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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 May 1956

Vol. 157 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 10—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Resolution:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

In the explanatory leaflet which the Minister circulated, he gives under No. 5, on the revenue side, a list of certain tax rebates and reliefs. Perhaps, it is good to know that, even on a matter as heavy and as serious as a Budget, the Minister has not parted with his sense of humour because I see he proposes to give a rebate of £200,000 to hard-pressed tobacco. I doubt if the same tobacco were ever as hard pressed as it is under this present Budget. Even if the hard-pressed variety is getting a certain relief as a result of this rebate, it still is a more costly luxury to the old age pensioners, and to that poor section of our people who have no other little luxury than the pipe of tobacco, than it has ever been in their experience.

There is one matter to which the Minister, the House, and the country generally, should give a good deal of attention at present and that is the effect of present policy on industrial employment. Industrial employment does show, from the figures, certain fluctuations, but the fluctuations since this Government came in have been more violent than at any other time since the end of the war. The National Development Fund was established to provide employment for the non-insurable classes referred to as the assistance classes. The figures of employment amongst those classes bear eloquent testimony to the good effect which the expenditure out of the National Development Fund has had in achieving that purpose.

However, we do not seem to have the same happy position to report in respect of industrial employment. From the figures supplied from the Statistics Office, it is evident that there was steady improvement during the year 1954. I notice that, in the month of February, 1954, the number of unemployed registered in that category was 30,000 odd. By the end of May, about the time the change of Government took place, that figure had dropped to 25,000. That was a very respectable drop of about 16 per cent. and after the change of Government that trend continued, even if it did seem to slow up a bit. There was a further drop of 1,500 by the end of the year.

However, between December, 1954, and February, 1955, there was a very marked increase to over 33,000. That, of course, may be characteristic of that season of the year, and the registrants would be more numerous in that category at that time of the year, but I do not think we ever had such a catastrophic increase as we had between December, 1954, and the end of February, 1955. There was a very satisfactory decline from the end of February for the remainder of the year until the month of December. Again, however, there was a further very heavy jump between the end of 1955 and the end of February, 1956, and the number on the register at the end of February this year was 2,000 higher than at the end of February, 1955. There has been a drop again at the end of this month to 30,800.

The comparison of these figures for the past two or three years indicates that there is, this year, a steady decrease of those in the insurable classes who are registered as employed. There is a decrease of between 2,000 and 3,000. The Government will have to put itself in the position of seeing whether or not its financial policy is having a very adverse effect on the class of employment which is most useful, and which tends to stop emigration more than any other class of employment, that is the employment given by industrial firms.

The question of inflation has been mentioned by the Minister in his Budget statement, and, while inflation is a problem the world over, it seems to be somewhat worse here than it ought to be. Comparisons have been made in a statement issued this year by the Association of Chambers of Commerce of Ireland. I think every Deputy has received a copy of that statement which indicates that our position, in the matter of the cost of living, is the third worst of a number of countries which are mentioned— Ireland, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Holland, Italy, Switzerland, West Germany, the United Kingdom and the United States of America. It will be noted that a number of these countries were in the war and that our position amongst the neutral countries, from the figures given in this statement, is the highest.

It is stated in a footnote to the statement that the inflationary pressure on this country is almost as serious as that on Great Britain where an autumn Budget was introduced last year in an effort to correct the position. It states also that France has also experienced severe inflationary pressure, but that, in France, they have succeeded in holding the price index in check since 1952. Ireland compares very unfavourably with many of the other countries mentioned in the table given. These figures are given on page 5 of the statement which was submitted to the Minister for Finance on 17th February, 1956, by the Associated Chambers of Commerce of Ireland.

When we were the Government, we were subjected to a great deal of criticism, largely by the Labour Party, on the question of standstill Orders. Whatever the hardships caused by these Orders, their purpose was laudable and still remains laudable. That purpose was the prevention of this very evil of inflation. It is a bit ironic that the people who were most critical of the Fianna Fáil Government are now engaged in an effort to bring about a standstill situation.

Not a standstill as regards wages.

The Trade Union Congress and the Congress of Irish Unions have, for the past six months, been trying to bring about an agreement with the Federated Union of Employers to bring about a standstill condition as regards both wages and prices. I cannot see the difference between what they want to bring about by negotiation and what was brought about by official action. It is quite true that, in the case of such official action, the effect on wages is never quite equal to the inflationary pressure on prices, but, nevertheless, the cut-throat race between them is checked, and it was checked here.

Now, these two large and very respectable bodies of Irish workers, the Trade Union Congress and the Congress of Irish Unions, realise the value of the action taken by the Fianna Fáil Government during the war to secure, as far as official action could secure it, the value of the wages which the workers were receiving. The action of these congresses is to be commended and personally I hope their efforts with the Federated Union of Employers will bear good fruit. The Minister for Industry and Commerce brought in his hire-purchase Order quite recently for the purpose of achieving the same result.

The question I would like to ask the Minister for Finance in regard to this question of inflation is one that a number of people have put to me. I must admit that I did not find myself in a position to give a satisfactory reply to my inquirers. Recently there was a loan of £20,000,000 floated and only £8,000,000 of that money was provided by the public. There must be one or two reasons for the failure. Either the people did not have the money or they did not approve of the Government's financial policy or believe that it was competent to spend £20,000,000 if they got it. I will leave out of the argument for the moment the doubt as to the popular belief in the competence of the Government and assume that the people did not have the money and that that was the reason why they did not subscribe to the loan. The Minister, according to his Budget statement, if my recollection is correct, obtained under this loan a sum of £8,000,000 which was underwritten by the banks.

The question I have been asked in this regard is that if the people did not have the £12,000,000 by which the loan fell short of its target, did the banks use their power to create £12,000,000 of credit and has a sum of £12,000,000 been created by the banks and been let loose in circulation to intensify this problem of inflation? That is what my inquirers indicated to me has taken place—if in fact the people did not have the money—and that, therefore, this inflationary action on the part of the Government in creating this money, which the people did not have, will worsen the position still further for the public in relation to prices. We know that this is a very complex and mixed up question.

That particular account did not add to its solution.

It is not an easy question and not even Deputy Anthony Barry, who tried to correct Deputy MacEntee here the other day, is capable of giving a satisfactory answer to it. However, I want Deputy Barry to accept from me that we stand wholeheartedly behind the statement of the Leader of this Party when he said it was regrettable that the loan did fail and that the objects which were mentioned as the beneficiaries of the money, when it would have been obtained, were objects of which this Party has always approved and I think most of them were initiated by this Party. Therefore, I do not want to appear to take any Party advantage from the fact that the loan failed. It is most regrettable that such a position should have arisen, but, seeing that it did arise, I am putting this question. It is not political and it is not Party; it is, if you like, financially technical and I am really seeking information on a query that was put to me: if this falling short of £12,000,000 has been due to the fact that people did not have the £12,000,000, has the creation of the £12,000,000 accentuated inflation by £12,000,000? If Deputy Barry can give a satisfactory answer to that I will be most grateful to him.

I do not think he could give a satisfactory answer to such a simple Deputy.

I want the Parliamentary Secretary to accept it from me that I had this problem put to me by ordinary people.

The Minister for Finance answered it here in the House. He explained how the money came.

The Parliamentary Secretary is side-tracking the net point.

Mr. de Valera

Let him answer the question then.

The Minister has told us where he got the money. I have been asked the question as to its inflationary effect, assuming that the people did not subscribe the money because they did not have it and that, therefore, the money was created by the banks' power of creating credit. The Parliamentary Secretary smiles at my inquiry. I am genuinely innocent of knowledge in the matter. I admit that quite frankly. The Parliamentary Secretary is adopting an air of superior knowledge on the question.

Perhaps he would give me the answer. Deputy Barry quite sensibly has remained silent on it.

I will wait until later.

If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to put me off by smiling irrelevancies he will not succeed.

The Deputy was given the answer in the House.

The question can be answered later.

I want to find out what was the effect of the creation by the banks of that money which was not in the people's possession and giving it to the Minister for Finance.

It was not created.

Mr. de Valera

It was clearly inflationary and the Parliamentary Secretary knows it.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would say on this general question of the banks' practice, do they create credit?

We cannot proceed by way of question and answer. To answer would give rise to more questions and still more questions.

That is exactly what has been happening. I am following the bad example of the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Deputy should not follow bad example from any Deputy.

I was asking a question of which I hope the Minister for Finance will take notice and make some reference to it in his general reply.

I hope the Minister will reply to the Deputy's question.

In any event I think we have demonstrated, in spite of the hard things that have been said about Fianna Fáil's financial policy, that the people had more money to provide for these public purposes when Fianna Fáil was in office. The records show that for the last year of the first period of the Coalition Government, instead of there being any saving, the people spent half a million pounds of what they had already saved, and in the first year that produced that terrible Budget of 1952, the people saved £30,000,000.

The country will never forget the 1952 Budget.

We shall not allow the Coalition Government to forget the 1952 Budget. We shall not allow the Labour Party to forget the 1952 Budget.

We will be talking about it again to-day.

The Labour Party lambasted Fianna Fáil because they raised the price of cigarettes from 1/8 to 2/4. There have been two increases in the price of the packet of cigarettes since this Government came in, a commercial increase of 1d. and the new increase of 5d.

We will be talking about the 1952 Budget.

The Labour Party can make its own case.

As long as anyone attacks the Labour Party, I will answer him.

Some Deputy from the Labour Benches can speak later, without interrupting.

I always regard these interruptions as complimentary.

The Chair has quite a different view.

There was a commercial increase of 1d. on 20 cigarettes and there has been this increase of 5d., a total increase of 6d., since this Government came in. Before the last election, the public were told that the 1952 Budget would be revoked, that the taxes it imposed were quite unnecessary, that we were taking £10,000,000 over-taxation from the public, that we were budgeting for a surplus for the following year in order to have a very favourable Budget and to face a general election on the basis of that very favourable Budget. The out-turn for the year proved that that statement was wrong. The Coalition Government, far from doing what they told the people they would do, retained all these taxes and have now added to them. That is why I say we shall not allow the 1952 Budget to be forgotten, because the comparison to be made now in the price of cigarettes is 1/8 before the 1952 Budget and 2/10 now, an increase of 1/2, of which the Labour Party approves and which it intends to retain.

Tell us about the butter subsidy.

It was this Party that introduced subsidies.

And removed them.

It was this Party that introduced subsidies. The Labour Party scouted them, derided them and said they were a Fianna Fáil stunt and that they would be no party to them.

Only for this Party, you would never have been in power. You forget that.

Deputy O'Leary can make his own statement later, without interrupting Deputy Bartley.

We never hear him.

The prices which resulted from the 1952 Budget remain and these new increases are being superimposed upon them. In spite of that 1952 Budget, it was established before the General Election of 1954, and testimony is now borne to the fact in the publications of the Statistics Office, that stability in prices and wages had been reached. In addition, the cost-of-living index figure indicated that the trend was downwards. Within three months of the change of Government, that favourable position was thrown into the melting pot and prices started to rise again.

For 12 months, the organised workers tolerated that position, but then they indicated quite clearly to employers that, if the cost of living was not reduced, they would have to seek compensation for it in equivalent rises in wages, and so the competition between prices and wages set in, still further depreciating the value of money for everybody. It is little consolation to the social welfare classes to be given a small increase by the Minister for Social Welfare to bring the value of their small incomes up to what they were before this cut-throat competition set in.

We believe that the people have got wise to the deception that was practised upon them and are now satisfied that Fianna Fáil spoke the truth. To tell the people to eat, drink and be merry because to-morrow will be a happier and easier day than to-day was the cruellest of deceptions practised by Parties who had already experience of Government and who should have known the difference.

Take the statement, which has been referred to so much by speakers on this side of the House, made by an ex-Minister for Finance before the last election. Two days before the election, when nobody had time to reply to it effectively, Deputy McGilligan, broadcasting from Radio Eireann, said that there was little doubt that savings in the cost of Government amounting to several million pounds a year could be secured without much effort; that a distinct change of policy was required, however, and a new outlook on the part of Ministers was demanded, if the reduction of £20,000,000 and upwards, desirable in everybody's interest, was to be achieved.

It is very easy to point out that he did not say that he would reduce the cost of Government by £20,000,000, but a statement by an ex-Minister for Finance, broadcast over the State radio, that a new outlook on the part of Ministers was demanded if a reduction of £20,000,000 and upwards was to be achieved cannot mean anything other than that this ex-Minister for Finance had a plan and a method of reducing the cost of Government by £20,000,000. Who should be better able to tell the public whether that was so or not than a man who had been a Minister for Finance and a Minister for Industry and Commerce over a long period? It is these deceptions which the people now resent.

I was interested to hear one Minister say the other day that he would be prepared to meet the public in his constituency on the basis of this Budget and would feel assured of the same support as he received on the last occasion, or increased support. My comment on that is that there were two vacancies in Dáil Eireann, which occurred recently, and many vacancies in Dáil Éireann were allowed to remain unfilled for a much longer period than the two vacancies in question, NorthEast Dublin and Leix-Offaly. Nevertheless, the Government Parties saw to it that these two by-elections took place before the Budget was introduced. I think that is a sufficiently effective comment on the statement of the Minister for Social Welfare that he believed the people in his constituency would support this Budget.

Only a few days elapsed between polling and the revealing of these new taxes. In my opinion, it would have been a very decent, democratic gesture on the part of the Government to allow this question to be decided by the people, or at least to have allowed. the people in these two constituencies to express an opinion on these proposals. There is not an adjective that was used by any of the Opposition Parties on the 1952 Budget which cannot now be applied with more effect to the taxes of 6d. a gallon on petrol and 5d. a packet on cigarettes. It is not an isolated 6d. It is 6d. down on previous taxes on petrol and it is another 5d. down on taxes already imposed on cigarettes in the 1952 and other Budgets.

I am sticking to one particular item because a great many Parties claimed that cigarettes and stout were as much an essential in the poor man's family budget as was the food on his table. This additional tax the Minister has now put on cigarettes must be looked upon as a superstructure, together with previous taxes, down on the people. The Government Parties cannot simply get away with it by saying: "Fianna Fáil is responsible for the others; we have put on this 5d. only and we are giving the old age pensioners and other social welfare recipients increased allowances."

It is not good enough and if the Government felt any way complacent about it, if they felt really as the Minister for Social Welfare said he felt in relation to his constituency, I am quite certain they would have let the people of Leix-Offaly and of NorthEast Dublin express an opinion. The fact that they did not is very eloquent of the Government's realisation of the temper of public opinion in relation to this Budget. It is very eloquent of the resentment against this extra burden placed upon the public. It is evidence of the fact that the Government know, in spite of this creation of money, that the inflation which has accompanied it has rendered the position of the average householder much more difficult than it has been ever since the end of the war.

I think there probably is a tendency, or a temptation, when discussing something like the Budget, to follow up what may be labyrinths or side alleys of the issues at stake. Even at the risk of repeating a considerable amount of what has been said, it seems worth while now to look at the Budget as a composite thing, with two purposes. Presumably, it will be accepted on every side that the Budget has twin purposes. Firstly, we must look at it as the balance between the State's income and its expenditure for the year and look on that balance as being necessary in the light of the requirements of the financial or fiscal policy of the State for the same year.

I think we will get a lopsided view of the validity or the weakness, the strength or the value or the fault of a Budget, if we look at it solely as an attempt to make ends meet. While that must be the predominant purpose, we should never lose sight, in criticising or praising, of the way in which these ends are brought to meet. Looking at the first aspect of the present Budget—the way in which it is proposed to balance the expenditure and the revenue of the State—I think we must look for criticism of or opposition to the Budget in either of two ways. Criticism may be that the expenditure is unnecessarily high or misplaced, or that, while it is agreed that we have to find money, the money is being found in the wrong way. Looking at the first point, since the introduction of the Budget, we have had from the opposite benches nothing but a number of general vague complaints about the cost of Government being too high and the cost of the services being too high. There have been complaints that the Government is spending too much money.

It seems to me that, if we are to get anywhere on a discussion of this kind, criticism must take some much more concrete form. If anyone were willing to come forward and point out particular services, particular capital schemes, particular capital expenditure on which he thought there was unnecessary expenditure or which he thought could be postponed, we would get somewhere. In the absence of that sort of concrete suggestion or alternative proposal, I think it is advisable again to look at the expenditure which this Budget is framed to provide for. Firstly, the capital expenditure, as the Minister mentioned in his opening statement, is £27,000,000 odd. It comes under the headings of housing, sanitary services, hospitals, agriculture and other matters, the amounts of which apart from shipping and transport, are rather small.

On which of these should we now cut down? Out of a total expenditure of over £100,000,000, we are spending something short of £8,000,000 on housing this year. Does anybody believe that is an excessive amount? I for one do not. I do not believe it is excessive even having regard to the difficulties of revenue and to our balance of payments position. I do not know whether anybody else in this House, particularly among the Opposition, is prepared to come forward and say that is too much. I believe it is a necessary amount. Looking on the other items of capital expenditure, it is necessary, as the Minister has said, constantly to review and constantly to supervise capital expenditure. However, I find it difficult to see in any of these items of health, hospitals, transport, schools and other State buildings, or roads or sanitary services, or agricultural development, any figures which could be significantly reduced, without affecting the real progress of the country.

If there were, we might find in these capital services some way of reaching a saving, some way of shortening the gap between revenue and expenditure, but I believe the Minister has made out his case for this type of capital expenditure for £27,000,000. If those were not projects meeting with general approval, meeting with the general requirements of the public, there would be some Deputy opposite found to point to one or other of the projects which he regarded as unnecessary. We must safely assume that the Government is not spending too much on the capital side and that criticism might then arise on the Supplies and Services and not on the capital side of the expenditure.

Looking at the non-capital side of the Budget, there are some matters which have been mentioned already and which I think can usefully be brought to mind again. The general complaint has been made—and I think this really comes on the non-capital side—in a very vague way by the Deputies opposite, certainly by Deputy MacEntee and certainly by Deputy Lemass, that the cost of Government is too high and that this Government has done and is doing nothing to reduce that cost. That complaint was made as if it was this inter-Party Government which was responsible for the machinery, and for the extent and size of the machinery of the Government, which they took over in 1944. That accusation is so lightly and so easily made that it seems to me worth while to inquire into the size of the Government and the size of the personnel of the Government over the years at various times.

These are figures, now, which are not meant as a defence or as an accusation, but as figures which are relevant to a discussion of this issue. As accurately as the figures are supplied in various parliamentary answers, we find that, in 1932, there were 20,254 civil servants employed by the State. These figures do not, of course, include the Army or anything like that. In 1939, after seven years' administration by the Fianna Fáil Party, that figure had risen to 26,700 odd. By 1947, that figure had risen to 31,500 odd; by 1953, it had risen to 37,600 odd. After the two years of inter-Party Government, that figure is at present 33,600 odd. So there has been a reduction in the number of civil servants in the last two years. There has been an increase in their cost of £2,500,000 and the increase in this year's Budget is the additional cost of increased wages to the civil servants and other Government servants.

I think these increased wages are justifiable. I think they are presented as a necessary claim on the expenditure; they have been arrived at in a time-honoured way, the method of independent arbitration—not as a result of the efforts of any pressure group, not as a result of any generous gift, but, as I say, as a result of the time-honoured method of fairly assessing the matters in dispute. I think it is a moral, as well as a real, charge on the expenditure of this country. That figure of expenditure has undoubtedly increased by £2,500,000 and it is for that reason I think it is too lightly said that this Government has failed to reduce the cost of Government. When it is too lightly said that we are maintaining a top-heavy and useless form of administration—not entirely useless, of course, but too big, too complicated and too expensive—it is relevant to consider that graph of the figures of the size of our Civil Service, and then we find that the only downward trend in these years is the substantial one seen in the last two years, a reduction from 37,000 to 33,000 at a time of ever-expanding Government work and activity.

What is the answer to the cost of the administration problem? The Minister has said that the Government had active measures under consideration in the form of inter-departmental committees, or groups, for cutting down Government expenditure on actual administration and for introducing more efficient and less expensive methods of administering the ordinary services of the Government. That is the obvious and the right approach. Deputy MacEntee thinks otherwise. Deputy MacEntee speaking in this debate, at column 186 of Volume 157 of the Official Report, said as follows:—

"That is not the way to deal with the situation."

—He is referring to the Minister's proposals—

"The Minister is going to meet the heads of Departments. When I first came in as Minister for Finance in 1932, we had the same sort of parlous budgetary and financial problem to deal with and I told the heads of the Departments fairly frankly that either they or we were for it and that if it came to a showdown it was not going to be we. We were going to have the Budget balanced. We had the unpleasant task of imposing taxes in 1953 but we were also going to secure economies. The proper way to do the job is to go to the heads of the Departments and say that if they are not able to cut administrative costs substantially within the next 12 or 18 months, then they are not the men for the job."

I do not think that is the way to cut administrative costs and to increase the efficiency of the Civil Service. I do not think you can go to the head of any Department and threaten him that, if something is not done within the next 12 or 18 months, he is not the man for the job. I do not think that policy is going to achieve anything or is likely to be in any way as effective as the Minister's own method.

Deputy MacEntee, later on in his speech, suggested that that was the way it would be dealt with in any industry. I do not think that is the case, and I think in any modern industry, we would find some such approach to this problem as the Minister is making, and that these results, particularly results which mean a reduction of staff and an increase in efficiency of methods, would come better from cooperation with the staff and not from dictation from above. Although the method proposed by the Minister has been criticised, the single alternative presented so far is grossly unsound and most unlikely to have any good results.

If the Deputies opposite think the cost of Government is too high, surely we should have something more concrete from them, something more definite and more helpful, than the suggestion from Deputy MacEntee that we should go to the heads of the Departments in the Civil Service and tell them that, if they cannot cut down the costs of administration within 12 or 18 months, then they are not the men for the job. Surely, if we are considering the question of the cost of Government, the actual number of people employed by the Government is a highly material fact, and if we find in the last two years a reduction of some 4,000 in the number of civil servants, surely the Government is going in the right direction, and not only going in the right direction, but——

Mr. de Valera

Would the Deputy help me by telling me where he got these figures? I am most interested in them.

I very much regret I cannot. They are replies to a number of parliamentary questions, but I have not got the references for them.

Mr. de Valera

The Government has been hiding its light under a bushel very much, so.

We often did, you know.

Mr. de Valera

Indeed you did; it is just typical of you.

You would not do it anyway; you would put it up where everybody would see it.

Deputy Finlay on the Budget resolution.

With regard to the other increases, apart from the number of staff, I think the increases in pay to the staff have been arrived at in the correct way. The other significant increases are an increase of £1,250,000 for health services; an increase, as the Minister mentioned, of some £340,000 for relief of rates on agricultural land and a sum of £135,000 for the universities. I do not want to pretend that anyone suggests these are unwise— because they do not; it is only fair to say there is no suggestion that these are unwise, or unnecessary, or misapplied; and, if we come down to the real bones of this matter, I think we must come to the conclusion that supplies and services and capital expenditure are high, but that we cannot find in them any significant items or any significant tendencies, which could be got rid of, or which are unnecessary.

We must face up to the fact that our problem is not a problem of too high costs, although that is part of the problem; it is not a problem of spending too much money or of spending money unwisely. It is largely a problem of ensuring that we have an increase in real national income to meet the expediture that we must bear. If, as seems clear, the capital provisions, and the non-capital provisions are not really in dispute, what is in dispute? It must be that we have gone to look for the money to meet this expenditure in the wrong place, from the wrong people and in the wrong way. I think that is worth considering. The position clearly is that, if we are right in saying that these services and capital projects were necessary and wise, we had to find the additional money by revenue. What way have we found it? We have found it by imposing additional taxes on tobacco, petrol, matches, minerals, betting and dances. That is, shortly, how this money has been found. In addition to that, there is the increase, the not very large special increase, in postal charges so that the Post Office should pay for itself. But, generally speaking, the money has been found to meet the increase in expenditure in the way I have indicated.

What is the first thing that strikes one about all that classification? I fully appreciate, as a person who for a considerable period has smoked himself, that tobacco is, undoubtedly, say, the first of the luxuries. It cannot be said to be a luxury, but smoking certainly is a habit and a very simple habit to which a tremendous number of people are addicted. Even allowing for that fact, the position clearly is that the whole list of taxes, with the exception of one matter which I will mention later, gives to the individual the voluntary end of taxation. A man may or may not pay additional taxation under this Budget, depending on whether he feels entitled or prepared to go without. That sounds a harsh doctrine but I think it is appreciated and is being appreciated by the people of this country that no additional taxation has been forced on any person as a result of this Budget.

The Deputy's colleagues did not say that in 1954.

I am talking about this Budget. I think it is of some importance to try and deal with it now.

There is a difference between tea and bread and tobacco.

Mr. de Valera

You did not say that in 1947 either.

The Leader of the Opposition does not smoke much.

Deputy Finlay to continue.

That is where this taxation is of importance and I think, like so many things, it is of importance because it is something which the ordinary person outside this House with no political axe to grind does appreciate. I do say, in so far as the taxes on petrol are concerned, there are circumstances under which they become an inevitable additional expense on people in their ordinary business—and it is only right to say that a large part of the additional part of tax on petrol will fall on pleasure driving—but, outside of that, these are taxes which can be met by any person who wants to meet them by voluntarily changing their spending and avoiding them in that way.

What is the consideration uppermost in the mind of the ordinary man when he considers this selected group of extra taxes? I think it is—it is something which is becoming more and more patent in the last four or five days since this Budget was introduced —that the people realise and that they should realise that these taxes have been imposed in such a method that, with the maximum fairness, the additional money has been obtained in the way and from the people who might be expected to be able to afford it best. I think that is the sharp difference which this Budget presents to the minds of the people of this country when they compare it with the Budget of 1952; and one of the most remarkable things is the precision and speed with which people have realised that a similar problem has been met in such a very different way in this Budget.

The next matters which I think should be considered in the Budget are the concessions which it was found possible to give in it. These concessions are not large. When a Government is giving out tremendous sums of money and is in a position to give large concessions, I think you will probably find, that, in a general way, it covers everybody. When a Government is in a position to make a limited number of concessions I, for one, think that it is important to look with some care at the sort of concessions it makes. That gives us a very good idea of the mind of the Government and the ideas of the Government.

In regard to the two major concessions which arise under this Budget— the social insurance relief and the local authority and other old, pre-1950, pensioners—I think that hardly anyone would deny that they are selected as two sections of this community who had by far the highest claim to any concession the Government found it possible to give. I do not think anybody in this House could have been ignorant of or could have been entirely unmoved by the situation of these pensioners in the lower pension group, in particular, from my own personal experience, local authority pensioners— men who had served various local authorities, various boards of health and various boards of guardians over a very considerable period; men who were accustomed to a certain amount of independence and to tremendous security in their jobs, and who find themselves having retired, and now being exceptionally old and unfit in most cases for further employment, with quite inadequate pensions. I think the selection of these two groups or classes for the concessions that were available is something not only welcome in itself, for its intrinsic value, but welcome as a clear indication of the approach of this Government to the various sections of the population and their various claims.

There are some other matters in what I might call the secondary purpose of the Budget—as a financial weapon used by the Government to influence the financial and fiscal policies of the country. I think it is quite clear that Deputies must agree that the provisions of the Budget, both with regard to the taxes which have been imposed and with regard to the concessions which have been made, are none of them likely in any way to hinder or to obstruct any production or any progress of production, either agricultural or industrial. I think great care has been taken in the Budget to avoid that, and at the same time quite clearly, in the two main taxes which have been introduced, there is a powerful influence created on the balance of payments figures. If you look at the figures for the import of tobacco and petrol alone, you will find that any restriction on the consumption of either of those two articles would have a very definite, a very direct and very significant effect on our balance of payments. I think that in choosing those articles I have listed, in particular tobacco and petrol, the Minister has married with considerable success his obligation to increase revenue and his obligation to keep his eye on the main financial problem in this country. I think their selection fulfils that twin purpose extremely well and it is one of the things on which the Minister is to be congratulated. It is certainly a matter for praise in relation to the actual Budget itself.

With regard to what might be described as the fiscal provisions of the Budget, there are certain things which have not received as much prominence as others—that is, I suppose, only to be expected—and certain things which have not received possibly as much consideration in the course of this debate. Comment was made and criticism advanced that the provision for wear and tear of plant and machinery in industry, and so forth, was not adequate and would not make a tremendous lot of difference to many people. I suggest that this provision was not introduced by the Minister as something in the nature of a major concession, but it is very significant as being the first step in the right direction towards reform and improvement of industrial taxation. Thinking people concerned with industry who take the long view and do not expect to reach the summit of their successes this year, or even next year, are greatly cheered by that movement in the right direction on the part of this Government. It is of some importance to emphasise that.

There are other reliefs with regard to certain securities, both in respect of income-tax and estate duty, which are welcomed by the people and which will give an added incentive to saving and to investing in Irish industry and Irish enterprise. It is not suggested that they are very large from a revenue point of view, but they represent yet one other step in the right direction. They are certainly strongly indicative of the views of the Government and they are of a character designed to encourage people to produce more and invest more in production within this country.

For those reasons, I suggest that, even at this stage in the debate, it is quite clear that, in so far as Deputies opposite are concerned—and it has been made clear over the week-end in so far as people outside this House are concerned—there is no substantial criticism available or being put forward of the way in which this Government is spending the money it has to raise. Indeed, there is considerable appreciation, having regard to that necessary expenditure, of the way in which the Government has decided to raise this additional revenue. People are relieved, pleased and appreciative that, when we were asked to face a problem so similar mathematically to the problem of 1952——

Mr. de Valera

Except that one is double the other.

——we took this course rather than the course adopted on a former occasion. Thirdly, I believe that there is appreciation of the other provisions in the Budget and the alterations in the tax code by those people who have gone into this Budget in detail because the steps portrayed therein are indicative of the Government's policy of moving in the right direction with regard to tax reform. Though the measures with relation to tax reform are in themselves individually insignificant and though none of them is very large, they are nevertheless a good thing.

I am quite satisfied, and I do not think the Deputies opposite are at variance with us on this, that people are particularly struck by the concessions which have been given and by the way in which they have been given and of the choice of people to whom they have been given. This is a fair Budget, fair as between all sections of our people. In the financial circumstances in which it has been framed, it is a proper Budget and a just Budget.

Mr. de Valera

The net result of the proposals in this Budget appears to me to be that there are some £9,500,000 additional imposts being placed on the community, not counting the £500,000 which is being taken from the Road Fund, which is existing taxation and admitted by the Minister in his Budget statement to be unnecessary for the purpose for which it was levied. It is now being taken over and used for capital development purposes. We have, therefore, £9,500,000 additional imposts. Of this we have £3,000,000, the yield of the special import levies, plus another £500,000 of current taxation being taken over to finance capital enterprises. To me, that represents a fair summary of the present budgetary proposals—not bad, mark you, for a Government that said it would reduce expenditure, for a Government whose former Minister for Finance suggested that for anybody who knew where to look there were sums of money hanging about in savings of expenditure to the extent of £10,000,000 or £20,000,000.

Now the first question one naturally asks is: Why were these £20,000,000 or £10,000,000 not brought in to relieve the situation, instead of putting on yet another £10,000,000 in unnecessary, as it would be held to be in these circumstances, taxation?

Suppose the position were reversed and that this was a Fianna Fáil Budget. Suppose it was we who were occupying those Government Benches and that we had on this side of the House the four Parties which at present constitute the Coalition: Fine Gael, that great Party inspired with the desire to reduce expenditure; the Labour Party which would reduce taxation on such things as tobacco as representing taxation on necessities; Clann na Poblachta with the fabulous millions in our external assets available for capital development; and Clann na Talmhan—goodness knows, what they stand for—the so-styled Farmers' Party. Suppose these Parties were sitting on these benches and we introduced a Budget such as the Budget that has been introduced by the present Coalition, what an onslaught——

The Deputy brought in a worse Budget.

Mr. de Valera

——there would be upon that Budget by the Parties now comprising the Coalition. If our Minister meekly pointed out that he needed a sum of £5,000,000 in order to balance his Budget, there would have been an immediate outcry. It would have been said that the figures were unreal, and implied that there was a conspiracy between the revenue officials, the officials of the Department of Finance and the officials of the various other Departments who help to compile these Estimates, the Minister for Finance and the Government—all together —to deceive both the Dáil and the country. It would be alleged that there was hidden away in these Estimates £10,000,000 of unnecessary taxation. It would be alleged that we were out on a campaign of austerity, that our Budget proposals were cruel, unjust, unconscionable—indefensible. It would have been alleged that such taxation was unnecessary; and, if we gave proof to the contrary, the proof would have been ignored and the charge would have been repeated that there was £10,000,000 unnecessary taxation. Even if that £10,000,000 subsequently turned out to be a deficit of £2,000,000, the allegation would have been persisted in; it would have been repeated and used all around the country and made an excuse for the pretence that we were embarking on an austerity campaign.

We have reached a serious position in the country's economic affairs. There is no doubt whatever about that. We have increasing governmental expenditure. I have always sympathised, both when in Government and out of Government, with the Minister for Finance. Budget day is the day of reckoning for all Departments. It is very popular with heads of Departments and with Ministers who have pet projects of one kind or another—and when I say "pet projects" I mean projects in which they are particularly interested for the public good we must suppose—to forget this. Side by side with their proposals, there should be a taking into account of the resources to meet them. The fact is that there is a competition between Parties, both in this House and out of this House, as to who will promise most. Rarely have we people who will tell the community that these benefits have to be paid for and—if we omit, for the moment, our external assets due to past savings—that there is no source from which these moneys can be got except from taxation and out of the people's pockets and that the result of a great deal of governmental action in these matters is simply a redistribution of whatever wealth or incomes already exist. I always have sympathy with the Minister for Finance who has got to face the music, over a week or so, for all that has been done throughout the year. It should be his duty and the duty of his colleagues to keep that day of reckoning in mind and not suddenly to have to face a deficit of £5,000,000 or £10,000,000, or whatever the number of millions may be, and to have to impose all the vexatious taxation necessary to meet the deficits.

If it were we who had to face this deficit, we would not have speeches from this side of the House such as some of those which have, in fact, been made from this side of the House. We hear people talk about unity. There is or there should be unity in this House amongst all Parties working for the service of the people who sent them here to represent them. It is no pleasure to us to see promises that were made, and that fooled the people, exposed. It is no pleasure to us to realise that this exposure is made possibly only at the expense of the resources of the country as a whole. The best way to get unity in this House is to have a decent Opposition that will do its duty in supporting the Government, where the public interest demands it should be supported, and in ruthlessly exposing the Government when the Government is failing in its duties towards the public either by deceiving the public in getting into office or, still worse, by failing in its duty to the public by not doing its work properly when it is in office.

In this Budget, there is this £9,500,000, leaving out the £500,000 which would make it a round £10,000,000—it seems to be cropping up in multiples of ten, apparently. Roughly £10,000,000 of taxation is being imposed because current expenditure has outrun current revenue— taking as expenditure what the Minister and the Government propose to spend this year and taking as revenue that which is supposed to come from taxation as it existed before these proposals are put into effect.

There is a deficit and it has to be met. It can be met only by reducing expenditure or by increasing revenue, or both. We had to do it when we were faced with a problem of twice the gap that exists at present and an adverse balance of payments of nearly twice the magnitude, too. Our problem was twice as difficult. We had to meet it by a reduction of expenditure and by certain increased taxation. The deficit must be met; we have to face that fact. Let us hear no more of this pretence that there are tens of millions of pounds knocking about for a Minister to put his hands on. You can cut some administrative expenses; I have no doubt about it.

I should be glad if it were true that, in two years, the Government have been able to reduce the number of civil servants by 4,000. I had not heard that figure before. It was mentioned by the last Deputy who spoke. I doubt if it is true. I should like to know where he got that figure. If it is a fact, it is the first instance I have seen that there is any reality in the Government's promise to reduce expenditure. I will admit, particularly if it ran through all the grades, a reduction of 4,000 civil servants in two years would be a substantial diminution, but, as I say, I should like to know where these figures which the Deputy used came from.

It is well for the country to realise that it is extremely difficult to reduce expenditure. After all, if it were easy to do so, every Government would do it. It is difficult and it is because it is difficult that it requires determination if it is ever to be done. We took up the position that State expenditure had reached such a level that we should have to resist any further increase in expenditure. Anybody who has examined a Budget or who has had anything to do with Budgets knows that from year to year there are what you might call automatic increases in expenditure. The most that could be hoped for in more or less inflationary times—in times of rising prices— is that the income in pounds would offset it but that is only temporary because increases in remuneration quickly catch up with income again. There is the matter of the increase in the service of the national debt, for example. There are year-to-year increases in expenditure, unless they are offset by some definite and deliberate saving economy. So far as I know, the Government has done nothing in that regard, but if the figure of 4,000 fewer civil servants is true I will admit it is something and even something considerable, but it has not exhibited itself in financial figures because the amount of expenditure for the coming year is far in excess of that for previous years.

Expenditure has gone up. If expenditure goes up, then, unless the yield from taxation goes up to an equivalent degree, new taxes have to be imposed. The Minister has to balance his Budget; we admit that. However, if it were we who said that the Budget had to be balanced we would be attacked as people nothing better than menial bookkeepers. When we took the national accounts as representing the national position and said that it was essential in our conditions that they should be balanced, we were told we were nothing better than menial bookkeepers and that we should have a higher concept of what a Budget could do.

The present Government has had an opportunity of showing these higher concepts and how these young geniuses they had at their backs would put them on the right road. They should indeed be called genii and they would want to have Aladdin lamps. The ordinary idea of genius is not enough. They would want to have their Aladdin lamps with them. These genii with their Aladdin lamps have not done much to help or show the present Government how to get out of their difficulties. They have not shown them how to balance the Budget except by the time-honoured methods of increasing taxation when the Government cannot diminish expenditure.

There was a gap in this case of some £7,000,000. The Minister reduced it in the usual way until he brought it down finally to £5.3 million. If we brought in such a Budget we would in debate here very quickly get away from high finance. It would be brought down to the individual home, to the housewife and the worker who, at a time when prices were rising, had difficulty in making ends meet. It was a catch cry when we were talking about ends meeting as far as the nation was concerned but when it came down to the household and when the housewife had to try and make ends meet it was quite a different matter. If, in addition to the present pressure on the housewife through increased prices, you had the further taxation envisaged here we would have heard about it at every cross-roads.

There was no use making the case that was made here to-day that cigarettes and tobacco were relative luxuries. In our 1947 Budget, when we introduced subsidies—we did it at a time of rising prices—in order to get the money to introduce subsidies and to lower, as we did at that time, the cost-of-living index figure by, I think, about 13 points, we had to impose taxation. When we tried to subsidise bread, tea and sugar by very substantial amounts and tried to get the money by putting taxation on the pint and on tobacco, we had the Labour Party going around the country, reinforcing Fine Gael, as they are now, and telling the people that we regarded the poor man's pipe and pint as luxuries and that that was our attitude. When we had, in 1952, the very unpleasant task of imposing taxation, we were told that we were pursuing a policy of austerity.

The Minister talks about consumption outstripping production and no savings. When we said that—we said it at a time when it was as true as it is apparently now except that it was true to a greater extent then—we were told that we grudged the people their high standard of living; that we thought they were eating too well, drinking too well and enjoying themselves too well and that our policy was a hair-shirt policy, a policy of stupid austerity. We were told that we were pursuing that policy of austerity at the dictate of the Central Bank and in imitation of, or under compulsion from, the Chancellor of the British Exchequer.

If those who are bringing in this Budget to-day were at this side of the House we would be told that in the attempt to slow down hire purchase and the other measures taken we were following slavishly step by step, Mr. MacMillan or Mr. Butler or whoever might be the Chancellor of the British Exchequer. Everybody knows that it is true that this would be said. Will the present Government say now that they grudge the people the standard of living they have, that they want them to eat less, drink less and have less enjoyment? They will not say it from that side of the House. They said in the past that such taxes would diminish purchasing power, and that they were deliberately designed to limit or lessen the purchasing power that is at the disposal of the individual citizen.

The reason they now give is that consumption is clearly at the present time so high in relation to production that there are no savings. The position is like that which would result from consuming the whole crop yielded leaving nothing for next year's seed. The savings of the community are like the seed, the seed that is reserved from the previous year's crop in order to provide the crop of the following year.

If we are to have economic development in this country we must have current savings but a campaign of demoralisation was started by the Opposition Parties throughout the country and they and we are reaping the benefit to-day. The chickens have come home to roost to the Government but, unfortunately, they are coming home to roost to the people of the country and the community as a whole as well. For the first time in the history of the country, we have reached a situation in which we are not able to meet our capital demands. That which we think necessary for further development we are not able to get out of current savings. We are not able to get it except at grievous loss in regard to our external holdings.

Nothing was so sickening as to listen in this House a few years ago to people who were talking as if there was no limit to the resources of the country and telling the people that they could, if they had the will to do it, raise their standard of living and did not need to save, that the savings of the past would suffice in order to finance the development required here. Many of those who spoke that way either did not believe it themselves or were extremely ignorant. Whichever it is, the country will have to pay for it, I am afraid. Unless we pull together now we will not pull the country out of the mess.

As far as the capital position this year is concerned, there is the fact that at a time when there is an inflationary tendency and when prices are rising, we have had to go to the banks to make up the deficit. The Government got only £8,000,000 odd from the people towards the £20,000,000 loan.

Everybody knows that the big difference between borrowing from the people and using the banks for borrowing is that if you borrow from the people, you are not creating any disturbance in the relation between money and goods in the community. You are not increasing the quantity of money available to purchase whatever quantity of goods there may be. Generally speaking, other things being equal, if you borrow from the banks, you bring new money into the community over and above what already is in existence there. You will have more money than you had before to purchase the same amount of goods available. It seems to me that that ought to be fundamentally clear to everybody. When you are forced to go to the banks, you are creating new money, no matter where the banks get it. Fresh money is put into circulation. If the banks do create credit in order to meet the Government's demands, the banks have to keep their cash ratio in order and have to keep a greater quantity of liquid assets immediately available. That means that they will have a greater proportion of their assets in a less remunerative form.

We have several disturbing features in the present situation, but the most disturbing of all is the one concerning our capital expenditure. I have always been afraid of this. I have spoken about it in the past. We are now reaching the stage when £40,000,000 is the annual demand for capital purposes. This year, the Minister has cut it down somewhat; he has cut it down, I think, to £37,000,000. That is the sum required for public capital within the State and up to this year we have been in the neighbourhood of about £40,000,000 for capital purposes. The savings of the community would have to be very substantial indeed to meet that sum regularly from year to year without vastly increased products. If the savings of the community are to be substantial there are two ways of dealing with the matter—either cut down consumption or increase production.

The greatest fault I find with the measures which the Minister is taking to meet the situation is that there is no consistency about them. He ought to go all out to increase production, and, if he wants to do that, the first thing to attend to is to see that every inducement is given to increase agricultural production. He has not done that—quite the contrary. There is about £12,000,000 of produce brought in from outside every year that could be produced here at home. You have either to increase production or reduce consumption and the Minister has apparently gone out largely on the side of reduced consumption. By his taxation, by his special levies and by the money which he is transferring from current revenue to the capital account, he is diminishing consumption and making some contribution towards meeting his capital requirements, which indirectly reduces the demands on our external assets.

One of the most extraordinary features of the situation, and one of which I would like to get a detailed explanation, is why, when, up to the present, the deficiency in the balance of payments used to be met by increased external indebtedness, that no longer happens now. The reduction in the banks' external assets shows that. We are reducing our external assets and the external assets of the banks and from that there is a whole chain of consequences. The fact that production has not kept up with the greater monetary demand means that there is an overflow of the demand and that we are bringing in consumption goods from outside. The bringing in of these goods from outside means that we are reducing our external assets. When we reduce their external assets, the banks are no longer in a position to deal properly with our external trade or freely make home advances.

Our imports are now over the £200,000,000 mark and you must have a considerable sum available in liquid foreign assets to handle that. The contribution by the banks to the Government loans means a further reduction of the money at their disposal. The Minister and his colleagues know, as everybody who has read the Budget statement knows, quite well that there is here now, as I have said, a serious economic situation which requires to be handled. We believe that that serious situation was largely brought about by mishandling but that is not going to help the country. When the Minister appeals now to the private individual to help, how different from what they said in 1952. It was suggested then by these master magicians, by the genii to whom I have referred, that it was our ignorance was at fault.

We ought all to produce as much as possible and to save the results of that additional production, so that it can be invested in further production. That means that we have to be industrious and, if we want to make further development, we have to be thrifty. Industry and thrift have been placed at a discount for a long period in the speeches made by certain politicians in this country. It is essential that somebody should say these things now. We want industry and the desire to work and to produce efficiently. We want thrift. If we act thriftily, we will have savings and we will be able to finance our capital enterprises by these savings. The whole progress of this community depends upon efficient production and thrift—in saving, as much as we possibly can, so as to employ it in further development.

I do not know what more I can add. I can only say that I, and everybody interested in the welfare of this country, would hate to think that our people should be left in a fool's paradise, that they should be left in the position that, when the savings of the past are gone, they will be like a man who was left a legacy and who became a spendthrift, and then found that, when his legacy was gone, he was out on the road. It is true that we have not reached the last of our savings or the last of our resources but there must be a combined effort to face realities. The first reality is that our resources are limited and that the Government's spending of those resources at the present time is at a higher rate than can be afforded with present production. The Government by taking the amount it is taking even for its capital purposes is depriving private enterprise of the capital it requires.

If I were asked from the opposite side: "What would you give up?" I would say that I would hate to give up any of the enterprises engaged in at the present time but if I had to give up anything it would certainly not be on the productive side. We have social services. It is a hard thing sometimes to decide what you will surrender in order to keep within the country's means. The main thing, however, is to stop further expenditure until production has reached a stage at which we can afford it, to stop increased public expenditure until whatever productive enterprises are on hands get the amount they require in order to produce the things that will enable us to maintain our standard of living. If we do not act accordingly, as the Minister has pointed out, we will face a period in which our standard of living will be reduced. We would like to know what those who have spoken about higher social and other services will then have to say.

As regards the Budget, we could say it is imposing hardships on our people which they can with difficulty bear. But I for one would say it is better that we have these hardships now than that we should have to suffer much more severe hardships later. One of the things that human beings are capable of by reason of their intellect and their will is that they can forgo a present good for a greater good to come and that they can embrace a present evil in order to avoid a still greater evil in the future. As a community we must behave in that way. If it is necessary that we should face the present evil to avoid greater evils then let us make up our minds to face it. I believe the people of our country, like those of any other country, if properly led and if they feel they are honestly led, are prepared to follow that leadership. But the people who are trying to lead them now are people who are eating their own words. There is no statement made from the opposite benches to-day for which one could not get a parallel contradictory statement made two or three years ago. Were they honest then or are they honest now? That is one question that will come to anyone who is asked to follow their advice. Have we still "Philip drunk" or have we "Philip sober"?

The people of our country will, as I have said, if they are properly led and if they feel they are spoken to honestly, accept advice given to them. I could, for instance, demonstrate the consequences from the point of view of unemployment that will flow from the reduction of capital expenditure, and the unemployment that will flow from having less purchasing power available in the community. I know there is a danger of these things and that we must do our best to avoid them. But let us not at any rate be misled into thinking that evils and dangers such as the country must face at present can be met without proper effort. The one thing that is wrong is that there has been no consistency in the efforts that have been made. We have not had, as there should be, an effort to increase production, particularly where agriculture is concerned. Is it not a shameful thing that last year we should have a diminution of our agricultural production? We have had a 2 per cent. increase in industrial production but we have had a corresponding set-back in agriculture. The whole national income in real terms is precisely as it was, but on the national production there are increasing demands.

The same want of consistency is true of the Government in its attitude in regard to prices. They are acting as the dog chasing its tail. There has been no effort to get stability at any stage because it is the hard thing to do politically and they will not face that. Our national income has not gone up. Agricultural production has gone down. The obvious thing to aim at is to increase agricultural production and to increase production in industry, and that would enable us to overcome our difficulties in the safest manner. We have had an investigation into taxation on industry and after a number of years a report has been presented. One would think that that report would be studied and that if there was anything in it worth while it would be acted upon immediately. Surely there are experts enough to be able to come quickly to a conclusion as to whether there are in relation to this report possibilities in regard to changing the incidence of taxation so as to encourage production, and that if there are that measures would be taken now when it is so vitally necessary instead of postponing action on the report and putting it on the shelf.

There is no indication from the Government's side of a systematic effort to secure an increase in production. As far as we are concerned, we are voting against this Budget because of the fact that the Government has not tackled this problem consistently and because of the fact that the people who are bringing in this Budget are people who a few years ago said Budgets like this were not necessary and are now eating their words. As a public protest against the dishonesty now exposed, we propose to vote against this Budget. In relation to many of the statements that have been made by the Government, I do hope we have exploded some of the myths that were created and that it has been proved that what was done by us worked out in the long run in the country's interests. I hope we have exploded, for instance, the myth about the fabulous sums being available in the way of past savings to meet all requirements. As far as I can see the total amount of our external reserves at the present time can hardly be much above and is likely to be below the £100,000,000 mark. There was the year when we had to bring in this distasteful Budget and we had to face a deficit of roughly £61.6 million. Now there is one of £35.5 million. Naturally one asks the question: are the steps which the Government are taking sufficient to bring that down to what would be considered a manageable sum and many people who are interested in national finance are not satisfied that even £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 would be such because of the various consequences in the long run.

If there was a deficit of £35,000,000 last year and if the total reserve that is now available is probably less than £100,000,000 net, how long can we stand such deficits? Is there any real prospect that in the coming year there will be a deficit which will be less than £35,000,000? The first three months do not hold out very substantial hope. I do not think that they show any such hopeful indication. As well as I remember, there is about £28,000,000 of an excess in the three months. Four times £28,000,000 would be £112,000,000. That would be £112,000,000 on our mercantile trade, as compared with £94,000,000. I think it was £21,000,000, for the corresponding three months of last year. If we take four times the £21,000,000, it is short the year's £94,000,000. So, if we take the three months as in any way indicating what will happen in the year, we will not have a smaller deficit, but, apparently, will have a greater deficit. I hope it will not be so. The Minister has suggested that there seems to be a change since he imposed the levies, that the import excess has come down in the month of March, although it went up very dangerously in January and February. It is not yet clear, however, that the debit balance in our total external payments which, of course, is immediately affected by the balance in our merchandise trade will be reduced this year to a level less than it was last year. It went up by, I think, £29,000,000 or £30,000,000 last year, over what it had been before.

We have a very big leeway to make good and we will not make good by half measures. My own feeling is that we will have a very dangerous further deficit in our balance of payments next year and that our net reserves would not enable us to face two more such deficits as that one. The result then would be that we would be back as a debtor country and, if we do get back into that position, then, almost of necessity, our standard of living will fall because people will not lend to us on credit the things that we are able to buy because of the savings we have at the present time.

I conclude by saying that I regard the national economic situation as a serious situation, that serious measures have to be taken to deal with it and that we have no confidence that the present Government, constituted as they are and with the record of their past statements, are the people to deal with it.

Why are you clapping?

When you are over here, you will clap.

He said he would break stones before he would join a Coalition.

Better men than you broke stones.

A good deal of the criticism of the Budget that has been levelled by the Party in the opposite benches appears to be because of indignation at the attitude of the Labour Party now as compared with their attitude in 1952. I expect a good deal of irritation can be caused by the fact that the Labour Party are intelligent enough to take the line of action that they have taken during the past two years but it ill-behoves speakers on the opposite benches, especially the last speaker, to remind people of broken promises. People who live in glass-houses should not throw stones. We in the Labour movement have vivid recollection of promises made in a certain 18-point programme that undertook that, come what would, there would be no removal of the food subsidies.

Who said that?

Issued in the Fianna Fáil programme.

The Deputy should quote.

If the Deputy will give me an opportunity I will find it in the newspapers in the Library and have it placed anywhere he would like to consult it.

We will send it over to him.

If there is an attempt to deny that now, that is another story.

We will frame it.

The Labour Party are not trying to make any alibis in regard to cigarettes or the use of cigarettes by workers. We said then, and we say now, that cigarettes are out of the luxury class and have become practically an urgent necessity to most of the people of this country. That is so. But, when a Minister is endeavouring to balance a Budget, he does not succeed in raising revenue by putting a tax on top-hats or bedroom slippers.

The sale of those commodities is so negligible as to bring in very little revenue. The Minister must select something that is in popular demand, used by practically every one of the people and all the time. Could anyone in the Fianna Fáil benches suggest one article that the Minister was free to tax that would less injure the working man and his family than the tax on cigarettes and bring in the desired revenue?

We were conscious and proud of our small part in the statement by the Minister at the beginning of his Budget speech:—

"Let it be clear now as from this moment that there is no intention of interfering with the food subsidies."

To those of us who profess to be Labour representatives, and to those of us who are sincerely and honestly interested in the life of the working man and his family, it was heartening to hear a Minister give that assurance. We accept that assurance as applying, not only to this year, but to every other year of the lifetime of this Government until such time as world events permit the natural reductions in the cost of living and the natural withdrawal of food subsidies.

There is no attempt by the Labour Party to run away from their promises or from their attitude. Does Deputy de Valera, as Deputy O'Leary suggested, forget the jump in the price of a pound of butter following the 1952 Budget? Does he suggest that there is any comparison between the injury or the sufferings inflicted by this Budget and by the 1952 Budget? Is there any comparison in the effect on the worker's family? Under the 1952 Budget, the price of butter jumped from 2/10 to 4/2 per lb. and butter is an essential commodity for the health of the worker and of his wife and children.

Even I, who am an advocate of cigarette smoking, unlike Deputy de Valera, would not have the hardihood or the foolishness to suggest that cigarettes are good from a health point of view. Possibly, they placate nerves. Possibly, they are something we are entitled to enjoy. I do not think that anyone, even the most ardent smoker, would suggest that the national interest is being jeopardised by an additional tax on cigarettes. Look at the revenue that comes from the extra tax.

I was surprised to hear Deputy Bartley, speaking on the unemployment figures in relation to a certain section, drawing attention to the fact that, in 1954, when the inter-Party Government was in office, there was a remarkable increase in unemployment. He also suggested that at another period when Fianna Fáil were in office, there was a remarkable decrease. Surely Deputy Bartley, with his experience in the Dáil, must know that there is such a thing as an employment period and an unemployment period. Surely he does not believe that because there is a change of Government, these figures could alter so radically at any time. His suggestions were typical of the effort being made to build up a case for the benefit of the unwise and the unlearned that this Government are, by manipulation, increasing or decreasing employment.

Deputy Bartley also suggested that the trade unions are now crying out for inflation. At no time did any trade union, no matter to what congress it belonged, look for inflation. He also said that we cried out against the standstill Orders during the Emergency. The only standstill Order against which we cried out was that on wages. We were quite happy that there should be standstills on price increases. We have no wish that prices should be increased at any time. It is understandable that we would be satisfied that wages should remain stationary, but I would to remain stationary, but I would remind Deputy Bartley and others to study the principle advocated by the magazine Irish Industry which has taken great pains always to point out that, if we got increased wages, the natural consequence must be increased prices. I would like to point out now that we have never sought increased wages before price increases. When we seek wage increases before the Labour Court, we have to prove, per the index figures, that prices have gone up and that we were four, five or six points behind, and that we had been so far behind for anything from six to 12 months. We have to prove that we are looking for compensation for such price increases.

It is nonsense to say that if wages go up, prices must go up also, because the very minute wages go up to compensate for an earlier increase in price, prices follow suit. It is time the Government saw that these increases in wages, sought to compensate for previous increases in prices, were not passed on. I will leave it to the Government to carry out that job.

When I stood up, I did not intend to make a long speech on the Budget. I was moved to make a longer speech than I intended by some of the speakers I had listened to while waiting to get in. Now that all the noise and excitement of Budget day has passed, we have been given the opportunity to examine what effect the Budget has had on the people. In my own quiet way, I took advantage of my spare time to go around my constituency and find out what the people thought. It is no use saying that people like to pay more for their cigarettes. They do not. On Monday morning, the first morning, I think, that cigarettes were increased in price, there was a great deal of criticism of the people responsible for the new increase. That is a natural thing. Nobody likes to pay more, particularly if his wages remain stationary.

However, it is recognised in most homes that this is a working man's Budget. Although the housewife who smokes has some criticisms to make, she still says: "Thanks be to God, there is no increase in the price of foodstuffs." I challenge anyone on any side of the House to say that is not true. Thanks be to God, the increases are not on foodstuffs. Thanks be to God, the prices of essential things are not increased.

It was impossible for the Minister to balance his Budget without extra taxation, but he picked the things that affected the public interest least and that will probably bring in a substantial revenue. I should like to congratulate the Minister on leaving the food subsidies stationary. I expressed the hope earlier that the promise of this year is also the promise for the years to come. In the Labour Party, we believe still that the price of essential foodstuffs must be kept within the means of the ordinary people of the country, even if it is necessary to give food subsidies to keep that position in existence. We accept the principle of imposing taxation on some of the things that we enjoy as luxuries.

Deputy Bartley referred to the increased social welfare benefits as trivial. Can any members of the Fianna Fáil Party recall when there was a 25 per cent. increase on social welfare benefits given by any other Government? I do not think that 25 per cent. is a trivial matter. I do not for a moment suggest it is more than was necessary, or that it is as much as was necessary, but I accept the 25 per cent. increase on these benefits as a very substantial benefit to the people concerned. I accept it as a contribution, as a help to the people who are sick or unemployed. It is a reasonable help towards meeting the mounting cost of living and I dislike its being described as something of no importance.

To us in the Labour Party it is important. It is something that we in the Labour Party take credit in sharing with the Government, and as long as we are in this Government, we shall endeavour to help the unfortunate people who are unemployed or ill. Were the Minister for Social Welfare in the House, I would say to him that we still cannot sit back complacently, having achieved this. This is not the end of the road. We have been in office now for almost half our period. In a few months, the beginning of the other half will have begun. The Minister for Social Welfare and the Cabinet would want to see to it that a comprehensive social welfare scheme of a contributory kind will be embarked upon to give decent incomes to old, unemployed and ill people. A sum of 30/- a week may suffice for the time being, but that is not quite enough.

When Deputy de Valera was speaking, I was interested in what he stopped short of saying. Although I would not like to put words into his mouth, my interpretation of what he was about to say when he stopped is that, when the nation is in distress, when imports are in excess of exports, there should be economies and that one of the economies we should look for should be in social welfare benefits. His suggestion was that they were too high. It is quite true he stopped just short of saying that, but that is what he implied. I believe that that is where Deputy de Valera's Government made a mistake. I think that too much emphasis was placed by him on our external assets. I believe there is no point in having external assets unless they are to be of some use and unless you can call on them when you need them. I believe that this country in the past two years has been going through a time which was made for the use of external assets and that we did well to draw on them. We did well to finance our economy and keep our standard of living as high as we did keep it.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his Budget and in particular on the continuation of the food subsidies, on the improvements in sick and unemployment benefit, and on giving to a very deserving section of the community, the retired local government officials and retired Government servants of pre-1950 vintage, a token increase in their pensions. We are quite satisfied it is not all they are entitled to, but at least it indicates the goodwill of the Government and of the Minister, when even though he is hard pressed to balance his Budget and finds it necessary to impose taxation, he still spares a few thousand pounds for these people.

I hope that the Minister for Finance will indicate, both to the Minister for Local Government and to the Minister for Health, his wish that they would advise local authorities that similar increases should be granted in the retirement pensions of local authority officials to whom they pay pensions. The Minister might like to know that, at least in my constituency, we have already applied repeatedly for permission to do that but I understand it will have to be given both by the Minister for Health and the Minister for Local Government so as to cover the different sections of people who have retired from local government service.

I think I have pretty well said all I have to say. I welcome—although a motorist myself—the tax on petrol because of the fact that, like cigarettes, petrol is a good source of revenue. On last Tuesday or Tuesday week I remember driving to Dublin to attend the Dáil when I had the misfortune or the good luck—whichever way you look at it—to see the road from Naas to Dublin one solid mass of cars on the left-hand side, all obviously bound for Punchestown. I remember saying to myself that it was a pity that I was not Minister for Finance and I would make a good job of these people. Apparently there is such a thing as thought-transference because the Minister did a good job on petrol and betting, but I am sorry he did not do a little better with the racegoers. I am sure there was not one of them without £10 or £15 to gamble in their pockets.

However, I have little grievance against the Minister and, in fact, the only grievance I have is a strange one. It is that when he put a tax on dancing he did not help a little bit by taking a little more from the cinemas and imposing a slightly increased tax. The dance tax was imposed by Deputy MacEntee and I understand one of the reasons why he discontinued it later on was the difficulty of collection. I think it is pretty true that 80 per cent. of the dance tax will, under the present arrangement, have to be spent in collecting it and that would be unfortunate, but I suppose there is no way out unless the Minister for Finance adopts a suggestion made to me by somebody who is not a member of my Party. That suggestion is that the dance tax could be imposed on the valuation of the dance hall and that each year, when the dance hall was being licensed, the licensee would pay the tax and charge proportionately more to the people to whom he or she rented the dance hall. In that way all, or practically all, of the revenue-would come in straight to the Department. I do not know whether there is wisdom or value in that suggestion, but I am happy about one thing, and that is that we, as Labour Deputies, take responsibility equally with other Deputies for what has been done in this Budget. Equally, as Labour Deputies, we take credit for the fact that the working sections of the people were the principal beneficiaries of the statement made by the Minister on last Tuesday.

Although Deputy Finlay has already spoken in this debate I am allowing him to intervene briefly in order to correct some statistics he gave in the course of his speech.

The position is that I got two sets of figures which were—at least one was—correct, but they were not comparable. I quoted the figure out of a reply to a parliamentary question in regard to the number of civil servants in 1953. That was the correct figure for permanent and temporary civil servants, totalling 37,600 odd in that year. I got a figure for 1955 which, in error, I took, from a reply given in March, 1955, as being the 1955 figure. It was, in fact, a 1954 figure and applied not to the same group but to established and unestablished civil servants and totalled only 33,000. I might inadvertently mislead the House in the two sets of figures which I gave, and I wish to explain that.

It is rather noticeable that no reference was made by the Minister for Finance to this question of the cost of the Civil Service and of the administration. He referred to the increases, but this year, and so far as I recollect, last year, he did not give what was customary in Budget statements, a general statement of the entire cost of the central administration.

Of course, the point of Deputy Finlay's speech was that the number of civil servants has increased. It has undoubtedly increased by many thousands over the years. I have not the latest figures, but I suppose we will have them next week. In any case, the total remuneration of all civil servants in the pre-war period was about £5,000,000 and last year, I think in the reply to which Deputy Finlay has referred, the cost was given as about £15,000,000. Deputy Kyne should really have protested against this House adjourning on the day of the Punchestown meeting and, perhaps, if the Deputy objects so very strongly to people going to Punchestown in cars he will organise brakes or cabs for the next meeting——

I do not mind their going at all.

——so that Deputies will be able to travel in proper style and, instead of supporting the motor industry, support the horse, which is in danger of disappearing.

Or the Lower Prices Council.

We have skis.

The Deputy forgets that Punchestown takes place on only two days a year but cars are in use, even by Deputies, on a great many days of the year. They are in use by hackney drivers, for example, and lorry owners. The Minister for Finance has refused to meet a deputation of the hackney drivers. Does Deputy Kyne suggest that hackney drivers or lorry owners and lorry drivers are in the same position as the people going to Punchestown, in the long lines of cars? He also foresaw what Deputy de Valera was going to say and was able to read his thoughts for us; but he need not depend on what Deputy de Valera was going to say. He can read what the Minister for Social Welfare said at Strasbourg, as reported in the Press, in connection with the question of how far countries should go in providing social services. The Minister for Social Welfare represented the Government there, as well as, I presume, the Labour Party and the Labour movement in this country. Perhaps Deputy Kyne has not seen the statement?

I read it.

It did not seem to get the same publicity as it might have got, had it been made by a Fianna Fáil Minister in Strasbourg. There was a proposal there that there should be a charter for the working people— the "toiling masses", as the Tánaiste used to call them, who were being treated so brutally and savagely by his predecessors in the Government. What did the Minister for Social Welfare say about this workers' charter. He said:—

"The charter would, among other things, oblige Governments to guarantee to their peoples the right to earn a living with a minimum of two weeks' annual holiday with pay."

—I think we had that in this country long before Deputy Corish became Minister—

"adequate food, clothing, housing and free medical care."

And the Minister for Social Welfare said, in opposing the proposition that the Council of Europe ought to accept this charter:—

"The social charter might become just a flourish of rhetoric because it was too ambitious."

Deputy Kyne and his colleagues can take that and interpret it and explain it and say exactly what it means when they go down to their local branches.

What did the Minister say then after that?

That is the effective and important part of what he said. Last year, when the Minister had the opportunity of relieving the plight of the taxpayer, he failed to avail himself of it. It is quite true that he indicated that there was in existence such a person as "John Citizen, taxpayer". The way in which the Minister for Finance in last year's Budget called our attention to the existence of that individual was by allowing him a reduction in his income-tax, through an increase in allowances. The amount came to £100,000. John Citizen had done very well by the Minister for Finance last year; he had served him up with very relishing dishes to the advantage of the National Exchequer which benefited to the extent of nearly £25,000,000 —£24.8 million—and, out of that huge revenue from income-tax, the Minister saw fit to bestow upon the citizen taxpayer the wretched solatium of £100,000.

I am sure, if the Minister enjoyed a meal in any restaurant in Strasbourg, Paris or in Dublin, he would not have offered a waiter such a wretchedly small proportion of the cost of the meal. We have the 10 per cent. service charge, but that 10 per cent. service charge was very far from the Minister's mind when he gave the tip of £100,000 out of £25,000,000 to the income-tax payer last year. He has done better this year. The pourboire amounts to £106,000, although it is estimated that the revenue from income-tax will come to £25.2 million. In the past two years, it has increased by £700,000. We can be quite sure of the £100,000 reduction last year and of £106,000 this year, because we know very precisely what these estimated allowances are going to cost; but we know that the estimated revenue often exceeds, and indeed invariably exceeds, the estimate which is presented to this House, so it may be that the taxpayer will actually contribute more than £25,250,000 to the Exchequer.

The figure which would correspond to that in 1938-39 was, I think, £5.8 million. However, that is not the end of the story. Slimming is very fashionable and I suppose the Minister for Finance has been reading the fashionable periodicals and has decided to give John Citizen a really good course in slimming and reduce his condition. The taxpayer must get his weight right down in earnest on this occasion; he is really getting out of hand, becoming a nuisance to the Minister for Finance and the Government, and he will have to be taught that his good health depends upon abstinence, moderation, doing without the things he would like to have and he is accustomed to having, but which the Government, knowing better, are quite sure are the worst possible things for his good health. His financial avoirdupois, as they might put it, is being reduced very substantially again this year because there is additional expenditure to be met.

Leaving out motor vehicle duties, the Minister has informed us that estimated expenditure is over £8,000,000 higher as compared with last year's actual expenditure; and to meet this, after certain allowances have been deducted, extra taxation is to bring in about £5.3 million, making net revenue from taxation almost £94,500,000. That is equivalent to 21 per cent. of the total national income last year, leaving aside altogether the estimated revenue of £3,000,000 from the import levies and the £5,750,000 from motor vehicle duties, not to speak of the £18,000,000 for rates and £5,250,000 for contributions to State insurance by employees and employers respectively.

The taxpayer, therefore, may take in his belt a couple of inches. But it is not merely that his financial girth is likely to be decreased or slimmed down to the appropriate proportions, but, in fact, it looks as if the position is that, so long as there is any flesh left on his bones, even when the bones themselves become visible, the Government and the Minister for Finance will not desist from collecting more and more from him.

The Minister has told us that the full impact of the increases in remuneration will only be felt this year; it is only during the present year that employers will have to foot the complete bill in respect of increases in wages and salaries granted last year. We do not know yet what else may be in store for these employers or for the State. We do know, however, that in the past the estimates of State expenditure in regard to labour always had to show a considerable margin for increased expenditure, which, in my experience and in the experience, I dare say, of the present Ministers, always went beyond the estimate as drawn up at the beginning of the year, because of increases in wages in the ensuing period, increases that could not be foreseen and could only be guessed at.

Now the price of coal is to go up. Freight charges to Britain are to go up. Transport charges are likely to go up here. Raw materials and the cost of imports generally, as well as coal, are likely to increase. The Minister has told us that there is likely to be no change in the situation, so far as the terms of trade are concerned. The trend of prices in the international market indicates that those who have to import raw materials or primary commodities will very likely be faced with increased costs in doing so. It is in these conditions, then, that the taxpayer, and particularly the taxpayer who is also a producer, will have to pay more for his postage, for his petrol and for his cigarettes. These are the incentives which the Government proposes for the producer, at a time when increasing costs are pressing upon him with greater severity. The well-managed business may be able to bear these imports. It may be able to pass the burden on in due course to the consumer. But what of the smaller business, the average business, the family business? Will it be in a position to pass on the imposts to the consumer? What will be the position of that business now under the credit squeeze which, we are told, is in operation? What of the additional labour and the other costs that business has to bear at the present time, finding it difficult and, in fact, impossible in many cases to make ends meet? The owner of the small business, the small employer, the individual producer working for himself gets no recognition whatsoever from the Government and no gesture in the way of reduced taxation.

When the Minister spoke last year of the changed conditions and the possibility that this year might not be even as good, he should have foreseen that circumstances were tending to move against us, from the economic point of view. He saw certain unfavourable factors appearing on the horizon and he should then, I think, have taken his courage in his hands and given a reduction in income-tax, since that would have been the greatest incentive he could offer to production and investment. Charity begins at home. The Government announced with a great flourish of trumpets the reliefs in taxation available to foreign industry, but their callous and cold-blooded indifference to the plight of the individual taxpayer, and particularly to the plight of the producer, is in violent contrast to their interest in, encouragement of and invitation to foreign entrepreneurs in our midst.

It has often been said that the eyes of the fool are on the ends of the earth. While Ministers have been inviting foreigners into this country to develop it, to take out of it, as they have done in other hitherto undeveloped countries, at the price of a royalty to the people or the Government of the community in question, the mineral resources, the natural wealth of the country—and they are permitted to do that without paying any taxation, left entirely free from contributing to our Exchequer—and while, on the other hand, for two successive years, the Minister can refuse to acknowledge the existence of the ordinary Irish taxpaying citizen, treat him with absolute contempt and indifference, surely, all that should give people food for thought.

They will be a long time catching up on Ranks, will they not?

There is no magic formula now for balancing the Budget. The present Government had a wonderful formula at one time. They would increase production to such an extent that, upon the proceeds of the increased yield from taxation at the current rate, they would not alone be able to finance the existing services but they would be able to bring in new services at the same time. They could accomplish all that, because they would eliminate extravagance.

At column 1411, Volume 150 of the Official Report the Taoiseach said, speaking on the Budget last year:—

"We will eliminate extravagance. So far as possible we will cut public expenditure and by a suitable production policy, and not just mere talk about production, we will bring about a situation whereby the national income will be increased and the real wealth of the country will be increased."

That was the Taoiseach last year. I am afraid events have rather falsified his declaration and anticipations. The Minister has made up his mind that he must show a surplus this year. It would really be unkind to refer to what the Minister said in 1952 when his predecessor, now on this side of the House, announced the measures which he found it necessary to take to balance the Budget and try to effect a surplus in that year.

At column 271, Volume 150, the present Minister for Finance advanced a most interesting theory. Unnecessary taxation, he said, was being imposed for the purpose of enabling the Government to remain in power for a further 12 months, and at the end of that time they would remove that taxation, show that they had a surplus, and hope that the public memory was short. I hope that no such extraordinary ideas have occurred to the Minister for Finance in preparing his present taxation and Budget proposals.

It went wrong, did it not?

He has pointed to the much increased costs of the Government's services, particularly of a nonproductive and recurring character, constituting a permanent liability on the taxpayer. The pay increase amounted to £2,500,000 without any countervailing economies whatever. They all mount up, and one wonders whether the democratic system itself can survive, or will be in a position to survive, these constantly increasing burdens which political exigencies, rather than any economic or moral consideration, are forcing it to bear. Many well-informed, well-disposed persons believe that a crash can scarcely be avoided in the long run, there are so many reapers and such a lamentable shortage of sowers. We ask the Minister for Finance where is the money going to come from, or at what point the Government will come to decide that a halt must be called and that they will make an announcement that there will be no further increases in the cost of the central administration? When, where and how are the Government likely to come to a decision on that? How soon are we likely to get a declaration from the Minister for Finance and the Government in that matter?

Nobody will grudge the increases to pensioners, but it is no harm looking at the superannuation, as only one side of the Government's accounts, a side that is not often referred to. The reason I mention it is because when we had difficulties about the superannuation for teachers and it was found that the teachers' pension fund was entirely inadequate to meet the increases that had been granted and the question arose how the deficit was to be met, of course the whole burden had to be transferred from the fund to the yearly Estimates, the Supply Services. It was pointed out in this House at the time that the existence of such funds as the teachers' pension fund or any other funds which were set aside specifically as a hypothecation against the ever-increasing charges, now very much greater than could be imagined at that time, served a very valuable purpose, and that it was not alone unwise but perhaps had an element of danger for the State, and particularly for the Minister for Finance who has to find the money, that the whole dead weight of the superannuation should fall directly upon the Supply Services.

This year, in any event, it is no harm to glance at the various headings. We have Civil Service, £955,000; Posts and Telegraphs, £450,000; Garda, £515,000; Teachers, £643,000; Army Pensions Vote, £1,630,000, and the Old Age Pensions Vote, which is in a somewhat different category, £10,310,000. If we regard the last item for the moment as being part of the superannuation bill, so to speak, we get a grand total of £14,500,000.

I may be asked what is the remedy to meet this mounting cost of superannuation. There is no remedy in so far as cutting shorter the lives of superannuitants is concerned. They continue to live longer and longer, God bless them, and I hope that in the time to come their health and years will continue. But at any rate, one might be permitted to suggest that one way to keep the bill both for administration and superannuation in check and in balance would be to reduce the permitted increases in the establishment. The Minister has not stated that he is going to do that. He is going to set up a committee of secretaries to go into the question of reorganisation and economies resulting therefrom. If there are no increases, and we reach a position of stability, we may ultimately, with goodwill, reach a position where the staffs on the administration side might be more comparable to the numbers employed on similar work in private concerns.

The Minister has emphasised the danger of increasing costs threatening the maintenance of our existing exports and hampering the development of new exports. He informed us that the imperative need for stability in our present difficulties and economic circumstances is becoming more widely accepted. If this fundamental need, which he so rightly stressed, is becoming clearly understood by those who are most intimately concerned that is, indeed, welcome news. But, if the need is not more widely accepted, why not let the Dáil and the country into the secret?

Why has the Taoiseach not been able to give us some information as to the result of the discussions between the Ministers and the representatives of the trade unions? Is it that it was not possible to issue even an agreed statement, which, really, as everyone knows, amounts to very little but at least gives the public information that certain topics were discussed? I am sure it was not the state of their health, or the very fine weather we have been having which is not so very helpful to the farmers, that these gentlemen discussed. They must surely have discussed problems arising out of the Budget and, in particular, the problem of increasing costs and the necessity for keeping down consumption and increasing savings and investment, emphasised throughout his statement by the Minister for Finance. Perhaps, the position is that the unions did not accept the Government's expressed view regarding the need for stability. If that is so the Minister's statement that it is being more widely accepted is rather wide of the mark. Perhaps the representatives of the trade unions detect a certain inconsistency—and not for the first time— between the Government's professed aims and the steps they are taking, to carry these into effect.

The terms of trade are not moving in our favour the Minister said. Every rise in world prices increases our trade deficit. The paramount necessity for greatly increased savings and investment is clearly causing the Minister and the Government concern. But they are not able to give the country any information and the leaders of the unions have not seen fit to give the country any information as to what their attitude in this matter is, although, as has been already mentioned this afternoon, negotiations have been officially on foot between the employers and the unions for some time past.

The Minister says the co-operation of the citizens is necessary. Undoubtedly it is necessary that the citizens should understand the position but when he talks about costs and the dangers of pricing ourselves out of the markets, to which we have access at the present time, is it not very necessary and of the highest importance that the co-operation of the unions should be sought and obtained? Is there any reason why these matters should be kept secret? Are they not matters of public importance? If we have strikes, if we have industrial troubles, we hear all about it very quickly in a very unpleasant way at times. In this case, the Taoiseach apparently has nothing to report. Is it then that there is no co-operation forthcoming on that side?

The Taoiseach was full of confidence last year. He was brimming over with fine sentiments and good intentions. Our first job, he said, was to restore confidence to the people, to restore confidence in the economic conditions existing here, and, having restored confidence, the other things would come in time, with good government and a good policy.

What is the reference?

Column 1400, Volume 150. From the gloomy picture that the Minister for Finance has painted, it does not look as if the Taoiseach was in close contact with existing conditions, or with the trends of events, when he told us that they had restored confidence in the economic conditions of this country last year, or if they had it was certainly very short-lived, as the circumstances referred to by the Minister regarding the raising of money for our State capital programmes have indicated. These pious expressions of belief, these platitudes to which we are so accustomed are not likely to solve any of our problems. The country needs leadership. It needs not only realistic appraisal of the difficulties but realistic remedies applied to them. Of what use is the diagnosis of our economic ills or of what purpose are the prescriptions if the remedies are inadequate, or if the remedies that are necessary are not applied?

I think we can agree with the Minister that there is a psychological problem—this problem I referred to a few moments ago—of getting the co-operation, the interest and the goodwill of the parties that determine the levels of costs in this country, for example, and that by their actions now will determine what our position will be in two or three years' time, when it may, if the proper steps are not now taken, become much more difficult even than is the case at present. I believe it is here the Government has failed and I fear must fail.

As Deputy de Valera said, they demoralised a great number of common-sense working people in this country a few years ago when they spoke of a scare crisis, a scare situation that the Government had then created. When the Government, as the authority responsible in this country for the time being, says there is a serious situation it ought to be accepted and it is accepted on this side of the House. As Deputy de Valera has pointed out it was not accepted a few years ago.

The result is that the Government has failed to give the country any sense of urgency in regard to this matter. There is nothing they have done that has sought to bring home to the people in a vivid and impressive manner that the situation is serious. The only way obviously the people can be got to believe it is serious is by seeing the Government bestir itself and taking the necessary action. If the people are to believe that the situation is grave and if their support is to be enlisted in a convincing way surely it is for the Government, when asking them to carry out its wishes, and to co-operate in the important matter of economising and saving, to give the good example itself at the top.

Precepts will certainly be more effective if they are followed up by example—by being put into practice. A recent publication of the Dutch Government, circulated to Deputies, stated that the total investment outlay in Holland this year represents the equivalent of one fourth of the total domestic expenditure of that country. Our savings in 1955 amounted to less than 6 per cent. of our national income. Personal savings amounted to only 4 per cent. or to two-thirds of all our savings. There are other agencies as well as the hire purchase organisations competing with the Government and attracting personal expenditure to an increasing degree.

The Minister has not given us the items regarding personal consumption in this State so that the public would be in a position to judge what amounts of money are being spent and in what directions. It is a considerable time since the Director of the Statistics Branch called attention to the necessity for getting information regarding the amount of our investments. I suggest that in his concluding statement the Minister should try to give the country more information, particularly as regards the first item I have mentioned. We have been living as a community upon past savings and drawing upon these at a greater rate. Instead of replenishing our resources, we are steadily consuming or reducing them. This cannot continue for long.

It is quite evident that the boom conditions in the United States and elsewhere will have the effect of raising our import prices still further. To finance our trade, therefore, we require greater reserves. There is a danger line below which we cannot afford to go, because, if we do, we will suffer, and it may be years before the position can be recovered. The position may arise then that, in the circumstances in which this country has been unfortunately placed for the past few years, and perhaps will be for the future, national policy in these important matters can be determined, not by a majority, in effect, of the elected representatives, but by a minority. It may take only a few years, if we were to allow the position to occur, and we have got very near it, for us to become a debtor country.

We surely must not allow the situation to arise, 40 years after 1916, in which this country will not only not be able to pay its way either on its current or its capital accounts, but in which we would be reduced to the position of the beggar, going to barter our independence and certainly our economic future to try to raise loans and almost certainly failing to raise them in foreign markets.

It is a poor ghost story.

It is not a poor ghost story. The present Minister for Agriculture was able to tell us very eloquently about it a few years ago. We know what happened to New Zealand when she had to go begging to the London stock market. The Minister for Agriculture was able to tell us what happened to Newfoundland. Does the Parliamentary Secretary consider that our economic position is so strong that we can afford to neglect these things, having regard to the situation that the Minister for Finance has told us has developed since last summer? That is just a few short months ago and the situation has developed after all the promises and the delightful anticipations of the Taoiseach and of other members of the Government Party 12 months previously. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary knows these situations can develop very rapidly and that our economy, as is admitted in the Budget statement, is more prone to injury by sudden changes in the world outside than it ever was before.

It is surely a commonplace that the more we depart from the natural economy to which we were accustomed in this country, to enter into the new modern economy, the more exposed we will be. We can do nothing to improve our export prices, but we can at least concentrate on reducing costs and on improving the quality, as well as increasing the output. The Government has failed lamentably to give a lead in these matters.

I want to say, in conclusion, it has been well said by a very distinguished man that the continued progress in technical efficiency is the dominating factor in the growth of real national income. First things should certainly come first, and surely the training of our skilled workers, through an expansion of technical education and an improvement of our apprenticeship system, is entitled to high priority on the State programme of capital development. The British Government recently issued a White Paper on technical education which shows that since the war they have increased their number of graduates or highly skilled technological workers. I understand that the Government have had their attention called to this matter by the representatives of science, by the universities and the technological institutions in this country. I think they would be well advised, as a first step, to do their share to try to keep abreast of present day developments by setting up a national advisory body to make recommendations on technological training appropriate to present-day conditions.

The whole trend of the Budget debate seems to have centred on the balance of payments. Before I direct a few words to that aspect of the matter, I should like to say that, no matter what political points are made here, no matter how one wants to shirk the issue, the fact remains that we have just had a year of rising costs and that this Government has had to honour its obligations to its servants, whether they be the ordinary postman, the Civic Guard or the higher civil servant. The Government have met these obligations and have had their difficulties in meeting them, just as the small employer or the large employer, the farmer and the shopkeeper have had their difficulties in meeting what has been to them a year of increased costs and increased labour remuneration.

It is easy to decry increased wages and it is just as easy to do the other thing and claim credit for it. This situation has developed largely as a result of economic trends all over the world and there was not a thing anybody could do about it. The Minister has to balance his Budget, just as the ordinary businessman has to balance his budget. The extra load that had to be placed on the community was inevitable, and the Minister must be congratulated on having succeeded, by such hard work and drive, in cutting that load to the minimum.

I am quite sure there are some decent men who have to use a car every day in their lives, who also smoke cigirettes and who will be hard hit by this Budget. It is reasonable that, in a year of rising costs, there would be some people hard hit. I think that, taking all things in their proper perspective, there has, in fact, been a storm but we have weathered it very well. Great thanks are due to the Minister for Finance for the great job he has done in helping us to weather that storm.

With regard to the balance of payments, it is easy to say what were the difficulties in years gone by and to say that the balance of payments problem in 1952 caused the 1952 Budget, which was a great blow to the country and the ordinary individual. I do not propose to say that. If we have got a balance of payments problem we have got to do our best to end it. The Minister, by imposing a levy on 58 articles of import, and by restricting hire purchase which, in my opinion, should have been restricted years ago, has sought to grapple with the balance of payments problem at its root. It is the simplest thing in the world to cure that problem with a sledge hammer. All you have to do is to decrease the purchasing power of the people because the things they purchase will contain, in a great measure, articles from abroad. If you reduced their purchasing power, you would be taking a great step towards dealing with the balance of payments.

I might say that there was a balance of payments problem in 1952 and that the gentlemen at the other side of the House dealt with it in no uncertain manner. I shall not say that. The two situations are entirely different. I am saying that in 1952 a serious mistake was made but then the situation was different. We have now a balance of payments problem and the necessity exists to deal with it. I think the Minister has dealt with it in a gentle, kind and humane way. I suppose that in 1952 we had an even greater problem but we should not forget that, since 1948, 42,000 houses were built in this country. This means, that if you take an average family of five people, practically one in ten is now housed in a new building. When you consider that, and the colossal expenditure that resulted from it, when you consider the land reclamation scheme and all the capital expenditure there has been for the past couple of years is it unreasonable that we should have a balance of payments problem?

We, on both sides of the House, have approached that problem in two different ways and I think our way is the better. I think the country as a whole realises that it is the better way and that there is not, in the country, any resentment to the present Budget.

As usual, the Fianna Fáil Party seems to be divided into two diametrically opposed sections on this matter. You have those who have stood up and declared that this is a terribly hard Budget. Then Deputy de Valera himself said here: "It is better that we should have these hardships now lest there be greater hardships later on". Following on that he said: "We will not make any good by half measures". Is Deputy de Valera following on the same line of thought as did Deputy MacEntee when he spoke on the import levies not more than a few weeks ago and described what he called the Sweetman squeeze as being too soft, too gentle and quite like the kiss of a maiden? Then he said that this squeeze, this kiss of a maiden, would be the kiss of death to the Irish hound. Does that mean that Fianna Fáil would still deal with the balance of payments problem as they did in 1952? Does it mean, as Deputy de Valera said, that we cannot make good by half measures?

I believe that our Minister for Finance has approached the matter reasonably, that he does realise that it is quite hard for people to live in this country, that he realises that things are difficult for many of us and that for those reasons he approached the problem in a proper manner. No matter how anybody at the far side of the House may seek to influence public opinion and to cause a scared feeling in the country, the fact remains that the people realise that this Government is prepared to approach its problems in a humane manner and to put the burden where it can best be carried. That fact is appreciated by the people and will be appreciated by them no matter what is being done to undermine the work of the Government.

Deputy de Valera's line seemed to be that the Government was seeking to cure its problems by effecting a reduction in consumption, as distinct from, and opposed to, an increase in production. Nothing could be further from the truth. Deputy Derrig said that the eyes of a fool were on the ends of the earth and, without saying it, he implied that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should not have tried to bring in foreign industrialists. He criticised the agreement with regard to the Avoca mines and said it was not right that these people should be exempt from income-tax, as it is generally known. That is complete dishonesty.

Everybody knows that, in the case of the Avoca mines, all that is being allowed is that if these people work the mines, sink the shafts and produce a first class mine in Avoca, the capital expenditure involved, in sinking the shafts and working underground before the production stage is reached, may be charged up against the profits for a few years only. In every other country in the world, the position is that it is not allowable to charge up the work on shafts and the making of the new mine faces. How are you going to attract these people if you do not allow them to charge up initial expenditure against profits for a year or so? It is dishonest to suggest that something is being given to foreign industrialists that should not be given to them.

To get back to the question of whether or not the Government is approaching the problem of our balance of payments from the point of view of increase in production or reduction in consumption, it is obvious that every effort has been made in the industrial sphere to increase production. Our Minister has gone abroad and has made every effort to attract all the foreign industrialists he could to our shores. At the same time he told our friends and neighbours, the British, that if they gave him a list of industrialists as long as his arm who wished to come to this country, every one of them would be facilitated to the greatest extent possible. It is irrefutable that all the steps possible have been taken by this Government towards increasing production in industry and also agriculture.

Deputy de Valera made great play about the fact that we are importing £12,000,000 worth of all sorts of grains. What he was trying to convey was that this Government was not encouraging the growing of wheat and the growing of grains. We must be flexible enough in our minds to realise that up to two years ago nobody conceived a situation where enough wheat, for instance, could be grown in this country to meet our needs. The first people to wake up to that situation were the Fianna Fáil Government and in January, 1954, they set about deciding how much wheat they would have in the harvest and how much we would eat and they discovered what was quite correct, that they had too much wheat. Having reached that situation, we must now approach the consideration of grains not on the basis of wheat alone but on the basis of wheat, oats and barley and if you like to include the root crops like beet also.

I do not think we shall ever come to the stage when we can profitably export grain from this country because of the fact that we have certain extra costs in drying which the exporting countries largely do not have to meet. We have succeeded in growing as much of one type of grain as we can eat and we must now approach the whole thing from a different line. We must create a market for our oats and barley up to the level of tillage that we feel we can carry in a proper rotation. No Government has done more to create that market than the present Government. We depend largely on our market for cattle, pigs, poultry and our animals all round. We must increase the number of cattle. What Government has tried to do more than the present Government has done? Which was the first Government to make a cattle agreement with Britain? Who finalised that agreement not so long ago which gave us the opportunity of selling our cattle at a fair price to Britain for the next three years?

If the members of the Opposition would join us in this glorious effort to try to give the farmers of Ireland that feeling of stability and to convince them that if they will rear their calves and sell them as late in life as possible off their farms, depending on their type of husbandry, and that there is a profit assured for them, we could make wonderful progress. I think this Government is the Government which, through its Minister for Agriculture and all its Ministers, have sought to create a feeling of stability and that the gentlemen on the far side of the House are the people who have sought to create a feeling of instability.

It is absolutely necessary that we increase our level of live stock, of pigs and poultry, for the reason that we have now reached the situation where we have grown as much wheat as we can eat and we must now if we wish to increase our grain acreage, make a market for coarse grain which, admittedly, does exist at the moment for the imported article. But if we wish to do that, we must increase our livestock and this Government is the Government that has always tried to lead the people to believe that by their arrangements it was possible to get profit from livestock, from pigs and from poultry. For the last 12 months, the gentlemen on the far side of the House have sought at every possible opportunity to make the people believe that there was not a profit any longer.

Finally, I would like to congratulate the Minister on the fact that so many things which have been so heavily taxed before have escaped when the need was very great for balancing our Budget this year and balancing it completely without borrowing. He said himself in the first few lines of his speech:—

"Borrowing in the present situation would be indefensible."

I am glad that he has imposed no further taxation on beer, wine and spirits. It is now accepted all over the world, that the working man, the businessman or any other man is entitled to a measure of beer and of tobacco without exceeding certain limits. In my opinion the temptation must have been very great on the Minister to place some extra taxation on beer or on spirits. I congratulate him on the fact that he saw the situation in the proper light and placed the taxation so as to gear the Budget to cure as far as possible the balance of payments problem and to aid the levies which were imposed and the hire-purchase restrictions in this regard.

There has been a great deal of criticism from the far side of the House about the fact that the Minister imposed a very small tax on mineral waters. I suppose in the first instance tax on alcohol and alcoholic refreshments was imposed because they were not respectable. That might seem contradictory but when a Minister looks around for new and fresh taxation, he likes to think there are forces in the country which will stand behind him when he makes the unpopular choice. Years ago when taxation was first imposed on alcohol probably the reason was that it was not respectable. But I think the situation has now developed where the excessive drinking or anything else like that that was supposed to have been a feature of our Irish life has largely disappeared. Therefore, I do not see any reason to criticise the Minister, when he is imposing necessary taxes, for putting a small tax on mineral waters.

Taking 1936 as base 100, one finds that, by 1952, the consumption of mineral waters had increased to 326. That represents an extraordinarily large consumption and nobody need tell me that that was accounted for by increased consumption of minerals by children. Most of it, 90 per cent. at least, was made up of mineral waters served to non-drinkers in public houses and restaurants. If money has to be got, the people who consume mineral waters are getting off very lightly and the Minister was kind and gentle to them.

I would recommend that, in future Budgets, if there must be additional taxation, the Minister should approach the whole question of drinks taken in restaurants and bars, from the point of view that the taxation on mineral waters is extraordinarily low and the taxation on alcoholic drinks extraordinarily high. A bottle of ginger ale contains water, imported essence and a little sugar. There is very little labour content in its production. In the case of a bottle of beer or a bottle of stout manufactured in this country, the labour content is very high, from the moment the barley of which it is made is reaped until it is malted and brewed, and the barley helps the Irish farmer.

France and many other countries had to tax mineral waters to solve difficulties with regard to the production of wine. In order that the economic structure of the drink trade should remain sound it may be necessary in the future to tax mineral waters, even for the purpose of removing some of the tax on alcoholic drinks. There is no real reason why a home product, which is not harmful, if not taken in excess, should be taxed to the hilt, when an imported product, which has not nearly the same labour content, even if processed in this country, is left untaxed. The Minister's approach to this problem was the right approach and, as a publican, I laud and thank him for it.

There were two roads open to the Minister when he started to prepare this Budget and I was wondering which road he would take. I wondered whether it would be "A dearly beloved brethren" Budget, which would mean that we would all go to the chapel gates and start off for a general election or a "You can all go somewhere else" Budget. It was the "go somewhere else" one that we got.

I have endeavoured to see if we must be always begging, to see must we, year after year, borrow more to keep this little bit of an island afloat. I suggest to the Minister for Finance that the time of the Parliamentary Secretary, the financial adviser to the Government, would be much better spent, if he were appointed to examine each Department in turn, with a view to getting rid of the surplus stock that is in them. I have put down a parliamentary question about the number of civil servants employed, but the answer will not be given until to-morrow. Some time ago, I got the figures for the number of civil servants employed in the height of the emergency, when everything was rationed, when there were 2,000 men and women in Ballsbridge working on coupons and ration books. To my amazement, I discovered that four years after all that was over, there was an increase of some 4,700 civil servants. What are they doing? Can anyone tell me?

The same unfortunate situation has developed in local authorities since the management system was introduced. Where there used to be one clerk in any special department, he has become a staff officer and he has about 25 clerks dodging around him, all on nonproductive work. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that, if he gets the job I have suggested, I will give him a hand in it for nothing. It would be worth it. Let us cut down our overheads.

I thought something like that was intended from the statements issued prior to the election:—

"We will eliminate extravagance. We will cut public expenditure and by a suitable production policy—not just talk about production—we will bring about a situation whereby the national income will be increased and the real wealth of the country will be increased."

When you ask people to save to-day, what is the first thing they will say?—"For whom shall I save? Is it so that I can lend it to the Government to have a spree?"

I would not mind if civil servants had not got a lesson before. I sought information as to how many increases civil servants had got under an alleged cost-of-living bonus system. Unfortunately, that question, also, will not be answered until to-morrow, but I would suggest to Deputies that it would be well worth their while to take the replies to those questions when they are given by the Minister to-morrow and to examine them and see what is happening.

This country cannot afford to be in the position indicated in the reply given to me this evening by the Minister for Finance, namely, that, in 1956, before you find anything at all to run this country, you must find a dead load of taxation of £13,000,000 odd a year to pay the interest on what has been borrowed to finance the public debt. It is a very interesting figure and the figures for previous years are still more interesting.

It is not quite right, you know. There is some income to put against it.

I have great pleasure in explaining it here in the presence of the financial genius of the Government. I put down a question here on 23rd April, 1952, to the then Minister for Finance. I asked the Minister if he would state the total amount paid and payable in interest and sinking fund in 1947-48 and in 1952-53. 1947-48 was the year the boys came in; 1952-53 was the year they left.

I thought they left in 1951.

I got the answer, and here it is. In 1947-48, the borrowing for interest was £3,095,714 and for sinking funds, etc., £1,128,620, a total of £4,224,334. In 1952-53, the sum for interest was £7,354,700 and for sinking fund, £2,725,700. The total in that year was £10,080,400. That represented over £6,000,000 of a jump, of a dead load debt on this country that had to be found every year by whatever Government was in power. That has now jumped to over £13,000,000— £3,000,000 a year more. I was anxious to know who did the job. I asked the Minister the total amount of State borrowings in each of the years 1947-48 to 1951-52 inclusive and in the years 1932-33 to 1947-48 inclusive.

The 1923-24 figure is good, is it not? Would you give us the figure for that year?

I am giving what I got. I was anxious to know how much was borrowed by Cumann na nGaedheal, as they were then.

The Deputy got the figure for 1923-24. Would he not give it to us?

The Deputy did not.

With all respect to the Deputy, I have a copy of the reply given on 6th July, 1954. It is in the form of a tabulated statement and it gives the figure for 1923-24.

Not here. I will read the whole lot of it. It is given in Volume 131, column 167 of the Official Report.

Could I help the Deputy?

The Deputy is well able to help himself. All the help the Parliamentary Secretary needs is a sucking bottle and he might put a little drop of that gripe water in it to help him out.

£10,281,000 for 1923-24.

During the years 1923-24 to 1931-32 inclusive, the amount borrowed totalled £29,326,800. From 1932-33 to 1947-48 inclusive, the amount borrowed was £51,316,400. The figures for the period 1932-33 to 1947-48 include the following loans for special purposes: £10,000,000 3¾ per cent. Financial Agreement Loan. This loan was issued in May, 1938, to provide the funds required for the settlement of the dispute which arose out of the Secret Financial Agreement of 1923; £7,000,000 4 per cent. Exchequer Bonds. This issue was made in December, 1939, for the purpose of meeting the abnormal expenditure on national defence necessitated by the outbreak of war in Europe in September, 1939; and £7,920,000 3¼ per cent. National Security Loan issued in November, 1941, to provide further funds for national defence. These abnormal items, the Minister said in his reply to my question, totalled £24,920,000.

The purposes for which the loans were raised hardly influences the provisions of the Budget.

I do not think they do. The Deputy may quote the figures only.

The State is still paying.

I am not objecting to the Deputy quoting relevant figures.

Right. Now, we come to the later date and I should like to call the particular attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the fact that out of a total of £51,000,000, £24,000,000 had to be raised for a very definite purpose. In 1947-48, we borrowed £5,400,500; in 1948-49, we borrowed £8,951,500; in 1949-50, the figure was £20,539,000; in 1950-51, £21,686,000; and in 1951-52, £38,938,900. That is a pretty hefty sum for a spree. It is a pretty good sum for the running of a country for three years.

Particularly the last year the Deputy read out. It was nearly double the amount for the other years.

To clean up the mess.

I think the Deputy is suggesting that Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Finance in 1951-52. That is a most outrageous untruth.

If a man is in politics, he has got to take political representations and criticisms.

I am giving the facts. If we had to borrow £38,000,000, it was borrowed to clean up the mess that was made in Deputy McGilligan's time.

£39,000,000.

Poke away at it now and you will learn a lot more before I finish with you.

The Deputy must address the Chair.

Would the Deputy give us the figures he got to-day?

If the Parliamentary Secretary supervised them, surely he knows them.

He would not understand them.

The figures I got to-day may be pretty low, because the people would not give the money to you.

I thought the Deputy might want to finish.

I am just looking for the figures which are as follows:—1952-53, £31,952,000; 1953-54, £32,929,000; 1954-55, £29,600,000; and 1955-56, £23,408,000. The last figure is only £23,000,000 because you could not get any more, unless you got it from the Jews.

The Deputy must address the Chair.

They borrowed from everyone else, and the fact is that the interest and sinking fund have increased from £2,420,000 interest and £1,620,000 sinking fund, totalling roughly £4,000,000, in 1947-48, to £8,808,631 for interest and £4,386,459 for sinking fund, a total of £13,000,000 a year of deadweight on the people of this nation that must be found by whatever Government comes in to clean up the new mess. They will have to find that money each year.

I remember being down in County Waterford at a by-election and I had to explain this matter to the people, and I had to explain that both Parties agreed that this money had to be borrowed, but that there was a difference of opinion as to how it was to be paid back. We believed it would have to be raised—as the Minister apparently has decided to try to raise it this year —by taxation, and the boys over there believed that they should borrow again to pay the interest on what they had borrowed already——

The Deputy must not refer to Deputies in such a manner.

The Deputies opposite, Sir, if that will do. That was the difference, and this nation now finds itself faced, not alone with that debt, but with a borrowing every year of £20,000,000 or £30,000,000 to keep this bit of an island afloat. And for what? Who is it being borrowed for and who is getting it? I had hoped that, when speaking here to-day, I would have the figures of the cost of the Civil Service in 1948 and the cost to-day. They should be very enlightening. Deputies will have them to-morrow at 3 o'clock and I hope they will enjoy them. They can have a look at them. That is the most alarming position as far as I can see it. Now, we have another line-up on the other side of this. We have a line-up of the gentlemen who say the farmers are getting off soft; that they are paying nothing; that they do not even pay income-tax. That is the general opinion, mark you, among a large number of ill-informed individuals in this country.

Whatever statement was made here and whatever statement was made by any individual Minister or Deputy about taxation lying lightly on the land, it was the gentlemen opposite who were the people who worked on it and worked on it very well. They started off the job by taxing the farmer who tills his land. He is the first fellow they made for and they said: "For every barrel of wheat you will produce on that land, you will pay us a tax of 12/6". And they did that. They collected from the farmers in that manner last year over £1,700,000, in taxation on wheat. That was collected, or paid for, just the very same as if it was an order left with the miller that, on every barrel of wheat that came in, 12/6 must be collected. Every barrel of wheat brought into a mill last year was taxed to the extent of 12/6. We produce a ton of wheat to the acre. and, on our 350,000 acres under wheat. we paid £1,700,000 in taxation.

The Minister for Agriculture is very fond of telling us to feed calves and I heard Deputy Donegan a while ago speaking very fluently on that, but Deputy Donegan forgot to tell this House that that Minister for Agriculture taxed feeding barley to the extent of £4 a ton, and he collected from the farmers who grew it last year £1,200,000. He collected it in a more contemptible way still when he used that cheap barley for the purpose of taxing the pig feeders whom he taxed to the extent of £617,000.

This argument would have been more relevant to the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

I am dealing with statements made by Deputy Donegan on this matter. Those are the facts. How can Deputies opposite expect to have more production, or to get rid of the adverse trade balance, when that is the manner in which this Government deals with the man who endeavours to produce more, the man who tills his land? When Deputy Donegan says that 360,000 acres just grew all the wheat that was required here, what was done with the 129,000 extra acres of wheat grown the year before? Was any of it exported? Where did it go?

Does the Government consider it a wise policy, if they can buy foreign wheat as they say, for £26 a ton, to pile up an adverse trade balance by bringing it in? Where, in the name of heavens, did they get the economic policy of importing foreign pollard and foreign bran at £27 per ton as it is to-day? Every jump in the foreign bran and pollard coming into this country is welcomed by the people over there, because every pound it goes up means that they are getting an extra pound on the bran and pollard produced in this country—an extra pound tax on the pig feeder, whom they expect to go on producing more pigs and to whom they have appealed to increase their production of pigs. How is he to increase production? Is it any wonder that 20 per cent. of the sows have disappeared out of this country in the past 12 months? Was that the increased production? Is there any wonder that we had 155,000 pigs disappearing?

Where is the use in talking about increased production, if you are going to tax the man who produces? On those three items alone, the Irish farmer was taxed last year to the extent of some £3,000,000 odd. That taxation was deliberately put on his back by the Government; and then we had gentlemen saying that the farmer pays no income-tax. Something around £617,000 on the fellow producing pigs was a fairly good income-tax, and this was collected in order to reduce the flour subsidy, and £1,700,000 of a tax on the man who dares to grow wheat in this country was a pretty hefty tax, too.

If Deputies think this is not having an effect in other directions, I will tell them that I happened to meet last week one of the directors of Messrs. Gouldings. He was complaining that his sales had gone down by some thousand of tons, and I told him that I would tell him exactly how much they had dropped. I said:—

"You are producing about three-quarters of the artificial fertilisers used by the farmers of this country and you have dropped about 30,000 tons."

He told me:—

"You are not very far out; we have dropped nearly that much. How did you find it out?"

There are 80,000 odd acres of land gone out of tillage in this country and that is where the artificial manure was going. That is going to have a reaction and a pretty serious reaction on labour——

They were charging too much for it; that is what was wrong with Gouldings.

If the Deputy had been decent enough to come with me the day I went up to try to stop them from getting any more, we might have got somewhere. There is no use growling about it in here, unless you act outside. I had to go up before the Prices Tribunal and give evidence on that matter.

That is where the Deputy made a political speech.

Do you consider it a political speech to point out the manner in which the backward section, as they used to call the agricultural community, had advanced——

I heard all about the line the Deputy took there.

The Deputy heard about it, but the Deputy did not come.

This does not arise on the Financial Resolution.

I am just stating what has happened and what is happening in this country. It is going to mean a dearth of employment and a drop in employment in this country. If those people drop 30,000 tons of fertiliser, it will mean less employment, less transport and it is going to hit all around. The same thing happened as regards beet. We have dropped 18,000 acres of beet in 12 months.

The Deputy seems to be discussing agriculture.

I am discussing the drop in production which has brought about the adverse balance which has caused this Budget.

Did the Deputy say the beet acreage was down this year?

It was down 18,000 acres last year.

The Deputy is avoiding any reference to the present year?

The year that is gone. That is all you have to depend on for your sugar. I could also tell the Parliamentary Secretary that this is the same state of affairs as put us into the position that we had to import 75,000 tons of foreign sugar the last time Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture and import it at 12/- per cwt. more than the best Irish sugar produced in our factories here. Those rosy pictures that are drawn about how cheaply you can get imports here are not correct.

Those 18,000 odd acres of beet mean that over 200,000 tons of sugar are gone, in the first instance; over 200,000 tons of freightage are lost to C.I.E and to the carriers in this country, and from six weeks' to two months' employment with the sugar company is lost to the workers of this country.

That is your fault more than anybody else's. It was you negotiated the price.

It was you who presented "Jamesy" to the country again as Minister for Agriculture.

The Deputy should not refer to the Minister in that fashion.

A Minister for Agriculture was put in to look after the interests of agriculture in this country who had publicly stated that beet had gone up the spout after peat and wheat, and God speed the day. That is the Minister for Agriculture you gave us.

Would the Deputy make an effort to come back to the Financial Resolution? The Deputy is dealing with agricultural matters that should have been raised on the Estimate.

Every single Deputy, Minister and Government that came in here has laid it down as a principle that, unless we have increased production on the land, the case is hopeless. I am dealing with the decreased production on the land——

The Deputy is going into details that should have been raised on the Estimate.

If I am interrupted, I have to explain to the children.

The Deputy does not require much encouragement.

Unfortunately, those are the facts and they cannot be denied. The Government is in the position to-day that they are refusing to honour the agreement they made with the beet growers.

The Deputy may not discuss the agreement with the beet growers on the Financial Resolution. It is not relevant.

I am dealing with the reduction in production and I think I am entitled to do so on this Budget.

And the Deputy is being discourteous to the Chair as well.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary not a model of courtesy?

We find that the cost of production has gone up all around and there is nothing to meet it. Any other industry in this country can do the same as Gouldings did—go before the tribunal, prove their costs and get their increase.

That has nothing to do with the Financial Resolution. The Chair is judge of what is relevant. Unless the Deputy comes back to the Financial Resolution, I will ask him to resume his seat.

If the Chair decides that the principal industry in this country cannot be discussed on this Financial Resolution, very well.

Not in the detail certainly into which the Deputy has gone. The Chair has been very lenient with the Deputy.

I am dealing with each item as I find it in relation to generally reduced production here and in relation to the cutting down of the income of the agricultural community. The total reduction in the income of the agricultural community this year as compared with last year is over £10,000,000. Yet, it is the agricultural community which is asked to produce more in order to get rid of our adverse trade balance. Is it any wonder that the Government and the Parties constituting it got the kick they did down in Leix-Offaly? It is no wonder at all when one considers the condition of affairs; and one has that condition of affairs running right through every branch of our agricultural and industrial life.

What has become of the sheet mills in Haulbowline? Away back in 1936, the late David Frame told the buyer of Rushbrooke Dockyard that he need not import his sheets at all, that he would make them for him in Haulbowline. The sheet mill is up there now. Why are the sheets not produced? We are still importing the sheets and converting them into corrugated iron.

That matter should be discussed on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce. It is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

That industry would, in my opinion, have relieved unemployment to a considerable extent. What will be the position in relation to our roads? The Government has stepped in and raided the Road Fund to balance this Budget.

That does not allow us to have a full-dress debate on roads on this Financial Resolution.

It is stated in the Budget statement that a certain amount of money was taken out of the Road Fund to balance the Budget. I am dealing with the gap that will be created as a result of that—the gap in employment, the gap in road maintenance and repair, the financial gap which will have to be closed by the ratepayers. Is there any end to the ingenuity with which this Budget was framed? Some years ago, I brought in a Private Bill to endeavour to open the pubs for an hour on Sunday. Deputies were inundated with letters from the Pioneer Association.

How does that arise on the Financial Resolution?

Because this Budget has taxed the pioneer. When people put a penny on the child's bottle of lemonade what can one expect? Evidently the Minister decided that the beer drinkers could bear no more and that there were too many "dry" men in the Government. Beer could not be taxed any more; but there was no reason, according to Deputy Donegan a moment ago, why the pioneer should not be taxed, so the Government put a penny on the bottle of lemonade.

I remember the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture getting up here in high dudgeon and waxing very eloquent about the poor man's smoke. Deputies on the benches opposite nearly went crazy at the idea of a tax on the poor man's bit of tobacco. I remember even Deputy O'Leary grew vocal on that occasion and had a lot to say about the poor man's smoke. We did not hear a word about the poor man's smoke last week here when the "fags" went up.

It is better than putting it on the butter, anyway.

I do not know about that either, mark you.

I would rather have butter on my bread anyhow.

The ordinary workers in this country might not know what butter is now, and if the Government is there for another year or so there will be plenty of butter for export, because they cannot afford it.

Better give them the butter now.

That is what is happening. They are going on margarine. I did not ever think I would see the time when an inter-Party "mixum-gatherum" Government and all as they are, would come along, after all the statements they made, and come in here——

Taking off £6,000,000.

——and put a tax on the cigarettes and tobacco again. Did anyone ever dream that they would see it? The poor old age pensioner——

The old age pension is up.

Deputy O'Leary must cease interrupting.

The poor old age pensioner of Deputy O'Leary's constituency——

You were ruining them.

——when he will fill the old pipe now, will be saying: "God be with the days when Deputy O'Leary told me to vote for him the last time and he could reduce the price of tobacco."

Deputy MacEntee destroyed him.

There you are, and Deputy O'Leary walked around there last week and voted for that increase for the poor man.

And you voted against the social benefits last week.

How in the name of Heaven, did Deputy O'Leary ever manage to go back into Wexford——

Deputy Corry must get back to the Budget.

They are sensible people there, not like in Youghal. I will talk to them.

Is there any justification for it? If my speech would induce Deputy O'Leary to speak in this House I would be delighted. His speech would be well worth hearing. However, that is only one of the items. They are going to put the 20 Aftons up from 2/5 to 2/10, but we have that kind of thing all round. We have the petrol tax, and when Deputies over there say that that is not going to have any effect on production in this country I do not know what they mean. How much extra will it cost the farmer to get his manures out to the land at increased freightage charges? How much extra will it cost to get his crops taken into the factories with increased freightage charges? The general manager of the Sugar Company told me the other day that his increased costs have already gone up in 12 months by over £400,000. That was the excuse they gave us when I went down last week looking for an increase of 2/8 a ton on beet caused by the 6/- increase to agricultural labourers. He said: "Yes, I have applied to the Government for an increase in the price of sugar to meet that." I will be very much amused watching if the Government will give it, because that price is based on costings, and it would be very interesting to know what will be the attitude of the Government on it.

These are the things that are piling up step by step and crippling our main producers and stopping production. I think it is a very wrong thing to pick out the ordinary lorry owner and haulage contractor in this country and to say: "You will pay a tax but the State subsidised C.I.E. will pay no tax. We are exempting their fuel from tax." I suppose it was the least the Government could do after borrowing a couple of millions off them the other day. It was the least they could do to show their appreciation, by going along and giving them this exemption. How is the ordinary haulier of goods going to earn his livelihood in competition with C.I.E. when there is 6d. extra on his petrol and there is nothing on C.I.E.'s fuel oil?

If he has fuel oil, how much extra will it be?

There is a hauliers' association in the Deputy's constituency. I do not know if they have met him or not, but I would love to be listening to him when they meet him. Deputy Hughes can tell them about the reduction they were going to get at the last general election.

I shall stand by anything I ever said.

I am very glad to hear the Deputy saying that he can stand by the statement he made at the last general election that the price of wheat was guaranteed for five years.

I did not make that statement.

I have not it here at the moment, but I will find it if necessary.

It is not relevant.

Those are the facts. The general body of lorry owners, down in my country anyway, and I am sure all over the country, from what I know of them from my negotiations in regard to freightage on beet, are only working men owning a lorry and living in a little house, endeavouring to make a livelihood out of the hire of the lorry.

And voting Labour, many of them.

They will continue to do so.

It is bad enough for C.I.E. to come along and charge them 7½ per cent. commission to bring their beet to the railway——

That cannot be debated at this stage.

I am giving that as one instance—that that was bad enough without this Government putting 6d. a gallon on their petrol to drive them out of business. I have seen many devices used in this House by legislation and otherwise in the past number of years to drive those people out of business.

By the Transport Act.

We see the result now. We had not yet seen 6d. a gallon on petrol worked as a tax on one and no tax on the other. A tax on one branch and no tax on the other—that is what has been done in this Budget. We are then told that we will have to relieve the farmers. How far has the farmer been relieved? The farmer uses a gallon of petrol once in a while for priming and warming up the old tractor before starting it off. That is all the petrol he uses. The bulk of the farmer's petrol is being used in his ordinary work in haulage, for which there is no relief. Is the Minister now prepared to consider an increase in the price of milk, due to the fact that 6d. has been put on the petrol to haul the farmers' milk to the creamery?

That is a matter which would have been appropriate to the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

Unfortunately, the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture has gone before this. These are the results, I might say, of this increase in taxation on petrol—and they are only a few of the results that will come from it. Where are all the promises that were made in the leaflets? Last year, when a Budget was introduced here, we were told:—

"We had not time. Give us a chance. We are only at the start of this business now. We took a little off the butter this year. We will take more off it next year."

Lo and behold, they come in here, the following year, having decided that it looked too cold outside to go to the country and that a lock-in at Dublin City and at Leix-Offaly was enough—"You cannot go out, lads"—and the Minister for Finance could not trim his sails sufficiently to get a Budget that would even relieve the blast for the moment, with the result that they had to bring in this.

I do not compliment the Minister for Finance on his Budget. This Budget has proved one thing. It has proved that, perhaps, the Minister himself, or some members of the Government, have come to their senses and no longer believe they can borrow and never pay back. Apparently they now realise that you cannot at election time say to the people: "Look at the price of tea." I do not see any reduction in the price of tea in the Budget. You know, it has gone up 2/- a lb. since our time. I am sorry Deputy A. Barry is not here: he would explain it.

I come now to the price of sugar. That is something for which we shall have a Supplementary Budget tomorrow or later. A sum of £450,000 extra expense on the Sugar Company has to be found and the extra cost for producing beet has to be found to pay me, no matter where it is to be found —be certain of that. We have just as much right to it as the civil servants.

The farm workers have.

We shall see to it that this agreement is honoured, that is, that the price of beet will be paid for on the price of production, plus a profit.

It has nothing to do with the Financial Resolution. The Deputy should try to come to the resolution now.

It has everything to do with one fact, namely, that no allowance has been made in this Budget for those costs I am speaking of and that that will definitely mean a Supplementary Budget.

Is that what you are hoping for?

I should like some Deputy over there to get up and explain to me where they are going to find close on £600,000 that will have to be found for this purpose. Unless they tax sugar, where else will they get it? You will not always have the pig feeders, you know.

I would ask Deputy Corry to make an effort to come back to the Financial Resolution. He is discussing agriculture.

I am discussing, on this, the fact that no provision has been made in this Budget——

The Deputy has already said that at least three times.

Very well; I do not want to repeat it. These are the facts. Why, in the name of heavens, did they put a penny on the gallon of paraffin oil?

The dance halls, is it?

And poteen. You know what that is? Why was the paraffin oil taxed? The majority of the people using paraffin oil at the present time are living in areas in this country which, unfortunately, could not be reached by rural electrification. They are the people who are using the paraffin oil to-day.

For cooking and lighting.

They are the people who are still depending on the lamp.

Deputy MacEntee does not know anything about it.

I know that most of them are farm labourers. Apparently Deputy Tully forgets that.

The farm labourers are paying Deputy James Tully well.

You would not know anything about that.

Why was that tax imposed? Was it, perhaps, a case of scraping the bottom of the pot as far as these people are concerned by endeavouring in every quarter to find money? Above all, what is the money for? When people go down the country and urge, and when the Government make declarations advising, the people to save, surely, in the first instance, the people are entitled to ask the Government to economise and to show a lead to the country. What steps have the Government taken in that direction? Can they show any? All we know about them is that they are still recruiting civil servants and still providing increases for them. We are also entitled to know under what system this is worked. Is one section of the community picked out and, if the cost of living goes up so many points, as they term it, so that an ordinary wage-earner gets some £30 a year to meet the increase, where is the team or where are the geniuses in the Department of Finance who make out that other individuals are entitled to £130 and £150 to meet that £30 increase? Is there one section of the community picked out who can look forward hopefully every morning when they awake to an increase in the cost of living and who can say: "If the cost of living goes up by a pound, we will get an extra fiver to meet it"?

I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he would want to overhaul that machinery. I can very easily understand a civil servant with £1,800 or £2,000 a year being able to say: "The cost of living has gone up four points; that is £30 a year. If I succeed in getting this now through arbitration award, I will get £150 to pay the £30." That is being done. Is that the kind of agreement you want us to honour?

The Deputy did not honour the award.

Does the Deputy think that the unfortunate worker who elected him is going to stand for that? Nobody in this country is going to stand for it.

The Deputy's Leader did not honour it.

Is one section of the community going to be picked out here in order to honour an agreement, an agreement made by whom? By one civil servant scratching another! It is about time that the ordinary Deputy who comes in here representing rural constituencies spoke out.

And spoke the truth.

And did not misrepresent the facts.

It is high time that he spoke out. If the Deputy will go down to the local authority he is dealing with and make inquiries there, he will find that there is £30 for the fellow with £330; £70 for the fellow with £1,000 and £150 for the fellow with £2,000——

You brought in the managerial system.

It is the job of the Deputy now to get after that condition of affairs and see that it is remedied and that some balance is struck in this country—that we are not going to have one section of the community behind barbed wire entanglements, protected in air-raid shelters from every wind that blows, while the rest of the unfortunate people must pay the piper. It is time it ended. The people of this country cannot afford a Government run as this Government is being run. That is what is wrong. They tell the people: "Save, and according as you save more, we will borrow it and we will pay the civil servants with it." Everywhere we look we are told "Produce more," and then we are told: "You will get the self-same price as the farmer in England and the North according as you produce——"

The Deputy should get back to the Resolution.

The whole cry in the country is that the only hope we have of correcting the situation is by getting rid of our adverse balance of payments, and that the only way we can do that is by producing more at home. Ninety per cent. of what we produce at home for export is agricultural produce. The people who use that cry and say we must increase production come along, on the other hand, and increase our costs. How can they expect that we are going to get rid of our adverse trade balance? If you come along to an industrialist and say: "You are producing buckets; I will take all the buckets you produce at a guaranteed price of 1/- per bucket, knowing it costs you 2/6 to produce them." Is there any business man over there who would say that? That is what is being done as far as the main producer in this country is concerned. That is what has driven him out of production, and driven him out in such a way that we are now faced with a position in this country where we must import something which was being produced here at home some years ago. Something like £5,000,000 is now going out for wheat which was produced by the farmers of this country in previous years.

You are going to have the same state of affairs in regard to everything else. Then we wonder why we have an adverse trade balance. We have the idiot down the country who says: "Why does the farmer not produce more? Are you not getting a guaranteed price?" That is the kind of stuff we get and then we are told we are on a par as far as price is concerned with the people across the water, ignoring the fact that the farmer here is paying £5,000,000 a year in rates not being paid by his brother across the water. You are not going to have increased production on the land here, and anybody who pretends we are is only like a person with his head in the clouds. No man who is taxed for production will produce. No man is idiot enough to subscribe to Government loans in future when he knows how the money is being spent.

It is just as well now to get down to it. The Government is going out preaching savings to the ordinary unfortunate man in the country who has enough to do to support his wife and children and who does not know where he is going to get his next week's money. The place for the Government to start saving is here in Dublin. Get out to those Departments and have a bit of a clean up. Do not add 25 where five will do. Can any Minister or Deputy over there justify for me or tell me what they are doing when there are at present over 8,000 more civil servants in Dublin than there were during the emergency when everything was rationed? What are they doing?

Where did the Deputy get that figure?

Let us get down to it and find that out.

The Deputy is quoting a figure of 8,000 civil servants.

If the Deputy will go down to the Library he will get the answer, giving the number of civil servants employed at the end of the emergency and the number in 1952. If the Deputy has any doubt about my figures, he has a very simple way of finding out whether I am right or wrong—he can put down a question to the Minister for Finance asking him the number of civil servants employed in 1948, when that Government took over first, the number the last time we left office and the number to-day. He can get those figures for himself, and he will know whether I am right or wrong in my figures. I know what I am talking about here. I know that this country cannot afford the luxury of keeping them all.

There must be work for them.

We will send them down to do a bit of tillage for Deputy Fagan. The fact is that we have a condition of affairs in this country where, in order to carry on Government here, we have to borrow an average of £29,000,000 every year and of that £13,000,000 is going to repay the principal and interest on what has already been borrowed. That is the position here to-day. Until we get rid of what might be called the overburden that is thrown on the workers of this country, whether they be industrial workers, farm workers or farmers, you are going to see Budget after Budget brought in, each introducing fresh taxation, each building up, so that the Minister for Finance has to sit down after the introduction of one Budget and start off figuring out for the following 12 months how he is to get increased money out of the people in the next.

It is all going into the one rapacious maw and there is only one way of ending it, short of a revolution. I am an old fellow now and one would not think that I would believe anything I was told, but I had an idea that the former Minister for Finance, Deputy McGilligan, was going to do a bit of paring down. I was foolish enough to believe that. I do not know why, but it reminds me of a little story I was told recently. Two lions escaped out of the Dublin Zoo and got out into the Dublin mountains. They met after a week. One fellow was fine and fat and the other fellow's belly was tied to his backbone with the hunger. The hungry one said to his fat friend that he was afraid that he would have to go back and the other fellow said not to do anything of the kind, that he picked out a fine fat fellow every morning for his meals. They went away again and met after another week and the fat fellow asked his friend how he got on. He said he was doing all right, but he was afraid he had made a mistake that morning. He said: "I picked up a nice fat lassie this morning, but I think she was the one that used to make their tea for them and I am afraid she will be missed." Unless there is a cleaning up as far as these things are concerned, there will be no increased production.

There would be no room for them in Cork, if they all went back there.

It is time that there was some weeding out, as far as this condition of affairs is concerned. You will have to start, not down the country, but here in Dublin, and the local authorities will have to start also.

The Deputy may discuss the local authorities on the appropriate Estimate motion.

Unless there is a definite change, particularly in the attitude of the Government towards the agricultural community, unless these contemptible methods of getting income-tax from the agricultural community are stopped, you are going to have Budget after Budget brought in here every year imposing increases on the people who have to pay. You cannot tax any industry out of existence and that is what is being attempted now.

I have been listening to Deputy Corry for quite a long time here to-night. As a rule, I enjoy listening to him, because he usually makes a fairly sensible speech. Perhaps it is because he has not recovered from his long sleep on the way up on the afternoon train from Cork that he made so many blunders this evening. One example of his blunders is the reference to the demand from the beet growers for an increase of 2/8 per ton.

The Chair informed the Deputy that he was not in order.

I bow to your ruling, Sir, but if the price of sugar, which is relevant, is going to go up as a result of the fact that people in Deputy Corry's constituency take a whole year to look after two tons of beet, I do not think we need to worry too much.

This is not a wonderful Budget, but, in my opinion, it is a sensible Budget. I have been speaking to people all over the country, to the farm labourers in whom the Deputies opposite are so interested this evening, and their opinion is that it is not the kind of Budget that Fianna Fáil would have brought in. Fianna Fáil would have slashed the subsidies on foodstuffs and would have seen to it that the working amn would be made to pay more than his share, as he always had to do under Fianna Fáil. There is no use in Deputy after Deputy offering destructive criticism here. We have not heard much constructive criticism from them. We know quite well that the men and women who smoke cigarettes are grumbling and saying that the increased price is something they do not want to pay. They will pay and, if they do not, they will go without smoking, because they cannot get cigarettes, if they do not pay it.

The same thing applies to petrol. The increased cost of petrol will be a bit hard on the people generally. It will be a bit hard on Deputies as well as on everybody else, but the suggestion that was made, not by Deputy Corry alone, but by a number of other Fianna Fáil Deputies, that the increased price of petrol would be a staggering load on farmers and lorry owners——

And workers.

I presume the Deputy understands that a lorry owner and a farmer are workers. It is ridiculous to suggest, as they did, that a number of lorry owners and farmers will go out of business, because of the increased taxation on petrol. No matter how small the mileage per gallon obtained from those lorries and tractors we hear so much about, the extra impost of 6d. per gallon will not break the people who are paying it. They may be dissatisfied at having to pay it, but most of them will collect it back from somebody else.

Hear, hear! From whom?

That is for you to make up your mind about. I was very glad to hear the suggestion made, and afterwards confirmed by the Minister for Social Welfare, that there will be increases in certain types of benefits. This is something which is long overdue. While I do not agree that it is the most that can be done, I am satisfied it is an honest effort to help people who are not in a position to help themselves. I am also satisfied that the effort to help pensioners is long overdue. I should like the Minister, when replying to the debate, to say if it is intended to give a direction to local authorities as to how pensioners of those local authorities will be affected under the new arrangements.

There have been so many angles put on this Budget by the people opposite that it is hard at times to know which side of the fence they intend to come down on. One thing I noticed was that Deputy Corry's line seemed to be at variance with that of a number of other speakers. I hope I will not become as confused as Deputy Carter was the other night when he referred to a statement I made about something which was under discussion here. It is hard to know what exactly Fianna Fáil found wrong with the Budget, or what they would have done if they were in the same place as the Minister for Finance the other day. I feel that the reliefs given by the Minister, by making available money for social services, will be appreciated very much by working-class people. I feel sure that they, in their wisdom, will realise and, as very many of them have pointed out to me, appreciate the fact, that if they have a few extra shillings when they are unemployed or ill, they can use it to better advantage, particularly when the price of food has not been increased as Fianna Fáil would have increased it.

In conclusion, there is one question I should like to ask. I have been in this House less than two years. During that time, as far as I am aware, there has not been such a tremendous increase in the number of civil servants as some people are suggesting. Is it not a fact that during the time Fianna Fáil were in power prior to 1948 and when they came back into office after the 1951 election, practically the same number of civil servants were then employed by the State Departments? Is it not also a fact that no attempt whatever was made to reduce the numbers during either of the two periods during which they were in office? Again, is it not a fact that a reduction of the number of civil servants is only called for by Fianna Fáil when they are in opposition?

I thought when I heard the Minister for Finance making statements on a few occasions in recent times on his changed attitude on the whole financial question and on the position in general, that I would not hear any more of the misrepresentations that are still being attempted by other members of the Coalition Government. One misrepresentation came this evening from Deputy Donegan. He proceeded to compliment Deputy de Valera when he said that the position could not be rectified by half measures.

I did not.

In order to qualify that he went on to say what measures would have been taken if we had Deputy MacEntee in the place of the Minister for Finance—"Deputy MacEntee who recently described the Sweetman squeeze as too gentle." If my memory serves me rightly, he said, or at least implied, that other measures and greater taxation would be piled on the people in order to remedy the situation. The Coalition have allowed this position to develop. It developed from 1948 to 1951. It was rectified from 1951 to 1954, and now, from 1954 to 1956, it has developed again and it is largely of their own making. It is because of all that and it is because of this misrepresentation, deception and dishonesty with the people that I stand up to express my disapproval of this Budget, not because steps have been taken to rectify a particular position.

This Budget was aptly described by Deputy Lemass as one that was a shock and disappointment to the many thousands of supporters of the Coalition Government who voted for them at the 1954 election. If there is a silver lining to it, it is the fact that it is not merely a shock and a disappointment but a disillusionment of the many thousands of the credulous people who fell for the propaganda of the various Parties forming the Coalition in regard to the 1952 Budget and the promises that they solemnly made between 1952 and the General Election of 1954. Perhaps this Budget is a blessing in disguise, if it serves the purpose of enlightening the people, so that they will listen to the various Parties at election time in future and judge them on a policy that is practicable, and not on lavish promises that cannot be fulfilled to any degree, such as were made during the period from 1952 to 1954.

It was not in 1952 that this started; it started away back in 1947. After the emergency, the position here was pretty difficult. It was obvious that many people would expect that the hardships they had to endure during the period of shortage would be very quickly eased. Production did not increase; supplies did not come to hand; and there was general uneasiness amongst large sections of the community. That was played upon by a new Party that entered Irish political life at that time. That new Party told the people that all they had to do was to remove Fianna Fáil from office, accept them, and they would have very good times, that the cost of living would be reduced, that wages would be increased and that, if necessary, subsidies would be increased.

When Fianna Fáil introduced subsidies, the people most opposed to them were the Labour Party. Their idea was that wages should be increased and that they would be able to get value for increased wages. No matter what increase was given in wages, owing to the fact that supplies were short, people could not procure their requirements to the extent that would be made possible by increased production. It was not possible at that time to dispense with rationing. The theory that was advanced and the dictum of the Clann na Poblachta Party of that time, in their effort to play up to the unthinking people, was that it was quite possible to get more out of life than you put into it.

It would not be so bad if that were confined to the Clann na Poblachta Party, but when the seasoned and experienced politicians of Fine Gael accepted that theory and went all out to advance it and to deceive the people at that time by telling them that that was possible, it was no wonder that we had the state of affairs that we found in 1951 and that the Coalition Government now find at the present time.

The Coalition now want us, whom they traduced, maligned, and misrepresented, to approve of their shameless somersault on taxation, the cost of living, external assets, the balance of trade and the many other facets of Government. They expect that we should silently acquiesce in their deception and political expediency. If they imagine that they succeeded in smothering or doping our memories of that period, they are making a very great mistake. If they had acted as they, as responsible people, should have acted, in 1948 and in 1951, and had attacked us on general policy, whether agricultural, industrial, economic or otherwise, and had shown to the people how they could improve the position, we would not feel so much inclined to show them up as we are prepared to show them up and shall continue to show them up, not merely here, but at every crossroads and church gate in the country.

When the 1952 Budget was introduced to meet the serious situation which they had allowed to develop from 1948 to 1951, we were described as highwaymen of the very worst order. Dick Turpin was an angel compared with the then Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee. The people were told that Turpin invariably robbed the rich to help the poor, but that the idea behind Deputy MacEntee's Budget at that time was to make the rich richer and the poor poorer——

And so he did.

——that he was following the pattern of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer and was acting at the behest of the Central Bank. What pattern is the Coalition following now? What banking report are they following? The deception that was practised on the people was revolting. The sooner we have honesty in the public life of this country, the better for democracy. As a result of what has happened from 1947 to the present time, democracy is on trial in this country.

We were told that the taxation imposed by Fianna Fáil was unjust and unnecessary. Will they deny that they said that? Perhaps they will deny it as many of them denied that they made any promises. I shall not state here what I am not prepared to prove from the records of this House. Speaking on Resolution No. 11—General—on 3rd April, 1952, Volume 138, column 1268 of the Official Report, the present Taoiseach—and he was no youngster in politics; he was no impetuous young man who was anxious to get into political life; he had been in political life and understood the difficulties and ramifications of Government—made this statement:—

"The Budget which the Minister for Finance introduced yesterday is a cruel Budget. It is also a Budget which contains wholly unnecessary taxation. Therefore, it is an unjust Budget."

If it was an unjust Budget, if it contained unnecessary taxation, why has not it been altered since? Why has not the taxation been reduced or modified to some appreciable extent?

At column 1269, he said:—

"The country has not yet even recovered from the impact of the first shock of these Budget proposals. It will, therefore, receive a new and a startling shock when it is demonstrated that the proposals contained in the Minister's Budget statement yesterday contained proposals for the unnecessary collection of from £9,000,000 to £10,000,000 concealed taxation."

That was a statement coming from a man who, I feel sure, had a good understanding of finance and of the economic position. There he went out to tell the people that Fianna Fáil found pleasure in placing tax burdens on them at a time when they were in this House with a very slender majority. They said they were doing it so that they would be enabled to bring in a Budget a year hence with reduced taxation and that they would consequently get back with an increased majority when they went to the country.

At column 1269 of the same volume the same man had something else to say. I do not believe at all in quoting any of the other people who trot after somebody like that and who are "yes" men. I like to deal with people of authority and responsibility. This is what the present Taoiseach had to say:—

"Not merely, therefore, will the people of this country have to face the burden of the colossal taxation that was indicated yesterday by the Minister in his Budget speech, but they will have the added horror of knowing that those proposals are extracting from the pockets of the taxpayers from £9,000,000 to £10,000,000 taxation which is wholly unnecessary to balance the Budget this year."

At column 1288 he is reported as saying:—

"The Minister and his colleagues would not even raid the Road Fund, which was the traditional method for any Minister for Finance in the past to get money in ease of the hard pressed taxpayer."

The Road Fund is being raided now and when Deputy Smith, the then Minister for Local Government, brought in proposals here to increase the tax on mechanically propelled vehicles there was a storm of protest from the Opposition. Deputy Smith's object was to increase the Road Fund in order to improve the roads so that they might be able to take the increase in traffic. He proposed not merely to improve the main roads but also the country roads. The Opposition then said that the Road Fund might be utilised for purposes other than those for which it was set up. It could be used to balance a Budget. A large slice of it has been taken over now to balance a Budget and it will create a considerable amount of unemployment.

I cannot understand Deputy McQuillan voting for these proposals here the other evening in view of the fact that he introduced a Bill to enable the local authorities throughout the country to take over the cul-de-sac roads and the minor roads in order to improve them. It might not have been possible to make money available from the Road Fund under existing law but the statutes could have been amended so that money from the Road Fund could be made available for roads of that kind.

We had all this ballyhoo in 1952 from the Parties making up the present Government. We have a different story now. When the present Taoiseach was speaking on that debate at a later stage, on May 13th, 1952, he said, as reported at column 1442, Volume 131:—

"If by any stroke of misfortune or ill-fortune I was translated to clear up the appalling mess the Minister has created and found myself faced with what he is asking the country to do, I would resign the next minute rather than proceed with any single provision in the present Budget. I would be no party to any provision in this Budget. I think these taxes are cruel and unjust and that they will prove so."

He is a party to it now. Can they show one tax imposed in that Budget that has been remitted? On the contrary, they have supplemented them by increased taxation ever since they took office.

They are putting jam on it.

At column 1443 of Volume 131 the present Taoiseach said:—

"I am anxious to repeat, in spite of the alleged point of order, that I would not be a party in any Administration—either as head of it or as a member of it—to the unjust, cruel and entirely unnecessary provisions of the Budget which he has brought in."

If these taxes were unnecessary in 1952, how is it that they are now so very necessary and how is it it was necessary to maintain them from 1952 to the present time? They have been talking about the butter subsidy—the reduction in the price of butter. I will answer that if I may. In the 1954 Budget, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, reduced the price of the 2-lb. loaf by a halfpenny. It was described as the halfpenny Budget. Let us take a family of five ordinary people. The average amount of butter consumed by each individual in that family in seven days on his slender income would be 1/2 lb. of butter. That would amount to 2½ lb. of butter for the family per week at 4/2 a lb., which amounts to something like 10/5.

What about the 2 oz.?

A great many of them are not eating the 2 oz. yet, even at the reduced price. The reduction in the price of butter to 9/4½ meant 1/0½ a week to that family. Take the 2-lb. loaf of bread. Each member of the same family, if physically fit, and if depending on bread as many people in the cities have to, would consume a 2-lb. loaf in the day. That would mean a saving of 2½d. per day. Multiply that by seven and you get 1/5½, if my calculation is correct. That means that the much despised halfpenny reduction on the price of the loaf was of much greater advantage to that family than was the reduction in the price of butter. Most of these families exist solely on bread because they cannot have potatoes or vegetables.

Of course it was said that the balanced Budget was only a myth, a figment in the imagination of the conservative Fianna Fáil hierarchy. The adverse trade balance was a healthy sign when our external assets were being used to increase imports required for capital development, but the dissipation of our external assets now is a serious misfortune confronting the country. Apparently all the capital development has been carried out and there is no longer, perhaps, any need for hair-curlers or mouth-organs. We were told, of course, that external assets were being built up in England to give cheap money to the British people, to give it to them at 2 or 2½ per cent., while at the same time charging 5 or 5½ per cent. to our own people, and even to our local authorities. Why has that not been changed? If our external assets were dissipated, why was the money not brought home for the purpose of relieving the situation here in Dublin, the housing situation?

We had all this kind of thing— everything then was a requirement and an essential of the people when Fianna Fáil were in office. Many of them, at least, appear to have become luxuries now. Electric washing machines are to be denied, as far as possible, to the farmers' wives and daughters all over the country. It is all right to leave them in the same drudgery as they were in 50 years ago, rubbing their knuckles off against the old board. It is all right for them not to have electric irons and to have to run from the table to the fire with the iron to heat it up. It is all right for these people to be trotting from the fire to the table and back again——

They are sending all the washing to the laundry now.

——and that is the attitude of the inter-Party Government to these people. Cigarettes, tobacco, matches—they are all luxuries now, of course, but they were essentials at one time. We had the Tánaiste, Deputy Norton, coming into the House on 21st April, on the Financial Resolution, 1954, and in Volume 145, at columns 577 and 578 saying:—

"The people are not going to be deceived by a reduction of a halfpenny on the price of bread. They have memories going back..."

This was in 1954—

"...to the 1952 Budget."

At column 581 of the same volume, he said:—

"We come to the Budget and its effects on the cost of living. That is the only thing that really matters to the ordinary people to-day. So far as the masses of the people are concerned to-day they are being crippled by the cost of living which has been driven skywards by the Fianna Fáil Budget of 1952. They have been looking forward to substantial relief in this Budget. What have they got? —a halfpenny off the 2-lb. loaf."

What have they got from the present Minister for Industry and Commerce, or from the present Minister for Finance, despite the fact that the wheat producers here have had wheat prices reduced by £5 per ton and that offals for pig feeding have been increased? There is still no halfpenny off the loaf and it will not be exhibited now in North-West Dublin on the top of a stick and there is no talk of all those callous people in the Government.

At column 583, the Tánaiste then said:—

"Before the 1952 Budget you could buy a lb. of sugar for 4d.... Thanks to the 1952 Budget you pay 7d. for it. Before the 1952 Budget you could buy a 2-lb. loaf for 6d.... After the 1952 Budget you had to pay 9d. for the same loaf. You could buy tea at 2/8 a lb. Thanks to Fianna Fáil you have now to pay 5/-."

What have we to pay now for the 5/- Fianna Fáil tea of 1954? We now have to pay 8/6, and, in many instances, 8/10, and yet we are all supposed to congratulate the very efficient and competent Government for the muddle they made of the tea business about a year and a half ago. That has added 2d. a lb. to the increase of over 2/- on the price and yet there has been no reduction made by the present Minister.

But there is something more. I remember on 6th April, 1952, a mass meeting was called in O'Connell Street by the Labour Party, addressed by Deputy Norton, Deputy Dunne and several others, and we had all the fulminations and bellowings that could be heard almost three miles distant about the callousness of the Fianna Fáil Government and what they had done to the people. That talk almost drove the citizens of Dublin to the point of lynching the then Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, the first time they could lay hands on him.

He was well guarded.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce or Tánaiste can go up O'Connell Street now and make statements. Will he explain now why it is that during his period of office, and with his approval, tea has gone up from the 5/- a lb. that it was in 1954——

Despite the Parliamentary Secretary's—Deputy O'Donovan's —assertions to the contrary.

Will he explain this increase in the price of cigarettes? They were 2/4 then. The tobacco manufacturers went before the Prices Advisory Body and they got an extra penny which brought them to 2/5. They are now 2/10 for a packet of 20, so that, instead of having to pay 5d. more, they have to pay an additional 6d., and we do not hear a word about it now. Neither do we hear any disapproval expressed by the Labour Party. The 2/8 per stone of flour that Fianna Fáil increased to 4/10 when they took it off the ration — there is no decrease on that, and the people are still paying 4/10.

There are several things besides these that were said. Everything then was an essential. Will the Minister explain to the old age pensioners why it is that the 2/6 increase given them last July is going to be almost entirely cancelled because of the price they now have to pay for their four ounces of tobacco? Tobacco has gone up, not by 4d. an ounce on the bar, but it has gone up by 4½d. an ounce since Fianna Fáil's time and four times 4½d. according to my reckoning is 1/6. It would not need an extraordinarily heavy smoker, or an extra healthy man of 74 or 75 or even 78, to smoke four ounces of tobacco in the week, and he has to pay 1/6 more for it out of the increase he got last July, plus the 1d. on the two boxes of matches to light it with, if he does not put himself in danger of falling into the little fire when he stoops down for a coal to light it. In that way, 1/7 of the 2/6 is gone and there is no talk of giving any increase to these people. It is the contributory people who are going to be fed on what they subscribe themselves. They are going to get the increase from themselves.

It is a pity you did not think of it in 1947.

I used common sense in 1947 and I thought of it in 1947 and 1948 and in 1952, and I think of it now. If Fianna Fáil were in office, as Deputy Corry said, this situation would not have developed and there would not be almost £22,000,000 of agricultural produce imported into this country in the past year. If you want to find out where I got that figure, you will find it in the National Farmers' Journal, and that is not a Fianna Fáil production I can assure you. If we had but £15,000,000 of it, the adverse trade balance would be down to £20,000,000 and would not be the £35,500,000 it is in one year or a year and a half.

We have various other statements. We have the Minister for Agriculture coming into this House telling us that the key to prosperity is for the farmers to increase production and become more efficient. He goes out and tells them to reduce their overhead costs and says that one of the primary things for a farmer to do is to reduce his overhead costs. Does he tell them that an increase of an average of 2/- in their rates is infinitesimal, as far as a farmer is concerned? Does he tell them that an increase in fertiliser and maize means nothing, if they only become more efficient? Does he tell them that an increase in the prices of hydrocarbon oil and lubricating oil for their tractors is only what you would put into a child's hand, if you were decent? Does he tell them that an increase of ? in insurance card stamps, bringing them from 2/6 to 3/2, is something they should be delighted to pay?

After all, it is the farmer who will pay it. I have experience of agricultural labourers and they do not bother to stamp a card; and no farmer would be mean enough to deduct it from an honest labourer. Does the Minister tell them that £15 12s. per year for an agricultural labourer is only a token of the restitution they should give to the State and to the community for the easy money they earned on live stock, eggs, poultry, bacon, wheat, barley, oats, beet and potatoes during the years they were racketeering under rotten Fianna Fáil policy? Does he tell them all these things? These are the things they are expected to swallow.

Almost every section of the community is being cushioned to some extent, except the people who are described as the primary producers— the people who are expected to come to the aid of the Government and of the country by producing more, reducing overhead costs, becoming more efficient and all the rest. It is all tommyrot; it is mere bombast to be going out and talking to the farmers in that kind of language, without giving them the proper encouragement to do the work. If they get it, undoubtedly they will come to the rescue. In my opinion, they will increase production and increase it very well. You have very intelligent young men to-day in both Macra na Feirme and the National Farmers' Association, and, I suppose in Muintir na Tíre also. I do not think they want very much for nothing, but they want protection and they want a chance to pull up on the handicap of being for years in the position of not being able to do things such as countries that have had their freedom for centuries have been able to do. They are not asking the impossible.

Will the farmers now be told that the increase in the bank rate from 5¼ per cent. to 5¾ per cent. is going to put more money in their pockets which they can plough back into the land? I am very sure there are a number of honest, hard-working, respectable, decent farmers in this country who are working on bank overdrafts; and to be fair to the commercial banks, they have not been hard on them; they have never been hard, in my opinion, on anybody who they believed was trying to make an honest living and trying to meet his commitments; but for political expediency, when the banks were about to increase the interest on money they were lending from 5 per cent. to 5½ per cent., we were told, and it was boasted of by the Minister for Finance, that he stepped in and prevented them. When it went up to 5¾ per cent., a ¼ per cent., more than it would otherwise be if they had been allowed to put it on at the proper time, that ¼ per cent. is going to make good the deficiency which they had been prevented from meeting.

All this interference with the commercial banks of this country has a very bad effect. When I heard the Minister's statement about the withdrawal of deposits and the amount borrowed, and when I heard that the loan was not subscribed by investors, I felt that it was that type of interference with the banks of this country that was responsible for anything that is wrong. When the Government does not know its mind from one day to another, but is being pushed by certain press gangs, the people are saying to themselves that their money is no longer safe in the Irish banks and they are taking it out of them very quickly, putting it some place where it cannot be collared so readily.

If the policy of the Government is to nationalise the banks, let it be done in the proper way. Let it be done as it would be done in a real totalitarian country. Let the Army be put in in the evening when the banks are closing; let the Dáil be called together and pass the necessary legislation, and keep us here at an all-night sitting to get it with their over-all majority. Take over the banking business of this country altogether. If they did that, the people would have more confidence than they have as a result of the way it has been carried on now. One day, the Government have responsibility; the next day, they have not. The people do not know what is going to happen, and that is one of the several reasons for the big withdrawals of deposits during the past year. There is no use in blinding ourselves to the fact.

Then we have another class: the fellow who tries to evade paying anything to the State, to the bank or to the individual; and he will borrow every penny he can lay hold of in a situation of that kind, if he is allowed to do it. If this Budget was brought in in an atmosphere and in a set of circumstances for which the Government had no responsibility and which was outside their control, I am very sure that the members of the Opposition would be very slow to vote against it. Let them not think that it is because of the imposition of this taxation or the need for it; it is for unmasking the present Government.

All this has followed on the dicta of 1948: "You can have a good time; you can have higher social services; you can do less work and take the money off the other fellow. There are too many of these fellows with big incomes. Why should they be left to them? There are too many people with incomes of over £2,000, £3,000 and even £10,000. These incomes will have to be taken from them. There will have to be an equal distribution."

That was the kind of propaganda that was put before the people: "Live well and be merry to-day and forget about to-morrow; we will see that it will be all right." That sort of propaganda has been the ruination of this country and the sooner that dictum is called in question the better it will be. The sooner people realise the falseness underlying the promises that "the sky is the limit" at election times and give their answer by rejecting the protagonists of such false theories and put somebody with a sense of responsibility in their place, somebody who will not deceive the people, the better it will be for this country.

This Budget has clearly demonstrated the hypocrisy of those who went out deliberately, fully experienced in Government, and misled the people by telling them that the proper thing to do was to put out Fianna Fáil and put the Coalition into control, and there would be a change overnight. According to one of the supporters of the present Government, the Minister for Finance could reduce expenditure by £1,000,000 a minute.

"A million a minute Mulcahy".

Taxation lies lightly on the land.

The present Taoiseach says he made no promises. Number 12 of the 13 points that Fine Gael put before the people was that Government policy on prices and costs would receive in future a new orientation so that an intolerable level of prices does not lead to ultimate economic stagnation. No doubt it has been given the oriental touch, but we cannot see much advantage in it. On the 7th May, 1954, he said at Portlaoise: "We hope to do something for the people, decrease taxation, leave more money in your pockets to do what you like with it." That was no promise, of course. Not at all. That was no promise—"...money in your pockets to do what you like with it." Can they do what they like with the money they have not got in their pockets now? Can they buy what are called luxuries? I sincerely hope that that kind of propaganda will not be heard again in this country. I hope that Deputy Sweetman, Minister for Finance, will go down now to the church gate in South Roscommon where, before the last election, he took out the blue Fine Gael leaflet and compared the prices and gave a solemn promise that they would be brought back to the 1951 level. Will he do that now?

He never did it at all.

What does the Minister say?

He never did it at all.

Did he not? I am very glad to have the Minister's official denial of this because I have met several people down there—

What the Minister did during an election is scarcely relevant to the provisions of the Budget.

It was a promise made.

If the Deputy is dealing with promises, that is one thing. The production of a leaflet is quite irrelevant to the provisions of the Budget.

I bow to the ruling of the Chair, but the Minister specified the articles.

I am not stopping the Deputy on that, but the production of a leaflet is not relevant.

I am not denying I produced a leaflet. I produced it everywhere. What I am denying is what Deputy Beegan is putting in my mouth.

The Minister denies that he said that.

I was assured that he promised that prices would be brought back to the 1951 level immediately the Coalition would be returned.

If the Minister denies that, it must be accepted.

I am accepting the Minister's denial and I am glad now that it is on the official records for I shall have the official record to take down to the people in the area and to the church gate and they will be the best judges. If they accept the Minister's denial, I shall be quite satisfied.

The Irish Press will do that. The Deputy need not bring down the Official Report.

I have met a number of people recently in the wage-earning groups and they have told me they would be delighted with a standstill wages Order, provided it was accompanied by a standstill prices Order and a standstill profits Order similar to the Orders we had in operation in the years in which they were in force. It was asked here to-day as to why the trade unions are meeting the Federation of Employers. Is it not for a standstill Order on wages and prices and profits? If they are wrong in that, then I suppose we were wrong. Nevertheless, they are apparently looking for that and that is what they want.

The Deputy did not want to meet the unions.

I hope this Budget will do what it is designed to do, but I doubt it very much. Mark you, there are a number of us on this side of the House anxious for financial stability. We are anxious to see the country progressing.

That is right. That is why the Deputy will vote against it.

We will vote against it at the right time. We were never afraid to follow the dictates of our conscience. We are not voting against it because of the increase in taxation but for the purpose of showing up the hypocrisy, the dishonesty and the deception practised on the people, even by the Minister for Finance himself, and by his colleagues from 1952 to 1954.

I have listened now to the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. I listened earlier to-day to the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party. I listened last week to the Front Benchers of the Fianna Fáil Party. Never have I heard such a poor contribution to any debate and particularly to a debate on a Budget.

That is something.

It is something. I listened to Deputy Corry and to many more speakers on the Opposition Benches. Their principal form of amusement here seems to be that of baiting a Parliamentary Secretary on the Government Front Bench because he happens to be a distinguished professor.

Cast your mantle over him.

Swift wrote about those who bait educated people. I now realise what a great genius Swift was in being able to create the characters he did without ever having been in this House. I listened to the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party this afternoon and his contribution to the debate was a series of recriminations and harking back. He said Fine Gael was the great Party for reducing taxation—I wrote it down. His Party was in power for 20 years. In each of those 20 years they brought in a Budget and in not one of those Budgets was there ever a reduction. Each year taxation increased, increased and increased. There was never a decrease.

May I draw your attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present?

There is a quorum.

Does the Deputy not know how to count?

It is like all the figures they produce on that side of the House. They cannot count up to 20 and they come in here and talk in millions. We were always taught to believe that when we would go to the hereafter, if we had suffered any penances in this life, we would be rewarded. Much reward is awaiting the members of my Party who had to listen to Deputy Corry here this afternoon.

This is a halo.

Deputy Moher is the danger to Deputy Corry, a great danger. Deputy Corry is a good man for asking questions. I have his answers. I have Volume 146, column 1174, 6th July, 1954. Deputy Corry did not produce these. He produced a figure for 1952. Then he asked a question to-day, and it was answered, and he did not give these figures either, because they would not suit. I heard the Leader of the Opposition pontificating around the country, warning everybody that the country was in pawn. Let us see about the pawning, according to the figures returned here in this House, in reply to Deputy Corry's question. In 1950-51 the inter-Party Government put the country in pawn to the tune of £21,000,000 according to these figures, and according to the Leader of the Opposition, in 1951-52, when the Fianna Fáil Government came back, it went up to £38,900,000—I will say £39,000,000. In 1952-53 it was £31,000,000. Fianna Fáil were in power in those years. In 1953-54 it was £32,000,000, 1954-55, £29,000,000, 1955-56, £23,000,000. There is consistency in reducing the figure.

Deputy Corry, of course, was ranting and raving about the Civil Service and the enormous waste of money that seemed to be poured out on the Civil Service. I met the civil servants first when I came up two years ago, and I must say they are a most efficient and competent body of men. We have always had an idea that is common down the country, that we get from our comic papers——

The efficiency and competency of the Civil Service is not under discussion.

Right, but I was only replying to Deputy Corry.

The Deputy says they are efficient, somebody else may say they are inefficient.

There was a good deal said to their detriment, and I thought I would right it, but if you say it I will not continue about them.

The matter should not be discussed.

The only thing I would say about the increase in the Civil Service is that the Civil Service increased during the term of office of Fianna Fáil. It was they who created this enormous machine. Deputy Corry and some other Deputies mentioned the rates and local officials down the country, and the cost. I am right on the the button now, because it is in the Budget, I might as well say. I pointed out when I interrupted that we had no power or authority to rectify these costs down the country, as all our powers had been taken away by the Managerial Act brought in by Fianna Fáil.

I have allowed myself to be carried away in replying to Fianna Fáil, and I have not contributed much, but I want to compliment the Minister on this Budget. The Minister protected the people of this country. He disappointed Fianna Fáil, and the reason for the venom, the vilification and all the twisting and misrepresentation over there is that their prophets were proven to be false. I am reading now from the Irish Press, tied to Fianna Fáil.

A Deputy

Truth in the news.

The Sunday Press, February 19th, 1956: “Norton will have to tell the nation bread is going up.—Mr. Lemass.” That was a frightful disappointment to him, that we did not follow the line of Fianna Fáil in our Budget, and remove all food subsidies and let crushing imposts fall on our people as Fianna Fáil intended in the 1952 Budget. I had to take notice of this.

The Leader of the Opposition said to-day that democracy was on trial, as the Parliamentary Secretary said. It is threatened by those who will promise most, says the Leader of the Opposition—the greatest promiser of all time. "I will bring back the emigrants, do away with emigration, reduce all salaries." Salaries in this country were to be brought down to a minimum; no Cabinet Minister would have more than £1,000 a year. Not only were taxes going to be brought down but we were nearly all going to be paid to live in the country. Bills were put up with all the salaries of district justices and God knows what on them. Not one of these promises was carried out.

It has been said here in the House that this enormous burden was put upon the country by the inter-Party Government. The misrepresentation by Fianna Fáil, again, was that £13,000,000 must be found, that huge sums were going to be thrown cheerfully down the shore and let run off into the bogs. We should see what we have on the credit side since they came into office. Forty-two thousand houses have been built in this country since 1948. That was mentioned by my colleague this evening. One person in ten is in a new house. That was worth laying out money for. Where ships could not be tied up and discharged there are magnificent docks and magnificent port installations in the various ports down the country, that were neglected by Fianna Fáil.

It used to be said, and it was said about six or seven years ago, that T.B. would always be with us and that the sanatoria would be empty. The millions spent on those sanatoria were well spent. I always remember the frontispiece of Knocknagow when I look at a sanatorium, and I remember how Kickham wrote there how his little nieces begged of him not to let poor Nora Leahy die. The Nora Leahys of Ireland were dying in their thousands, but, thank God, they are not now, because there are sanatoria there for them that they can go into. It is nothing to laugh at, but a triumph for the people over here.

It is you we were laughing at. It was Dr. Ward who built those sanatoria.

He cured more bacon.

When Deputy Ward was there there was not a vestige of a sanatorium in the city I come from, Waterford. The foundation stone was not laid until 1949, and Dr. Ward was far away from this House then.

Where were you?

I had no intention of coming in here. I was in politics then and I was not being paid for it. Deputy Corry spoke for nearly three-quarters of an hour on agriculture this evening.

And said nothing.

He spoke about the poor farmers and he constantly referred to the 12/6 and the tax. I must refute this. Deputy Corry is a member of the Beet Growers' Association. That association was the negotiating body in the fixing of the price of barley for the years 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946 and 1947. They negotiated a price of 35/- a barrel. That was all we could get for our barley and we had to take it. Messrs. Guinness were paying 72/- for the English barley.

Deputy Corry was ruled out of order.

He was, but I think it is only fair that I should get an opportunity of answering what he said. There seems to be great grief on the Fianna Fáil benches that the poor people have to pay a penny a gallon on paraffin oil. I remember a right candle racket in this country that was run by Fianna Fáil.

Has it any relevancy?

It has, because candles cost money. These were the friends of the Minister of the day. They got the concession and the monopoly of candles. A good fat penny candle—

If the Deputy refuses to obey the Chair, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

With all due respect, I consider that, having been so lenient with other people, you might be lenient with me. I have been only two years in the House.

He has not grown up yet.

I have grown up all right. I have been about. The former Parliamentary Secretary, in his silver-tongued manner, said we were accusing Fianna Fáil of being conservative. Just look at the fine old bunch of conservatives over there. We have heard talk about the poor man, the small man, the small farmer and the unemployed man. They seem to be a sort of monopoly with the Opposition. According to Fianna Fáil, these people have been squeezed by us in the few years during which we have been in office. In my view, these people took a lot more punishment from Fianna Fáil than they ever took from us. Another thing we have to our credit is the land reclamation scheme. I am continually coming across fine fields now laid out in crops which were fox coverts before.

I am afraid it does not arise on the Financial Resolution. That would be a matter for the Estimate.

The last speaker mentioned electricity on the farms. He spoke at length about it, and about television sets and wireless sets. Why should people on the land not have television and wireless sets? They have a greater right to them than anybody else in the country.

I thought, when I was coming into Dáil Eireann that, whenever there would be a Budget debate, I should hear constructive criticism from the Opposition, or at least from the leaders of the Opposition, and that I should also hear constructive suggestions. I have not heard one constructive suggestion. Fianna Fáil taunted us again this evening about the old age pensioners. They said the old age pensioners are now being ground under foot, and so on. Before the inter-Party Government came into office, the leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party said that nothing could be done and nothing would be done for the old age pensioners: they said that at a time when the old age pensioner was receiving 12/6 a week. When the inter-Party Government came into office, they were able to raise that amount to 17/6 and, what was more important, they were able to raise the means test from £39 to £104, thus bringing in a lot of people who were not able to come in before that. That is not a bad record for a Government.

According to the Opposition, the tax on petrol will stop production. The usual venom was poured out on the Minister and on the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government. We had jeers, and all that sort of thing. I went to the trouble to find out something in this connection. I discovered that 75 per cent. of the petrol sold in this country is premium petrol. Therefore, only 25 per cent. of the petrol sold in this country is for commercial purposes.

I want to make a plea on behalf of one class of petrol users who are being squeezed a bit, so far as this petrol tax is concerned. It might be said that if the Minister gave them a concession or a rebate, there might be abuses. However, I put it to the Minister that some rebate should be given to hackney-drivers and taxi-men, as they are working people. I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in regard to that suggestion.

At this late hour of the evening, may I express the hope that, in the remainder of the Opposition speeches on this Budget debate, we shall hear some constructive suggestions, as well, maybe, as some constructive criticism. Everybody over there on the Opposition Benches just shouts and says: "The Minister should not have taxed this, that and the other." Maybe they want to follow Deputy Lemass—possibly the wish was father to the thought—and to put a tax on bread. "Bread is going up," said Deputy Lemass.

And biscuits coming down again?

They talk about increased production. It was said by the Opposition that there is no increased production in this country and that overall figures and so forth are down. Deputy Corry admitted this evening that there was a production of a ton of wheat to the acre. There were not 8 cwt. or 9 cwt. to the acre in 1947. Is that not an increase? Is that not an improvement?

Deputy Derrig who sat on the Government Benches for 20 years wanted to know when the Government would make a statement about reduction in expenditure. There is one matter about which I asked a question this evening. I do not know whether I will be allowed to discuss it or not, but it is a matter arising out of the Budget, as it involves expenditure. It is a question of ships. A lot of money will be required again this year and I am very glad to compliment the Minister and the Government on the news I got this evening in regard to the magnificent shipping programme Irish Shipping are carrying on at the present time. They have dropped their policy of building 10,000 ton ships and are building 9,000 and 2,000 ton ships deadweight.

I feel that would be a matter for discussion in connection with the Department of Industry and Commerce.

It is a source of great consolation to me to know that these ships will be able to enter ports down the country, as well as being able to enter the Port of Dublin. I hope to speak on that. If I have gone off the line and if I have not kept to the Budget, I will do what none of my colleagues in the Dáil did, apologise, having tried the Chair so often.

The most disappointed people in the country to-day are the members of the Opposition, because, during the election and especially during the by-election, they said everything was going up in the Budget. That was their cry. They are very much disappointed because flour, butter and the other necessaries of life remain as they are. I have been here for the introduction of 14 Budgets—one of which was the Supplementary Budget that put Fianna Fáil out of office in 1947. Deputy Aiken was Minister for Finance in that year and he introduced a Supplementary Budget imposing £6,000,000 on the people in the way of taxes on tea, sugar, butter, cigarettes, tobacco and drink. In 1948, when the people got the chance at the ballot boxes, they put that Government out of power.

We came into office and we have no apologies to make for setting up the first inter-Party Government in this country, because, at that time, after 16 years under Fianna Fáil, we had the glasshouse at the Curragh Camp——

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

The first inter-Party Government brought relief to the people in the country in connection with prices, but what was more important they brought peace and harmony to the Irish people. That was some achievement and I was glad to be in a Government that did that.

The Deputy was a member of it?

The Deputy has two Ministers to listen to him now.

And two ex-Ministers.

Quite a distinguished audience.

When this Government came back at the last general election, we made it clear to the civil servants that the arbitration award, the machinery for which was set up by Deputy de Valera, then Taoiseach, would be honoured in full. That was no mean achievement. Does Deputy MacEntee think that our Army, our national teachers, our civil servants and everybody down to the postman in the rural areas should not get a higher rate of pay?

We did not hear a single member of the Fianna Fáil Party during to-day's and last week's discussion say anything about the social welfare benefits that are coming. I heard one Deputy say that the Labour Party was getting a few sops from the Government. In 1932, the Labour Party were promised by Deputy de Valera, that, if they put him into office, the down-trodden people would be looked after. After a very short time, when the Labour Party was pressing for certain things from the Government, what happened? He dissolved the Dáil in the middle of the night and told the people that he could not work with the Labour Party. He went to the country and came back with a majority because he deceived the people then.

There are reliefs in the Budget. The people down the country are not what some Fianna Fáil Deputies think they are. They have common sense. They are satisfied that the price of food has not gone up for the family. Any man who does not like to smoke need not do so. It is not compulsory, whether it be a pipe or a cigarette.

It is not compulsory to eat.

Then they cry about the child with the bottle of lemonade. Would it not be a great thing if they could say that the pint has gone up again? That is what is worrying the Opposition.

Would it not be a greater thing to say it went down?

They are sadly disappointed because the Budget was not a lot worse.

Could it be?

The Deputy should know that.

If the Deputy were here, it would.

I think it could be a lot better.

If Deputy MacEntee had been in power, everyone knows what it would have been.

It would have been better.

We would have no food subsidy.

Have you a food subsidy?

We hear a lot about the balance of payments. When the inter-Party Government left office, having been tricked out of it in 1951——

Tricked?

——by four Independents, and when a Coalition under Deputy de Valera was set up, what happened when they got in by way of a trick? They got in by a trick, a trick of four men.

The "busted" flush.

These four men have not been seen in Leinster House since. I say that if the Opposition have a case to make, they should make it. Their Leader made no suggestion to-day. He kept far away from making any suggestion. He did not say what the Government should do, but he attacked the Labour Party. Can the Labour Party not use its own common sense? We know that the Party in Opposition at the moment has been dictated to over the years by one man. We are here now in an inter-Party Government. Every Party is represented in the Government and that could not be said for the Fianna Fáil Government.

That has nothing to do with the Financial Resolution.

I am glad that the widows and orphans are getting some consideration under this Budget. I am glad that the sick people are getting some relief. God knows it is time that some relief should come to these people, because they have been forgotten all over the years. Do the members of the Opposition say that the sick should not get any relief? They voted here against giving the money that would give them that relief, but will they go down the country, to Galway and elsewhere, and say that they voted against giving that money? No, they will keep away from that and will say that, if they had been in power, the money would have been more.

Let us go back to 1934. At that time, some of the committees of agriculture, including my own in County Wexford, passed resolutions condemning the action of the Fianna Fáil Government in authorising the slaughter of 200,000 calves annually. Was that a good policy?

Whether it was good or bad, the Deputy cannot discuss it on the Financial Resolution.

I want to get it on the records of the House, because on that committee there was a sister of the then Minister for Agriculture.

The Deputy must refrain from making such remarks.

I will, Sir. I have got them on the record now. In the daily paper of 22nd January, 1956, it was stated that the current issue of the Irish Trade Journal had stated that, between July and October of the previous year, 176,000 workers had received wage increases totalling £3,250,000. If Fianna Fáil were in power, that would not happen. The present Tánaiste told us that, when he went into the Department of Industry and Commerce, he found there a Bill for the purpose of making a further standstill Order, so that the workers should not get a further increase in wages. These are facts that cannot be denied. I represent a constituency where we have two Labour representatives. We have a Minister for Social Welfare from Wexford, who is looking after the interests of the people whom I represent, the working people, the unemployed, and the widows. Last year, the old age pensioners got an increase twice in the one year. That was no mean achievement. When we left office, Deputy MacEntee spent £24,000,000 of Marshall Aid money. What did he do with it?

I paid Fine Gael debts.

That is something you should tell the country. That money was squandered by the ex-Minister for Finance and by the present Opposition, the members of which are talking to-day about expenditure and about the Civil Service. Deputy Corry called the civil servants drones. He called professional men who went to college in order to be civil servants drones. That is very unfair because the civil servant is the next man to the Minister in the Department.

We find also that we are up against the fact that poison is being spread throughout the country by the Irish Press. They are poisoning the minds of the people and saying that the country is ruined. That is very bad. This Government is trying to remedy the position the country is in by putting levies on luxury goods. Any man who has a motor car does not mind paying a few extra pence for his petrol, but I would like to remind the Minister of this fact, that the day the Budget was introduced, the extra price was put on to the cigarettes and garages were charging the extra price for petrol that evening. I would like the Minister to keep his eye on that kind of thing and not let the people be fleeced.

We all know that our social benefits are not what they should be. They are not in keeping with those in the country across the water, or with those of our neighbours in the North. There is no use in talking about Partition or about bringing in the North, until we are able to give to the people in the North the conditions they have at present. As far as I am concerned, the Budget is not a bad one and things might be better, if there was more cooperation from the Opposition. There are good men on both sides of the House, but I was disgusted when I heard a statement, made down the country, by the Leader of the Opposition that there is nothing on the Front Bench of the Government but lawyers. That was a bad thing coming from the man who had been head of the State for so many years.

The Deputy cannot discuss it now.

The working-class people are not disappointed with the Budget. They know that taxation must be got from somewhere. They know that the money does not spring up from the floor of Leinster House. Could Deputy MacEntee tell me where he would go for the money, if he had been Minister for Finance? No member of the Opposition has told the House what they would have done if they were in office. They prefer to talk, to jeer and to sneer at what was said during the general elections, but I could remind them of what they said all over the country in those days. I have reason to hope that next year there will be some more concessions and I am sure that as long as my colleague, Deputy Corish, is in charge of Social Welfare, the downtrodden people of this country will not be forgotten.

I do not know what Budget concessions Deputy O'Leary can be referring to unless it is that he takes pleasure at the unfortunate taxpayer having to cough up £5,500,000 in the coming year for housekeeping money for the Government. Of course, if the taxpayer had the knowledge that he was contributing £5,500,000 that would go into capital formation, he might take some comfort from the fact. Deputy O'Leary and his colleagues on the Labour Benches seem to me to have turned into the cheer leaders of the Coalition Government. They come into this House to cheer up the front and the back benches of the Fine Gael Party in order that they may smooth down the national temper, choke unfavourable comment in the country and pave the way for a continuance of this chronic condition in the life of the country. The Government are asking the people of the country to contribute £5,500,000 in extra taxation. For what?

For what? Answer your own question.

The Government is simply squandering money.

The Deputy came into this House under the smokescreen of lower prices. The Deputy was sent in here by the voters of Dublin to reduce the price of cigarettes, beer, tobacco——

——coal, household goods, wearing apparel, and all the rest. The Deputy is a miserable failure in this House from that point of view and the Deputy should not interrupt when another Deputy tries to make a case——

"Tries" is the operative word.

——for the people of the country and for the people of Dublin. The Minister hopes to fleece the taxpayer this year to the extent of £5,500,000 and he hopes to get that £5,500,000 by an extra tax of 5d. on a packet of 20 cigarettes. I have heard various alibis and excuses to-night from the opposite benches about the price of cigarettes. I am indebted to Deputy Moher for making a small calculation while we were listening to the debate and we find on the basis of that calculation that, contrary to what is thought, the 5d. a lb. subsidy on butter means that the Exchequer contributes 16/8 per year towards that subsidy taking our consumption of butter at 40 lbs. per head of the population. I am not making a case against the subsidy on butter but I merely want to point out that if a man or woman smokes 20 cigarettes a day, he or she will contribute £7 12s. a year to the Exchequer.

Surely that is not an average of the cigarette consumption. You gave us the average of butter consumption.

It is a very low average.

For every man, woman and child? Average it over the population.

If he smokes three ounces of tobacco he will contribute £3 18s. Between cigarettes and tobacco they will contribute £11 10s. a year.

It would take Fianna Fáil——

The Minister for Agriculture, having failed miserably to produce one more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough will sit on the Front Benches and take his medicine.

[Interruptions.]

Deputy Carter is in possession and should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

I wish to contrast the attitude of the present Minister for Finance with that of his colleague, Deputy McGilligan, who has now no responsibility as a member of the Government but who, when the Fine Gael Party were looking for votes in the 1954 election, went down to Radio Éireann and on the 8th of May, 1954, broadcast a statement. Here is a quotation from that statement:—

"There was little doubt, he said, that savings in the cost of Government amounting to several million pounds a year could be secured without much effort. A change of policy was all that was required and a new outlook on the part of Ministers was demanded if the reduction of £20,000,000 and upwards desirable in everybody's interests was to be achieved."

I want to ask the various Parties forming the Government where does public responsibility begin or end, if an experienced ex-Minister, as he was at that time, could go down to Radio Éireann and give the people such an assurance in the name of the Fine Gael Party who set themselves up as the leaders in political thought then; if he could go down to Radio Éireann, beg votes on the strength of that promise and, having got, as they deemed it at the time, a mandate to form a Coalition Government, say afterwards that he would take no responsibility, that he would have no part in that Government and that, therefore, he was not responsible for the promises he made then. In fact he admitted in this House that he had really no authority collectively from the Parties that go to make up the Government to make that promise.

I want to query the methods of catching votes, to condemn it and to say that it is a dreadful thing if political thought has descended to such a low level that any Deputy with the amount of experience which Deputy McGilligan has, or had then, can go down to Radio Éireann and broadcast an announcement such as I have quoted in order to gain the votes of the people and cynically to say afterwards: "I did not make the promise. I have no responsibility. I will take no part in the Government." If we are being subjected to brain-washing tactics of that description, where will we end?

On the opposite side.

Does the present Government suggest that the Fianna Fáil Party, who are now in opposition, should go out and outbid them in promises to the electorate? Is that the suggestion? Is that, in effect, what they want us to do? It appears to me to be the tone of political expression at the moment that Fine Gael supporters in the country who are disillusioned and who have become cynical say: "Ah well, if we cannot do it, Fianna Fáil could not do it either."

You had 20 years to do it.

They would not believe you.

The Parliamentary Secretary, with his half-baked economic theories, is a discredited supporter of the Government at the moment and let him not further discredit himself in this House. Another prominent Minister of the present Government, the Minister for Defence, who represents my own constituency——

A great man.

——outbid the whole lot put together when he went down to Sligo and said that Fine Gael would see to it that the Central Fund would undertake responsibility for all future expenditure and for some of the existing expenditure which was at present being met by local rates. That is a quotation from the Sligo Champion of the 20th March, 1954. There is another responsible Minister, who has long experience in and out of Government, cynically disregarding promises——

Was there any extra expenditure on the rates since?

Remember your promises, I must say, which look at this stage as faded and as antiquated——

As Fianna Fáil.

——as the photographs of their long deceased relatives. There were arguments here to-night on the cost of living and on food subsidies. Members of Parties were arguing from the opposite benches trying to make the case that Fianna Fáil would be glad if the food subsidies were removed and that they would be glad, in fact, if beer and other commodities were taxed. I want to make the point, and I think it is worth recording in the House, that Fianna Fáil were in office from 1951 to 1954 and, despite what the Government or its supporters may say about the cost of living, we realise that the cost-of-living index stood at 100 in 1947 and has shot up to 132; it was 99 when the first Coalition took over in 1948.

Ninety-nine?

It was 99 when the first Coalition took over in 1948. If the Deputy wishes, she can go down to the Library and check up on that.

What about wages?

When Fianna Fáil came in to office in 1951 it was 109 and by June, 1954, when the Coalition came back to power, it was 124. It will be seen, then, that the cost of living went up by ten points during the Coalition's first period of office and by a further eight points to date.

What about in between, from 1951 to 1954?

I am taking the full period. It went up a further eight points to date, making a total of 18 points.

You skipped the in-between parts.

As against 15 for our period. Is that clear enough to the Minister?

Fifteen points in three years.

A Deputy made a remark about mud and I could give a little quotation on that. It might help the Deputy's outlook: "Two men looked out from bars; one saw mud, the other saw stars." I do not think the Deputy sees many stars. That, I think, deals in a small way with this argument regarding the cost of living.

Would the Deputy give us the increase in incomes in the two periods, to round it off?

I am giving the figures about the cost of living.

Give us the figures for the increase in incomes, to round it off, so that we can make comparisons.

Many times the Parliamentary Secretary used those figures and tried to paint the picture that Fianna Fáil brought the cost of living higher during their period of Government than during the period of any other Government in history. He tried to paint that picture and he sold that dummy to the electorate in 1954.

Yes. They increased prices and unemployment at the same time, a feat that has seldom been performed in history.

The cost of living increased by a total of 18 points during the Parliamentary Secretary's period of office.

Five years.

As against 15 during our time.

Give us the increases in incomes, to round it off.

There is not even a wisp of evidence that the Government are aware of the crisis that is upon us. It is a crisis. The whole financial statement is in melancholy vein. It sets out our failure in the capital field, our failure as producers and it says, in effect, that we are priced out of every market abroad. It says, in effect, that the full blast is not yet felt. On the strength of that, the Government are asking the taxpayers for a further £5,500,000. All the red lights have been showing against us since the present Minister brought in his first Budget. Like a baby with a toy balloon, he takes great credit for what he has done. The Government, like the drunken driver, have persisted in driving through the red lights.

We stopped the drunken drivers, too.

Would the Deputy tell us what book he has in his hand? It is fascinating me.

It may be. It may be even more so before your period of office is over. What is exercising my attention at the moment is where we are to get this £5,500,000. Of course, it will come principally from the younger people. It will come principally from those who go dancing, from those who smoke cigarettes, from those who take pleasure in an odd drive in a motor car.

The drunken drivers.

The 1952 Budget was counted savage by the supporters of the Coalition.

Hear, hear!

This is a more savage Budget.

Cloak and dagger.

We all know Fine Gael and Labour are delighted at the opportunity of taxing the people more heavily.

And with no idea of what the money is for. According to them, to travel hopefully is better than to arrive. The Government are living on hopes. Every second sentence in the Budget statement is a hope. The Minister hopes for more production; he hopes for more savings; he hopes for more everything.

You are beyond hope.

Deputies must allow Deputy Carter, who is in possession, to speak. Most of the Deputies who are now interrupting have spoken already.

We are trying to keep him on the straight road.

Deputy Coogan is interrupting frequently.

We are fascinated by the blue book.

It is like the ledger the Minister keeps at Ballaghaderreen.

That is not relevant to the debate.

The Minister said he was fascinated by my book. I must tell him off, since he is so persistent in his interruptions.

I was only admiring the Deputy's little book.

It is a most unmannerly interruption.

What is unmannerly in admiring his book? I never saw the like of it in this House during the past 25 years.

It is an ordinary scribbler.

With scribbling.

If the Minister likes, I will give him one during the next day or two. It may help him in his Budget speech.

The Deputy should get back to the Budget debate.

When the Minister for Finance spoke about the monetary situation in presenting the Budget, he was even more dismal. The picture is even blacker than we feared. He stated that, in 1955, for the first time, bank deposits fell by over £13,000,000. He said that bank advances rose by £18,000,000.

And was that melancholy?

Then he goes on to argue in the Budget statement that the figures are closely related to the rise in consumption and in over-spending on luxuries. He states that, of course, in the face of the country's high unemployment rate. I asked a question on the subject in this House last week. We have over 1,000 men unemployed in Longford town and area.

What was it in 1953?

The present Government said we were paupers a couple of years ago. They said the country was pauperised. They tell us now that we are living beyond our means, that we are buying luxuries and that we must stop that. The Minister for Finance catechised the Fianna Fáil Party when he was on this side of the House. He said we were copying Mr. Butler. He himself is now copying Mr. MacMillan. According to Deputy MacBride, we are suffering from anaemia, and he should be an authority.

The Deputy is suffering from more than that.

Deputy MacBride says that the wrong cure has been applied. If so, why does he not get out?

You know the adage about the sinking ship.

He is up the rigging at the moment. He is up in the crow's nest, shouting. There is no comparison between our position and that in Britain. England has high blood pressure; we have anaemia, according to Deputy MacBride. Yet we have Dr. Sweetman doctoring the patient for blood pressure in the same way as Dr. MacMillan is treating the English patient.

The Deputy would want to get the needle.

He would want to take a powder.

This has developed into a peculiar situation.

You said it.

Surely there is no need for Deputy MacBride to associate himself for a moment longer than is necessary with the Minister for Finance, if he thinks the Minister is treating the patient for the wrong disease.

The Deputy would like that.

Surely it is common sense to suggest that if you administer the same medicine to a man suffering from anaemia as you do to a man suffering from high blood pressure, you are bound to kill one or the other.

The Deputy had better get examined after to-night. He is suffering from something.

We have a high rate of unemployment. We have a still higher rate of emigration. I would safely say that we had a higher rate of emigration last year than ever before in history. If we are under-capitalised, why the Minister's credit squeeze? Have the Government any idea of orientating their policy? The Taoiseach said at one time that he was going to orientate the whole policy of the Government. There was an accident when he tried the orientation. It did not come off. We are being treated by the present Government blindly with the same medicine as is used by Mr. MacMillan.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 16th May, 1956.
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