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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Apr 1956

Vol. 156 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 63—Health.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £6,737,940 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1957, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Árd Chláraitheóra) and certain services administered by that office, including grants to local authorities, miscellaneous grants and Grants-in-Aid.

The Estimate now before the House shows a net decrease of £17,110 on the amount voted for the year 1955-56. Most of the sub-heads show only slight variation from the previous year, but sub-head H—Grants to Health Authorities—is increased by £971,000, while sub-head K—Grant-in-Aid of the Hospitals' Trust Fund—shows a reduction of £1,000,000. Before making the customary review of the services in the current year, I would like to deal with the two last mentioned sub-heads.

The Estimate of £1,250,000 for Grant-in-Aid of the Hospitals' Trust Fund is a realistic assessment of the amount that will be needed to supplement the fund in 1956-57. As I mentioned last year, the subvention from the Exchequer in aid of the Hospitals' Trust Fund has been overestimated since 1953-54, when it was first decided that the Exchequer should contribute specially to the fund so that hospital building works would not be held up for lack of money. In 1953-54 the Estimate of £4,500,000 proved to be £1,600,000 more than the amount needed. In 1954-55, the amount estimated was £3,500,000 but only £2,000,000 was required. For the year just ended, the amount provided for this Grant-in-Aid was £2,250,000 but the amount which it was necessary to transfer from the Exchequer was £1,000,000 less than that figure. One and a quarter million pounds will again be sufficient this year to supplement the Hospitals' Trust Fund and, with this subvention, it is expected that the resources of the fund will be adequate to meet all the calls on it.

One of the reasons for the decreasing demands made on the Exchequer to aid the Hospitals' Trust Fund is the continuing and welcome increase in the income from the Hospital Sweepstakes. In 1950, the amount accruing to the fund from the sweepstakes was £946,000; in 1951, £1,160,000; in 1952, £1,256,000; in 1953, £1,584,000; in 1954, £1,774,000, and in 1955, £1,899,000. In estimating the Grant-in-Aid of the Hospitals' Trust Fund required for next year the income from sweepstakes has been taken to be the same as in 1955. In other words, with the addition of £1,250,000 from the Exchequer, the amount available for grants from the fund will be over £3,000,000 next year, of which over £2,000,000 will be spent on building works and about £800,000 on other grants, including payments to meet the deficits of voluntary hospitals. I would like to make it quite clear that in making these calculations I have not in any way cut the scope or speed of the hospital building programme.

The programme which was drawn up in 1948 is going forward without any diminution and with the least possible delay. It was originally hoped that it would be completed about now but this hope was not realised in circumstances already explained to the House. About two-thirds of the programme has, in fact, been completed and paid for, involving grants from the Hospitals' Trust Fund of about £20,000,000 in the last seven years, but it is now clear that the programme will not be finally completed until the early 1960's. Four major schemes, costing about £6,000,000, represent a large part of the programme still to be carried out. These are the new St. Laurence's, St. Vincent's and Coombe Hospitals in Dublin, and the new Regional Hospital in Cork. The planning of these projects has taken a much longer time than was anticipated but building work on them should be in progress during the current year. Certain urgent works not provided for in the original programme are also being proceeded with.

I now turn to the other main sub-head of the Estimate, i.e., the amount required for the grants payable to local health authorities which, at £7,946,000, represent an increase of £971,000 over the previous year. These grants meet half of the cost of the local health services and any increase in the sub-head reflects a corresponding increase in the amount met from local authority funds. In fact, the total cost of the services in the coming year is expected to be £15,580,000, an increase of about £2,000,000 on what they cost last year. This increase is due to a number of factors, the more important being the improvement of the services for the groups covered at present, the recent increases in salaries, wages and other costs, and the extension of the services to further groups.

As the House will be aware, I have recently made regulations, operative from the 31st March, the effect of which is to make persons in the middle income group eligible for hospital and specialist services. Mothers in the middle income group will also be entitled to a maternity service and to an infant welfare service for their infants up to six weeks of age. I will have more to say later about this extension of the services.

I think it important here to draw a distinction between the increases in local expenditure which can fairly be attributed to this extension alone and those which would have occurred whether or not the services were made available to the new classes. A large part of the increase of £2,000,000 is, in fact, attributable to improvements in existing facilities. The many new beds which have become available in local authority and voluntary hospitals, improvements in dental services, ambulance services and nursing services, increases in capitation rates to voluntary hospitals—and increases in salaries, wages and prices, account for over £1,200,000 of the increase. These factors would call for an increase of this order whether or not the new groups were admitted to some of the services. The estimated cost to the rates and the Exchequer of extending the services to the new groups is, in fact, £780,000.

At this stage, perhaps, I should refer to a matter which has occasioned some comment in recent weeks—that is, the effect of the health services on local rates. Some of the criticism on this score gives the impression that the total cost of these services is being borne on the rates. This, of course, is not the case. Next year, the Exchequer will pay almost £8,000,000 towards the cost of local health services, that is, half the total cost. It may not be realised that as late as the year 1947-48, the Exchequer contributed only about 16 per cent. of the amount spent on health services in that year. Nowadays each health authority receives annual grants from the Exchequer equal to the total paid from local funds. In other words, the State now contributes 50 per cent., as against 16 per cent., of the cost of the health services and the local authorities' proportion has gone down from 84 per cent. to 50 per cent. In terms of money, the State paid £900,000 in 1947-48 and the local authorities £4,700,000; each will pay about £7,800,000 in respect of the year 1956-57.

The State's contribution has gone up by £6,900,000 and the local authorities' by only £3,100,000. This latter figure represents an average increase of about 4/8 in the £ on the local rates since 1947-48. If we assume that the new State grant had not been introduced in 1947-48 and that no extensions or improvement of services took place since then, the local authorities' contribution of £4,700,000 to the costs would, in any event, have increased by up to one-third, or £1,500,000, to make allowance for cost of living and price increases since then. We may thus deduct this from the £3,100,000 and say that for about £1,600,000—i.e. for about 2/5 in the £ on average on the rates —the local authorities will have developed the major part of the new services under the Health Acts of 1947 and 1953. The increase of £2,000,000 in the gross cost of the services in the coming year will call for an average rate increase of about 1/6 of which only about 7d. will be due to extension of the services to new groups. I feel it necessary to draw attention to these points in view of some misleading criticism outside the House.

While I am on this point, I would like to make certain other facts clear. The services which are now being extended to the middle income group are based entirely upon the Health Act, 1953, which was drawn up and passed by the previous Government. I have made it known on a number of occasions that I opposed the passage of that legislation through this House, that I do not regard it as the best, or the ultimate in the matter of health legislation for our people and in our circumstances but that, in order to remove health services as far as possible from the realm of Party politics, I undertook to implement the Act virtually in full, and to try to make it workable and acceptable to all who are concerned.

We are now at the stage when the two most important groups of services have been extended to the middle income group—that is, the hospital and specialist, and the maternity and infant services. These improved and extended health services cost money, of course, and half of that cost falls on local funds. That position is not of my making; it arises directly from the Acts passed before the present Government took office. From the very outset it was made clear by my predecessor that the new services under the 1953 Act would be provided by local health authorities and that half the cost would have to be found by those authorities.

It is, therefore, rather surprising to find certain Opposition Deputies now lamenting the effect of the Act on local rates, and trying to place the blame for it on the present Government. I do not think that is a very fair approach to a difficult problem and I hope that, during the debate on this Estimate, these basic facts will not be in dispute.

Before going on to give some information on the operation of the various services in the past year, I propose, as is customary, to give the House some information on the vital statistics for 1955, which have recently become available. These figures are provisional at this stage. The number of births in 1955 was 61,575, giving a rate of 21.2 per 1,000 of the population, which was very slightly below the previous year's figure. Deaths were up a little at 36,525, giving a rate of 12.6 per 1,000 of the population. Marriages were also up slightly on the 1954 total, at 16,137, a rate of 5.5 per 1,000 of the population.

There has been a gratifying decrease, once again, in the figures for infant mortality and maternal mortality. Deaths of infants under one year of age totalled 2,249 as compared with 2,364 in 1954, making the 1955 rate 37 deaths per 1,000 births, which is the lowest on our records. There were 65 maternal deaths due to childbirth and pregnancy, four less than in the previous year and the lowest figure ever recorded in this country.

The number of deaths from all forms of T.B. has again fallen—from 1,005 in 1954 to 860 in 1955. This latter figure gives a rate of 30 per 100,000 population, which is much less than half the death rate recorded from this disease as recently as 1951. The same satisfactory trend is not, unfortunately, followed by cancer which continues to be one of the major health problems of our time. Deaths from this disease totalled 4,559 in 1955 giving a rate of 157 per 100,000 population, the same as in the previous year. Cancer deaths have shown a slight but continuing increase in recent years: this phenomenon is apparent in many other countries, too. We now have, however, in addition to the older established specialist cancer hospitals, one of the best-equipped cancer hospitals in Europe—St. Luke's Hospital, Rathgar—which is run by the Cancer Association of Ireland, and this association is in process of extending its services to provincial centres.

Deaths from many of the infectious diseases, other than T.B., have declined remarkably in recent years and, in some cases, it is possible to record further improvements in 1955 Measles accounted for 15 deaths, compared with 33 in 1954. Scarlet fever caused two deaths, one less than the previous year; and poliomyelitis caused five deaths, compared with 14 in the previous year. Another welcome improvement was in the deaths from diarrhoea-and-enteritis in children under two years of age, which reached a new low level of 152 deaths. On the other hand, there were increases in the number of deaths due to typhoid fever, whooping cough and diphtheria. Typhoid fever accounted for four deaths in 1955 as compared with one in the previous year; whooping cough caused 39 deaths, six above the 1954 figure; and diphtheria caused 14 deaths compared with five in 1954.

I would like to say a special word about poliomyelitis and diphtheria. My Department is keeping in touch with developments in other countries regarding the use of anti-polio vaccines and the matter is being considered at the moment by the Medical Research Council. With the help of a grant from the Hospitals' Trust Fund, the council is at present conducting a survey to determine the concentrations of poliomyelitis anti-bodies in children in this country. The results of the survey should be useful in deciding the age groups of the child population in which the use of an anti-polio vaccine would be most beneficial.

With regard to diphtheria, a disturbing feature was the increased incidence of this highly infectious disease last year. In 1955, there were 77 cases throughout the country, mainly in Dublin, involving 14 deaths. A few years ago, it might have been pardonable to think that victory over this disease had been almost achieved. In 1953, the number of cases had fallen to 29 and only three deaths were caused. This vast improvement on the epidemics prevalent up to about ten years ago was due mainly to the widespread immunisation of young children but, unfortunately, the very improvement in the position seems to have led many persons to believe that the disease had become almost extinct. The increased number of cases and of deaths last year has proved, if indeed proof were needed, that the danger of diphtheria is still present and that the more children who are left without the protection of immunisation the greater the risk of outbreaks and of deaths. I therefore take this occasion again to appeal to parents to make sure that all their children are immunised, if possible soon after reaching the age of six months. A combined immunisation against diphtheria and whooping cough can also be given if necessary.

While deaths due to infectious diseases in general have become fewer since pre-war years, the same cannot be said about fatal accidents. Last year accidental deaths of all kinds, including those due to transport accidents, falls, burns and scalds, drownings, etc., totalled 1,020. This is a staggering figure when compared, for instance, with the total of 860 deaths due to T.B. Apart from the deaths due to accidents, there are, of course, innumerable unrecorded injuries caused by accidents of various kinds, many of which leave people permanently injured. A great number of these deaths and injuries due to accidental causes, especially in the case of young children and old people, could be avoided with reasonable care and caution.

I now turn to the hospital building programme. Over the past year, from Donegal to Kerry, I have seen ample evidence of the progress made in providing first class hospital and clinic facilities throughout the country. Among the major projects completed were the regional sanatoria at Dublin and Cork, which between them supply 946 additional beds and the Regional General Hospitals at Galway and Limerick of 525 and 286 beds respectively. The new 133-bed Orthopaedic Hospital at Gurranebraher, Cork, and the new District Hospital at Cahirciveen came into commission some months ago. Another important addition to our hospital facilities was the new 80-bed genito-urinary unit at the Meath Hospital, Dublin. A newly reconstructed and extended wing at St. Kevin's Hospital, Dublin, has made 228 beds available for medical patients. The completion of the extensions at St. Mary's, Drumcar, and St. Raphael's, Celbridge, has made available extra accommodation in these homes for 530 mentally defective boys. A new establishment for 240 mentally defective girls was opened at Sligo and an extension for 180 boys at Our Lady of Good Counsel Home, Glanmire, County Cork, will be completed within a few months. Two new county clinics were opened at Wexford and Portlaoise, and 70 dispensaries were completed in various parts of the country.

As I mentioned earlier, work on four further major projects—the new St. Vincent's, St. Laurence's and Coombe Hospitals in Dublin and the new Regional Hospital in Cork—will be under way during the year.

The high operating cost of our extensive hospital system is already a matter of some concern, and the indications are that costs will be higher in the future, not only by the addition of new facilities but also because of the high running expenses when compared with the simpler but, of course, less suitable and less effective older buildings. In relation to our population we already have very extensive hospital facilities by comparison with other European countries and, before embarking on further building programmes, we will have to be satisfied that we are making the best use possible of existing hospitals. My Department has this question constantly in mind and with the solution of some of our health problems it will be possible, by a reallocation of buildings, to ease the pressure on certain types of hospital beds.

An example of this reallocation is the reversion to the Ballinasloe Mental Hospital Authority in December last of the premises at Castlerea, which had been in temporary use for several years as a sanatorium. These premises will accommodate about 450 mental patients and already nearly 300 have been transferred there from Castlebar, Sligo and Ballinasloe. The full range of modern treatment for mental illness will be provided at Castlerea, and direct reception of patients from a suitably defined area is being arranged. It is also intended that a unit of about 100 beds there will be allotted to mental patients in the western region who are suffering from T.B.

Other progress has also been made in improving accommodation for mental patients. New units have been completed at Portrane Mental Hospital, with 268 beds, including a special 20-bed unit for children. A new 80-bed unit at Grangegorman has been completed and occupied while preliminary work has commenced on another similar unit at the same hospital. Planning of an infirmary unit for Cork Mental Hospital is in the final stages. A similar unit for Ardee and admission units at Ardee, Carlow, Castlebar, Cork, Grangegorman and Waterford Mental Hospitals are being planned. Additional staff accommodation at Limerick Mental Hospital is nearing completion; the building of a nurses' home at Monaghan and a staff home at Mullingar has started, and work is about to commence on the nurses' home at Kilkenny; nurses' homes at Carlow, Cork and Ardee Mental Hospitals are being planned.

All of these projects will provide additional and improved accommodation for mental patients, but far more extensive improvements would be needed before the amenities at our mental hospitals could be said to be satisfactory all round. The small expert committee which I appointed last year to consider and make recommendations as to the practical steps which could be taken to relieve overcrowding in mental hospitals has submitted an interim report which deals with certain important aspects of this problem, namely, the extent to which the present overcrowding is attributable to the increased receptions and to the retention of senile patients, and the possibilities of reducing or controlling such receptions without detriment to the persons involved and of accommodating these old people elsewhere.

Receptions of persons over 65 years of age have increased from 345 in 1934 to 1,066 in 1954. The average resident population of mental hospitals aged 65 years and over increased from 2,566 to 4,717 over the same period. The committee's recommendations are being dealt with as a matter of urgency. It is hoped that as a result of other suitable residential accommodation becoming available, some relief of the present overcrowding in mental hospitals can be arranged.

I might mention that the numbers of voluntary and temporary patients received into mental hospitals during the past year again showed an increase on the previous year's figures, thus maintaining the upward trend which these figures have shown since the coming into operation of the Mental Treatment Act, 1945. In 1947, when the Act first came into operation, 376 voluntary patients and 772 temporary patients were received. The corresponding figures for 1955 were 2,033 and 2,449, respectively.

As regards mental hospital out-patient clinics, 1,704 sessions were held during last year, at which there were 4,823 attendances. The increases in the numbers of voluntary and temporary in-patients, and the large numbers of attendances at out-patient clinics, indicate a welcome willingness on the part of persons with mental disorders to seek the skilled treatment and advice which can substantially improve their condition. The percentage of recoveries amongst both voluntary and temporary patients continues to be very satisfactory.

I mentioned earlier the fact that deaths from T.B. have continued to decline and dropped to 860 in 1955. Though it is gratifying to be able to record this, there is no room for complacency. The T.B. death rates in England and Wales, Scotland and the Six Counties are still a good deal below ours. Moreover, we must take account of the number of new cases of T.B. coming under notice which, although showing a small but steady decline in recent years, still totals more than 6,000 a year. In other words, while the death rate from T.B. is decreasing noticeably from year to year, the number of new cases of the disease is still large enough to require prolonged and extensive effort if the disease is to be eradicated.

As all new cases of T.B. arise from contact with infectious cases, the large numbers of new ones found each year indicate that there are as yet many infectious cases not yet diagnosed. In tracing these undiscovered cases, improved field services—mass-radiography, tuberculin testing, etc.—play a most important rôle, but in addition to the intensive efforts of health authorities and their medical staffs, the maximum co-operation of medical practitioners and of the public at large is needed. An excellent free service is available throughout the country to help in diagnosis at the early stage, when treatment is most effective. Close co-operation with the local authority's medical staff will prove advantageous to the medical practitioner in the treatment of his private patients, and will help the chief medical officer of the area in tracing cases of the disease. The general medical practitioner, with his knowledge of his own patients, is in the best position to secure their co-operation in availing themselves of the facilities provided by the T.B. service and in inducing their families and other contacts to take the necessary precautions of having X-ray examination and, if necessary, B.C.G. vaccination. I arranged recently a meeting of chief medical officers and medical superintendents of sanatoria to discuss the T.B. problem and, as a result of their discussions, an intensification of the campaign against T.B. may be expected in all areas.

We now have sufficient beds for T.B. patients throughout the country, and health authorities are able to provide hospital accommodation virtually immediately it is required. In fact, the demand for beds has fallen in recent years, as the following figures will indicate. The number of beds required for adults suffering from respiratory T.B. was 5,143 on the 31st March, 1951. This figure increased each year to a total bed requirement of 6,052 on the 31st March, 1954. On 31st March, 1955, the number of beds required had fallen to 5,607 and, whilst I have not final figures for the end of last month, provisional figures indicate that the bed requirement fell to about 5,000 at that date.

In effect, therefore, the demand for beds for T.B. cases having reached a peak early in 1954 is now falling and, with the virtual completion of th regional sanatoria, is satisfied and it has been possible to close a number of hospitals formerly used for treating T.B. patients. I have already mentioned the Castlerea institution. The next largest which has been closed is Rialto Hospital, Dublin, with 279 beds. This is being converted for use as a general hospital connected with St. Kevin's Hospital, Dublin. The T.B. hospital at Mallow, with 149 beds, was closed in July last, when the patients were transferred to the new Regional Sanatorium at Sarsfieldscourt, and the premises will be used as a general hospital for the North Cork area. The 50 patients in the Pigeon House Sanatorium have been transferred to the Dublin Regional Sanatorium. The Auxiliary Sanatorium, Kilkenny, which accommodated 37 patients, was closed in October last and is now available for other purposes. The small T.B. hospital, St. Carthage's, Lismore, was also closed a few months ago, but for the present is being held in reserve. In addition to the places which have already been made available for other purposes, it is intended that Heatherside Sanatorium, County Cork (172 beds), Monaghan T.B. Hospital (144 beds), St. Kevin's T.B. Hospital, Rathdrum (38 beds) and Naas Sanatorium (44 beds) will also be closed as sanatoria and diverted to other uses. Heatherside Sanatorium will be transferred to the Cork Mental Hospital authority for the relief of overcrowding in the mental hospital. Monaghan T.B. Hospital will also be occupied by mental patients as an admission unit and to relieve overcrowding in Monaghan Mental Hospital. St. Kevin's, Rathdrum, will be used as an extension to the County Home and Naas Sanatorium will become a maternity hospital.

It is inevitable that a reorganisation like this should cause a certain amount of inconvenience to patients who may have to be transferred from one hospital to another, and to the staffs. Nevertheless, it is essential that the available hospital accommodation should be put to the best possible use in the interests of all patients for whom local health authorities are responsible.

The number of persons receiving maintenance allowances under the infectious diseases service on 31st March, 1955, was 8,529 and the amount paid during the 12 months ending on that date was £576,638. Most of those drawing these allowances are persons undergoing treatment for, or recovering from, T.B.

One important aspect of the T.B. problem is the rehabilitation of recovered patients to enable them to take up suitable employment when they have been discharged from hospital. The Rehabilitaton Institution, Limited, has centres for ex-T.B. patients in Dublin, Cork and Limerick for training women in garment making. There is also a centre in Dublin for training men in woodwork, and some furniture for the regional sanatoria was produced at this centre. Woodwork training for men is also provided at a residential centre in Toghermore, County Galway, which is under the control of a separate local committee.

This brings me to the wider problem of rehabilitating disabled persons generally. As the House will be aware, some months ago I invited a number of prominent people to become members of a special body which will investigate the extent of the various types of disablement in this country, and the facilities available for rehabilitation and which is charged with the duty of making recommendations regarding the best means of enabling disabled persons to secure suitable employment. This body, known as the National Organisation for Rehabilitation, will also examine the problem of finding employment for rehabilitated persons. The organisation has already appointed a full-time medical director. I understand that they have made a start on their activities and I hope that when introducing next year's Estimate I may be able to give the House more information regarding the progress made in this field.

I would not like to leave this matter without referring to the trojan work carried out on behalf of particular types of disabled persons by a number of voluntary bodies. The fact that it has been decided to set up a State-sponsored body to deal with this problem on a wider basis detracts in no way from the good work already done. A central body, designed specially to look into the national problem of all kinds of disablement and to make recommendations to local authorities and to the Minister for Health on how the problem should be tackled, is necessary but the voluntary bodies already in existence can help in no small measure by making available their expert knowledge on the subject. The new organisation includes representatives of a number of such voluntary bodies among its members. A grant is being made from the Hospitals' Trust Fund to enable the organisation to get on its feet.

Under the Health Act, 1953, health authorities are responsible for rehabilitating disabled persons in their area and they have power to provide equipment, training facilities, etc. When, as a result of the investigations of the National Organisation for Rehabilitation, we will have gained a clear appreciation of the problems of rehabilitating and training the disabled, we will be better equipped to see how these difficulties should be tackled, and the health authorities will be enabled to go ahead with their functions in this matter. In the meantime, since 1st October, 1954, they have been paying maintenance allowances to certain chronically disabled persons. Up to the 30th September, 1955, over 13,000 such allowances have been granted and nearly 3,000 were under consideration on that date.

I have already referred in a general way to some of the effects from the financial point of view of the extension of certain services—the hospital and specialist services and the maternity and infant welfare services. I think that this might be a suitable time at which to mention what the extensions are.

On a number of occasions in this House I have explained why I could not agree, in the summer of 1954, to seek to give effect to Section 15 of the Health Act, 1953, which relates to hospital and specialist services. My experience over the last 18 months confirms me in the view that to attempt to give effect to the regulations made by my predecessor providing for the introduction of those services in August, 1954, would have given rise to chaos. In fact, had I attempted to do so, I would have had to answer a charge that I had attempted to sabotage the Act. In arriving at my decision I was fortified by the recommendation of the National Health Council established by my predecessor.

With increased facilities and following long negotiation with the persons whose goodwill was necessary for the provision of the services, I decided towards the end of the last year that it would be possible to extend the services to the additional groups last month. Section 15 is now in operation for all the persons specified in that section, including the additional groups comprising dependents of insured persons, all those in the middle income group and the "hardship" cases. The same applies to Section 25 which relates to choice of hospital.

The specialist services will be free to all the eligible groups. The hospital services under Section 15 will be free to the lower income group (including insured persons and their dependents in that group) but persons outside that group must pay such amount as the health authority may decide, within a limit of 6/- per day, except in the "hardship" cases when the charge may be higher. This is in strict accord with the terms of the Act.

By making use of the facilities in the voluntary hospitals and with the development of specialist services at local centres, the facilities are now available, generally speaking, for a good service for all the eligible groups. There will still be gaps here and there in the services, but with a little patience on the part of all concerned, it should be possible to fill these gaps relatively quickly and I hope that by the time next year's Estimates are being debated in the House it will be possible to say that all aspects of the services are working smoothly and satisfactorily.

Up to recently, insured persons who satisfied certain contribution conditions have been entitled to completely free hospital services. Under the new arrangements, insured persons who are not in the lower income group may have to pay up to 6/- per day for those services. That position is as contemplated in the 1953 Act and I think the persons concerned have no legitimate grievance, since the contribution conditions have been modified in favour of additional groups of insured persons, and dependents are now eligible as such for the first time.

The free hospital service provided for treatment of T.B. and other infectious diseases will not be affected in any way by the extension of this new hospital and specialist service to the middle income group. Persons suffering from T.B. and certain other infectious diseases will still be able to obtain all necessary hospital or other treatment completely free of charge.

Up to recently only women in the lower income group were entitled to the free medical care service in respect of motherhood and to the free medical service for infants up to six weeks of age. Under the arrangements now in operation, women in the middle income group also have the benefit of these services, including midwifery services for domiciliary confinements and hospital services where necessary.

There will be no charge for hospital services for eligible women or for their infants as in the case of general hospital services under Section 15 for the middle income group and the "hardship" group. Section 25 (choice of hospital) will apply to maternity and infant hospital services in the same way as it applies to Section 15 patients.

There is an aspect of the maternity care service I would like to emphasise. I am advised that many of the complications arising at confinements have their origin in the failure of women to seek medical supervision and advice at an early stage in the pregnancy. There is no reason why any woman in the eligible classes should be without such supervision. The doctors who will provide the maternity service under agreements entered into by them with health authorities will be only too willing to see their patients at an early stage and to give them all the attention they need in the waiting period. In addition, in most areas women will have a choice of doctor available to them. I appeal, therefore, to women to make proper and intelligent use of the service in their own interests and in the interests of the unborn child. If they fail to do so, they are failing in their duty to themselves, to their families and to the nation and the public money spent on the service will have been largely wasted.

The 1953 Act provided for the extension of the maternity and infant services to women outside the lower and middle income groups subject to the payment of annual contributions. I propose to defer bringing this part of the Act into operation for the present. The House will recall that in January, 1955, I set up an advisory body to consider and report on the feasibility of introducing a scheme of voluntary health insurance against the wide range of modern medical costs, including the costs of maternity. This body may find it possible to recommend a scheme which would, if introduced, provide cover against the expenses of confinements. Many women might wish to meet these expenses by means of private insurance arrangements rather than to obtain the services needed from the health authority in return for an annual contribution under the Health Act.

Tentative proposals for the reorganisation of outdoor nursing and domiciliary midwifery services have been drawn up and issued to interested parties. Discussions have been held with them and no significant objections have been raised to the proposals. In formulating these proposals I have kept in mind the desirability of encouraging voluntary effort in this field. The existing voluntary nursing associations have given excellent service to the public in the past and one effect of my proposals should be to provide them with the opportunity of continuing to do so.

It is my policy to make available the services of a nurse, employed either by a voluntary association or by the health authority, in each dispensary district as soon as it conveniently can be done and, arising out of the extended maternity services, to enable all midwives who desire to do so to participate in the service so that eligible patients will, as far as possible, in addition to a choice of doctor, have a choice of midwife for domiciliary confinements. Private midwives will be paid a fee for each such case attended.

The scheme under which a maternity cash grant of £4 was payable by health authorities in certain circumstances continued during last year. From the commencement of these maternity cash grants on the 1st January, 1954, up to the end of September last, 48,000 grants had been paid. These grants are payable only to women in the lower income group, that is, generally speaking, women who are entitled to the free general medical services for the poorer sections of the community.

A circular was issued last year to local health authorities containing recommendations as to how child welfare clinics should be organised. There is now a statutory obligation on health authorities to provide a child welfare clinic in towns with a population of 3,000 or over. They may also set up child welfare clinics in smaller towns if they wish and some authorities have availed of this discretionary power. The total number of cities and towns in which child welfare clinics are held, or proposed to be held in the near future, is over 70.

The main groups at present eligible to receive dental services are the lower income group, children attending national schools, in respect of defects discovered at school health examinations, and children attending child welfare clinics, in respect of defects discovered at the clinics. The services provided for these groups are yet far from adequate and I have pressed all health authorities to improve the services administered by them. The reaction of health authorities generally has been favourable, improvements have already been made and at the moment 20 additional whole-time posts are in process of being filled. Where services are not sufficiently developed to provide full dental care for all those entitled to such care the unanimous advice I have received is that children should be given priority in the obtaining of dental care. I have accordingly advised health authorities that they should concentrate on the making available of an adequate service for children in preference to other eligible classes. When, therefore, the additional whole-time men are available their services will be utilised mainly for children. I would like to emphasise that these additional appointments will not solve the problem of the inadequacy of health authority dental services and that the need continues for considerably improved services. Until the position is improved materially for the existing eligible groups I do not propose to seek to extend dental services to additional groups. The Department of Social Welfare is, however, continuing its scheme of dental service benefits for insured persons.

Generally, the year which has just passed has, I feel, witnessed a very considerable achievement in regard to the vexed question of health services. Relations with the professional groups on which any Government must rely for the provision of services are now, I think, better than they have been at any time in recent years and with the implementation, virtually in full, of the Health Act, 1953, the acrimonious political controversy which has been a feature of the services should be at an end. Much still remains to be done in the matter of improving facilities, but for the future in the altered atmosphere, I think it should be easier to secure these improvements. On the question of helping groups outside the present eligible groups to gain access to health services which they may need from time to time, I have already mentioned the advisory body which is considering the question of voluntary health insurance and that I expect the report of that body shortly. I want to emphasise that the purpose of this body's deliberations is to consider whether and in what manner it is possible for the State to supplement the individual's efforts to provide for himself. The Health Act has been criticised because in some cases individual effort was in danger of being supplanted by the services it sought to provide under the aegis of the State. Now that it has been found possible to implement the main features of this Act the way is, I hope, clear to consider proposals under which—apart from necessitous classes—it will be the State's main concern in relation to the provision of personal health services to help each individual to provide for himself. The obvious way of doing this is by means of a practical scheme of health insurance. When the report of the advisory body is available it should be possible to plan for such future developments in an atmosphere of goodwill and co-operation.

The Minister, towards the end of his statement on this Estimate, appealed for an end to the controversy that had raged for so long over this health legislation. Earlier on in his statement he interpreted criticisms in relation to the administration of the Health Act as a continuance of controversy. Speaking for myself, at any rate, I have always been in favour of the Health Act. I have always been free, and still am, to criticise certain aspects of it and certain impacts of it particularly on local authorities. If there has been very serious controversy in the past, it was certainly not from this side of the House when the Health Act of 1947 was introduced and when it was implemented further in 1953.

Now that the Minister has responsibility, and for the time he will have responsibility for administering the Health Act, perhaps he will accept the position that, as regards those who did not oppose the Health Act but felt themselves bound to fight for certain things, that is not a continuance of the controversy over the Health Act but just a filing of criticism against a Department of State in relation to the Act as it affects local authorities who have to play their part, not only in implementing it but in paying for it by raising the necessary money from the ratepayers.

The Minister recently, when he received a deputation, produced a number of figures based on percentages and he has again referred to them to-day. He has made the comparison between the percentage of health administration costs previously borne by local authorities in 1947-48, when 82 per cent. of their cost was borne by the local authority and only 18 per cent. by the State, and the percentage costs to-day which are on a 50-50 basis. The Minister wants to suggest by that that local authorities have saved the difference between 50 per cent. and 82 per cent. Of course, it is a ridiculous and childish attempt further to confuse the situation.

In 1947-48 the valuation of the City of Dublin was slightly above £2,000,000 and the rate levied by the local authority was 25/- in the £, so that the total income of the local authority was somewhere around £2,770,000 from rates. To-day the valuation is over £3,000,000 for the whole area and the rate that will now be fixed will bring in over £6,000,000. If we take that for the purpose of argument, is 80 per cent. of £2,770,000 not less than 50 per cent. of £6,000,000? Is that not clear to the Minister?

The expert on finance who went down to Clonmel recently and told us not to believe there was any scarcity of money ought at least to keep out of this, because on this I know what I am talking about and the Deputy does not.

It sounds a bit childish.

If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to prolong the agony to that side of the House by interjections I will welcome them, but I want to make a serious approach to this matter and to make an appeal to the House. I have said that this type of compilation thrown at the public is confusing and misleading and proves nothing; yet it is suddenly thrown to a deputation and now flung across the House. In 1947-48 the Health Act was not even implemented and when a national Health Act is introduced, is it not to be expected by the public that, as national policy, the national Government will seek to bear its part of the cost of such Health Acts and not by peculiar devices make savings of payments previously borne by them and transferred to the extent of 50 per cent. to the backs of the ratepayers?

I mentioned last year and several times throughout the year that at one time hospitalisation of insured workers was the responsibility of the Government. The cost of that to the State, over and above the payment by way of the insured worker's stamps, represented a loss to the national Exchequer of a sum in excess of £300,000 per year. Whether it was as a result of action taken by the Minister's predecessor or by the Minister himself is beside the point; the fact is that the care of these insured workers was transferred recently to the local authorities.

On 1st August, 1954, under direct regulations made by my predecessor.

I said "transferred recently" and 1954 is sufficiently near to be referred to as "recently".

Knowing the Deputy, I thought he might be referring to the 31st March of this year.

I was not. I said I mentioned it last year. The Minister must be a little careful to-day in trying to put me off the track by surprise interjections, as to which, I shall refer later, because to-day I have come along, having considered carefully all the points I intended to raise so that I would be sure of my points.

That is a welcome change.

Prior to 1954, a loss of £300,000 in connection with insured workers was borne by the national Exchequer. That is not to be contradicted, I take it. As a result of the transfer of responsibility in this matter to local authorities, in 1954, and of the fact that the Government is responsible for only 50 per cent. recoupment of the cost, the Exchequer has saved 50 per cent. of that amount. We are agreed on that.

In that connection, I feel that the Government is bound to consider a request that, because of that new burden on the ratepayers as a result of the enactment of legislation which made that transfer of responsibility possible, the State should be prepared to say: "Very well, in that connection we will give you an additional grant over and above 50 per cent. of the cost." I make this request now, particularly in reference to an Estimate which is down by £1,000,000, whereas the rates are everywhere up as a result of the Health Act, that the Minister should consider giving back to the local authorities that £150,000 by way of grant over and above the 50 per cent. recoupment.

The Minister referred to the fact that included in the Estimate is a sum of £800,000 which includes payments to hospitals for deficits. I do not think the Minister will dispute that that is in his statement. Will the Minister deny that last year his payments to hospitals to meet deficits was in excess of £800,000?

It is not in this Estimate anyway. It is in the fund.

The Minister has stated——

Yes. He referred to the payments from the fund.

It does not matter to a local authority where the Minister's money to pay deficits comes from if the local authority has to pay its share by way of a charge for beds.

There was a special payment towards the end of last year.

So I am right. There was a sum of £600,000 estimated last year. The Minister found it cost him £250,000 more. Therefore, the deficit account last year reached £850,000. The Minister has not said how much of this £800,000 is for deficits. I do not know whether it is estimated at £800,000 or £600,000 for this year.

I am coming to point No. 2 of criticism of administration of the Health Act—the creation of an adverse situation for ratepayers and local authorities. The Minister, through the power he has under the law, signs a document and says to local authorities that, as from such and such a date, the amount of money they will pay for beds for the poorer people for whom they have responsibility will be increased from 16/- to 18/-. The local authorities are not consulted, are not asked any questions about it.

I should like to say to the Minister, through the Chair, that there is quite a number of public representatives who, as well as serving on a local authority, also serve on hospital boards and they know the situation from both angles. What does an increase of 2/- in respect of a bed mean? It means in the case of the Dublin Corporation, that they have to find an extra £59,000 per year of which we get back 50 per cent. from the Minister. In other words, it costs us roughly £30,000 which is the equivalent of nearly 3d. in the £ on the rates.

It is not so long ago that the bed charge was 8/-. It was doubled to 16/-. Now, as deficits in the hospitals increase, instead of those deficits being met out of the Exchequer, they are met as to 50 per cent. by the local authority.

In this connection, may I point out to the Minister that, when Fianna Fáil left office in 1948, they had established a fund of some £6,000,000 to £7,000,000 which had been saved from the income from the Hospitals' Trust Fund and which had been invested specifically for the purpose of bringing in money to meet hospital deficits, amongst other things? After the advent of the Coalition Government in 1948, that fund was almost wiped out and, as a result of the commitments the Government made after the change of office in 1951, it was completely wiped out. The income which was originally designed to meet this very position was dissipated and the capital moneys were taken and used for the building of hospitals elsewhere. I say that a Government which has taken those steps has no right to come to a local authority and say: "You must now meet your share of these deficits and, as they increase, we will increase your charges."

I think the action taken was right and the person who took it is now a member of your Party.

The Minister says it was right?

Perfectly right.

What is right?

To spend money in providing beds for our people.

Does Deputy Briscoe object to that?

It was not done by the Minister's predecessor in the Fianna Fáil Government. It was done by the Minister for Health in the 1948 Coalition Government.

Do you think that was wrong?

I say, entirely wrong.

You object to the funds being used for the provision of beds?

The Labour Party can keep out of this because they will have enough to answer for in the next few weeks when unemployment will be rife in the city, because of their action.

Do you object to that— funds being used to provide beds?

Tell us what you object to?

I say that a prudent Minister for Finance, realising that there would be deficits as a result of increased treatment of poor people who previously had no treatment, would realise that it would be unfair to have the burden of cost unevenly divided and would make provision for the investment of the millions of pounds of money to bring in money to pay for these people. I object to the dissipation of these millions of pounds, with the result that these deficits exist which the ratepayers are now asked to meet because of a mistake which the Government made.

Surely the building of hospitals and the provision of beds is not the dissipation of funds?

That is the responsibility of the Government. We are in favour of the building of hospitals, and I once, by question and answer in this House, adduced conclusively that, under the Fianna Fáil Government, more hospitals were built than would be built by any of their successors, no matter how long they were in office.

You should think of some of the larger sanatoria.

The sheep would still be grazing in Sarsfield's Court.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to make his speech.

I am saying this, and I say it emphatically, that it was a grave mistake for the Coalition or inter-Party Government to have dissipated that £7,000,000 which was bringing in a substantial amount of money and which saved the ratepayers the need to subsidise the deficits which arise in the administration of hospitals.

The cat is out of the bag now.

The cat is out of the bag. If the Minister will go over the records of this House, he will find a definite undertaking from his then colleague that that was in the knowledge of the Government and that these deficits would be met out of taxation. I am telling you it is on the records of this House. I raised it then, and it is no use for the Minister to shake his head now. If he likes to say that is not so, I will get the record and read it for him. That is the difference between what Deputy Casey has in mind and what I have in mind.

I am not objecting to the treatment of our people in hospitals. We are responsible at least for this Health Act and we stand over it. It is the colleagues of the members of the Labour Party who opposed it and fought strenuously against it and between them and us the controversy raged to which the Minister has referred.

That is point No. 2. I am not going to quarrel with the Minister as to whether it is 7d. or 10d. in the £. A couple of weeks ago he said 7d.——

Do not misquote me; I said 7d. generally, which, in Dublin, would not exceed 10d. I can send the Deputy a copy of my speech and he can see that I said "generally".

I know; the Minister to-day said generally the cost of the new services would not exceed 7d. He did not say: "except in the case of Dublin". But he did say when we were down with him on a deputation— and I am not quarrelling with him over that—that the new services now being brought in would not cost possibly more than 10d. in the £ in the City of Dublin. That is a fact. We are not grumbling about that; but what we are grumbling about it that, behind the backs of a local authority like Dublin, which has to pay so much out of rates from its citizens for the administration of these health services, the Minister makes agreements with the Medical Association and with the hospitals for payments to them for services already existing for years and for which they got no payment before. We have to pay 50 per cent., but we are told nothing about it.

That is unworthy even of the Deputy.

What is meant by "unworthy"? Is it not a fact?

That is completely unworthy of the Deputy.

Is it not a fact that the Minister himself made these agreements, without consulting the representatives of the local authorities?

You wanted the Health Act and you have got it now.

That is right; you have the ship and you are trying to run it on the rocks.

These interruptions should cease.

I repeat the Minister made agreements for payment of fees for services already being given, without consulting those who had to pay for them. What does this mean? We are suddenly told in the City of Dublin—as, I suppose, every other local authority is told—"As from now, you will please provide a sum of money to put 15 per cent. of the cost of your beds into a pool out of which the hospital staffs in voluntary hospitals will now be paid." I do not know yet the full terms and conditions as to how this is going to work out. The 15 per cent. pool is estimated for the coming year to be £75,000 of which we recoup half, another 3d. in the £ on the rates for an additional cost, not for a new service, but for payment for a service which was already in existence and for which previously there was no charge.

As the Lord Mayor of Cork, Deputy McGrath, points out, it really means that your bed is no longer 8/- or 16/-; if you take the new figure, it is 18/-, plus 15 per cent.

Which means very good service for a very cheap price.

But should the service not exist before you pay for it?

We were told that, when the Health Act was going through——

When the Health Act was going through, there was a state of chaos in this country and what is worrying Deputy Briscoe is that the chaos is no longer there.

The Minister for Health is one of the best organisers of chaos.

Well, I organised this chaos out of existence.

The Minister has organised it all right; he has made chaos throughout the country. I am protesting against the Minister having made agreements to pay 15 per cent. in fees to staffs of hospitals who always gave their services free.

The Deputy knows that that is not so.

The Minister's predecessor was not prepared to pay these fees and these demands. The whole objection to the Health Act was not on moral grounds at all, but on the grounds of the fees to be paid to the medical profession. The Minister's predecessor was not prepared to meet these demands, but the Minister did meet them, and that is how he got agreement with the medical profession. We now have to pay them, without having been consulted and without knowing how the scheme is going to work.

Specialists were always attached to the voluntary hospitals. They had certain privileges and rights in these hospitals with regard to having their own beds, their private patients and students, and there were clinics held. We now find that the Minister has agreed that these specialists will be paid, as far as Dublin is concerned, for their services in the out-patients' departments, services which have been given since the hospitals were established. They are to be paid £50,000 a year for these services which are to be called sessions. Fifty per cent. of £50,000 is £25,000 and that is another 2d. in the £ on the rates. We were not consulted about this and it is not a new service.

The next thing we find is that the Minister has decided on a new method of payment for the X-ray services. If some of us had not been members of hospital boards, we would not have known what was going on, because Dublin Corporation was not consulted and was not made aware of how the new scheme was going to operate. I found out that a circular was issued to the hospitals giving them instructions as to how the scheme was to work. On last Monday I spent the whole afternoon with the officials of the Dublin Corporation trying to find out how they estimated that the increased cost to fall on the ratepayers was £33,000, less 50 per cent. They did not know how that amount was estimated and I had to get in touch with a Dublin voluntary hospital and ask them for a record of an average monthly working of their X-ray service.

I found that in some cases an X-ray examination takes from half an hour to 35 minutes, if the matter is a serious one, and, in other cases, it only takes about five minutes. For the sessional purpose, one could safely reckon that four people could be dealt with in an hour. Now the question arises as to how the payment for the X-ray services is to be operated. Is the radiologist to remain in the hospital for the three hours of the session for which the pay is 4½ guineas, plus half a guinea for X-rays? Or can he take home the X-ray photographs and read them at home, and will he be paid for the time he takes to read them and to prepare his report on them?

The Minister is making all these regulations, but he is not consulting the people who have to administer those regulations and who have to pay the cost of them. The Minister has gone through a whole series of these things, without saying to the local authorities: "This is what I have been asked to do; this is what I think I ought to do; this is what I am going to do; what have you to say about it?"

We find that outside our control there are institutions which make demands on the local authorities. These are statutory institutions and, in the City of Dublin, we have the Dublin Board of Assistance. These institutions are also involved under this Health Act and all we know in the Dublin Corporation this year is that we are being asked to pay to the Dublin Board of Assistance £98,000 more than we had to pay last year.

Has the corporation not got representatives on these bodies?

We have. They are statutory bodies. They are also told: "That is what you have to do." If there was any consultation with them, or from them to us, or a round table conference, we might have some idea of what we were doing and what the money required from us was to be expended on.

I presume that the Dublin Board of Assistance prepares its own estimates and that the Dublin Corporation representatives on the board of assistance have a say in the matter.

There is a commissioner for the Dublin Board of Assistance. He runs the hospitals and makes up his estimates on the basis of what he is ordered to do in regard to health matters by the Department of Health. There is no use in Deputy Casey trying to pull the Minister out of the position I am trying to place him in.

I am interested in what you are saying.

What I am objecting to is the principle that is now being established of a Department of State, which is jointly responsible with the local authority for the running of the health services, not consulting with that local authority. The Department which is so jointly responsible should consult with the representatives of the people as to the operation of these schemes, the cost of which falls heavily on the ratepayers.

There is nothing in the Health Act to say that the Minister must consult with anybody.

The Health Act does not say that the Minister should not consult with anybody. The Health Act does not prevent the Minister from extending to local authorities the courtesy of saying to them: "I am going to do this and what have you to say about it?" Where does the Health Act authorise the Minister to go back over retrospective services and say: "Because of the Health Act, I am now going to make you pay for something which you got for nothing before."

The Minister is acting under the Health Act.

If Deputy Casey believes that, what I am saying must have some justification. If he feels that the Minister is entitled to do this because it was not specifically stated in the Health Act, as a public representative of a local authority there was nothing to stop him when he was, I believe, with his colleagues in the Labour Party, pressing for the implementation of this Health Act asking for an amendment to it that such consultation should be made. I know the Fine Gael Party, if they had not been pressed by the Labour Party, would never have implemented this Act to the extent that it is being implemented.

They would have sunk it and when they could not sink it they tried to drive it on the rocks.

I accept responsibility for having voted for the Health Act in 1953.

Do not run away from it.

I am not running away.

Because you will not be let run away.

I am trying to show how the Minister behind closed doors got agreement from the medical people to operate the Health Act at a cost to the ratepayers, through their local authorities, without their having being consulted. In connection with the health side the mental hospitals have sent in a statutory demand for another £33,000 as have also the fever hospitals for another £33,000. There was a time when each local authority would estimate its own expenditure and all the estimates would certainly be subject to examination and control.

The Deputy referred to some figure in the Estimate. Where is that figure?

I said it was the Dublin Corporation estimate in which is to be included an additional £33,000 for additional charges in the administration of the Health Act in fever hospitals.

Surely the Deputy would discuss the national Health Estimate and not merely the Dublin Corporation estimate?

I am discussing the national Health Estimate in so far as it affects the premier local authority.

The Deputy is not at a meeting of the Dublin Corporation now.

What does Deputy McGrath think of that one?

I do not know what the Deputy is talking about.

The premier local authority?

Yes, they are.

I have to represent here the people who elected me to this House.

To this House—yes.

I have also to represent a portion of them in the Dublin Corporation.

Then go to the Dublin Corporation and do not talk about it here.

I will talk about it here until I am blue in the face provided I am in order according to the Chair; I will not stop if the Minister does not like it. Having given certain figures here, we have a just claim—I take it that other local authorities may feel the same—for an additional contribution from the central funds towards the cost of administering the health services in the City of Dublin if only to the extent of those services which are now costing money and which previously cost nothing or where there is a transference of obligations from the Central Fund on to the backs of the local authorities for the purpose of making savings in the national Exchequer. That is the case I make and I believe it will be accepted by a lot of other people. Our estimates in the City of Dublin this year for health services may rise to the equivalent of some 2/9 in the £, nearly 2/- of which is not for new services but for commitments made to a large extent by the Minister in agreements in regard to which we had no say whatever.

That is not so. The full effect of the cost of the new services in Dublin will be under 10d. in the £.

I have said that.

With due respect, the Deputy has not said that.

I said before that I was not quarrelling with the Minister's estimates.

The Deputy may have intended to say that, but what he said was——

The Minister is not trying to interrupt Deputy Briscoe, but is endeavouring to put him off.

If he wanted your protection he would say so. The Deputy knows a great deal more about this than Deputy Aiken does.

We know the O'Higginses and the game they were always at.

You must be personal at all costs.

May I repeat again that the impact of the new services, plus the new fees for old services will cost the ratepayer of Dublin somewhere about 2/9 in the £ altogether?

And will be covered by 10d.

Does the Minister really believe that the new services, plus the fees he is agreeing to pay, are covered by 10d.?

The Minister is completely wrong. Let him ask his legal adviser. If the Minister would take up a pencil he would find out that an increase of 2/- per day for beds——

That is not a fee but capitation.

It is an agreement between the medical men and the hospitals.

That has nothing to do with the health services. It has nothing to do with the new services.

It is only saving the Exchequer by pushing it on to the rates.

The Deputy should keep quiet. He is a member of a Government who decided to do that as a deliberate matter of Government policy. He knows nothing about the matter.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to make his speech.

The Minister has admitted what I am saying—that the increase in bed charges is for the purpose of reducing the deficit charges to the Government.

It is part of the health policy decided upon by Deputy Briscoe's Party.

The Minister has admitted——

I am carrying out in that connection the policy of my predecessor. If he were speaking he would not run away from it.

The Minister will now be telling us that he is carrying out Fianna Fáil policy in everything.

It is being received in the worst possible grace.

You are trying to create chaos. That is all.

I say emphatically that of the 2/9 increase in the burden on the backs of the ratepayers of Dublin in connection with the administration of the Health Act generally, 10d. is due to new services and the balance is due to new charges on old services.

That is not so.

The Minister says that is not so but I want to show him it is so. If you add up £59,000 new charges on beds to save deficit charges to the State; £75,000, the 15 per cent. pool, to pay the staff of hospitals who previously operated without these fees; £50,000 for specialist fees in the clinics and £33,000 extra because of a new method of payment for X-ray service, you will find that comes to £217,000.

The total cost is £220,000. Would the Deputy divide his figure by two?

That makes it about £108,000. Does the Minister know how much that sum represents on the rates of Dublin?

Less than 10d.

Those items alone——

That is what I said.

Now Deputy Briscoe has proved me right. Will he be man enough to admit that?

Does the Minister not realise there is a figure here—extension of services and increase of classes, £76,000—that I did not include in my figure; and that is 7d. for new services. Does the Minister want to add that now to the 10d. and find out how much it is?

There is no point in trying to help the Deputy, because he either closes his mind or refuses to use it. He might be a lot better off, if Deputy Aiken would leave him alone.

The Minister might get advice from his officials there.

The Deputy should not refer to officials.

Bonus on salaries will cost us £50,000; extension of services to new classes, £76,000. I left those two figures out. I left out the £6,000 for child guidance. I was only picking out new charges on old services, amounting to a considerable sum of money, and I was pointing out that all this had been done without any consultation whatsoever with the elected representatives of local authorities. I object strenuously to that and I say it was part of the bargain struck by the Minister with the medical profession in order to get their goodwill in the implementation of this Bill.

Certainly. Is there anything wrong with that? Does the Deputy want to have these services operating smoothly and well, or does he not? Does he want a state of hostility and strife between a Department of State and the medical and nursing profession?

I am not saying I want that.

What does the Deputy want?

What I am saying is that the Minister was only one party to the paying side.

I happen to have statutory responsibility as Minister for Health, responsibility given to me by the Deputy's Party.

And, if the Minister did not want that statutory responsibility, could he not have changed it very easily?

The people put the Government here and the Government appointed me, and I have to do the job.

The Minister has the power to change it, and he has not changed it.

There is another point I want to make. We believe there is need for some kind of residential qualification in connection with the treatment of people under this Health Act. We have knowledge of things that are happening. For instance, a person employed in Dublin brings up a relative from the country. He, or she, gives an address, care of this person, who is resident in the city. He, or she, then gets all these services and the Dublin Corporation has to pay for them. Now we do not want him or her not to be treated, but we believe that, in the case of a person receiving treatment on that basis, the charge should be transferred back to the local authority in whose area that person lives. We have cases of people coming up here seeking work and they are not here any longer than a matter of a few days when they qualify for treatment at the expense of the Dublin ratepayers.

Does the Deputy want to create another Border?

I am afraid the Parliamentary Secretary is very dense. I said I wanted regulations with regard to residential qualifications. I said that the person could be treated here, but that the charge should properly be borne by the local authority in whose area the person is normally resident.

Can the Deputy not be decent and do it properly?

Dublin has so many Corkmen in it that I think we can be classed as being very "decent" indeed. I think the Minister might have consulted us in relation to this additional charge on hospital beds. I have had a calculation made and, taking it that there are 365 days in every year—I hope nobody will dispute that——

In most years.

The Deputy is thinking of Leap Year; maybe it was good to him! Taking it at 365 days, that means there are 1,885,955 bed days in Dublin. At 16/- per day, that means that the hospitals will have £1,508,000 per year income from all their beds, there being 5,167 beds. Now, the corporation has gone into the figures over a period of years in relation to the number of cases for which the corporation is responsible and we estimate that our cost of institutional treatment for the period 1955-1956 at 16/- per day was £496,000; in other words, we used in the City of Dublin, of all the beds for which the citizens pay through the rates, roughly 32 per cent. We believe, therefore, that before we are mulcted in the extra 2/-, there should be some examination into what happens to the other 68 per cent. of beds in the Dublin hospitals. How are they occupied? What fees are charged? Why should we, who receive a smaller percentage of the total beds available, have to meet the increase on its present basis, a basis calculated without any knowledge on our part?

Surely the Minister must now realise that there is another side to this matter. I do not believe he knew until this very minute that we only use 32 per cent. of the available beds in the City of Dublin. Surely we are entitled to know how the other 68 per cent. are charged and to what extent, if any, they are subsidised quietly, while not qualified for such, at the expense of the Dublin local authority. We would like an examination of all these things. We would like to know whether we will be asked to pay in the dark, as it were. I want to tell the Minister now that there is a certain temper running in our local authority and, if the Minister proceeds on these lines, he may find himself some day faced with the position where we will say we refuse to adopt that part of the Health Act payment; and the Minister will then have to deal with the position under the law.

What the Deputy is aiming at is to prevent health services being provided for the people in this city.

I am not. Does the Minister seek to suggest by his interjection that the medical profession——

The Deputy should be ashamed.

——attending our hospitals would refuse to treat the poor of Dublin if, for instance, we refused to pay this £50,000, sessional fees, to the specialists? Is the Minister suggesting they would do that? That is what he is suggesting. What I am suggesting is that this is a mean way of transferring responsibility from the State on to the backs of the ratepayers, and transferring to them also charges previously borne by the State and charges previously not in existence for services which were not in existence. This catch-cry that the new services are only costing 10d. and the old services only cost so much is quite another story.

I want to bring some other points to the Minister's attention. In our estimates—perhaps the Minister will make a note of this; it was mentioned to him at a conference by the city manager, but I do not think he thought it of sufficient importance to make any comment on it—we have to provide this year £46,000 for payments made in connection with health services now disallowed by the local government auditors. Mark this: these are transactions which took place five years, and over five years ago, and, because the local government auditors are behind in their work and are now only auditing our books for five years ago, they are now disallowing all kinds of health payments and are thereby putting on the backs of the ratepayers another £46,000, of which the Minister will not have to pay 50 per cent. Is this another device of saving the national Exchequer——

I have no responsibility for the arrangement of Local Government Orders.

The Minister for Health must have responsibility——

Perhaps the Deputy would permit me to point out to the Chair that I have no responsibility for the arrangement of Local Government Orders.

The Minister states he has no responsibility in the matter.

May I put it this way? If an expenditure of £46,000 on health services had been previously incurred, and the Minister normally would have to pay £23,000 of that, the 50 per cent. recoupment, is he not sufficiently interested in some way in seeing that the auditors, who audited health payments of which he has to pay 50 per cent., should be up to date in their work?

I have no responsibility for the arrangement of Local Government Orders.

Might I ask if that Order was carried out five years ago, is it not likely that the surcharge would take place?

No, because I have a note here that most of the officials concerned in this particular transaction are no longer available and are unable to answer what it is all about.

May I repeat for the third time that I have no responsisibility for this? It is a matter the Deputy can raise on the Local Government Estimate.

The Minister has already pointed out that he has no responsibility.

I am not saying that he has responsibility.

Then the Deputy should not continue in that strain.

If in fact the ratepayers will have to pay this £46,000 delayed action disallowance, will the Minister pay his portion or will he say under the rules, "I get out of my contribution"? I will have to deal with it in the normal way. I will probably have to raise is with Local Government. It is certainly a scandalous situation.

Is the Deputy going to be allowed to deal with a matter in respect of which I have no responsibility?

I will come to something which does concern the Minister, I hope.

For a change.

I think I have been very close to the rails. I will deal now with the matter of deficits in hospitals. This concerns the Minister. I was on an inspection only last Thursday in Hume Street Hospital, of which body I happen to be a governor. It was the turn of a colleague and myself to have an inspection of the place. What did we find? When we went into the secretary's office he was glued to the telephone, and he could not leave his seat because he was awaiting a call from the Department of Health to tell him when he was going to get his interim payment of the deficits. If he did not get it that day or the next day, he would not be able to pay wages next week. He had reached the limit that the bank had allowed him and the payment was overdue. Maybe Easter intervened—normally he would have got the cheque on the 1st April—but the fact is that he did not get his payment and he was "all of a dither."

That happens in other hospitals. I asked the Minister previously—I think I was on a deputation to him—could he not design some method of accepting an estimate of what the deficit is likely to be for any particular hospital and to say to them: "We will pay you an amount on account each month and at the end of the year, when you send in your books for audit, we will pay the balance then." There is a number of hospitals concerned and I do not know what messages have to go down and back for payments, but the vicious part of it is that the average deficit of a hospital is not below £10,000 or £20,000 per year and they have to pay bank interest on an overdraft while they are waiting to get payment in respect of the deficit. In each deficit there is, of course, an addition as a result of the high interest charges for the overdraft.

Surely the Minister could arrange to say to these hospitals: "We have now long experience of each of you. We know what your deficit is likely to be. In the case of Hume Street, if it is to be £12,000 this year, less an allowance off the deficit, because you are allowed to take in certain stocks of medicine which you previously had to hold in reserve to meet a deficit, we will give you £900 a month and at the end of the year, after the certified audit, we will give you whatever balance is due." Could the Minister not do this instead of having the present position?

These hospitals are being run by public-spirited people who give their time and their services free, who are interested in the welfare and the treatment of the patients and who are very worried when they go on an inspection of a hospital, or go into a board meeting, and the registrar or secretary states: "We are up to our necks again; there is a letter from the banks saying we must not issue cheques; we cannot pay wages; what are we going to do?" The Minister will have to do something about that.

I have increased the capitation payments by 2/- per day and I have increased the deficit payments—the amount payable for deficits.

What does the Minister mean by debit on payments?

No, the deficit payments. The amount to be paid in reduction of deficits was increased this year as was also the capitation payment.

It was increased by the device I referred to before—putting a portion of it on the backs of the ratepayers—but the Minister has not speeded up the payments.

I will give the Deputy full particulars later.

I am asking the Minister to speed up the payments to avoid this critical situation developing every half year and to avoid the unnecessary payment of interest on large overdrafts.

It has been done as far as is possible. Every effort is being made to speed up the matter.

The Minister says every effort is being made but there is a very simple formula which I would recommend to him. Take any hospital he likes which has a deficit. His officers will determine the average annual deficit for that hospital is so much, subject to a certain variation. If it is £12,000 in a particular hospital they would normally be entitled to £1,000 per month. I say to him, "Give them £750 a month and hold the balance until the end of the year".

I would not do that.

You could not do that?

I would not do that. I do not think it would be right because I hope that deficit will be reduced—that the amount to which the hospital is entitled at the end of the year will be reduced as the years go on. It is not my intention to tell every hospital: "You can spend as much money as you like because you are going to be given a blank cheque".

That is the Minister's interpretation of what I am saying.

I think it would be the effect.

I have been a member of hospital boards for nearly 30 years and hospitals will always work at a deficit. At one time, before the advent of the hospitals sweeps money, every hospital was in debt and every hospital every year had a flag day or a hospital pound day. There were many bequests to hospitals; it was a regular business to try and keep these voluntary hospitals on their feet. After the advent of the Hospitals' Trust, after the various changes, improvements and so on, it became impossible to run a hospital on business lines. You cannot say to a patient: "If you do enter a hospital the charge in this hospital is X pounds per week".

The Minister is trying to meet two things. He is trying to meet a reduction in his deficit payment and is also very seriously auditing all the accounts and charges of everything a hospital does. Nobody objects to that, so long as the deficits exist, but the Minister has made provision in his Estimate for a sum of £800,000, some of which is included to meet deficits. What the amount is, I do not know. Surely to goodness, in the year in which this is taken into account, the Minister might say: "Very well; I will consider all methods of bringing about alleviation where distress exists in that matter". Remember that the senior medical staff join with the governors in the management of a hospital, and, because of this situation, they are forced into the position, as the Minister knows, of having to come down and beg for some alleviation.

I wish also to make this further reference. The Minister has indicated that capital expenditure on hospitals this year will be less than it was by, I think, £1,000,000.

The amount made available from the Exchequer by way of Grant-in-Aid.

Yes, for capital purposes; that is, the building of hospitals and extensions and so forth. Is that not the correct interpretation?

The amount made available in Grants-in-Aid.

I am on the right lines. I want to tell the Minister that he has had representations and requests made to him for a number of years by, say, Hume Street Hospital, which is a skin and cancer hospital. The skin side of it is mainly an out-patients' department and they have a considerable outdoor patient clinic. These people have been begging for years for the few thousand pounds necessary to improve that department, which is out of date, unsuitable and unhealthy. Surely the Minister is prepared to meet that situation. The improvements I have suggested would not cost anything like the outlay on a new hospital. It certainly would be well under £50,000. There is a hospital which I inspected the other day. It has 150 beds and in every bed there was a patient not only from the city but from parts of the country as well, notwithstanding the new hospital which has been built recently to give this particular type of treatment.

I ask the Minister to do something to relieve this situation. I do not know whether he has inspected the place himself, but I suggest that he inspect it now and grant in the coming year the small amount of money necessary to make this hospital complete and perfect and to give some relief to the very bad situation that exists for the patients who attend this hospital. I shall not go into details. The place requires better ventilation. Other conditions in the department also require improvement of the kind necessary properly to treat these diseases. The Minister knows very well that I have been pressing him in this as in other cases. He has acceded to my requests previously in other cases and the hospital authorities concerned have been satisfied. I trust he will meet this case now.

I have dealt with types of payments and have asked the Minister seriously to consider the holding of consultations between the officers of his Department and of the local authority with regard to residential qualifications, with a view to recoupment from other local authorities in genuine cases. I have asked the Minister to consider a grant to alleviate ratepayers from the impositions of some of the health charges. Surely a grant of over and above 50 per cent. is necessary? If he likes, I shall send him a detailed analysis on the percentage basis he referred to, in order that he may see how foolish such an approach is in the circumstances of the manner in which we administer the Health Act.

In conclusion, I shall say, as I said before, that there is no controversy from this side of the House about the Health Act. As far as I and the local authority to which I belong are concerned, there is grave criticism about the manner in which the Minister is transferring to us charges which we feel should be borne in part, if not in full, by the Department. We also ask for a cessation of commitments for future increased or new charges, without at least consulting the local authorities concerned.

I suppose Deputy Briscoe has emerged from the maelstrom of the Dublin Corporation's effort to deal with the situation arising from health services throughout the country. He seems to be a bit too detached for me to follow in the case he has made here to-day. I shall speak in a less detached manner about the work of the Department. In relation to births and deaths, the situation seems to be very satisfactory. We are glad to see the slight increase in the marriage rate. Also very satisfactory is the extraordinary fact that T.B. figures have been reduced by 50 per cent. since 1951. It is to be hoped that we have seen this once grave threat of serious illness removed. The growth in cancer is disturbing and I do not know what the Department are doing about following the investigations taking place in other countries to trace the relationship of smoking with cancer.

I am afraid—and I am particularly afraid because I am a very heavy smoker myself—that there is fire where that smoke is and I think that, like health ministers in other parts of the world, our Minister and Department must educate the young people. Such a move will not be very popular with the Minister for Finance, but we cannot close our eyes to the contention that smoking is a very dangerous factor in this dreadful disease. Generally, the expectation of life is higher among non-smokers, but I do not know whether that would be regarded satisfactorily from the point of view of general taxation. The report is good, as I say, but the doctors' bill is too high.

The fact that the Minister can tell us that we must spend £15.58 million this year, £8,000,000 of which will be distributed from the Central Fund, is almost alarming and I think there is not a Deputy who is not dismayed by the incidence of health charges. If a Deputy is a member of a local authority, he is much more aware of how heavy they are and how costly they can become.

What I find disturbing in the local body of which I am a member, the Cork Corporation, is that we are not even sure that the moneys we have provided this year will be sufficient for the service that may be necessary because we are dealing with something which is completely in the realm of conjecture. It is very alarming to think that you cannot budget clearly and that you are facing an imponderable kind of future in which the expenses may be monstrous while, on the other hand, they may not be so bad at all. Medical officers of health say they have no means of estimating what this service will cost.

The grousing—"grousing" is the word; I indulge in it myself sometimes —about the very grave weight placed on the ratepayer by this service is unjustifiable, particularly if one was a member of this House during the lifetime of the last Dáil. We cannot evade it: we are now trying to administer part of the Act. I intend to propose to the Minister that certain aspects of our health development should be slowed up. Certain capital projects should be postponed in view of our present financial position. I have in mind, at the moment, a particular project about which I have already approached the Minister, that is, a regional hospital for Cork City at Wilton. Some years ago, the bill was estimated at £2,000,000; I do not suppose that that would be a sufficiently high figure to-day. We should wait and postpone that work because, just now, I do not think we can afford it.

Is it your view that we should wait for a better time?

I think it will be agreed that the expenditure of £2,000,000 on a hospital just now would not be justified especially if one thinks of the other uses to which that money could be devoted. I feel that part of the pressure to get that money spent is due to the mentality of civil servants who like to tie things up and get them finished with. If I am not mistaken, the question of that hospital has been going on for something like 20 years. I know that architects and engineers have obtained considerable fees.

I think Deputy Corry has codded you.

No matter what amount of money may have gone down the drain, in my view this project should be put in cold storage for the present. The people of Cork and the people of the country in general would have to contribute, through the Central Fund, towards that hospital. We cannot afford that kind of luxury at the moment.

We stand now at a cross-roads in our financial affairs. We have been warned that financial pressure will compel us to cut our cloth according to our measure. As recently as this week, at the estimates meeting of the Cork Corporation, the manager indicated that even the cost of running the sanatorium at Sarsfieldscourt would possibly fall entirely on the ratepayers.

The Minister would not do that.

When I look at some of the wonderful and attractive buildings in this country and think of the brilliant architects we have working under green shaded lamps on more plans for this luxurious hospitalisation system—something that would be the envy of the rest of the world—I cannot but feel, remembering the present financial stringency, that our housing, for instance, will be held up. I am aware that our present hospitalisation is ahead of that of many countries. I think our outlook should be that we had better wait before creating more of these great institutions which will eventually have to be maintained by the rates.

In passing, I may say I feel that the easy manner in which money was obtained from the Hospitals' Trust to create these institutions had its own seed of badness because posterity may not thank us when they face the maintenance of these institutions. No matter how desirable all these projects may be, a stage may be reached when we just cannot support the institutions which we already have, not to speak of the ones we are thinking of establishing.

I have not referred to the difficulties of administering the Health Act. Deputy Briscoe is an extremely competent advocate of local bodies in that regard. I am sure the Minister, from the Department's point of view, will be equally competent. However, I must say I am sorry for the Minister because he has inherited the most difficult Ministry. Furthermore, he inherited the Health Act—an Act which was marvellous on paper but which was completely unplanned. This Minister has worked harder than any other Minister and if I have any complaint about that it is that he has been too successful. We find that this Health Act will work much sooner than any of us thought it would and that it will cost much more than we thought it would cost. Acknowledgment by the Opposition of the Minister's success should, I think, be grateful and certainly it would be timely.

I do not want to show any personal animus towards the Minister for Health because, as Deputy Barry says, he is implementing this Health Act. In his speeches he has been very conservative in his attitude towards it. As he is the architect, with the rest of the inter-Party groups following behind him, anything I have to say is not any reflection against him personally. We are not, however, going to have the inauguration of this Health Act or the carrying out of these projects without one last inquest on what I can only describe as the despicable hypocrisy of the Fine Gael Party in their attitude towards it.

When one examines what constitutes Coalition psychology, one can argue about the morality of it. One can say it is possible to some degree for Parties of different political complexions to come together and make concessions, one to the other. It has been done, and no doubt it will be done in the future, on questions where there is a marginal difference of policy in regard to the expenditure of money or to particular features of a Bill. One can conceive an honest exchange of opinions and views between Fine Gael and Labour with a compromise being arrived at without saying that the Parties concerned grossly deceived the electorate in a general election when neither said specifically what they would do if they got back but when one had a vague idea of what they would do and of how far they were likely to combine. Here, the position is entirely different.

We are now inaugurating a health service which was execrated by Fine Gael during the passage of the Bill, in which every known form of provocative language was used against Fianna Fáil in order to prevent that Bill from being passed, in which the Bill was condemned not because of the detailed provisions within it but because of the very moral nature of it and the effect it was likely to have on the community, in which every sort of Christian conception was invoked by the Fine Gael Party with absolute deliberation in order to make the Bill unpopular in the eyes of the electorate both at the time the Bill was being discussed and during the general election. Now that the health services are being inaugurated, we will have some of our views on this matter recorded during the course of this debate.

The basis underlying the reason for establishing the new health services relates to many of our welfare services. If you examine the countries of the world where the health position is superior to our own, where the health record is better, you will find that in every one, with the exception of the United States, the kind of health service that is now going to operate has been in operation for a number of years varying from ten to 20.

The Fianna Fáil Party was disturbed by the fact that although this country has one of the largest consumptions of foodstuffs, although we replaced defective houses to an enormous degree throughout the land, although the standard of living, through rising cattle prices and other circumstances, industrialisation, etc., was improving, nevertheless health standards were not measuring up to what one would like them to be. The House well knows the expectancy of life in this country has been some five to seven years under that in about ten or 12 other countries. In respect of children under one year, the infant mortality rate has been 50 per cent. greater here than it has been in some ten or 12 other countries. Although these countries are wealthier than we are in respect of fundamental matters of food consumption and general health conditions, they do not have a sufficient superiority over us to warrant these differences in health standards.

As a result of that, the Fianna Fáil Government, since 1945, was determined to improve health services by asking the people voluntarily by Act of Parliament to save contributions and to make available those savings in the form of improved health services, so that the people would not fear to take health treatment because of being unable to foot the bill. It is a very simple solution and has been adopted all over the world, as I have said, by countries with higher standards of living. They have all found they had to take measures of this kind. Nothing further was intended by us. It was not intended to glorify the State or to glorify the power of the Civil Service. That was not the intention behind the measures we introduced. It was simply a matter of providing a service which seemed to be inevitable under modern conditions.

It will be recalled that the Minister for Health postponed the operation of the Health Bill on the ground that there were insufficient beds. I would like to ask the Minister to give an account, when he replies, as to the present bed position. It is very hard for anyone who has not got all the facts at his command to understand the present position. We hear of a certain number of hospitals in the Dublin area which are empty or of other hospitals filling very slowly.

We would like to hear from the Minister how he intends to direct the use of beds in hospitals constructed at very great expense and to dispel the many rumours that are circulating throughout the country that we have too many hospital beds, that we have more hospital beds than almost any country in Europe per 1,000 of our population, and that in fact the position, instead of being one which would cause the Minister to suspend the Health Bill for over a year, was far more favourable than he gave us to believe.

We would like to hear from the Minister whether the progress of antibiotic drugs for the cure of T.B. is proceeding so much more rapidly than was envisaged during the period of the war when the T.B. hospitals were being designed, so that there will be actual vacant accommodation in T.B. hospitals within the next five years which will have to be utilised for some other purpose. I would not like to condemn either of the two Ministers for Health, the present one, the previous one, Dr. Browne, or previous Ministers to them in regard to that matter. It has been very difficult to foresee the rate of progress in regard to T.B. antibiotic drugs but we have been told that in the course of the next five or ten years there may be a considerable amount of vacant accommodation because of the success of those drugs.

We would like to hear from the Minister what his views are in relation to the provision of other institutional services which may be required in the course of the next ten years.

I mention that in passing because the excuse was given that there was an insufficiency of beds. We do not believe that on this side of the House. We believe there was a conflict between Fine Gael and the Labour Party and we give the Labour Party the entire credit for the Minister's announcement to-day. We believe the Labour Party used the whip on the Fine Gael and that, for that reason, the Bill is now in operation. We believe that because we refuse to believe that it would be possible for any member of the Fine Gael Party to alter so quickly their views on the general moral character of the Health Act and all that underlay it in so short a time.

I myself agree with some Deputies who said in this House that one of the worst habits in this country was to condemn a person for changing his mind. The sooner we change our mind on many matters in this House the better it will be for this country. But when within a very short time, Deputies change their mind on the moral character of a Bill it is really too much to believe that they are sincere. We have not seen that change in the philosophy of the Fine Gael Party in regard to any other matter to believe they have sincerely changed their mind on this fundamental question. As I have said, we were execrated over this Health Bill. During the last general election there was a violent campaign against us largely linked with religious matters about the Bill. General MacEoin, the Minister for Defence, described the Bill as ungodly and made a speech even in his constituency and said that I, as a particular person who was very much concerned with the Bill, acted as a sort of evil influence in the matter.

Now that we hear that the health services are going into operation it is just as well that we should record again in the House the views of the arch enemy of the Health Bill, Deputy McGilligan. I suppose we may presume Deputy McGilligan was not speaking personally as we have been told he was during the election broadcast at the time of the general election.

Is this in order?

We presume that he was talking as a member of his Party, and with his customary gift for malevolence, he emphasised the views of the Fine Gael Party in regard to these matters in no uncertain manner.

The Deputy may not discuss the Act now. That has been passed by the House.

I am proceeding to discuss the announcement of the introduction of the health services in relation to the views expressed by the Fine Gael Party and I want to find out what element of sincerity there is behind their introduction and what are the real views of the Minister and his Party in relation to the health services.

The Bill has been passed by the House and the views expressed on the merits or demerits of its passing are scarcely relevant.

Surely we have a right to ask whether there is sincerity in this matter in view of the past declaration of opinions in regard to the Health Act? Surely we are entitled to ask that?

It would not seem to be related to the Estimate.

Surely if the Fianna Fáil Party were in office and announced in the course of the introduction of the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce the complete implementation of free trade, the Fine Gael Party, if in opposition, would be entitled to question their sincerity?

I do not wish to hinder the Deputy. I would like to see how he relates his remarks in that respect to the Estimate. I cannot allow a discussion on the merits or demerits of the Health Bill per se.

What I was saying was in relation to the Minister's announcement in regard to the implementation of one phase of the Health Act. I would like to ask him whether the members of his Party have changed their minds or whether they still subscribe to the view, for example, expressed by Deputy McGilligan.

On a point of order, while I am responsible to the House in relation to my administration of legislation I do not think I should be called to question here on this Estimate for the views expressed by Deputies at the time the legislation I am now administering was being passed through the House.

I waited to see what the Minister said. I think the Deputy intends to quote the Minister.

Surely Ministers have been questioned for many years in regard to their attitude towards Estimates for which they have responsibility, whether they believe sincerely in their nature, whether they intend to prosecute them efficiently, whether they intend to ensure that services under these Estimates are enabled to succeed with the best possible will.

I said that I would allow the Deputy to proceed until I saw whether what he was proposing to quote amounts to a criticism of the Health Act or not. Criticism of the Health Act is out of order in a debate on the Estimate.

I will give an illustration. I should like to ask the Minister, shall I say, whether he has been able to reconcile his announcement on the implementation of the Health Act with the view expressed by Deputy McGilligan in Volume 138, column 603 of the Official Debates, in which he said, speaking of the Health Act:

"Is there the freedom that a Catholic community should have? Is the responsibility left to parents— fathers and mothers—within a Catholic community which, according to Catholic teaching, ought to be left to them? Is that the position or has it been found that again there is a breakdown and that another Health Bill will have to be scrapped entirely or will have to be amended so completely——"

Before the Deputy proceeds any further, I must point out the Deputy is trying to relate a criticism of the Health Act to the administration of it now. I cannot allow the Deputy to proceed on those lines.

It seems to me to be an extraordinary thing that we are unable to discuss whether the money provided by the House is likely to be expended in an efficient and sympathetic manner, having regard to the previous views of the Fine Gael Party on the Act which enables that money to be spent.

I am not preventing the Deputy from discussing whether the money is administered efficiently or in accordance with the provisions of existing legislation. That is what he is entitled to discuss.

I have to bow to your ruling, but it seems to me to be an extraordinary position. I trust that, when other precedents arise, the same attitude will be taken.

The same attitude will be taken in respect of every Deputy.

Am I not allowed, for example, even to suggest that members of the Fine Gael Party expressed the view that no Deputy would dare to tell his constituents that they would have to pay 2/- extra rates for the new health services?

The Deputy has said it, anyhow.

Am I allowed to say that?

The Deputy has said it.

Am I allowed to quote Deputy McGilligan as saying that this was an enormous and unjustifiable provision, that the rate contribution was part of the whole "codology" behind the Health Act, that it would simply result in the imposition of rates for new services that took away the freedom of the individual, that took away the obligation of the individual to save for himself, that it was a fraud and delusion performed on the public?

Is that not a provision of the Health Act?

It was a comment on a provision of the Health Act.

It was a provision of the Health Act. If the Deputy proceeds to discuss that, he is discussing the Health Act, which has been passed into law.

He is against it now. He was for it.

Am I allowed to say that Deputy Mulcahy, in the course of the closing stages of the Health Bill, when it had been amended and dealt with after weeks and weeks of controversy, expressed views that were fundamentally opposed to the general principle upon which it had been drawn? Am I entitled to suggest that it is unlikely that the new Health Act will now be implemented with enthusiasm? The views of the Fine Gael Deputies——

Surely the Deputy is doing precisely what the Chair ruled on five minutes ago?

The Deputy is trying to get across to the House by this adroit method, what the Chair has ruled out. I cannot allow that. The Deputy will discuss the Estimate.

Can I say——

I cannot say what the Deputy can say. I can only say, when the Deputy is proceeding, whether he is proceeding according to the rules of order. I will allow the Deputy to proceed.

Am I allowed to refer to a statement by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture only a few weeks ago?

I cannot allow that method of asking me "Can I say this or can I say that" and then proceeding to say it, in order to ask the Chair whether the Deputy can say it or not. That is a method that cannot be allowed, clearly.

I will simply state that I should like to ask the Minister to comment on a statement by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture, reported in the Evening Press on the 16th February, 1956, that the Act was daft, crazy and unworkable. I should like also to refer to a statement made by the Minister for Local Government and reported in the Irish Press on 12th March, 1956, that the Health Act had been steamrolled through the Dáil by Fianna Fáil and that it was impossible to cancel legislation. I should like to ask the Minister whether, in introducing these Estimates for the health services, he accepts the constitutional view that the Health Act is now being implemented because it is impossible to cancel legislation, or are we really a free House in which we can cancel any legislation we desire?

The Deputy is endeavouring to discuss the Health Act.

You have given me a certain amount of latitude and I have, I think——

The Deputy has taken it.

——largely said what I wanted to say. I want to remind the public of this matter and to express the hope that whatever the evils of Coalition may be, we shall not have a position in which there is such a reversal of opinions as the reversal we have watched and seen take place during the last 12 months in regard to a fundamental matter, where it was a question of moral principle——

The Deputy may not proceed on that line.

In connection with health administration in general, I should like to ask the Minister whether he considers that the psychiatric services in this State are progressing sufficiently rapidly. As the Minister knows, there would appear to be an inadequate number at the moment of trained consultant psychiatrists. I speak advisedly, from the point of view of the community as a whole, with no relation to people of any particular view, but I am speaking of the accepted value of a psychiatrist by the whole community. Does the Minister consider that there is an adequate number of consultant psychiatrists, or of accommodation and special treatment? I heard the other day of a person who had a private home for treating certain classes of patients who had 240 patients waiting to receive voluntary treatment. I should like to ask the Minister how many of the mental hospitals, in his view, are fully equipped from the point of view of psychiatric treatment. I know that many of them are doing splendid work. How many of them, through lack of financial support, have not yet been able to develop these services fully?

As the Minister knows, one of the astounding facts of modern civilisation is that nearly half the hospital and institutional beds in a very large number of civilised countries, including our own, are related to mental health and there does appear to be, not only in this country, but in other countries, a certain amount of delayed action in dealing with the problem, in regard to the amount of accommodation required per patient, the amount of segregation required for various classes of patients, and so forth. I believe, in many ways, we are in a better position than some countries who have a higher income than we. We have made enormous progress since the 1945 Mental Health Act, but I understand the position is far from satisfactory, and I would ask the Minister how he relates progress in mental health services to progress in other health services that is likely to take place in the course of the next five or ten years.

In relation to that I would recall that at the conclusion of our term of Government in 1954 we found that the programme for teaching mentally defective children was very much in arrears and that, in accordance with the general trend, there apparently was a considerable lagging behind in the provision of modern treatment. The number of schools was insufficient and the number of nuns trained to teach mentally defective children was also insufficient, although growing, and although they were doing splendid work. I would like to ask the Minister how he views this matter. I understand a considerable number of young people mingle with other mental patients in mental hospitals and that a great deal needs to be done for them. I understand that the teaching of mental defectives is grouped roughly into three categories—those who will always require help in life; those who will be able to look after themselves when they have received whatever teaching they can accept, and those who can be brought to the point where they can play a useful part as citizens earning their own living. I should like to ask the Minister for a statement as to what progress he expects to take place in that respect.

I should like the Minister to give some account to the House as to how many local authorities have had the means and facilities to segregate patients in county homes. We have had some considerable success in County Westmeath where an effort is being made to promote a home for elderly men and to separate such men who are homeless but otherwise normal citizens from people who may be semi-mentally defective for whom there should be some sort of security. There was an announcement made by the previous Government, I think, that a sum of £500,000 was to be spent over a period of years on the county homes. Some county councils have gone further ahead than others. I would like the Minister to give some idea of the progress made in that matter.

I am sorry that I missed a certain portion of the Minister's statement and I should like to ask him whether he said anything about the promotion of new public nursing services in this State——

——because I was thinking, not only of public nurses of the ordinary type but those who have social science degrees and are capable of doing preventive medicine and, in particular, of teaching hygiene to children. I would like to ask the Minister what progress he has made in that matter. I have always felt that preventive medicine required greater consideration here and I would like to ask what has been accomplished in connection with this. I have been told that there is a number of new items of expensive equipment available for use in hospitals which are ultimately labour-saving devices and I trust that the Minister, when requests are made by hospitals for grants, will show a sympathetic attitude. There is one instrument which, in a single action, can tell the pulse and cardiograph the heart and blood pressure, and it is very simple to operate and should result in a very considerable saving of time in hospital treatment.

I hope the Minister will consider such new devices sympathetically, when requests are made for them, and will not be worried at the initial cost, as ultimately they will save time, and not only time, but anxiety to patients, in being able to perform a number of operations quickly and without undue delay.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he is satisfied in connection with hospital treatment as a whole that complete clinical records are kept in unusual cases so that if a patient becomes ill again subsequently and goes to a different hospital the record of the previous treatment will be secured. I have been told that the coordination of clinical records for patients having unusual diseases is not sufficient and that sometimes a patient has a recurring disease and the record which would make the subsequent treatment very much more easy could not be found. I am told the standard practice varies from hospital to hospital and some records can be very complete, and in other cases they are inadequate. I would like to ask the Minister what his view is in regard to that matter.

Lastly, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has had under consideration at any time any sort of centralisation of pathological examination in the Dublin area. I am told that in a great many large cities abroad of the size of Dublin specialists have found it necessary, labour-saving and helpful to humanity to have a 24 hour pathology clinic operating with messengers linking the hospitals to the clinic and that it is an inevitable modern feature of medicine that must come sooner or later. Sooner or later that issue will have to be faced as far as Dublin City is concerned. I am told it should make a considerable difference to the speed of treatment and diagnosis and in fact to the work done by the specialists and that therefore it is more than urgent. I have also been told that in a country of this size, particularly in Dublin, some kind of specialist diabetic clinic is justified and that a great deal can be done to reduce the difficulties experienced by diabetics. I am not sure if that is going too far ahead or whether it is an exaggerated statement but I am told it is now desirable.

Considering the statement made by the Minister for Health in introducing his Estimate and studying it in relation to the situation which existed with regard to health services in June, 1954, the position to-day surely constitutes a very considerable achievement, indeed, on the part of the Minister, even in the last year. The fact that, as the Minister puts it, the substantial services adumbrated in the Health Act have now come into operation, above all the fact that that has been done with the co-operation and the goodwill of all those concerned, seems to me to be a matter on which anybody, with any effort at objective consideration of this matter, must congratulate the Minister. But it is surely a matter for even greater congratulation when one considers that the health services are unfortunately, apparently, still one of those matters which give rise to the sort of extraordinary bitterness which preceded Deputy Childers' real contribution to this debate.

When one thinks of the peculiar atmosphere, which one might almost consider as outside the bounds of reason, still attaching to health and health services, it seems to me that the fact that the Minister has now succeeded in putting into operation substantial services under the Act— putting them into operation with the co-operation and goodwill of the medical and other professions involved—is a great achievement indeed, and one on which he should be congratulated.

On a point of order, might I make it clear that I spoke with no personal bitterness to the Minister? I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that, as the responsible Minister, he was sincere in his attempt to put the Act into operation.

When it became necessary to postpone the operation of these services, it was prophesied from the other side of the House that the Minister would never succeed in obtaining the co-operation of the medical profession in putting the scheme into operation. The fact that he has done so appears to me to be a very considerable achievement indeed.

The cost of these services, both in the way they descend upon the Exchequer and in the way they descend upon the local authorities, is a matter of very grave concern. One of the things that should follow most directly from the proportionate size of that cost is that we should be all the more careful to ensure that health services and health policy, such as the individual forms of treatment, individual institutions, clinics, staff and equipment, which have been made available, are guided in the right direction.

I feel that the definitely high cost of health services in this country at present is not something for friction between those who represent the local authority, on the one hand, and the Exchequer, on the other, or friction between people with different rates, but something much more, as an urgent mission to try to ensure that the whole structure and machinery which we are now setting up is aimed in the right direction and is getting where it is aimed.

It is possible to read from the Minister's statement some sort of general view of the health situation in the country. The first thing which is clear is that there are in existence equipment, staff, hospitals and policy for dealing with T.B., which have been successful so far. As the Minister has said, it would be a great pity if we said that it had been successful beyond credence, because such a statement might block the efficiency of the efforts that have been made to deal with the disease. We have now got mass-radiography, T.B. clinics, sanatoria and the other ordinary local health services to deal with T.B. It is an efficient machine, the work of which has only to be intensified to improve it.

We have broken down the extraordinary reluctance there was to reveal T.B., to discuss T.B. and to admit to T.B. and that seems to me to be a very clear example of two other things that are required. Listening to the figures given by the Minister, covering the general health situation, it is quite clear that, apart from the ordinary question of medical dealing with everyday complaints, we have still got three major problems in relation to health, in addition to T.B. One is cancer; another the rate of injury and death by accident, and the third, the question of mental diseases. It seems to me that these three, in addition to T.B., are the three major difficulties with which we are faced.

With regard to cancer, we have the same problem as the whole world and we must await medical developments, as the entire world must wait. As has happened with regard to T.B. it may happen that the general research which is taking place may suddenly find a medical answer to cancer, and we may thus be relieved of a large part of that problem by something not directly connected with our own efforts. Until such time, however, I think we should make a more definite effort to convey to the layman all that is to be known about the disease. I think that cancer is one of the diseases which is shrouded in a horrible fear. I think there are many people who suffer for a considerable time from some other curable physical complaint and who will not go to a doctor because they are afraid that they may have cancer. I think there are other people who do suffer from cancer and will not take the necessary steps to have it dealt with because they are afraid to face up to the awful possibility of having it diagnosed for the first time.

To a large extent, propaganda of a reasonable and intelligent nature has cleared away much of the prejudice about T.B. in the last five or six years. I think that more information about cancer and about the services available in the hospitals to deal with cancer would be of great assistance in clearing away this frame of mind. Such enlightened propaganda might do away with a lot of unnecessary fear and suffering endured by people suffering from cancer at the moment. A good example of that is St. Luke's Cancer Hospital in Dublin. The construction, layout and decoration of that hospital are amongst the most extraordinary achievements there have been towards the alleviation of suffering from that disease. Something of the same approach should be brought home to the people in the way of propaganda about cancer. It would greatly ease the situation.

The second great difficulty which faces us with regard to health is the number of deaths and injuries of an accidental nature. This question might be split up into a dozen different phases and it might be invidious to deal with all of them on this Estimate. We have already dealt with industrial injury and we have tried to make our factories more safe. We will, I understand, be dealing with the matter of injuries from transport accidents, but one of the matters which come properly into the charge of the Minister for Health is the case of accidents from drowning. It appeared to the ordinary person reading the papers that, perhaps on account of the long summer, we had last year an extremely large number of tragic drowning accidents. They may not have amounted to a great number in the course of a year, but they were pathetic and tragic cases of death and they affected people more tragically because of their very nature. It seems to me that the Red Cross, which is under the advice and guidance of the Minister, should institute a much better system of safety precautions on the ordinary more commonly used beaches.

As far as I am aware, there are great numbers of schoolboys and university students, good swimmers, who will be spending long periods of their holidays each year on beaches throughout the country. All of these could be got on a voluntary or semivoluntary basis and used as lifeguards or coastguards on those beaches. This is something which the Red Cross people could easily undertake. It could be extended considerably without any real expense and with a considerable increase in safety measures.

What about encouraging the construction of inland swimming pools?

That is another aspect of the matter. At the moment, I am dealing with measures which would lead to an increase in safety on the beaches. The third matter is a matter on which Deputy Childers touched. It is the question of mental treatment. It does seem to me that the figures show there is a breaking down in the reluctance to seek voluntary mental treatment and to accept what would be the stigma of a mental hospital patient. At the same time, I do think that much greater emphasis could be laid on some sort of child guidance.

I am personally concerned about much of what one hears outside in regard to the psychiatric development of children. A lot of nonsense is being spoken, not by professional or skilled people, outside the country about this subject by people who know very little about the psychiatric development of children and who have no practical experience.

Obviously, there is a great deal lacking in the instruction available for parents in regard to backward children and I should like the Minister to consider the setting up of child guidance clinics. People who find themselves with one or more children who are definitely backward mentally, or affected in some minor way, though not possibly subjects for hospitalisation, would need instruction from such clinics. A very considerable amount could genuinely be done by parents and teachers, as well as by proper psychiatric treatment.

I had experience recently of a child who suffered from relatively mild psychiatric disturbance as a result of a motoring accident. The only treatment he could get was in Dublin and he lived down the country. There was no question of his getting treatment nearer than Dublin. The treatment would require attendance at a clinic here twice or three times a week. It did not look possible to achieve that. The Minister might consider an extension of that branch of the health services.

There is one other matter on which I spoke during the debate on last year's Estimate. Steps have been taken in connection with this matter since then, and progress has been made. I am speaking about the whole question of rehabilitation. As the Minister mentioned, anybody with any knowledge of it will know that the Tuberculosis Rehabiliation Institute has done magnificent work on a voluntary basis. It seems to be a practical organisation, soundly contrived and energetically and efficiently worked, and there is no doubt that voluntary effort on behalf of other organisations must lend a very particular improvement to such work.

With regard to general rehabilitation of all types of people who suffer from disease, injury or disability, the Minister has, since he presented his last Estimate, set up the General Rehabilitation Institute. This has worked in collaboration with different organisations, but it does seem to me that one interest which should be tapped for the setting up of an effective rehabilitation system throughout the country is employers. One of the major problems attached to industrial accidents is the rehabilitation of employees. This matter was considered in England as far back as the days of the Beveridge Report. It was stated that one of the greatest evils flowing from industrial accidents, followed by workmen's compensation, was the fact that it became so difficult to rehabilitate the employee.

I believe that to be true. I think nothing could be worse for the victim of an accident than to go through a court three or four times listening to one side say he is never going back to work and the other saying that he is already capable of working. A special rehabilitation system is necessary to deal with such types and I think employers could contribute considerably to that.

The only other matter to which I would like to refer arising out of the Minister's statement and the Estimate is the question of voluntary health insurance. I for one am convinced that, if a feasible plan can be found, it is something which will fill a very definite need in this country. I do feel that if it is ever to be effected, it must be availed of by a very large proportion of the population.

If it is to be availed of by a very large proportion of the population, I believe it must be put in some concrete form before them as soon as possible. If voluntary health insurance is to be a reality, in so far as this country is concerned, the people must get some idea of it within a short period from now. It is quite clear that if you settle down now to the altered system of the provision of health facilities, it is unlikely that you will have a voluntary health insurance system looked upon as an attractive idea in the near future. If it did come into operation at a fairly reasonable rate, I think it would become popular. It must, however, come in some concrete form as soon as possible.

Those are the only individual comments I wish to make on the Estimate and on the Minister's policy. I do not think the Estimate is controversial and I do not believe it is necessary for me to say again that the putting into operation of all these health services within this time, having regard to the atmosphere which existed, and the difficulties which existed, is a very considerable achievement and a personal achievement on the part of the Minister.

I welcome the Minister's statement and I welcome his implementation of the Health Act which we passed. I welcome the conversion of the Fine Gael Party to our point of view. It is in the national interest that we should safeguard the health of our people; and from that point of view his statement in relation to the fall in the death rate from T.B., from 1951 to the present day, is very gratifying. The provision of proper treatment together with the introduction of the allowances in relation to T.B. sufferers is paying a sound dividend. The expenditure in that direction was an equally sound national investment and that investment will, indeed, pay dividends to posterity.

There is just one point I want to raise and that is in connection with patients leaving sanatoria before they are cured. I do not want to interfere with the rights or liberty of the individual, but I think it is a tragedy both for the patient and for those with whom the patient will subsequently reside that he, or she, should leave before complete cure has taken place. I have had some experience of this recently in the county. I was grieved to come up against it because such people injure not only themselves but those with whom they reside or come in contact. I think these people should be encouraged to remain in sanatoria until their complete cure has been effected.

I would make one appeal to the Minister. I would ask him to go just one step further in the implementation of the 1953 Act. It must be admitted that when that Act was introduced there was much adverse criticism and a good deal of misrepresentation. I shall not follow that here now however. To show his sincerity in the implementation of the Act I would appeal to him to increase the contribution to local authorities by 10 or 15 per cent. If he does that he will go one step forward towards removing the Act from the realm of controversy because then we can assure local authorities that we are contributing more than our share in our efforts to improve the health of our people. If the Government shows its goodwill by increasing the contribution, that will be a good day's work. I hope the Minister has noted that point.

I come now to the scourge of cancer. Too many of our people are dying from cancer. Too many of our people are failing to seek the necessary treatment in time. I do not quite know what can be done but I think the institutions which cater for this particular type of patient are worthy of more support. As I have said, it is a sound national investment to save the lives of our people. I have been associated for a long number of years with the Cancer Hospital in Hume Street. I know that other hospitals take in cancer patients, but Hume Street was the pioneer in that respect. To-day, there is not enough accommodation for all the applicants, not alone from the City of Dublin but from all over the country. There are no grants to Hume Street from the Hospitals' Trust Fund or the Department of Health. I appeal to the Minister to do something to help this hospital. I know that in St. Luke's excellent work is being done and the medical men and nursing staffs there are to be congratulated. But I do not think the pioneers in cancer treatment should be overlooked.

To come back again to T.B., for a moment, I would like to say something on the rehabilitation side of it. This is one of the hardest problems with which we have to deal because so many patients have been cured— and it is stated both by the hospitals and the doctors that they are cured, and they are given certificates to that effect. Nevertheless, when they get a job in an office or in some works there are certain people there who will say: "These people had T.B. and they are working here with us at close quarters. Could you not find them some other place? We do not want to work with them." I did come across a few cases of that kind. I am very sorry to say we are not dealing with charitable people all the time. When some people enjoy good health they have very little consideration for other persons who lose their health.

Any help that the Minister, his Department or people of goodwill can give the rehabilitation committee should be given. People of goodwill who have employment to give in factories or workshops should give that employment to the persons to whom I refer, those who have been cured of T.B. If the Minister had all possible powers conferred on him, no matter what he might do, he would still require, in this national problem, the assistance of people outside in rehabilitating the persons to whom I refer.

We have another problem in this country. I do not know what the statistics are to-day but some years ago we had over 300,000 of our people suffering from some kind of rheumatism or another. Some of them are in a fairly bad way. Some of them, possibly, apply for allowances of some kind to help them along; some of them depend on their friends; some of them are condemned to county homes and such places. They are a section on whose behalf I would appeal to the Minister for Health to do something for them. In the administration of the special grant for people who are not able to look after themselves—I am dealing now with another section of the Health Act—the means test of the local authorities has made it almost impossible for such people to get anything at all worth while. I hold when a man or woman is invalided in this manner something should be done for them.

The statistics we received here from the Department of Health some years ago indicated that about 300,000 people were suffering from some form of rheumatism, arthritis or such complaints. That is an immense number of people in a small country like ours. I ask the Department of Health again to go into it and see what we can do to assist these people in getting up-to-date treatment. We have a few rheumatism clinics here and there but we do not seem to be able to get any specialised treatment at different centres all over the country where people who have lost, or are losing, the use of their hands and legs can be treated.

Another problem with which the previous Minister for Health dealt was the provision of homes for old people. I know we have a number of homes around Dublin for old people, some of them run by religious orders and some by the local authorities. Could we advance a bit in the human sphere and provide better homes for old people who are completely destitute? At least we would be contributing something a Christian nation should contribute towards its citizens when they become very old. I would like to see the homes made more like their own homes at home, if that were possible. Even our county homes, where there are many old people, could be improved. However, I would like to compliment the administrators of St. Kevin's Hospital on the wonderful advances made there during the last ten or 12 years and the up-to-date treatment that patients from the City and County of Dublin receive there. I should like to mention how bright and how well-run the hospital is; even for the old people, the place has changed completely, but a lot still remains to be done.

Another problem with which we meet every day, in the streets, in hospitals and in the homes, is that of the backward child. The number of backward children seeking treatment to-day at our hospitals and mental institutions is very large and the waiting list seems to be getting larger, notwithstanding the fact that the present Minister for Health and his predecessor have contributed a good deal towards trying to improve the position. However, a lot remains to be done in that field. We have a number of children who, if they were treated properly earlier on, might not have to spend their lives in some institution or other until they grew to be old men and women. I know that the solution of this problem is going to take time and that, like everything else, it involves expense. If some of these children could get proper treatment, it is possible that they would react to it and, instead of having to spend their lives in these institutions, might become very useful citizens. I am not talking about the most extreme cases—no matter what you do you may not be able to improve them—but I am talking about the mental defectives who are not too bad. In that field, we have a long way to go and we have many advances to make. While the Minister for Health rightly stated that certain provisions had been made in ordinary hospitals for children of that kind and also in the hospitals under the administration of religious orders, we need to make further advances before that problem is brought under control. Successive Ministers, the Department of Health and medical officers all over the country have succeeded in eliminating numerous fevers which prevailed up to a few years ago. We must compliment them on that success, and, together with that, I would appeal to parents to accept the advice given to have their children immunised against such contagious diseases as diphtheria, typhoid and so forth.

In dealing with the question of mental treatment generally, I should like to see much greater segregation in mental hospitals. This all amounts to a question of accommodation. It is particularly essential that people on the road to recovery from mental illnesses should be treated in an environment which will ultimately lead to their complete recovery. There is a great deal more to be done which could be done by medical staffs in mental hospitals, if there was not such overcrowding. Overcrowding in mental hospitals tends to retard recovery of patients, no matter what the system of treatment may be.

Notwithstanding that, I should like to express satisfaction at the great number of people in the City of Dublin and throughout the country who benefit from the modern system of treatment introduced, first of all in Grangegorman, by Professor Dunne. I should like to see more encouragement given to such men, even to the extent of setting up laboratories in order that the good work commenced in this field might be carried on. In the old days, is was a case of depositing men or women in a mental hospital and leaving them there until they died. There is a human approach there to-day when great efforts are being made to see that mental patients get every chance to recover and return to their homes and to society. The success in this field is due to men of the kind I have spoken of who have succeeded in their experiments, if I might use the word. Such men have acquired knowledge through which they have been successful in curing people who would otherwise be condemned to live in mental hospitals for the remainder of their lives.

I appeal to the Minister to leave nothing undone in the way of encouragement to men of Professor Dunne's kind. Everything should be done to put at the disposal of these men equipment which will improve the rate of cures among the mental patients. This is a national problem, and I appeal to the Minister on that basis.

Over a long number of years, there has been dissatisfaction throughout County Dublin, and, I feel sure, throughout the country, with the lack of accommodation available for the medical examination of school children, particularly in national schools. If a doctor, nurse or dentist comes to examine school children, there is no proper room in which the examination can be carried out. I feel sure that, if the Department of Health asked the school managers to co-operate, this problem would be solved and a proper room, no matter how small, put at the disposal of visiting health inspectors. This would not cost a lot of money; yet, its benefits would be great. I feel sure that the necessary co-operation to achieve it would be forthcoming as between the school managers, the Department of Health and the Department of Education. It seems ridiculous that children should be examined in a cold classroom, when it would cost so little to provide a special room for the purpose.

Deputy Finlay raised a point about which I also am concerned, that is, with regard to the water safety measures. We are all aware of and deplore the number of drowning accidents which happened last year. I know that the Minister for Local Government is taking an active lead in this matter, but I should like to see more co-operation between that Department, the Department of Health and the Red Cross Society. Deputy Finlay seemed to think that the Red Cross Society could do more to help in this matter. The society has succeeded in doing a lot; in fact, they have been pioneers in the matter of lifesaving, since they took up the work a few years ago, but I am afraid they will have to get more co-operation from local authorities and from the Department of Local Government, if they are to extend these activities.

I wonder if the Minister has had a number of requests from recipients of T.B. allowances for increases in these benefits. It is a long time now since these allowances were first made available. Times have changed since and these people now find it is very hard for them to carry on.

I have pointed out what the T.B. allowance has succeeded in doing and what up-to-date hospital treatment has succeeded in doing. I want to make a formal request now to the Minister. I am not saying it can be done on this Estimate, but I would ask the Minister to consider it during the course of the coming year. I appeal to him to improve the lot of people suffering from T.B. If he can do so, I believe it will further reduce the death rate from that disease. I am appealing to the Minister to increase the allowance, in view of the increase that has taken place in the cost of living since 1947. If the Minister succeeds in increasing the allowance, it will have the very beneficial result I have already mentioned.

I welcome the Minister's announcement of a further decrease in the T.B. death rate. On the other hand, we now face the major problem of an increase in deaths due to cancer. To-day, cancer is a greater problem than T.B. and the position is causing no little uneasiness among the people. This is a matter which should be handled just as T.B. was handled. It is essential to have early diagnosis and early treatment. In my view, people should be educated to a greater degree on this point, just as was done in the case of T.B. The Minister will get the full co-operation of the public, because of the great fear in which cancer is held—a greater fear, indeed, than there ever was of T.B.

The Minister made no reference to the death rate from thrombosis, coronary or cerebral. I hold that the thrombosis death rate is increasing and hospitals should be better equipped to deal with its treatment.

To come back again for a moment to the subject of T.B., I believe there should be an all-out drive for B.C.G. vaccination of school children, and especially of children from a family which has shown a tendency towards T.B.

I want to draw the Minister's attention to a matter which concerns Merlyn Park Hospital in Galway. Patients from neighbouring counties cannot receive visitors there, due to the fact that the time the bus arrives at the hospital is the very time when patients must have their rest period. If their relatives or friends have not a car, or cannot afford to hire one, they have no opportunity of being allowed to see them. I should be glad if the Minister would take up that matter with the proper authorities. He will appreciate how hard it is on people who are there for a considerable length of time and who cannot have a visitor.

Recently, the Minister opened in Galway one of the most up-to-date and best equipped hospitals in Western Europe. I am informed that plans were drafted without even appproaching the medical staff as to the needs and the demands of such a hospital. Undoubtedly, it is a very imposing building, but it has accommodation for only 284 beds, 74 of which are in single bedrooms. A mere 74 single bedrooms in a public hospital is ridiculous. In the old hospital, we had accommodation for 316, as well as 160 beds in the prefabricated huts—the section known as "St. Joseph's"—476 beds in all. This is a regional hospital. I understand it is to cater for the demands of other counties as well as County Galway. If the new hospital has a reduced number of beds, I fail to see how it will meet the situation.

In private hospitals, we have accommodation for 164 patients in Galway, and we have only 210 public beds. I should like the Minister to examine this position, because, within the next year or two, the prefabricated huts will probably fall asunder and the situation will then be more than I would care to be responsible for. The cost per bed in this hospital works out in the region of £4,000, which is rather costly.

Opposition Deputies have been blowing up the Health Act, and what they have done and what they are going to do. Their Health Act would not go very far without the Irish Hospitals' Trust, which was initiated by members on this side of the House.

I hope the Minister will take note of the few points I have made and rectify the position. We used at one time have more deaths from T.B. than we have emigration now.

Most of the matters which I intend to refer to have already been dealt with by other speakers and I do not propose to detain the House with any repetition or, at least, there will be as little repetition as possible. In common with other Deputies on this side of the House, I welcome the Minister's statement in so far as it shows a relaxation of the opposition to the Health Act, so strongly persisted in by the people who now form the Coalition Government. I hope that some, at least, of the controversy which hinged on these debates in the past and on the Health Act generally will resolve itself into some definite and agreed action by members on all sides of this House to implement the Act for what it is worth.

Most people are slow to venture into the field of medicine, but a duty devolves on public representatives to take full responsibility for what should be the greatest national duty of any State, the health of the people. In my view, we shall not have adequate health services in this country until the poor are as certain of medical attention as are the wealthy. We have a long way to go before we reach that position. Many fine things can be said about the present system. Statements have been made illustrating the services available to the poorer sections, but until all sections of the community can, on equal terms and without any humiliation to themselves, feel assured that the best possible medical assistance available in the State is at their disposal, just as it is at the disposal of the wealthiest people, we have not fully accomplished the duty—as it is the duty of any Legislature—to provide for the health of the people.

It is heartening indeed to note that, year by year, progress can be reported in the field of medicine in this country. We can mourn the loss of many people who might be alive to-day, if, at the time of their death, they had available to them services which, even now, are available, but, at the same time, I often think that the progress in many fields only serves to indicate the long distance we have to go yet, before we reach the point at which really satisfactory progress can be reported. There is no service to which money can be voted by this House which could be anywhere near so deserving as that of the health of the community. The old primitive system was that, when a neighbour was afflicted unexpectedly by illness, bringing about its consequent privation, the hat was sent around in the district and the charitable friends in the community came to his aid. We have moved a long way from that in many respects but, in some respects, not so far yet.

Sickness is something which can beset any person or family. In many instances, the assistance available to them is subject to a means test, taking into account their circumstances at the time, but it does not take into account the fact that in many cases families have been impoverished as a result of illness. If the community is asked to subscribe to a health scheme which will benefit any unfortunate person who is overtaken by the affliction of ill-health, we are only doing something which is long overdue. I think every member of this House, irrespective of his political views, will, in his heart, greet any scheme of that kind. I do not think any member of this House will have any difficulty in visualising cases of distress, due to illness, in his own immediate area and where, with all the facilities which might have been available had better financial circumstances prevailed, those people who have died would perhaps be healthy members of this community and still carrying on as good citizens to-day. Anything that will prevent that, even in a solitary instance, should not be grudged by anybody who is even in a small way in a position to bring about an amelioration of our health services.

Some of the progress we have made only tends to indicate the distance we have yet to go. I wish to make a few points already covered by almost all the speakers so far and I do not propose to labour them. I take first the treatment of mental patients and the provision made for their treatment in mental hospitals. These institutions were started off with a certain stigma attached to them, like many other institutions in this country. That stigma, to a great extent, has not yet been removed. While the institutions have been improved, there is yet much to be done, if they are to be used to the best possible advantage for the increasing number of cases which now present themselves as a result of the more advanced treatment available and the better clinical service.

In studying the position in the counties—I have been a member of a mental hospital committee for some time—I often think there should be some better, more systematic means of segregation of the various types of patient. The voluntary patient, the chronic mental patient, the juvenile or young patient—all are mixed together in the one institution—and while many people now voluntarily present themselves for treatment as nervous cases, they are obliged to mix with chronic mental patients. I would say the environment in itself is not conducive to a cure.

We are not casting aspersions on any of the patients when we say there should be different apartments, if not different institutions, in which these people may be treated. I find from experience that patients who are anxious to go for treatment to other institutions, or homes perhaps outside their own county, are precluded from doing so, for the simple reason that the local authority will not be responsible for their maintenance in those institutions, since they have not submitted themselves for treatment in the institutions in their own county. There should be absolute freedom of choice, in my opinion. If a local doctor asks a patient to go for treatment to an institution in Dublin, the local authority should not refuse to be responsible for the maintenance of that patient merely because the patient did not go for treatment to the local institution.

There are many cases discovered in the local clinics of people being advised to go for, say, insulin treatment, shock therapy or some other type of treatment in the local mental hospital and they are reluctant to go there, due to the fact that they have to mingle with the different grades of mental patients, or perhaps due to the stigma which, rightly or wrongly, still attaches to these institutions. I know mental hospitals have done much to remove that stigma by modernising and, as far as the means at their disposal will allow, bringing these institutions up to a better standard; but again there is the question of money and it is not always possible for a local authority to impose on the local rate the burden necessary, if they are to make these institutions what the people would really like them to be.

In that respect, I should like to refer to the present system of recoupment under some previous Health Act, whereby health authorities are recouped in respect of their expenditure on health services. As far as I remember, 1947 was taken as the basic year, and local authorities are recouped to the extent of 50 per cent. of what they expend over 100 per cent. more than was expended in that year. Some counties have done quite well on that scheme, while others come out of it rather badly. In counties where a good deal of activity or hospital building was in progress during the basic year, where the expenditure was high, the local authorities have come out of that scheme very well indeed. Other counties, such as Donegal, where the expenditure in that year was not abnormal, find themselves now in the position that they are unable to benefit to the same extent as counties who had a higher budget for health services in the basic year.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider, in the light of his experience over the past few years, whether or not the burden is equitable, whether or not that system has placed an undue burden on certain local authorities. If he examines the figures, he will find that, if counties like Donegal are to undertake the expenditure which they would desire under that heading, they would require much more generous support from the Exchequer.

The other matter which I want to stress and which has been covered by Deputy Burke and others relates to the allowance for permanently disabled persons. There was no more beneficial clause in the Health Act than the clause which provided allowances for permanently disabled persons. Permanently disabled persons were the one section of the community that, prior to that provision being made, were completely left out in the cold, in so far as social services in this country were concerned. While the provision was an innovation in this country it also has only served to demonstrate the inadequacy of the measure. The Minister will have the support of every individual in this House if, in future, in the light of experience gained, he will improve that scheme.

Candidly, I do not believe that there should be any means test applied in the case of permanently disabled persons. People who sit in wheel chairs and who require the constant attention of relatives should be made to feel that they have some little independence, that they are not entirely dependent for everything they need. Irrespective of the means of the family, disabled persons should be granted some weekly allowance which they could call their own and which would give them a certain amount of happiness which otherwise they could never enjoy. The number of such people in the country is not very great. There are disabled persons whose degree of disability may not amount to total incapacity; there are others whose disability may improve with time. There are permanently disabled persons who can never hope to walk, who are constantly a burden on their relatives and dependent on the members of the household for everything in life. Every Deputy will agree that, irrespective of the means of those whose duty it is to support them, such persons should be given some weekly allowance in order to give them self-confidence and a little gleam of happiness and hope which may extend their time. I would strongly urge the Minister in the light of experience of that scheme, in so far as it has been in operation, to go a little further in that direction.

I also want to refer to the system of allowances in regard to domestic help in connection with the children of T.B. patients. The allowance is not payable where immediate relatives are taking care of the children. That is wrong. It very often leads to much hardship. Irrespective of the relationship of the persons taking charge of such children, the domestic allowance should be granted. Where children are sent to their grandmother, to an aunt or to any immediate relative, the allowance is not payable. I do not want to stress the matter further, but would appeal to the Minister to reconsider that aspect of the scheme, with a view to eliminating hardship.

Rehabilitation of T.B. patients is another matter which has been dealt with by most Deputies. One little point was missed. I think the State does not show a good example in the matter of the re-employment of ex-T.B. patients. I have known sound young men, who passed the examination for the Garda and who, because they had a T.B. history, although they could show a clean sheet from X-ray and medical certificate, were not allowed to enlist. That is not fair and is not setting good example to private concerns who are expected to re-employ persons who have suffered from T.B.

The Department of Agriculture is not blameless in that respect. I have known cases where men had to abandon their employment for a period of two years in order to undergo treatment in a sanatorium, and, when they were certified as fit for work again, the Department refused to re-employ them.

Those decisions would not be a matter for the Minister for Health.

I submit that it is a matter in which reform could be initiated by the Minister. While I agree that it may not be wholly relevant to the Estimate, this is the only opportunity we are given of raising the matter here. I shall not press it any further.

The question of surgical treatment in sanatoria is another matter to which I wish to refer. In some sanatoria far from the hub of things, which, unfortunately, is this city, there should be occasional surgical attention provided, in order to obviate the removal of patients to other hospitals, and to avoid the upset and trouble which is caused by the removal of patients when they reach the stage that they require surgical attention. It would be much easier to have a surgeon available occasionally in the sanatoria in the outlying counties on the western seaboard than to have patients transferred by ambulance for surgery. The change of environment, the upset, the cost, are not justified. If one surgeon were brought down, say, two days in the month, it would obviate the removal of several patients at intervals by ambulance. If that matter were attended to, a good deal of complaint and grievance of patients and relatives, as well as of local authorities who feel the effect of the rising cost of such frequent transfers, would be eliminated.

Many of the other points which I have noted here have already been covered. I could continue to remind the Minister of various points but I do not want to introduce too much repetition into the debate. I want to conclude on the note on which I started and say that, on this side of the House, we welcome the Minister's statement particularly in so far as it shows a relaxation which at one time we did not believe was possible, of the attitude of the Coalition towards the Health Act. Neither did the people of the country believe it would be possible. But it augurs well for the future of the health services, particularly in relation to those unfortunate people who may be afflicted in the future. Indeed, I believe it is for the good of all concerned.

I propose to be very brief in my remarks on this Estimate. I would like to join with Deputy Brennan in saying that I think the time has come when the controversy which raged over the health services for a number of years past should cease. I am glad that the Minister has decided to implement the remaining sections of the 1953 Health Act. In saying that, I want to make it quite clear that I supported the Health Act here in 1953, not because I considered it was the solution to our problems, but because I felt it was a step in the right direction; and, judging by the criticism levelled at that particular time at the proposed Bill, I felt it was better to have that Bill passed than to have no legislation at all.

My own personal view in connection with health matters generally is that the less inquisitions we have into the means of applicants, or those who need the services, the better. The smaller the horde of officials employed for inquisitorial purposes the better for the State and the health of the individuals as well. I am afraid, however, we are a long way from the Utopia I envisage, when we will have a State in which a means test for health services will be a thing of the past. Every individual in this House, and outside it, and every political Party is entitled to have views as to whether there should or should not be a means test. That was never in dispute. But no political Party is entitled to put a moral cloak or a theological cloak around its shoulders in order to condemn those who believe in a no-means-test health legislation. What disgusted me and others like me was the fact that people who disliked the health legislation felt that they could not carry the day on normal objections; and, in order to reap support, especially from the unthinking, they succeeded in giving a twist to the whole situation, creating a belief in the minds of the public that it was contrary to the moral law that every man in this country was entitled to the same treatment.

I do not care whether that suggestion is made in this House or outside it. I do not care who made it. I do not believe for one moment that there is anything immoral in giving the same treatment and the same opportunities to all citizens. If that red herring, as I will describe it, had not been drawn across this trail in the early stages, the controversy which ensued over the Health Act would not have occurred and, in this House, we could have fought out the question as to whether or not a means test should be included in legislation. We could have discussed this matter on a normal day-to-day basis, but not alone did the political Parties use this subterfuge of the moral issue in their arguments against a no-means-test legislation but the Medical Association, those gentlemen in Merrion Square who sprouted wings, placed the moral cloak upon their shoulders and decided that it was contrary to the moral law to give treatment to all citizens on the same basis. The real opposition to the health legislation in this country came not from the ordinary members of the medical profession but from that closed group at the top of the I.M.A. which has been responsible, for years, all down the line for the lack of progress in helping the people to health.

The Minister for Health has no responsibility for these matters.

But I propose to bring home to the Minister part of his own statement in which he paid a compliment to, and thanked, the Medical Association for the fact that they were willing to co-operate. I listened to Deputy Finlay and other Deputies eulogising the Minister for the fact that he had now got the co-operation of the I.M.A. But it is not so much a question that the Minister has got the co-operation of the I.M.A. as the fact that the I.M.A. has got the Minister by the hasp. When I refer to the I.M.A. I refer to that little clique on the top, because from my own personal experience—and I nearly paid dearly for my interest in this health legislation—I know that the ordinary doctor down the country, the dispensary doctor, was all in favour of progress in so far as health matters were concerned and was prepared, and is prepared, to implement whatever this House considers measures just and wise to pass.

If I remember correctly, I have seen it stated in the Press recently that it was not a fact that the Minister had got the goodwill of the I.M.A. I remember reading in their own journal a statement that they had reluctantly agreed to work this measure. Perhaps we should try to appreciate that they did overcome—I will try to be as charitable as possible—the major portion of their reluctance to this Act. Was that not due to the fact that they had succeeded in extracting their pound of flesh from the present Minister?

On a point of order. When Deputy Childers earlier on proceeded along the lines on which Deputy McQuillan is now proceeding, I understood the Ceann Comhairle ruled—and I submit it is the fact—that I have no responsibility for these matters. On this Estimate I am responsible for the administration of the Act and we should not be asked to have again all the controversy and discussion which arose on the Health Bill when it was passed in this House.

It is not in order to discuss legislation on the Estimates.

Is it in order for me to suggest that one of the reasons for the criticism of the cost of the implementation of this Health Act is due to the pound of flesh extracted by the medical profession for the services that they are now rendering so reluctantly to the Minister?

The Deputy is entitled to discuss the administration of the Act but the Act itself may not be discussed.

I can appreciate that the Minister is anxious to act as a cover or a shelter for these people in the House here. I hope I have made it quite clear that the angelic wings of the I.M.A. have been clipped and we have the real truth at last—that is was a question all the time of what they could extract from the Minister for Health for their participation in this particular scheme. Gone now are all the objections on moral grounds. When they have extracted their pound of flesh they are prepared reluctantly to implement the legislation.

I wish to submit to you, Sir, that Deputy McQuillan is flagrantly disobeying the ruling you have given from the Chair.

I have already pointed out to Deputy McQuillan that he cannot discuss legislation on the Estimate.

I have said all I want to say on that subject and with your permission I will now go on to another matter.

Is it in order to discuss the question of the doctor's fees?

Certainly.

That question has not been ruled out of order.

That is all Deputy McQuillan was talking about.

I have covered the particular issue and I am sorry if the Minister felt that I was discussing something outside his particular Estimate. I was trying to give the House an idea as to the reasons why the Medical Association decided to implement the Act.

I take it the Deputy is trying to be helpful.

It is not a question of being helpful to the Minister. I was trying to show the public exactly how the present cost of the Health Act has come about. There is, as the Minister is well aware, a certain amount of criticism in connection with the cost of the full implementation of this Act over the years. One of the big items of cost, apart from the local authority end of it, is the cost of fees and expenses of those whose duty it is to administer this legislation. It is only for the purpose of pointing out that at one stage there was no hope at all of having this legislation administered or carried out on the grounds that it was contrary to moral law that I have raised this point. The amount that these people have now succeeded in extracting from the Minister has salved their consciences.

I see here, in sub-head K, under the allocation for the Hospital Trust Fund, that last year a sum of £2,250,000 was laid out. This year the sum is £1,250,000. That is a reduction of £1,000,000 under that sub-head. I was not here when the Minister made his opening statement, and I wish to apologise for that, but I would like if he would reply to a certain point I am going to make. Every Deputy is interested in matters in his own constituency and I have heard other Deputies raise the question of improvements to hospitals in various parts of the country. The Minister is aware that for a number of years past efforts have been made to construct a new hospital in Boyle. This is a question which has been considered a matter of urgency. I remember that in 1948-1949 a deputation from the local authority and the people of the Boyle area met the then Minister for Health, Dr. Noel Browne, on the subject. He pointed out to them that he had no funds at his disposal, and that the funds available under the Hospitals Trust were earmarked for a priority list and that he was not going to change that list.

The members of the deputation, being reasonable men, did not push him any further. He felt, however, that there was a necessity for this hospital and that when the schemes for which the funds were allocated had been completed the Boyle hospital would come high on the priority list. During the period that Deputy Dr. Ryan was Minister for Health the work was still going on the projects for which the funds had been earmarked. Dr. Ryan did make it quite clear that he was very sympathetic towards the problem in Boyle and that he felt it was very desirable, at the earliest opportunity, to have the necessary funds made available for a new hospital there.

On the basis that these funds had been earmarked, nobody was prepared to be awkward with any Minister for Health or with the Department of Health. Now, to my amazement, I find in this Estimate that there is a reduction of £1,000,000 in the amount for the Hospitals' Trust Fund. I think that reduction of £1,000,000 is unjustifiable in view of the fact that you have an area like Boyle which is so much in need of a hospital. It is all very fine to have reduced expenditure in cases where the spending is on non-urgent or on non-productive matters, but nobody can suggest that the erection of a hospital is not a necessity. Great strides have been made in recent years in the reconstruction of hospitals and it would be a sad day now if that drive should be stopped before the greater proportion of the needs of the country are met.

One of the reasons given by the present Minister for his hesitancy in implementing the Health Act was that the machinery was not there to operate it, and I distinctly remember him stating in this House and outside it that, if he allowed the Health Act to come into operation in full on the date on which it was passed, the hospitals were not available in the country to have the services administered and that there would be such a rush for beds that the poor would be tumbled out on the floor and that the rich would get into the beds through lack of hospital accommodation. If that argument were sound when the Minister was criticising the Health Act, surely it is only logical for me to suggest he should take the necessary steps to have the necessary hospital accommodation made available throughout the country at the earliest possible opportunity.

That is being done. That is why the Act has been implemented.

I suggest to the Minister, with respect, that, as far as the county in which I am interested is concerned, it has not.

Might I refer the Deputy to what he said in the House two years ago? He said that in Roscommon every accommodation was available.

I pointed out that as far as the maternity end of it was concerned, we were prepared to implement the provisions of the Health Act.

He went out of his way to point out that every accommodation was available for the full implementation of the Health Act.

If the Minister quotes me, would he please quote me properly? I have not got a copy of the relevant report, but I can say definitely that my statement had specific reference to the section of the Health Act dealing with maternity treatment and the Minister went out of his way in and outside the House to have my statement contradicted. There was no reconstruction of any kind carried out in Roscommon. The Minister must come down to earth somewhere. He may not be too familiar with the Boyle area, but I feel sure his officials are only too well aware of the strong pressure brought to bear time and again for the provision of a hospital there. It is very unfair for the Minister to suggest at this stage that the needs of Roscommon County have been met and that there is no further need for hospital buildings there.

The Deputy must have misconstrued what I have said. I reminded the Deputy of what he said.

The Minister will not get away with it like that. I am bringing to his notice the problems being faced in the Boyle district, although I know that what I say probably goes in one ear and out the other. I am expressing the views, not alone of the Minister's supporters in the Boyle area, but of all the people in that locality, in so far as hospital accommodation is concerned, and I feel sure that, if the other Deputies from the constituency were available, they would add their voices in no uncertain fashion to impress on the Minister the necessity for getting ahead with the building of a new hospital in Boyle.

The problem became so acute there that we had to carry out certain reconstruction works in order to meet the demand of the people in the district, and, in spite of any reconstruction work carried out, the building is still unsatisfactory. Money spent on it is a waste. Instead of patching and reconstructing a building like that, it would be cheaper and a better proposition to build a new structure. All we are doing at the moment is endeavouring to keep an old shack together.

The reason I am so urgent about this and so vehement is that I see a reduction of £1,000,000 in the Estimate under Sub-head K. I do not think there should be any reduction of an Estimate dealing with hospital construction.

There is no reduction.

What about the £1,000,000?

I will not make a second speech for the benefit of the Deputy. If he were here when I was speaking, he would have heard me.

I am asking him a very simple question as courteously as I can. Will he explain to me, an ordinary Deputy, how is it there is a reduction of £1,000,000 on his Estimate as far as the Hospitals' Trust Fund Grant-in-Aid is concerned and how there is no money available for the reconstruction of a new hospital in Boyle? Would the Minister please answer these questions when he is replying?

I should like to pay a tribute to the Minister for the manner in which he has succeeded in implementing the health services for which he has become responsible. He became responsible particularly for the implementation of the 1953 Health Act and he has certainly succeeded as far as is possible in implementing it both in the letter and spirit. Health is said to be wealth, and if we approach it from that viewpoint, we should find out what contribution people make towards the protection of their health. We see from the figures given by the Minister that approximately £16,000,000 per year in public money is being spent on the health of the nation. That is approximately £5 per head. There is growing anxiety regarding the mounting costs of the various health services which are becoming available, and while I pay tribute to the Minister for the manner in which he is managing the affairs of his Department, I should like to ask him to take another look at the health services in general, in order to see whether they could be more economically run and made more efficient as well.

At the present moment, the ratepayers are contributing nearly £8,000,000 towards the health services to supplement the State's contribution of a similar amount. On the average, this is approximately 8/- in the £1 being subscribed by the ratepayers. A very large percentage of the ratepayers get no benefit whatsoever from the health services to which they are contributing so heavily. We have seen from various statements of accounts given at annual meetings that the cost per head per week has reached a fantastic figure. I would ask the Minister to put the microscope on the present method of administration in an effort to find out whether any changes can be made which would have the effect of making the services more economical. I believe the cost per bed per week is at the moment more than £10 per patient. Now that is a very high incidence of cost, and for that reason I would ask the Minister and the health authorities involved to turn the microscope on the various costs that go into this average cost, in some cases exceeding £10 per bed, per patient, per week.

I heard Deputy McQuillan refer to the "no means test" controversy. I will put a straight question to him: if there is no means test, who pays? Somebody pays, and there is therefore no point in making an issue of the words "no means test". Somebody pays and it is a question of who pays. We have in our hospitals at the moment, and I can certainly speak for the hospitals in Dublin City and County, the most modern services that can be made available in the medical and nursing field. We know, in fact, that some of our services are internationally recognised and held in international repute. We have the services in the Rotunda Hospital, the services now available in the new genito-urological unit in the Meath Hospital and we also have an authority on mental diseases treatment in Grangegorman. These three services are known throughout the world and, as a result of that, we have students coming here from abroad, desirous of learning from our medical profession the science of treatment in respect of those three services.

I was interested to hear the Minister's statement that we have now too many beds for the treatment of T.B. The reason for that decline in the incidence of T.B. is that medical science in the treatment of T.B. has advanced considerably; treatment is comparatively effective, with the result that we now have empty beds in our sanatoria. Of course, these sanatoria can now be put to other uses, but it is, to say the least of it, reassuring to know that in this country, as in many others, T.B. has been conquered.

I have noticed that, in recent years, very large and grandiose hospitals are being constructed. The question that occurs to me is: could less grandiose buildings provide the necessary services and services as good as those which are available at present? I have in mind certain hospitals where the nurses have to use bicycles to get from one ward to another. Is that an economic design for a hospital? Would it not be possible to design hospitals where the nurses would not need bicycles to go from one ward to another?

I come now to the question of the voluntary health insurance. I mentioned at the outset that, although health is wealth, many of our people do not contribute properly towards the protection and maintenance of their health. Indeed, with that end in view, the Minister has set up an advisory body to find out if it will be possible to devise some scheme whereby those who desire to protect their health can contribute to a fund which, when set up, can provide for its members the necessary medical and specialist treatment.

Personally, I think a voluntary health insurance scheme is the ideal at which to aim, but I feel at the same time that it will not be effectively accomplished while a large section of the community are able to avail of the existing public services, by reason either of their income limit or their rateable valuation. Therefore, it is the remaining section of the community which would be interested in a voluntary health insurance scheme and the contributions from that limited section might be so heavy on each individual that, in fact, the money available towards the cost of such health services might not justify the amount of contribution they would be required to subscribe.

For that reason I would like the Minister to consider, when he gets the report of the advisory body, the possibility of setting up some kind of compulsory health insurance scheme. I think it would be only fair to expect every person in the State to contribute his share towards the maintenance of his own health. Possibly that could be done in the form of a stamp for each person. I believe a stamp for each person is the method by which contributions are obtained for the purpose of operating and providing much larger and more diversified health services in Great Britain.

I am not advocating that we should go too far in providing services which might be regarded as unnecessary and unessential, but we should at least consider the possibility of asking every individual to make a weekly contribution towards the cost of maintaining his own health. We would appear to be reaching that frame of mind and, since we are, I think we should consider the possibility of getting the nation as a whole to contribute, instead of merely asking certain sections of the community to subscribe, in addition to asking all sections to contribute in the form of general taxation.

I was interested in the Minister's figures to-day in relation to the magnificent contribution which has been made to the provision of health services by the Hospitals' Trust Fund. Examining those figures, and looking back over 25 years during which the Hospitals' Trust Fund has come to the rescue of people in need of hospitalisation, we can appreciate the magnificent service which the fund has given to the people, and certainly the large amount of money which the Hospitals' Trust Fund has made available to our hospitals justifies the continuing support which the Hospitals' Trust Fund is getting from the public, not alone in this country but outside it. I notice that, in fact, the Hospitals' Trust last year provided £2 for every £1 which they were giving in 1950. That is an example of the expansion of the Hospitals' Trust Fund and the progress of the Hospitals' Sweepstake which, on its record, deserves the fullest support of the nation.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on adopting the Fianna Fáil Health Act. I do not care whether he was coaxed by Labour or anybody else, but I am very glad that he is going to put it working, almost to the full, anyway. I am most surprised to find Deputy Rooney converted. I suppose the next person who will be converted will be the Minister for Defence who said so much against it in 1953.

I do think the Minister paid a very high price to save the morals of the I.M.A. When the representatives of the Department of Health came down to Cork a couple of years ago, this 10/- pool was pointed out at a meeting in the South Infirmary—10/- per bed for the doctors. We were fairly satisfied with it, but, at the recent meeting, we were told that it had been increased to 19/7 per bed for the doctors, as well as fees for extern doctors who had never been paid anything before.

Personally, I am glad that the doctors in the voluntary hospitals are to be paid, because we had too much humbug about free services given by the honorary physicians and surgeons in the voluntary hospitals. Some of them were doing great work and some of them were acting very decently towards their patients, but in regard to other people, who boasted that they never charged any patient in the public ward in a voluntary hospital, we are all aware that they were charging them, and I think it is better to have it on the basis it is going to be on now, that each doctor will get the same remuneration, and that there will be no private fees to any patient, except patients in private or semi-private rooms. I think that is better than the humbug that existed before and, even if the Minister did put extra expense on the local authorities and on the taxpayers, I feel that he had to do it in order to get those people into the scheme.

I heard Deputy Rooney talking about the cost of £10 per bed. I would say that, in any general hospital in any country, there is nothing lower than £10 per bed per week for surgical and medical services, and all the other extras that are available. I know that, in the sanatoria in Cork, the average cost is about £6. I think anyone listening to the statistics given by the Minister to-day must admit that we are getting great benefit out of the money we are paying for health services.

Deputy Rooney wants to know who will pay. I think everyone will pay who can afford it. The lone person living in an attic room in the Cities of Dublin or Cork will have to pay something extra in rent, perhaps threepence or fourpence, for all the other services. It is only right that people who cannot afford them should have available the same specialist services as are available to people who can afford them. It is the duty of the strong and healthy people to help those who are not strong and healthy.

The Minister is aware that recently we had a discussion at the Cork Sanatoria committee about the handing over of Heatherside. He mentioned it in his opening statement, and I am sure he is aware that there were three very tight votes on that occasion. It was very satisfactory to know that the members of that committee completely disregarded politics and the members of the different political Parties voted to do what they thought was best. We had a report from the county medical officer of health that day. We got the county medical officer of health and the city medical officer of health to give their opinions as to whether or not they thought it wise to hand over Heatherside, and they both agreed that we could hand it over with safety, in order to relieve the overcrowding at the mental hospital.

The county medical officer, however, made a suggestion and I want to bring that suggestion to the attention of the Minister. He suggested that we could bring in the patients who were in the small temporary sanatoria, such as Skibbereen, Millstreet and Macroom, and that, with some temporary chalets made of timber, similar to the 60-bed one being constructed at the moment, something could be added overhead so that we would have all our T.B. patients under the one administration. I ask the Minister very seriously to consider that suggestion. I believe myself that it should be done. The grounds are very extensive and it seems ridiculous to have doctors and officials going around to all the different places, some of them 50 miles or more away from the headquarters.

I know the Minister is very anxious about the Cork Mental Hospital and the overcrowding there. The R.M.S., who was also present at the meeting of the sanatoria board, pointed out that some short time ago we had a big waiting list for entrance into the sanatoria, but there could not be a waiting list for a mental hospital. When a person goes mental, you cannot put him on a waiting list. You have to take him in, with the result that you have about 300 people there, not having the accommodation that they should have. I would urge the Minister to press forward the sanction of the plans for the admission block and other accommodation there that has been on the mat for a long number of years.

The Minister had the good fortune to open that sanatorium at Sarsfield Court and also the Orthopædic Hospital at Gurranebraher. I am sure he will not mind if I say that he and all of us should be very grateful to Dr. Browne and to Dr. Ryan for those splendid institutions, as they had been pressing them forward for a long time. Dr. Browne, in particular, should be mentioned in connection with the orthopædic services in which he was so interested. Many a child has been saved from becoming a cripple because of the excellent specialist services available there.

I think also that the Minister should do something to help the education of the young people in the Orthopædic Hospital and also the education of young people who may be confined to a sanatorium for years. I am firmly convinced—I think Deputy Burke spoke about it—that there should be an increase in the infectious diseases allowances. I am sure that the Minister must be aware of the great benefit that these cash benefits are. They are given to families whose breadwinner is stricken with T.B. and who has to go into hospital, maybe for years, and who, when he comes out again, is not able to carry on. He is not declared to be negative and he is still drawing what, in my opinion, is a very inadequate allowance. It seems very strange to me that nurses, attendants, doctors and everybody else have got increases, due to the increased cost of living, and the Minister can see his way to leave those people, whose breadwinner is suffering from that disease, on the same scale they were on many years ago before the cost of living went up so high. I would appeal to the Minister, no matter how hard he is pushed for money, seriously to consider that aspect.

I cannot agree with my friend, Deputy Barry, about postponing the building of the regional hospital. I am afraid that he is not as intimate as are a lot of us with the trouble of getting hospital beds. I know the Minister is aware of it. It is very hard to get patients into any of the general hospitals in Cork. In the case of St. Finbar's and the voluntary hospitals, one has to beg the doctors in those places to admit patients, sometimes very critical cases. We have the case of the children's ward at St. Finbar's which has to be double-cotted, and I am sure the Minister must agree that that situation should not be allowed to continue if at all possible, because it increases the danger of infection in those places. I believe that, by going ahead with the regional hospital, we will greatly relieve that situation.

It was agreed some years ago—a good many years ago now—that there would be a cancer centre alongside that regional hospital when it was built, and that it was necessary to have it alongside some general hospital like the proposed regional hospital. Several Deputies have said to-day that the whole country is getting worried over the cancer position at the moment. As a temporary measure, the Cancer Research Council have agreed to put up a temporary structure in St. Finbar's and the board of assistance have agreed with them on that. These are matters of great importance. There should be no neglect at all in pushing forward by every means in our power the setting up of places where cancer will be diagnosed and treated quickly. I feel that it is necessary for us to have that regional hospital, with the cancer centre close to it, as speedily as we can. I do not mind if colleagues of mine say there is no necessity for it; I believe that there is a great necessity.

I also believe—and the Minister is aware of it—that there is a great necessity for convalescent homes and places to house old people. He referred in his speech to senile patients in the mental hospitals. I believe that position exists all over the country. You have people between 65 and 80 in the mental hospitals who, in my opinion, should not be put there at all; there should be some homes provided where those people could be put and well looked after. I think that is very urgently needed.

I also say—and the Minister is aware of this too—that there is a great need for hospitals to house mentally defective and other deficient children. I would urge the Minister to attend to these matters as quickly as he can— to push on the provision of the admission block and the other accommodation in Cork Mental Hospital.

Somebody made reference to the provision of pathological departments. The Minister is aware that we will have very soon a pathological department in St. Finbar's which will be a great improvement and a great advancement for the city as a whole. I do not want to criticise the Minister unduly except to say that I am glad he has decided to implement the 1953 Health Act and to wish him success in carrying it out. I hope that he will continue with the good start he has made to implement it and that we shall all consider this matter, not from the points of view of ourselves and our Parties, but only for the benefit of the patients in these institutions.

I have every sympathy with the Minister in trying to solve this crossword puzzle of the Health Act. In bringing forward this Estimate he is bringing forward something I do not like—a demand for an enormous amount of unnecessary expenditure on the people. Like everybody else, he has got to go through with the Health Act. I am completely against this mentality; this country of ours should not have to go in for that. This country is loaded down with unnecessary institutions and sanatoria of all kinds. I am quite satisfied that we do not need half of them. If that money was spent in making happy homes for our people, we would be all far better off. If it were spent in giving full employment and better wages to our people we would not have any need for those big institutions. I am quite satisfied that as a nation we have failed in doing our duty. We have made a wrong approach in regard to the health of our people. I am quite satisfied we could have faced this long ago and done so with far less expense. There is no question about it.

The path of life for our people will become desperately dangerous if we keep going as we are. It appears as if each and every one of us feels that we shall die of T.B., cancer, or heart disease before our normal time. I am satisfied that that is the cause of this rush for health services. There is really a craze at the present moment for spending money in the wrong way. Half of the homes in this country are not a bit happy. Plenty of money is going into them but it is not being put to the uses to which it should be put. There is too much amusement, too much drinking and too much gambling. All this money is going into the wrong channels.

Has the Minister any control over the matters to which the Deputy is referring?

I think he has.

On the Estimates, only matters over which Ministers have control may be discussed.

I am satisfied that what I have said is the real truth. Most of us were born at home. I was one of a family of ten children and we were all born at home. We had never an hour's sickness and neither had our father or our mother. They lived the decent and normal way of life. They had good plain food, plenty of hard work and plenty of sleep. I believe that is the high road to health and if, as a nation, we do not get back to that high road then, unquestionably, we shall become a nation of sick imbeciles, and nothing else. This House should be realistic. It is grand to stand on a platform and talk of all our health centres, of what we are spending on hospitals, and so forth. That sounds grand. But is the cost not too much? Is there not a crushing debt on all of us?

Let them die.

Our county councils and different health sections are saying to-day that the whole thing is a political racket, that one Party is afraid of the other and that that is why we have this enormous amount of crushing debt. It would be all right if we were making headway, but we are not. As fast as we are building these big institutions, we are packing them out. We would hardly require half of these institutions if we approached the matter in the right way.

Is it not a fact that an enormous number of the loveliest young girls in Dublin are going into sanatoria with T.B. as a result of having to work for a small wage and not feeding themselves properly? Many of them spend too much on their faces and legs instead of spending the money on nourishing food for themselves. Before they are 25 years of age, off they go to the sanatorium. That is regrettable. That is a problem I should like this House to tackle. Our people can be trained. The trouble is that, at the moment, they are on the wrong track. Health Act after Health Act and Estimate after Estimate will not bring us very far. What I have said about the girls applies also to the men. Our young men of to-day are as different from the young men of 30 or 40 years ago as chalk is from cheese. All they want now is a good time, a fair amount of drink, to go to as many race meetings as they can and to smoke as much as they can. The human body cannot cope with all that unless it is built up with good food and plenty of rest. It is here that we are going wrong.

I would ask Deputies on every side of this House to face their responsibilities. I appeal to the authorities not to fill up this country with sanatoria and big hospitals. Let us face the realities. If we could get our people back to a normal way of living, if we could get them to have common sense and if more money were spent on physical culture, on outdoor amusement and in fostering a manly way of life it would be better than what we are doing at present. If we approach the problem realistically and in the manner I have suggested we can blot out half of the big institutions which we have to-day. There is no need for them at all.

Where is this lack of a proper mentality, which has been in evidence for some years past, leading us and what is its result? Is it not drying up Christian charity? Everyone wants something for nothing. I would rather see happy homes than anything else. Let the people fend for themselves. I agree that, at times, hospital treatment can be very expensive on a family. Nobody should be charged for the full maintenance cost in a hospital, but the nation could cut the cost by at least 50 per cent. We often do that in my county for people who cannot afford the full cost and they are quite satisfied to pay something. We should cut down expenses because, if we do not, where will the piling up of expense lead us?

Where is the "free-for-all" leading us? Just consider the load we are putting on our own shoulders. We are taking money out of one pocket, giving it to the Exchequer, giving it to officials at the rate of £20 or £30 a week and then trying to replace it in our other pocket. Leave this money in the people's pockets and let them fend for themselves. Let us get back to the idealistic way of life envisaged by Pearse and our other patriots long ago and let us have manly Irishmen.

We are told now that we are almost down and out and crushed by taxation. Why is that so? It is because we are too cowardly to face the realities of life. We have led our people badly. I would ask the Minister not to go very far with these services but to chuck them out. I wish some of them were never there at all. Our old people of 80 and 90 years reared families of ten and 15 children on a small wage. Now we have nothing but the pigeon's clutch and they are not able to rear them. The hard way of life, is the best and the most honest way.

I see Deputy McGrath, the Lord Mayor of Cork, laughing. Does he not agree that what I say is true? He is one of the old wariors who soldiered like myself. We did not soldier to make this a slave State. We are humiliating the living and the dead by what we are doing. We are taking money from the taxpayers for services that are not needed. We build big sanatoria and big hospitals. The Minister goes down and is offered a golden key to open one or a golden scissors to cut the tape. None of these would be required if the matter were faced realistically. None of these would be required if any money you have to spare were spent on giving labour, on giving houses to our people, on keeping them at home and on getting our people to see the right way of life. There is not much point in talking about cancer or T.B. Our people are not doing half the work which their predecessors did. I would ask the Minister to stop this foolishness or, if not, the people will kick us out, and rightly so, because we are not spending the money properly but making a nation of flabby people, ignorant of their duties, ignorant of the proper way of life and ignorant of the things they should do for themselves.

We should put these people in happy homes and give them good wages. The wages in Dublin for female labour are a disgrace and explain why our sanatoria are packed. It is sad to think of grand young girls of 18 to 25 years going into a sanatorium, coming out after some time, getting married and then not being able to stand up to the work of the home or family life. They are not able for it and that is why there are so many unhappy homes to-day. I want to see all that changed. If the health services we hear so much about got less attention and we concentrated more on wages, good housing, plenty of sleep and a decent way of life I am satisfied we would get back to the old road, the straight road, and that many things would right themselves.

I hope you will get back to it then.

I hope that, in his private business, Deputy Giles is more optimistic than he is in his pronouncements on this Estimate. He certainly speaks with all the courage, buoyancy and spirit of youth. One of the things that has made the health services so costly is, we are told by those who are expert in the study of them, that we are trying to get remedies for the various diseases of senescence. We are not satisfied with living to 70, 80 or 90 years; we want to live until we are 80, 90 and 100 years.

You will hardly hit 70.

I have seen young women rearing families who, contrary to Deputy Giles's experience, certainly would not have been in the land of the living, if they had been treated in the fashion of, I will not say 20 but certainly 30 years ago. They were able to settle down and bring up families. In the same way, we see hardy warriors from the rural areas coming into the county and metropolitan hospitals at the age of 80 and 85 and going through very serious operations which would not have been dreamt of some years ago. It is going to cost money, but I think it is worth it, if it were only for the rest; these life-long toilers on the soil or in the shop or in the workshop are entitled to their few weeks' rest and even if the rest of us have to pay for it, we should not grumble about it.

The expectation of life has certainly increased enormously. If the Deputy looks at the figures, he will see that, 100 years ago, it was quite common in large families of nine or ten that only half the family reached maturity. About half of them died in their early youth, but we have now the position that the expectation of life has increased enormously, even over the past 20 years, and that people are taking more advantage, presumably for their own good, of the facilities that are there. The Minister has not given us any figures, which would be rather interesting, of the total numbers looking for hospital accommodation now as compared with five or ten years ago. I am sure they would be very revealing.

Figures ought also to be given showing the improvement presumably since the school medical officers took notes of the height and weight of the children, so that we would know what improvement has taken place—I am sure it has been very substantial—in the physique and health of the children since the school medical health service was established. There were certain councils in this country that did not want to appoint a county medical officer of health at that time. They had to be compelled to do it.

We must consider the great increase in the cost of food, the increase in the cost of medicines and drugs and presumably the increases which these specialists expect and we have to pay for; as a famous artist said long ago when he was asked what he meant by asking for a cheque for several hundred pounds for a few hours' work, it was not a few hours' work, it was a lifetime of experience he was being paid for. That is how we must regard the payments that we make to specialists. We may be dissatisfied with them, but if we were the patient and if the specialist had brought us through, I am sure we would not grudge, if we were in a position to do so, paying out a cheque for three figures without any great hesitation. We must also remember that the cost of road building, for example, and house building has gone up enormously, and why should we not recognise that the cost of the health services should go up even more, considering the techniques and the specialising which are in progress? As everyone knows, the highly technical processes that have been introduced and these very costly drugs have added greatly to the cost.

Whichever way the health services are paid for, they have to be paid for and even in the United States of America, to the extent that they have an insurance scheme there to which the insured workers contribute, they have had the feeling that it would be fairer to them—and I am sure if we had compulsory insurance for health services, we would have the same complaint from the wage earning and salary earning population here—if the burden were spread more evenly and if the general taxpayer were to foot the bill. That is one of the problems for which a solution must be found: are you going to pay through compulsory insurance or through taxation? We decided when determining the financial basis of the Act which is now in operation that, since a large section of the population was rural and were self employed, you could not—and it is admitted now generally—successfully have compulsory insurance for these classes, and that, although it was not a perfect system, it seemed more reasonable that, since the people as a whole were paying through the taxes in different ways, the taxes and the national Exchequer should bear the brunt of the cost, instead of having it met through a system of insurance.

It has been pointed out during the course of the debate that a great many people are already providing their own health services—some of these large organisations and large firms. In the same way as the public authorities have always been responsible for the lower income group, have assisted them and have given them the necessary health services, it has developed in the course of time that those well-paid workers, or comparatively well-paid workers, or well-off people who are readily organisable in their own factories or organisations are able to provide themselves with services. We have had examples of it in this country, and that meant that the Government, the national health services, had to face the burden of the lower income group, in any event. The question was: were you going to give them the new services that were introduced into modern medicine; were you going to give them the advantage of these new techniques, even though they were costly, and the benefit, as far as possible, of hospital and specialist treatment?

It is extremely difficult to answer the argument in a democratic State, where the object of government is to see that all the people share equally in the national well-being, why one particular section, because of their circumstances, should be deprived of medical treatment which is available for others. It seems to be implicit and intrinsic in the doctrine of democracy that ultimately, whenever the time may come, all citizens must expect to get the same health treatment. As has been pointed out in the debate, to the extent that we fail to get that treatment for them and that all are not in a position to share equally in the advantages of modern research and treatment, it can be claimed that our democracy is very defective in its operation. Of course, it is expensive, but the rates are paid once a year. Most of the insurance contributions are paid weekly. If the rate bill had to be met several times a year, it would be very serious. Even though it is regarded as a rather odious payment because of its directness, it has only to be met once. If it were in the form of an insurance contribution, presumably it would have to be met weekly, or, at any rate, monthly, if it were going to bring in the necessary finance.

Moreover, I think we have to admit that even those who do not get hospital or specialist treatment are benefiting from the public health services. They are surely benefiting from the fact that the health of the community in general has shown such great improvement. They are surely benefiting from the fact that their children receive medical attention from the time they go to school and are surely benefiting from the better water supplies and other services that are provided through the local authorities.

We seem to forget these things. We do not make allowance for the enormous improvements that have been made. These services have to be paid for—paid for on the basis of the present value of money. I have always believed that the best, the greatest and the soundest test of expenditure is whether those who are responsible for the administration get value at all points on the line for the money expended. We have to rely on our local authorities, corporations and hospital committees to see that value is given for the money expended.

The Minister has not made any statement regarding the administration of hospitals. Some years ago the principle of having special administrative officers to look after the administrative and cost side of hospitals was instituted. I do not know if much has been gained or whether the Minister is satisfied or not that the procedure of appointing an administrative officer in the larger hospitals is worth while. Where it has been satisfactory and where economies, greater efficiency and saving of time, labour and money have resulted, the country and the Dáil should be informed.

If health officers were attached to hospitals, if they acted as a liaison in the way that hospital visitors do and if they were used more generally in the relationship between the hospital staff and the patients, particularly out-patients, probably there would be a great saving in the long run, not alone in money but in the energies, labour and accommodation of the hospitals. If there were bigger staffs of health visitors going about amongst the people who seek hospital or specialist treatment, I am sure things could be fitted in much better than seems to be the case at present.

The Minister referred to the necessity of expectant mothers taking advantage of the facilities available through the maternity services. Unfortunately, very often there is a lack of knowledge of these facilities, particularly amongst those people who come from the country to Dublin. More should be done by the Department to propagandise the work they are doing. More literature should be issued describing the services that are available and, more particularly, the steps which people should take to maintain their health and to prevent themselves from becoming a danger to other people as well as to themselves.

For example, in connection with gastro-enteritis, we have read in the newspapers recently that there is an international health organisation which sets aside a certain day of the year for discussion of some particular aspect of health work. This year attention was directed to the menace of insects which carry disease. We saw very little propaganda in that respect in Dublin or the country generally. Propaganda of that kind, even though it costs a certain amount of money, if it is maintained, should be of value in encouraging people, who have not the best or the cleanest habits, to improve.

I agree with those speakers who think that more emphasis should be placed on cleanliness. If it were only from the point of view of the tourist traffic, more should be done to keep the streets clean, not to speak of the shops and houses or the people travelling in public vehicles, using the shops and visiting institutions.

It would not be fair to expect the schools to do all that is required in the matter of instructing the young in habits of strict personal hygiene, which is so important. If the young people are trained properly, either by their parents, who have the primary responsibility, or in the schools, which come second, they will carry those habits with them through life. Unfortunately, there is rather more untidiness and dirt in our capital city than people who visit it have a right to expect. It comes rather as a surprise to many of them to see so much uncleanliness about. We have such a beautiful country, which has earned the commendation of so many travellers, that it is rather a pity that our towns, streets, and houses could not be kept cleaner. It is asking the Minister to do a great deal but, through steady propaganda, through the schools, the radio, and the Press, and by getting at parents and keeping at them, undoubtedly, the standards can be greatly improved.

I think that is true of immunisation. The Minister himself has referred to the fact that the let-up there seemed to be due to the fact that people thought no further action was necessary, that so much had been done they could sit back, but that is not the way with health matters any more than with religious matters. We cannot afford to sit back, as the missioners remind us. We must always be striving, and if we do not strive personally and in the sense of the community to secure better standards of health now we are likely to come a "cropper".

I should like to join with those who ask what is the position in regard to voluntary nursing organisations. The Minister says he expects to have a nurse either under the local authority or under the voluntary nursing organisation in each dispensary area. A great many of the nurses at present are depending on funds raised locally. People are not in a position, sometimes, in the poorer areas to get suitable transport for nurses in remote mountainous districts. I would like to ask the Minister what is in contemplation in regard to them. Are voluntary nursing organisations to be continued, or are they going to be assimilated gradually into the local public health services? It seems rather a pity when nurses are available and are working in these areas that there should not be an effort made to provide them with means to visit the out-of-the-way places for which they are responsible.

I agree with those who have spoken about the importance of the treatment of either mentally defective or nervous cases. It is very gratifying to know that such progress has been made in providing institutional treatment for boys and girls. I think that in response to the appeals from both sides of the House the Minister might, in reply, tell us what exactly is the position regarding mental hospitals, first of all as regards the staffing, whether he is satisfied it is sufficient, and secondly, with regard to accommodation, whether he is satisfied that in his experience accommodation is suitable. When one visits one of these institutions one sees large numbers of patients gathered together and one wonders whether the surroundings could not be made brighter and happier.

Reference has been made to what has been done in a certain Dublin hospital in the way of brightening up conditions for the patients. I am sure that more could be done in the way of providing brighter and, let us say, happier recreation and work-rooms in mental hospitals. My experience is very limited—thank God—in connection with visits to these places and perhaps I am asking too much, but I think there is a general feeling that since so many of the patients are old —I hope that is an indication that the trend is in the opposite direction-perhaps the Minister might let us know what is the position, having regard to the fact that so many of the patients have nobody to take them out of the institutions. It is rather a pity that their declining years could not be spent in as comfortable an environment as possible.

We all agree that the general practitioners who are doing such excellent work throughout the country are doing it as well or better now than ever before and that we could not pay them sufficiently for the attention they give their patients. Personally, apart from the merits of the administration of the Department, I think that perhaps sufficient allowance is not being made for the work of the general practitioners. It is not sufficiently appreciated and people are apt to forget very quickly the debt which is due, in more senses than one, to general practitioners down the country. But there is, naturally, a widespread and fairly serious distrust of officialdom, particularly when officialdom is taking to itself new fields and new places every day, and naturally representatives of the people on the local authorities are very distrustful when bureaucratic or official influence or interference is so much in evidence. Perhaps it is inevitable, and is in accordance with the spirit of the age, with which so many of us will disagree, but it is there, and my appeal to the Minister would be to see that the administrative side of the health services is reduced to the absolute minimum and that any money that is spent should be expended in paying the medical specialists and medical staff who are responsible for the actual care of the sick and for restoring them to good health.

I think it is on the services—not perhaps so much on the buildings or on the administration but on the actual people who are doing the fundamental work of treating the sick person—and on getting the very highest standard of skill, that we should concentrate our attention. The feeling in the country is that too much money is going into unnecessary administrative costs.

The Minister has a fairly new Department—it is in existence only for some years—and side by side with the building-up that must go on, if the public generally are to get the fullest advantage from the extended health services, there should, I suggest, be a pruning and cutting down of all the administrative costs. In areas like Donegal, Mayo and so on where a very large percentage, perhaps 90 per cent. or more, of the population will be entitled to services under Section 15, the question will arise whether these counties are in a position to meet the extra burden of cost from their own resources. My experience in connection with vocational education, which costs a very small amount, a few pence in the £ one way or the other, is that it was found necessary to come to the rescue and assistance of some of the poorer western counties. Sometimes we had to call on some of the better-off counties—though I am not saying the Minister should do that—to try to help out the poorer ones, but I think, and I always believed, that while the State grants on a 50-50 basis may, on the whole, be very equitable, regard must be had to the circumstances, I think, of individual areas, and, even at the risk of appearing to create anomalies consideration should be given, I suggest, to areas of large populations and very small valuations as compared with areas that have very high valuations and a very low population.

This is not the first time the House has heard that argument from me. I am sure it is 20 years, if not more, since I first mentioned it. As we gain experience from the numbers who are looking for hospital and specialised treatment in the different areas, I am sure the administration will be able to modify, adjust or increase, if necessary, in particular cases, the amount which the State has to provide by way of recoupment.

With regard to the general questions raised by the Minister in his opening statement, he states that £1,250,000 will be sufficient this year to supplement the Hospitals' Trust Fund and that it is expected that the fund will be adequate to meet all the calls on it. He goes on to point out that, fortunately for the Exchequer, the Hospitals' Trust Fund has been very prosperous in recent years and that, with the addition of the £1,250,000 from the Exchequer, the amount available for grants will be about £3,000,000 next year. Of that £2,000,000 will be spent on buildings and about £800,000 on other grants. I have a great deal of sympathy with the point of view expressed by Deputy Briscoe that, in spite of the fact that the situation is looking very prosperous from the point of view of the Hospitals' Trust, we do not know whether that situation will continue.

It strikes me that if betting is legalised across the water it may affect certain changes. However, perhaps the Hospitals' Trust Fund feels that it will be able to deal with that situation. It may happen that should there be a change in the economic climate generally over there, such a change would affect the income of the Hospitals' Trust here. One of the first things to suffer would be institutions for gaming, betting, lotteries or anything of that nature.

It must strike the ordinary person that it would be of tremendous advantage to the hospitals to feel that they could get out of a position in which they have to be begging the Government every year to come to their aid to meet their deficits. I quite understand the difficulties of that matter from the point of view of the Government. The Minister does not want to encourage the hospitals to build up their deficits. He wants them to do everything possible to reduce them. Why should a certain amount of the funds now available not be put aside definitely for the purpose to provide for the hospitals' deficits in the years to come? It is rather risky having all these things coming on the National Exchequer. We have superannuations as well as salaries growing at a tremendous rate and they all have to be met in the annual Estimates. In recent years, the Exchequer has had frequently to come to the assistance of hospitals in order to meet their deficits.

I certainly think there is something in the suggestion of having a fund of this kind set aside for the particular and very important purpose of ensuring that the hospitals will not have to depend upon the whim of a particular Minister or Administration to meet their deficits and that there should be a definite provision in a large fund, amounting to some millions, put aside as a definite security that these deficits will be met. When we consider that the Hospitals' Trust Fund has provided about £20,000,000 in the last seven years in grants to hospitals, it certainly does not seem equitable that the position as regards hospital deficits should be left in the hazardous position in which it has been for some years past.

I notice that the Minister, in referring to the building programme, said that four major schemes costing about £6,000,000 represented a large part of the programme. Three of the four hospitals are in Dublin and one in Cork. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to say, when replying, what number of beds will be provided in each of these hospitals and what is the estimated cost per bed. What is the reason that the cost has gone up to £4,000 per bed? I find it hard to credit that it is that amount. What is the reason for that? One would imagine that with modern methods, in spite of all the things necessary in a modern hospital and in spite of all the things for which the architects have to provide that £3,000 a bed, which was the figure mentioned when we were in office, would be quite sufficient.

This Estimate provides for a health service for this country for the next 12 months. On the face of it, it is a fairly staggering figure. It is all the more so when we find that practically £8,000,000 will have to come from the ratepayers. It is unfortunate that the design in this House, in recent times, has been to divert responsibility for revenue to the ratepayers of the country. Had the Health Bill been designed so that all the liability for revenue would fall on the Central Exchequer, our legislators would be more cautious in implementing the services under a Bill of this kind. I think that the ratepayers have now passed breaking point, that it is doubtful whether this source of revenue will survive in coming years and whether the people will be able to meet the liabilities which fall upon them.

We were glad to hear from the Minister that the scourge of T.B. is well on its way out. The Minister and his Department are to be congratulated on their efforts in dealing with a menace which was so formidable here in recent years. The Minister pointed out that the incidence of diphtheria had become more obvious in recent months. That is not the fault of the Minister or the Department. They have made various appeals to the people to avail of the services of immunisation. It is too bad there is no compulsion behind that service to safeguard the people against the menace which these diseases constitute.

The Schools Medical Service has been referred to, and of all the services provided I doubt if any one can be as effective and efficient. But is it efficient at the moment? I doubt it and I believe it will never be until it is administered through the local dispensary officers, acting under the county medical officers of health. These men live among the people; they know them; they know their predisposition to disease; and they will be more interested in the welfare of the children in their respective localities. The medical officers have a staff who are often birds of passage. They come along as officials and cannot be expected to have the same interest as the dispensary doctors in the welfare of the children in the individual areas.

Somebody referred to polio. I think that should be in a special category and that its victims should qualify for the special allowance under the Health Act. I know of a case of a man who is a complete cripple; he cannot use his arms and legs. Yet he has been refused the allowance under the Health Act because he lives with relatives although they are in fairly frugal circumstances. It would be a great comfort for those people if they had some little source of revenue for themselves.

Various compliments were passed on this side of the House on the implementation of this Act. I am not a convert to this Health Act. I think its effects have many deplorable, demeaning features, that it is altogether contrary to our set-up here, that it was hastily conceived and put through the House impetuously. It is largely based on the pattern in Great Britain. When the British Bill was introduced, it was estimated it would cost about £2,000,000 annually. I believe it costs £560,000,000 now. The same thing could occur here in a country poor and with different circumstances. We have none of the limitless mineral resources of Great Britain and therefore cannot afford this growing liability. The Health Act itself will destroy the whole moral fibre of our people and——

The Deputy seems to be embarking on a discussion on the Health Act which is not before the House.

I do not want the people opposite to be under any misconception that on this side of the House we are all in favour of the Health Act. Reference was made to rehabilitation and I think one way of relieving congestion in hospitals is that each hospital should be encouraged to have a rehabilitation centre of their own for their convalescent patients. Patients in their convalescence could be diverted to these homes and allowed to remain in them until their treatment was finished in an atmosphere free from all discipline.

Deputy McGrath referred to the necessity for the regional hospital in Cork. I should like to point out to the Minister that there is no necessity for a regional hospital in Cork. The more that has been discussed, the greater has the volume of opinion grown in that regard. Eighty per cent. of the people in Cork County and City are convinced that there is no necessity for it. It was estimated it would cost £1,800,000. I expect that will reach £2,500,000 now and why spend that sum on a project for which there is no glaring necessity? The construction of this hospital has been delayed during the past 20 years. I see no reason why it should not be delayed still further.

I was in a voluntary hospital in Cork during the past three weeks and the hospital authorities there told me they had many beds vacant. If beds are available now at this time of the year, there will be many more of them vacant during the summer months and when the regional hospital in West Cork is completed it will relieve the congestion completely, if there is any congestion in the city. Deputy McGrath also referred to St. Finbar's Hospital. It is quite possible to have extensions carried out to that hospital. Many of these voluntary hospitals in Cork are prepared and ready to extend their accommodation, were grants available from the Department. These grants were refused, however.

The sanatorium at Sarsfield Court was mentioned. We all admire the creative genius of our achitects, but those who are closely associated with this hospital maintain, as I do myself, that the scattered formation of this hospital entails a great deal of extra cost on maintenance. It will also mean discomfort for the staffs and will preclude the possibility of close supervision. I think we should guard against this sort of thing in future designs and constructions.

We should remember one thing when we talk on this Estimate. Those who initiated and designed the hospitals sweepstakes should forever get the gratitude of the Irish people, because no greater boon was ever conferred on the nation than the funds made available through the planning, a quarter of a century ago, of those who started the hospital sweeps.

I have listened to speaker after speaker from the Government Benches and the one thing by which I have been rather bemused and somewhat confused is the attitude of the present Government and of the Minister in respect of the matters for which provision is being made in this Estimate. These are the new decisions and the new provisions of the present Health Act. I have become almost completely confused listening to the supporters of the Minister talking with different voices about this matter and about these provisions. The Minister himself, who is the person directly concerned with the introduction of these new measures, had something to say about the matter in his introductory speech and he stated here that, when the 1953 Act, which is the Act under which these new provisions are to be operated, came before the House, he was opposed to such legislation and that at the time it was passed he did not regard it as providing good services nor did he regard it as something that could be of lasting benefit.

That is what the Minister said to-night and he goes on still further in the same statement to say that half of the cost which must now be borne for these new services will fall on the shoulders of the local authorities; in other words, on the ratepayers who are already overburdened. He goes considerably out of his way to point out that this new impost created by these new services is not the fault of the present Minister; it is purely a question of the 1953 Act. Now, I have on another occasion and with another Minister found this same type of evasion, evasion of responsibility when something unpleasant has to be done. The unpleasant parts are blamed on the previous Administration and any popularity, good, or advantage that can be derived is claimed by the serving Minister.

It seems to me—I have said this before—that the ghosts of former Ministers of the Fianna Fáil Cabinet still hold sway on the other side of the House, irrespective of what individual occupies the position of Minister. So it is in this Estimate speech of the Ministers we heard to-day. We found him reiterating his opposition to the present Health Act, to its terms and provisions and all that goes with it. At the same time, as the responsible Minister, he is, by his own act, on behalf of his Government, bringing into operation the very thing he always opposed, and still opposes—the very thing he does not believe is a good thing.

It is small wonder that I, other members of this House and the public outside are completely befuddled about this whole thing. If it is not good and if it is going to cost so much to the taxpayer and the ratepayer why should this Government and a Minister who believes the Act contains many evils, now come along and implement it?

Is the Deputy right in that? I think I said I did not regard it as the best or the ultimate in the matter of health legislation.

Quite so. If the Minister is mending his hand and wishes by that explanation to give me to understand——

That is, in fact, what I did say.

I have what the Minister did say here and I also have a recollection——

Will the Deputy look at page 5?

——of what the Minister said on this same Act some time ago when he described it as unworkable. The Minister cannot now deny that statement. It is not in his statement today admittedly, but I am sure he will not deny that he did say it was unworkable.

I said it was my concern to make it workable and I believed I had made it workable.

The Minister said it was unworkable. His own Party said it was incapable of implementation. Yet, this Act incapable of implementation, unworkable a year or a year-and-a-half ago, is now being put into operation by the Minister. When he finds in it anything that may irk the people, such as the extra cost on the ratepayer and the taxpayer, he proceeds to blame the previous Government for that because it was the previous Government who introduced the Act in 1953. On the other hand, we find his Cabinet colleagues going out publicly and saying that the provisions of the Health Act, which are now being put into operation, are something of which this Minister should be proud.

We had Deputy Rooney here this evening saying that the services were too dear and that they could be much cheaper. We had Deputy Giles saying that half the services would suffice and that we have too many services at the moment. Where can we get a true picture of the situation? Where can we look? To whom may we look? Of whom can we ask the question: Is this Act being implemented with the cooperation of the Minister and his Department and the Government? Will it be implemented and worked by the I.M.A? Reluctantly they agreed to work it. Can it also be said of the Government and the Minister and their supporters that they are reluctantly putting this Act into operation? If that is so, why can we not have a clear and unequivocal statement to that effect? Why can we not have a statement from the Minister?

Why can we not have at the same time the Minister's reasons as to why we should have only reluctant co-operation on the part of himself and his Government in this matter? They are the bosses. They are the people who are responsible for putting these provisions into effect. The 1953 Act gives them legal sanction to do that. Until the Minister made up his mind to make the Orders and Regulations concerning these matters, the relevant sections of the Act could not come into operation. It is now the direct responsibility of the Minister. Any disadvantages that accrue from the Act cannot be excused by the Minister blaming the previous Government because they introduced the Act. He cannot say that he is still opposed to it simply because he believes it is not ultimately the best. No one on this side of the House has ever claimed at any time that it is the ultimate best in regard to health services. At no time was that claim made. It is small excuse for anybody to-day to stand up and say he is opposed to it, or was opposed to it, because it was not the ultimate best. That is wholly misleading.

Listening to the various speakers talking here to-night, and to the views expressed from the Government Benches, I believe this is something into which the Fine Gael Party was pushed. They did not want to do it, but they are being made to do it. Now, if that is the case—and I think it is— in fairness to us and in fairness to the country as a whole, we should be told if that is so, and we should also be told who is doing the pushing. We should be told who is now using the whip on Fine Gael, straightening them so much that they can now swallow anything and everything they said against the Health Act in 1953 and are now prepared to implement it, on the Front Bench, at any rate, despite the fact that the back benchers are still opposed to it.

That is a feature of policy at the present time—trying to have it both ways. That is what is now being tried on here and I can say that in the very near future we will be hearing a good deal more about it in places further afield than this House. Deputy Manley is still opposed to the 1953 Health Act; yet he is a supporter of the Government. Deputy Giles and Deputy Rooney are opposed to certain provisions in it. I now ask Deputy Giles and Deputy Rooney will they put their cards on the table when the debate ends and continue their opposition to the Act? Will they vote against this Estimate, the purpose of which is to provide money in the current financial year for services to which they are opposed? Will they do that? Or will we continue to have this "Face right and face left, and try to face both ways at one and the same time, so that we can cod the people all the time?" If that is what they intend to do, then we have had it. If, on the other hand, these three Deputies have genuine objections still to the Act, then, in addition to recording their objections, they should take a more firm stand and vote against this Estimate.

The Minister to-day talked of the increased burden that will be placed on the rates; he said that half the burden entailed in these new services is the direct result of the 1953 Health Act and, therefore, he can wash his hands of any responsibility. Just for the sake of argument we will, for the moment, grant the Minister his contention that because he did not introduce the 1953 Act, he is powerless to-day in so far as its implementation is concerned. Let us assume that he cannot stop its operation and that he is being pushed from the left or the right into putting these sections into operation. Having made that assumption, let us then find out where the extra costs are coming in.

Where do they arise? Is it not true that, under this section, there will be extra fees, increased new revised fees, paid to the doctors in the country? Is it not true that the fees were arrived at between the Minister and the I.M.A. in an arbitrary manner which only shows that local representation counts for nothing? The county councils are the people who must foot the bill for half of the increase granted to these doctors in regard to these new services. Surely, the local representatives on these county councils were entitled to have as much say in the bargaining behind-closed-door negotiations that went on as the Minister?

Why should the county councils not have been consulted in this matter? Why should the I.M.A. and the Minister get together and agree that an increase of a few pence per patient will be granted to the doctors operating the maternity service in the lower income group? Since the local authorities have to pay half the bill, should we in the local authorities not have some representation when these negotiations were going on? It is a case of taxation without representation—a bargain made behind closed doors in an effort to bring in the I.M.A. reluctantly to work an Act with which the Minister said to-night he does not agree. He was opposed to the Act and is still opposed to it. It is a sad state of affairs that we can have a responsible Minister of State in the position to-day that he opposes something, and yet works it and puts it into operation. Having done so, he comes along and says he does not like it and does not agree with it, but will go ahead with it. It is a mystery to me to know where we stand.

Why is it being put into operation, if it is not good? Why inflict the extra cost on our taxpayers, our local authorities and, through them, the ratepayers? Why should these burdens be placed on the people if, in the estimation of the Minister and his Government, it is a wrong thing to do, a bad thing and something that is not worth paying money for? I find some of the statements on page 5 of the script of his speech absolutely confusing. I feel that the public generally will find them likewise. I believe also that the public and this House are entitled to a full explanation as to exactly what are the Government's intentions in regard to this Act.

Are we going to have these things scrapped in six months' time? Are we going to have another meeting between the Minister and the Medical Association and are we going to have further increased fees over the old fees paid last year? If there are negotiations in future, would the Minister do one thing, no matter what they are about? If the local authorities are asked to pay money to any of their servants and if these servants are health servants coming under the Minister's control, I would seriously ask the Minister to consult with all the local authorities before he commits them to pay money to any servant in their employ. That is only a fair request. The matter is an outstanding grievance so far as those of us who are members of local authorities are concerned.

This matter of cost to the local authorities may have had its first start under the 1953 Act. At the same time, however, the new increase in fees to our doctors is something that has been carried out by the Minister on his own bat, or with the support of his Cabinet. At any rate, you cannot blame the 1953 Act for increasing the fees to the doctors and thereby increasing the cost to the local authorities and the ratepayers. Those are things for which the Minister must bear full responsibility. He cannot hide behind the 1953 Act or the ghost of the former Minister for Health.

Since we are on these matters of costs and fees, I should like to draw the Minister's attention also to a further matter. Why should dispensary doctors get fees at all for doing maternity cases in the lower income group, since they are being paid a substantial salary already for treating those classes? I cannot see why they should get fees or why they should get increased fees in the past few weeks.

Because of the high salaries they enjoy already, the dispensary doctors hold a virtual monopoly in their districts which precludes competition. Why then should they be given fees to look after maternity cases in the lower income group? At the same time, under the new agreement made with the maternity nurses, the Minister saw fit to say that no maternity nurse or district midwife may be paid for any case within any 12 month period until the twenty-sixth case is reached. Why should that be the case? Is it that the nurses and midwives organisation was not sufficiently influential and did not compare in calibre or in influence with that of the I.M.A.?

Why should we have to draw this clear and absolute distinction? Why should we have a figure fixed for one which is a little over half of what is fixed for the other? At the same time, it may be true to say that the nurse in the case may have a lot of work to do and more visits to pay than the doctor. Those are the things I want to learn about and I think a lot of our people in the county would like to know about them also. The Minister is responsible for those self-same regulations and agreements in regard to payments which the 1953 Act did not specify. The Minister has made these agreements. The county council in my county and the county councils elsewhere must foot the bill for half the costs. We were not told that these negotiations were going on. We were not consulted in any way whatsoever in the matter. I think that taxation without representation is a poor shadow of democracy.

Leaving aside the side-stepping of the Coalition Government in this respect and in regard to the provisions of the Health Act, let us come then to some of the other matters that are at the moment in need of attention. I should like to deal with the question of mentally defective children and old people. You will find that in many mental hospitals those two categories are mixed up with the other patients, through no fault of the administration of those hospitals. But the fact is that that situation exists. Mentally defective children should surely have no place in an ordinary mental hospital and neither should those people who have reached an age when senile decay more than anything else has set in. The lot of those people is not a very happy one. They are, in fact, not suited to the institutions to which they have been sent. We have no other institution in many cases to which they might be sent. I join with those other Deputies who asked the Minister to try to do something more in regard to these two categories.

When we talk about the I.D. allowances we usually, in 99 cases out of 100, really talk about T.B. allowances as they have come to be known generally. These T.B. allowances call for revision in regard to every type of wage earner and salaried worker who in the recent past have had increases passed on to them. I join with the other members in asking the Minister favourably to consider increasing these allowances. Particular attention should be directed to the question of the domestic allowance, as suggested by Deputy Brennan, where such allowance is not paid to a relative who looks after the children of a T.B. patient who has gone to hospital. If a T.B. mother goes to hospital and a relative comes in to look after the children, such relative is more likely to look after the children better than any other type of person. But because that person is a relative and even though doing the work at great hardship, the domestic allowance is denied in that case. I feel that is an injustice. It is something that is a blot on this very fine service. I join with Deputy Brennan in asking the Minister very specially to look into this matter.

The plight of disabled persons was mentioned earlier in the night. I should also wish to add my voice to those already raised asking that this allowance might be administered with less severity in regard to the question of means and in some cases with less severity in regard to the question of the disability of the person concerned.

Does the Deputy refer to disability or disablement allowances?

It is the same thing.

One is a matter for the Minister for Defence.

Perhaps the little Parliamentary Secretary would keep his small mouth closed.

I am only trying to help the Deputy.

Ever since the Deputy sat in this House as Parliamentary Secretary he has endeavoured to interrupt me but if he thinks to put me off he has another guess coming. These allowances are being administered at the moment fairly under the regulations but I think the regulations are rather stringent both in regard to the question of the disability of the person concerned and certainly in regard to the means of the household in which the person resides. I would ask that that matter should also be considered favourably by the Minister when seeking to alleviate the circumstances surrounding that type of case.

The question of voluntary nursing organisations was mentioned by the Minister in his speech to-night. Like many other Deputies, I, too, would ask the Minister to give a full explanation in his reply as to what he really intends doing in regard to these people. Deputy MacCarthy, who spoke earlier to-night, referred to this matter. You will find that in all rural areas where that service is given, very often the nurses have no means of transport available and their time is often taken up endlessly, uselessly and wastefully in cycling as many as 16 to 20 miles in the course of their day's work. I feel that much more good work could be done if some better means of transport than an ordinary push bicycle were made available to these voluntary nurses.

These nurses are paid very much less than the nurses employed by local authorities. If we are to have a public nursing service established in a county where we have a voluntary nursing service existing, we will find in one dispensary district one nurse doing the work envisaged under this Act for half the amount the nurses in the next dispensary district will be getting. That is surely a position that could not go on. It might start but it certainly could not continue for the simple reason that the nurses getting half the pay would naturally opt to go in to the other scheme of things and try to get appointments direct through the local authority.

If the Minister wants to avoid that situation, he must have regard to the remuneration now being paid to these nurses and he must have regard to the means at the disposal of the local associations by which these nurses may be paid. These voluntary organisations are finding it difficult to keep up with increasing costs and in many cases they find it almost impossible to raise the extra amount required year in, year out. As costs rise, they find it more difficult to meet them. Over the years the voluntary nurse's pay has been falling in comparison with her counterpart in the public health service. If we want to have these people continue, the situation must be remedied and not by merely asking the organisations to do something about it.

I am afraid the Minister will have to consult with the organisations and see if he can provide any further funds to supplement the voluntary efforts. That is one way of solving the matter and the other is that mentioned by Deputy McGrath who referred to the question of transport. There is no point in having a nurse in a district who spends three-quarters of her waking hours pushing a bicycle to do two or three cases when, in fact, if she had a proper transport system, she could do ten or 12 cases in the same time much better and with less hardship to herself.

I would ask the Minister to consider in future, when dealing with any particular group of workers employed by a local authority in their health sections, consulting the local authorities if there is a question of increased remuneration. I have seen—I know I will see more of it in the near future— cases where a particular group are granted an increase negotiated directly between their organisation and the Minister, and the Minister sends a circular letter to the local authorities saying he is prepared to sanction a sum not exceeding a stated figure. The next move is that one county is approached first. That county is told the Minister has made an agreement and has granted an increase. The local authority has no option but to concede the increase. The local authority may concede the increase and so on with the next local authority. It is stated that such and such a local authority gave the increase yesterday and that there is no reason why this local authority should not give it to-day.

I have noticed a trend which has not, I am sure, escaped the attention of other members of local authorities. That is, that the weakest local authorities are those before which these claims are first put. It is like a snowball that gains weight as it goes the rounds and in the end it is a very large snowball indeed. When nearly all the local authorities in the country have agreed, those who may not be disposed to grant what the Minister said he would be prepared to sanction are cracked down upon. That has been in operation. It is in operation. Surely the local authority representatives should have a say in negotiations with any group where payment of the ratepayers money is concerned. It may be rather complicated to get agreement with the local authorities all interested and all participating in the negotiations. However, irrespective of how difficult it may be, I feel it is the just due of the elected representatives of the different local authorities that they should have a say in the expenditure of the moneys they are going to collect from the local ratepayers. If they are going to collect it, they are responsible for paying it out. If they are responsible for paying it out, I submit they should have some responsibility in deciding how, to whom and in what amounts it will be paid out. The Minister can do something about that. I strongly recommend that he should look into this matter very thoroughly.

The general tone of the opening remarks of some of the speakers from this side of the House was to congratulate the Minister in respect of the past year and particularly to congratulate him on his conversion and on the conversion of the Government to the view that the Health Act is something our people should have. Many speakers started on that note and I shall finish on it and express the hope that the conversion is a complete and absolute success.

Ní bheidh mé chomh fada ar an Meastachán seo agus a bhí roinnt cainteoirí eile, ach tá cúpla rud faoi leith go mba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dóibh agus treoir agus eolas d'fháil ón Aire fúthu. Tá ceist amháin atá an-achrannach i ngeall ar go dtagann tuairim theioniciúil isteach ann—is é sin, liúntais díchumais do dhaoine atá á fháil in gach paróiste in Eirinn agus, fairíor géar, atá breoite tinn agus gan aon leigheas dóibh, daoine arb eol nach mbeidh siad i ndon a mbeatha a shaothrú dóibh féin agus a bhfuil gá le cabhair ón bpobal dóibh.

Tá an t-am tagtha anois go bhfuil sé soiléir do dhaoine údarásacha mar Airí Stáit, Teachtaí Dála, baill chomhairlí contae, and mar sin de, go bhfuil sé de dhualgas ar mhuintir na hÉireann—ar ndóighe, daoine Críostúla iad—teacht i gcabhair, ar dhaoine ar leag Dia lámh orthu agus are fhág sé tinneas orthu, daoine nach mbeidh i ndon a mbeatha féin a shaothrú agus atá ag braith ar a muintir féin chun iad a chothú sa mbaile agus, gan aon dabht ar domhan, tá an t-ádh ar dhaoine den tsaghas sin má tá daoine muinteartha acu a dhéanfas sin dóibh.

Sé an fáth go bhfuil achrann sa cheist seo anois ná go bhfuil cuid mhaith de na daoine sin á ndícháiliú ag na dochtúirí, adeireann nach bhfuil roinnt mhaith díobh díchumasaithe ó thaobh na ndochtúirí sa scéal. Bhí mé féin i ndeacracht go minic leis na húdaráis sláinte i nGaillimh mar gheall air uimhir mhaith de na cásanna sin. Im thuairimse ba chóir don Aire comhthionóil a dhéanamh de na dochtúirí oifigiúla sa tír go léir i riocht is go leogfar síos caighdeán i dtaobh na seirbhísí i dtreo is nach mbeidh sé le rá go bhfuilimid ag mugadh magadh ar an gceist seo, ag ligean orainn go bhfuilimid ag tabhairt cabhair don aicme seo daoine nuair táimid ag baint an chirt díobh, ceart a ceapadh dóibh ag Parlaimint na tire seo.

The matter to which I should like to refer most particularly is the need for some direction as to what degree of disability entitles disabled persons to benefit under the disablement provisions of the Health Act. I do not think there is any Deputy in this House but could cite a case in his constituency in which the gravest disappointment exists because of decisions made by the official doctors turning down what is described as "a chronic invalid". We know that there are chronics and chronics but surely the public are pretty good judges, without the aid of any technical knowledge, as to what the genuine case is and what is not. I have come across a number of cases in my constituency in which the public, the neighbours of these people on whom the hand of God has fallen pretty heavily—and there is no other way to describe their disability —quite automatically, in their mind, deem them to come within these particular provisions. Everybody agrees that, whatever else one might say about the Health Act, and there was a good deal of controversy about it, at any rate this seemed to be a section which was accorded pretty unanimous support by the public. Therefore, it is most disappointing to find that cases have been turned down on what is purely technical medical ground.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 11th April, 1956.
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