Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Mar 1956

Vol. 154 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 69—National Development Fund (Resumed).

Mr. Walsh

When speaking on this Estimate last time, I talked about some schemes we had put before the Government some of which were approved before the change of Government in June, 1954. Moneys were allocated for them but there is no expenditure upon them. Many of them have been placed in abeyance. These schemes were designed for the purpose of trying to get better production from the land. We had, for instance, a credit scheme for fertilisers. That was on our list and I am sure it is in the possession of the Minister for Finance.

In that scheme it was suggested that interest free loans would be issued to farmers, or loans at 2 per cent. interest at the most. The purpose behind these credit schemes for farmers is well worthy of consideration. Fertilisers should be used in this country as we use seeds. They should be applied each spring for the purpose of growing one crop.

If we were to adopt that policy and have our people educated to do this there would not be much difficulty in making the money available. As a matter of fact, fertilisers would be available more cheaply to the farmers than they are at present. Credit should be made available early in the year, in October or November, immediately after the harvest. Farmers should be encouraged to buy in store at that time, avail of the rebatements given by manufacturers, the discounts given by distributors and retail merchants and cover the storage charges which are incidental expenses charged by the manufacturers and retailers. This money should be made available to the farmers for 12 months and in the case of dairying counties repayable by the 15th October and in the case of tillage areas by the 1st November. If it were properly managed and worked that would have been of inestimable value to the country.

Mr. Sweetman

What did my predecessor think about it?

Mr. Walsh

It does not matter what he or any other Minister thought about it. What matters is what I think about it.

Mr. Sweetman

Unfortunately, the Deputy was a very small boy in the last Government.

Mr. Walsh

I am putting it to the House and the country that that is one method by which we can build up agriculture. It is a method by which we can increase agricultural production here. Between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 are expended on fertilisers annually in this country, and one of the greatest burdens placed on the user of these fertilisers is the amount of money lost in interest rates and storage charges. If that were made available for the purpose of reducing the price of fertilisers, the amount of fertilisers that would be used would be far greater and in 12 months, or at most in two years, would show their value.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This discussion would be more relevant on the Estimate for Agriculture.

Mr. Walsh

I think it is relevant in this case, because it is one of the schemes put forward originally for grants out of the National Development Fund. I think it is a matter that should interest the Minister for Finance. I am not asking the Minister for Finance to help farmers as farmers, but if he wants to help the country as an agricultural State and to build up prosperity, he must interest himself in these matters. The Minister should know that, since lime was used with such effect in the country, there has been greater production of grass, cereals and roots.

It might be argued that we have better seeds and so forth and that all the value may not be attributable to fertilisers alone. Be that as it may, I think this scheme is well worth consideration. Under it, we had a special veterinary research scheme. A recommendation was made to the Government for a sum of money which was approved, but no money has been spent on that scheme. In fact, it was only to-night that the Minister for Agriculture talked about diseases and the losses the country was suffering from them. He painted a sad picture about the effects of bovine T.B. and pointed out that in parts of the country a little less than 50 per cent. of our cattle were reactors. Here was a necessary scheme under which the veterinarians we have in the country could go out and do research work. There is only one at the moment devoting himself to pigs in Thorndale and such diseases as oedema. Then there is aphosphorosis and several other diseases about which we know very little. In 1952 an experiment was carried out in West Limerick on a disease costing this country 70,000 calves annually.

Mr. Sweetman

May I point out that this is not relevant to this Estimate and for a specific reason. It is included in the Estimate for Agriculture and is being carried out under that Vote.

Mr. Walsh

The veterinary research scheme?

Mr. Sweetman

Yes.

Mr. Walsh

We will leave it, then.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy does not know apparently what appears in a Vote which used to be his.

Mr. Walsh

But why does it appear in the answer given to a question put down yesterday by Deputy Aiken? It was a scheme approved of before June, 1954, and was given as such.

Mr. Sweetman

It was dealt with in Vote 27.

Mr. Walsh

Is it not misleading the House not to tell them that this has been taken out of the schemes to be financed out of the National Development Fund? We do not know what schemes have been abandoned, or what schemes have been put in abeyance.

Mr. Sweetman

You asked what schemes were abandoned, and you were told.

Mr. Walsh

How were we to know this one was? The fish farm scheme, the progeny testing scheme, the special veterinary research scheme, the progeny testing scheme for cattle, the artificial insemination scheme, the eggs and poultry scheme, the bovine T.B. scheme, the drying and storage of onions—all were approved prior to June, 1954. How many have been taken off this list and are now included in the Estimate for Agriculture? Is it not purposeless asking us to go on discussing these things, and was it not purposeless for the Minister for Agriculture to give the reply he did to Deputy Aiken yesterday when he asked about these schemes? On the other side, we have a list of schemes approved since 1954. You have the cow and byres and water supply schemes. The water supply scheme was also included in the Estimate for Agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture came in to-night looking for a Supplementary Estimate for water supplies.

Mr. Sweetman

Is it not perfectly apparent that this is not appropriate to this debate?

Mr. Walsh

It is one of the schemes approved of by the present Government. Yet it appears on two documents. We do not know where we are here. What about the drainage of the River Rye? That has not been included, although I take it that it should be included. I do not know whether it would come in under the land reclamation scheme, but since it is in County Kildare, I suppose special provision had to be made for it. There is also this orchard planting in Dungarvan. Provision is being made for that. But how are we to know which scheme is included and which is not?

Mr. Sweetman

By using a little intelligence, Deputy.

Mr. Walsh

I do not know if even the Minister knows. If he does, he should let us know and it might shorten the discussion.

Mr. Sweetman

Is the Deputy really suggesting that he does not understand how the bovine T.B. scheme and the cow byres scheme are dealt with?

Mr. Walsh

I do.

Mr. Sweetman

And why part of it comes out of the National Development Fund and part out of the Vote?

Mr. Walsh

I know that.

Mr. Sweetman

If he does, why ask the Minister?

Mr. Walsh

I was talking about the Dungarvan scheme.

Mr. Sweetman

The Deputy is talking about many things.

Mr. Walsh

I am talking about the Dungarvan scheme. How am I to know——

Mr. Sweetman

The orchard scheme is in the National Development Fund.

Mr. Walsh

However, we will leave it. Obviously, the Minister does not want to have a discussion on it.

Mr. Sweetman

I would like to have a discussion on the truth.

Mr. Walsh

I shall not delay the Minister very long. I say some provision should be made to increase the grants for farm dwelling reconstruction and special provision should be made under the National Development Fund for the purpose of improving farm dwellings, particularly on smaller farms. We all know the great difficulty small farmers have in trying to find money to do reconstruction work on their own houses. The grant for a two-roomed house is £80, that for a three-roomed house is £100 and the four-roomed structure gets the maximum grant of £120. It is quite obvious that, with £120 now, very little work can be done in the building line, particularly because farmers are now unable to help out the grant due to the lack of capital. The Minister should do all in his power to see that the houses of this particular class are made habitable. This type of person is crying out for some help in the direction to which I have pointed. He is the one type who is not given the same consideration as, for instance, his opposite—the person with an income in the urban areas. I do not know how the Minister would assess the income of a 30-acre farmer but in my opinion he is no better off than an urban dweller who earns £300 a year. What help is the State giving at the present time to the person with a £300 a year income and what help is it giving to the farmer with 30 acres? Is there any comparison between the two? None. The State and the local authorities come to the assistance of the £300 a year earner but the valuation of the 30-acre farmer is over £20 and consequently he gets no supplementary grant from the local authority. The advances made to him in respect of a four-roomed house total £120. I submit that that is of very little use at the present time in view of the high cost of building materials, labour, and so forth. I urge the Minister to make some of this £3,000,000 available for the purpose of increasing grants for rural dwellings for small farmers.

Another matter which is retarding progress in the country is the fact that no work is being done in the matter of the widening and surfacing of culs-de-sac. I think the mileage of culs-de-sac which we have in the country is something like 22,000.

Mr. Sweetman

I thought the Deputy attacked me last night because money was being spent on roads?

Mr. Walsh

I am not talking now of main roads. You are spending all your State moneys on them. The ratepayers are making a contribution to the county roads. Who is looking after the culs-de-sac? Who is looking after the small farmers who are living in small villages comprising two, three and four houses, villages which have bad approaches? The people there are unable to get even antiquated machinery into their haggards or farmyards. Under no circumstances could one get in modern machinery there. These old laneways are about nine or ten feet wide and there is no hope of getting any of the modern machinery up through a nine-foot laneway.

The Minister must realise there are many farmers living along these culs-de-sac who are badly handicapped and who are unable to pull their weight even though they are very anxious to do so because of the difficulty of getting machinery and equipping themselves with up-to-date machinery. If the money is available for a road to a coal mine at Gubaveeny, County Cavan, for the drainage of the River Rye, for improvements to Dún Laoghaire railway station or for local Authorities (Works) Act projects that very few counties want at the present time surely some money should be made available for the very necessary work of improving our culs-de-sac. I said that very few counties want Local Authorities (Works) Act projects at the present time because the men do not want to go into the rivers——

Mr. Hughes

Tell that to the Kilkenny County Council.

Mr. Walsh

I know that, and I know that people down in Carlow do not think a lot about it.

Mr. Hughes

They are very anxious to get it, all the same.

Mr. Walsh

If you could get road money, you would prefer it. As I say, if money is available for these works, surely the necessary money should be available for culs-de-sac throughout the country—work which would be of lasting benefit to the people living along the culs-de-sac and to the country generally.

I do not think there is anything more I have to say, having regard to the fact that I am debarred from discussing some of the things I should like to discuss. Because of their inclusion in the Estimates for other Departments, I am debarred from discussing them now. However, I will content myself by waiting until the Estimates for these Departments come along.

Mr. Corry

When this scheme was first brought out it was sent down to the county councils and local authorities for suggestions and proposals. I am concerned with one proposal that was sent up from the Cork County Council, through the Department of Local Government, close on 18 months ago. Right along from Ballymacoda to Ballycotton, there is a large stretch of land which requires drainage and which is severely affected by erosion. The rivers there need to be cleaned out and drained. I inquired from the Minister for Local Government about this 12 months ago. It was submitted for the National Development Fund. I was informed that it had been sent to the Department of Finance and that the Minister was waiting to see what the Department of Finance had to say about it. I then came down and raised the matter with our own local authority, the Cork County Council. Some 600 acres of land, in all, were affected. The poor law valuation per statute acre was somewhere between 30/- and 35/-.

The next thing we got from the Department of Local Government was a suggestion that portion of the scheme could be brought in under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. It was sent up to the Department of Local Government this year—portion of it—under the Local Authorities (Works) Act and there was no money forthcoming for it. Unfortunately, the position we are faced with is that a lot of those farmers have to apply for relief of rates because the land is now derelict through flooding. That will mean a severe loss to the county council funds. In the spring of last year the farmers concerned found they could not plough. You have the same condition of affairs right through the year. The land is all the time in a water-logged state.

Mr. Sweetman

Is there an outfall?

Mr. Corry

There is.

Mr. Sweetman

I do not understand the Deputy, then. Why could it not be done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

Mr. Corry

The full scheme was sent up under the National Development Fund.

Mr. Sweetman

Why could it not be done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

Mr. Corry

I am telling the Minister the position if he will be kind enough to listen to me.

Mr. Sweetman

I am looking for information so that I can consider it.

Mr. Corry

The trouble with the Minister is that the information he has got from his advisers is wrong. That is the trouble with the Minister—too many of those little notes.

Mr. Sweetman

On a point of order. There must be no reference to any of my advisers in this House. Any attack on me is perfectly in order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have informed Deputy Corry there should be no reference to officials. The Minister is responsible.

Mr. Corry

I accept that I am willing to put the whole lot of them under the one cloak.

Mr. Sweetman

Is that a withdrawal?

Mr. Corry

A withdrawal of what?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it the Deputy withdrew the remarks he made about the notes from the Minister's advisers?

Mr. Corry

I did. I am quite willing to have them all under the one cloak; the Minister is responsible for his advisers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is responsible for his Department. The question of advisers does not enter into the debate at all.

Mr. Corry

Right-oh!

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is long enough in this House to know that.

Mr. Corry

I am putting the case to the Minister as I know it. There are some 600 acres of land down there, water-logged, and the complete scheme for the reclamation of that land and the saving of that coast from erosion was lodged with the Department of Local Government for transmission to the Minister's Department a year and a half ago. That scheme took care of the outfall. It was prepared by the late Mr. Coffee, the county engineer for Cork. He went to a considerable amount of trouble and spent a good deal of time in preparing that scheme. When we go to the expense of holding county council meetings in order to consider schemes to be put forward to the Minister in relation to the National Development Fund, we expect to get some result. One cannot summon men in from all parts of County Cork for one day to consider proposals and one cannot ask county engineers, who are highly-paid officials and who have plenty of work to do, to go to all the expense of preparing these proposals for submission in order to have them ignored by the Minister's Department.

Mr. Sweetman

By the Minister. Not by his Department.

Mr. Corry

By the Minister, if the Minister wants it that way.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister does.

Mr. Corry

Very well; he can take it. I would suggest to the Minister that his time would be a little better occupied in looking after those schemes which are sent in, since he wishes to have it that way, at the expense of the ratepayers and the expense of time and labour and annoyance on the part of officials of local authorities.

In relation to that scheme, we got a letter from the Minister for Local Government telling us to do portion of it under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. We proceeded to send a portion of the scheme forward, a portion that would undoubtedly relieve the pressure, at least for the present; I do not believe it would relieve it for good, but it would relieve it to such an extent that the people could continue to till their land, land which is heavily rated and land on which most of those people have between, roughly, 30 and 40 acres per head. The Minister comes along here then, and we are told by the Local Government Department: "Oh, turned down." After being invited to do the scheme, it is then turned down. There are so many Departments now looking after the one job that we do not know on which Department or on whom to place the responsibility. We are anxious to know which Department is responsible.

Is the Minister prepared to say that his Department got that scheme and considered it? Or is such a thing as land, or the welfare of the agricultural community and the tillage farmers in Cork no longer of any importance? Apparently it is not of such importance as Dún Laoghaire, or other proposals that are sent in. I am quite serious when I tell the Minister that I require an answer as to whether or not this scheme will be done by his Department? I require an answer to that. I also require an answer as to why, when we are asked to send a scheme for consideration, and we are referred then to another Minister and another Department, and that Minister and that Department ask us to send up a portion of the scheme under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, the scheme is turned down under the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Minister for Local Government, I take it.

Mr. Corry

The scheme was sent, as I have said, to the Minister for Finance, through the Minister for Local Government, to be included in these development schemes. If we have £3,000,000 to spend, I think it would be far better to spend it in endeavouring to get some production to make up for all the farmers who have been driven out of production during the past 12 months. It would be better spent in that way than spent in the manner in which it is being spent here.

I do not wish to hold up the time of the House, but I have been asked very definitely to get some decision on this scheme, so that those farmers will know whether or not they will have to apply to the rates department of the Cork County Council and to the relevant Departments up here to have their land classified as derelict and thereby freed from rates. That is an important matter where those farmers are concerned, farmers who are endeavouring to earn a livelihood there. Those are the matters with which I am concerned and, since the Minister has accepted full responsibility, I should like to know what he has got to say about it.

Mr. Briscoe

If one reads through Volume 148 of the Official Report, one can refresh one's memory on the discussion which took place on the last occasion when this Vote came before the House. On that occasion, the discussion, of course, was related mainly to the proceedings of the House when the National Development Fund was first introduced. I am glad to see now that the present Government has changed its attitude of mind in relation to this method of providing money for particular purposes as compared with the attitude it had when in opposition.

I, of course, can only speak in so far as this concerns the local authority with which I happen to be connected, namely, Dublin Corporation. I have no complaint to make, although I did utter fears on the last occasion. I want frankly to acknowledge now that as far as Dublin City is concerned the provision of money to the City of Dublin has been—I will not say overgenerous, but certainly not less generous than it was in the previous year. Very important work has been achieved of great value to the city, particularly in relation to the opportunity made available to us to provide employment for those of our people who had been unemployed for long periods and who had outlived their unemployment insurance and were on public assistance.

I want to say to the Minister that the approach made by the Dublin Corporation in this matter was completely in accord and in line with the outlook of the Fianna Fáil Government when this scheme was first mooted and introduced. Unemployment was expected. Fianna Fáil recognised that there was a position developing—a post-war position, if you like—and that provision should be made to help those of our people who could not find work and who had not gone abroad as emigrants. But it was felt that the fund should be used to the best advantage for the purpose of producing something of value to the nation—not in a reproductive manner, not something that you could sell, but some capital construction work.

I want to point out to the Minister that, while we have had roughly between 300 and 400 men constantly employed in Dublin as a result of the moneys made available under this scheme, we look with great apprehension to the immediate future, and we believe that there will be very large-scale increases in unemployment in the near future, and I would ask the Minister to indicate that, if such a situation should develop, greater consideration will be given in the shape of increased grants to the Dublin Corporation in order that greater numbers of our people can be employed without delay.

The present position is that we receive something like £450,000 in a financial year from this sum of £3,000,000. We have estimated accordingly for plans already approved by the Department to whom we have to send them for approval. As I say, we have no grievance because the principle has now been accepted of what was once described as a mythical fund. I think it was the Minister for Finance himself, when over here, who described it as a mythical fund.

Mr. Sweetman

It certainly is mythical, in so far as no money was left behind to feed it.

Mr. Briscoe

It was not a mythical fund, in so far as the City of Dublin was concerned.

Mr. Sweetman

It was a mythical fund, in so far as you people left nothing in it.

Mr. Briscoe

It is very good that we had to spend it. It is far better to vote money for a specific purpose and to spend it for that specific purpose, rather than vote money and not spend it at all, and leave it in the fund. There is nothing of a human approach in that.

Mr. Sweetman

It would be better to leave money for the commitments, you know.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister had to change his mind about it. A colleague of his, the Minister for Agriculture, referred to it as a "slush" fund. It has now become a respectable fund and is no longer mythical.

When this fund was first created, a special works department was set up in the Dublin Corporation, first of all, to design different types of work and it was sought to have these approved, even in advance, so that we could have in pigeon holes approved schemes which could be embarked on if a critical unemployment situation were suddenly to confront us. And I now say to the Minister that that sudden critical unemployment situation is about to confront us in the City of Dublin, and I press him to consider seriously a recommendation to the Minister for Local Government that, in that event, we should be allowed to build up the employment content of this department as originally envisaged, carrying up to 1,200 men per week in full employment, if they are found to be available and if they are in need of work and if they are on assistance.

We heard, when the Minister and his colleague were over here, that some of the works that we had engaged in or indulged in were stupid and wasteful. I am glad that there is now complete accord between the Dublin Corporation, the Department concerned, and the Department of Finance that the works we are doing are useful, not only from the point of view of the employment they give, but also from the point of view that they are improving the amenities of the city and are doing what I would call useful practical work on which moneys of this nature should be spent.

As I have said, we have approval for a certain amount. We have a number of schemes. Call them, if you like, long-term schemes—schemes that will take a rather bigger amount of money, schemes and plans which took longer to prepare. I want the Minister to take the line, in approaching this matter under the circumstances as they are now developing, that this National Development Fund—I see the Parliamentary Secretary is nodding his head in, apparently, complete disapproval of my prognostications. All I can say is I know the Parliamentary Secretary will be very tragically disappointed when he discovers that what I am saying is a correct appreciation of the circumstances which will confront us in the immediate future. I know what I am talking about in Dublin. If the Parliamentary Secretary knew a little bit more about Dublin, he probably would find that his own colleagues—his own colleagues in his own immediate Party and his colleagues of the Coalition who are actively concerned about this matter in the Dublin Corporation— would agree with me and would accept me as their spokesman as the chairman of the Public Works Committee.

Mr. Sweetman

I would have to have some proof of it before I would believe that.

Mr. Briscoe

Very well. I would say that the first essential proof that should convince any sensible man is that, when it came to the election of the chairman of this committee after the recent corporation elections, there was only one choice, and a unanimous choice at that. I believe that should be some proof to the Minister of what I am saying, and I am putting on record here something that can be challenged before the discussion on this Vote is completed. Perhaps the Minister might contact some of his colleagues to whom I have referred and ask them if they are prepared to come in here or to authorise him to come in here and refute what I am saying.

I am concerned, Sir, about another aspect, and it is a pity that the Minister for Local Government is not here. Perhaps I will not have developed my point before I move the Adjournment and, when I next raise it, he might be apprised of the fact that I am going to make some references, and not of a satisfactory nature, to certain attitudes by the Minister for Local Government. Will I move the Adjournment now, Sir?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two minutes left yet.

Mr. Briscoe

I am asking the Minister for Finance if he would be good enough to indicate to the Minister for Local Government that he might honour us with his presence here on the next occasion when this Vote is being discussed, as I have some references to make which strictly concern local government and for which the Minister for Finance is not responsible and cannot be held blameworthy. I am concerned about the attitude the Minister for Local Government is adopting to our employment of staff for which the corporation pays in full and for which there is no contribution from this fund in the shape of salaries or wages; and in our selection of persons to appoint to this special works department, we find great difficulty in getting an understanding of even their temporary employment, and in addition, there are questions of the remuneration attaching to senior officers of this department in connection with whose remuneration promises were actually made and have not been kept.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.