Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 May 1956

Vol. 156 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. — (Deputy Beegan.)

Mr. McQuillan

When I reported progress on this Vote, I was outlining the position with regard to the hardships imposed on the people in the Shannon Valley, through years of constant flooding. I have no intention, at this stage, of repeating my remarks on that important matter, except to say to the Parliamentary Secretary that I hope there will be no dilly-dallying about implementing the report and the recommendations of the engineering expert who came here to carry out a survey of the Shannon Valley problem.

In connection with drainage in general, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to clarify the position with special reference to drainage problems in the West. We know that the Corrib will take approximately ten years to complete and that the overall cost of that scheme is £2,000,000. The people in other areas who suffer from flooding are anxious to know whether or not schemes for the drainage of the Suck, the Moy and other rivers will be carried out before the actual completion of the Corrib scheme.

Ten years is a long time to look forward to, so far as the drainage of the Suck and the Moy is concerned, and I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would give some hope to the people whose lands are flooded in the vicinity of these catchment areas that they will not have to wait another eight years before getting some satisfaction or amelioration of the situation. The people along the Corrib are very lucky in having the Parliamentary Secretary to back their case. I have heard it said that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance is the Parliamentary Secretary for North Galway. I do not believe that; I believe that, if he gets a fair opportunity, other areas besides North Galway will reap the benefit.

Naturally enough, I am greatly interested in the problems of the people whose lands adjoin the River Suck. The Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor, Deputy Beegan, knows the position intimately, as far as the problems of the Suck catchment area are concerned.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

He was the Parliamentary Secretary for South Galway.

Mr. McQuillan

Thanks be to God, we have not got one for West Cork. The position with regard to the Suck is that a great deal of the land adjoining it is not of the highest quality, as far as agricultural purposes are concerned, although a great deal of it is quite good land; but there are more families living alongside the Suck than there are alongside any other river in Ireland. The population basis should be the best argument in favour of giving priority to the Suck. I know that when the Brosna was put number one on the priority list, the reason given was that a great deal of first class land was being flooded in its vicinity. Although you might have a great deal of good land being flooded, there were less people making a living on that good land than along the banks of the Suck. It is a matter of whether you will deal with these things on a material basis and whether the farmer who has 300 or 400 acres of land, 40 or 50 of which are flooded, is to get priority over a village where there are 18 families, with about 100 acres of land between them. I think the human element and the fact that these families depend on such small holdings, and have to utilise all the land at their disposal to the utmost, should give them priority, as far as drainage is concerned.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to assure us that, when the actual survey work on the Suck is completed, there will be no question of delay in putting the actual drainage work into operation. I hope there will be no statement made here by the Parliamentary Secretary that finance is the bogey, that money is not available and that the people concerned will have to have patience.

Great play is being made in rural Ireland at the moment with the suggestion that people should be thankful to whatever Government is in power that a sum of £2,000,000 is to be spent on the Corrib catchment area over a period of ten years. That is only £200,000 a year. While the people are being told to be thankful for this expenditure, the Parliamentary Secretary, under the direction of the Government, has been spending £500,000 in making a runway for jet aeroplanes outside Dublin. It is a matter of first things first. If people down the country are to be told that they must be thankful for getting a certain amount of money to drain their land, it must be realised that, up in headquarters, there is great expenditure, and it is quite open to argument as to whether that expenditure is absolutely essential or not.

I feel sure that when the Parliamentary Secretary found that one of his responsibilities was to construct a new runway for obsolete jet aeroplanes, he objected to the expenditure of a large capital sum on a matter of that nature at this time. I know he cannot be responsible for every member of the Government, but I hope he made it quite clear, when he was directed to carry out this work on the construction of new runways, that he wanted more money for drainage purposes and for schools. I will not say any more on drainage.

Looking at the Vote, I see that there is a reduction of £353,000 under sub-head H, for Public Works and Buildings. I want to get this clear. This Government has made it quite clear in their election speeches that they are committed to a reduction in the cost of administration of Government Departments, and I understand that this is one of the reductions that is being carried out. It is one of the promises being carried out, but it seems extraordinary to me that this reduction is shown in the Book of Estimates and deals with schemes where the employment content could be well worth while, at a time when we have a large number of unemployed and a high rate of emigration. If it is the Government's intention to reduce expenses, can the Parliamentary Secretary tell me whether there is a reduction in his Department of the Board of Works which is concerned in this reduction on expenditure on public buildings? If there is to be a reduction of £350,000 on useful schemes, is it not fair and reasonable to suggest that there should be a proportionate reduction in the administrative section of this Department? I will bet my last dollar that there is not one civil servant or official going to lose his place, in spite of the fact that there is a reduction in the Department which deals with public works and buildings.

This is a very interesting position. I know that if you appoint a civil servant two steps up the ladder, he will have to have at least two more under him. Once you appoint him, it would practically take the joint efforts of all the Cabinet Ministers to have him removed, or all the civil servants in every other Department would be on their heads. Without being personal, I would say to the Parliamentary Secretary that we both need a fine comb these days to keep the spare ribs on top in place, but one would not need a fine comb to rake up the spare files in the Department of Public Works. A good big hay rake would bring up enough spare files in the different Departments and the result of this action would be a considerable reduction in the expenditure on the Civil Service.

One of the justifiable complaints the people have to-day is the heavy burden of Government services, particularly the administrative end. The Board of Works have shown a reduction in expenditure on buildings and so forth, and surely they should be in a position to show a corresponding reduction in the personnel who administer these matters. I have no dealings with technical experts. I am all for the employment of engineers and technical men who are essential to plan out arterial drainage and to put the schemes into operation, but I certainly have a strong objection to keeping, for the sake of employment, a top heavy Civil Service.

I do not suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should make it his business to dismiss them. Of course, that is an impossibility, having regard to the safeguards that are given to the Civil Service. I agree that there should be a feeling of security for those employed by the State, but the Parliamentary Secretary should make it his business to see that, where there are extra staff twiddling their thumbs in his Department — that must be the case as a result of the reduction in expenditure — they should be transferred to other Departments where their services can be properly utilised. I will not say any more about that on this Vote, because I think I can deal with it on a broader basis on some other Estimate.

One point I omitted to deal with earlier on the matter of arterial drainage was the question of workers. Again, I do not know whether or not other speakers referred to this. At all events, I think the wages paid to the workers engaged on arterial drainage at the present time are scandalous. The wages paid to county council employees vary, as we know, from county to county, but, to my knowledge, even the lowest paid county council worker has at least 10/- a week more than his colleague who works on arterial drainage.

I need not elaborate to the House on the type of work involved in arterial drainage. We know that at the present moment a certain amount of protection is afforded workers by the issue of rubber thigh boots, waterproof coats and so forth, but at times of the year this work is pretty tough. It involves a considerable amount of hardship and if we are to keep men on this, to get them to work and to give of their best, there will have to be a big step-up in the wages in order to give justice to these men.

There is one point to which I want to refer back concerning schools. The other night, I told the Parliamentary Secretary of the delay in connection with the building of schools. From the time an application was made to erect a school until the construction of the school began, there was often a delay of four and five years. When speaking on that occasion, I had put down a question, but the answer was not available to me while I was speaking, but, luckily enough, I got it yesterday.

The Parliamentary Secretary pointed out that the same amount of money is made available for the erection of new schools as last year. In 1954-55, £1,350,000 was made available for the construction of new schools. In the following year, 1955-56, there was a sum of £1,350,000 again. I understand the same sum is provided this year, but, in the two years I mentioned, the Board of Works did not go within £300,000 of that figure. The figure in the Estimates shown as being available for the building of schools is pure bluff. I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary personally in this. When we see £1,350,000 in the Vote for Public Works, the suggestion is that that sum will be spent on the erection of new schools.

I have a tabular statement given to me yesterday, and as far as I can ascertain the Department spent all the money allocated for the erection of new new schools in only three years during the past 20 years. I should like an explanation for that. If we have a sum of £1,350,000 in the Book of Estimates for the building of new schools, why is is we did not go within £500,000 of that expenditure? Where does the blame lie? What is responsible for that position? Does it not justify my argument the other evening that a Minister for Finance, no matter who he is, wants to keep down expenditure, and at the same time does not want the public and this House down on top of his head? The simplest way he can have it is, when the local parish priest or a group of people in a parish——

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Donnellan)

Now the Deputy is coming to it.

Mr. McQuillan

——make an application for a new school, the Department of Education hatch on it for a while. A deputation has to come to Dublin to see some of the officials in the Department of Education and the minute a Deputy notifies the Department that the parish priest and group down the country are getting pretty annoyed over the matter, the Department of Education leap into action, and, when it comes to the time the Board of Works appear on the job, about three years have elapsed.

Mr. Donnellan

Do not blame us for the three years.

Mr. McQuillan

There is a crossfire as far as correspondence is concerned. The people write and ask what the delay is, and then a letter is written. When that letter comes to the Board of Works, there is possibly an acknowledgement of the letter within a week, but then they have to consider further and make investigations. That takes another six months. Then, they will reply to the people in the parish and say that such and such a point has not been dealt with. Perhaps it is a very minor point in connection with the fireplace in the school.

That reply goes from the Board of Works back to the school manager and that gives them a glorious opportunity to hold money in the Department for another three months. That is the skilful way in which the Board of Works acts as a watchdog on the public purse for the Minister for Finance. Between the Department of Education and the Board of Works the people who look for a school are unfortunate shuttlecocks. The ball is hopped down the country now and then in order to keep the people in touch with the situation. I have no intention of going into details but I should just like the Parliamentary Secretary when replying to give us the objections on the part of his office to having the responsibility for the erection of new schools charged up to the Department of Education.

Mr. Donnellan

I was hoping the manager would come into it.

Mr. McQuillan

You will not catch me on that issue and I will not make any comment on it. I agree to this extent with both the Parliamentary Secretary and his predecessor, that very often as far as the managers are concerned there is delay there too. I will not put the entire blame on the Board of Works but the technical faults that are found of a very minor nature by the Board of Works are, in my opinion, not of such serious import as to warrant the holding up of the construction of a school. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will have to agree with me that it is a God-send to the Board of Works to find on occasions a school manager who is slow to carry out his end of the work. That gives an opportunity to the Board of Works to blame all the applicants, all the school managers all over Ireland and to put them all in the same boat as this lazy-bones. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary not to try to get out of the difficulty by quoting to me certain school managers who have been slow to carry out their work. It is no good tarring all these people with the one brush.

There is one other point before I conclude, something that has been brought to my attention here in Dublin and elsewhere — the condition of Kilmainham Jail. I understand from many people who are interested that Kilmainham Jail is in the hands of the Board of Works. I do not know how accurate the information available to me is, but I understand that this building is rapidly falling into a state of ruin. That may be true as far as the superficial aspects are concerned but I think that the structure itself is pretty sound.

Apart from all that, I think the proposal which was made here pre-war to turn the building into a museum memorial should be carried out. Above any building in the State, it has the most historic connections. Its associations with 1798, the Fenians, Parnell, the Land League, 1916, up to the present time, are such that to turn this into a national monument or museum memorial will embrace a period of at least 300 years, the richest period of Irish history. I hope the day will not be long delayed when a firm proposal will be accepted and actual work will be done to have that proposal implemented.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Níl mórán agamsa le rá faoin gcheist seo i dtaobh obair Bord na nOibreacha Poiblí. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil a lán dualgas ar an mbord agus níor mhaith liom iad do cháineadh, mar tuigim go bhfuil sé andeacair sroicheadh chun gach gné dá gcuid dualgas.

In Vote 8, there is a sub-head for National Monuments Grant and provision for staff in that connection. I should like if the Parliamentary Secretary, in replying, would tell us whether he is satisfied that everything possible is being done by the staff of the office in connection with the preservation of buildings of architectural or historic value in the City of Dublin as well as in the country. We have the Dublin Corporation planning organisation and I have no doubt they are very wise men who plan very carefully and take all these aspects into consideration, any historic sites that may be included in the areas which are being replanned.

I was rather alarmed, however, to hear that there does not seem to be any public notice given if a building or a structure is being demolished; it may not be a house but some relic of an old wall, we will say, part of the old wall of Dublin or something in conjunction therewith. That can suddenly disappear without persons who may be interested in this matter knowing anything about it. It might be considered that it is not the business of the planning department to inform the intelligentsia — however they might describe them; let us call them, for example, the Old Dublin Society — as to what they propose to do, but when people give their time voluntarily and a good deal of labour oftentimes to work of this kind to try and preserve what is distinctive, and what those who have given any thought to the matter must consider something of the greatest importance here in our capital city, they ought to be consulted about these changes. If they make suggestions it ought to be assumed that they are making them not out of a desire merely to be critical or superior but to be honestly helpful and to prevent something being done which if it is done, cannot be undone afterwards.

It is really tragic to hear of old houses of the 18th century being pulled down. The house in which Dean Swift was born disappeared long ago, a great loss to the city, but in our own time and in more recent years the house in which Edmund Burke was born on Arran Quay has disappeared. If it is considered, after consultation at the highest level, that a house of this nature must be removed, I think there ought to be at least plaques — if it is not possible to preserve any part of the structure of the old house — on the buildings which replace them which often compare very badly, from the architectural aspect and from the point of view of the general interest of the onlooker, with those they have replaced.

A great many of these houses, of course, have fallen into very bad condition. It is probably not the duty of the Board of Works but I would like if the Parliamentary Secretary would see that they would keep a watching brief so that whatever we have we will be sure to hold on to and preserve. We have these old surviving houses on streets, courtyards and closed in areas like Whitefriar Street and they are apparently likely to be demolished. It seems a pity that, with the assistance of bodies like the Old Dublin Society and the Architectural Association which have shown their interest and which would naturally be expected to give a lead in these matters, something might not be done to preserve these very few remaining houses of that 18th century period. I have not in mind the large houses like Tyrone House or Powerscourt House, but the dwellinghouses in the streets around Whitefriar Street.

The British Association will be visiting Dublin next year. When they visited Dublin in 1908, there was a very valuable guide book published that is considered the best book published about the City of Dublin, in particular about 18th century Dublin. Undoubtedly, these professors, scientists and scholars from Britain will be keenly interested in seeing Dublin at its best. We ought to be in a position to show them historic buildings and monuments at their best. On the last occasion these gentlemen were here, they were specially interested in the natural history of Dublin and its surroundings. I have no doubt that the Board of Works will bear that in mind in connection with their parks and gardens.

It is rather a pity that it has not been possible to surround the new fountain in St. Stephen's Green with a garden. It is a very beautiful monument, but it might have been better to have it set back farther from the pathway and to have got a more sylvan setting for it.

A very important historical monument is Tailors' Hall in which the '98 men met and which is the only surviving building of the old Dublin Guilds. It has been suggested to me that the ideal thing to do with that building would be to have it taken over and maintained by the appropriate trade union or trade body that has taken the place of the Tailors' Guild in our modern society. These vocational guilds lasted up to comparatively recent times. The ideal thing would be to hand over Tailors' Hall to the body that would be considered the descendants of the original guild and to ask them to maintain it. I am sure that would be possible.

Then, there is the question of Kilmainham and as to whether steps are being taken to preserve the fabric and to obviate deterioration and damage as far as possible. The question also arises as to the possibility of making the place available to visitors. I know the difficulties in that connection. Sometimes, when people are admitted free to a place, they do not behave themselves. Very often it is children who are at fault. They can do damage to themselves or to the place. Within limits, it ought to be possible, particularly during the tourist season, to make Kilmainham available. If all the 1916 Collection and everything connected with modern Irish history were transferred to Kilmainham to make it a kind of museum of 19th and 20th Century Irish history, it might be a solution to the problem of overcrowding in the National Museum, about which I am sure we will hear more on the Estimate for the Department of Education.

I want to refer in particular to the question of the Royal Hospital. I understand that representations have been made to the Government with reference to the maintenance of the structure. It was built about 1680 to 1684 and must be one of the oldest buildings of importance. It would be a great pity not to convert it to some national purpose. In Wales and Sweden there are folk museums which are very popular, because they are so situated that visitors to them can be out of doors and can move about. There are fairly large areas of grass and gardens surrounding them.

On one occasion the question arose of converting the Royal Hospital to a folk museum — a question that has not yet been decided. I shall not suggest at this moment that a museum is the proper use for the Royal Hospital. At the moment, I am only raising the question as to the steps which are being taken to preserve the building, as to whether it may be made available to visitors, as to what are the conditions or whether it is open at all. If the building is considered structurally dangerous, is it the position that visitors cannot go there? Even if it is not considered safe, it is rather a pity that it could not be made more generally available to interested persons. There should be better facilities for those who are interested in going there. I trust that when the Parliamentary Secretary is replying, he will be able to give me some information about the Royal Hospital and about Kilmainham, in particular.

Mr. Blaney

In looking at the figures on Votes 8 and 9, the first thing that strikes one is the increase in regard to the wages, expenses and costs of running the office concerned. On the other hand there appears to be quite a decrease in regard to the amount of money this same office of Public Works propose expending during the year. Under Vote 8, this year salaries and wages are estimated to account for an increase of roughly £38,000. When we turn to Vote 9, which is to cover public works and buildings and the general proposed workings of this Department, we find a net decrease of £350,000 approximately. I can understand that the increase of £38,000 has been brought about by virtue of general increases in wages and salaries, but while that may be true what I cannot reconcile is that there would be less work for these officers to do, yet they are paid £38,000 more.

That, to my mind, is a trend in the wrong direction. In fairness I suppose it should be said that the vast amount of this decrease of £350,000 is accounted for in regard to new works, alterations and additions. While that may be quite all right — I am not too sure that it is, nor do I hold I am qualified to say it is — if there is a justification for this reduction in that sub-head then I feel that, rather than have brought in a reduction of £350,000 this year, we might well have utilised some of the money saved to be added under some other sub-heads which we all know require more money and require to be shoved along at a greater pace than we have seen in the past.

For instance, in regard to arterial drainage and construction works, we find that the allocation this year is £416,000, the same as it was last year. I feel sure that the Parliamentary Secretary and the members of his staff would like to see that figure increased; in other words they would like to see more work done under that sub-head. I feel that if savings are possible under one sub-head, rather than bring in a net saving the Parliamentary Secretary might have utilised this saving under other sub-heads to increase the amount of work under these sub-heads. The Parliamentary Secretary himself has been fond of saying that it might take 100 years to carry out works spoken of at the moment.

I come from one of the areas in which schemes of arterial drainage are very necessary and where, at the present rate of progress, the work will not be carried out, as the Parliamentary Secretary himself said when on this side of the House, within 100 years. Whether or not that is an exaggeration, I am in entire agreement with him that many of the schemes that are believed to be necessary and listed under arterial drainage will not be done in his lifetime or in mine. A number of these works relate to my own county and to my own constituency.

We have got no real major drainage scheme anywhere near the top of the priority list in Donegal. The best we have is about No. 26 on the list. The River Finn is our major catchment area. Other catchment areas in County Donegal are the Swillyburn, the Deale, the Lennon and the Swilly. The Swillyburn and the Deale are about to be commenced. The way in which the matter has been approached — the minor catchments taken first — is not a very favourable departure from proceedings in the past. The reason the Swillyburn and the Lennon were taken so promptly is not because of a change of heart in regard to their placings on the priority list or that smaller works might be considered in conjunction with the larger; it is due to the fact that the people concerned with the fisheries of the Foyle have had quite an influence in this matter. I am sorry they did not have influence in some of the other cases I have mentioned. I am afraid that the Swillyburn and the Deale cannot be taken as an indication to us in the other areas that the Swilly, Finn and Lennon catchment areas will be taken in hand in the near future.

I entirely disagree with the method employed in drawing up the priority list for arterial drainage. I think it is a completely wrong approach to take the total number of acres in a catchment area as the basis on which to give priority. The value of the land in a catchment area, its potential value to the people when drained, the method in which it will be utilised if properly drained, should have very much more to do with its place on the priority list than the total number of acres that area takes in. I have seen some very good work done under this scheme in other parts of the country. It was excellent work without any question, but the progress is much too slow. On the other hand, I have seen where drainage work has been carried out on land that never grew anything and that never will grow anything.

That is what I cannot reconcile in this matter and it is unfair to say that, because there are so many hundreds of thousands of acres in a certain area, it should be placed on top of the priority list. I have mentioned the Finn, the Swilly and the Lennon. In the Finn Valley in Donegal, for the benefit of those who may not be familiar with it, there is some of the finest land to be found anywhere in Ireland and some of the best tillage farmers. The land along that river is becoming more waterlogged every year and it is becoming progressively more hazardous to approach within a mile of its banks. If the crops are put down the chances are they will never be harvested. That has been getting progressively worse over the years and the farmers have had their fingers burned so often that many of them are not taking the chance of tilling those lands any more. These lands are being let out for grazing and even then farmers are taking the chance of having their cattle drowned.

It should be realised that great wealth to the community and to the national economy generally could be taken from these lands if they were properly drained. The saddest feature of all is that the sons of these farmers are no longer remaining on the farms, the greater proportion of which may lie in these flood areas. Their sons will move out and there will not be a tradition of tillage farming carried on in the future as in the past. If those people's sons are pushed out for those reasons, and if the land is not tilled for lack of drainage, even if the land is drained in the future in the Finn Valley it will not be utilised in the years to come as it could be utilised now, because the farmers will have departed from the tradition of tillage farming and the men who have carried on that tradition will no longer be available.

In the River Swilly Valley again, we have a very rich vein of land, one of the richest in the county, but apparently we are unfortunate in that, while we have a good deal of mountain and waste land, the best of our land is in the valleys and lying along the rivers. While this may be a normal geographical feature in all countries, it is particularly true in the case of Ireland, and in the River Swilly Valley, we have land second to none unused because of lack of drainage. In this case, conditions are worse than usual because the land which is not itself subject to flooding does not rise steeply away from the valley and the result is that land lying adjacent to the land which is subject to flooding cannot be drained. If one were to drain it, one would not get any grant from the Department of Agriculture, because the main outlet is not clear. Therefore, the land surrounding the flooded land is neglected and grants cannot be availed of, because the main outlet is not considered an outlet any more. From the point of view of land improvement and production, the River Swilly Valley has land that we really should do something about.

Going back but a few miles, we find ourselves in another stretch of excellent land along the River Lennon. This land is very much subject to flooding and thousands of acres of good land in the midst of very bad land are constantly being flooded, and the pity of it is that land is so scarce and good land so valuable in and around this valley that, no matter what may have happened in the past, farmers are forced to take a chance of cropping the lands along this river year after year, in the hope that, since it was flooded one year, it will not flood the following year. But invariably, year in and year out, they are caught out, if not in the early part of the season, then late in the season. One year after another, these farmers have suffered disastrous losses. Yet this river could be cleaned very easily.

I have spoken to the oldest residents and those with the longest memories and clearest heads around this place and I find that it is in the more recent past that this flooding has become really bad. I find the incidence of flooding has increased because of a number of obstructions built across the river by people who want to take water from it for their own purposes. Flooding has increased considerably since those obstructions were built across the Lennon. I want to say that not only are these obstructions something that could be removed—since the people who built them are no longer depending on water power, as the E.S.B. has now come into the area— but, in addition to relieving flooding and helping farmers in this region, fishing would be improved. Lough Fern, the lake from which the river flows, was one of the finest salmon and general fishing lakes in this country, and it is sad to-day to go along the river and see lying below the obstructions that have been built there salmon that have not sufficient water to go through. At the same time, the lake which had a famous name in the past is disappointing very many visitors because the fish are lying in dead waters behind these obstructions in the approaches to the lake. No fish worth talking about are being taken in the lake as a result.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to attend to this question, because I believe that the clearing of these artificial obstructions built in the past to suit people who apparently had the right to do anything they liked, would give a free flow in the river, which at best is a sluggish and lazy river. I believe that the silting of the river, which is now causing flooding, would no longer take place and that the winter flood-waters would then be sufficient to keep the silt cleared away. I do not want the Parliamentary Secretary to understand that it would be an easy matter to deal with the few people who have put these obstructions there. In another place, I have already told them what I think of them, and what should be done about them and they did not like it; but I feel that the matter is too important to too many people who are poor, hardworking people and whose livelihood is depending on this drainage, to allow these few selfish people to stand in the way.

There is now no necessity for these people to try to maintain the rights they established God knows how, in the past. Having given the Parliamentary Secretary that information, I would ask him to regard the matter as urgent and to realise that it may not be as easy as it sounds to deal with the people who have built these obstructions. I believe the Parliamentary Secretary is just the type of man who could move these people and their obstructions, and I say that in no spirit of criticism.

Having said that in regard to arterial drainage problems, I again appeal to those concerned with the drawing up of lists for works of this kind, and ask that reconsideration be given to the matter, so that the question of priority-placing for the future would depend much more on the value of the land, taking all the circumstances into account, and that these considerations should count more than the total acreage, as is apparently the case to-day. I do not think there is much point in draining land, or considering it essential to have it drained, if it is land of the type that, no matter what you do with it, can never be really good, productive tillage land. In the three valleys I have mentioned, the Finn, the Swilly and the Lennon valleys, we have without question land and soil equal to, if not better than, land anywhere in the country. That land is situated in districts which may be regarded as congested and it would be of immense value, if reclaimed, to the people in that part of the country. One acre of land in a congested area is worth at least ten acres in the heart of the central plain of Ireland — there is no question about that.

Mr. Donnellan

Good man.

Mr. Blaney

I suggest that, on that basis, some formula could be worked out whereby we could say that an acre of land in a congested district was equal to ten or 12 acres elsewhere as the case might be. I would leave the working out of the ratio to people who are better equipped for that job, but I do assert again, that one acre in a congested area is worth infinitely more to the nation and to the people than ten or 12, or possibly 15, in the heart of Ireland.

Having said that, I want to get on to a few other little items that I wish to take up with the Parliamentary Secretary on this Estimate. In regard to Portaleen pier, Glengad, County Donegal, I tabled a question to the Department of Agriculture yesterday in regard to that matter, and the reply I received should be of some interest to the Parliamentary Secretary, since he and his Department are the people who would carry out the work, if anything is to be done. In regard to this pier, we have found, on the part of the Office of Public Works and on the part of the Department of Fisheries, a reluctance on the part of their technically qualified people to agree that anything can be done.

Possibly it is untrue to say that they have said nothing could be done, but the scheme that was proposed as the only one feasible and that would be guaranteed to do the job well was estimated at a price which was so prohibitive that there was no question of the matter being taken up. We might as well have been told: "We will not do it at all." A figure of £450,000-odd — almost half a million — was mentioned some couple of years ago, when we were trying to get this job done. I understand from what I have heard that the engineers attached to the Office of Public Works were the people then responsible for drawing up that estimate. At that time, our own engineer felt that something on a smaller scale and just as effective might be done. On the other hand, of course, no engineer was going to be so foolish as to say that he would guarantee any job as a foolproof job.

This pier and this place, Glengad, is on the extreme northern tip of the county. There is no doubt whatever but that it is lashed by some very violent storms and very heavy seas. We have had occasion to know just how heavy because in the past few years we have lost there six large fishing boats on one occasion, and on all the occasions put together over the past ten years, the people of this small fishing village have had a loss of over 30 fishing craft. That is a most serious loss to those people and to the country generally. Those people are situated on the northern tip of our county and are, as a result of that, nearer to some of the best fishing grounds on the north-eastern coast than any other fishermen. The result might well be that they could bring in their fish in better condition, bring in more of them and bring them in sooner, but the big snag is that they have nowhere to keep their boats. We have been fighting this thing for years.

If we could get an engineer who would forget for a moment that he has nothing to gain by giving us a scheme for Glengad and forget for a moment that he might lose something of his prestige, if it did not turn out as he thought — if we could get that approach in this matter, I believe we could get a scheme under way which would have a very good chance of being a success. I do not blame the engineers concerned. If this is a difficult job and an engineer is in a secure, permanent position, what incentive is there under the present system for that engineer to stake any or all of his reputation on doing a very difficult job in some out-of-the-way place like Glengad, which, when completed, might not turn out to be a satisfactory job? What incentive has he to take the chance that it could be said of him in five years' time: "There will be no promotion for you, my boy; you did not do a good job in Glengad"?

That, apparently, is how we are fixed at the moment. I am not blaming the engineers. They are playing safe, for the reason that there is no gain or no incentive to them, if they do a good job in difficult circumstances, and they might have quite a lot to lose, if they did not do a good job. Such is the set-up in our public positions to-day that the man who might have the initiative or incentive to go ahead and do this job, and take the chance which, in my opinion, is well worth taking and save one of the few fishing communities left in the country to-day, will not take this step. I believe that we should do something in that regard, and that we should give some inducement to our engineers to use their training, initiative and energy towards giving us an answer to problems like this, and if the job does not turn out 100 per cent. satisfactory in a difficult case like that, then, rather than holding it against them, they should be given some recompense for taking on the job at all.

We can never get anywhere in regard to this matter, until we have got some approach that is not clouded over at all times by the chance that, if the job should not be done well, that engineer takes all the responsibility for planning it and may find himself debarred from promotion and getting a better job in the years to come.

I would ask that the Office of Public Works and the Parliamentary Secretary concerned should seriously go into this matter and give these people in Glengad an opportunity to earn their livelihood, keep their families at home and give to the Irish market and Irish consumer a fairly good supply of some of the best fish to be found in any part of the world. They are there to be taken. The fishermen are there, convenient to the fishing grounds, but they have no harbour or shelter for their boats; and nobody is going to do anything about it, because we are bogged down in the red tape of Civil Service bureaucracy, or whatever you like to call it, and out of that we cannot get.

If we had all the red tape and all the files, all the paper and all the notes written about this matter since it first commenced, I believe that, with our present process of lamination, we could, out of all the paper that has been used in passing from Department to Department over the years, erect at Glengad a sufficient shelter to protect our boats from any future storms. I think it is time that something was done in this matter, instead of going around looking for safe jobs to be done in the safest possible way, at the greatest possible expense, and in the longest possible time. That seems to be the system and the sooner it stops the better.

In regard to Greencastle Harbour, a reply was given here to a question of mine that no representations were made to the Office of Public Works in regard to having repairs carried out to that pier; and the reply went on to point out that, if any such repairs should arise, they were the responsibility of the local authority, the Donegal County Council. As far as I know, the actual repairs referred to — possibly it is a misnomer to say "repairs"—are not really repairs, but dredging. That dredging is not being done and has not been done, despite the fact that a new and costly pier was erected there not long ago. That brings me to the sting in the tail of this answer that, if any repairs are required to-day, they are the responsibility of Donegal County Council. If there should be any repairs arising so soon in regard to Greencastle Pier, which has only been completed in the past year or so, surely the responsibility should not be laid at the door of Donegal County Council, but at the door of the people responsible for doing the job? If it is found defective within 12 months, it cannot be said to be a good job.

If that should happen, the people concerned should not come to the Donegal County Council and say: "We did a bad job. It is not working out well. You people have taken responsibility to maintain it and you must maintain it." I believe there is such a thing in many contracts as a guarantee. Even in our own public buildings in Donegal, if any defect shows itself in a house within six months of that house being taken over as a finished job, the contractor must come back and remedy the defect at his own expense.

In the same way, even though this pier may have been passed on for maintenance to our county council, if it proves now to be defective, somebody else should remedy the defects, rather than pass the buck to the county council, which has enough to look after at the moment, without finding new works, going bad in such a short time, pushed on to it as well.

Apparently, what is really needed is dredging. Where is the use in erecting a new pier, if, through lack of dredging, that pier cannot be utilised? Dredging is required, and, as far as I understand, that is what our local development committee have been agitating for and, to my mind, dredging would constitute a major repair. Without dredging, this pier might as well have been erected in some of the fields surrounding Greencastle. If one cannot get to the pier, there is not much use in just standing by and looking at it. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to get this dredger now, while the weather is good and the sea calm, have it taken down to Greencastle, so that some of the sand and the silt which has collected around this new pier can be removed. Put us in the position that some use can be made of the pier, the use we hoped to make of it when the pier was built.

In relation to schools, I have heard quite a bit this morning and on other occasions about the position. I have heard the Parliamentary Secretary extricating himself from any entanglement in the allegation that his office is responsible for any hold-up, so far as the erection of schools is concerned. I know the Office of Public Works have their own difficulties, inasmuch as they act as agents for other Departments and, if other Departments want to play ducks and drakes with the people, it is quite easy for them to pass the buck to the Office of Public Works and write saying that they have cleared the matter in regard to their Departments, that it is now with the Office of Public Works, and they are merely waiting to hear from that office.

During the past year or two, I have been interested in the proposed school at Milford. It is on the records of this House that for the past eight months the Office of Public Works, according to the Minister for Education, have been holding up this school. We can get nowhere with the laying of the contract until the Office of Public Works clears it. In reply to a parliamentary question here six months ago, I was told that it would be six months before this school would be reached on the priority list. Apparently, there is a bottleneck in the Office of Public Works and there is a queue awaiting the "O.K." from the Office of Public Works. Six months ago, the Minister for Education told me the school would not be reached for six months, that he had cleared it and his Department were not holding it up. The local manager is not holding it up. The Department of Education is not holding it up.

A week ago I had another question down and, though six months have passed, the Minister for Education is in the same position still; he does not even know when work is likely to start and he pinpoints unquestionably the Office of Public Works as the people responsible for the delay. I am not saying that is so, but, according to the records of this House, the Minister for Education in this instance, leaving aside all other instances, pinpoints the Office of Public Works as the people who are holding up — he did not say purposely — this school. He said they are responsible for the hold-up in this instance, a hold-up of over eight months.

A week ago, he did not even know, and I take it he inquired from the Office of Public Works, if they had prepared the plans for that school and given their blessing to it. When that is the recorded position in relation to this school surely it is rather ridiculous of the Parliamentary Secretary or anybody else on behalf of the Office of Public Works, to stand up here and say that he is not responsible for any delays. If they are not responsible, then they should get on to the Department of Education and clear the air. All I am interested in is finding out where the delay is. I want to tie it down. I believe at the moment it is in the Office of Public Works. If, on the other hand, it is really in the Department of Education, I would like to know that. It is only fair to the Office of Public Works that, if that is the case, the position should be clarified in their own interests.

But there are other buildings which have been discussed here from time to time. There is the new post office at Letterkenny and the new telephone exchange, at an estimated cost of over £29,000. Away back in 1950, it was stated in this House that this building was about to be commenced, that it was almost ready to go ahead and the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs gave a definite and decisive answer, I think that at the end of 1950, the building of this much-needed post office in Letterkenny would commence. Everything was ready to go ahead in the following six to eight months.

The Government changed. The Minister changed and six or eight months after I had got that assurance, I asked the then Minister when building would commence. He said he did not know. I asked him was the position, as outlined by his predecessor in 1950, not a fact? I asked him were the plans not ready and everything there for him to go ahead. He said there was absolutely nothing of the sort. We find now, in 1956, that this building has been listed in the appendix we were given here prior to this debate, and the total cost is reckoned to be somewhere around £29,000, of which £2,000 has been provided for 1956-57.

I may be ignorant of the workings of these things, but it does appear to me that, if a building is estimated to cost £29,000 odd, and only £2,000 is provided in the current financial year, we can have very little hope that anything will be done during 1956-57, and we cannot look forward in the near future to seeing a suitable building to house a post office and telephone exchange rising in the town of Letterkenny despite the fact that a previous Coalition Minister for Posts and Telegraphs told us as far back as 1950, that everything was ready to go ahead and work would commence in six to eight months.

What will be done in regard to this building in this year? What does this £2,000 represent? Does it represent a token Vote, merely for the purpose of keeping it alive and keeping some people satisfied that the post office has not been forgotten? Is it, on the other hand, a genuine attempt to bring into this House some provision which will give us some sort of start in the current financial year, even though that start may not be made until next February or the beginning of next March? I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary exactly what sort of advice he has got from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in regard to this building.

The present building is deplorably inadequate. It is a scandal to any principal town in any county. That is well known not only to the public, but, more so, to the staff who have to work in the back rooms of the present inadequate building, a building which would not be tolerated as a dwelling house for any family, never mind the 20 or 40 officials who are crammed into the back rooms there and up in the attics, trying to carry on the business of an ever-expanding postal service. Something should be done, and done quickly.

All I ask is that the Parliamentary Secretary will let me know, if he can, what the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has given him to understand in regard to this matter. Let us know whether they intend to go ahead with that building this year, or is this just a sop to keep us quiet in Letterkenny and to keep us from agitating for this building, which is so urgently required? That is all I want. The Parliamentary Secretary and the Office of Public Works are not to blame. They are merely acting, as I said, at the outset, as agents for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary then to clear himself in regard to this matter, and if this is being done because of any orders, or brief, or directions which he has from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, then he should tell us so, and we can get right down to that Department and see if they are to blame for the production of this £2,000 for a job which is estimated to cost £29,000, which should have been done years ago and which is obviously not going to be done within the next 12 months.

The same can be said in the matter of Garda barracks and there are two cases which I propose to instance where it is obvious that the present buildings are very bad. I refer to Carrigart and Kilmacrennan. In the case of Carrigart, the position has been very bad for a considerable time and still nothing is being done about it this year. The total estimated cost of rebuilding is £6,500 and a figure of £1,000 is given as the estimated expenditure in the current financial year. Like the post office I have just mentioned, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to try to clarify the position in regard to Carrigart barracks. The sum of £1,000 which is provided cannot mean that a lot of work will be done this year.

In regard to Kilmacrennan, the position seems to be a bit more hopeful. There, the estimated total cost is £6,500 and for this year a sum of £3,500 is being provided. That looks as if the Board of Works means business there and emphasises in the other two cases that business is not meant this year.

I know that Vote 10 is not being taken together with Votes 8 and 9 and so many of the remarks which I wish to address to the Parliamentary Secretary concerning the Office of Public Works will have to be left over until we reach Vote 10, which, I understand, may be taken immediately after this Vote is finished. I wish, therefore, to conclude by saying again, as I said at the start, that it is somewhat amazing to me to see that, while the charges for salaries and incidental expenses have been increased by £35,000, at the same time, the amount of money to be expended on these buildings is being reduced by approximately £350,000 for the current year. It does appear to me that we are going to pay the same money, perhaps to the same number of people, more or less, and, at the same time, reduce the amount of work those people will be doing to the extent of £350,000. That means that much less work will be done at the same cost in salaries and expenses this year. I should like an explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary as to why that is so.

Mr. O'Leary

Looking over this list of items, I regret to see that, in regard to County Wexford, there is only one item on which money is to be expended this year. That is in regard to the Commodore Barry memorial at Wexford, for which a sum of £1,800 is included in the Estimate. I am glad to see the provision of that money, but it would appear that only for the fact that the American people were good enough to honour this man, who was the founder of the American Navy, the Board of Works would not be spending a "bob" on works in my county.

We have in my constituency, as is well known, the best farmers in the 32 Counties. In the area outside Enniscorthy, the River Sow runs through thousands of acres of land and deputations have gone to the county council from the farmers in the area who want to have their land drained under the land project scheme and they have been told that it cannot be done because the River Sow is the responsibility of the Board of Works. This river was attended to when the State was formed, but, since that time, nothing has been done to it with the exception of the occasional time when a county council worker went out and did some trimming. That is all that is being done and land belonging to the farmers is constantly being flooded. According to this Estimate, there does not appear to be any hope that the farmers in the county wishing to have their lands drained will get it done.

We find nothing is being done for the farmers in the County Wexford area and, at the same time, we see that most of the money provided in this Estimate is to be spent on works in Dublin. There is an item of £20,000 which is to be spent on improvements and furniture for Áras an Uachtaráin. Nowdays the farmers are being asked to produce more and they are trying to do so, and surely it would be better to spend that £20,000 on the drainage and improvement of the farmers' land than on one house in the City of Dublin.

In Leinster House, a sum of £4,000 is to be spent on the reconstruction of the lobbies in 1956-57, and, reading further down the list, we find that a sum of £10,000 is being provided for a central engineering works and stores for the Office of Public Works. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the people of the country are saying that the Government is not spending money in a proper way, or does the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister have any say in regard to these Estimates which are being produced and handed to the members of Dáil Eireann coming from rural Ireland, showing that all the moneys under the different headings are to be spent exclusively in the city?

I have asked the Parliamentary Secretary, the Department of Social Welfare, and the Department of Justice on a few occasions to take over a castle which is lying idle in Enniscorthy. It is a very famous castle in good repair, with 14 rooms with central heating. It is lying there to-day and I believe that it could be used to accommodate civil servants. If the civil servants were put in there, it would mean the saving of a lot of this money which is now being spent on the extension, improvement and renovation of buildings in the city.

Mr. P. Brennan

Do you mean to lock them up there?

Mr. O'Leary

They could do a lot of useful work in it. It is a famous castle and it is in very good condition.

Mr. Carter

Has it a ghost?

Mr. O'Leary

There may be a ghost in the Deputy's castle, but I do not believe there is any in this one. We have a great deal of talk on this Estimate year after year and we still have that atmosphere about the Estimate to-day. If the Department took over this castle in Enniscorthy, it would be a move towards the decentralisation of Government Departments, of which we have heard so much in the past. Where good sound buildings exist in rural Ireland, it would be an advantage to the ratepayers if they were taken over by the Government. Private individuals cannot purchase some of these buildings and the only remedy is for the Government or the county council to step in and come to the aid of the ratepayers in such cases.

Drainage should be the main object of the Parliamentary Secretary and his Department. On several occasions, farmers from my own area have come to me about this very important matter. When I raised the question with the county council they pointed out that it is the responsibility of the Board of Works. The best of land suitable for tillage is flooded there every winter because nothing is being done — and nothing has been done since the days of the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. Only a few shillings have been spent here and there since. Surely, after all the years, something could be done. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to have a survey carried out on the River Sow in County Wexford. If he drains this river, he will do a good day's work for the farming community there who have been appealing time and time again to the county council about this matter. They can get nothing done because the county council say that it is not their responsibility but the responsibility of the Board of Works.

I am not at all satisfied with the way this money is divided and I am sure other Deputies feel likewise. Just glance down the list and see where most of the money is to be spent. Most of it will be spent in or around Dublin City. For instance, a sum of £38,000 is to be spent on a Garden of Remembrance in the Rotunda Gardens. That is a big item. I am sure that that sum of money would do a good job in any constituency where there is a river causing flooding.

Mr. Donnellan

£38,000?

Mr. O'Leary

£38,000. Just look at No. 21 (2) — Abbotstown Farm: foundation stock farmyard. The total estimated cost is not yet known. The total estimated expenditure to the 31st March, 1956, was £1,000 and the provision for 1956-57 is £13,500. No. 26 (2) refers to an artificial insemination centre at Grange Stud and Dairy Farm. The total estimated cost is £25,000. The provision for 1956-57 is £1,000. That money could be devoted, with greater benefit to the nation, to other projects. Surely there is more important work than that? Why, if it is continued, it will not be necessary to have bull sales here in Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of bull sales does not arise on this Vote.

Mr. O'Leary

There is a provision here for an artificial insemination centre at Grange Stud and Dairy Farm. In my view, it is not right that so much money should be spent on that work when we hear so much talk about depression and about money for the farming community. I want to see drainage schemes which will give good employment. the farmers want the rivers to be drained by the Office of Public Works, who are in charge of this matter. Until that is done, the work on the land project will not be satisfactory. That is the first thing to be done because if the land project is to be a success you must first drain the rivers.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will have a survey carried out immediately of the River Sow so that work can commence without delay and so that this coming winter the farmers will not be obliged to take their cattle up to the hills lest they should be swamped by the floods. I want that assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary when he is replying.

Mr. A. Barry

My contribution will be very brief. I thank God I do not come from a district where the rivers run slowly. I support the plea that has been made in respect of the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham. In this building we have something that is unique in Europe. It is an architectural gem. Its preservation and maintenance are of the utmost aesthetic value. It should not be necessary for me to stress how important this building is from the point of view of tourism. It is an architectural show-piece and it should be kept by us in the best possible condition and handed on to posterity. There is a grave danger that we may lose something here which money cannot buy. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary's Department will at least provide maintenance and give this building the attention that is essential before irremediable harm is done.

Mr. O'Hara

It is customary on this debate to discuss arterial drainage. Usually, that is the main topic of discussion on this Estimate. I propose to keep mainly to arterial drainage and matters concerned with it.

A lot of useful work has been done down through the years by the Board of Works on drainage, not in my own immediate neighbourhood but in other parts of the country. I have heard Deputies express that view here and I have seen some of the good work myself. The principal complaint seems to be that the work is not progressing as quickly as it might. My view is that the activities of the Board of Works in this connection could be speedier. The position in the country is that the men engaged on arterial drainage receive rates of pay which are not comparable with the rates payable elsewhere for similar work. That being so, you will be able to attract — in the main, in any case — only the type of person who is not free to go across to England or other countries to engage in this work, perhaps due to family circumstances. I doubt very much if we have the very best men engaged on this work. I feel that the best of our people have left and gone across the water to engage in such work in England where they receive higher rates of pay. It is regrettable that that should be so but I am convinced that, indeed, it is the position.

Drainage is very important and the pay of the workmen, gangers, supervisors, engineers, and so forth, should at least be equal to the pay applicable for the same type of work across the water. I should like to advocate a bonus system for these men. If a man will get £5 or £10 a week, whether he works slowly or quickly, it is easy to understand that he has not the incentive to work hard and to get the job done quickly. It is important and essential that this work be carried out more expeditiously.

As things are, I do not think there is any such thing as a bonus scheme. There is no recognition, except progress by promotion, for people who work hard. You will find the type of person who, regardless of whether he is getting a bonus or not, by his nature, will work hard. Instead of such a person getting recognition by way of bonus, we often find that he is being laughed at on the job. That has the effect of slowing down progress in this matter of arterial drainage. I think the present Parliamentary Secretary, who is quite enthusiastic about having arterial drainage work done, as are the members of his staff in Dublin, as far as I know, should try to do something about establishing a bonus scheme. If it is possible to have such a scheme in operation in England, surely it is possible to have it in operation here. I do know that it gives beneficial results and it is well worth considering.

I know well that the Parliamentary Secretary is expecting me to refer to the problem of the Moy drainage. I am deeply interested in that problem and I know the Parliamentary Secretary himself is deeply interested in it, and I know that the survey work has been completed. It took a long time to get that survey work completed. The Parliamentary Secretary increased the number of engineers and the survey staff on the work, and so the survey is now complete. Still, no start has been made on the drainage of the River Moy, and I could not agree more with Deputy Blaney when he stated that special consideration should be given to the congested areas and to the West of Ireland as a whole, where an acre of land is of so much importance.

I know many people who have emigrated from the Moy Valley to Kildare, Meath or other countries, and the main reason they did so was that their places at home were flooded. Everybody appreciates that it is a very expensive thing to migrate a family. It is a pity that this should have to be done, because it means the breaking up of community life, with all its sad consequences, and its loss to schools and towns, and so forth. It can be a serious matter from the national point of view.

I submit that special consideration should be given to all congested areas where the cancer of emigration is becoming more and more serious. A new Department is to be set up for the Gaeltacht, and there are the Undeveloped Areas Act and the efforts to provide factories in these districts, but that situation of emigration still exists. In Mayo, we have got nothing from arterial drainage so far, and I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary to try, in the present year, to start work on that river. As I have already said, I am aware that he appreciates the problem. I am aware that he has interested himself in a big way in this whole question of the Moy drainage. People have lost heart in my part of the country because they were promised, from one election to another, that this work would be undertaken and now they will have to see the machines on the spot, and the work in progress, before they are convinced that any Government is serious about it.

A special case can be made for such rivers. The holdings along them are small and uneconomic, and, in relation to the amount of land that would be reclaimed, colossal sums would be paid in wages. Our working people would stand to benefit and much more money would be put in circulation. The problem of the balance of payments could soon be cleared up and there is no quicker way to clear it up than by making greater progress in the field of arterial drainage. It is no wonder that we have a balance of payments problem when we allow thousands of acres of our best land to remain waterlogged. As Deputy O'Leary pointed out, the work of the Department of Agriculture and the land reclamation section is being impeded.

We have now reached a situation in my county where work is almost held up. Some of the contractors have gone into County Sligo to try to get work there. They have committed themselves to the purchase of machinery and to the employment of men who are now skilled in this work, and it is skilled work. They are reluctant to let these men go. It would be a sad thing if they had to let them go, when they have gained so much experience. This work, in my area, is actually held up and is being impeded as a result of the condition of the River Moy.

I am afraid that we have a lot of leeway to make up in the matter of getting greater output from our machinery. We have some of the finest machinery in the world engaged on this work and, while I have the greatest respect for Deputy Beegan, no man was more enthusiastic than the present Parliamentary Secretary in the matter of providing the most modern and up-to-date machinery for excavation work. However, I doubt very much if it is giving us the return it should be giving, and that is causing serious delay. In the work on the Corrib I have seen two, or three, or four machines held up, perhaps for the want of spare parts. It is bad enough when a working man is not pulling his weight, but it is not such a serious matter as when machinery, costing thousands of pounds, is held up.

The work is being delayed as a result of such machinery being held up. I hate to have to refer to this but only this very morning I was speaking to a man who is a native of County Sligo. He was very critical in regard to what he saw going on on the Corrib in regard to the delay through machinery being held up. That is a matter that should be inquired into to see what is the cause of it and when the trouble is pin-pointed some action should be the staff falling down on the job there is only one way of dealing with them and that is to dismiss them.

We know that even at the present taken. If there are some members of time such valuable and useful machinery is being held up. Therefore, I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary who, incidentally, does not live too far from where some of these things are happening, to take the necessary steps to see that these machines are kept going day and night if necessary, even if it means having a night shift, in order to get the rivers done. I feel I have a special case to make in respect of the River Moy. I do not begrudge to the other parts of the country, Donegal or elsewhere, the benefits of arterial drainage.

It is a pity in the national interest that any of these works would be delayed. I am sure that what is true of my own area in the matter of reclamation work held up is also true in regard to other parts of the country. It should be appreciated that considerable sums of public money were spent on local authority works drainage. A lot of the money was spent very usefully but, unfortunately, a lot was spent badly. The truth, however, is that in opening minor drains, small streams, on to the main arteries, you are creating problems and difficulties. It is generally appreciated that, prior to the Local Authorities (Works) Act, some of these rivers did not cause such a serious problem from the point of view of flooding as they have since. It is quite natural that when you drain extra water on to rivers that are already overloaded with water you are going to increase further the flooding. It is for that reason I feel it is necessary, where a lot of local authority drainage work is being carried out, to undertake the arterial drainage work at as early a date as possible.

Some Deputies referred to fishing and repairs to piers. I feel there is not much co-operation between the local authorities, the engineers of local authorities and the Office of Public Works in this matter. When one tries to get some repairs carried out to piers and slips, the Office of Public Works almost invariably tell you that that is a matter for the county council. When you see the county council engineer about the matter, at least in our county, he will tell you it is a matter for the Office of Public Works. You are pushed from Billy to Jack and do not know where you stand.

It is a serious matter that the fishing industry should be hampered by such red tape. Evidently Deputy Blaney has had a similar experience since he expressed some views on the matter. It seems to me that this complaint is pretty widespread. Therefore, I would ask the present Parliamentary Secretary to try to bring about better relations between the various county councils in the Republic and the Office of Public Works and let us know once and for all who is responsible for the work and who is going to undertake it. The fishing industry can be developed. It could be built up to almost equal importance with agriculture, but while we have this state of affairs existing it is hard to expect the industry to thrive. Indeed, it is hard to expect the people to go out fishing, having regard to all the hazards and risks involved.

With regard to school buildings and Garda barracks, when you go round the country at the present time you can see scores and scores of new buildings erected in recent years and you can see the repair works that have been carried out in a very creditable manner. The work reflects great credit on the Board of Works. It is really a pleasure to see the great progress made. If it were possible to get rid of some of the red tape, I believe we could make greater progress in this field as well. We must be fair to those responsible for doing this work. We must give credit to the staff in the Board of Works for having improved the school buildings in many parts of the country. It is important work. Some school children have to walk a mile or two to school and in many cases in the rural areas they arrive at school buildings that are damp and cold and not properly heated. That is very bad from the point of view of the health of the children.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. O'Hara

I shall pass from that subject then but a lot of good work has been undertaken by the Board of Works in the matter of school buildings and I want to compliment them on the work they have done.

There is also the question of repair work to Garda barracks. I often thought that, for the expenditure of small sums on paint or on the replacement of a pane of glass in the windows, a great improvement could be brought about in many of our Garda barracks. I am not sure if the Board of Works have permanent painters on the road, but I see no difficulty in the way of providing a van with a couple of painters and permitting them to go around the country from one Garda station to another periodically and endeavour to have such painting work carried out. After all, the Garda stations are places to which many people call to make inquiries in relation to roads and places of interest. I think these buildings should be kept in better condition, particularly when that could be achieved by a small expenditure.

I wish to conclude on the note on which I started — the all-important question of arterial drainage. We in Ireland are fortunate in many ways. We are fortunate in that our climate is reasonably mild and our rivers are not unmanageable. We have not the problems the Dutch people have. We have not the problems of trying to keep back tides except, perhaps, in very few places, where a terrible lot of damage is not done. We, therefore, should bend our energies—and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to bend his—towards getting an increased output and getting the work through much more quickly than heretofore. As Deputy Blaney said, I think the present Parliamentary Secretary is the right man for the job. I would ask him to get behind those few I referred to who are holding up this work and prod them along. He should let them see that, if they are trying to cod him or his officials, they will not get away with it. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to keep these matters in mind and remember that these are serious problems. Particularly is that the case in Mayo in connection with the flooding of the River Moy.

Mr. Corry

I have only a few matters to refer to on this Vote. The first is a complaint and it is practically the same as that made by Deputy O'Hara, that is, the absolute need for some co-operation between the Department of Local Government, the Board of Works and the local authorities. I put down two questions in connection with that this week to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Minister for Local mentary Secretary was kind enough to send me a certain amount of correspondence in the matter, but unfortunately the Board of Works do not seem to have grasped even the fringes of what we want to see them about. Government, respectively. The Parlia-

We requested that an official of the office be sent to a roads meeting of the Cork County Council to thrash out this matter, together with an official of the Local Government Department. There is no doubt that the rural improvements scheme has helped out enormously, as far as farmers' own roads are concerned, but there are other problems in connection with that, that is in regard to the places where the avenues into these people's land are longer and where larger amounts of money have to be put up by the farmers concerned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter would arise on the next Vote, No. 10, Employment and Emergency Schemes, but it does not arise on the Vote for the Office of Public Works.

Mr. Corry

As far as that is concerned, I have nothing to say, except that I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary, and that comes under Vote 10 also.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

My main reason for intervening in this debate is to deal with the Parliamentary Secretary's responsibility for the improvement and development of harbours and piers. Representing a constituency which has a big mileage of coastal area, we are generally dissatisfied with the Board of Works. Our main grievance is that, if any public representatives or any public body seek to have a harbour or pier improved for the benefit of farmers, fishermen and other people, utilising such harbour or pier, it takes a number of years before anything is done about it. We have letters going up from, say, the county council to the Department, interviews by T.D.s and so on, and usually it is about four or five years before any work of a practical nature is commenced. That is completely out of order. I regard harbours and piers as very important work, but so far as this Estimate, as presented to us this year, is concerned, there is a very little money for such work in it.

It is true that the total cost of major fishery harbour surveys has not yet been estimated according to this document presented to us. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is he going to allow that state of affairs to continue? Is he going to allow the people in his Department and whoever is responsible to delay unjustifiably in regard to improvement works in particular districts? In a constituency like West Cork, where fishing, the landing of sand for manurial purposes, and so on, is of such great importance to the people, we are pressing and have been pressing, unfortunately with little avail, over a number of years to get proper harbours and piers down there. These are the only moneys we can expect to get out of this Vote.

I am endeavouring to get some information, if the Parliamentary Secretary will give it, as to the causes of this delay. The delay is so remarkable that if a person approached you to get a harbour or pier improved or a landing place on the islands around West Cork coast, you would be loath to take the matter in hands at all, knowing the type the people in the Board of Works are and knowing that every possible hindrance will be placed in your way and that you will be awaiting this scheme, even after it is recommended as a justifiable one, for four or five years.

The Parliamentary Secretary must bear in mind that there is a number of such harbours and piers along the coastal areas of this country, particularly in the South and West and the people there are trying to press ahead as quickly as possible, and in a reasonable way, improvements to these harbours and piers. The Parliamentary Secretary knows very well, or can ascertain in his office, that, so far as West Cork, with well over 120 miles of coastal area, is concerned, they are getting very little money over the past number of years for these works.

That is the main reason why I rise to contribute to this debate. It may be said it is a small matter, but private representations to the Parliamentary Secretary and to his officers have met with little result. You are always told that the matter is under active consideration. The way you can define the term "active consideration", as implied by the Board of Works, is that if you inquire about the same project again in 12 months, it is still under active consideration. That is an out-of-the-way manner in which to do public business.

A great percentage of time in this debate was taken up on this question of arterial drainage, so far as it relates to the West of Ireland. Apparently, arterial drainage works seem to be confined to the West. Whether that is due to the fact that the present Parliamentary Secretary and the former Parliamentary Secretary are from the West of Ireland, I do not know. We have an annual wail made here by a number of Deputies about the Moy, the Suck and the Corrib. These representations may be necessary in regard to catchment areas, but there is need for arterial drainage in other parts of the country. In West Cork, we endeavoured to get drainage work carried out under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, but were informed by the engineering advisers that the work was of such a nature as to be outside the scope of the Act and that the only way in which it could be carried out was through arterial drainage. There is little use in talking to the Board of Works about arterial drainage for West Cork. They are too much perturbed about the question of arterial drainage in the areas represented by the Parliamentary Secretaries in both Governments and their particular followers. That is how I find the position.

I want to refer to two other items, one of which has been referred to by almost every Deputy who contributed to the debate, that is, the question of the improvement of school buildings. There is a number of buildings which are, to put it mildly, disgraceful. The Board of Works should be obliged to inspect these buildings periodically, in conjunction with the managers, and to compel the managers, if they are reluctant, to carry out essential improvements. It is a scandalous state of affairs that there are buildings that have not been painted in the last 100 years situated on the main roads.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not the responsibility of the Parliamentary Secretary. The Department deals only with works that have been allocated to the Department.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am relating it to this Vote in this way, that school managers will tell you that, having got approval for the work from the Department of Education, it is very difficult to get the Board of Works to carry out the work. The carrying out of Board work is the responsibility of the Board of Works. I have received complaints from a number of managers saying that the fault is not theirs that the buildings are not being improved and that the work which they consider necessary has not been carried out, that it is very difficult to get the Board of Works to move in this matter.

The first item on the list in the Estimate is Árus an Uachtaráin. We should all like to see that building maintained in a most up-to-date manner, it being the residence of the President, but it is time that improvement works and furnishing were completed. Over the past number of years, we have been expending thousands of pounds on that building. It was assumed last year that the work would be completed by 31st March, 1956. Now, there is another legacy for the year 1956-57. There seems to be plenty of money when it is a question of this residence in the Phoenix Park, but when a Deputy from a coastal area seeks a few hundred pounds for the improvement of a pier or harbour money cannot be found. Having regard to the size and general economy of the country, I consider that too much money has been expended on Árus an Uachtaráin.

There is a total estimated cost for improvements and furnishing of £39,000. It would be very enlightening if the Parliamentary Secretary would give the figures that have been expended on this building over the past number of years. It is only right that Deputies from rural areas that are hard hit economically should protest vigorously against the expenditure of such large sums of money on one building in the City of Dublin. I single out that building for particular reference. I do so with no disrespect to its occupant. As Irishmen, we all respect whoever is President for the time being. We are not finding fault with him in any way, but we are finding fault with the people who are responsible for throwing away that money on one building in the City of Dublin. It is time that the people responsible for compiling the Estimate saw to it that there is an end to this matter of improvement and furnishing of Árus an Uachtaráin.

Mr. Glynn

Despite Deputy Murphy's remarks, I intend to say a few words on the subject of arterial drainage. I do not think Deputy Murphy is quite correct in talking about the annual wail from the West of Ireland. I do not think that Deputy Murphy can have very serious problems in this regard in his own constituency because, if he had the problem that exists in the West, there would be more than an annual wail from him.

There is very good work being done under the grants which the various local authorities are getting under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, but this method of dealing with minor drainage problems is really only picking at the matter. It is absolutely essential, if the full benefits of the grants which local authorities are receiving under the Act are to be obtained, that the problem should be dealt with differently. It may be that there are so many problems of this nature that the Office of Public Works cannot cope with them all at once. I know their hands are full. Nevertheless, we are only picking at the problem with these grants under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

There is one minor catchment area which I have in mind and which I should like to mention to-day, that is, the catchment area of the Killimor river. As far as I know, representation has been made concerning the drainage of the Killimor river for many years. We all agree that it is Government policy to increase the productivity of the land. It is possibly not an exaggeration to say that, within that area, there would be, in all, approximately 100,000 or more acres benefiting from a minor scheme. This is not a task which would take anything like the time to develop that a major arterial drainage scheme would take, such as the Corrib and other major schemes which will take years. The drainage of the Killimor river would be a comparatively small job and the effect would be tremendous within a short period of time.

I would specially ask the Parliamentary Secretary, as far as possible, to give priority to minor catchment schemes of this nature, for the simple reason that the survey in the first instance will be a small task in comparison with surveys of major schemes and secondly, the execution of the work would take a short time, in comparison with the execution of the work on the major schemes. As far as I know, the execution of the work on the Killimor river would not be dependent on the prior execution of a major scheme and, for that reason, it can be done as an entirely isolated scheme, divorced from any major scheme. I have already made representations to have this work done under the land reclamation and the land rehabilitation schemes, but it is held up and cannot be done until the drainage of the river has first been carried out. It affects a large number of families and a large area of land. Although it is only a minor scheme the benefits to be derived from it would be great. It is too big to be considered under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Deputy M.P. Murphy suggested that most of the talk on this Estimate every year was about schemes of drainage in the West of Ireland. I do not think anything could be further from the truth. If Deputy Murphy had to face some of the problems which face us in the West of Ireland, I feel sure he would not be slow to talk about them. I am glad to say that the Parliamentary Secretary is doing great work in the West and, although I feel sure it has occurred to him already, I should like to ask him to put some of his men and machinery, in so far as he can spare them, on a minor scheme on this river. I have said before, and I repeat it only by way of emphasis, the length of time to survey this river, the cost and the length of time for execution of the work would be comparatively small in relation to the benefits that would be forthcoming. This is work that must be undertaken by the Board of Works.

There is only one other point I wish to raise and I do so with all humility because of my short time in the House. I should like to refer to the visitors' waiting room in Leinster House. I think it is a most undignified spot in which to have visitors waiting before admission. The cost of improving it sufficiently would not be too much; I do not think it would affect the Minister's Estimate very much each year, and I do think that some more dignified structure should be available in which callers could wait for Deputies or while they were awaiting admission to Leinster House. I feel sure the Parliamentary Secretary has had this matter in mind but I should like to add my voice to those of other Deputies who have mentioned the matter.

Mr. Breslin

The importance of arterial drainage can be estimated from the fact that practically every Deputy who has spoken on this Estimate has referred to it. Important as arterial drainage is in the fertile lands of the country, it takes on an added importance when one travels to the small uneconomic farms on the western seaboard. It is on behalf of the small landholders in the West that I intervene in this debate. There is no need for me to tell the Parliamentary Secretary that in the West good land is very scarce and very precious. For that reason drainage is most important to the people if they are to hold on to the fairly good land they have been tilling over the years.

From time to time, application has been made from various areas in West Donegal to have important drainage work carried out on the local rivers but unfortunately Government after Government have turned down our requests, so that the position is worse to-day than it was 20 years ago. Along some of our smaller rivers in West Donegal we certainly have good fertile land, or land considered good in West Donegal. It is disheartening to find year after year, the crops of the small farmers being carried away by the yearly floods.

I have in mind two rivers, one the Owenea in the Glenties area and the other the Crolly river near Gweedore. The yearly losses to farmers along those rivers are a very serious matter. We feel that the Government should pay a little more attention to the question of arterial drainage in the Gaeltacht and congested areas. If these smaller rivers have to wait until the larger schemes have been carried out, I predict it will be in the neighbourhood of 50 years before the problem is solved. By that time, if depopulation continues at its present rate, there will be no need whatever to drain the rivers because the problems that confront the people will not arise for the simple reason that there will be no farmers left in that part of the country.

I should also like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the delay in proceeding with the construction of piers and slips that have been sanctioned a considerable time ago. Piers and slips are very important in the lives of the West Donegal people and of the people in the other western counties. The success of the local fishing industry depends a great deal on the provision of such slips and piers. For some years past, we have been informed that a new pier is to be erected in Magheraroarty in West Donegal, to serve the local fishing boats of the islands of Inishbofin and Tory. One could understand the delay if the money had not been voted and the plans prepared. We were informed two years ago that the construction of this pier would commence in the near future. Two years afterwards it is necessary for me to stand up in the House and inform the Parliamentary Secretary that the work has not been done.

The same applies to a smaller scheme in Curransport which also serves the islands on the west coast of Donegal. There does not seem to be anything to prevent the commencement of that small scheme and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to inquire why this delay continues year after year. We have the same position in Arranmore Island for which certain projects were sanctioned. I understand the plans have been prepared or are in the course of preparation. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into these matters which are of vital importance to a part of the country that, unfortunately, suffers more from emigration and migration than any other part of the Twenty-Six Counties.

The provision of piers will undoubtedly help the fishing industry and would keep more and more young people at home. The drainage of the few rivers I have mentioned will help the small landholders in that part of the country where good land is scarce. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary, who undoubtedly will have sympathy with the people of that part of the country, will take steps to have something done in the matter. I feel that any Government should give more attention to the question of drainage in the Gaeltacht and the congested areas and to the provision of piers and slips. I feel also that if the Parliamentary Secretary is given an increase in his Vote he will be only too glad to spend that additional money in those areas that require it so much.

Mr. Donegan

I was rather surprised to hear Deputy Breslin pressing for the provision of an increased number of piers. My experience is — of course I have not as much experience of the West as Deputy Breslin — that we have far too many piers. Back in the old days when people suffered from privation and want, a lot of money was spent on the building of small piers to accommodate small fishing boats. Piers will not be needed in future to serve such small vessels.

The trawler of an ordinary, normal size can come into a port 50 miles distant from another port for one reason or another — for instance, because the fish would be nearer to the market or because it would be easier to come in. The provision of small piers along every two or three miles of coast is, in my view, a great mistake and a waste of public money. I think our approach to the problem now should have relation to the high efficiency of the trawlers one sees nowadays, the speed with which they can travel and the ease with which they can enter ports which are able to provide sufficient depth for them. It should be our view that the provision of numbers of piers, just because individual communities require them, is probably a great waste of public money.

Having said that, I should like to present a bouquet to the Board of Works with regard to their work in the provision of new schools. First of all, they design new schools all over the country. I think the design in rural areas is rather stereotyped—the schools are similar in each case—but excellent. Nobody has offered any real criticism of the design or structure of the schools which have been built over the last few years. Certainly I should like to say that, notwithstanding the fact that over a long period of years the Board of Works has perhaps been labelled as the place where most delays occur, it has been my experience as a Deputy that the Board of Works has been most helpful, so far as my constituency is concerned.

I remember one instance which occurred recently when I met a parish priest on his way to the Board of Works in St. Stephen's Green and he said to me: "I am just going into the Board of Works about a new school." I said to him: "Tell me, Father, how do you find them in the Board of Works?" and he replied: "The decentest people I have ever met. There are many difficulties, but we can sit around a table, talk about them and do our best to solve these problems. I know that I will get my new school just as quickly as it can be provided."

All parish priests might not express the same point of view and many of them may be irritated by the delays that occur, but many of these delays are occasioned by very excellent reasons, for instance, the necessity to make sure that there will be a proper water supply, the necessity to have a suitable site and the necessity to have other things of that kind looked after. There is also the necessity to get — if that is possible — the cheapest tender. These things take time, and while a body as large as the Board of Works must necessarily move slowly, I should like to hand a bouquet to the Board of Works for their work in my constituency in providing new schools at the earliest possible opportunity.

I now move on to consider the Glyde and Dee drainage. There are two positive aftermaths which are unpleasant to the people who have to suffer from them. One is the great damage that has been done to farmers in the draining of the Glyde and Dee; the second is the damage that has been done to what one might term the Annagassan fishermen. With regard to the farmers — and, I suppose, also with regard to the fishermen — the policy of the Board of Works must be conservative in these matters. If damage has been caused, if it is going to cost money to repair it, if there must be a disbursement of funds, the normal approach to the problem by the Parliamentary Secretary and by the Board of Works in general, will be conservative and it will be very hard to get money out of them. Any other approach to the problem must necessarily mean that too much public money will be wasted, that applications will be made by ten or 20 or 30 people where perhaps only one application is justified.

That approach can have the opposite effect, because decent, honest farmers, or, indeed, fishermen, may not have at their disposal the words or the facilities to put their complaint in the proper light and it may well be that in offices down the country their requests are often, shall we say, not ignored, but placed in a file which is allowed to become dusty. I feel that a more positive approach is needed to this problem and I would say that I do know — and I would register my complaint — that the farmers and fishermen to whom I have referred have been treated rather badly by the Board of Works. I could mention cases where the Board of Works, while draining the Glyde and Dee rivers, placed huge piles of spoil, which were no use for spreading on agricultural land, huge boulders, and heaps of shale in positions where they interfered with the proper grazing of the land, and where, perhaps, the provision of a small hedge or small wire fence would have meant that the farmers could continue to graze their cattle where they had previously grazed them.

Instead of that, we find that great loss has been occasioned because this huge heap of spoil takes up an area much larger than is really necessary. If the matter had been approached in a common-sense fashion and if fences which had been destroyed were replaced, or if fences were provided where they became necessary because of the drainage of the river by the Board of Works, this situation could have been avoided. In the disbursement of public money we must be ultraconservative; we cannot afford to spend money on every applicant who puts in an application of this nature, but I do think an individual approach is needed in this case and I would make an appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to see that such an approach is used in dealing with the farmers in my constituency who have suffered as a result of the drainage of the Glyde and Dee.

I should like to say that, whatever suffering was caused to individual farmers, nothing has brought such wonderful results and has so benefited the farmers of the district as this drainage has. There are areas, which were bottoms, as they are called in our district, and which were used for grass but which in wet seasons were of no use. Perhaps for six months of the year they were useless, but now they are capable of being grazed all the year round. I think that is a wonderful improvement, but even if there was no improvement resulting from that drainage in that way, we now know that for the next 50 years or so there will not be one further field becoming a bog this year and a further field next year, as was the case during the 30 years of neglect due to financial and other reasons that preceded this drainage scheme.

I now move on to consider the Annagassan fishermen. Various theories have been propounded as to whether or not drainage has affected salmon fishing but, no matter what theories are propounded, nothing is as good as hard experience. It is found all round where extensive drainage was carried on indiscriminately — and I suppose to be efficient it is necessary that it be indiscriminate — there has been grave loss to the salmon fishermen at the mouths of the rivers and this grave loss was occasioned to the Annagassan fishermen. I, in my way of business, am in that village at least four or five days a week. I remember when men, who could find employment with the farmers or in other businesses for may be eight months of the year, could go back to fishing salmon at Annagassan on the Glyde and Dee, at the fusion of the two rivers, for the months of the salmon fishing season. They could make plenty of profit out of it, and as a matter of fact, it was a boon to the village, but with the advent of the Glyde and Dee drainage scheme, that has ceased. Last year, about ten people set out to fish salmon, where before there might have been 50. After a fortnight, they ceased to fish salmon. They tried again in another week or fortnight, but again they could not catch a fish. I think I would not be incorrect in saying that the number of salmon caught in that mouth of those two rivers last year did not go into two figures — did not exceed ten salmon — and that in an area where an entire village had lived on this industry and had been able to put aside money for the winter every year!

That is just one of these things which occur. If we want to make an omelette, we cannot make it without breaking eggs; but, at the same time, these people, I think, find themselves cast aside because there are bigger fish to fry. I think it is necessary that these people should be met, whether by the Board of Works, the Department of Finance or any other Government Department, and should be given some undertaking that, either they will be compensated for their losses or that there will be real and positive action taken by the Government to restock these rivers.

It may be asked was the drainage of the Glyde and Dee responsible for this, and was it not true in the past that there was a cycle perhaps of five years when there was not a good yield from these rivers? That argument does not hold. If you want proof of it, you can go to Annagassan and you will not find the fishermen fishing there, but you will find them on the River Dee, because there is still dirt and refuse coming down the Glyde, and the fish will not go up there. No salmon will go up a river that is sour; and if drainage has that effect, we must meet the situation. In my view, compensation should be given to these fishermen, or alternatively we should be in a position to restock the rivers over a period of five or ten years, and the money necessary to do that would be very small in relation to the amount spent on drainage. But it must be given if these 30, 40 or 50 men are not to be cast aside, just because in numbers and in influence they are not as important as those who were looked after in the drainage of the Glyde and Dee Rivers.

I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to take up this matter in his Department and make himself acquainted with these hard facts. I can say to him that the Deputies of my constituency will be with him in the near future to discuss what can be done in regard to the Glyde and Dee Rivers. These men are not afraid for the future; all they want is hope for the future, or else some compensation for the losses occasioned.

Finally, I should like to say that there has been criticism of the fact that men on the Glyde and Dee drainage work and on drainage work generally have been paid a sum greater than agricultural labourers. There is not any comparison, because these men can be told to go 20 or 30 miles to their work in the morning, and they have no choice but to go. If they do not, they just can leave their work and go to the employment exchange. There is no fixity of tenure for a drainage worker. For that reason, he must keep two houses; he must pay his landlady and send money home to his wife and family; his life is an arduous one. I do not think these men are overpaid. To be honest, I think, for the work they do, they are probably underpaid. and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to consider in the future whether or not these men are entitled to some increase in pay.

Mr. Carter

I propose to make a few points on these Votes, Nos. 8 and 9. The Parliamentary Secretary is looking for a sum of roughly £4,500,000 for the services of the Office of Public Works. Vote 8 bears the salaries and expenses of the administrative and executive sections in the Office of Public Works. That office is of course responsible for the administration of Vote 9. Vote 9 provides the funds for the purchase of sites for buildings for State purposes and for the erection, maintenance and furnishing of Government offices and other State premises, and also for the erection and improvement of national schools. On this question of the provision of national schools, during the course of the debate, we heard some criticism of the approach of the Office of Public Works in dealing with the preparation of plans and the development of sites and other techinicalities related to the provision of schools generally. In my experience, there is always a third party and in some instances we cannot level all the criticism at the Office of Public Works for the delays which sometimes occur in developing local sites for national schools, or in the negotiations and techincalities in drawing up plans and providing specifications or bills of quantity and matters of that kind.

I could relate a tale which applies to a Midland town, not in my own constituency, where a teacher who has taught for over 40 years in condemned buildings is now forced by circumstances to teach in a converted shed. One could feel rather strongly on this matter, because, as well as the welfare of the teacher, one would have to consider the welfare of the children attending this shed, and, as we are spending large sums of money on health, in order to provide against infectious diseases of one kind or another affecting our children, I think it is too bad that at this stage, since a site has been purchased in the area, that negotiations should not be put in hand immediately to have the building started. We all know that if children attending a draughty shed develop T.B., or a rheumatic disease of one kind or another, those diseases can affect them for the rest of their natural lives, and I think we should make it plain in this House that the blame should be apportioned proportionately. If local interests do not live up to their responsibilities, at least the parents and the children and, in the last analysis, this House should be severely critical of their attitude.

An Ceann Comhairle

This House is only concerned with the Parliamentary Secretary now.

Mr. Carter

There is always a third party, as I mentioned before, and it is just as well that we should clear the air.

An Ceann Comhairle

It may be just as well, but we cannot introduce extraneous matter of that kind into this debate. It is the Parliamentary Secretary who is responsible.

Mr. Carter

To come to drainage now, the Shannon valley flooding has been mentioned and the survey which followed the disaster of 1954. I come from the Shannon valley. In Longford and Westmeath, we have two rivers, the flooding of which badly affects both those counties. We have the River Inny, which is placed No. 6 on the priority list and in respect of which I queried the Office of Public Works on a few occasions. I always seemed to get the same answer. On one occasion I was told that the survey was in hand, but that the report was not available and that it might take anything from four to five years before the Office of Public Works could say when they would be in a position to start even preliminary operations. I think that is just too bad because it is generally conceded that the flooding of the River Inny affects thousands of acres of the best agricultural land in the country; and I want to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the necessity for pressing ahead with the preliminaries, at any rate, in relation to the River Inny. Further than that, I will not go.

We have then a second river, the Camlin. I think it appears in the priority list as the Longford and, so far as I can gather, it is No. 15 in the minor catchment schemes. So far as I am aware, there has been no move of any kind to deal with the Camlin in any shape or form. Nevertheless, the Camlin was mentioned in the report of the Drainage Commission in 1940 and that report contained various recommendations in relation to the drainage of the Camlin river. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to take steps as soon as possible to deal with these two rivers at present causing havoc in the Shannon valley.

I think it was Deputy McQuillan who mentioned the report of the American expert in relation to the Shannon. Speaking from memory now, certain recommendations were made some years ago in the report of the Drainage Commission and on the advice of our own engineers; if some move were made now, apart altogether from the report we may get from the expert from abroad, by the Office of Public Works to quicken up the flow of the Shannon from Athlone onwards — I admit that might be a big undertaking — then some of the problems affecting us in the Shannon valley would be solved.

The flooding over the past few years arises, I think, for the most part from the fact that so many bogs have been drained by Bord na Móna in the Midlands directly into the Shannon. In 1954, when we had heavy and incessant rain, all the water heeled-up around Athlone and then spread out over the surrounding countryside. I think we should take steps in easy stages to combat this menace. If, and when, the report of the expert becomes available, the Office of Public Works should be put to work forthwith to see if we can find even a partial solution of this problem without delay. It is a problem in the Midlands. Even in a normal year, not to mind about an abnormal one, we are seriously affected by the Inny, the Camlin and the Shannon in and around County Longford.

Deputy Derrig referred to the preservation of buildings of note, buildings of public interest and buildings of architectural importance. He mentioned the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham. Some time ago, there was talk of the Dublin Corporation reconstructing the Royal Hospital to house their staffs. We would be delighted if that should come about because the Royal Hospital, apart from its association in the past with wild romance and high endeavour, is conceded by experts to be an architectural gem. It is a pity that at this stage of our development we should let it fall into decay and into such a state of disrepair that it is no longer habitable.

Likewise, there are certain houses in the City of Dublin and elsewhere which, in my opinion, could and should be preserved. We have the home of Tom Clarke in Parnell Street, the homes of Richard Brinsley Sheridan and of John Mitchel. A move should be made, preferably voluntary, if people were sufficiently civic-minded, to preserve those buildings but if a move is not made voluntarily, then steps should be taken by the State, even in a small way, to preserve these famous buildings.

Someone mentioned in the course of this debate the delays which occurred in the machinery section of the Board of Works. We have a number of very costly excavators and other machinery for dealing with arterial drainage. In the course of my duties as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee we discussed the problem of running these machines in an economic fashion. The majority of these machines were very costly, some of them costing £43,000. There are other types such as dredgers and excavators which cost upwards of £30,000. The purchase of these machines represents a very substantial investment and I think it is incumbent on us, and particularly on the Minister, to see that these machines are kept working round the clock, if that is at all possible, because it is very easy to understand that if you do not use them on a round-the-clock basis they are not going to pay their way. It may not be easy to arrange for that; in these matters the layman is very much at sea, but the experts should know more about the possibilities of the use of these machines for the longest possible working periods.

I think it should be possible, having regard to the experience we have gained in working these machines over a number of years, to find some means of operating them more economically. I will for the present be content with saying that much because I am not prepared to go into the matter in greater detail. I would say, however, that I have experience of the smaller type of machines which are used around farmers' premises and the farmers hold that if they cannot get work for the machines, at least for two-thirds of the time, that the machinery does not pay them. I take it much the same applies when it is a question of machinery operated by a Government Department.

I will satisfy myself now with saying once again to the Parliamentary Secretary that I hope that in the course of the coming year his office will be able to give me a more detailed account of the operations to date regarding the survey of the River Inny and that I shall also hear from them regarding the future plans for Camlin River.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

The matter to which I want to refer and on which I want to tackle the Parliamentary Secretary is also this question of drainage. I am not at all happy about the progress that is being made in the implementation of the Arterial Drainage Act of 1945. On other occasions and in other places we got the impression from the pronouncements of the Parliamentary Secretary, perhaps when he had not the same amount of responsibility as he now has, that if he were to find himself in his present position things would hum and hum very considerably in regard to this matter of arterial drainage throughout the whole country because of his interest and anxiety about the progress of the arterial drainage programme. We are anxious about the programme, but we do not see any indication of this humming which we were led to expect.

It is nearly two years ago since a deputation came here and was received very kindly by the Parliamentary Secretary, in connection with the River Deale in County Limerick. I do not want any extra favourable consideration for either the Deale or the Maigue in Limerick. There was a previous priority list and I want to know from the Parliamentary Secretary, and I want him to be specific about it, whether that priority list still holds. There were certain alterations made in it when one river was brought up and that put the others back one place and put the River Deale in the 11th place, according to the information we got from the previous Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Beegan, last year. I want to know what progress is being made in regard to the starting of a survey of the Deale and whether any provision has been made or any consideration has been given to the matter so far.

Unfortunately I was not able to be here when the Parliamentary Secretary was making his statement when introducing this Vote and I do not think that he referred to that matter of the Deale at all. I know that this process of arterial drainage is a slow one and that it will take years upon years before it is completed, but I do not think that the progress made so far is satisfactory or that the work has gone ahead with the expedition with which we were led to believe it would proceed when the present Parliamentary Secretary was in charge of the Office of Public Works.

I am rather handicapped here to-day because I had a certain document from which to quote in connection with this matter of drainage. It was sent to me presumably by a native of Limerick now living in the West of Ireland; it was a copy of the Connacht Tribune. It was sent to me with a report of a speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary in March last marked on it but unfortunately the paper has got lost. I am, therefore, without more ammunition which I badly need for the purpose of this debate. The Parliamentary Secretary was speaking about drainage schemes in progress or contemplated in the West of Ireland and principally in Galway at the present moment. I drew the conclusion from the Parliamentary Secretary's speech that he more or less gave the impression that there would not be any other drainage schemes in Ireland except those concerned with the West of Ireland and particularly with Galway. If that is the Parliamentary Secretary's view and if he adheres to it, he is in for trouble.

Mr. Donnellan

That is not true.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

I can tell him there will be wigs upon the green. I remember one sentence out of that speech. It was to the effect that the machinery was in Galway and he gave the impression that he was going to see that it would stay in Galway and in Connacht. We in other parts of Ireland are just as much interested as the people of Galway and Connacht in this question of arterial drainage. We want no priority beyond the priority available to us on the list. However, we want to see that that priority list is rigidly adhered to and that continuous progress is made in the implementation of the Arterial Drainage Act of 1945.

I want to know now specifically from the Parliamentary Secretary what are the prospects of any start, in the near future, of operations on the River Deale in Limerick, at least as far as the survey staff is concerned. The information I have gathered during the course of years is that that survey is a protracted business itself, not to talk of the start of the carrying out of a comprehensive arterial drainage scheme on any river.

That is all I have to say in regard to this Vote. There are a whole lot of other matters in which we are all interested, particularly rural Deputies. This is a Vote which concerns the representatives of rural areas in particular, I think. However, there are a whole lot of other matters in regard to school buildings, the erection of vocational schools and other matters of that kind but the principal thing about which I want to speak to-day and to call to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary is the question of the arterial drainage side of the Office of Public Works. I ask him to let us know definitely how we stand in County Limerick with regard to the River Deale. We can come to the River Maigue later on; that is 14th on the list.

Mr. Donnellan

First of all, may I thank the 22 Deputies who spoke on this Estimate? Certainly, from my predecessor, Deputy Beegan, who started the debate, to Deputy Donnchadh Ó Briain, the 22nd Deputy to speak, the whole discussion was very helpful. It was kept on a plane this year that I am proud of, just as every one of the 22 Deputies who spoke in this debate should be proud of it.

The one complaint from Deputy Blaney and others as regards the Vote was that in Vote 9 there is a reduction —that is, in the work of the office— whereas, on the staff of the office, Vote 8, there is no reduction. The reduction in Vote 9 should be accompanied, Deputies say, by a reduction in Vote 8. Apart from the fact that the increase in Vote 8 includes provision for pay increases of general application, the Vote includes a substantial amount for staff who are working on projects which have not yet reached the stage at which expenditure from Vote 9 is required. A good example of this would be the cost of engineering and other staff engaged on survey, design and the preparation of arterial drainage schemes, as well as architectural staff engaged in planning other works which have not yet reached the contract stage. That is the explanation. Apparently, it was the only criticism.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Briain, when finishing his speech, said he was not too happy at all about the arterial drainage position. Neither am I. Neither is any Deputy in this House. No matter what speed we attain, surely Deputies will all agree with me —it is my view, anyway—that we can never go fast enough. Deputy Ó Briain referred to an item in a newspaper which somebody from the West of Ireland sent him. It concerned a speech I made at some place or other. Well, as regards machinery, certainly they have more drainage machinery, I think, in the South of Ireland at the moment than we have in the West. If I did make that statement what I really meant was that by the time the Corrib in Galway is finished some other scheme will probably be prepared and some of that machinery can be handed on. I hope that, before the machinery finally leaves Kerry, it will go into Limerick——

Donnchadh Ó Briain

I read more into it than that.

Mr. Donnellan

I think it is very unfair to talk about Galway or the province of Connacht as if they were getting something to which they are not entitled. I suppose I have to carry that cross. I feel it is very unfair. One of our first schemes was the Brosna; that is the heart of Leinster, so to speak. Then comes the Glyde and Dee, which affect Counties Monaghan and Louth. The third scheme was the Feale in Kerry and Limerick. I think that if Connacht or Galway are getting something now, they are entitled to it.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

I did not say that at all.

Mr. Donnellan

We distribute it as best we can. I have not the say in it, as the Deputy knows very well.

Mr. O'Leary

Would the Parliamentary Secretary not be a bad man if he did not give it to his own county?

Mr. Donnellan

I want to make it plain that we are not responsible for any delays with regard to national schools. The allocation this year is £1,350,000. I hope we will spend it all. There are no delays, so far as we in the Board of Works are concerned, in the carrying out of that work. Deputies must realise that a site has to be provided by the manager. We send our architect down there. In some cases, the site may not be suitable. The drainage facilities may not be suitable there. Probably the water facilities are not up to the mark. The title may not be correct there. All that causes delay, but we have to do it. It will be seen, however, that the delays are not our fault.

Several Deputies have approached me on the matter of having schools, as they say, "up-to-date." I agree. I agree that no school should be built without proper water being laid on and sewerage. However, we are not the bosses at all. Where it is possible to have such amenities, where the manager agrees to them, we are only too delighted to provide them. We ask for that co-operation. I hope that, from to-day out, where it is possible that facilities such as water and so forth can be got, they will have such facilities in any school that will be erected in the future, whether in urban or rural areas.

Deputy O'Leary mentioned the River Sow. It is an old drainage district. It was restored under the 1924 Act and further works were done in it in the early 1930s. Its maintenance is the responsibility of the Wexford County Council. It is No. 16 on the minor catchment list for consideration under the 1945 Act. That is the position about it.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Sixty or 16?

Mr. Donnellan

No. 16.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Not too bad.

Mr. Donnellan

Deputy Blaney referred to Milford National Schools, Donegal. He said the Board of Works were responsible for the delay in building the school. Plans and specifications have to be prepared before tenders can be invited from contractors. In the case of that school, the Board of Works architects have been working on the plans and these will be completed as soon as possible.

Deputy Beegan referred, I think, to the Deale-Swillyburn scheme and its place on the list. I think it was during his term of office that it was decided to go on with the survey of that scheme. It is now completed and we expect that work will start on it this year.

The Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, was mentioned by several Deputies. That building was evacuated because of danger arising from deterioration of the woodwork in the roof and elsewhere. Steps are now being taken to put repair work in hands but the future of the building has not yet been decided.

Deputy Beegan was worried about the progress on the Corrib scheme and said that I said it would take ten years to complete it. I think Deputy Beegan himself made that statement before ever I did. I hope it will not take ten years; anything we can do to speed up the job is being done. I think the Deputy realises better than I do that the Corrib has about the hardest rock cut in Europe, but, nevertheless, I hope it will not take ten years.

The River Shannon was mentioned here by several Deputies, particularly by Deputy McQuillan. The position is, as the House knows, that the engineer was brought over here some time ago and he has submitted a preliminary report on the matter. That has been circulated to the other Departments for their comments. I think it has been returned and sent on to the engineer. We are waiting now for his final report and the moment we get it the House will hear about it. I hope it will lead to something being done along the Shannon, if anything can ever be done there.

Deputy P.J. Burke wants to know who is responsible for the maintenance of piers and harbours. It is not so easy to answer that question. We have various harbour authorities and county councils which are responsible for maintenance. The Office of Public Works is responsible for Dún Laoghaire, Howth and Dunmore East. There are several harbours constructed under the Marine (Works) Act of 1902 and there are 12 slipways and piers built by the Congested Districts Board. We have no responsibility for any repair work. As regards Howth Harbour, work on an extensive dredging programme to be spread over three years began last year. Balbriggan is the responsibility of the Dublin Port and Docks Board and Loughshinny is the responsibility of Dublin County Council.

Another old eye-sore of mine was referred to by many Deputies. That is the gate lodge at the entrance to Leinster House. The position is that it was under examination several times and some years ago a plan for its improvement and extension was prepared by the Office of Public Works. That plan was not acceptable to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which took the view that any work done there would have to conform with the general scheme of improvement and extension of Leinster House. May I say that if the Committee on Procedure and Privileges wishes to make representations on that matter, I shall be only too glad to get the work done, and the sooner the better? Deputies should make their representations on the matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I agree that the place is a disgrace, but as soon as representations are made to us, we will carry out the work.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

I am a member of the Committee and I know that they made representations, not to the Office of Public Works, but to the Government.

Mr. Donnellan

My information is that they did not. They turned down the recommendations that were made to them. If I am not correct in that, I shall let the Deputy know later.

Deputy Sheldon wanted to know about repairs to the pier at Greencastle. A survey has been made by the Office of Public Works, but the report is not yet available. No representations have been made with regard to the need for repairs there. Such representations should be made to the Donegal County Council, which is responsible for the maintenance of it.

Deputy Beegan raised the question of the memorial at the Custom House. I am informed that the memorial committee have made arrangements for the unveiling ceremony to take place on the 20th May.

I was also asked by several Deputies to give some report as regards progress on drainage schemes throughout the country. The Brosna scheme is completed. On the Glyde and Dee, about 90 per cent. of the work has been done. On the Feale about 80 per cent. of the work has been done. On the Corrib-Clare about 16 per cent. of the work has been done. As regards survey work, the Deale-Swillyburn has been completed and work on the Maine, in Kerry, has also been completed. I am wondering what subject of debate some of the Kerry Deputies will select when that work is in operation next year. At one time they spoke about the Feale and, when we got the work going there, they started about the Maine. When the work on the Maine is in progress and the Estimate comes along this time 12 months, what subject will they select at all?

Mr. Palmer

May we take it from that that the work will be in operation this time 12 months?

Mr. Donnellan

It will not be my fault if it is not. Deputy O'Hara and other Deputies mentioned the question of the River Moy. The survey is completed there and the design is in hand. Deputy Beegan mentioned that there was some delay in the work on the Suck. That is not the case. There is no delay whatever.

Some other Deputies have raised the point of the maintenance of those schemes. It is always a sore point when people have to pay. It is all right when the money is coming from the Government and the taxpayers generally. I was delighted when Deputy Beegan referred to this matter and said that he believed that maintenance work should be done by the local councils. The Act makes that provision and I hope it will remain that way. When a certain amount has been spent on drainage, the least the local people should do is to keep it in repair.

I was asked what it would cost as regards the Brosna. This coming year it will cost £21,000 which will be paid as follows: Leix will have to contribute £822 10s. 2d.; Offaly, £14,696 17s. 6d. and Westmeath, £5,480 12s. 4d., making a total of £21,000. I was also asked what it would mean in regard to the charge on the rates. It will cost Leix ¾d. in the £; Offaly, 1/1 in the £ and Westmeath roughly 4d. in the £.

Mr. Palmer

It is worth it.

Mr. Donnellan

I hope it will always be the view that it is worth it. Many points were raised in the course of the debate. The question of wages was raised. I am glad to inform the House that within the past 24 hours I got consent from the Minister for Finance in regard to an increase of pay for drainage workers throughout this country.

Mr. O'Leary

That will be welcome.

Mr. Donnellan

Very often I am held up here by questions put down in connection with what the pay should be. I agree that the work involved is very hard work. I also agree that the workers in question are good, loyal workers. I am asked why not pay the county council rate of pay and things of that kind. We cannot do that because, as I explained several times—I am sure my predecessor agrees—drainage schemes may embrace two or three different counties where the standards are all different. Therefore, one cannot go by that. From this day forward, I hope that it will be some time before we will hear anything about an increase in pay as regards drainage workers because that increase is being given now.

I am very grateful to each and every one of the 22 Deputies who spoke. Obviously, I could not cover all the points that were raised. Deputies Beegan and Glynn referred to the Killimor river. I think quite an amount of work was done there under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I fully realise the importance of this matter. That is not because it is in Galway. I shall go into the matter during the coming week and communicate with both Deputies about the position. I made inquiries before and thought that a case could be made whereby we would get back a certain amount of valuable land in that area. It is a minor scheme and I do not think the cost would be very much. I was delighted to hear Deputy Beegan say that we should have three or four major schemes and three or four minor schemes going together. I agree.

Mr. Beegan

Rock excavation is the big trouble. That was not done under the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Mr. Donnellan

We may be slow at the moment with regard to arterial drainage but we are only growing up in this matter, so to speak. It is only a few years since it started. From day to day, a certain amount of money is expended on extra engineers and surveying. We hope to speed that up and get along faster with the work in time.

On behalf of the Board of Works, I wish to thank the Deputies who spoke so nicely about the work we are doing. I happened to have a run round Leix-Offaly within the past week or ten days. I am sure the House will be surprised to hear that, where some years ago I saw four feet of water, shops and houses are being built at the present time. The work that is being done is splendid. Possibly, some may say, it is too good. I had occasion to visit Kerry and I saw there the great work going on on the Feale. Great work is also in progress in Galway. There is a big delay in the surveying and planning of arterial drainage schemes. Since they are highly skilled jobs, the work has to be prepared. The day of building a house without a plan is gone and the day of the arterial drainage scheme without a plan is gone.

I think our workers, engineers and staff are doing great work. The only regret is that we are not doing it fast enough. I am no more satisfied in that respect than is Deputy Ó Briain. I hope we will be able to do it faster every day. I compliment every one of the 22 Deputies who spoke on this Estimate. The points they raised will be looked into and, in regard to any points I have not answered, I shall communicate with the Deputies from the office.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.