement which he alleged Deputy Lemass made on the 13th May, 1951, but, by stopping short and not reading the quotation in full, the whole context of Deputy Lemass's speech was misconstrued. I would like to read in full what Deputy Lemass said at that time. I am reading from the Sunday Press, 13th May, 1951. What Deputy Lemass did say was:—

"A Coalition Minister had said that Fianna Fáil, if elected, would immediately increase taxes on beer and tobacco. That suggestion seemed to emanate from guilty consciences. Why should any increase in taxes be necessary?"

The Minister for External Affairs stopped there. Deputy Lemass continued and said:—

"The Coalition had presented the Budget for the present financial year before dissolving the Dáil. Mr. McGilligan had claimed that it would yield a small surplus of revenue at the end of the year."

Deputy Lemass continued:—

"If it was an honest Budget based on bona-fide expectations of expenditure and revenue working out as Mr. McGilligan had estimated, then it was clear that no further increases of taxation of any kind were necessary. Why then should Coalition Ministers be forecasting a need for higher taxes? No Government would increase taxation for the fun of it. Did they allege that Mr. McGilligan's Estimates had been phoney?”

It was most unfortunate that, though he was pressed to do so, the Minister for External Affairs did not see fit to read this quotation in full.

The only other matter I want to refer to is the question of the increase in the price of whiskey and beer. I think a statement from the Minister should be made to clarify the position not alone in Dublin but in the City of Limerick where a statement was made by Fine Gael representatives. I have here a statement from a publican in which it is stated: "We have been asked for subscriptions by Fine Gael representatives——"

What is the Deputy quoting from?

This is a statement given to me and if anyone wants it on affidavit I will furnish it. The statement goes on: "——and assured that the price of whiskey and stout will be definitely increased before September 15th." How can anyone make that statement? Personally, I do not believe that the decision has been arrived at by the Government, the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Industry and Commerce that by September 15th the price of whiskey and stout will be allowed to be increased. These canvassers are irresponsible and now that the matter has been brought to the notice of the Minister he should categorically state whether or not a decision has been arrived at. I have no hesitation in saying that I am convinced that this fictitious date of September 15th is picked out solely to induce support for the Fine Gael Party in the coming elections. How long can they continue to mislead these people? I am not going to go into the merits or demerits of increasing or decreasing the price, but I say that apart from the City of Dublin we heard in Limerick City promises that the price of whiskey and stout would be increased before September 15th of this year. I hope that when the Minister is replying he will make a statement on that.

What is the Deputy talking about?

Major de Valera

This is the place to discuss these things. I would ask the Minister, in view of the statements made both inside and outside the House, whether or not the Government intends to increase the price of beer and whiskey in the near future? We could, of course, ask a parliamentary question. That is a simple question and it is the only one I ask.

That question is like asking have you given up beating your wife yet?

Major de Valera

It is a very simple and definite question. If it is as close as September, surely the Government can say whether or not they are going to allow an increase in the price of beer and whiskey by September?

So far the information has not been forthcoming.

I take exception to Deputy Allen speaking because he is a teetotaller.

If the Minister for Social Welfare wants to make a statement as to whether the price of beer and spirits will be allowed to be increased we will be glad to hear it. This amendment is put down to reduce the price of spirits. The people interested tell us that the price of spirits is too high.

Petrol is dear, too.

The people who sell these spirits are representing to all and sundry that they are in straitened circumstances because of the high duty on spirits. That is one of the reasons why this amendment was put down. It is put down to give the Government an opportunity to say if they are prepared to honour their election pledges to their constituents.

The Deputy has the pledge.

No, I do not need a pledge. During the election campaign 12 months ago I heard Deputy O'Leary bemoaning the fact that the next place the decent men in the licensed trade in the town of Enniscorthy would find themselves was the county home, owing to the action of the Fianna Fáil Government.

Owing to Deputy Allen.

There is a different Government there now.

Thank God!

They have a large majority behind them with all the powers the laws of this country can give them. They have full and absolute power to determine by a majority of this House what the rate should be upon any commodity, including spirits. In his wisdom and judgment the Minister for Finance comes along with a Budget and in spite of the fact that the licensed trade were expecting reliefs they got none in that Budget.

Who told the Deputy that?

They got no relief whatever in the price of spirits. There is no doubt but that the tax on spirits is very high. I suppose the Minister for Finance determined before this Budget came off whether or not he could raise any more. That is quite a possibility. As a result of the amendments put down here, the records of this House will show for all time that the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the other small satellite Parties in the Government——

Who is a satellite?

——including the Labour Party, decided that the licensed trade can get no relief in this Budget. You might as well face the facts. One of our objects in putting down the amendments was to force the Coalition Parties——

Just propaganda.

——to vote for the 1952 Budget and the rates of taxation in the 1952 Budget.

It was only for propaganda.

Their votes on these amendments, whether the matter is decided to-day or some other day, will go to prove that the taxation which the Fianna Fáil Government found necessary in the 1947 Supplementary Budget was justified. Within a month of the first Coalition taking office they brought in financial resolutions and removed the taxes put on beer, spirits and tobacco in the Supplementary Budget of 1947.

The Deputy voted against that.

I did not. After three years, when they went out of office, it was found that they left the finances of this country in such a mess— £15,000,000 to £17,000,000 of a deficit— that the Fianna Fáil Government found it necessary to reimpose these taxes.

Would the Deputy come to the amendment?

That is the old story.

The Deputy is discussing general taxation.

I am pointing out——

The Deputy is getting briefed now.

——that these amendments will enable all the Parties in the House to line up as one in supporting the 1952 Budget and the rates of taxation in the 1952 Budget. I am sure the Minister for Finance would have reduced taxation but the he found that those rates of taxation were absolutely necessary in order to pay for the liabilities of the nation in this particular year. It is true, I am sure, even though the Minister for Finance will dispute the amount which the licensed trade in Dublin did subscribe to the Fine Gael funds during the last general election. The Minister has disputed with Deputy Davern that they received £30,000.

They did not get as much as the £50,000 you got.

I have had on several occasions to warn Deputy O'Leary that he must cease interrupting.

The coffers of Fine Gael were, at any rate, bettered by £30,000 before the last general election. The Minister disputes that, but it is agreed that they received substantial support, moral and financial.

And votes?

And also votes and influence. Before the General Election of 1954, a great number of these respectable citizens in the licensed trade in Dublin were telling all their customers that but for the rack-renting and tax-renting Fianna Fáil Government they would be getting their bottle of stout, the pint or a half of whiskey at a price less than they were then paying. The self-same publicans to-day are telling their customers that they are not paying sufficient for the services which they are rendering to them because of what it is costing them to run their licensed premises, to pay their assistants and meet other charges. Consequently, they are asking the Government for permission to increase the price of whiskey and of other spirits.

Would you agree with that?

In effect, they are asking the public to pay more for the services they are giving, for the whiskey they get out of bond and for the bottle of stout which they serve to their customers. There is no doubt, I think, that in time, as a result of the pressure they will put on and of the figures which they will be able to show to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, they probably will succeed in being able to get an increased amount for their spirits, beer and everything else.

During the debate on the 1952 Budget, when there was an outcry from the Deputies who then sat on this side of the House, the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, against the taxes which the then Fianna Fáil Government put on spirits, I remember saying here that the Government of the day have the right to determine the rates of taxation in respect of any commodity. I concede the same right to this Government. They have an absolute right to determine what rates of taxation should be in force on any commodity, and no outside influence has any right to prevent that Government from determining what the rates of taxation should be, but at the same time, if it can be shown by sections of the commercial community that the rates of taxation operating against them are severaly injuring and damaging their interests and preventing them from getting a fair livelihood, I think they are entitled to consideration as an important section of the community. I will admit that no Government have the right to so penalise any section of the community by the rates of taxation which they impose on any commodities which that section of the community may be handling as to put them out of business or seriously damage their interests.

I have no doubt that the Minister for Finance will agree that the present rates of taxation on spirits are injuring the licensed trade. Far be it from me as I have often said in this House to dislike the licensed trade. I have no dislike in the world to them because I believe they are entitled to a livelihood the same as any other section of the community. I do want, however, to refer to the hypocrisy of the present Government and the Leader of the Labour Party in promising the people 12 months ago during the general election that if they had the power to do so they would ease the burden of taxation on the licensed trade. That, however, has not been done under the Budget of this Government and it is not a Fianna Fáil Budget.

Thank God it is not.

This Government, if they wished, could bring the taxation on spirits down by one-third. This is an inter-Party Coalition Budget. There is no use in Deputy O'Leary going down the country any more because he has lost the piece of propaganda which he used effectively in the past.

I hope I will see you some place next Sunday.

The Deputy did not interfere with me in the slightest when he used that kind of propaganda. But at every church gate, where he could see a dozen people gathered, he pointed out to them that the taxation on beer, spirits, tobacco and everything else was because of the fact that a Fianna Fáil Government was in power. We defended at every crossroads the rates of taxation which the Fianna Fáil Government found it necessary to impose and we succeeded so well in defending that——

You lost thousands of votes over it.

We will lose them again whenever we are the Government of this country because when a Fianna Fáil Government decides in its wisdom and judgment that certain rates of taxation are necessary they will impose them, and that is what this Government is doing to-day. The Minister for Finance has been asked a dozen times already this morning to answer the question with a "yes" or "no": whether the Government have decided to allow an increase in the price of beer and spirits in the immediate future. I would love to argue and hear it argued whether there should be any fixed price on beer and spirits. Both are in full supply in the country, and to a certain extent are luxury commodities. They are not an absolute necessity, like bread. It is questionable whether there should be any fixed price on them. Why not let the trade handle them as, for example, farmers are allowed to handle the sale of their produce, and charge such prices for them as the community, who are the best judges, are prepared to pay. That might be the simplest way out of this. Nevertheless, we want this Government to vote against the promises which they made during the last general election. As far as I know, the Ceann Comhairle has not the right under the Constitution to impeach a Government for not carrying out the promises it had made during the election campaign.

If that right were there a Fianna Fáil Government would not at any time have lasted very long.

The Chair can assure the Deputy that the Ceann Comhairle has no desire for any such power.

I think there should be some redress for the people when they elect a Government on the promises which the members of it had made during the election and failed to carry out. I suggest that these promises should be fully implemented. I want to put that forward as a suggestion which the Government should consider.

That is not an amendment to this amendment?

No, but I am looking for some means of ensuring that when promises are made to the people and when the people vote on the strength of those promises that they will be fulfilled. I think that should be insisted on if we are to have any honesty in public life at all.

Vote early and vote often.

This is 1955 and I suggest that the ordinary people of the community are entitled to expect at least honesty from their public representatives. When political parties seek the people's support for their policy put forward at a general election, they should honour the guarantees they gave when they become the Government of this country and have the power to do so. This Government are not honouring the promise they made to reduce the price of spirits. In all honesty and decency the Minister for Finance should answer the questions that have been asked: Have the Government decided to allow the price of beer and spirits to be increased when the local elections are over or in the immediate future? Or, are they prepared to grant any concessions to the licensed trade? Is the Minister satisfied that the licensed trade is carrying an undue burden?

I think those are fair questions. The Minister has ways and means of finding out what the revenue is and what is the general income of the licensed trade. If he believes there is an undue burden because of this taxation, it is only right and fair that he should honour the promises made by himself and his colleagues 12 months ago when they were seeking the suffrages of the people and when Deputy Norton, the Leader of the Labour Party, was sending a special circular, signed William Norton, T.D., a prospective candidate for Kildare, and asking for the support of the licensed trade in County Kildare, so that he might come to Dáil Éireann with a mandate from the people of Kildare and ask on behalf of the licensed trade in Kildare to have the duties on beer and spirits reduced.

Deputy Norton, I see, is absent. He may have good reason for being absent to-day, but his colleague, Deputy O'Leary, has sat here since 10.30 this morning and if he had been briefed by Deputy Norton, we would be delighted to see Deputy O'Leary stand up and say on behalf of Deputy Norton: "We give this undertaking. We will not remain in this Government more than a week—or a month, as the case may be —unless they reduce the taxation on spirits."

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 43; Níl, 52.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl, Deputies Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll.
Amendment declared lost.

Before we take amendment No. 10, might I mention a reference Deputy Lemass made when he and I had a discussion on the earlier amendment? I have a copy of the Official Report here and I shall send it across to him. It says: "It seems now that promises were given since the election. Prior to the Budget the Minister received representations...". et cetera. That was the statement I was referring to and I think, to give him his due, that was not what Deputy Lemass intended to say.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 10:—

Before Section 7 to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The duty of customs imposed by Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1932 (No. 20 of 1932), shall in respect of tobacco imported on or after the 1st day of July, 1955, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part I of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.

(2) The duty of excise imposed by Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934; (No. 31 of 1934), shall, be charged, the 1st day of July, 1955, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part II of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.

(3) Sub-sections (3) to (5) of Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934, shall apply to tobacco which is chargeable with the duty of excise imposed by sub-section (1) of the section at a rate specified in Part II of the Fourth Schedule to this Act and for the purpose of such application references in the said sub-section (3) to (5) of the said Section 19 to Part I of the Sixth Schedule to the said Finance Act, 1934, shall be construced and have effect as references to Part II of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.

(4) The rebate on hard-pressed tobacco mentioned in sub-section (2) of Section 17 of the Finance Act, 1940 (No. 14 of 1940), shall, in respect of any such tobacco sold and sent out for use within the State by any licensed manufacturer on or after the 1st day of July, 1955, be at the rate of 2/8 per lb.

(5) For the purpose of this section, importation shall be deemed to take place at the time when the entry of the relevant goods under the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, is delivered.

As the Government did not accept the motions to reduce the duties on beer and spirits, I do not suppose they will be very enthusiastic about reducing the duties on tobacco, so I think we can let this go to a vote without any further discussion.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 51.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Leary, Johnny.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McGilligan, Patrick
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl, Deputies Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 7 agreed to.
Sections 8 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That Section 12, stand part of the Bill."

I sent the Minister notice of a question I proposed to ask to-day in connection with this section and I think the Minister has had some difficulty in understanding exactly what I was asking about. I may say that I have had equal difficulty in trying to understand Section 12. The question I have to put to the Minister is (a) does Section 12 affect the estate duty payable on the death of the insured on policies of £10,000 or over, where a whole life policy under the provisions of the Married Women's Property Act, 1882, has already been taken out by a father on his own life for the absolute benefit of his children who are minors, irrespective of whether they be living or not, on the happening of the event when the sum insured comes payable and where a bank, trustees for the minors, the children, was appointed and named on the face of the policy when originally taken out prior to the introduction of this Bill and (b) does the Bill conceal that it curtails, in effect, the rights and privileges given to women and children under the Married Women's Property Act, 1882?

It is a rather technical matter, I suppose, and what I really wish the Minister to answer is: does the section in any way endanger the persons who are beneficiaries? This is not a case of a trustee arrangement; it is an out and out settlement. The father of the family takes out a policy in the names of certain beneficiaries, but does not act as a trustee. A bank or other independent person may be appointed as trustees for the beneficiaries. What I want to know is, does this in any way suggest that where large sums are involved, and where these transactions have been brought about, in the ultimate interpretation of Section 12 the sums that would accrue would in any way be calculated as part of the estate for estate duty?

Of which estate?

Of the father's estate. In other words, are these hitherto undisturbed beneficiaries now to be interfered with by this section? I understand the Minister's attitude about my question. I suppose it is so peculiarly written that it is difficult for him and his officers to try and interpret it. Perhaps he will interpret for me Section 12 or answer the question as to the fears I have suggested.

On the section. I should like to suggest that the Minister might consider bringing in a certain modification of Section 12. As I understand the section, its effect will be that all policies of insurance will be aggregated together with the general estate of the deceased and the appropriate rate of duty will be applicable and will be borne by the beneficiaries of such policies.

In Britain last year I understand a similar section was proposed and that it was somewhat modified in Committee. I suggest that we could easily follow the British example in this regard. The policy which was adopted was I think, what was referred to as a "ringed fence policy." It was suggested and, in fact, carried that all policies of insurance would be aggregated in respect of each individual beneficiary and, as it were, a ringed fence would be put around that particular beneficiary and the appropriate rate of duty applicable on those policies would be paid by him. If the deceased left various policies of insurance to various beneficiaries then each of these beneficiaries would have, as it were, a ringed fence put around the particular estate to which he or she was entitled under the various policies of insurance.

I suggest the Minister might consider giving some relief to the family beneficiaries of a deceased person. I think it is generally agreed that savings by insurance policies is a desirable method of saving to be encouraged. As this section stands, it may have some deterring effect on such savings: it may not be very great but, on the other hand, it might. I also think that the necessity for this section is probably not as great as it was in Britain and that the loss to the Exchequer by reason of amending this section slightly would not be very great. I would ask the Minister to consider reducing somewhat the burden of this section by allowing all policies in respect of one beneficiary to be treated separately from the general estate.

I will deal first with the point made by Deputy Costello. The position in Britain is exactly as he has suggested but I think that what is suitable for them, with their rather larger and wider implications, would not necessarily be, and in fact is not, suitable for us with our much smaller ambit here.

Another point that arose was that in Britain the insurance companies themselves took voluntary steps to curb the evasion of duty. It may have been because there was such an arrangement in existence between the life officers concerned across the water that they adopted a slightly different method. I am afraid that we are smaller here and that the effect would be quite substantial on our revenue if it were dealt with in the way in which Deputy Costello has suggested. I may say that I examined this matter with some care before I decided on the type of method I would use to stop the evasion. I am afraid, therefore, I could not alter the section of the Bill.

Deputy Briscoe raised two points. He was courteous enough to give me notice of them. I am afraid I found a little difficulty in understanding his questions just as I found a little difficulty in understanding the point he has put to-day. Perhaps I might meet the situation by explaining very briefly what the section does mean and then the Deputy can consider it.

Under the Married Women's Property Act, if a husband pays money for the benefit of a wife or child there is a presumption in law that he intended it to be a gift and that it was not intended in any way as a sum which should be repaid. Exactly the same effect can be achieved if anybody gives it to somebody other than a wife or child—I am not talking now at all of insurance policies but of any property—but, in that respect, they must execute a deed of gift or there is a presumption of it. This section does not in any way change the general law in relation to the Married Women's Property Act or the ordinary deed of gift. There is no change whatsoever.

So far as the second part of Deputy Briscoe's question is concerned the answer is clearly "No." That portion of his query I quite understand. There is no change whatsoever in the general law by which a husband providing funds for a wife or child is deemed to have given them as a gift and they cannot go into the husband's free estate. What this section does, however, deal with is an entirely different position. If a person takes out a policy on his own life but not in favour of himself —in favour of someone else—then, on his death, because he has no interest in the policy, the policy is not treated as part of his free estate. The policy moneys that arise on his death, and in respect of which he has no interest, are treated as an estate by themselves and being treated as an estate by themselves means that the property that is an estate by itself is considered only for the purpose of deciding on the rate of estate duty that is payable in respect of that property. The Deputy is probably aware that rates of estate duty vary according to the total value of an estate that comes for assessment. Therefore, if a person leaves a bigger estate he pays a higher rate of duty.

A policy in respect of which the deceased person had no interest is not aggregated with the other free estate of the deceased for the determination of the rate. If, for example, a person had free estate valued £10,000 and took out a policy in favour of his wife for £10,000—a whole life policy on his own life—then, when he died, the estate duty would be assessed on his free estate at the rate applicable to £10,000 and on the insurance policy as a separate estate valued for £10,000— not on £20,000 applicable to the whole. That is the case of a single policy. This section does not change the position at all in respect of a single policy. What was inclined to happen was this. People were taking out, not a single policy for £10,000 but ten policies of £1,000 each, separate documents. The total premium was exactly the same, but the ten policies each for £1,000 were not liable for duty at the rate applicable to £10,000. Each of them had to be considered as an estate in itself and there were ten separate estates, each ranking for consideration at the duty rate of £1,000. What we provide for in this section is that if a man takes out ten separate policies now, that will be treated exactly the same as if he took out one for the £10,000.

There is another provision, that where a person takes out whole life policies on his own life and in which he has no interest at the date of his death, they will be all taken together as one separate estate. He will not be able legally to avoid liability by splitting up his policy into small denominations in order that they may be under the limit in respect of which estate duty is not charged at all.

I quite follow the case made as far as it concerns an individual who may become a beneficiary in this way. What happens, however, to a father who leaves a policy to his wife and two separate policies for his two children? Does the Minister mean what he said, that notwithstanding the beneficiaries being different people the aggregate of all of the policies will be treated as one?

That is a new departure.

Oh yes, it is a new departure.

And it will affect the provisions made under the 1882 Act?

The Minister is trying to correct an abuse that has grown up as a result of avoidance of taxation generally, whether in this case or in others. I am trying to put it to the Minister that, in trying to correct that abuse, he should not hurt individuals who are beneficiaries as a result of an honest effort and where the question of evasion is not the uppermost thought. An individual may have taken out ten policies each for £1,000. I could not understand just the sense of an individual taking out ten separate policies in that way.

That is why he did it.

That is to say, one individual would be inheriting ten different sums amounting to £10,000, if they were £1,000 each and therefore the duty would be payable on that. What I am asking the Minister to avoid is inflicting hardship in a case where a parent leaves seven children and makes provision for each one separately. They are separate entities. The Minister is going to add them together and combine the total of all those seven beneficiaries. They are all going to pay at the rate as if they had inherited seven times what was in fact made available for them. I think that is unfair.

Each would be paying only one-seventh of the total.

If the seven amounts are added together, it becomes seven times the amount of each one individually.

It alters the rate at which the duty would be assessed, but presumably the beneficiaries would each be liable to pay only on his separate share.

Yes, but if each pays on his own at the rate appropriate to the amount he receives, there is no quarrel with that.

If he left seven farms?

He would not leave seven farms. I am talking about a case where he has made provision, as the Minister pointed out, by absolute gift, not something that he was in possession of at the moment he died. I am talking of what he parted himself from years before his own departure. Assume that a man leaves six children and a widow and by this method of insurance policy they each become the possessors of £10,000. At present each of them would pay the inheritance duty applicable to the £10,000. What the Minister is doing now is that the seven amounts will be added together and each of them will pay, on his own £10,000, the rate as if he had become possessed of seven times the amount, £70,000—which is, of course, a much higher rate. That is the point I am questioning and that is what I think is not reasonable.

I do not think it is fair, because as people grow older and as children grow up they may become married and have their own families and their own commitments, separate from each other. Yet you are going to bulk them together in this case for the purpose of taking from each of them the surplus or increase over and above that which they would have to pay on the other basis. I think the Minister ought to consider this particular item again. This is going to cause hardship in many cases and it is going to be unfair. I do not think it should be dealt with in the way the Minister proposes now and I would like to hear him suggest something further in the matter.

In fact, it transpires now that what Deputy Briscoe is saying in a more involved way is what Deputy Declan Costello was saying previously. Deputy Briscoe surely is not going to ask me to agree with him that a person who has £70,000 worth of life insurance, split up between seven different people in the way suggested, is a person to whom we should try to make concessions? I suggest that the very case the Deputy took showed clearly that this was an evasion—a legal evasion, I agree, but an evasion by the big type of person. Deputy MacEntee will undoubtedly bear out for Deputy Briscoe, if he has any doubt about it, that the sum of £70,000 here in Ireland is indeed a very large slice of the average estate that would be left. Deputy Briscoe may not appreciate that up to £2,000 there will be no liability at all.

What was happening was that people were taking out enormous numbers of these policies for the purpose of legally —perfectly legally—avoiding payment of any death duties in respect of those policies, on the money they left in that way at their death. I do not think that is a situation which any member of the House could stand over, having regard to the fact that other people, with their own small free estates of £5,000 and £6,000, were made liable to pay. I do not think it would be reasonable at all. It would create a very anomalous position if a person with a free estate of £5,000 were liable for the payment of duty in an easier way as compared with the person who had an estate consisting of life policies amongst his family, as Deputy Briscoe suggested. I think the whole effect of doing what Deputy Briscoe suggests would be to assist the large man and penalise the small man.

I am afraid the Minister does not follow me. I am not trying to argue in favour of the person who is endeavouring to save something from the State for his family by purely evasive measures. There is another person to be considered other than the evasive gentleman; there is the individual who does not possess a very large amount of liquid anything. He is a provident man and he decides that in the course of his lifetime he will not be able to accumulate or amass a fortune to bequeath to his next-of-kin and he decides out of his income to take out policies for the benefit of his wife and his children if he dies.

Does not that type of individual in 99 cases out of 100 take out an endowment policy?

We have reached the stage now, and I am sure the Minister knows this, where one can only go to a certain limit in endowment policies. The rate is much higher than that for the ordinary straight life policy, and the premiums in relation to the amount that will ultimately accrue are also considerable. If an individual takes out an endowment policy he takes it out for himself. As a young man of 20 or 30 years of age he deems it prudent to take out an endowment policy which will mature when he is 65 and he will have this lump sum, with or without profits.

When he is retiring or wants to settle his children.

For whatever purpose he wants it. That policy is part of his own estate and has not been deeded by him irrevocably to anybody else. I am talking about the person who cannot see any possibility of making adequate provision out of endowment policies or other assets and who decides that he will take out a policy in his son's or his daughter's name; he pays out of his earnings so much every month and, in the event of his death, that son or daughter will be provided for. Now, I am not saying that he should not pay the estate duty appropriate, but I am objecting to the Minister coming to the House now and saying: "Hitherto the individual who inherited that amount of money paid the appropriate estate duty; now, if that child has a brother or sister, or four or five brothers and sisters, and they are all treated in the same way by the deceased parent, the total amount will be added and each beneficiary will have to pay on the result of that addition." I think that is unfair, and I am asking the Minister not to proceed along that particular line.

Is not the case the Deputy makes perfectly obvious on the Deputy's own case? The individual decides how much he can afford to pay out of his income in insurance premiums. We will say he can afford to pay £100 a year.

I did not mention any figure.

No, but I am taking that figure for the sake of argument. He decides how much he can afford to pay and, having decided, is he not only breaking it up into certain entities for the sole purpose of evasion? If it is £100 a year he will break it up into five policies of £20 premium each purely for the purpose of avoiding duty.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider this. I know how anxious Ministers for Finance, despite their general public reputation, are that the incidence of taxation, or the brunt of liability, should fall upon every person with a certain degree of equity. Therefore, when there is a man, perhaps a little bit more intelligent and better advised than his fellows, who can find a way out of the net—I confess quite frankly that I myself liked to get after that fellow in the same way as a greyhound, I suppose, likes to get after a hare or a gamekeeper after a poacher. But we have got to guard ourselves against that and we have got to have some consideration for the taxpayer.

I think this net is cast far too wide because it may catch some people whom the Minister does not intend to catch and with whom the Minister would actually have a great deal of sympathy. I will not say whether or not he intends to catch them, but take the case of a husband who is depending on a son to carry on his business and to provide for other members of the family after his death. Take the case of a man who marries a second time, perhaps with a fairly long interval between the death of his first wife and his remarriage: he may have a young family by the second marriage and it may be that he will intend to put the onus of carrying on the business and making provision for these young dependents upon his eldest son by his first marriage. He may do that by insuring his own life and making full and adequate provision by the payment of a heavy premium. But supposing he decides that the son will carry on and he decides to insure him for a substantial sum carrying a reasonably small premium.

There is a case in which an insurance is taken out and the property passes after death. The policy had been taken out by the father in the son's name, but the son could not benefit by his own death. He was not paying the premium. He had absolutely to right or title to the policy. The policy had been taken out by the father. That may have been a long-sighted policy but there are prudent people who like to provide even against fairly remote contingencies. That would not necessarily be an evasion. The father would decide that the business would do very well if the boy was there to carry on after the father's death; but the boy may not be there to carry on. The boy may predecease him. The husband ensures that if anything happens to him his wife, the boy's stepmother, will have at least so much either to employ a manager competent to carry on the business or have a capital sum from which she can derive some income. That is a case which might arise under this section and I appeal to the Minister to consider the matter from that aspect.

I think the Deputy misunderstands it.

I have read it only as a layman.

I appreciate that. Is the Deputy talking about a case where a person takes out a single policy?

He is. That is all he said.

I said a policy, but the Attorney-General was talking about pluralities. Do not let us assume that a special case excludes the general. Do not let us assume that when I have talked of a policy I have not gone on and added a few more words and said: "a policy or policies." But what applies to one policy more particularly would apply to——

No, it does not. That is the whole effect of the section.

But there may be separate policies. After all, we do know that by negotiation you can get better terms from one company than another. You may still be taking a policy out with the first company and then, when you think you have got all you can get out of them, you start negotiating with another company and in this way a good business man, an intelligent business man, a person who knows how to make the best of his opportunities will naturally try to get the best value he can. He may divide his policies, or he may be in this position, that when he takes out the first policy he can only set aside so much to pay premiums on that policy. His business improves——

Are we talking about five policies on the same life?

His business improves and he is able to insure a greater sum. He is able at least to set aside a greater sum to pay premiums and he takes out another policy.

On the same life?

Yes. But there is nothing here to state that the aggregation must be on a certain policy on one or more life. As I remember the section—and I may be wrong—all it says is:—

"...where the property which passes on a death, but in which the deceased never had an interest, includes any policies of assurance on his life..."

Not on their lives but on his life.

"...or moneys received under such a policy, or interests in such a policy or moneys, all the policies, moneys and interests so included (except any in respect of which estate duty neither is payable on the death nor would be if the duty were payable on estates of however small a principal value) shall, for determining the rate of estate duty to be payable thereon, be aggregated so as to form one estate, and the duty shall be levied at the proper graduated rate on the principal value thereof."

May I ask the Deputy a question?

Yes. The Attorney-General is used to asking questions.

Are you asking if a man takes out five policies on a son's life that those five policies should not be aggregated for duties on his estate?

I am, yes.

That is not the case Deputy Briscoe made.

This is a section which can be criticised from different points of view and I am criticising it from the point of view of the fact that while it is desirable to stop evasion, if it is widespread, we must at the same time have regard to human circumstances and to certain principles and that on the whole I think the public interest is not served when dealing severely or too rigorously with cases such as I have mentioned. That is the only point I am making. As I say, perhaps if I had been over there and the matter had been put up to me I might have been bringing this in. I do not think I would. I have very often turned things down on the ground that taking them by and large the general public interest of the community would not be served.

So far as I heard, the Minister has based his case for this section entirely on the ground that there are people who have large fortunes, great incomes, and who, because they want to protect those after their death, have availed themselves of this method which has been perfectly legitimate up to now, and he wants to ensure that estate duties will not be evaded. In that connection, we must remember that when the estate duties were first introduced they were levied at a comparatively low figure and rates of taxation were not oppressive and not exorbitant. But now we have passed that line and, in my opinion, they are.

You objected to them being low.

Whatever I did, I am not taking the Attorney-General's word for that.

Oh, you did.

The Attorney-General might say his colleagues were aware of what he was going to broadcast on a certain night and he might afterwards come in and say he said nothing of the sort. Therefore, the Attorney-General will forgive me if I am somewhat sceptical.

You criticised the lowering of levies on small estates and you talked about——

I want again to put it to the Minister for Finance that he ought not dig his heels in in relation to this and that he ought to review it. No person will regard this as a major concession or a defeat or anything like that if the Minister does review it. I think it is worth looking into and I would suggest that on the Report Stage or, perhaps, even in the other House, he may have second thoughts about this section.

There are two things bothering me——

And one of them is Deputy MacEntee, and his last argument.

No, not even the Attorney-General. One of them is this: there is a retrospective measure attaching to this position; you are going back over a period of years and people who have not yet died are being caught by this provision.

If they have died it will not be worrying them.

No, but the beneficiaries, those who will inherit and become the possessors of the property are affected. That is one point, and I think to make this retrospective is, in itself, bad.

But is not all estate duty dealt with in the same way?

I am afraid the Deputy does not follow me: the Minister does.

I understand the point the Deputy is making but I think it is a bad point.

I think it is a bad thing to do this because if the person who had made the provision—as people have made in the past—could have anticipated this kind of an amendment to the legislation they might have been able to think out some other way of dealing with the provision. There is nothing to be funny about there. They might have said to their children: "I am giving you so much money per week. You can yourself put it away or you can take out your own policy." That is what I mean. It is not always the mean side of it that the Attorney-General jumps to that is considered.

It is the give-away you have made yourself that I am laughing about.

I have given nothing away. This is a matter about which I have some concern. I am concerned about individuals who are provident but are not seeking to create new tactics for evasion purposes. I am thinking of individuals who have wives and children for whom they cannot, out of their own earnings or out of their businesses make what they consider adequate provision.

But you talked about taking out seven policies on the one life a short time ago—that is no badly-off man.

Progress reported.
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