Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1956

Vol. 154 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £34,770 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1956, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The details are as follows:—

Under sub-head E (1)—£10,000—provision is made in a new item for the running expenses of a seed production farm at Backweston, Lucan, to extend the facilities for breeding and raising of pedigree strains of seeds of the principal agricultural crops leading up to schemes which have been inaugurated for the production of certified seed.

Sub-head E (6)—£25,000—is a new sub-head and provides for the establishment of a peat land experimental station at Glenamoy, County Mayo.

The House will recall that last year the Government carried out a full investigation into the plans and prospects of the statutory company entitled Min Fheir Teoranta which had been preparing for the production and sale of grass meal at Glenamoy, County Mayo. As a result of this investigation the Government came to the conclusion that other measures would prove of more lasting economic and social benefit to Bangor Erris and would contribute towards a solution of the general economic problems of the western region. The Government accordingly decided that the bog at Glenamoy should be developed by the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands working in close co-operation.

The Department of Agriculture is now undertaking comprehensive experiments to ascertain how best blanket bog can be reclaimed for agricultural use and applied to the creation of cultivable holdings in the West. The Forestry Division is carrying out a full-scale experiment in the afforestation of a tract of blanket bog. As regards cultivation, our object is to learn by properly conducted experiments the best and cheapest methods of drainage and of fertilising and the most suitable crops to be grown. To achieve this object a peat land experimental station is being established at Glenamoy. The station will include farm buildings, a laboratory and office unit and accommodation for the staff. The cost of the necessary buildings and certain equipment, estimated at £45,000, will be met from the National Development Fund. The running expenses of the station (including staff and manual workers) during the current financial year, to which sub-head E (6) of this Supplementary Estimate relates, are estimated at £25,000. This amount includes a sum of £12,423 8s. which was paid to Min Fheir Teoranta for the company's assets, including machinery and equipment, which were transferred to the Department of Agriculture on 30th August, 1955. A sum of £70,000 was included in the Industry and Commerce Vote for the current year to provide for grants to Min Fheir Teoranta to defray the capital expenses of the company.

Only £4,300 of that sum was issued prior to the termination of the Min Fheir activities and the commencement of operations by the Departments of Agriculture and Lands at Glenamoy, and there is thus a substantial saving on the Industry and Commerce Vote to offset the additional expenditure now being provided under this Vote. I should add that Min Fheir is in process of being wound-up and its cash balance on completion of the liquidation will be transferred to the Exchequer.

There was no interruption of work at Glenamoy as a result of the transfer of the interest of Min Fheir Teoranta to the Department and drainage operations and other preparatory work have been continued vigorously in preparation for the large-scale experiments which are being initiated. Eleven workers have been recruited by the Department of Agriculture in addition to the 29 men taken over from Min Fheir Teoranta and I understand that a further 23 men have been recruited by the Forestry Division for afforestation work, bringing the total number at present employed at Glenamoy to 63.

It is hoped to have buildings erected this year and meanwhile plans are being laid to seek answers to problems connected with moisture, soil amelioration, cropping and the management and utilisation of crops. Detailed and diverse experiments in drainage, liming and manuring, cultivation, crop varieties, shelter belts, harvesting and crop rotations are being laid down scientifically and will be accurately recorded so that comprehensive information may be obtained on the many and varying problems of bog utilisation. Experiments are being undertaken with the object of finding an appropriate technique to increase at minimum cost the stock-carrying capacity of uncultivated peat land. Special attention will be paid to the study of fodder conservation for winter feeding in areas of high rainfall, and the cultivation of industrial crops suitable to peat land. Such information will prove useful in the treatment of other bog and hill lands and will, it is hoped, have wide application over large areas of western counties.

Sub-head K (4)—£4,500—is a new sub-head and arises out of the subsidiary agreement dated 16th January, 1956, with the American authorities in connection with the Grant Counterpart Special Account. It provides for issues as shown all of which will be ultimately recoverable from Grant Counterpart Funds.

Sub-head M (4)—£5,000—is to cover commitments entered into in respect of loans the administration of which has been transferred to the Agricultural Credit Corporation.

With regard to sub-head M (8)— £105,000—the original £550,000 for the payment of grants under the farm buildings scheme is insufficient to meet payments during the current financial year. In the period 1st April, 1955, to 31st January, 1956, grants amounting to £521,000 were paid, as against £479,000 in the corresponding period last year. The average grant in the current year is working out at £34 as compared with £32 in the previous year. It is expected that the grants which will fall due for payment in the remainder of the year will amount to £149,000 or a total of £670,000. This is an excess of £120,000 on the original provision, but a saving of £15,000 is expected on the water supplies scheme for which £118,000 was provided.

On sub-head N. (10)—£80,000—the quantities of ground limestone delivered since the introduction of the scheme for payment of subsidy on the cost of delivery of the material, are as follows:— #

Year	Quantity Delivered
1951-52	278,000 tons
1952-53	502,000,,
1953-54	648,000,,
1954-55	806,000,,

The quantity delivered to farmers from 1st March, 1955, to mid-January, 1956, was 824,000 tons as compared with 592,000 tons delivered in the same period of the previous year. It is, accordingly, estimated that total deliveries in the current financial year will be in excess of 1,000,000 tons, an increase of about 25 per cent. on 1954-55. Expenditure by way of subsidy will, therefore, be greater than was anticipated and is now estimated at £680,000 instead of £600,000 as originally voted. Subsidy paid in 1954-55 amounted to £565,000.

Sub-head N (1)—£5—is a new item and is inserted to make provision for the payment of compensation for animals slaughtered on account of Johne's disease. The actual expenditure is expected to be about £500 but there are ample savings under other items of the sub-head to meet it.

Johne's disease is a serious infectious disease of cattle and to some extent also of sheep and goats, and is widespread in many countries, including Britain. The characteristic symptoms of the disease in cattle are gradual emaciation, reduced milk production and later persistent diarrhoea. The condition is usually fatal, there being no effective curative treatment.

So far, the incidence of the disease in Ireland is not as serious as in Britain or other countries abroad. Cases have, however, been tending to occur in this country in recent years to an extent which makes it necessary that comprehensive control measures for dealing with the disease should be available. To this end an Order entitled "Johne's Disease Order" was made on 12th May, 1955, under the Diseases of Animals Acts. Under this Order notices may be served restricting the movement of animals affected or suspected of being affected with Johne's disease. The Order also enables the Minister to cause to be slaughtered any animals affected or suspected of being affected with Johne's disease and provides for payment of compensation in respect of animals so slaughtered.

With regard to sub-head M (2)— £2,250, the number of animals slaughtered under the Bovine T.B. Order, 1926, was greater than was anticipated.

The net deficiency in the Appropriations-in-Aid-sub-head R—is £217,515, details of which are furnished in the printed Estimate. The individual items hardly call for comment except perhaps 19 (a), the recoupment from American Grant Counterpart Special Account. In general terms the reduced figures for receipts are due mainly to the fact that expenditure was not incurred sufficiently early to earn the recoupment from the grant in this financial year or expenditure was incurred before the agreements were signed.

The gross additional sum as shown on page 1 of the printed Estimate is £449,270, but this has been offset to the extent of £414,500 by savings on other sub-heads. There are two items worthy of comment in these savings (1) £100,000—Grants for Pasteurisation of Milk, and £42,000—Bovine T.B. Eradication Scheme. The pasteurisation scheme is an important adjunct to the T.B. eradication scheme and money expended under it is recoverable from the American Grant Counterpart. As the scheme is only in its preliminary stages payments have not yet matured. The saving of £42,000 on the T.B. eradication scheme has occurred in County Clare where the disposal of reactors and the completion of byres have not proceeded as quickly as anticipated.

As Deputies are aware, the T.B. eradication scheme is now in operation throughout the country and provides facilities to farmers or groups of farmers who desire to build up herds free of T.B. Herd-owners who participate in the scheme are entitled to:—

(1) Free T.B. testing of their herds by their own veterinary surgeons;

(2) Free professional advice on the eradication of T.B. from their herds;

(3) Grants at double the rates normally payable under the farm buildings scheme for the erection or improvement of cow byres;

(4) Grants for the extension of piped water supplies to farmyards and farms in addition to the grant normally available under the water supply scheme.

Three areas have been specially selected for the intensive eradication of the disease, namely, County Clare, County Sligo and the Bansha area. In these areas, the free professional advice at (2) above is provided by departmental veterinary inspectors and in addition herd-owners receive payment at current market value in respect of reactors (i.e., cattle failing to pass the T.B. test) disposed for slaughter at the direction of the Department.

The scheme is on a voluntary basis at present and each herd-owner who elects to become a participant, after his herd has had the initial T.B. test which is carried out without any obligation on the part of the owner, is required to comply with certain conditions such as convenient assembly of cattle for testing, marking, etc., isolation and removal of reactors, disinfection of premises, improvement of byres and the keeping of a simple form of herd record.

Compulsory measures will, in due course, be necessary for the eradication of the disease but fresh legislation will have to be passed before this step can be taken.

Mr. Walsh

More inspectors.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy oppose the T.B. test schemes?

Mr. Walsh

No. I just said, "more inspectors".

Mr. Dillon

I do not quite get the relevance of the Deputy's remark.

Mr. Walsh

Anything that requires compulsion necessitates inspectors.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Walsh can make his statement afterwards.

Mr. Dillon

In view of the fact that Deputy Walsh was for three years Minister for Agriculture, he is aware that the eradication of foot and mouth disease requires compulsory powers of slaughter.

Mr. Walsh

I never said we could do it without inspectors. The Minister said he could.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Walsh will get an opportunity to make his statement.

Mr. Dillon

The widespread response to the scheme following its introduction in September, 1954, has been maintained. Applications received up to the end of January, 1956, covered almost 46,500 herds of which 13,000 were from the three intensive areas. Tests were completed in almost 37,000 herds representing more than 500,000 animals. These tests disclosed that in north - western counties such as Donegal, Galway, Mayo and Sligo, more than 50 per cent. of the herds tested were free of disease while in the dairying counties in the South, such as Limerick and Cork, the incidence of disease was relatively high.

The second tests of herds were commenced in October, 1955, but reports on these tests are not so far available in sufficient numbers to permit the preparation of statistical material.

The provision of £262,000 under sub-head M (13) is in respect of the administration of the scheme in County Clare and in the rest of the country (other than County Sligo and Bansha area). The provision covers all expenditure on the scheme in these areas other than grants for the extension of piped water supplies to farmyards and farms in County Clare and the rest of the country and supplementary byre grants in the rest of the country which are being met out of the National Development Fund. The expenditure provided for under sub-head M (13) will be recouped from the American Grant Counterpart Fund.

Expenditure on the scheme in County Sligo and Bansha area is also being met out of the National Development Fund.

Mr. Walsh

Might I ask the Minister one question? He has mentioned two headings under which he has had savings—£100,000 for pasteurisation of milk and £42,000 on the T.B. scheme. Where the balance of £414,500 to be found?

Mr. Dillon

I will get that worked out for the Deputy. I have not got it by me at the moment.

Mr. Walsh

I was wondering if we had discovered another accomplishment along with the many accomplishments which the Minister has. That is the art of cooking. At the first glance at this Vote, it would appear that there was a bit of cooking done when the Estimates were being prepared last year. It is very hard to understand how a mistake such as the loss of £6,000 on Athenry agricultural station could take place without the knowledge of the Minister and the Department. There was also a loss of £2,000 on Ballyhaise station and a further loss of £2,000 on the Grange farm station. That is a loss of £10,000 on the three stations. However, we will deal with that at a later stage.

I am glad to see that the Minister did make provision, by the purchase of a farm, for the extension of seed testing. It is one of the things that we need most in this country. While I was Minister we had started on the wheat scheme and we tried to get a farm to extend that branch of agriculture. The propagation of seeds, grass seeds and cereal seeds, root seeds and all the other seeds is a matter of great importance.

Mr. Dillon

I can now give the Deputy the details he asked for.

Mr. Walsh

It is all right. I was just wondering where the figure of £414,500 was to be found.

Again I am glad to see that the farm building scheme and the water supply scheme have made progress. The farm building scheme, as we all know, has been in operation in the country for a long time and the success of that scheme is dependent on the generosity of the Department by way of the grants that are given. If the grants are sufficiently high, they will induce people to invest some of their own money in the renovation and reconstruction of their buildings. That would be a good thing but the grants would require to be made attractive so as to encourage the people to go ahead. This scheme is very necessary because here in this country, as the Minister knows, not merely are our farm buildings bad, but we also suffer from the very bad condition of our dwellings. I am glad to see that that scheme has been extended year after year, and that we have been spending more money in this country on the reconstruction of our farm buildings.

I am also glad to see that the water supply scheme has had a fairly good measure of support. That measure of support has not been as good as we should like because it should have been a great boon to the ordinary farmer and the ordinary farmer's wife to have water brought into their houses. I think that one of the things preventing the expansion of that scheme is that water is not being brought into the farm buildings. If the Minister included farm buildings in this scheme there would be a general expansion, not merely in the number of people that would take the water into their dwelling houses, but in the number of people who would take it into their farm buildings.

There are parts of the country where there are very poor water supplies and where farmers suffer under great disabilities particularly in the summer time when they have to drive cattle long distances to water or to carry water long distances to their cattle.

Mr. Dillon

It is extended to these areas under the bovine T.B. eradication scheme.

Mr. Walsh

I know that, but it will take a long time before the scheme is extended to the country generally.

Mr. Dillon

It is so extended.

Mr. Walsh

Is it extended generally?

Mr. Dillon

It is extended to all participants in the bovine T.B. eradication scheme.

Mr. Walsh

As the Minister knows there are many people on the waiting list to have their cattle tested. I know that the applications are being dealt with pretty well and that there is no undue delay, but, at the same time, there are people who will not have their cattle tested for some considerable period. Then there is the difficulty of getting tradesmen and technicians to put in the water. No matter how much the Minister is inclined to hurry up the scheme there will be a general delay all over the country if you have not the people to do the work.

Mr. Dillon

It is a pleasant thing, is it not, that we are providing too much employment?

Mr. Walsh

I do not think that scheme is going to extend employment very much. Tradesmen are fully employed at the present time.

Mr. Dillon

Gloria in excelsis Deo.

Mr. Walsh

Perhaps the men are not in the country.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will help me to get them back.

Mr. Walsh

Recent statistics indicated a drop in the number of people on the land. I think the Minister for Social Welfare answered this yesterday and revealed that the figures were still dropping notwithstanding the fact that the Minister for Agriculture has been out over the past three or four weeks telling the people that the drift from the land has stopped and that the people are coming back on it. The Minister for Social Welfare says: "No, they are still going." However, I suppose that is for another time.

I am very glad that we have an expansion of the ground limestone subsidy scheme. The Minister did give the total tonnage that was put on the land for the past few years. It is a remarkable thing about the Minister that he can choose the dates which he wants to make a good case and he can also select the ones he wants to make a bad case. For instance, the Minister has a great habit, when he wants to condemn somebody or some party, of choosing the year 1947, but he omitted to mention the years 1948 or 1949 or 1950 or even 1951 when he was talking about ground limestone. He must remember that in 1950-51, the last year that the Coalition was in office before, 75,000 tons of ground limestone were distributed over the country. He did not give us that figure, I think. He started with something like 240,000 tons, which were spread in the year 1951-52, and he carries on up to 1955-56, which is perfectly right, of course, but the casual listener would imagine that the Coalition and the Minister were responsible for this wonderful expansion that has taken place in the use and distribution of ground limestone. I do not want to detract from the Minister at all. If I were giving these figures I think I would be more honest and truthful about the position.

Mr. Dillon

I take it the Deputy would go back to 1933?

Mr. Walsh

There would be no necessity.

Mr. Dillon

He would then have 15 years blank.

Mr. Walsh

If I were to select a year for statistical purposes I would stick to that year. The Minister often chooses the year 1947 as the basis for his argument——

A Deputy

Give us that figure.

Mr. Walsh

I could, and it is not a pipeful either as the Minister sometimes tells us it is. In 1950-51 it was 75,000 tons and, if we go along year after year, we had a great expansion in the use of ground limestone. That is very necessary.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Walsh

We have all been telling people that we must use more lime if we are to get more production from the land. It has been estimated that we need from 12,000,000 to 15,000,000 tons of lime to put the land in condition to give the best results from manurial dressings in order to correct the acidity in the soil. First of all, we must use the lime and I am glad we have reached the 1,000,000 mark. We had something over 800,000 tons in 1954 —nearly 800,000 tons—and by calculating the amount of lime based on the £80,000 it would appear that about 130,000 to 140,000 tons more were used this year than the Minister estimated when preparing his Estimate.

There is one complaint I have— whether this is the proper time to mention it or not I do not know. It is with regard to the distribution of this lime. There are many complaints at the present time regarding haulage and the difficulty of having lime hauled, difficulties that confront many private producers and prevent them from hiring lorries to haul lime. In many cases even C.I.E. are not able to provide lorries to haul it. I think that is a most unfortunate thing. When people are inclined to use ground limestone, no obstacle should be placed in their way. Many lime producers have lorries or could hire lorries outside C.I.E. and these lorries would be prepared to go into the farms where C.I.E. will not go.

One of the difficulties confronting farmers in many parts of the country to-day is that C.I.E. lorries will not leave the well-surfaced road. They dump the lime there and the farmer has to get his tractor, or perhaps his horse and cart and haul it some distance to his land. There may be no spreader in the district and the lime puts an extra burden on the farmer. It does more than that—it gives him very little encouragement to use lime.

The Minister should consider that point carefully—the distribution of lime. C.I.E. have had a monopoly in the haulage of lime for seven or eight years and in my opinion they have not justified that monopoly. The time has come when the distribution of lime should be left in the hands of the producers, first of all, if they are in a position or have the capital to get their own lorries. They should not be prohibited in any way from going out to haul their own limestone just as any ordinary businessman in a wholesale or retail business has the right to put his own lorries on the road to carry his merchandise. The same should apply to the lime producer. If the lime producer has not the capital, or is not prepared to go into it in a big way, there should be nothing to prevent him from getting outside tractors or lorries to haul that lime for farmers because it is most necessary that every facility be given if we want to increase agricultural production. No obstacle should be placed in the way of those who are anxious to do it.

It is admitted, I think, that the use of ground limestone is one of the great methods by which we can increase agricultural production here. That has been amply demonstrated wherever it has been used properly. I am glad to see we have been expanding in that direction.

There is one item—K (4), grants to certain rural organisations—on which I should like to comment. I understood from the Minister that arrangements had been made for the Irish Countrywomen's Association, Macra na Feirme and Muintir na Tíre to get an annual subscription—shall I say— from the Grant Counterpart Fund.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, no.

Mr. Walsh

Provision was made, I understand——

Mr. Dillon

No, one grant of £10,000.

Mr. Walsh

One grant of £10,000?

Mr. Dillon

I think so—for each of them.

Mr. Walsh

It says here it provides "for issues as shown all of which will be ultimately recoverable from Grant Counterpart Funds", and that is arising out of a subsidiary agreement dated the 16th January, 1956.

Mr. Dillon

I think that was an advance pending the availability of the full £10,000.

Mr. Walsh

This is an advance?

Mr. Dillon

On the £10,000.

Mr. Walsh

It is not an annual sum; it is just an advance in respect of £10,000 that they are entitled to get from the Grant Counterpart Fund?

Mr. Dillon

Yes, that is so.

Mr. Walsh

That is all right. Can the Minister not recoup this loss?

Mr. Dillon

I think it is recouped. I think I said that.

Mr. Walsh

I am sorry.

Mr. Dillon

This will be ultimately recoverable from the Grant Counterpart Fund.

Mr. Walsh

That is all right. Has the Minister any answer to the failure of receipts, under the heading of Appropriations-in-Aid, to come to the figure he estimated he would get last year? What about Athenry? Three colleges have lost £10,000.

Mr. Dillon

I think the Deputy is making a mistake. If he looks at the original Estimate, he will find there was a provision there for expected Appropriations-in-Aid from Athenry of £22,500. These appropriations have fallen short of what was anticipated.

Mr. Walsh

By £6,000?

Mr. Dillon

By £6,000, but if the Deputy will listen, I will tell him why. As the Deputy knows, we make use of a good deal of live stock for experimental work in these stations. For instance, we test the relative advantage of fattening Shorthorn, Aberdeen Angus and Friesian bulls, and various methods of fattening pigs and so forth. Therefore, we buy what we expect will be uneconomic live stock in order to expose them to experimental treatment. Therefore, we sometimes have to sell them at a loss. A good deal of experimental work is proceeding all the time, the ultimate cost of which is difficult to forecast at the beginning of the year.

Mr. Walsh

I thought the loss might have been due to the abandonment of cattle in order to make room for the white turkey. I am glad now that it was not. There seems to be a considerable loss under the Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Acts, Pigs and Bacon Acts, Slaughter of Cattle and Sheep Acts, etc. What does the loss of £30,000 indicate? Does it indicate that the number of carcases going through the factories is less than last year?

Mr. Dillon

Undoubtedly, there has been a decline in the number.

Mr. Walsh

Yes. That accounts for the loss of £30,000.

Mr. Dillon

For a substantial portion. There are more cattle going out on the hoof and less on the hook.

Mr. Walsh

Would the Minister not think it should be the other way around, having regard to the fact that carcase meat going out is in a more advantageous position than cattle going out on the hoof?

Mr. Dillon

As the Deputy knows, it is a free trade.

Mr. Walsh

The advantage lies with the carcase meat rather than with the other. Yet we have a reduction in the number of cattle going through the factories. It is very easy to understand that the number of pigs going through the factories diminished over the past six or eight months. Having regard to the small levies on cattle and pigs, £30,000 is a very considerable sum.

The Minister is seeking £34,770 and I have no objection to his getting it, but I should like to see him use it to the best advantage. I am glad that one or two things are coming along— the ground limestone and the farm buildings schemes. There are many other schemes that could well be improved, schemes such as seed testing and the propagating of seeds. I know very little about this experimental station at Glenamoy, County Mayo, but I expect other speakers will deal with that. Whether it is of greater benefit to the country than the grass meal factory, I do not know. However, I do not object to the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Hughes

I should like to compliment the Minister on his approach to a seed production farm here. I think such a farm is very necessary. We have been doing a little in that direction for some years. It is necessary to have a farm completely set aside for this kind of work. There is great scope for the production of pedigree seed which was neglected over the years.

There is in operation for a few years now a scheme in connection with the production of certified wheat seed, and, without doubt, it has been very successful. According as this develops in other branches, I hope the producers will get the necessary protection. There was a problem this year in that there seemed to be a big amount of imported seed wheat. To a certain extent, that is upsetting the production of certified seed by people in the business. They are somewhat worried that they may find it difficult to find a market for the amount produced this year. It is definitely good seed and has been going very well. A good amount of it is being produced.

I hope this farm will go ahead with the production of oats and other seed varieties as well, so that we may find ourselves very shortly able to produce all of our own foundation stock and not have to go outside for any of it. That would be very useful and something for the farmer interested in the production of certified or pedigree seed.

It is very encouraging to see the big expansion in the farm building schemes. There is no doubt that this scheme has done a tremendous lot of good. It has been availed of to the fullest extent. Going through the country, one cannot but be impressed by the number of haysheds erected. These are of great help and assistance to the farmers. Were it not for the grant and the inducement, the number of sheds erected would be far less. The same remarks apply to the farm building schemes generally.

Mention was made of the lime scheme and the abuse of the lime scheme, and Deputy Walsh referred to the fact that the Minister did not mention the year 1951. He fully realised that the scheme started in 1948. Of course it could not get into full production in two years. There were no grinding plants in the country in 1948 and these had to be established before production could begin.

Mr. Walsh

The company got going in six months.

Mr. Hughes

How would you get a dozen grinding plants up in six months?

Mr. Walsh

They got going in six months.

Mr. Hughes

There were only four plants in the whole country that first year. That was the trouble; the farmers were prepared to use the ground limestone but it was not available. There is still a certain amount of dissatisfaction about the scheme, particularly about the transport. It seems very unfair that those people concerned with the production of ground limestone are not allowed to use their own transport; they have to go along and employ C.I.E. to do it for them in the case of practically all the ground limestone that is produced. A big number of extra lorries are now available which means that C.I.E. are able to make better arrangements for the transport of ground limestone. Consequently I do not think that the transport problem is now as serious as it was.

However, I think this 40-mile limit attached to the scheme gives rise to a certain amount of overlapping, especially in areas where the grinding plants are not sufficiently far apart; you will have lorries from one area coming into another district with consequent overlapping and the possibility of a wastage of a grant allowed for transport. I think it would be wise if that question of overlapping were looked into with a view to its elimination. The amount of money now necessary properly to run this scheme is naturally very big as the scheme expands. It is very encouraging, of course, to see the expansion that has developed in this scheme. There is no doubt that such an expansion will add considerably to the country's agricultural output.

Mr. O'Hara

I am particularly interested in the peat land experimental plot in Glenamoy, County Mayo. It seems that after an exhaustive examination by Min Fheir Teoranta it was proposed to operate a grass meal industry in that area. From the report, the prospects of success of that proposed industry were very poor indeed. It is my belief that these conclusions were correct. Some years ago, when offals were very scarce, I stocked a quantity of imported grass meal and I remember distinctly that it was impossible to convince the farmers, particularly in the West of Ireland, that there was any advantage in the use of this commodity. I felt at the time that, first of all, there was a prejudice against the use of this grass meal in the West of Ireland. I do not want to condemn its production, but I do feel that it would be very difficult to sell it within the country.

When you are faced with the situation where you are obliged to sell such a commodity on a foreign market you are up against many difficulties, one of which is that you are competing against people engaged in that business for a long number of years and who have considerable experience in that particular field. In its production here you would incur many additional overheads and it would be almost impossible for the industry to become a success. I sincerely hope that the development of land which is described as "blanket bog" will be a success because its operation would involve a part of this country where you have very poor land and where you have vast areas of this blanket bog. I fully appreciate that such a scheme would be experimental and for that reason I sincerely hope it will be successful. I am glad to note from the Minister's statement this evening that, far from the position being that which we were told it was in Mayo during the elections—that people were becoming unemployed as a result of the change in Government—the reverse is the case.

The Minister stated here this evening that already there has been an increase in the number of people employed in County Mayo and that this number will be substantially increased with the passage of time, due to the change in Government. That is heartening news to people like Deputy Lindsay and myself who are conversant with the circumstances and who appreciate that so many of our people have to migrate from these areas. The Forestry Branch of the Minister's Department have recently undertaken certain work and I am hopeful that these operations will be successful. They cover quite a wide area in a part of the country where up to now very little afforestation work was undertaken. I believe that at one time this area had large tracts of forests. With proper treatment and working, I have no doubt that the re-afforestation programmes planned for these areas will meet with the success they deserve. We have much modern technical advice now and together with that there is a ready market for thinnings and so forth. All that should ensure that a bigger number of people will be kept in employment than would have been the case under the grass meal proposal.

On this question of ground limestone, I feel that very little should have been said on the subject by the Opposition Deputies. I well remember the scheme in operation under the Fianna Fáil Government when local committees of agriculture were subsidising the production of burnt lime. The supply was wholly inadequate to meet the requirements of the farmers. We heard Deputy Walsh here this evening—and I have a lot of respect for the Deputy —criticising the ground limestone scheme. It was very foolish to introduce that subject at all because there was not a ground limestone plant, good, bad or indifferent, until the first inter-Party Government took office.

Mr. Walsh

On a point of order, does the Deputy know what he is talking about?

Mr. Dillon

He does and he is perfectly right.

Mr. O'Hara

I know quite well——

Mr. Walsh

I can take him to where there were two or three——

Mr. Dillon

Do not let him bluff you.

Mr. O'Hara

I have definitely told the truth: there were no ground limestone plants, good, bad or indifferent, in this country and I can tell the former Minister for Agriculture that the first ground limestone plant in this country had to carry on for quite a while by overdraft accommodation because of the fact that at that time the present Minister was trying to sell a new product.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy knows that is not so.

Mr. O'Hara

I know from the directors of these companies that for a year or two after we took over great difficulties were faced in the production of ground limestone.

Mr. Walsh

They had been in existence for ten years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of policy does not arise on this Vote.

Mr. O'Hara

There was no ground limestone in this country, good, bad or indifferent. The people who were engaged in this in the early stages carried on under great difficulties. They told me they had to carry on with very substantial overdraft accommodation. In fact, they were almost facing bankruptcy. At that time, our present Minister, Deputy Dillon, was shouting himself hoarse all over the country, appealing to the people to use ground limestone. It is not easy to sell these new projects to Irish people. There were no ground limestone plants in this country. They were new and it was no easy job to sell that article at the time. That is the true position and, whether Deputy Walsh likes it or not, he cannot get away from the facts.

We all have had lime kilns on our small holdings of land. There were lime kilns scattered throughout the length and breadth of the country. Some of them were hundreds of years old. They were there in the corners of the fields. People had no other means of producing lime. I have often seen people working at them. First, they had to get the stones and then they had to start breaking them. After that, the stones were put in the kiln and burned. If Deputy Walsh suggests that that was the type of lime scheme that was capable of meeting the needs of the Irish farmers, he is fooling himself and nobody else. The Irish people appreciate that fact.

The present Minister for Agriculture initiated this scheme in 1948. Now, as a result of his efforts, he can come here and tell us that we are around the 1,000,000-ton figure at the present time. That is heartening news. Personally, I am very glad to hear it. There was no reliable source from which lime could be produced, except by way of the crushing system.

On the question of transport, no doubt there was some overlapping in areas: I have seen some of it myself. I suppose that is inevitable in a big business, such as the lime business is at present. Generally speaking, I am convinced that the scheme is working very well and very satisfactorily. To-day, as you travel along the road, you can see lorry loads of ground limestone being hauled into the country areas and mountainous districts where it is most needed, where they are trying to rear young stores and where the demand is greatest for it. They are sure that the supplies are there.

With regard to the point made by some Deputy about allowing people to use their own form of transport, I think there is no objection to that. If they own their own tractors and trailers, I think there is no objection to their taking limestone from the plant.

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy is now demonstrating how little he knows about ground limestone.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh is very cross this evening.

Mr. Walsh

Not a bit of it.

Mr. Dillon

The Kerry air must not have agreed with him.

Mr. O'Hara

Deputy Walsh's speech this evening was a very poor attempt on the part of a man who held office as Minister for Agriculture for a few years. He picked on a few trivial items. Any young Deputy new to the House would have made a better case against the present Minister on that particular item than Deputy Walsh did. He was very foolish to introduce it at all. If flexibility in the matter of transport could be brought about, it would be quite desirable. If some people feel they have suitable means of transporting limestone themselves, it would be no harm, in my opinion, to allow them to transport their own needs.

I am glad to hear about the seed-testing station which has been established somewhere in the vicinity of Lucan. It is most desirable and important that we should know everything that is to be known about seed which is intended to produce a crop. It is important that we should know whether or not it is a healthy seed and also the percentage of germination. I fear we are coming a little bit late with that scheme, but it is better late than never. If we can establish a position in this country whereby we shall be able to procure good reliable seed for our farmers, then it is a step in the right direction, and a very important step indeed.

Reference has been made to the farm buildings scheme. I would urge on the Minister the importance of increasing the grants for this purpose. In my view, the time has come when these grants should be increased. I am aware that a lot of good work has been done under this scheme and no doubt the more wealthy farmers, at least, will be able to continue to do useful and important work under it. However, we have a large number of small farmers in our community who have not sufficient capital of their own to provide these buildings for themselves. I have in mind in particular the small farmers in the congested areas. It is very necessary that the Minister should make increased grants available to the poorer farmers. The cost of materials has gone up in recent times, as also has the cost of labour, to a certain extent. The Minister should give some increases in these grants, particularly in the congested areas.

The bringing of water to outhouses on our farms—outhouses such as byres —is very important. If, with the passing of time, we want to attain the high standard which has been reached by countries, such as Denmark and Holland, we shall have to have the water laid on in our farm buildings. There again, the Minister should consider the advisability of further increasing the grants where water is being provided for such buildings.

Mr. Sheldon

I shall begin by congratulating the Minister on the amount of information that is given on the face of the Supplementary Estimate. Only too often, Supplementary Estimates seem to be designed to give the minimum of information. In this case, at least a fairly clear picture can be obtained on the face of it.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy and I were both Chairmen of Public Accounts Committees for a considerable period.

Mr. Sheldon

I am glad to know that the Minister remembers that. Sometimes when people become Ministers, they are inclined to forget such things.

I shall just take the details as they appear. The first one deals with the additional amount for seed-testing propagation by the bringing in of this new farm. That is a very welcome development. The only thing I should like to urge on the Minister in that connection is that I do not think enough is done by the Department with relation to potato oats. Potato oats are of particular importance to the three Ulster counties.

The fact that these other varieties in the South do undoubtedly yield very highly tends, in my opinion, to have the great advantages of potato oats overlooked. In the North of Ireland, a considerable amount of development has taken place. They have bred strains there which are very important and which, furthermore, are a great improvement on those which were there before. I think we might do something ourselves in that regard. There is this to be remembered: the potato oat has the great advantage that it gives a very high percentage in milling because of its thin coat and, as far as County Donegal is concerned, I do not think the other varieties are really very useful because they are already over-husked to begin with and, in our northern climate, the percentage seems to get worse. That has been our experience, anyway. I do not know if it is the general experience but, from that point of view, I think some further benefit might be given to pedigree potato oats.

With regard to the Grants-in-Aid to these three bodies from the American Grant Counterpart Special Account, I take it that the sums here are largely dictated by the fact that we are coming towards the end of the financial year and the Minister and his Department are naturally cautious in handing out large sums under Grants-in-Aid, which cannot be re-surrendered. I think that is wise and I do not at all want to suggest that any of these very estimable bodies would show any slackness in their accounting system, but they are, shall we say, a bit out-of-the-run as compared with the type of body which has formerly been in receipt of a Grant-in-Aid.

Mr. Dillon

It is purely a matter that the American authorities decided to give each of these bodies £10,000. These bodies, for their own good reason, wanted to spend a bit of that before the formalities were completed and they asked us would we advance them £1,000 or so, and we simply obliged them. So far as I know, that is the whole story.

Mr. Sheldon

Seeing this is an express wish on the part of the donors, I take it that the ordinary precautions which are taken with regard to a Grant-in-Aid do not necessarily apply in these particular cases: that is to say, the accounts, of course, are not audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but some check is usually made on their system of accountancy to make sure the Grants-in-Aid are, in fact, properly applied. But I think this is a very special case and that might not arise at all.

With regard to sub-head M (8), other Deputies have already mentioned this business of water supplies and the Minister has indicated, of course, that where the eradication of bovine T.B. comes in, the scheme for supplying water to cow byres is open to all applicants. I would suggest that is not going far enough. I cannot see any good reason why the scheme should not be open to everyone who wishes to put water into a byre. I believe that, in advance of the eradication scheme, it would do a great deal to help.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy not think it is a good thing that one should want to participate in the bovine T.B. eradication scheme?

Mr. Sheldon

I quite agree, but there are other people with byres for other than cows. I think it is a very good development. Actually, I have water, so I am not at cross-purposes with the Minister, but, it has been such a success, I think the Department would be doing great good if they encouraged everybody to install a water supply in the byres, even where it was not for just cows; water can do a bullock an awful lot of good, too. Apart from that, I think the scheme can help towards a better system of agriculture because it makes for a good deal of ease in work. One of the causes of the flight from the land as far as farm work is concerned, is the prospect of week-end working, and nothing makes week-end working so simple as water laid on.

A special grant should be given for silos. As far as I know, at the moment, the grant is calculated on the basis of the superficial area, or something like that, of concrete. The basis of calculation is a bit out of date to begin with, but, apart from that, I think a special effort might very well be made to encourage the use of silage. That has been done in other parts of this island.

Mr. Dillon

I think these grants are available for pit or trench silos.

Mr. Sheldon

Yes, but I think they are at the ordinary rate of calculation for concrete work. I should like to see a special grant made over and above that to encourage the making of silage. That has been done in another part of this island and it is having most remarkable results. It has been taken up with great enthusiasm. I think it would be a very useful development here, too.

On the ground limestone subsidy, I think people are sometimes inclined to forget that this is a payment for transport and not a subsidy for ground limestone, as such. One difficulty crops up in regard to this, and that is that there is a rush period—in fact, there are two rush periods in the year—and transport is inclined to break down. My area is not open to the beneficent efforts of C.I.E—they have not yet stretched up there—and I cannot say that I am very sorry because we have a reasonably good transport system in relation to lime; but there is the difficulty that, especially in the light of very recent legislation, there may be a shortage of transport.

Normally, each year steps are taken at harvest to permit the carriage of wheat to the mills and exemptions are given to enable that to be done swiftly. I think there is a good case with regard to ground limestone in respect of certain limited periods in the year. It is a great advantage, when sowing out hay or pasture, to have the ground limestone applied at the same time as the seeds are sown. That is the sort of thing everyone is keen to do. But it is not always possible to get the lime quickly enough because everybody wants it within the same two to three weeks roughly. It does quite well to wait until the autumn, but on very sour land, where ground limestone is most needed, one may get a bad take of clover seed and by the time you put on the ground limestone in the autumn, the clover seed has germinated and died. It is very important, therefore, to get it on in the spring, and, where there is difficulty in getting enough ground limestone out, the transport question should be reconsidered, with a view to giving exemptions to permit the hiring of lorries which would not ordinarily be permitted.

I think there is something to be said, too, for tightening up on distribution in the sense that lorries seem to cross from different plants. How far the Department can clamp down on that, I am not quite sure. I think there has been an improvement as far as my own area is concerned and one will not now see lorries coming long distances, but it is not so very long since they did come long distances; it was an obvious loss to the State that this should happen and I hope the Minister and his Department will pursue that and ensure that no ground limestone is taken one mile further than it need be. There should be no question of ground limestone from one plant passing ground limestone from another plant, or coming into its effective area, where that can be avoided.

Mr. Dillon

There is something to be said for the preservation of some degree of competition, is there not?

Mr. Sheldon

Competition between what?

Mr. Dillon

Between the lime grinders.

Mr. Sheldon

I am afraid I cannot see where the competition comes in.

Mr. Dillon

One can get lime from some grinders now as low as 11/- a ton.

Mr. Sheldon

I must say that degree of competition has not arisen in my area. That is worth looking into.

Mr. Dillon

It is a salutary thing, is it not?

Mr. Sheldon

It is, but the cost to the State can be very great.

Mr. Dillon

I agree it should not be allowed to go too high, but I think there is something to be said for preserving some degree of competition.

Mr. Sheldon

I have seen lorries coming from County Mayo away over to North Donegal.

Mr. Dillon

That has all finished.

Mr. Sheldon

That sort of thing disturbed me. I do not know how far it exists now.

Mr. Dillon

It has stopped.

Mr. Sheldon

That is an advantage. These are a few of the things I wanted to mention. I had queries on deficiencies on Appropriations-in-Aid but Deputy Walsh has already raised them and the Minister has answered them. I take it that, in regard to these deficiencies on the agricultural stations, there is no question at all of a reduction in the receipts.

Mr. Dillon

They are not deficiencies.

Mr. Sheldon

I know they are not deficiencies. They are merely because the income is short of the expenditure.

Mr. Dillon

Exactly.

Mr. Sheldon

There is only one other thing, that is, that the Estimate itself has a misprint in it, I think.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, dear!

Mr. Sheldon

With regard to No. 17 of the Appropriations-in-Aid, in reference to revenue from agricultural loans, there is a reference to sub-head M (4), whereas in this the reference is to M (3). It is on the back page of the Supplementary Estimate. I take it that M (3) is correct and that M (4) was a misprint? The Minister will see on the last page of the Supplementary Estimate: "Additional Receipts under No. 17", and the reference to sub-head M (3), whereas, in the original instrument, the reference is to M (4). I think M (4) is a mistake. I should like to be clear on that. Those are the only points I wanted to raise.

Mr. Dillon

There was a little hitch here in which the printer and everybody else was involved, but we have remedied it in the Supplementary Estimate; and I need hardly tell the Deputy that the hitch did not occur in the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Corry

What I have to say on this Estimate here is not in criticism of the Minister as such. I am calling attention here to this Estimate of £80,000 for ground limestone, and if I might elaborate a little on what Deputy Sheldon said a while ago, I would suggest to the Minister that it is not competition exactly. It is the lack of machinery, spreading machinery mainly, that causes the Irish Sugar Company to deliver limestone down as far as Ballycotton and down around Aghada and to pass two other limestone works on the road down. Farmers are anxious to get their lime out and spread, if possible, by the one machine, so that it will not be heeled on the side of the road, left there for a couple of days, shovelled into the machine, taken away and spread afterwards. The Minister knows how the old farmer feels when, in the month of March, he comes to the last bunch of hay. I feel that way about this lime subsidy at the present moment. I feel we are coming to the last bunch of hay and that we should be more careful. I got figures from the Minister here in reply to questions that I asked yesterday and I admit they have me nearly beaten. I will have to ask you for more next week to find out where exactly I stand. But I would suggest to the Minister that C.I.E. should be paid at the same rate as that at which the ordinary haulier is prepared to draw and should not be paid more.

Now, on those figures, the ordinary haulier in 1955-56 drew 302,500 tons of lime. The ordinary haulier is the man owning a limestone plant and having a couple of lorries of his own. We want the competition and I think the Minister should recommend a little bit of competition also, even if that competition is with the C.I.E. I do not think I would be very far wrong in saying—although the Minister states here that the amounts paid to the haulier by C.I.E. are not available in his Department—that, of the £199,910 paid last year to C.I.E. in respect of hauling done, not by C.I.E. but by the owners of ground limestone plants in their own lorries, £30,000 was collared by C.I.E., and that the limestone hauliers only got £169,000.

The Government decided, for good or ill, when they got this grant—this grant from the American Government to help the farmers out with lime—to put it into transport, that it should be devoted to transporting entirely. The farmer pays for the lime, pays for the spreading, and the haulier hauls, and I suggest to the Minister that that is money of which we should be very careful. That money was given, not to subsidise C.I.E., but for the benefit of the farmers and, if C.I.E. are collecting from 12½ to 20 per cent. at present on 302,500 tons of ground limestone, I think it should stop. I will be quite frank about it. I think the owner of a ground limestone plant should be paid directly by the Government, the same as the Irish Sugar Company are paid.

The Minister will remember the arguments we had here about the Irish Sugar Company on this matter before —the spreading of ground limestone. The Irish Sugar Company seem to have hauled a very considerable amount of lime since-practically 1,000,000 tons of it—and on that 1,000,000 tons, I suggest to the Minister that they saved this lime fund, as we will call it, £200,000. There is £200,000 more in it to-day than there would be, if they had to haul it and be paid through C.I.E. I suggest that the farmers cannot afford to lose money in that manner and, on the figures I got, C.I.E. have hauled altogether 2,356,000 tons of lime. Anybody who is mathematically minded can make up 12½ per cent. of that, and he can add to that 564,910 tons hauled by the owners of ground limestone plants in 1953-54, 1954-55 and 1955-56. Between those years they hauled 564,910 tons of lime. Apparently it paid them to haul that lime and deliver it at the price they got finally from C.I.E. for that haulage.

Why should C.I.E. get anything from 12½ per cent. to 20 per cent. on the haulage of that lime, lime that they did not even see and which the owner of the limestone plant put into his lorry and delivered in the farmer's yard? Is it not a deliberate robbery of this fund, which was put there for the farmers, for the purpose of subsidising a State subsidised industry, because that is what C.I.E. is.

It is not by way of criticism of the Minister that I say that, because when Deputy Walsh was Minister the same game was going on. It is high time to end it. The Minister will be telling us next week how much is left in that fund and he knows as well as I do that we are on the last bunch of hay. I do not want to bandy words in this House: "It was we started this, that or the other." Nevertheless, the Minister knows that the Ballybeg quarry was purchased by the Irish Sugar Company in 1947, that the ground limestone works there were started before he got that seat over there. I do not know what kudos he expects to get out of an argument that he was sitting there when it started. In fact, I can claim to be the pioneer of it.

Mr. Dillon

I was thinking there was some kind of a sting in the tail of it.

Mr. Corry

I was chairman of the Beetgrowers' Association and I think every credit is due to Deputy Con Meaney, as he was then, and myself for the work that was done——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not seem to be relevant on this Vote.

Mr. Corry

It was very largely dealt with a while ago by Deputy O'Hara and we had any amount of "Hear, hears!" from the Minister when Deputy O'Hara mentioned it. We all know the difficulty of inducing farmers to do something new. For instance, within the boundaries of Deputy O'Hara's county there was plenty of lime being produced by the Irish Sugar Company. The people would not take it, not even in Galway. We put up a proposition to General Costello at the suggestion of the Galwaymen that if he dried it and put it in bags they would take it then. He had it dried at the cost of £1 a ton and when Deputy Lehane, myself and others went up to General Costello four or five months afterwards, he eat the face off us, saying there were so many bags of this lime lying around and no one to take it. We took an order for it, brought it down to Cork and paid for it. I was accused by the Minister afterwards of getting it for nothing. There were nine acres of this stuff, about seven feet high spread out there in one big field and nobody to take it. I saw them afterwards scraping that field and taking away what was left of it when they got to know its value. We all know the land of the country does require this commodity and that we will never be in a position to afford to put out enough of it.

Can the Minister give me any sane reason why he should pay 20/3 plus 5 per cent. to C.I.E., and 19/5 to the Irish Sugar Company for doing the one job, 1/4 a ton of a difference. The Minister has the figures there and if he will follow down the list for transport from 46 to 50 miles——

Mr. Dillon

What is the average amount per ton spent by C.I.E.?

Mr. Corry

I am not going into average amounts because I know what happens in those cases. Let me put it this way. If my man down in Carrig-twohill was allowed purchase a lorry spreader, the Minister would escape a whole lot of that 46 to 50 mile game and I know he would also escape the 41 to 45 miles that I have down here in my list. The only reason you have the Irish Sugar Company coming down from Ballybeg, passing down to the ground limestone plants in Carrigtwohill and going down below Midleton with the lime is that the farmer wants it. Why not let the lorry pull into the field and spread the lime in one operation instead of having the lime hauled to the side of the road, shovelled in and delivered afterwards? If we had a little bit of common sense between the Department, C.I.E. and the owners of the ground limestone plants we would save a lot of money. It does not say that because we get a present of money that it should be squandered in that manner.

A fortnight ago one of those ground limestone plant owners came up here and we went over to General Costello to discuss that particular matter. We were convinced that if we got a lorry spreader all the areas within, say, ten miles of the ground limestone plant could be done with that spreader, thus saving a lot of money in transportation. General Costello was prepared to sell one or two of them to that ground limestone plant owner but, when it came as far as C.I.E. and the Minister's Department, it was knocked on the head. I do not know why and I suggest that the public are entitled to know.

The Minister knows that there is about enough left in the fund to last another 12 months and that is why I said we are on the last bunch of hay. Judging by the manoeuvring I saw here of diving into other funds here and there, wherever they can collar something, I think I can say you will find the Government very slow to continue a subsidy out of State funds. Whatever Government is in, there is difficulty in getting money and I suggest that we should be more careful of it. There is no justification in the world for having down here 20/9 a ton for C.I.E. That is plus 5 per cent.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already given these figures.

Mr. Corry

There is no justification for having that sum or for having C.I.E. hauling lime distances of 40 to 60 miles. There is a ground limestone plant in the Bandon area. That plant should supply the whole of West Cork. That ground limestone plant was in operation when the American grant money came and they were in the same difficulty as the Irish Sugar Company were in. Because the Irish Sugar Company fought it out, they are being paid direct but the Aherlow man is being paid through C.I.E. and C.I.E. extract 12½ per cent. of the money for signing the cheque.

These are facts. It is not C.I.E.'s money. It is not money of the Department of Industry and Commerce. It is money that is the property of the Irish farmers, given to them by the American Government. No Government is justified in using that money to subsidise any Government-owned concern. The money is not theirs. It is the farmers' money. As far as I can gather from the figures, C.I.E. have drawn about £300,000 of that money in the 12½ per cent. That is what they got over what others are prepared to do it for.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy would say anything.

Mr. Corry

I am giving facts. I challenge the Minister to deny them. I looked to the Minister for the figures and the Minister told me they were not available. Perhaps he may have them now. His colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, at three o'clock one day last week had not certain figures but he had them after half past ten.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Corry

Perhaps the Minister may have them now so that we may hear the amount of loot collected by C.I.E. in this manner.

A Deputy

A strong word.

Mr. Corry

Facts. The Irish Sugar Company collected, in 1953-54, £157,000; in 1954-55, £208,000; in 1955-56, £199,910 for lime they did not draw, for lime they did not see, and they paid out of that money the owner of the limestone plant who hauled that lime in his own lorry to the farmer who ordered it and then they made their deduction. I asked the Minister for the amount paid to the Sugar Company. The last figure, I was told, was not available in his Department. Surely C.I.E. would give him that figure, or were they ashamed to give it?

These are the things I am anxious to know. I do not think any Government is justified in expending money, which is the property of the agricultural community, in subsidising anybody else. I do not wish at this stage to carry that any further. When I get the answers to all the questions I have put down to the Minister, I will know where we are. I got two pages of figures. I did not go to the university and one would need to be a master of mathematics to poke anything out of those figures by the time the Department had finished with them. I suppose that is in the game. I take it that way.

I should like to know from the Minister when he will extend the scheme for the eradication of bovine T.B. to Cork County.

Mr. Dillon

It is operating in Cork County at present.

Mr. Corry

I beg the Minister's pardon. I want a scheme as applied to Clare.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, an intensive scheme.

Mr. Corry

I want a scheme as applied to Sligo and as will be applied, probably, to Monaghan. I want to know when that scheme will come to Cork. The dairying counties—there are only seven or eight in the Twenty-Six—should have first claim on the scheme. The dairying counties, where calves are produced and where there is the highest number of dairy cows, should have the first of that scheme. What is happening at present is that the pioneer is going ahead. He comes in and has his cattle tested. He finds that he has six reactors. They go into the salesyard at the next fair and are passed on to somebody else. A farmer runs the risk, if he buys cattle, of getting these cast animals. They are legally sold. That is why I would urge the Minister to extend the scheme at least to the dairying counties.

Mr. Donegan

I welcome the Supplementary Estimate because running right through it is what has been characteristic of the Minister's work in both his terms of office, namely, the injection of capital into the land of Ireland. Every item of this Estimate is calculated to develop agriculture. That is very essential after 700 years of oppression, after the Civil War, after the economic war and after a war in which advancement in agriculture was necessarily retarded. I think the fact that there is a Supplementary Estimate before the House to-day is due to the man who now sits in the Minister's chair. Deputy Corry asked why do we say: "Who started what?" He has only to go through the Supplementary Estimate to see who started what. The Minister who sits with us to-night is the man who started the ground limestone scheme. As well as that, the Minister is the man who started the farm building scheme; the man who started soil testing; the man who started the bovine T.B. eradication scheme; and the man who made arrangements whereby any farmer in Ireland to-day, for the payment of 1/- per acre, can get his land totally fertilised. That is our answer to the economic war and to all the troubles that came before and after it.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Who started the economic war?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies may not discuss the economic war on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Donegan

It is a pity that there is not a sub-head in the Estimate for the economic war because that is the very thing we are fighting to-day. Deputy Corry gave us a long list of figures with regard to payments made to C.I.E. and goods handled by the Irish Sugar Company, and when the Minister asked him a fair question as to what was the average payment per ton to C.I.E., he said he did not want to hear it. I hope Deputy Corry will sit with us for a long time, but if he left us to-morrow, he would prefer to come back to this House as a poltergeist and turn up chairs and tables rather than go to Heaven. That is because he is a mischievous spirit.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss Deputy Corry on this Estimate.

Mr. P.J. Burke

This is the holy season of Lent.

Mr. Donegan

True. Mention is made in this Estimate of payments to certain rural organisations. These payments are being made from the American Grant Counterpart Fund. It is very important that these organisations should be kept out of politics and it would also be wise for any politician to keep his nose out of their affairs. I cannot allow this Estimate to pass without a reference to the conduct of the Party opposite during the last three days. Yesterday morning the Irish Press was published and it was twice its normal size——

Mr. J. Lynch

That has nothing to do with this Party.

Mr. Donegan

On the second page of the Irish Press yesterday morning, a statement bringing the N.F.A. in behind the I.C.M.S.A. in the fight for a higher price for milk, delayed for two days after it was printed by all other newspapers——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How can that question be discussed on the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Donegan

I believe it can, because I am going to refer very briefly to these organisations which are mentioned in this Estimate and the welfare of which I have very much at heart. It seems to me that there is a danger that these organisations will be dragged into politics.

Mr. J. Lynch

You are doing your best to drag them in.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The debate on a Supplementary Estimate, as the Deputy is aware, is not so wide as the debate on the main Estimate which will come up shortly. The Deputy should confine his remarks to the matters contained in the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Donegan

These organisations received a grant from the American Grant Counterpart Fund because they were non-political. In yesterday's Irish Press, there were articles by Dr. Juan Greene, Mr. Seán Healy and Mr. Louis Smith and the writers of these articles were not aware they were going to be published that day.

Mr. J. Lynch

On a point of order, the Deputy is making an allegation against a newspaper or a company that it printed articles from certain contributors without consulting them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order on this Estimate to discuss the Irish Press.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Leader of the Opposition not the controlling director of the Irish Press? It is certainly his propaganda sheet and surely we are entitled to refer to it. It is the Pravda of the Fianna Fáil Party.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate about the Irish Press.

Mr. Dillon

There is plenty in the Irish Press about what is in this Supplementary Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not give any justification to Deputies to discuss the Irish Press and Irish Press policy on this Estimate.

Mr. Donegan

The attempt that was made has failed and I may add that it was a rotten attempt. No one of the four writers who wrote those articles knew that they were going to be printed on that day.

Mr. J. Lynch

That allegation is completely unfounded.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is right.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order in discussing these matters on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Donegan

The Deputy apologises to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and will be in order henceforth. The injection of capital into the land of Ireland was neglected until February of 1948. But for that, I would not stand here now and I am very proud to be standing here now. None of these items that appear in the Supplementary Estimate would have appeared in it, if Fianna Fáil had remained in office because Deputy Lemass would have used the grant for some other purpose. I stand up here to congratulate the Minister and to hope that Fianna Fáil will, in future, desist from trying to pull all that is good in Irish life down to their level.

Mr. J. Lynch

A person in public life is supposed to be thick skinned, but the pharisaical efforts of Fine Gael Deputies to make themselves appear to be the saviours of the country would get under the hide of an elephant. They should realise that in so far as Fianna Fáil is an Opposition Party, and an Opposition to be taken into account, we enjoy the confidence of the Irish people.

Mr. Dillon

As an Opposition, yes.

Mr. J. Lynch

This kind of blather and throwing of mud, in the hope that some of it will cling, or that the people will believe some of it, is enough to get under anybody's skin. I rise, however, not so much to follow the line the last Deputy took, and I am vexed, as the Minister——

Mr. Dillon

What vexed you?

Mr. J. Lynch

These references to what Fianna Fáil has done, the low standard it was said it occupies in public life. I joined the Fianna Fáil Party and if I felt it aspired only to such low standards as have been attributed to it, I would leave it to-day. I am not putting myself on any high plane like Deputy Donegan; I am an ordinary Irishman, representing the ordinary Irish people, and so long as I can maintain a decent public standard, will be acceptable to Fianna Fáil and to the people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy now get back to the Estimate?

Mr. Carter

That technique has been followed over the years by the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

Listen to little Cupid coming out of his shell.

Mr. Carter

The Ballaghaderreen gutter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must not make such a remark in the House about a Minister. He must withdraw that remark.

Mr. Carter

I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch, on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. J. Lynch

I do not want to refer to Deputy Donegan's unfounded and unsustainable allegation, and I am sure that once he knows the facts, he will realise that whatever articles were contributed to the Irish Press were surely contributed with the consent and knowledge——

Mr. Donegan

On the day in question?

Mr. J. Lynch

I do not know what the day in question is or what the Deputy means. My interest in this Supplementary Estimate is to deal with the sub-head concerning the peatland experimental station at Glenamoy. I think this is the first intimation that has been given to this House as to what is to replace the activities of Min Fheir Teoranta in Glenamoy. It is timely; it is about time it happened, because we, at any rate, felt it was only the Minister's opposition to the Grass Meal Act that caused the close down of activities there.

In so far as the ultimate object of the original scheme is being carried out, I raise no objection to the change. The Minister has said that it is now to be known as the peatland reclamation scheme and that certain liming and manuring is being carried out, that afforestation is also being associated with the scheme, that 29 men were employed for agricultural purposes and 23 for forestry, and that some others will be employed. That is really the immediate object of the scheme, but not the ultimate one. The ultimate one is, of course, to see to what extent it will be possible to reclaim peatland and bogland, and so make it economic, make it of some value to the people in the West of Ireland, particularly in the Gaeltacht areas between the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht.

I am sorry that the scheme has been altered, because I feel that, as originally envisaged, it would have proved a success. Deputy O'Hara, in referring to it some time ago, said that as he as a merchant in the West of Ireland could not sell grass meal to the farmers, he felt the sale of grass meal to the farmers in the West of Ireland would not be possible; but, in the next breath, he complimented the Minister for Agriculture for persevering with the ground limestone scheme, even though we could not induce farmers to use ground limestone originally. Surely the same argument could have applied to the grass meal as apparently applied to the ground limestone? But that is not the main point. The scheme is now being run under the Department of Agriculture, and I feel that the board as set up, Min Fheir, Teoranta, would perhaps be the better organisation to carry out this bog reclamation, development and experiment. The Department of Agriculture, naturally, is diffused into certain sections and each section has its own responsibilities, but, as one approaches the top, there is a necessary bottleneck of administration. I am not criticising the set-up of the Department of Agriculture in any way—that is as it must be—but I feel if an autonomous board were given a particular job to do that it would have a greater degree of flexibility, and, because of that flexibility, would be able to bend its mind to the task in hand and would not be concerned with too many other ones and could ultimately produce better results.

Possibly, too, it would be better for other reasons. This is an experimental station. I have no doubt that the scheme in its present form will prove successful because there has been sufficient precedence of such successful schemes, but the problem will then arise—what next? The Department of Agriculture has entered into the bog and will they prove in other areas bogland can be successfully reclaimed for agricultural and afforestation purposes? I felt myself when Min Fheir, Teoranta, was set up that they, having first of all proved that bogland could be reclaimed and made to grow grass, could be made to produce crops and feed beasts, could go to other areas and immediately operate there. But in this case would the Minister tell us what, in the event—and I am sure it is in the certain event—of this scheme proving a success, is it proposed to do then? Will facilities be given to small farmers in the West of Ireland to reclaim small portions of bog, using the experience gained in this field?

I am not going into the merits of grass meal, but let me say again that, as a result of experience gained in Gowla and because Bord na Móna had acquired an immense tract of bogland in County Mayo, much of which they did not intend to use—it was because of these things, apart altogether from the economic necessity, that it was decided to take some of this bog from Bord na Móna, set up Min Fheir Teoranta and produce grass meal for sale. I was advised at the time that there was a good market for it at the price it was intended, or hoped it could be produced at from the bog at Glenamoy, but my real interest in the scheme was, because of my short experience of the West of Ireland, I felt that any rehabilitation of the people there must come from the land, in the first instance.

Good arable land, of course, is in such short supply that something of a bold nature would have to be done to make this land available to these people and there are many parts of the West of Ireland, particularly in the Gaeltacht areas where there are rather marginal bogs, neither good turf nor good land, and I felt if it could be proved that such land could be put into production for ordinary agricultural purposes and for afforestation purposes —to some extent, possibly—we would be going a good way towards solving the problem of uneconomic areas in the West of Ireland.

The other criticism I have of the change—apart altogether from the fact that the Department of Agriculture is inflexible, that the Department of itself may not be able to give the same attention to the purposes of the scheme as an independent board would—is that perhaps it might prove more costly under the Department. I do not know whether it will or not. I feel that it would because, again, these things are apt to take much longer when run by a huge Department such as the Department of Agriculture rather than by a small compact board of men whose one objective is the business in hand, to prove this peatland can be properly reclaimed and properly utilised for economic purposes later. I am glad that the scheme in its original objective is being pursued as the Minister said it would be. Except for the few minor misgivings mentioned, I am confident it will be successful and will be applied with profit to the uneconomic areas throughout the West.

Mr. Lindsay

I rise to support this Vote because I feel that by reason of the expansion shown in the Department and the consequent necessity for a Supplementary Estimate to meet that expansion, business is being done, work is being done, and more extensive plans are being conceived, designed and put into execution. It is for that reason primarily that I rise to support the Estimate and to congratulate the Minister and his Department officials, both in Dublin and in the various fields of activity throughout the country, on the broad scope of their work and the success attending that work which shows that this Supplementary Estimate was required.

Permit me to join with Deputies Sheldon and O'Hara in advocating that the grants for the farm building schemes should be increased. I would not worry so much about the high cost of labour as they did, because most people are able to supply their own labour, but certainly to meet the increasing cost of materials some increase would be desirable, if, of course, such an increase were consistent with the fiscal state of the Department and the country generally. One has to cut the cloth according to the measure. However, I have no doubt that, if such increase were possible, the Minister for Agriculture and his advisers would give the possibility of granting increases every sympathetic consideration.

A complaint was made by Deputy Corry about the non-application so far of the bovine T.B. scheme to County Cork, while he said, it applied to Clare. I cannot lay claim to be an expert in these matters and I do not know whether I am right or wrong when I say that these areas were selected because in them there is the least movement of cattle. Accordingly, there is a greater chance of a successful scheme where you have not that in-and-out movement of cattle which would be detrimental to the scheme's progress and the stabilisation of the cattle population upon which experiments could be made.

On the question of transport, the recommendations made by Deputy Sheldon certainly commend themselves to me—a relaxation of the stringent regulations which establish a monopoly of C.I.E. during the season when large numbers of people want ground limestone almost at the same time. Of course, there was an opportunity last week to have this aspect of the matter debated. An amendment could very easily have been brought in on the Road Transport Act if the people advocating this had either thought of it or thought it would work. In speeches by every Deputy, one invariably finds a particular local reason for his rising at all in support of a Supplementary Estimate, instead of waiting for the annual Estimate.

I feel I cannot allow this occasion to pass without comment, it being the first occasion upon which reference was made in any Estimate to the peatland experimental station at Glenamoy, in my constituency. I support this Estimate on that account and in rising to support that experiment, I have 34 excellent reasons for doing so. Last June, when it was announced that the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Branch of the Department of Lands, were going in on a joint effort to take over the lands acquired for the purpose of producing grass meal, there were 29 people employed there and it had been in operation for almost three years. In the words of a Fianna Fáil Deputy for the constituency on that day it was described, amongst other things, as a deserving project for a deserving people. Over three years it could employ 29 people.

Making full allowance for the transition period from last June and for the difficulties of such a change-over, there are now employed, between forestry and agriculture, at Glenamoy, 63 persons—34 more. I feel that our project is giving more benefits and conferring more advantages in a considerably lesser time to a deserving people whose plight cannot be exaggerated from the point of view of the shortage of land and the necessity to give them assistance and advice.

In June of last year, when it was first mooted that Min Fheir, Teoranta, Grass Meal, Limited, was to be wound up, and that the two Departments of Lands and Agriculture were to pool their efforts, an arrangement which has now resulted in the peatland experimental station, a wail of woe started with Fianna Fáil county council candidates right up along the line through their Deputies and ended in editorial keening in the Sunday Press. I am very proud that here to-night I can say, through the medium of this House, to the people of my constituency who were affected by this that they were right to support us when we made it an issue in the election, because, as against 29 employed, after three years, there are now 63 employed, with considerable expansion in the offing.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Lindsay

Deputy Jack Lynch has made the point that an autonomous board would be more flexible than either the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Lands, or both. I concede straight away the flexibility of such a board, but I cannot see, as a national or local advantage, the desirability of that flexibility in the channel of partiality for the employment of supporters and friends of the board only. If there was not a single person employed in Glenamoy other than the 29, the change-over would have been justified because there is now fair play for all sections, and, when anybody comes to look for work, his application is considered on the lines set out by the Department of Social Welfare as to whether he is married with a family, married without a family, single with dependents or single without dependents; he does not have to come now with letters of recommendation from the members of this autonomous board in order to get employment there.

In that particular part of Mayo, we know that bogland can be reclaimed, and we now have the advantage of being able to get the extra advisory service from the Department of Agriculture, on the one hand, and the necessary help that the Forestry Branch can give to the Department of Lands, on the other. I know several families in my constituency—and I know this will come as good news to the Minister for Lands—who would be quite content to have put at their disposal farms, portion of which were reclaimed bog. They would much prefer that than to have to go to Meath, Kildare or elsewhere. They want to be kept in their own environment. I am doing the best I can for Deputy Giles and the Minister for Lands. For those reasons I support this Vote, and, in doing so, I look forward to ever-increasing expansion of the peatland industry in Glenamoy; I look forward to its expansion under the impartial administration of the Departments interested. Once you have impartiality, you must succeed in having a drive that can be considered national and not sectional.

Mr. Allen

The last two Government Deputies who spoke talked about all the new money injected into new projects by the Minister for Agriculture. I rather think that, if the last Deputy had a little more experience in this House, he would——

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. O'Donovan)

Schoolmaster, Deputy.

Mr. Allen

——rather come to the conclusion that it was bad estimating 14 months ago that has forced the Minister for Agriculture to come in here now for extra money. There was an Estimate for Grants-in-Aid——

Mr. O'Donovan

They are not Grants-in-Aid, Deputy.

Mr. Allen

Appropriations-in-Aid, rather.

Mr. Carter

The Parliamentary Secretary should not be so smart now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order! Deputy Allen is in possession.

Mr. Allen

The smart Alec over beyond!

Mr. O'Donovan

That is an old score, Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, order!

Mr. Carter

He is making no cry about tea these days. Long ago, he was a prophet about tea.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy does not cease interrupting, I must ask him to leave the House. Deputy Allen is in possession.

Mr. Blowick

While you are at it, would you ask Deputy Carter to sit in a proper seat?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That also is an interruption. Deputy Allen must be allowed to make his statement without these interruptions.

Mr. Allen

If the Minister would have patience——

Mr. Blowick

We put the Deputy in his proper seat, anyway.

Mr. Allen

The Minister was silent for the past half hour, while the Deputies behind him were speaking. It annoys him to see Deputies from these benches speaking. When considering the different sub-heads, Deputies Lindsay and Donegan were troubled to tell us about seed testing and propagation. They are nearly as old as the Department of Agriculture itself.

Mr. Dillon

Oh, no.

Mr. Allen

Since I was a wee boy, we had testing and propagation done in Ballinacurra, and, since Fianna Fáil started the wheat growing scheme in this country, there has been seed wheat testing, but the Minister for Agriculture would have us believe that he started it.

Mr. Carter

He would have us believe that.

Mr. Allen

He might have informed the little Deputies sitting behind him of that. The experimental station at Glenamoy about which we heard so much from Deputy Lindsay was an alternative to the grass meal industry in the same place and Deputy Lindsay might have adverted to the fact that Deputy Jack Lynch, then Parliamentary Secretary, made available to that industry a considerable amount of State money. So much so, in fact, that, at the time it was taken over some 15 months ago by this impartial Minister for Agriculture, it had been brought up to a certain standard of fertility and it was ready for further development. It was only under absolute pressure from all sides of the House—from the Deputies sitting behind him also—that it was agreed to go on with some other development. If my memory serves me correctly, there were considerable amounts of State funds spent on the drainage and development of that bogland in Glenamoy before it was taken over as an experimental station, and, if there are a few more employed now, it was because of the pioneer work done by the Fianna Fáil administration.

Mr. Blowick

Not at all.

Mr. Allen

We can claim that.

Mr. Blowick

You can claim it but you will not get away with it.

Mr. Allen

Perhaps the Minister for Lands would stay quiet for a few moments. There were grants made to certain important rural organisations —the Irish Countrywomen's Association, Macra na Feirme and Muintir na Tíre. If my memory serves me correctly, it was the Fianna Fáil administration which gave the grants to those organisations. The Minister may challenge me, if he likes.

Mr. Walsh

Oh, he admits it. We got it out of him. He admits that we started it.

Mr. Allen

So he does. Deputy Donegan spoke about all the new money that was injected into this work. Sub-head M (4) deals with cattle and sheep, farm implements, milking machines, fodder and advances to the co-operative society in Dungarvan. Deputy Walsh could claim credit, as could Deputy Smith, for that.

The next sub-head is farm buildings scheme and water supplies. I think that that could be divided evenly both between Deputy Smith and the present Minister for Agriculture. The present Minister will admit that for two years after he became Minister for Agriculture he held up a very desirable scheme —the farm buildings scheme—and refused to provide any money or staff in his Department to allow it to be administered. We remember all these things but we give the present Minister credit for half that scheme. Deputy Donegan may not know that; he is an infant Deputy in this House. However, he will know it after a while.

Mr. Blowick

Sub-heads M (9) and M (10) now.

Mr. Allen

M (10)—ground limestone subsidy. If you wish, we will give Deputy Dillon, the Minister for Agriculture, all possible credit for having been lucky enough to be Minister for Agriculture at the time the American Counterpart Fund became available to this country. The Americans insisted —insisted—and forced the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, to devote portion of that money to the subsidisation of ground limestone. The Minister's memory is not so short and he should inform his colleagues that that happened. He is fully aware of it. It was not until his hand was forced that he made any of that money available for the subsidisation of ground limestone.

We will go down a bit further on the list. Diseases of Animals Acts—that is dated 1894. I am sure the Minister does not claim that he initiated that scheme. Further down again there is Bovine T.B. Order, 1926. We can take it that he does not claim that either. I think these are all the new sub-heads on the list. Sub-head E (6) was a substitute scheme for a better scheme and a more desirable scheme that was abandoned by the Coalition Government. I refer to the grass meal scheme.

We give the Minister all possible credit so far as the water supplies scheme and the ground limestone scheme are concerned. We shall say what we think about the different projects on the list. A sum of £105,000 extra is required for the farm buildings scheme. I should like the Minister to speed up the payments of these grants. There are numerous complaints down the country in respect of delay in the payment of grants under the farm buildings scheme.

Mr. Dillon

I cannot remember the Deputy's writing to me about any of them.

Mr. Allen

There have been numerous complaints about it. I shall give the Minister a number of them that I have.

Mr. Dillon

Did the Deputy write to me about them?

Mr. Allen

The Minister should speed up the payments. There is probably some reason for the delay in some areas more than in others.

Mr. Dillon

Did the Deputy write to me about it?

Mr. Allen

I will give the Minister some facts that have recently come to my notice. With regard to ground limestone subsidy, I thoroughly agree with Deputy Corry that there is a very big waste so far as this fund is concerned. I am sure the Minister must be concerned about it. Within a few short years it will become a direct charge on the Exchequer again. If the Minister knew its full operation and if he knew that those engaged in the haulage of lime are concerned with long hauls rather than with short hauls, it is questionable whether he would allow things to remain as they are at the moment.

In commerce, people try to earn all they can from every source. I believe that the scheme is wasteful. County Wexford is probably the only area in the country where there is a scarcity of ground limestone. As a matter of fact, there is none at all in it. We have some limestone but it was found to be uneconomic to develop it. It is the only area in the country where it is necessary to haul the full distance. I suggest the Minister should have a further investigation into this matter now and zone the whole country. I suggest he should not permit cross hauls to take place in order to get the long mileage in different parts of the country. If he does so, money will be saved.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is aware, no doubt, that there is a 40-mile limit?

Mr. Allen

I am aware of that. I think the Minister's predecessor imposed that limit. Before that, they were hauling as far as 130 miles.

Mr. Dillon

Then, of course, we had not as many lime grinding plants.

Mr. Allen

They were hauling lime from North County Dublin to Wexford.

Mr. Dillon

And were you not glad to get it?

Mr. Allen

We had lime nearer to us in Carlow and in South Kilkenny than North County Dublin.

Mr. Dillon

Why did you not get it from there?

Mr. P.J. Burke

It was not as good as the North County Dublin lime.

Mr. Allen

That does not arise now. If the Minister or I owned a lorry and if we could get a long haul of 120 or 130 miles, would we not take it in preference to a 15-mile haul? If the regulations allowed it, no blame could be attached to the lorry-owner for taking a long haul. There are areas in the country where there is still room for improvement. These areas should be zoned within an area around particular lime fields.

Why C.I.E. can collect between 7½ and 12 per cent. merely for paying out cheques is beyond me. I cannot understand it. There is a lot of dissatisfaction generally about the way a good part of that subsidy is spent. It it not Fianna Fáil influence but some other type of influence that is responsible for this situation. Some people can get a haul while others are refused. I do not like to use a very strong word but it is frequently said down the country that there is not straight dealing where this is concerned. One person can get a haulier's plate to haul ground limestone while another person in similar circumstances is refused. The Minister has been made aware of that situation on many occasions.

I suggest there is need to exercise the utmost care because, ultimately, the Minister is responsible to this House for the administration of that fund. I believe it was he who decided, when he first became Minister, to hand over the administration of that fund to C.I.E. and to take no responsibility afterwards for anything they did. Nevertheless, the Minister has to come to this House with the Estimate for his Department and, in the ultimate analysis, the Minister himself is actually responsible for the honest administration of that fund. When I say "honest" I mean honest as between the different citizens of this country. If I can get three lorries on the road and my next-door neighbour can get none——

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh has passed Deputy Allen a note which will help him with his observations. What are the contents of Deputy Walsh's note?

Mr. Allen

No.

Mr. Blowick

He has probably told him that no haulier's plate was issued since 1955.

Mr. Walsh

I did not say any such thing. When did I say that?

Mr. Blowick

So the Deputy has it after all and the Deputy is asking him to repeat it.

Mr. Dillon

What was Deputy Walsh's note? We all want to know that.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Walsh, sitting on my left, has just drawn my attention to the fact that C.I.E. have notified quarry owners that they will not allow them to haul any lime after seven o'clock in the evening. That is it in a nutshell.

Mr. Walsh

That is quite true.

Mr. Allen

The Minister should inquire into that. The lime subsidy has also been paid out of the American grant. Now the American grant is not unlimited and, if this continues for the next ten years——

Mr. Walsh

The next three years.

Mr. Allen

——I am sure it will be required for the next 40 years or the next 100 years—the Minister should ensure that no portion of that fund is wasted. I suggest it is time to have a check-up on the whole thing.

With regard to diseases of animals, I see there is provision for compensation in the case of jaundice. I suggest to the Minister there is another disease in relation to which compensation ought also to be paid. I refer to anthrax. There is no provision for compensation for loss of animals through anthrax. It is, of course, a very serious disease. I do not know why compensation should not be paid. Anthrax could be even more serious than foot and mouth because it can be transmitted to the human. I know a farmer in my constituency who lost seven cattle this year through anthrax. He received no compensation, even though his whole activity was held up for six or eight weeks. There is always the danger of further outbreaks. I appeal to the Minister to look into that matter and to make some kind of provision for compensation in the case of cattle which have to be slaughtered or destroyed because of anthrax.

With regard to bovine T.B., there is a flaw in the case of farmers who voluntarily have their herds tested and where reactors are found. These reactors are put on the market and some other farmer takes them up. They are passed off, on the basis of being sound animals, whereas they are really taking the disease into some other herd. I suggest something should be done about that. I do not know what the percentage of reactors is. Probably it is about 5 per cent. It should be possible to have those reactors taken over and disposed of otherwise.

Mr. Dillon

What did the Deputy say was his estimate of the percentage of reactors?

Mr. Allen

About 5 per cent.

Mr. Dillon

Where?

Mr. Walsh

It is 50 per cent.

Mr. Allen

I hope not.

Mr. Dillon

These are matters it is well not to dwell upon.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister made the statement himself this evening. Is that not true? There is not much harm in repeating the Minister's statement.

Mr. Allen

I am only speaking from my own personal knowledge. I know one particular herd where the percentage was 90. I know two or three others in the same area where it was only 5 or 6 per cent. In the case of the 90 per cent., carriers had been brought into the farm over a number of years and that was the reason for the very high percentage. I do not believe at all that it is as high as 50. A considerable number of animals have been found to be suffering from avian T.B. The Minister is well aware of that. I think some differentiation should be made, if that is possible. I am told the avian T.B. is nothing like as serious as the bovine, but the animals are all classed as if they were suffering from bovine T.B.

With regard to the Appropriations-in-Aid, the Minister has not given any details of his losses, where they occurred or how it was there was such a sharp reduction.

Mr. Walsh

He gave the losses.

Mr. Allen

We would like to have some more information on that. There is a sum of £278,000 in the Appropriations-in-Aid. I suppose the Minister will spend that in some other direction. It is not unusual, of course, to have a Supplementary Estimate for Agriculture, but I want to assure the Deputy from Louth that there are no new sub-heads injected into agriculture for the first time. With the exception of one sub-head, every one was either introduced by the Minister's predecessor or is as old as the Department of Agriculture itself. Some of them were there before the Deputy or I was born.

Mr. Donegan

The farm buildings scheme, the ground lime subsidy!

An Ceann Comhairle

Merely for the sake of saying that to Deputy Donegan, Deputy Allen may not repeat.

Mr. Allen

We will give half the credit to the present Minister for the water supply scheme.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy said all that earlier.

Mr. Allen

It is for Deputy Donegan's benefit.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Donegan can read the Deputy's speech later.

Mr. Allen

I should like to refer to the bad taste and the pique shown by Deputy Donegan. I was surprised at him. I had some respect for him, because, as far as I know, he comes from the land and claims to represent the agricultural interests. To say the least of it, my respect for him has fallen very low because of his antics here to-night, all because representatives of certain rural organisations saw fit to write articles for a newspaper which the Deputy and his Party do not like.

Mr. Donegan

On a certain day.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know how this can arise.

Mr. Allen

It arises out of a quarter-hour's speech.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Mr. Allen

The Minister for Agriculture came into it. Surely we are entitled to reply to the observations made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must relate his remarks to the Estimate.

Mr. Allen

However relevant it was, Deputy Donegan succeeded in getting away with a lot of dirt and mud slinging which brings him and his Party into absolute contempt.

Mr. Calleary

I was delighted to see Glenamoy included in this Estimate, and to hear that the number of labourers engaged during the last year had been substantially increased. In this area, Glenamoy, we have one of the largest tracts of waste land in this country and I, who visit the area at least every two months, am delighted to see the good work being carried on there. I congratulate the Minister upon that good work. I do not want to give him too many bouquets. Rumour has it that in this area, we are going to fall back on the experiments in grass meal and I would like the Minister, in concluding the debate, to tell us if that is so. I am sorry the grass meal scheme was dropped because I believe there is a future in the country for the grass meal and that grass meal could be produced and sold at a cheaper rate here. I believe it would have been useful to have a grass meal factory; it would help to reduce the amount we are spending in importing maize and other foodstuffs necessary to maintain our live stock.

I regret that a Deputy has again used this House to give expression to vile, foul and slanderous lies.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not say that another Deputy has told lies. There must be a limit.

Mr. Calleary

I wish to say that the manager of the grass meal company was a personal friend of one of the Parliamentary Secretaries in this House. That manager was a capable man. That manager had assured the House that neither I nor any of the directors of the grass meal company did introduce politics into that scheme. I stand over that statement, and if the present Minister thinks that is not correct, he can find out easily by making inquiries from the manager of the company who has now got a well-deserved job. I realise that the grass meal company was closed down for 12 months after the Coalition came into office. Surely it could not be expected, when they had been told to go slow, that they could increase the number of labourers employed. I also know that the Deputy who made the foul statements here this evening did appear in North Mayo and made contentious remarks about the grass meal scheme, and said that he saw that the circus from Duleek had now extended to Glenamoy. I am quite capable of meeting the Deputy any time in North Mayo. The people of North Mayo realise that this great experiment was due to the foresight of Deputy Jack Lynch. I am glad that the Minister has carried it on. I know the Minister is a Mayo man and I know he will do what he can to help County Mayo, and to ease the burden in this area. I am certain that he will do everything in his power to make this scheme a great success.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know really if, in the discussion of these Supplementary Estimates, there is any need for people to get cross and really, when listening to Deputy Lynch, I was surprised, because I do not think anybody said anything to justify his intense indignation. It would be a pity if we abstracted from the normal debate that degree of trenchancy which makes debate tolerable, for fear of hurting the feelings of over-sensitive participants in our proceedings.

Sometimes, when I listen to the Opposition, they are so concerned to establish the fact that the present incumbent of the Ministry of Agriculture has done nothing that I begin to wonder is it possibly true that I have done nothing; and yet the evidence of the facts suggests to me that the inter-Party Government has authorised me to do a great deal as Minister for Agriculture.

The sub-head E (1) which is provided here, is for the purpose of Backweston farm, where it is proposed to propagate certified seed, with a view to distributing it for the production of adequate supplies from our own land of certified seed wheat, seed oats and seed barley and such other agricultural seeds as may advantageously be propagated in our climate for use by our own farmers and for export to the farmers of the world. It may interest Deputies to know that we are already receiving inquiries from abroad for Irish certified seed wheat bearing the label under the certification scheme for which, so far as I know, the Department of Agriculture became responsible since I returned to office in 1954.

I sometimes begin to feel that there is a duty on me to apologise for doing these things, for doing them seems to drive the Fianna Fáil Party into frenzies of indignation. But surely that is what a Minister for Agriculture ought to be doing, and the very element in our certified seed scheme that I consider to be the most satisfactory is, not that we are going to provide our own domestic farmers with their seed, but that we are producing seed wheat of a quality which the foreigner is most anxious to buy because he cannot get anything any better anywhere else in the world. If the foreigner, who can purchase in any market he cares to go to, is inquiring for our certified seed wheat, is that not the highest recommendation that our certified seed wheat could have for our own farmers; but if our farmers do not want it, is it not a very satisfactory thing to know that there are discerning farmers in other countries only too eager to buy it and to pay us for it?

Mr. Walsh

We knew that when we started it.

Mr. Briscoe

In a country where the Minister said he would not be found dead in a field of wheat.

Captain Giles

Was he not right?

Mr. Dillon

Why do members of the Opposition get as mad as wet hens, when these facts are made known?

Mr. Briscoe

I never saw a wet hen.

Mr. Dillon

I should be glad to salute Deputy Walsh on any achievement of his, while he was Minister for Agriculture, and I think I was always scrupulous.

Mr. Walsh

Then the Minister should not disparage other Ministers who did good work before his time.

Mr. Dillon

I am trying to give credit to other Ministers.

Mr. Walsh

If you did, nobody would have a word to say but you do not do it.

Mr. Dillon

There was a good deal of discussion about the ground limestone scheme. I want to declare this in the presence of Dáil Éireann and challenge denial by all and sundry. I should like to say in Dáil Éireann what I said at the crossroads. The day I took over the Department of Agriculture in 1948 there was not as much ground limestone in the whole Twenty-Six Counties of the Irish Republic as would fill one eggcup.

Mr. Walsh

That is wrong.

Mr. Dillon

That is true. There was being produced in South Kilkenny a commodity called limestone flour.

Mr. Walsh

And in Carlow.

Mr. Dillon

It was being offered to our farmers at 30/- to 35/- per ton ex Kilkenny or Carlow.

Mr. Walsh

No, at 28/- per ton.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to be heard without interruption.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh says 28/- per ton ex Carlow or Kilkenny. But what I am talking about is the commodity which is delivered, carriage paid, to any farmer's gate in any part of Ireland at a cost of from 11/- to 16/- per ton. The commodity that is delivered to the farmer's gate at that price is what I call ground limestone. When I am talking about ground limestone, I am not talking about any commodity that was offered to the farmers at 28/- per ton ex Carlow or Kilkenny. That was a Fianna Fáil product. The inter-Party product was that which was delivered carriage paid to the farmer's gate, and of that commodity there was not enough in the Twenty-Six Counties of the Irish Republic in February, 1948, to fill one common eggcup out of Woolworth's. That is an undeniable fact and I am happy at last to have brought Deputy Walsh to the point of confirming——

Mr. Walsh

I travelled with Dr. Jones to about five quarries in October, 1947.

Mr. Dillon

And if you had been there from then up to this you would still be travelling from quarry to quarry. The difference is when the inter-Party Government came into office what started travelling out of the quarries was not Dr. Jones or Deputy Walsh but ground limestone. I suppose the quarries were sick looking at the Deputy trotting in and out. Now, in any case, there is trotting out of every quarry all the ground limestone that anybody wants delivered to his door at 16/- a ton or less.

Mr. Walsh

On a point of order. Might I ask the Minister one question?

Mr. Dillon

That is scarcely a point of order.

Mr. Walsh

Is it not true to say that the Minister wanted mineral phosphate produced in this country in preference to lime?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to be heard without interruption.

Mr. Walsh

I am looking for an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Other Deputies have been heard without interruption. The Minister must not be interrupted and must not have questions put to him. I must insist on the Minister getting a hearing.

Mr. Dillon

A special problem which was raised in relation to ground limestone was the system of the transport subsidy. I do not want to make any smart-alec replies to these remonstrances but the scheme of subsidy was established by me in 1951 when the ground limestone scheme was inaugurated. Deputy Walsh took over the Department of Agriculture in that year and he remained as Minister for Agriculture until the summer of 1954. If Deputy Walsh thought that the transport subsidy system which I had established was unsatisfactory, inequitable or wasteful, as Deputy Allen and Deputy Corry suggest, am I unreasonable if I inquire why Deputy Walsh did not change it?

Mr. Walsh

So I did.

Mr. Dillon

Whatever he did, I suppose he did what he thought was best.

Mr. Walsh

And you have not changed it since.

Mr. Dillon

No, I have not. The scheme I am operating to-day is exactly the same scheme as Deputy Walsh left.

Mr. Allen

Deputy Walsh changed it.

Mr. Dillon

He set the limit at 40 miles, because, as the number of ground limestone plants multiplied, it no longer was necessary to provide for an unlimited transport subsidy even for remote areas except, oddly enough, in Deputy Allen's own constituency in Wexford.

Mr. Walsh

And Wicklow.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, and in certain parts of the congested areas, and the reason is that you cannot get enough limestone deposits within 40 miles of some of the places in those areas. Some people will argue that farmers in those areas ought to be penalised. I think Deputy Walsh was right in saying that where there is limestone available within 40 miles of the land there should not be a subsidy on transport, but where it is not available within 40 miles then we will allow the subsidy to be paid on the extra mileage. I have not changed that, and why the whole Fianna Fáil Party, led by Deputy Walsh, Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen, should be thumping a tub here to-day about the highly unsatisfactory system of transport subsidy for ground limestone, is a mystery to me.

Mr. Walsh

I did not take that line.

Mr. Dillon

You will agree that Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen did?

Mr. Walsh

I was not listening.

Mr. Dillon

That is the trouble. They have their Leader, Deputy de Valera; they have the Irish Press; they have the shadow Minister, and then they have the backbenchers, the five of them all playing a different tune. If you correct one tune, then the other four stand up and say: “We never said that.” Then you correct the other four and the fifth sore thumb hops up and says: “I never said that.” You have to struggle through five different contradictory arguments and try to correct them all, but as quickly as you correct one, up jump the others sayinng: “We never said that.”

Mr. Walsh

You are thinking of the Coalition.

Mr. Dillon

Am I not pointing out to Deputy Walsh what is the burden of complaint? He says: "I did not make that complaint." I say to Deputy Walsh: "Did not Deputy Corry and Deputy Allen make it?" He says: "I was not listening to them." But I was.

Mr. Walsh

Were you listening to Deputy O'Hara?

Mr. Dillon

I was.

Mr. Walsh

Did you correct him?

Mr. Dillon

On what?

Mr. Walsh

The wild statements he was making.

Mr. Dillon

I am saying Deputy Walsh left a system of lime transport there. With all its imperfections, I believe it was probably the best that could be done under the circumstances in which we found ourselves. I did not change it because I thought, in all the circumstances, I would have done what Deputy Walsh did.

Mr. Allen

Why follow Deputy Walsh?

Mr. Dillon

For no reason, except I thought if I were in his position, I would have done exactly what he did, and it does seem ridiculous that, that having been the case, Deputy Allen and Deputy Corry should come in here appearing to protest indignantly at this most improvident arrangement which was made by their own Minister and which I am prepared——

Mr. Walsh

That was not the protest. The protest they made was that private hauliers were denied the right to carry lime.

Mr. Dillon

Were they not denied that right when you were there?

Mr. Walsh

They were.

Mr. Dillon

And the Deputy did not change it?

Mr. Walsh

I did my utmost, and I failed.

Mr. Dillon

I thought there was never any disagreement within the Fianna Fáil Party?

Mr. Walsh

It was not a question of that. You failed me.

Mr. Dillon

What stopped you?

Mr. Walsh

The undertakings you gave.

Mr. Dillon

The plain truth is connected with the fundamental question whether you are going to have a transport monopoly or not. Oireachtas Éireann decided, for good or evil, years ago that C.I.E., for the common good, would be granted a monopoly in regard to the transport services. When we were evolving this lime transport subsidy scheme we succeeded in getting the consent of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to some qualification of that general principle laid down by Oireachtas Éireann. The plain fact is that the Oireachtas has determined that C.I.E. is to have a transport monopoly in the country. If you want to change that, change it, but so long as that is the fundamental decision of Oireachtas Éireann it is natural that where there is a large transport job to be done which is being subsidised out of Government funds, the transport monopoly will be the principal agent for its administration.

Mr. Walsh

The time is ripe for revision of that agreement.

Mr. Dillon

It is always true to say, "when the devil is sick the devil a saint would be." So long as the Deputy was in a position to enact that alteration he was not in favour of it. The moment he is no longer in a position to change the law he is rearing for revolutionary upheavals. I sympathise with that.

Mr. Walsh

If the Minister is prepared to make the effort, I will give him the material.

Mr. Dillon

I am very much obliged to the Deputy, but I have got plenty of material and I have got a great deal of work to do. I am not pretending that the basis of the lime transport subsidy is the perfection of equity and justice for all, but I think there is pretty good evidence that the scheme that Deputy Walsh and myself in our respective times as Minister for Agriculture found was as near perfection as we could get in practice, is as good as we can do. I think Deputy Walsh will agree that, fundamentally, the real issue at stake is, will the transport monopoly be maintained or will it not? I do not deny that the system is under constant review to see if improvements can be made in it and it will be kept under constant review but I think I am bound to add, in honesty to the House, that so long as the principle is maintained by Oireachtas Éireann that C.I.E. is to be the transport monopoly of the country, the prospect of any radical change in the present system is remote. That is the plain truth.

I do not think the figures quoted by Deputy Corry ought to be left uncorrected on the record. Deputy Corry asked me a parliamentary question, in reply to which he got certain statistical material. Deputy Corry is not always scrupulous in the way he uses statistical material. Deputy Corry kept referring to C.I.E. getting 20/3 per ton on the cartage of limestone and I said to him: "What is the average?""Ah," he said, "I am not worrying with averages. They are getting 20/3 for the cartage of ground limestone."

Mr. Allen

He said over 40 miles.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but he did not tell us that it was for the very exceptional case of over 46 and under 50 miles, of which I do not suppose there is 1 per cent. of the haulage used in the country. I am not trying to defend the existing system as the acme of perfection. I think it is just a practical working method as near perfection as we can get at this stage but, in fairness to C.I.E., it must be remembered that they have to take every haul that is offered to them, short or long, simple or difficult. They are bound to take ground limestone from any pit to any consignee on a hard road and the average per ton that they have received to date for the cartage of ground limestone is, in the year 1955-56, about 12/10. per ton. That is taking the short with the long haul. I think the average paid to private hauliers and owners of ground limestone plants works out at about 13/6 a ton and I think the average paid to Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann is in the order of 12/7 a ton. I want to warn Deputies that you cannot compare these rates with one another as being identical or perfect comparisons, because regard must be had to all the circumstances surrounding the way in which each person is doing the hauling, and it must be borne in mind that the man who owns the lime pit or quarry can always opt to use his own transport, or send for C.I.E.

Mr. Walsh

Provided he gets it.

Mr. Dillon

He must get it and, if he does not, he can complain to us, as the Deputy knows, and we will take it up with C.I.E. if they are not providing adequate service.

Mr. Walsh

If they are not providing adequate service?

Mr. Dillon

Yes, that is to say, if the quarry owner sought service and could not get it, he would complain to the Department and the Department would at once take it up with C.I.E. Therefore, the man who has the quarry always has the option of doing the haul himself or getting C.I.E. to do it. Regard must be had to all these special circumstances that obtain.

Therefore, in conclusion on this matter, I would say this: This system is by no means perfect but it is as good as I or my predecessor have been able to make it to date. It has been, and continues to be, under constant review. I cannot foresee any radical or revolutionary change in it, but I would not at all exclude the possibility of improvements being made from time to time as opportunity offers.

Deputy Corry mentioned that Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann was doing a very good job in the distribution of ground limestone. I am glad to pay tribute to the efficiency and the excellence of the work that Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann has done in promoting the ground limestone scheme through its quarries, through the use it has made of its waste lime and through the propaganda which it has most helpfully conducted in supplement of the Department's own efforts to popularise the use of lime. Nobody knows better than I or, I believe, Deputy Walsh, both of us having had responsibility for the Department of Agriculture, how warmly welcome the work of Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann has been in helping us to bring home to the farmers of this country the value of ground limestone and the other fertilisers which Deputy Walsh and I so earnestly sought to persuade farmers to use in greater quantities than they have done heretofore.

Deputy Sheldon spoke of the advantage of potato oats. I confidently anticipate that, at Backweston, our purpose will be to propagate new varieties of oats and, of course, Backweston will be primarily concerned with producing the mother seed which will be dispatched for propagation under the certified seeds scheme. I shall certainly undertake to direct the attention of those responsible for Backweston to his representations in regard to potato oats, with which I have a good deal of sympathy.

The Deputy also suggested that the farm buildings scheme should be extended to silos. That is already, at least in part, being done and whether I would be inclined at this stage to go beyond pit silos is something about which I am not sure. It is a matter on which I value advice from Deputies. I would not wish to prevent a farmer building any silo he wants, but I think we are entitled, in allocating grants, to give a slant in favour of what appears to us to be the most suitable form of silo in our conditions and, from the point of view of economy of labour, if it is mainly grass silage you have in contemplation, probably the pit silo, properly constructed and filled with the Pattison-Buckrake and tractor is the most economical form of conserved fodder which is available in silage form. You have to be careful not to impose on your neighbour your own preconceived convictions. I would be obliged if Deputies would consider the question as to whether we ought to go beyond pit silos and apron silos—that is really a concrete square on which to build the silo stack.

We have got to face the fact that we cannot build Rome in a day and I cannot undertake to provide unlimited sums under the farm building scheme for each financial year. We will have to put some annual limit to the annual sum available for this particular scheme, and agree amongst ourselves that, if the demands exceed that sum, they will have to get into the queue and be provided for as money is available. You cannot undo, in one or two years, the wear and tear of a century. There is no doubt that our farm buildings did fall into culpable disrepair. We are now trying to repair them as quickly as we can. However, if we try to do them all together, we will simply break down. They will have to be done on a programme basis, year by year, and if we are prepared to vote the sum that I will have in my Estimate this year, I think the House will agree with me that it is a generous contribution.

I cannot proceed on the same scale as in Northern Ireland where there is not only a bounty provided for the construction of silos, but also an annual bounty for each footage of silage put into the silo. If you are a wealthy industrial country you can do that kind of thing for your agricultural industry, but, where we are dependent on agriculture for our national income, there is no use pretending that we can subsidise the silos and also give an annual subsidy for their contents.

I share the hope expressed by Deputies from all sides of the House that Glenamoy will be a success, but I should like to say that I will not regard it as a success, unless we succeed in establishing on it the best peat land research station in Europe. I think that anything less than that would be a failure. This development in itself is going to involve the expenditure of considerable sums of money and the employment of considerable numbers of people, both technicians and labourers, but in view of the fact that in the whole West of Ireland, from the north to the extreme south, we have areas of blanket bog as great as any country in Europe, I think the money will be well spent.

Our purpose in Glenamoy is to set up a research station, the lessons from which would be applied as extensively as experience teaches us it is expedient to do so. I feel bound to say that I have no reason to change my view that the proposal to grow grass for conversion into grass meal in Glenamoy was as daft as a sixpenny watch. If you want to make grass meal, you want to do so as cheaply as you can, so that you can sell it to the farming community at the lowest possible rate. If you want to grow grass and to convert it into grass meal, I think you should do that on the most fertile grass land in Ireland.

I do remember that, shortly after Deputy Lynch was appointed Parliamentary Secretary, he mentioned that he was about to embark on this project for growing grass meal. I wrote to him myself and said that, while I realised that he was activated by the best possible motives, I implored him to take competent technical advice on the issue, that, if you want to grow grass for conversion into grass meal, it would be better to grow it on highly fertile land because the cost of growing it on virgin bog would fall on those who had to use grass meal in this country.

Mr. Corry

I would like to ask the Minister how he is going to reconcile that statement with the work on Gowla.

Mr. Dillon

We do not believe, from the technical point of view, that the Gowla project is well conceived. When the proposal was put up by Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann in 1950, it was referred to me. My advice to the Government was that I did not believe in it, but that I did believe in General Costello. I believe that he is a competent man and I did not exclude the possibility that we might be wrong. If a man with General Costello's energy has furnished himself with the best technical advice and comes to the Government and says: "Here is something I think worth developing," I am prepared to advise the Government that he ought to be given assistance. There is always the possibility that he is right and that we are wrong. I think that if you are going to give a man who has the energy and zeal to attempt a project such as the reclamation of Gowla the opportunity of putting his theory to the test, you have no right to be hanging on to his coat-tails all the time he is trying to make the proposition work. I think he is entitled to the opportunity of trying his theory out. I have not the slightest apprehension that he will waste one single shilling on the project. If he comes to the conclusion that the project is misconceived, I am sure he will be the first to come and tell us. If not, I am prepared to back him with whatever facilities he needs, so long as he is convinced that the project or his theory can be made to work.

I do not think I am wrong in that. I think you have to be clear in your minds that the proposition you are prepared to back is on a sensible and reasonable basis. I am not saying that I would give the same facilities to everybody who came and put up a theory to me. I have never concealed that, so far as I was concerned, my belief is that the basis of the Gowla scheme is misconceived. We know that Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann and its technical advisers disagree with that and we may be wrong. So far as I am concerned, I am prepared to advise the Government to back Comhlucht Siuicre Éireann until the project is tested out to a conclusion. I make no apology for having given that advice to the Government and Deputy Walsh gave similar advice when the responsibility became his.

Mr. Corry

Would the Minister consider sending a few of his experts to General Costello, so that they could learn a little?

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Corry loves to make mischief, but I hope that we have our minds open enough to learn from everybody.

Mr. Donegan

Even from Deputy Corry.

Mr. Dillon

That would be putting a very great strain upon us. But, mark you, Deputy Corry is no fool, and when Deputy Corry does not want to make mischief, he can make quite useful contributions to the proceedings of this House, but for 95 per cent. of the time he is on his feet, he is on his feet for one purpose only, and that is to make mischief. It is for the other 5 per cent. of the time that he is on his feet that one can listen to him with attention. He is now there sitting like an elf trying to make mischief and he will not succeed in making it.

Mr. Corry

If I was as bad as the poor Minister who has been ordered by his colleagues to keep as quiet as a mouse——

Mr. Sweetman

Now, now, little elf.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh queried the reduction in the Appropriation-in-Aid in respect of fresh meat and I think that was possibly owing to a misunderstanding. The figure, the reduction is in the Estimate but if you compare——

Mr. Walsh

Is that not the same thing?

Mr. Dillon

If you compare the actual receipts in 1954-55 with the revised estimate of receipts this year, you will find the deficiency is not as substantial at it would appear.

Mr. Walsh

The revised estimate?

Mr. Dillon

Yes, that is, of what we expect to get this year, allowing for a reduction in the Appropriation-in-Aid. In 1954-55, we actually collected £15,705. In this year we had hoped to collect £32,000, but the expansion we had hoped for has not taken place and, in fact, we will make about £12,500, so that the reduction in the actual receipts will be in the order of £3,200.

I would particularly ask Deputies not to be misled by what was manifestly a misunderstanding. The reductions in the Appropriation-in-Aid in respect of the departmental schools are not losses but they represent the difference between what it looks like we will actually get from the schools and what we anticipated we would get. That simply arises from the extent to which you undertake experimental work in the schools or simply proceed more or less on a purely commercial basis. In a year when there is relatively little experimental work proceeding you may expect the Appropriation-in-Aid in respect of the schools to be high as most of the stuff will be turned out in accordance with good husbandry, but if you put in cattle for comparative feeding tests—and there are tests proceeding to determine the relative value of Shorthorn crosses and crosses with Herefords and crosses with Aberdeen-Angus, which, I think, we were all agreed it was desirable to have—if you put in this type of test you must expect to some extent a reduction in the commercial return on the operation——

Mr. Walsh

Not to any great extent.

Mr. Dillon

I assure the Deputy that that is so, and so far as I am concerned I have no apology to make for it. Whenever it is necessary in the interests of scientific investigation to avail of the resources of the Department I propose to do so. I do not say it does happen—but it could happen—that the extent of the difference in the Appropriation-in-Aid could be the true measure of the value of the scientific investigation.

Mr. Sheldon

Does the Minister appreciate that Deputies have not yet got the actual returns for 1954-55, the Appropriations-in-Aid, and that they are at a disadvantage?

Mr. Corry

The Deputies are not chancing their arms any more than the Minister.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Hughes queried whether the import of seed wheat was likely to interfere with homegrown certified seed. So far as I know, there is no possibility of that danger arising.

Mr. Walsh

These imports will be in competition with the homegrown seed. The price is the determining factor. The price of certified seed this year is £5 16s. credit.

Mr. Dillon

Actually, we are receiving applications for licences to export it.

Mr. Walsh

So we may be, but the price here is going to determine the price of certified seed sold, the price of the homegrown product against the price of the imported seed.

Mr. Dillon

Actually, we are getting inquiries to export it and I think those of us who are producing certified seed are in a position to say to those who do not want to buy it: "If you do not want it, there are plenty others who do", but it is not intended that large quantities of pedigree seed wheat, or high seed wheat, will be admitted. Some will be admitted in the same way as certain limited quantities of top-grade seed oats will be admitted and we have no reason to apprehend such quantities as are admitted are likely to any degree to interfere with sales of our certified seed.

I think Deputy Hughes probably heard my reference to farm buildings. I am glad that service is appreciated but I must say that we must set a limit to the annual charge that will come in course of payment and do the best we can with the resources at our disposal. I think that covers every point that was raised.

I am sure Deputies on all sides of the House are anxious to see progress made in the development of our agricultural industry. Now that we have all returned from the hustings I shall look forward confidently to a somewhat more objective approach to the problems which beset the industry. I have noticed the miscellaneous distribution of posters by the Opposition in the course of the North Kerry by-election which seems to suggest that some slight trace of lack of objectivity exists in their approach to the problems that are besetting the industry.

Mr. Corry

Four thousand of a drop is bad enough for you; we do not like to kill you altogether.

Mr. Dillon

Let us not dwell on the result of the election. I am dwelling on the posters; I am referring to the posters which Deputy Hilliard and his friends were hanging up, posters saying, "Vote for Moloney".

Mr. Briscoe

They are not the cost-of-living ones?

Mr. Dillon

No, they are the ones exhorting creamery farmers to march on Dublin, doubtless with Deputy Hilliard at their head. But now that we have left the husting days behind, I have attractive photographs of the posters showing Deputy Hilliard——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot see how this can arise on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Walsh

We have a few photographs in our possession, too, if ever you would like to see them.

Mr. Dillon

Ones with "Vote Moloney" on them?

Mr. Walsh

Oh, no.

Mr. Dillon

They are at a discount now, I believe.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order! We must keep to the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

We will have wider scope for discussion when the main Estimate comes before the House, and in the meantime I would like to express my appreciation to those Deputies who took a constructive part in this debate, and, from their number, I do not even exclude Deputy Corry.

Mr. Corry

I have a photograph of the Minister driving the beetles out of the roof.

Mr. Derrig

Might I ask the Minister two questions? As regards the question of the Appropriations-in-Aid in the agricultural colleges, I believe that probably different results can be obtained according to how the accounts are presented, but if the reason for the deficiency is that experimental work is being carried on, might I suggest to the Minister that definite provision should be made for the particular experiment so that as far as possible the Dáil and the country would see the working of the agricultural station as distinct from whatever experimental or research work is being done?

The second question I should like to ask the Minister is whether in regard to sub-head E (6) the peatland experimental station, an account will be kept of the cost for the liming and preparation of the peatland in question and a report issued from time to time and that we will see what the costs are?

Mr. Dillon

In regard to the first query, as Deputy Walsh knows, the practice in regard to the schools has not changed at any time. No restrictions are being placed on the teaching staffs as to the nature of the experiments they carry out but, sometimes, in addition to the experiments associated with the ordinary programme of instruction, they are asked to carry out special investigations on behalf of the Minister for Agriculture. I am not sure that I could give an unqualified undertaking that the costings of all these operations would be segregated. I do not think it would be practicable to do so and I am not sure it is a task which the superintendent of these schools, who has a good deal to do, should be asked to undertake. We fill up too many forms and we ought not to smother these men with costing and so forth.

With regard to the second question, I can assure the Deputy that the whole purpose of the station is to continue on with the experiments under the most vigorous scientific conditions, with a view to preparing reports upon them of a standard suitable for learned journals of the highest order. I should imagine that most papers founded on the work there will appear either in the journal of the Department or in learned journals which will accept publications of that kind.

Vote put and agreed to.