Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Feb 1956

Vol. 154 No. 4

Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Sections 6 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Mr. Walsh

I move amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (1), lines 9 and 10, to delete "(of whom not less than four shall be members of the standing committee of the club)" and substitute the following:—

"(of whom not more than three shall be members of the executive committee of the club and of whom two shall have an interest in the breeding of greyhounds or in coursing or greyhound racing, and of whom one shall be a representative of the licensed bookmakers)."

The Bill states that, of the six appointed to the board by the Minister, four of them will be taken from the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. Our amendment is to the effect that, of the six taken from the general body on to the board, not more than three will be members of the Irish Coursing Club. The others then will be left at the discretion of the Minister, as well as an independent chairman.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that amendments Nos. 3 and 4 may be discussed together?

Mr. Walsh

I think so.

Mrs. O'Carroll

I have no objection. There is a slight difference. Are they being taken together?

An Ceann Comhairle

They are being discussed together, but separate decisions can be taken, if the House so desires.

Mr. Walsh

On Second Reading, I mentioned that this board, comprised of four members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club, would not be a suitable board. I mentioned that, having regard to the report submitted to the Minister by the commission dealing with coursing and track racing generally, it appeared to me that these people who now comprise the standing committee would not be suitable people to have a majority on the board. They have been placed in the dock and have been found guilty of not being able to control their own affairs. The Minister's intention in this Bill is to put them back into office, although he admitted that there were cases of malpractice, of neglect of duty covering greyhound racing, sales of dogs, and so forth. If the section inserted by the Minister were accepted by the House, it would mean that we were legislating for these people and condoning all that has been wrong, or that is believed to have been wrong, in the past by reappointing them to take complete control of greyhound racing.

The industry deserves better than that. If there is to be a board to control the industry, the most that these people would be entitled to would be three of the six. The Labour amendment states more specifically than our amendment that the other three members could be selected from breeders, bookmakers and any other parties. It would be very wrong to agree that the four members of the standing committee should be appointed in that way. I know that the representatives of the standing committee were very anxious that they should get a majority. I have had discussions with them on one or two occasions. It was one of their very strong points that they should have four of the seven who would be appointed to the board. That is tantamount to giving them complete control again. Having regard to the condemnation by the commission set up to investigate the greyhound industry generally, I do not believe that that should be the case.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

Perhaps I had better say a word on Deputy Ormonde's amendment, as moved by Deputy Walsh, in order to clarify the position. We covered most of this ground in the course of our discussion yesterday.

Mr. Briscoe

Oh, no. We did not. The Minister did.

Mr. Walsh

We did not.

Mr. Briscoe

We were perfectly in order on this side yesterday.

Mr. Dillon

I am not querying anything. I am merely seeking to explain to Deputies that the considerations envisaged yesterday largely apply to the issue joined here. I want to point out to Deputy Walsh that, while it is true that the report substantially found that many matters required reform, the historical reason for that is just as well known to Deputy Walsh as it is to me.

The executive of the Irish Coursing Club was originally established in 1916 to deal with relatively simple matters arising out of the administration of coursing matches in rural Ireland, breeding and the keeping of the stud book associated with that sport. There then arose, about 1920, an entirely new set of circumstances, arising out of greyhound racing and, in reference to the control of that new and, at the time, relatively trivial branch of the sport, there was a complete vacuum; there was no control board and the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, I think rather reluctantly, consented to undertake control of it. Nobody foreseeing at that time the magnitude of the problem that would arise in the administration of such an industry as greyhound racing, the plain truth is they never had adequate powers to deal with it.

Mrs. O'Carroll

They took the powers.

Mr. Dillon

They tried to adapt the constitution they had to the entirely new circumstances created by greyhound racing. Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll feels that they took the powers, but the problem was that they had not power to take powers adequate to deal with so powerful and influential a vested interest as greyhound racing became, and it is because adequate powers are wanted that this Bill is before the House. If the Irish Coursing Club were functioning satisfactorily and had the power to do what required to be done and had the sanction of the authority of the Oireachtas to enforce the regulations that were necessary, the necessity for this Bill would never have arisen.

I have emphasised repeatedly in the House that I am not looking for power for myself, or any successor in the office of Minister for Agriculture, to run the greyhound racing industry. What I am trying to do is get an agreed measure which will give a board truly representative of the whole industry effective power to run the industry right. If they do not use it, there is nothing we can do about it. I am not going to run the greyhound industry; they have got to run it themselves; and what I am asking Oireachtas Éireann to do is to give them the power to run it.

Why go on pouring contumely on a body of perfectly decent men and making observations suggesting that these men were in the dock. That is not true. The situation that grew out of the circumstances in which these men found themselves was under inquiry and was found to be unsatisfactory under the same historical background. I should like to say that I do not see how any 21 men could do better than they did. They had not the power necessary to control the very powerful vested interests which, it is suggested, they should have controlled.

Mrs. O'Carroll

Would the Minister define "vested interests"?

Mr. A. Barry

Greyhound racing.

Mrs. O'Carroll

Which aspect of it?

Mr. A. Barry

The tracks.

Mrs. O'Carroll

Or the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. Dillon

When you have a body of men dealing with small coursing clubs throughout the country, the members of which have friends and acquaintances on the Irish Coursing Club, it is a very simple thing to control the sport. The rules required are very few, easily enforced; but when an organisation is set up to do that limited job and finds itself suddenly called upon to enforce a whole code of rules against a great industry such as the greyhound industry became, I know they were not able to do the job. If I had thought they were, I would not have troubled the Oireachtas with this Bill. Deputy Walsh has said he agreed he had in contemplation a Bill of this kind because he found that the powers requisite to deal with the greyhound industry as it is now——

Mr. Walsh

Not as it is now.

Mr. Dillon

——to deal with the industry as it is now were far different from the powers appropriate for the control of the industry——

Mr. Walsh

That is very questionable.

Mr. Dillon

That is my reading of the situation. This whole issue boils down to this: is Oireachtas Éireann going to establish a different principle in relation to the greyhound industry to control that industry from that which it established when it passed legislation setting up the Racing Board?

Mrs. O'Carroll

Two different types of industry.

Mr. Dillon

When the Horse Racing Board was established, the Turf Club and the National Hunt Club of that day said: "We require a majority on this Racing Board." The Turf Club and the National Hunt Club never submitted any of their members for election by anybody. They are a self-perpetuating body who co-operate with whomever they like. The Oireachtas gave them that authority.

Mr. McGrath

We heard all this last night.

Mr. Dillon

That is exactly what I am saying. I am going over the same ground on which Deputy Briscoe rebuked me. The Oireachtas gave them that authority. Now we have a board here, the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, with the following names: B. Rahill, P.J. Henehan, T. Aherne, J.D. Bruton—the Lord have mercy on him—J.M.Collins, J.P. Frost, P.P. Coffey, C. Murphy, Rev. W. Dowling, P.P., Rev. E. O'Flanagan, P.P., M.J. Mulhall, James Clarke, P.J. Cox.

Mrs. O'Carroll

The Minister left out one name, that of Arthur Morris.

Mr. Dillon

And I am asked to say I will not give these people exactly the same authority as Oireachtas Eireann thought it proper in an earlier measure to give to the horse racing people.

Mr. Walsh

No, no.

Mr. Dillon

These are my findings, and the people whose names I have read out are eminently respected citizens of this country who have every right to every respect, but they are not my kind of people. I have, however, got what I expected from my kind of people. They have said: "We agree that even though he will choose four of us from the original 21, we think we should go to election in a democratic way and if we are not elected in that way, off we go."

Mrs. O'Carroll

So the Minister has discussed this with these people already?

Mr. Dillon

Of course I have.

Mr. Briscoe

With the Irish Coursing Club people?

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but is there anything wrong in this? These people have said they are not making the claim to authority that the Racing Board people made—the claim that the Turf Club and the National Hunt Committee made. My kind of people said: "All we ask for is that the executive of the Irish Coursing Club have four out of seven, but we agree that a condition of that is that all the candidates will submit themselves to election at the hands of the coursing clubs and the tracks of the several provinces, and, if we are not elected in that way, we will cease to be members of the board."

Mr. S. Collins

They still have a perpetuity of four

Mr. Dillon

And should they not have, if they are elected members of the industry by the industry? If they are elected in a democratic way in the several provinces in fair proportion to the number of clubs and tracks in the provinces, should they not have that right?

Mr. S. Collins

The Minister is not then giving this Oireachtas the right to take its own views as to whether the practice is right or wrong.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to put on our own people the public slight of saying that you cannot get, out of that list I have read out, four honest men, whereas the Oireachtas was willing to bind itself to give the authority to the Turf Club and the National Hunt Club.

Mrs. O'Carroll

On a point of order, nobody has suggested that these men are not honourable men.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a point of fact; not a point of order.

Mr. Dillon

All I am asking the Oireachtas to say is that in the first choice of the list of persons I have read out, it is my duty to find four honest men. That is all, with the additional reservation that they must be not only four honest men, but four representative men. Even though they be men of the highest integrity, if, when they go to their clubs and tracks for election, they do not get elected, they cease to be members of the board. Is that an unreasonable requisition to make? The requisition is that I shall be constrained to choose four honest and representative persons to go on this Racing Board. That is all, and I do urgently and strongly press on my colleagues here that I should not be asked to sponsor the proposition that what we previously unanimously conceded to the Racing Board, at the instance of the then Minister for Finance, now President of the State, we would withhold from these people for no better reason than that they are our kind of people and that the others were not. Is there any Deputy in this House who will say deliberately that it is impossible, out of that 21, to find four honest men?

Mr. S. Collins

That is not the issue.

Mr. Dillon

Of course, it is that, out of that list, I should be allowed to pick four honest members within two and a half years who would submit themselves for election. That is the whole issue.

Mr. McGrath

I am afraid that the Minister does not know anything at all about this business.

Mr. Briscoe

He knows an awful lot that he does not pretend to know.

Mr. McGrath

I said the Irish Coursing Club had enough power. Is not the whole cause of all the trouble that they had too much power?

Mr. Walsh

Hear, hear!

Mr. McGrath

Are we all not very well aware of the fact that the register of litters contained the names of dogs that were never bred when greyhound racing started in England 30 years ago? Pedigrees were given to dogs and nobody knew where these dogs were born. Everybody is well aware that dogs without pedigrees were bought and sold across channel with pedigrees that had been dug up for them. Many people bought dogs for £1 or 30/-, and had pedigrees found for these dogs. Surely the Minister does not think we are all fools. That has been going on all the time, and, as far as I can see, the Minister does not know anything about it. People that were opposed to the Irish Coursing Club at that time eventually became members of the Irish Coursing Club themselves and everything was all right for them, but I happened to be chairman of the Cork Greyhound Racing Association for a good while before the Minister became interested in greyhounds and I know a lot of difficulties arose and a lot of things were done simply because the Irish Coursing Club had too much power.

Mrs. O'Carroll

There have been a lot of repetitious speeches on this Bill and all of them on the same lines. I believe it is on Section 9 that the whole success or failure of this Bill depends, that is the section dealing with the constitution of the new control board for the greyhound industry. I shall not go over the ground covered by the Opposition or by the Minister, except to take up two points in the Minister's speech. He said that his main anxiety—and I do not doubt it—was that the board would be truly representative and I am afraid he is relying on his own omniscience in the selection of the men and feels that he himself will be able to select four people from the 21.

As the section stands it seems even more dangerous. It states:—

"Of whom not less than four shall be members of the standing committee of the club."

But if that section were left unchanged, we could reach the stage where the whole six would be composed of the Irish Coursing Club. That is one reason why we have put down this amendment, (a) to ensure that at no time would it be possible for them to have full control of the Racing Board and (b) to diminish the amount of power being given to them by the Minister under Section 9, as it now stands.

I could not agree more with the Minister that these names which he mentioned as members of the standing committee are all decent, honourable people. I know most of them individually, but, individually and collectively, you could not find a better body of men, from the point of view of honesty and integrity. I am putting it to the Minister like this: over the years these men have had many other interests and because of that although they are the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club and entrusted with running the affairs of the Irish Coursing Club, although they are the responsible body, they were not able to give the attention and interest to the day-to-day administration of Irish Coursing Club affairs that was required, and for that reason, as time went on, all the responsibility and all the powers were gradually centred in Clonmel. I am not satisfied that, if the board is constituted in accordance with the proposals the Minister has outlined, that power will not still be left in Clonmel. That is the danger as I see it.

While much credit must go to the people in Clonmel who originally gave the infant industry the necessary support, encouragement and organisation, at the risk of being platitudinous I would say: "All power corrupts and great power corrupts greatly," because the Irish Coursing Club standing committee, through the Clonmel control, has certainly corrupted the greyhound industry and certainly did not act in the interests of the small dog owners and small breeders. Things became so bad a few years ago that the Greyhound Owners' Association was formed to counteract the influence exerted by Clonmel. The association tried to issue its own newspaper to refute the Clonmel people, but unfortunately the association consisted of only the small "doggy" men to whom the greyhound industry was a sport and a means of making extra money. Unfortunately, the Clonmel people had more money and more power, and a more powerful paper, and the greyhound owners, as such, had to fade out of existence.

I understood this commission was set up to go into the whole question of the dog business, with a view to putting this very important and potential export industry on a very firm and sound basis. That, I think, was the intention of the Minister. That was the intention of the committee investigating and it is also what we all hoped would emerge in this Bill, as a result of that report. If Section 9 is amended as I suggest it should be in my amendment, I could almost say every other section of the Bill would then go through possibly without any bother, because it all hinges on the reconstitution of that board on proper lines.

I would ask the Minister to consider this, that, having regard to the fact that since that report was issued some time has elapsed, and it was only after the lapse of time the Bill was given its present form, but the committee of the Irish Coursing Club, or Clonmel controlling interest—for want of a better term—was well aware of the recommendations contained in that report and also well aware that the Bill would be based on that report. Yet, in spite of that, instead of pulling up its socks and turning up its sleeves and getting down at that stage to trying to do something decent for the industry, no such action was taken. It appears they did not consider doing that; they had no ideas; they were lax and did not care what form the vote would take; they felt their power was not going to be touched.

I wonder if the Minister knows that there was some months ago a demand for greyhounds for Italy from this country. Any body controlling an association which would get a demand like that and which would have the interests of its members at heart would immediately circularise dog owners and coursing interests in the country and tell them that there was a demand in the Italian market for Irish greyhounds and so give these men a chance to make more money. That did not happen, although this report was issued and the Bill was in the process of being drafted. Instead, the Clonmel section went around the country and bought up the dogs themselves at not very high prices, took them to Italy themselves and sold them at very enhanced prices. I ask the Minister, in view of that instance which is indisputable, does he still believe that he will be able to pick four honourable men who will control the industry in the best interests of the industry?

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy know the end of the Italian transaction?

Mrs. O'Carroll

I know that two lots of greyhounds went to Italy.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy know if they were ever paid for?

Mrs. O'Carroll

Surely the Minister is not going to quibble with me over that?

Mr. Dillon

That is a very important part of the transaction.

Mrs. O'Carroll

I am quite certain, if they were not paid for, that these people were well compensated for their losses. I am quite certain they did not lose anything.

Mr. Dillon

I am merely asking the Deputy a question.

Mrs. O'Carroll

And I am asking the Minister, in view of the practice indulged in when the small dog owners, breeders and members of coursing clubs were not informed that such a chance was going——

Mr. Dillon

Maybe they were very lucky.

Mrs. O'Carroll

That could be. But that does not get away from the principle involved. I would again ask the Minister to accept our amendment which is possibly a little more drastic than Deputy Ormonde's. We ask that not more than two shall be members of the standing committee and that the remaining four shall consist of two prominent breeders, one bookmaker and one greyhound track representative. I want to ensure that the club members will not have control. I think the two prominent breeders or owners should also be on that board. It might not be possible to get them from a representative body, but I am quite certain that the minutes or records of the old greyhound association are available and if these were given to the Minister, he could then use his omniscience to select names from them.

I think also the bookmakers are entitled to representation on that board. They give a good deal of employment and employ assistants who depend for their living on that employment. They do a lot of indirect bookkeeping for the Government and they are entitled to have their interests safeguarded. I am not satisfied that the Minister could honestly feel that he would have any truly representative board without having all sections of the industry on it. As a matter of fact I am only sorry that we cannot provide representation on that board for the punters, but I know that that is impossible. We must not give control to the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club and we must include on that board bookmakers, dog breeders, trainers and such.

The Minister has talked about the rules used by the Irish Coursing Club over the years. I am sure the Minister has the rule book before him and, if he has not, I have it here. There are about 155 of these rules, but there was no one ever to enforce them, except the people in Clonmel. The rule book did not matter; whatever suited the people in Clonmel was what mattered. All sorts of rules were broken from time to time to suit Clonmel.

I am quite convinced that, unless the Minister changes the representation on the board and reduces the majority given to the Irish Coursing Club, the status quo will be maintained. The trouble with these State or semi-State bodies is that, when a Bill goes through this House, they can be managed or mismanaged, and we cannot even ask a question in this House about them. I would ask the Minister to consider this amendment with a view to accepting it.

Mr. S. Collins

I do not accept for a moment that the issue raised in this amendment is whether or not it is possible to get four honest men from a list of 21 men. I can see that it is quite possible to get a far more extensive number than four from that list, but the issue is a simple one. It is whether or not the House considers that the control of this new greyhound industry board should be granted in perpetuity to the Irish Coursing Club. That is the issue and not the personality or integrity of the individuals. I am approaching the question in that way.

I am not going to argue that a very strong case cannot be made by the Minister that the control should be in the Irish Coursing Club, but I am going to ask the Minister if he can adduce any argument to convince me that, on the merits of the Irish Coursing Club, that body should be given control in perpetuity of the industry. I am acknowledging without question that every one of these 21 men is an honourable man and properly elected to this body, but the Minister himself has admitted that there are four substantial interests connected with this industry. He himself has said that these four interests consist of the coursing club, the racetrack owners, the breeders and the bookmakers. I am putting the rhetorical question to the Minister, why, on this small board, he chooses not to give representation to one of those four primarily interested bodies?

Mr. Dillon

Which body?

Mr. S. Collins

The bookmakers.

Mr. Dillon

There is nothing in the Bill to prevent me giving them representation.

Mr. S. Collins

Why does not the Minister give me an assurance here that they will get representation?

Mr. Dillon

They would have got that assurance, if they had not acted up the way they did.

Mr. S. Collins

I am not interested in the way they acted up.

Mr. Dillon

Neither am I, but even though they acted improperly, I have no reason to dissent from Deputy Collins' proposition that interests such as the bookmakers' should have representation on the board, on the same principle as representation was conceded to them on the Racing Board. But for their acting up as they have been doing, that could have been said sooner.

Mr. S. Collins

I take it that the Minister has some very cogent reasons to adduce as to why control in perpetuity should be vested in the Irish Coursing Club. If he has, I have not yet heard them. I want to say this. The Minister is drawing the parallel that, some number of years ago, when the Racing Board was set up, a certain practice was established. I am not going into a discussion on the question of who are the nominal members of the Turf Club or of the National Hunt Club, but I am going to say this, that were I in the House then, there would not have been unanimity in giving control in perpetuity to such a body.

My approach to it is this: if there is a case that can be made why control in perpetuity should be given over to a body that has already proved itself unsatisfactory in the running of its own affairs, I will accept that without question, but my view is that the control board in this whole instance is too numerically low altogether. Seven is a very small number. Of necessity, a quorum for a meeting of that board will be substantially smaller. I am going to approach this question completely differently from the way in which both Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party approach it, because my belief is that, if you can get willing co-operation between the people who will ultimately be concerned in the fruitful functioning of this industry, you will have an impetus that will give it a reasonable prospect of success. I feel that, if you are going to start off by virtually irretrievably hampering these other interests, you will start a board, the motto of which will be: "Do as I say", and not "Do as I do".

These amendments and the section they purport to amend are the real kernel of the whole Bill. The Minister comes in here, and, with his command of language, purports to put a certain point of view. In emphatic support of that, he has, to my mind, stood on a premise which is completely untenable, because the issue in this section is not in any way connected with individual members of any lists. The issue involved in the section is purely one of determining where the control in perpetuity is going to be under the new board to be set up to control the greyhound industry.

Let the Minister not think that I am against him on the issue as to who the controller might ultimately be, but I want to get the issue clear first before arguing it. The Bill lays down that not less than four will be members of the Irish Coursing Club. Let me be frank. I do not envisage the difficulties which my colleague, Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll, envisages, that ultimately the number might be six, with an independent chairman, but I do envisage that it would be quite within the competence of this small, omnipotent, controlling body to manipulate meetings and everything else in connection with the board to suit the convenience of the majority. That might often lead to the exercise of anything but fair judgment in relation to certain problems.

I would urge upon the Minister not to accept these amendments but to get down to the real purpose, aided by the views drawn from the common pool of our genuine interest, and do something that will, in the ultimate analysis, be effective and good. This is something that between now and the Report Stage of the Bill could be approached in a far less acrimonious and more practical way. My own personal feeling on this section, dealing with the matter in globo, is that the design of the board is too small and that, in the ultimate analysis, the quorum required to constitute it as an authoritative body will be too small and that we are narrowing the thing down too much to a totalitarian control.

The Racing Board has a larger number, if the Minister wants to draw analogies. It has an infinitely less number of meetings, engagements and everything else under its control. We know the value of the horse-breeding industry to this country and we know the number of race meetings. Has the Minister and his Department got down to the question of equating the matter of coursing and dog racing fixtures vis-á-vis racing? How is it that a Bill can envisage an infinitely smaller body than the Racing Board to exercise control over this widely dispersed form of sport?

This is a problem worth resolving in a cool, calm, reasoned atmosphere. I do not know whether the Minister is very keen on dog racing or coursing, or whether he has attended any of these meetings, but looking at the industry in a straightforward manner, on the basis of the number of dog tracks, coursing fixtures, open coursing fixtures and the various types of fixtures within the control of this new board, it would appear to me that it would require, if anything, a bigger board to try to manage the affairs of dog racing and the greyhound industry generally than to look after horse racing.

It was said in argument that the Irish Coursing Club up to now had not the powers to enforce certain things. Let me disillusion the Minister to this extent. Even if this Bill is passed, as the Minister sees it now, you are ultimately going to find yourselves with this Bill law and many of the powers that would be necessary for the enforcement of decisions will still not be there.

We are all aware of what happened once the Reilly-Conyngham Club case was decided on the horse racing side of the industry. The resolution of certain problems was shelved. Nobody has been sufficiently courageous in the greyhound section to try something on a similar line, so that I will put this point of view to the Minister. There are wide fields that neither himself nor his advisers have cottoned on to at all within the concept of this industry. Now is the time, before we pass control over to a board, to make sure that we are passing it over in a way that will be fair to the various sections that make their living therefrom.

Finally, if there is some cogent reason other than a bad precedent of the Racing Board with its perpetuity of control for the Turf Club and National Hunt Club and if there is something that compels the Minister irretrievably to plump for control of this body to lie in the Irish Coursing Club, I should be very glad to hear it and to support the Minister, if that reason carries conviction, but I think the Minister could, no matter how truant he may have thought some elements to be, at this stage of the discussion, give us a fair and frank indication of the interests he will have represented on the board, as well as the Irish Coursing Club. If he did that, a lot of the discussion might evaporate.

Mr. Briscoe

We are discussing amendments Nos. 3 and 4 together. Deputy Walsh pointed out that, while we moved amendment No. 3, amendment No. 4 by the Labour Party is, in fact, more explicit. If the Minister indicated that he was prepared to accept the Labour amendment, I am sure there would be no great disagreement between us then. But the Minister has not given any indication other than that he proposes to stand rigidly for the section as it appears in the Bill.

Yesterday, the Minister admitted quite frankly that there were at least four distinct interests and, when asked to tell us what these four interests were, he gave them to us. Now, at least three of these interests, to take it mildly, should be equal to the interest of the Irish Coursing Club. Obviously, the Minister would not have introduced the Bill with the section as it is if he either did not believe or wanted us to believe that he believed that the interest of the Irish Coursing Club on its own was far greater than all the other three interests put together. I disagree with that point of view. From the historical aspect, as outlined, it is true that subsequent to the establishment here of a separate, controlled body for coursing, greyhound racing in the ordinary greyhound racetrack developed and has now in my opinion become, from the point of view of value as an interest, if not equal to then certainly not less as an interest to the nation than coursing itself.

The Minister talked about the difficulty of exercising powers by the Irish Coursing Club. The Irish Coursing Club, as Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll has pointed out, has been using its powers very extensively. The greyhound racing tracks in this country are under licence to the Irish Coursing Club. There are many groups who wanted to license a new greyhound track but could not because of the rules of the Irish Coursing Club and their authority to decide whether they could or could not and if, in fact, they did open up, they would not be very successful. So much for that.

The Minister says he wants this board to be truly representative of the whole industry. These are his words. I am saying to the Minister that if he adds up the industry, by taking each of the four interests separately, he will find that the Irish Coursing Club certainly does not qualify for four-sixths or, in fact, for two-thirds of the control of the whole representative industry of the nation. The Minister, I think, has not briefed himself very well when he uses the argument that he is basing this on what Deputy Collins rightly pointed out was a bad precedent. I agree with the proposition that Deputy Collins has put to the House. We are not at this moment in our discussion reflecting whatsoever on the membership of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. Dillon

Tell Deputy MacEntee that.

Mr. Briscoe

I am talking about our discussion here. However, the Minister is putting the qualifications and the integrity of these people to the test and wants to make that the issue.

Mr. Fagan

And rightly so. They were elected by all the coursing clubs in Ireland.

Mr. MacEntee

They are not. If the Deputy will read the report of the advisory committee——

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Fagan can make his own speech whenever he feels like it. The issue here is a principle. When the Minister reads out 21 names, can he give us a guarantee that if there are changes in election to the standing committee, he will still call them his type of people? How does he know what the future will produce? Surely the industry as a whole and all the interests concerned are entitled to a guarantee, in legislation we pass here, that a monopoly situation in relation to any one group is not to be perpetuated?

He talked about the Racing Board. If the Minister had said: "There is the ordinary coursing side of this. If you like, add to it, the breeding, and so forth, but there is also the greyhound track side. Added to that, if you like, there is the bookmaking side of it": if there were two groups, as there are in the horse racing, and if he had said: "Let the other interest set up a body of their own. Let them elect a standing committee and, from the two standing committees of the two distinct groups, we will have a Racing Board", I could understand him. But, throughout, this savours very much of the circular that the Irish Coursing Club sent out and in this circular, which was produced by this body and sent to members of this House, amongst others, are some of the following extracts. It states:—

"It is untrue to say that the Greyhound Industry Bill was introduced against the wishes of the Irish Coursing Club. The Irish Coursing Club, in fact, took the initiative."

Now, they say this—and when this comes from them, we must have some regard to it:—

"The Irish Coursing Club has a certain legal status and legal rights and it is extremely doubtful if even Dáil Éireann can ride rough-shod over them."

This is what they say to us—the people to whom the Minister wants to give control for the benefit of everybody concerned. It—the Irish Coursing Club—is resigned to having some of the authority transferred to a new body, but the Irish Coursing Club is constitutionally entitled to a voice in setting the limits of transfer of authority. Surely to goodness, if that is their approach to it, we might as well say: "Leave things as they are. They have the authority and they are only submitting to the transfer of certain limited bits of their authority to this board, but they are indicating that they are retaining the authority and, no matter what Dáil Éireann does, it does not concern them."

May I also point out to the Minister that, in his own explanatory memorandum which he sent to members of Dáil Éireann with the Bill—this is his own explanatory note, such as accompanies most Bills—we read:—

"The provision in Section 9 that four of the seven members of the board should be appointed by the Minister from among the members of the standing/executive committee of the club was not recommended by the advisory committee,..."

—was not recommended—

"—but is analogous to the provision in the 1945 Act that six of the 11 members of the Racing Board for horses should be members of the Irish Turf Club...."

I think everybody who has spoken on this matter has exploded that particular approach sky-high. It does not arise; it is not relevant. Even if the Minister himself wants to examine what he said yesterday, he will find he is flogging a horse in this race that he is not prepared to ride. He ridiculed this group yesterday. They are not his type—"not my type of people". These 21 are on the Irish Coursing Club, but, nevertheless, it suits him to try and bring it in here as if anybody would accept it. He goes on then to explain all about the transitional period; that does not arise here. Now the Minister has heard Deputy S. Collins from his own side of the House. He has heard Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll speaking on behalf of the Labour Party. He has heard us on this side of the House. He has heard a majority opinion of the House on this section. He has been talking about the truly democratic body he wants to see emerge: let him at least behave in this House in a truly democratic manner.

We are speaking here with one voice, those of us who are concerned about this Section 9. If the Minister wants this Bill to be a success from the point of view of leaving this House as an Act which will help the industry in time to come, he will have to indicate here acceptance of one or other of these amendments, preferably of the amendment tabled by the Labour Party. Deputy S. Collins says he does not believe either of these amendments is the answer to the problem and he would like to hear some suggestion emerge on the Fourth Stage. I was hoping that Deputy S. Collins would give us an idea as to what better suggestion he could make other than either of these two amendments.

Mr. S. Collins

I will do so later.

Mr. Briscoe

If the Deputy would indicate it now, it might help.

Mr. MacEntee

Why not shed his wisdom now?

Mr. Briscoe

There might be even more unanimity. The Deputy agrees, as we all do, that Section 9, as drafted, is not the proper way to approach this matter.

Mr. S. Collins

I think the board is far too small.

Mr. Briscoe

That may be another way of approaching the matter, but we are all agreed that, whatever the size of the board, there shall not be a monopoly for one particular section over all the rest. When we were considering this amendment, we thought of all these things, and I believe we have some amendments in relation to some of the points raised here by Deputy S. Collins as to the number which shall constitute a quorum, the arrangements for meetings and so forth. That was something that struck everybody.

It is suggested here that refusal to accept the control of the Irish Coursing Club over this new body is a reflection on the individuals who constitute the standing committee. May I point out to the Minister what the Irish Coursing Club thought about their critics? I do not know whether the Irish Coursing Club wants protection in this Bill, but I do know they want protection against something which was touched on by Deputy Collins; if they warn somebody off, they want to be free, as far as they are concerned, from any possible legal action subsequently. They say in their circular that they were "aggrieved because the proceedings of the advisory committee were held in camera. The Irish Coursing Club representatives were asked to attend a second time, and there is hardly a single page of the report that does not reflect in some way on the club and its members." That is the advisory committee which the Minister set up and in relation to which he selected the personnel to examine into this matter; that is the committee which produced these reflections on the Irish Coursing Club and its members. What is most extraordinary is that some of the most outspoken members of the Irish Coursing Club themselves "were at one time warned off or suspended under the rules of the Irish Coursing Club."

Mr. MacEntee

For what purpose? Warned off because they criticised the standing committee.

Mr. Briscoe

They say you must not accept their evidence against us because we warned them off, and they do not say why they were warned off. Here is the body to whom we are supposed to give absolute control now of a most valuable industry, affecting the livelihoods of a great many people, apart altogether from its value to the nation. These are the people who convict themselves by admitting publicly that the advisory committee set up by the Minister found them guilty of certain misconduct; and they say that there is hardly a page in the report that does not reflect in some way on the club and its members.

Are we to take it that the Minister set up this advisory committee to throw mud at the Irish Coursing Club and its members, or are we to take it that the members of this advisory committee did their work honestly and produced a factual report, to which they now take exception? And notwithstanding this report of the advisory committee, the Minister says now, as Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll said: "Clonmel has had control and Clonmel will continue to have control." I wonder will the Minister see reason.

Mr. S. Collins

I would like the Deputy to develop that. How is Clonmel to have control and keep control? I want to be convinced of that.

Mr. Briscoe

I said Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll said that Clonmel has control at the moment and that it will continue to have control. Perhaps Deputy Collins might consult Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll. I am only quoting what she said.

Mr. S. Collins

I only want to be convinced by somebody that that is so.

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy has stated that he does not want a majority of the Irish Coursing Club controlling the board to be set up under this Bill.

Mr. S. Collins

I did not say that. I said I wanted to be convinced of some reason as to why they should have a majority in perpetuity.

Mr. Briscoe

I see. We are trying to give the reasons why they should not have a majority. We are not approaching this in a negative manner. We are approaching it in a positive manner. The Deputy is now stepping out from the railway lines he followed when he was speaking and he is now taking a negative attitude.

Mr. S. Collins

No. I never stepped out.

Mr. Briscoe

But the Deputy is stepping out now.

Mr. S. Collins

Deputy Briscoe had better read my speech.

Mr. Briscoe

I have heard the Deputy's speech—it is quite clear in my mind—and I was paying due credit to the Deputy for the line he took. Now it is coming to the time when we must decide the issue and we will have to go into the division lobbies, and the Deputy is taking the line that the Minister has not proved home that this is necessary. The Minister has tried to prove to the best of his ability that this is necessary. He has used every possible argument to substantiate his case, but none of his arguments has impressed itself on those of us who hold a different view. The Deputy is asking for something which is impossible. Perhaps it might satisfy him in his subsequent decision on this issue.

Does the Minister not now realise that there is some substance in what has been said to him in support of these amendments? Or does he consider what has been said as of no significance and not worth being considered by him in any event? I can tell him that, if he agrees to recognise the overall position, as he calls it, and if he wants to make this Bill and the board truly representative of the whole industry, he must accept the point of view we are expressing.

There is no use in the Minister wasting the time of the House or wasting the pages of our verbatim reports by reading out again for the fourth time, having read it out twice yesterday, the list of the names of the present standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. They are not in issue. It is the overall, long-term position that is in issue. The Minister cannot guarantee that, if there are 21 strictly honest men on this standing committee to-day, there will not be 21 different ones at some future date. Let us make provision in legislation that there is a protection beyond, if you like, the elected period of people in office or even the lifetime of an individual. I consequently, at this stage, say I am not at all impressed with a single remark made by the Minister in defence of the wording of the Bill as it stands in Section 9. We will have to hear a great deal more to make us change from the attitude we have adopted.

There are four interests. The Minister mentioned them last night. Has the Minister—as he has indicated a minute ago, I think, in what I thought was a personal conversation between himself and Deputy Collins and which he repeated to us here—now admitted that there must be a position on this board for a representative of the Bookmakers' Association? Is he admitting that or is this particular interest to be left always at the outside of the door coming with their hats in their hands to ask this board with its majority of four Irish Coursing Club members if they can have this, that or the other? I hope—I do not see any of the representatives here now—that the Labour Deputies will press their amendment to a division.

Mr. Dillon

I want to deal, if I may, with the specific point made by Deputy Briscoe. It is important that this should be clarified because it becomes more and more difficult to find out what foot Fianna Fáil are standing on. I understood that they objected to the choice of a majority from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club as at present constituted.

Mr. Briscoe

Not at all. That is not the point.

Mr. Walsh

No. There is no objection to the personnel.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh and Deputy Briscoe say that is not the point. What does Deputy MacEntee say?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not going to be cross-examined by the Minister. The Minister is on the defensive.

Mr. Dillon

It is quite impossible to know on what leg they are standing. Now it is not the personnel at all that they object to. I want the House to look at column 1645, Volume 153, No. 11, of the Official Debates of 15th December, 1955. I was speaking:—

"One of the conditions pecedent to introducing this legislation was that there should be incorporated in the Schedule to the Bill and submitted to Dáil Éireann a new constitution for the Irish Coursing Club which placed upon them the obligation for a period of two and a half years to secure an executive for the Irish Coursing Club, every single member of which would be democratically elected by the coursing clubs and racetracks in a fair proportion. Is there any other better way in which you can secure democratic control?

Mr. Walsh: No."

Mr. Walsh

Did we not fight that last night for three hours?

Mr. Dillon

Wait. Deputy Walsh goes on to say:—

"Do not appoint your board until you have that done.

Mr. Dillon: We are all agreed about that. I think we are all agreed that if you get such a democratically controlled body it is a good thing that they should exercise a predominant influence.

Mr. Briscoe: There is no doubt about that."

Mr. O'Malley

As opposed to a controlling interest.

Mr. Briscoe

It does not say "control". It says "influence".

Mr. Dillon

A predominant influence.

Mr. Briscoe

It does not say "control".

Mr. Dillon

If you can tell me what is the difference between a predominant influence and a controlling influence you are a better man that I am. Now the argument is that it does not matter how they are constituted. Fianna Fáil have changed their minds and they think now that, no matter how the Irish Coursing Club is elected, you should not take four from their body.

Mr. Walsh

That is right.

Mr. Dillon

I want to suggest that the whole aim and object of this legislation is to get the greyhound industry under the control of a board which shall be truly representative of all interests in the greyhound industry. Now there is scheduled to this Bill a new constitution for the Irish Coursing Club——

Mrs. O'Carroll

On a point of information. Would the Minister give us his definition of the interests of the greyhound industry?

Mr. Dillon

Let me continue. Under that new constitution of the Irish Coursing Club, they must hold elections at each and every racetrack in the country and every coursing club must take part and no coursing club can take part—so as to ensure against the creation of fake or ghost clubs— unless they have had a coursing meeting in the previous 15 months, in electing an executive truly representative of the clubs and the tracks.

Mr. S. Collins

That is the way it is done at the moment.

Mr. Dillon

No.

Mrs. O'Carroll

It is in the rule book.

Mr. Dillon

This is a completely new system of election prescribed in the Schedule.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy cannot read.

Mr. Dillon

I want to submit to the House that the proper people to have a majority on the control board of this industry are the representatives of the industry.

Mr. Walsh

Agreed.

Mr. Dillon

Very well then. Can I now be certain that Deputy Walsh has come down on the side of the proposition that the right people to have a majority on the control board are those who represent the industry?

Mr. Walsh

There are four interests in it.

Mr. Dillon

Now, he is off again. To keep Deputy Walsh pinned down for two minutes to one proposition is like trying to catch quicksilver or a pig with a fork.

Mr. MacEntee

Not one of the Monaghan pigs.

Mr. Dillon

I am making the case without equivocation that the right people to have a predominant influence on the board are the democratically elected representatives of those engaged in the industry. I, therefore, propose that, under the new scheduled constitution, such persons shall be elected and that hereafter the Minister for Agriculture in choosing the board will turn to the 21 persons democratically elected and from their number take four. Until these elections have taken place—and they cannot take place until there is a board in existence to supervise their proper conduct—ad interim I propose to take four from the existing board of control, subject to this proviso that seven members of the existing board of control must go for election within six months, seven more within 18 months and seven more within 30 months.

Mr. S. Collins

Could the breeders, the racetrack owners and the bookmakers not give you democratically elected people from which to choose?

Mr. Briscoe

That is the point.

Mr. Dillon

If the Deputy will read the scheduled constitution in this Bill, I think he will find that there is set up machinery to ensure that there will be fair representation for all legitimate interests concerned in this industry. I am submitting to the House that, having got that, ad interim I will choose four from the existing 21, subject to the overriding proviso that they must submit themselves for election and, should they fail to get elected, cease to be members of the board.

Mr. O'Malley

Who represents the bookmakers?

Mr. Dillon

There are two other appointments to the board, outside these four, which will be used to choose good men, be they representative or not. I did say to Deputy Collins that I believe the precedent of the Racing Board might, with prudence, be followed in that regard and on that board there is representation of the bookmaker. I have always believed that.

Mr. O'Malley

. I could not hear the Minister. Will he repeat the part about the Racing Board?

Mr. Dillon

I said repeatedly on the Second Stage that I regarded that precedent of the Racing Board to be one which might, with perfect propriety, be followed in respect of this board. The four members chosen from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club are designed to represent the owners, the trackmen and the coursing men. There are two other vacancies which the Minister is supposed to use to complete the board, and there is the chairman.

I could be arguing, I know, with the present mind of Fianna Fáil until the cows come home, and I would not change them. I know that if Deputy Briscoe could get Deputy O'Carroll or Deputy Collins to lead him into the Lobby, he would go trotting in after them in the hope of establishing a rift in this Government. He will not succeed. I want to assure both the Deputies who have spoken from this side of the House that my aim is to get—and that purpose will be achieved under this Bill—a fully democratically representative body on the Racing Board and fair representation upon it for all legitimate interests associated with the industry. They will have to take my word for that.

Mr. S. Collins

It could be made very simple if there were any way of giving an assurance that election to the Irish Coursing Club will not mean election of four people representing coursing, as distinct from people representing breeding.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will have to refer to the Schedule giving the new constitution.

Mr. Fagan

I want to bring people's minds back. I had 40 or 50 greyhounds at one time and I registered them in the English Stud Book. I joined the Irish Coursing Club when Mr. Morris and others tried to start the Irish Coursing Stud Book. I have been a member of the Irish Coursing Club since its inception. I attended many meetings of the club. I was the means of starting two or three coursing clubs in Westmeath. I think I was the means of starting about the third part of coursing in all Ireland. My memory goes back a long way.

My impression all along the line was that, in the Irish Coursing Club, the members always tried to run it straight. All the men who met there gave their services free and were keen to run coursing for the love of it. I won stakes. I was the first man to walk a dog into Shelbourne Park. I know what I am talking about. The more we tried to run the Irish Coursing Club straight, when we began to gather in a little money, the more wolves were out to take it from us. Certain associations sprang up that wanted to take control of the Irish Coursing Club. In one case, a man who was leading such an agitation was a man I had warned off for trying to pass me, as slip steward, with a painted dog. That is the sort of thing that we in the Irish Coursing Club had to fight all along the line. When dog racing started, everyone was fighting for his own interest. The value of greyhounds was increasing. Deputy McGrath has referred to the value of pedigrees. It was very hard to curb abuses in that respect, but the Irish Coursing Club did curb them. At present, they have a group of officials that it is very hard to get behind. It is now impossible to produce a false paper in order to register a dog. Some years ago that could be done. A lot of these abuses have been curbed by the action of the Irish Coursing Club. That is why I am solidly behind the Minister in giving the Irish Coursing Club major representation on this new board. This can be changed as time goes on. At present, the Irish Coursing Club is composed of every honest breeder in Ireland. Every coursing club is composed of the local breeders. Everybody knows that the rule of the Irish Coursing Club is that you cannot run a dog at a local meeting unless you are a member of the Irish Coursing Club. Therefore, the Irish Coursing Club is composed of the men who breed the dogs. Every one of these clubs sends two members every year to a meeting of the Irish Coursing Club and, from them and other parties, the board is composed. It is just and right that the Irish Coursing Club should have four on the board, because they represent the backbone of the industry, the small farmer who breeds dogs.

I have listened to Deputy Briscoe and I have attended meetings of the Irish Coursing Club. I heard such speeches as his from those who were trying to get the grip. The Minister is going to stop that. In a year or two, he may have an honest, right and proper Racing Board to look after this matter. I would ask that the Irish Coursing Club be given full representation on this board, so that it may continue its work for the industry.

Mr. MacEntee

The Minister for Agriculture seems to be in a bit of a fog. He wants to know what leg Fianna Fáil stands on. It stands, as it always stood, on the principle that it does not want corruption in public life or corruption in sport. If ever there was a Bill designed to perpetuate corruption and to give something to those responsible for corruption, this Bill is.

Mr. Dillon

Is Deputy Walsh listening to this?

Mr. MacEntee

It is time the Minister stopped his talk about throwing mud, because after all, I did not set up this advisory committee. I did not try to influence its findings; I did not give evidence before it; and I did not sign its report. But Deputy Barry, sitting behind the Minister, did and Mr. Peter P. Wilkinson, well known to the Minister for Finance, did. If the Minister wants to know on what leg we are standing, I shall tell him. It is on the leg that we want to see the conclusions of the advisory committee taken seriously by the Minister for Agriculture, and we want to clean out of this board, and we want to clean out of the industry the widespread corruption which the Minister's own inquisition found existed there.

Let the Minister not talk about throwing mud. This is a public document, issued by the Minister for Agriculture himself. It is the report of the advisory committee on the greyhound industry. Let us read from its pages. These are not my conclusions. As I say, I was not there and I am taking the words of the Minister's nominees that the statements in this printed document as published by the Minister himself are well founded. What do they say on page 11? I shall give the references and any person who cares to may check for himself. In paragraph 20 of the report, there appears the statement—this is not throwing mud, except such mud as Deputy Barry and Mr. Peter P. Wilkinson and the other chosen nominees of the Minister themselves have made:—

"Although the object of having a duplicate card in the custody of the Irish Coursing Club is obviously to provide that the two cards should at all times correspond; in other words, that any records of the dog's performance entered on the owner's card should as soon as possible appear on the duplicate card, adequate steps to achieve this are not taken."

"Adequate steps are not taken to achieve this." Upon whom does the responsibility rest to see that adequate steps are taken to ensure that the cards truthfully and accurately record performances of the dogs? Who, but the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club to whom the Minister for Agriculture is about to hand over the control of the whole greyhound industry in Ireland. In their report, the committee went on to talk about the results:—

"The result is that cases have occurred where record of a dog's performance, entered on the original card, has been falsified and difficulty has been experienced in providing evidence of such falsification."

That appears on page 11, in paragraph 20, of the Minister's own official document. And yet he talks about throwing mud, when one with a knowledge of the background and circumstances which this Bill is designed to cover up, as I believe now, tries to expose the insincerity and the hypocrisy of the Minister in his dealing with this Bill. On page 12, in paragraph 21, there appears a statement as follows:—

"A reference was made in paragraph 13 to the substitution of copies.

We have been informed that inasmuch as a period of 16 months from the date of birth may, and usually does lapse, before a litter or any member of it is seen by a recognised official of the Irish Coursing Club, there is very grave danger of substitution of puppies and that in fact frequent cases of substitution occur."

Mr. Fagan

That is not so now.

Mr. MacEntee

We have all seen copies of a document circulated to the members of this Dáil, obviously issued by some person representing the Irish Coursing Club, which challenges Dáil Éireann to try to legislate to clean up this industry. But that is only by the way. I want to get back to the paragraph which has been quoted. The paragraph reads on:—

"It is almost inevitable that some mortality takes place amongst puppies in the early weeks of their lives. Cases are apparently not unknown where the litter was replenished from other litters possibly bred from mediocre parents."

We have heard a statement by Deputy McGrath to which my friend on the Government side, Deputy Fagan, has subscribed——

Mr. Fagan

That does not hold good any longer.

Mr. A. Barry

He owns a few now himself.

Mr. MacEntee

In paragraph 22 the following statement appears:—

"We are satisfied that the present regulations, as described in the foregoing, offer considerable scope for abuse into a small minority of unscrupulous breeders, mainly because of the fact that definite identification marks are not placed on an animal until it is 16 months old. More than one witness was in favour of ineradicable tattoo markings at a much earlier stage and a maximum age of eight weeks was suggested. In support of this recommendation, it was pointed out that the introduction of outside puppies into a litter of puppies eight weeks old could scarcely fail to be detected by an experienced official of the Irish Coursing Club, whereas at 16 months, and even at four months, such identification would be much more difficult."

It is quite true that there were veterinary grounds to object to that.

Mr. Dillon

Go on and finish the paragraph.

Mr. MacEntee

In any event——

Mr. Dillon

Finish the paragraph. If you want to throw mud, throw it honestly.

Mr. MacEntee

We do not forget Messrs. Maximo & Morris, and the Minister had better not forget that. If the Minister does not mend his hand and try to meet the legitimate objections we have in this House to this Bill, there will be some other disclosures before this debate ends. I was saying——

Mr. Dillon

I thought you would drop dead before you would mention Maximo before this House.

Mr. MacEntee

I said there were strong and valid reasons——

Mr. Dillon

You were the people who brought him to the President's house.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order! Deputy MacEntee, on the section.

Mr. Dillon

But did you hear, Sir, what he said. He flung Maximo and Eindiguer at me. He was the man who brought him to the President's house and now he brings him up before me in this House. He has no shame.

Mr. MacEntee

Who was the first person he met? It was the man who controlled the Irish Coursing Club. However, I shall get on.

Mr. Dillon

Let the dead rest.

Mr. MacEntee

If I will be permitted to continue with the observations—of course the Minister does not like this exposure. He is endeavouring to prevent me from reciting to this House and putting on the records of this House as evidence in future what his own friends have said about this body——

Mr. Dillon

Go on and finish the paragraph.

Mr. MacEntee

I was proceeding to do so.

Mr. Dillon

When you were made to.

Mr. MacEntee

I was about to say that there were strong and valid grounds for objecting to tattooing puppies at eight weeks old. I did not want to bother the House by completing the paragraph, but I shall do so now:—

"Other witnesses objected to this early tattooing on the grounds that young puppies are extremely delicate, that the official steward who would perform the tattooing, coming as he often would, from one litter, might possibly introduce disease and that this risk would also be present if, for example, the litter as a whole were taken to a centre where tattooing would be done by an official steward."

I do not think that exculpates the officials of the Irish Coursing Club. I do not think it does. It merely says the affairs of this club have been managed so carelessly and so negligently in the past that their officials were likely to be careless in discharging their duties or were likely not to take the requisite precautions to prevent the transmission of disease. That is all that paragraph says and the Minister has it for what it is worth.

We come now to page 52, paragraph 127. These are not my words; they are the words of those who know more about it and if the Minister thinks this is mud, I did not make it. These are the words of the Minister's friends, of the Minister's nominees, of the Minister's trusted representatives on this advisory committee. On page 52, paragraph 126, it is stated, and 1 am quoting:—

"With few exceptions witnesses criticised to a greater or lesser degree the administration of the Irish Coursing Club and the standing committee."

—the 21 people from whom the Minister for Agriculture, like Diogenes with the lantern, is going to try to find four honest men——

Mr. Dillon

Does Deputy Walsh hear that? Does he subscribe to that?

Mr. MacEntee

"The criticism was not confined to any particular interest, but that coming from representatives of greyhound breeders"——

Mr. Dillon

Does Deputy Walsh subscribe to that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy MacEntee is in possession.

Mr. MacEntee

——"was definitely the most severe." This Bill, the ostensible reason for this Bill, the reason which the Minister has avouched to justify the fact that he is introducing it in the Dáil, sponsoring it here is that it is the breeders in whom he is interested, the greyhound breeding industry, and not very closely and not very strongly in any other aspect of the problem.

Mr. Dillon

I defy you to read paragraph 127 on page 52.

Mr. MacEntee

I am coming to it. Let the Minister just listen now if he can. "The criticism"—I am sorry to have to repeat—"was not confined to any particular interest, but that coming from representatives of the greyhound breeders was definitely the most severe. These latter interests as well indeed as others were emphatically in favour—" What were they emphatically in favour of? They were "emphatically in favour of the complete abolition of the Irish Coursing Club and its standing committee and the vesting of the assets, powers and functions of these bodies in a new control board". This is the Minister's own committee; he set it up, and what do they tell us? "These latter interests, as well indeed as others, were emphatically in favour of the complete abolition of the Irish Coursing Club". And this Bill has been introduced to perpetuate the existence of the Irish Coursing Club under its present-day control! The Minister is flying in the face of the recommendations and findings of his own committee.

Mr. Dillon

These are not the findings; there are more findings left to the end.

Mr. MacEntee

Wait until we come along further:—

"In considering these recommendations we have borne in mind the fact, that in difficult times, those who founded the Irish Coursing Club undertook an onerous task and in a relatively short time achieved notable success".

—I am not denying them any credit for that——

Mr. Dillon

Go on.

Mr. MacEntee

——but I am placing on the members of the Irish Coursing Club responsibility for the position as, I think, it exists to-day and, as Deputy Fagan has admitted, it existed up to two years ago.

Mr. Dillon

Finish what you are reading.

Mr. MacEntee

I will.

Mr. Dillon

When you are made do it.

Mr. MacEntee

"in reviving and establishing on a well organised basis a declining national pastime. We are not also unmindful of the fact that the great majority of the members of the Irish Coursing Club both present and past have freely spent their time and energies, not for any financial reward, but entirely because of their natural love of the greyhound and the sport of coursing."

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear! Did it not take an awful lot to make you read that out?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not want to detract from any gesture of sympathy, any desire to take the rough edge off the hard word which may have moved the heart of Deputy Anthony Barry to put in that saving clause, but I do come back to what is the real kernel of the whole matter, the fact that criticism was not confined to any particular interest, that

"these latter interests as well indeed as others were emphatically in favour of the complete abolition of the Irish Coursing Club and its standing committee and the vesting of the assets, powers and functions of these bodies in a new control board."

These are the real operative words. The rest of them, the sympathy, the soft soap—they do not count and should not count in the mind of any Minister who is prepared to take a clear and unequivocal view.

Mr. Dillon

These are not recommendations of the board.

Mr. MacEntee

Do not worry, I shall come to them, and when I do the Minister will not like them one bit. The Minister compelled us to go into this——

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will not get away with falsehood.

Mr. MacEntee

——when he asked us what leg we elected to stand on. We are electing to stand on the fact that we want clean sport in this country.

Mr. Dillon

Wherever there is mud, we will find the Deputy wallowing in it.

Mr. MacEntee

The Minister challenged me to read the next paragraph. I know these paragraphs almost by heart——

Mr. Dillon

I am sure the Deputy does.

A Deputy

As well as you know greyhounds.

Mr. MacEntee

Do not ask me to expose my long-forgotten past sins. The report states:—

"While we feel bound to agree that many of the criticisms directed against the Irish Coursing Club are well founded——"

—does the Minister hearken to those words or have they any meaning for him?—

"—we also feel that its faults have been largely due to the assumption of functions which were not anticipated by its founders and that the necessary reorganisation of the club did not keep pace with the newly assumed functions and increasing responsibilities."

What does that mean? In four words, that they were not up to their jobs— that is what it means.

Mr. A. Barry

Precisely.

Mr. MacEntee

Precisely. And the men who were not up to their jobs, who were in complete and in totalitarian control of this Irish Coursing Club——

Mr. A. Barry

Does it mean corruption?

Mr. MacEntee

You could not know that.

Mr. A. Barry

Does it mean corruption?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know whether Deputy Barry has seen it, but I have some facts here——

Mr. A. Barry

Does it mean corruption?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know. Wait now. I am going to tell the Deputy what he had to say——

A Deputy

You would tell Saint Peter what to say.

Mr. MacEntee

It does say this in paragraph 127:—

"While we feel bound to agree that many of the criticisms directed against the Irish Coursing Club are well founded and that to some extent these were due to the fact that the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club was not up to its job."

Now what does it all amount to? What does everything that Deputy Barry and his colleagues on the advisory committee said amount to? It amounts to a conclusion which Deputy Barry—no, that would be unfair; I do not know whether he helped to draft it or not but he was only one with Mr. Peter Wilkinson and seven others. He was only one of nine people who arrived at this conclusion having heard all the evidence from the various interests. They arrived at this conclusion and I am going to put it on the records of the House, although I suppose I shall be told that I am throwing mud when I am doing so.

On page 83, paragraph 88, of the Report of the Advisory Committee, it is stated:—

"Having examined, in accordance with our terms of reference, ‘the position respecting coursing, greyhound racing, greyhound breeding and other related activities', we have found that no branch of the industry as at present conducted is entirely free from criticism. In connection with breeding and coursing, many well-defined existing rules have not been enforced and have gradually come to be ignored, thus giving rise to irregularities and more or less serious abuses. But it is in connection with greyhound racing that the most serious abuses have been practised with impunity, and it is here that the unsavoury atmosphere has been created, which unfortunately and undeservedly, has come to be associated with the greyhound industry as a whole——"

The report states that "existing rules have not been enforced". By whom have they not been enforced? By the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. The rules had come to be ignored by the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club itself, as well as by anybody else who could get away with it. And the report goes on:—

"——thus giving rise to irregularities and more or less serious abuses. But it is in connection with greyhound racing that the most serious abuses have been practised with impunity, and it is here that the unsavoury atmosphere has been created, which unfortunately and undeservedly, has come to be associated with the greyhound industry as a whole".

Let us take that sentence. Why should that be? What was the reason for it? Deputy Barry well knows. It was because, out of the 21 members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club, not less than 13 were directors of greyhound tracks. It was due to their evil influence that Deputy Barry was compelled, in all justice and honesty, to report to the Minister for Agriculture that it was in connection with greyhound racing "that the most serious abuses have been practised with impunity, and it is here that the unsavoury atmosphere has been created, which, unfortunately and undeservedly, has come to be associated with the greyhound industry as a whole."

That is not my finding. That is the finding of the committee set up by Deputy Dillon when he previously held the position of Minister for Agriculture. It is not my finding; it is the finding of his friends; and it is a finding which the evidence given before that advisory committee will substantiate to be true and justifiable. Let us hear what, in fact, did emerge. We are only dealing with one portion of the documentation that should be before this House. We should have here now, when we are considering this Bill, if we are doing our duty as public men, all the evidence which was before the committee set up by the Minister and which led them to their findings. That evidence does not appear.

I can, I hope, fill in the gap in the documentation. I am quoting from a document put in evidence before that committee. It was put in in evidence by the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association, a document which was referred to in a memorandum issued and circulated by the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. We say that, if it had not been for the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association, we should not have had any investigation into the conduct of this industry at all, and the Minister is concerned to protect the vested interests of the Irish Coursing Club, but he has not wanted the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association to get the whole credit in this matter.

Let us see what they said. They said, first of all:—

"The only way to direct a coursing club was through the body that controlled it and the advent of tracks gave people who were in a prominent position in the coursing club the opportunity of becoming track directors. You might say that other people might invest their money, but that situation developed to such an extent that you had a standing committee of 21 members, 13 of whom became track directors."

That evidence appears on page 140 of the memorandum submitted by the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association and it went on to say:—

"When we tried to air our grievances through the organisation, opposition was shown by Clonmel to such an extent that they issued an instruction to coursing clubs that they were not to be members of our organisation at pain of losing their rights as clubs."

Apparently that statement was accepted by the advisory committee and the implications of that statement were accepted when the members of the advisory committee reported: "But it is in connection with greyhound racing that the most serious abuses have been practised with impunity, and it is here that the unsavoury atmosphere has been created, which unfortunately and undeservedly, has come to be associated with the greyhound industry as a whole." These gentlemen were talking about the aspects of the business which concerned them as breeders, owners and sportsmen. They were speaking about the Irish Coursing Club, whose interests the Minister is so very solicitous to protect in this Bill, and the Irish Coursing Club went so far as to issue instructions to members of coursing clubs that they were not to be members of the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association.

In their submission, the members of the Irish Greyhound Owners' Association stated that, if the advisory committee wanted evidence of that, a copy of that same letter was on the file, but that it would take too much time to get it. A member of the advisory committee, my friend, Deputy Anthony Barry, said: "We are all aware of the reasons" and the chairman said: "I am not aware of it and I would be very glad if you would send the secretary anything of an intimidatory nature."

When in the memorandum a reference is made to persons warned off, the memorandum omits to say that several of those people referred to were warned off because they were members of the Irish Greyhound Association and in that capacity had the audacity to criticise the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. A. Barry

Say that again. Repeat it.

Mr. MacEntee

I cannot stop. I have to go on. Time is marching on. Let us see what else happened. There is a reference here to the manner in which the meetings of the Irish Coursing Club were conducted. This reference in the report of the advisory committee, in the drafting of which I assume Deputy Barry participated, says this:

"It was pointed out to me in the hall that a man was present who was not entitled to be present and that he voted ..."

The man's name is given.

"...His father was a member of the standing committee. He was a man who was very well known, whose appearance and general attitude and conduct at meetings were remarkable and anybody there would know him very well. At that meeting a lady from the office in Clonmel..."

—Mr. So and So's private secretary— again I am not quoting names—

"...and two officials were at the table checking the people who were entitled to come. They presented their cards and credentials. In case I was making a blunder in saying that a man was present who was not entitled to be, I went to the table and I saw Mr. So and So's name on the list as being admitted. Actually it was his son. I went to the son and said: ‘Look, I know your father is sick, but you have not the right to come and vote for him. I am sorry to hurt your feelings, but I am going to object publicly. Do not take it as a personal matter. There is a bit of a fight and we cannot be squeamish about it.' I pointed out that Mr. So and So's son was there and voting for his father without right. That information created a certain amount of consternation."

The witness goes on to relate what happened.

All that is bad enough but there is worse to come. Those who have taken an interest in the long protracted history of this case will remember that certain members of the Greyhound Owners' Association in their capacity as members of the Irish Coursing Club went to court and got discovery of documents. Arising out of it this witness tells of the reaction to what took place:—

"All that is bad enough but there is worse to come. We went down with the solicitor to Clonmel—eight greyhound owners bringing the court action in respect of this ‘illegal' meeting to get a discovery of documents. We went to look through whatever documents we wanted to inspect, and see counsel and solicitor then. We got the minute books."

Mr. Dillon

On a point of order. The Deputy should inform the House what he purports to quote from.

Mr. MacEntee

I am quoting from a report taken by the official stenographer of the evidence given before the Minister's own advisory committee on the greyhound racing industry, evidence which the Minister has not disclosed to the House because he dare not and bring in a Bill with this Section 9 in it. He said:—

"We got the minute books. We asked for the shorthand notes and for the names of the people present at the meeting. On going through that list, on the files, of those present I looked for Mr. So and So's name. I found out that Mr. So and So..."

—the father who was entitled to be there—

"...was not there but that the son's initials were there. I am prepared..."

—this witness said—

"...to state in any court in the world that either that list was altered or another was substituted for it."

That witness went on to say:—

"That will help the committee to realise what we were up against when we were trying to fight for reform. Whoever was responsible for that action was prepared to go to any ends to prove that we were wrong. That is a small insight into that particular meeting."

Then the witness goes on, and I am perfectly certain I agree with him:—

"I should not like to suggest that all the people who were responsible for the control of the coursing club were aware of that incident—but nevertheless it happened."

Let us go on and see something else. I am going to refer only to one incident which shows the degree to which positions in the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club had been abused to their own profit by certain members or officials of the Irish Coursing Club. I am quoting now from page 26. I would remind the House that it has already been pointed out that of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club, consisting of 21 persons, no less than 13 were directors of greyhound racing tracks.

Mr. S. Collins

Does the Minister say if the nominators will be represented?

Mr. Dillon

Certainly.

Mr. MacEntee

I am quoting:—

"There is one other matter on the question of control that will properly come under this heading of officials, where we suggest that the majority of the standing committee are track directors. Our views are along these lines. They have a say in the granting of a track licence, whether a licence should be granted in an area close by or near at hand. As I have already mentioned, human nature being what it is, no group of track directors could in fairness be expected to sit down and consider whether a licence should be granted to another track area without being conscious of the fact that it might hit their own tracks. That is another reason..."

—this witness says—

"...why the present set up is altogether wrong. We might as well ask that power should be given to a shopkeeper to decide whether another shopkeeper should be allowed to set up beside him. Some people may think that it is a good system, but in this particular case we think it is bad. There was a case some time ago of which, no doubt, some members are aware..."

—and I will direct the attention of Deputies listening to me to what this witness is saying. Deputy Thaddeus Lynch ought to have a particular interest in this—he lives in Waterford City—because this witness went on to say—

"...Waterford track was an unlicensed track but it was a reasonably well-run track. It was not their fault that they were unlicensed. They tried to get a licence year after year, but they failed to get a licence. They could not get it from Clonmel and they could not muster up sufficient votes against the bloc voting against them. I may not be correct in all the details, but to the best of my recollection this is what happened. The track was forced to carry on for some time without a licence and then it had to be sold by the people who owned it. There was a report that..."

—a certain person—

"...was interested and he was told by Mr. So and So..."

—the reference to the person interested is more specific than I have given—

"...there was a report that a certain person was interested and he was told by Mr. So and So: ‘Do not buy it now. You will get it a lot cheaper later on.' He did not buy it and Mr. So and So stepped in and afterwards bought it. He was in the position of being the only buyer because he was the only man who was sure that he would get a track licence. I suggest that the vendor in that case was put in the position that he could not sell at its full value because there was only one man who could buy it."

Later on another witness said:—

"So far as the Waterford course was concerned, before we applied at all we closed down the track. We were refused a licence on the ground that it was only so many miles from Clonmel."

You would think that Clonmel was the capital of the U.S.S.R.

"I then quoted the case of Longford and I found that Kilkenny, although it had no track actually in existence had a licence, although it was well within the prescribed limit."

There is a reference also in the report to Powerstown Park and the chairman of the Minister's advisory committee asks whether Powerstown Park is registered as a separate company. Then follows:—

"Mr. So and So: It is a separate company. There are five members of the standing committee deputed to look after it in trust. This was the explanation Mr. So and So gave to me. On the question of finance and as to what they got out of Powerstown Park, we could not get any information after even a lot of cross examination and questions."

There is a reference here to the fact that more serious abuses have been practised with impunity on greyhound tracks which have created an unsavoury atmosphere round the industry.

I am not going to take up the time of the House by reciting the case of "Sarsfield Lad", or "Mad Pilot", because when I mention the case of "Red Jack", I will have covered them all. The case of "Red Jack" was only one of a number referred to in evidence before the committee, and in it there occurs this statement of a Mr. So and So, holding a certain position in the Irish Coursing Club:—

"Mr. So and So has been a pretty big buyer of greyhounds and has been placed in a rather favourable position in that regard. With regard to the ‘Red Jack' case, I do not think he comes off in a very favourable light."

People who may have been interested in the case of "Red Jack" at the time it occurred will remember it disappeared. It was like one of the "ringers" which disappeared very conveniently about three or four years ago. "Red Jack" disappeared out of this country and it is said by this witness—I am not saying whether he is right or wrong—that one of the prominent officials of the Irish Coursing Club seems to have had a hand in getting "Red Jack" out of this country. Let me be careful about this.

Captain Giles

What about "Red Biddy"?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not accepting that as truth.

Mr. Dillon

Why did you give it publicity then?

Mr. MacEntee

Mind you, your own advisory committee thought there was something in these statements. They would not have spoken about the unsavoury atmosphere that had been created about the greyhound tracks, if it had not been for that. Like Caesar's wife, the members of the Irish Coursing Club and the standing committee should be above suspicion, and if the Minister wants to ensure that, then he will approach the discussion of this Bill in a reasonable way and will concede that there were good grounds for reforming this industry. There were abuses and there are abuses to be rooted out. We will take jolly good care that the spade to root out these abuses is not placed in the hands of those who, if they were not responsible for them, certainly did nothing to prevent them.

I have already referred to the fact of persons being warned off and that it became a treasonable offence against the State to question the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. Let us see what some other witness had to say about the proceedings. He offered himself for admission upon terms that he was entitled to. Whether he was entitled to them or not is not a major matter. He was refused admission on these terms. He said:—

"I had reason to go before the standing committee. I went to the Four Courts and asked Mr. So and So that the case should be heard before the standing committee. He advised me like a father, and told me that I had no chance and to race my dogs elsewhere. That is how I was treated, while men who were warned off in connection with the running of dogs were allowed facilities."

Here is the evidence of one witness and I have not seen his evidence challenged. Let it not be forgotten that the representatives of the Irish Coursing Club did not appear a second time before that committee to answer and satisfy the committee that the allegations made against them were untrue. They thought discretion the better part of valour. They lost the case, either in absentia or by default.

Mr. A. Barry

They have a grievance that they were not invited.

Mr. MacEntee

This witness said:—

"He advised me like a father and told me that I had no chance and to race my dogs elsewhere."

It is to break that monopoly and control, which, I think, has been unwarrantably used, that we are anxious that those who are members of the Irish Coursing Club will be a minority of the board, and that those who have been involved in these proceedings in the way in which they have will be in the majority and endeavour to carry out the recommendations that are so urgently necessary. Let me come to another case.

Mr. S. Collins

What about the track directors?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not going to victimise the track directors, as such. We are prepared to accept the Labour Party amendment and have two representatives of the tracks on the greyhound industry board and representatives of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club. We are doing this in relation to the Irish Coursing Club. We have an amendment which will allow members of the Irish Coursing Club to submit themselves for election on equal terms with those who are representative members of the club. I think that is a very fair way of dealing with them. We do not want to victimise any person on that committee, but we want to make certain that, when this job is done, it will be done properly, and that we will have a clean sport and sound industry. Let me come back to what this witness said on page 40.

Mr. S. Collins

If two of the four were breeders, would that not meet the case?

Mr. MacEntee

This is a serious business and we are trying to discuss it seriously.

Mr. S. Collins

I am asking a simple question. If two of the four are breeders, would that not protect them against what the Deputy is steaming about?

Mr. Briscoe

The breeders elect their own representatives.

Mr. MacEntee

I should like to continue without these interruptions from Deputy Collins.

Mr. S. Collins

I am not interrupting. I was simply asking a question.

Mr. MacEntee

I am coming to page 40 of the shorthand note of the evidence given before this committee Here is what this witness said:—

"A girl came in to get a fawn dog marked up. It was supposed to be a puppy."

Mr. S. Collins

On a point of order. Does this document purport to be a document sworn on oath or otherwise?

Mr. MacEntee

It is evidence given.

Mr. S. Collins

Is it evidence given on oath?

Mr. MacEntee

That is quite irrelevant.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is very relevant.

Mr. MacEntee

It is quite irrelevant whether it was sworn on oath or not. This is the evidence upon which the committee based its conclusion that abuses were practised with impunity and that an unsavoury atmosphere was created because of the way in which certain greyhound tracks were managed. Here is an instance of the way in which they were managed:—

"A girl came in to get fawn dog marked up. It was supposed to be puppy. Whether the girl was nervous or whether there was something in the demeanour of the dog which indicated that it was not a puppy, I do not know but the Irish Coursing Club steward refused to mark the dog."

He questioned the girl as to where she got it, how long she had it, who was the owner, and who bred the dog.

"The girl became nervous and the steward said he would not mark the dog, that he would hold him-whether he had authority to do so or not. He frightened the girl so much that the real owner of the dog from a town which was some 50 or 60 miles from this particular track came in to take the dog and there was almost a scene. When he came in it was obvious from the dog that it was a dog which had done 30.6 seconds in a race at a certain place. Quite a number of people attend the trials there and it became common gossip. Mr. So and So — who was not the steward of the Irish Coursing Club but who was a very prominent member of the Irish Coursing Club — after a while said to the Irish Coursing Club steward: ‘I do not think that is necessary at all. I think this dog is all right. You should mark him up.' Mr. So and So, the steward, said he would not and Mr. So and So, the track director, said: ‘Do. It will be all right.' He marked the dog for the girl and everybody there was waiting for this dog when it appeared on the card. In about a fortnight's time, the dog appeared on the card under his new name and every mug in such and such a racing track is in to back it. It was about the time of Galway race meeting. I happened to be working..."

— and, mind you, this track was not in Galway—

"...in the so-and-so that night and I went to the weigh shed and I met a man there with a brindled dog. This dog had a cover on him and the man was a long time in taking it off. There was a ritual about it. I asked this man why he did not race the dog in Galway and he said: ‘I would not forgive them in Galway. They are crooked and I would not register a dog there any more. When all the mug's money is on, in go Mr. So and So's—the director's— friends and a dog called ‘Open Event' is backed. His only reason for bringing the dog to be marked was to get the mugs' money on what they thought was a good thing while he has this other man searching the country for something to beat it. He brought ‘Open Event' up although I am not saying that the old man I speak of knew about it."

That is the sort of thing — let us make no mistake about it — the Minister wants to perpetuate under this Bill. That is the sort of thing we want to prevent and we will prevent it because there will not be a single unsavoury incident that will not be disclosed about this whole industry if the Minister does not mend his approach to the helpful attitude which we on this side of the House took up in the first instance. We were anxious to see that both the interests of the Irish Coursing Club and the interests of the greyhound track owners would be safeguarded. Above all, we are interested in the men who are the foundation of this industry — the Irish greyhound owners and breeders and the Irish sportsmen who are the backbone of this industry. That is our attitude.

The Minister wanted to know what leg we were standing on. I hope we have sufficiently exposed it. We are not going to facilitate the Minister in trying to throw a cloak of legality and the protection of the law over people who have, whether by incompetence or otherwise, been responsible for the position of the Irish greyhound industry to-day. We are perfectly prepared to give every credit that may be due to them for the service they have rendered in the past, but we are not going to close our eyes to the fact that when they were in control of this industry—as the Minister's own friends have said — there was created around it an unsavoury atmosphere which, unfortunately and undesirably, has come to be associated with greyhound racing.

Mr. Dillon

I want to say a word on this disgraceful performance. Deputy MacEntee is notorious in this House for the courage with which he slanders the dead and libels the living. He is particularly apt at slandering the dead for they cannot answer. He got up here——

Mr. MacEntee

There is your report.

Mr. Dillon

——and read what he pleases to call "evidence" without telling this House that anyone was entitled to go and say anything he liked, unbound by oath or any kind of guarantee that he spoke the truth. He did not tell the House that anyone with a grievance was entitled to go there and pour forth his soul in all his sense of grievance — all his suspicions, all his allegations, under privilege but unbound by oath. In these circumstances, the commission deemed that honesty and justice forbade the publication of that. They deemed that, inasmuch as it was not given in public and under the seal of an oath, only those who heard it were properly qualified to weigh its value and to found a report on it.

We must wait for Deputy MacEntee to walk in here and, in his hatred of the living and of the dead, use the unsworn words of grievance-ridden individuals to utter the dirty slanders that he has not got the guts to utter himself. There is something very low in those who throw out their chests to slander the dead.

Mr. MacEntee

Does the Minister remember 1947 and 1948? We do not forget it and his performance then.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. Dillon

The fact remains that here is the report, made by a body of men well qualified to weigh the statements that were laid before them. The fact is that I told Dáil Éireann when I brought this whole Bill—never mind this section—before them that the reason this Bill was necessary was that the old Irish Coursing Club committee, burdened by the responsibility of management of racing which it was never organised to do, had manifestly undertaken a task which it had not got the requisite powers properly to perform with the result that abuses did exist and it was the existence of those abuses that made necessary the presentation of this Bill.

We are assured—and I want to endorse what Deputy Barry intervened to say — that whatever was reported in that report as being amiss was sought to be corrected by the provisions of this Bill. I want to recall to this House's mind again that all we have listened to has been evoked to make a case that we cannot get four honest men from this list of 21. That is what this case is made for. There is no use in throwing all the dirt you can and then repudiating the clear implication of your words. All that this section here provides is that four will be chosen from this list of 21, all of whom will, in due course, submit themselves for election. If they fail to be elected at the hands of the breeders and track owners in their respective provinces they cease to hold office and at the end of two and a half years all future appointments must be made from 21 chosen by the owners, breeders and track proprietors. I having said: "We are all agreed about that. I think we are all agreed that if you get such a democratically controlled body it is a good thing that they should exercise a predominant influence," Deputy Briscoe, as reported at column 1645, said: "There is no doubt about that."

Mr. Briscoe

A predominating influence is not control: three, representing one interest, out of four, is a predominating influence and the Minister's advisory committee recommended three.

Mr. Dillon

I want to make this clear, because an energetic attempt is being made to confuse the point at issue. The elections provided for under the scheduled constitution of the Irish Coursing Club, provide that 21 members of this executive will be chosen by the coursing clubs and tracks in the several provinces. Lest there be any attempt to raise a fake coursing club to the status of an elector, there is a provision that none will be recognised in that status unless it has actually held a coursing meeting in its own area within the previous 15 months.

I know of no more democratic procedure for choosing this executive than that which is envisaged in the Schedule annexed to this Bill. I propose to stand on this principle: these shall be the people who will exercise a predominating influence on this board. I look forward confidently to breeders, track owners and all other legitimate interests being represented on this board when it is so constituted.

The Bill provides that the making of these appointments is the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture. I can only leave it to the House to determine whether or not the present incumbent of that office will discharge that duty honestly. I look for no certificate of character — certainly not from Deputy MacEntee. I would be shocked to receive one from such a source. But I look to Deputies in the other half of the House for the belief that such a commission, delegated to me, will be faithfully and honourably discharged.

Mr. S. Collins

I want to clear up one point. I want to know whether or not, in relation to the four people who will be nominated by the Minister, we can have an assurance that the four will not be elected to represent one interest only.

Mr. Dillon

There is no difficulty about giving that assurance.

Mr. Walsh

It is easily given. I can answer that for the Minister myself.

Mr. Dillon

Why should it not be given?

Mr. MacBride

I feel at a loss and somewhat scared in entering into this discussion because I must plead ignorance of everything to which the Bill relates. It has occurred to me, however, that the position whereby four members of the board are to be selected by the Irish Coursing Club——

Mr. Dillon

Not by the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. MacBride

By the Minister, from members of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club, is probably open to some question in the minds of a number of interested parties because of the atmosphere of controversy which has raged in regard to the Irish Coursing Club, and to the greyhound industry generally. I wonder would the Minister consider the inclusion among the members of the board of a representative of the bookmakers who are actively interested?

Mr. Dillon

I have indicated that it is my intention to do that.

Mr. MacBride

I was not here at the time. I feel that would probably be of some assistance. I do not know whether the Minister might not also consider possibly reducing the number of members to be selected from the Irish Coursing Club, from four to three. The Minister may have good reasons for not doing that, but perhaps it is a matter he might consider.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister quoted on several occasions here to-day a remark made by Deputy Briscoe on the Second Reading of this Bill when he said he agreed that representatives from the standing committee should have a predominating influence; and the Minister, by innuendo, wanted to suggest to the House that a predominating influence meant a controlling influence. He was suggesting that we have been on the one leg all the time on that very point — that we do not want the Irish Coursing Club to have a majority on the board. Now I say that a predominating influence is not a controlling influence. I go further: I point out that the Minister himself could be a predominating influence in the Government but not a controlling influence.

Mr. Briscoe

Nor a majority.

Mr. O'Malley

Earlier the Minister quoted Lloyd George, when he said it was very difficult to pick up mercury with a fork; I think Deputy de Valera suggested on that occasion that Mr. Lloyd George should try picking up mercury with a spoon. I suggest to the Minister that after the interval he should come back here in a less heated mood and try to appreciate that in actual fact there is nothing whatever political in the arguments put up by both sides to-day. It was the Minister who introduced acrimony into the debate last night when he started his famous quotation from Debrett. It has been thrown at us that we are not in favour of control of the new board by the Irish Coursing Club, but that we did the same thing in 1945 when we were setting up the Racing Board.

Let me quote Deputy Cosgrave's attitude in relation to the Racing Board. There is no analogy whatever. In volume 96, column 1114 of the Official Report, Deputy Cosgrave said:—

"I deprecate strongly, as did Deputy Ruttledge, the rather nasty personal references made to certain members of the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee. A list of members of the Turf Club was read out yesterday by a Deputy which included a number of people whom he probably would have liked to exclude. Racing is not politics. Whatever people's opinions or actions in politics may be, sport is another matter. Whether the sport be racing, football, hurling, cricket or any other sport, people are interested in it in the same way as other people may be interested in art or anything else. They enter into it for enjoyment or because it is their means of livelihood."

He goes further and he says:—

"While the stewards of the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee may not have been as go ahead as one might like them to have been, they have, at any rate, conducted the sport cleanly and maintained a high standard of efficiency so far as the actual running of the races and the management of trainers and jockeys are concerned."

There was no shadow of suspicion of any of the members of either of those bodies. The only suggestion Deputy Cosgrave made was that they were not as active as they might have been.

Further, at the close of that speech he said:—

"I hope that in nominating a representative he will be able to get one who will speak for the bookmakers. I am not so sure that he will; I imagine he will have some difficulty. I certainly hope he will not select the bookmaker who has had a good deal to say on this Bill."

Now the Minister spoke here last night about freedom and liberty. I took a note of what he said; we must have some regard for the rights of interested persons in respect of whose business you are in fact legislating.

The Minister is now coming around to the viewpoint of this side of the House in regard to one specific section —and I am not taunting the Minister. He is now going to give representation on the Board to the bookmaking fraternity. There are two other sections besides the bookmakers — the racetracks and the greyhound owners and breeders. The Minister admitted last night that these are the four main interests in the industry. We could have saved a lot of valuable time in the House if the Minister came in here to-day and before the amendment was introduced, said a few words to the effect that he was giving the bookmakers representation, that it was his intention to give representation to the racetracks and to the greyhound owners and breeders. This might have avoided a great deal of unnecessary debate. Even at this stage the Minister, if he so wished, could refrain from specifying the greyhound owners and breeders and the racetrack representatives. He has agreed to give the bookmakers representation on the board.

Mr. S. Collins

And the breeders. He has given that assurance.

Mr. O'Malley

He has given a definite assurance about the bookmakers' interests. The Minister has often said himself that any amendment which is put down and argued in a reasonable manner will be accepted by him. He has used words to that effect. In any case, the bookmakers will have a representative on the new board. I do not want to go into the question as to how that representative will be elected or selected, whether the Minister will choose him or whether he will allow the Southern Bookmakers' Association and the Bookmakers' Association in this part of the country to come together and submit a name to him.

Mr. Briscoe

Submit a list of names from which he can choose one.

Mr. S. Collins

That is what will be done.

Mr. O'Malley

The Minister himself could have brought in a ministerial amendment to cover this point because when the Racing Board Bill was going through in 1945 the bookmakers in particular had a good deal of sympathy from all sides of the House. To refresh the Minister's memory of what he said at that time might not be out of place.

Mr. Dillon

I am sure you will find me perfectly consistent.

Mr. O'Malley

I am quoting from column 1881, Volume 96, of the Official Debates of the 11th April, 1945. He spoke at considerable length and, having paid tribute to the bookmakers in Ireland on the lines that but for them, racing might as well close down and that they were the main factor in making the scene at race meetings so colourful, he concluded:—

"I go so far as to affirm the paradox: the racehorse-breeding industry ultimately depends on the bookmaker's umbrella. Close one and, sooner or later, you will close the other. Pursue the policies laid down in this Bill and you will close the bookmaker's umbrella and it may be then too late to save the horse-breeding industry in this country."

Mr. Dillon

It is a pity that the bookmakers did not go back and read that and they might have more sense.

Mr. O'Malley

The bookmakers are only a small section of the representation which we are seeking on the board. The greyhound owners and breeders and the racetracks are two other vital interests. The Minister made a crack sotto voce, if I might use the expression, at the bookmakers earlier on and criticised the unhappy methods they adopted to achieve their aims. That might be correct or otherwise — I am not giving an opinion — but surely a licensed bookmaker has as much right as any ordinary trade unionist to go on strike if he so wishes. The Minister is a sensible man, I hope, and will appreciate that it would be very foolish on their part to wait until the Bill became law. What would be the use of going on strike then? They would have to wait until we came back to power to give them justice.

Mr. S. Collins

Live horse, and you will get grass.

Mr. O'Malley

I have already said to the Minister that we were not taunting him. I have already complimented him on the fact that he has seen the light, not only from the Fianna Fáil Benches but, because of the attitude of Deputy Mrs. O'Carroll, Deputy Collins and other representatives, from the Government side of the House as well. The bookmakers will be on the board and the greyhound owners and breeders will be on the board.

Mr. Briscoe

Is that agreed?

Mr. S. Collins

That assurance was given.

Mr. O'Malley

We have not got a definite assurance.

Mr. S. Collins

The Minister gave an assurance that the breeders would not have less representation than the other interests.

Mr. O'Malley

We have got one specific undertaking here to-day that the bookmakers will be represented.

Mr. S. Collins

You have got two.

Mr. Briscoe

We got one.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Malley is entitled to speak without interruption.

Mr. O'Malley

The undertaking to which Deputy Collins refers is not specific enough. "Greyhound owners and breeders" is much too wide a field, and if he swallows the Minister's promise that he will give representation to the greyhound owners and breeders he is a very foolish man.

Mr. S. Collins

I accord to any Minister the dignity of his position and accept the assurance he gives to the House.

Mr. O'Malley

I say the Minister has a very wide field from which to choose in carrying out the promise to the Deputy. However, we have got a specific undertaking in relation to the bookmakers. On the point of the four representatives, we have heard enough about the history of certain members of the Irish Coursing Club and I have no intention of going back on that ground. However, I should like to refer to a point which has been made here to-day. The control on the new board will be in the hands of the Irish Coursing Club. That point has been made over and over again by speakers on all sides of the House.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.