Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Nov 1955

Vol. 153 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—National Gallery.

General Mulcahy

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery, including a Grant-in-Aid.

The Supplementary Estimate is presented to rectify a matter relating to the Appropriation Accounts for the financial year 1952-53 when a sum of £1,000 was charged to the Vote for that year. Contracts were made by the Director of the National Gallery before the 31st March, 1953, with three local printing firms for the supply of postcard reproductions of certain paintings. The matter was raised before the Committee of Public Accounts and the Committee in its report dated 30th March, 1955, on the Appropriation Accounts for the financial year 1952-53, recommended that the Charge be disallowed as the accounts had not matured for payment. It is purely an adjustment for accounting purposes. The postcards were delivered and paid for but the payment was made in the wrong year.

Mr. Derrig

I think this has been a very useful and valuable development and I feel sure Deputies have been interested to know of the number of masterpieces in the National Gallery that have been reproduced in postcard form. I should like to ask the Minister whether these cards are for sale in the ordinary commercial way through the shops. One notices in the shops at present a lack of cards of Irish manufacture. Perhaps there is a very good reason for that and it is no harm to remind the public that these postcards can at this time of the year take the place of the ordinary Christmas cards.

Mr. D. Costello

I do not think anybody will have any objection to this Supplementary Estimate. It is not generally appreciated, I think, that at present we have one of the finest art galleries in the world, for a city the size of Dublin. The tragedy is that the masterpieces and treasures which we have have not received sufficient publicity. For that reason, even though it is belated, we must welcome this effort on behalf of the gallery to take some steps to publicise its masterpieces by means of postcards. There are two points which I should like to raise. Firstly, I would ask the Minister to suggest to the directors of the gallery to provide, as soon as possible, a catalogue of the works of art in their possession.

It is a strange thing that for a gallery of its size, situated in our capital city, it is not possible for visitors to purchase a catalogue of the works of art contained in it. I am now asking the Minister to have the matter remedied as soon as possible. The other matter is the desirability of getting some of the works of art in the gallery sent on loan to country towns. I do not think it is right that all the masterpieces should be permanently kept in Dublin; they are the property of the people of the whole country, and certainly in off-times in the gallery, when the tourist season is not at its height, some of the masterpieces should be sent on loan to the provincial towns.

Mr. Briscoe

I should like to voice a word of congratulation that this development has finally taken place. I remember when this was first considered by Deputy Moylan when he was Minister for Education. There was a great deal of difficulty in getting the financial side to understand the necessity of such a small investment. We waited a long time before the first complete set was available and I think, as some Deputies have said, if it were made better known to the public that a complete set of these postcards is now available many people would take the whole collection, not merely for sending but for keeping for themselves. There are some other works of art that will also be publicised in the same way as these have been; they could be made available in postcard fashion and they would serve to keep the reproduction costs at a low level.

Dr. Esmonde

I should like to support Deputy Costello on the point that some of these masterpieces in the gallery should be sent down the country on loan to allow rural people to see them. Such a development would be of great educational benefit to the people living in the country towns, since it is not possible for a lot of people to come to Dublin. There are one or two other points which I should like to bring up and I hope I am in order in bringing them up here. It does not seem to me that the National College of Art is adequate for the country's needs. I think it is not as up-to-date—

An Ceann Comhairle

This Estimate is for the National Gallery.

Dr. Esmonde

Am I out of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

This Estimate is for the National Gallery as the Deputy will find out if he looks at the White Paper.

Dr. Esmonde

I do not know if I am in order in bringing up my second point——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no harm in trying.

General Mulcahy

Have a shot.

Dr. Esmonde

A number of people in and around the City of Dublin who want to hold exhibitions have a certain amount of difficulty in getting a hall. We have here the Hibernian Academy with a certain amount of funds at its disposal. Would it not be possible for the Minister's Department to interest themselves in trying to make a hall available in the neighbourhood of the city so that people who desire to have an exhibition could get a hall? I understand that certain people who have tried to hold exhibitions have experienced considerable difficulty in getting such a hall in the city.

Mr. O'Malley

While supporting Deputy Declan Costello in everything he has said, I should like to point out to the Minister that no real attempt is being made to make the people throughout the country art conscious. I think that in his dual capacity the Minister should realise that there is no encouragement whatever given in the majority of schools in the matter of making our people art conscious. Accordingly, it seems to me that this development is putting the cart before the horse. Art would seem to be the premier subject in only two schools and I think it is about time we faced up to the fact that this country should have in its school curriculum, particularly where it concerns children of over ten years of age, the proviso that art should be a major subject.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may get an opportunity of airing these views on some other Estimate.

Mr. A. Barry

I think the Minister should indicate to the directors of the gallery that they should contact the publishers of these cards with a view to having their circulation enormously increased and so reducing the price of the individual card.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. O'Donovan)

It seems to me that this discussion has gone completely off the lines. This is purely a Vote to regularise a payment not made in the ordinary way.

Mr. A. Barry

It is our only chance to discuss such matters.

Mr. O'Donovan

The purpose of the Supplementary Estimate is purely to cover with the authority of this House a payment which should not have been made in the particular year when it was. The payment was not made in accordance with the ordinary rules and regulations which govern such matters.

Mr. Allen

We all know that.

Mr. O'Donovan

That is no reason why there should be a discussion about a whole lot of other matters.

Mr. McQuillan

That is for the Ceann Comhairle to decide, not the Deputy.

Mr. O'Donovan

Certainly, but it is no harm to bring the House back on line. It should discuss the Supplementary Estimate and this is no place to discuss these other matters.

Mr. Allen

It is no place for a school teacher either.

Mr. O'Donovan

It is no harm to remind the House of what is happening. A time there was when the Committee of Public Accounts was a much more important body than it is. It is no harm that we, including Deputy Allen, should remember what that point is.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary should stick to the point at issue.

Mr. O'Donovan

I would have, Sir, if I had not been interrupted.

Mr. Allen

He is trying to make himself more silly than he is.

Mr. O'Donovan

I do know that it would be quite possible for any Department to do something in this fashion on the last day of the financial year. I think that is the whole and sole reason why the Supplementary Estimate is before the House.

Mr. Briscoe

How is the Committee of Public Accounts less important to-day than it was?

An Ceann Comhairle

Now, Deputy!

Mr. Briscoe

That is what the Parliamentary Secretary said.

Mr. O'Donovan

I said there is certainly a trend in the Committee of Public Accounts in relation to the manner in which the business is conducted.

Mr. A. Barry

I must object to that.

Mr. Briscoe

So must I. Did the Parliamentary Secretary ever serve on the Committee of Public Accounts?

Mr. O'Donovan

I am speaking about the manner in which the Committee of Public Accounts works and where it brings the House to a realisation——

Mr. Briscoe

Showing it is as important as ever it was.

Mr. O'Donovan

It is an example of the manner in which it works. I still stick to my opinion that it is a great pity the Committee of Public Accounts is not as effective in recent times as it was 20 or 25 years ago.

Mr. McQuillan

Why did the Parliamentary Secretary not speak on Deputy Sheldon's motion then?

Mr. Briscoe

Did the Parliamentary Secretary ever serve on the Committee of Public Accounts?

General Mulchay

I hope nobody will think that the Committee had a real find in this matter. It is just a small technical point that is being dealt with and that is that.

With regard to Deputy Derrig's query, the number of pictures reproduced as coloured postcards is 38. Sixteen pictures have been reproduced in sepia in postcard form. Most of the pictures in sepia are historical portraits. I appreciate the suggestions made by Deputies in regard to the general sphere of the National Gallery. Deputies will be afforded another opportunity of discussion in greater detail when the Estimate is presented to the House later in the year.

While I am appreciating Deputy O'Malley's point with regard to works that could be done for schools, I should like to say that there is an arrangement by which pictures can be lent by the National Gallery to other institutions throughout the country. While it may be a bit silly to put the cart before the horse—if you have a cart—it is no harm to put it somewhere.

Mr. Briscoe

You must have a horse also.

General Mulcahy

I think Limerick has pictures on loan from the National Gallery.

Mr. O'Malley

We have three.

General Mulcahy

If they have room on their walls for more, there are more available to be put there. I think something more could be done to make it more generally known that these postcards are available. I think they are on sale, in some of the shops, at any rate. I think, perhaps, it could be made more generally known that it is possible, under suitable circumstances, and when the matter is looked into, to have pictures lent from the National Gallery.

Mr. O'Malley

Are they copyright?

General Mulcahy

The postcards? I could not say.

Mr. A. Barry

They are copyright.

General Mulcahy

They probably are copyright.

Mr. O'Malley

Would a commercial firm be facilitated in getting a copyright of a picture in the National Gallery for its own personal benefit?

General Mulcahy

Straight off, I do not know whether they would or not. I think if we had more up-to-date firms embarking on that particular line, I would not like to place any serious obstacles in their way. I should like to give a more thought-out answer to that question.

Mr. D. Costello

What about the question of the catalogue?

General Mulcahy

The question of the catalogue has been under very serious and anxious consideration for some time past. I think the Deputy can take it that anything I can do to see that a suitable catalogue is prepared at the earliest possible moment will be done. I know the matter has been very much under consideration. I will go further into the matter and see what can be done.

Mr. Derrig

Might I ask the Minister whether he would consider the possibility of having the reproductions on a larger scale than the postcard size? Might it be possible to reproduce the pictures in the size of an ordinary commercial poster or half that size, and these could then be sent out to schools?

General Mulcahy

I could have that matter examined. If it were possible to have that done, I should like to have it done. At the moment, I do not know whether we are equipped to do that.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.