Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1956

Vol. 157 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 65—Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng (D'atógaint).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

"Go gcuirfear an Vóta ar ais le h-aghaidh a h-athbhreithnithe."— (Seán Ó Loingsigh.)

Mr. Dillon

I was discussing Min-Fhéir Teoranta in Bangor-Erris and pointing out to the House that if you wanted to grow grass for the manufacture of grass meal the last place in Ireland to do it is on the blanket bog of Bangor-Erris. When Deputy Lemass, from the depths of his urban ignorance, interposed the intelligent question as to what can be grown on it if not grass, I propose to tell him. There is one thing that we certainly should not grow there and that is grass as a raw material for the grass meal industry, because that grass meal would ultimately be sold to the farmers of this country who would have to use it in the production of live stock and livestock products which subsequently they would have to export and sell in free markets. It is always easy in this country, if you want to try it out on the dog, to produce something at a fantastic price and then force the farmers to use it and, when they have to go and earn a profit on that, to tell them it is their funeral. That is not the policy of this Government.

This Government accepts the proposition that if farmers are required to produce for export on a highly competitive market they ought to be helped so far as it is humanly possible to get their raw materials at the lowest possible penny, that if one of their raw materials be grass meal, they will be allowed to grow the grass for the grass meal at the best possible centre for growing grass for conversion into grass meal and that they will not be driven out into the middle of the bogs of Bangor-Erris in order to grow grass for conversion into grass meal to be consumed in West Cork, Clare or Monaghan, or for conversion into pigs, milk or whatever else the grass meal is ultimately destined to be used for. But Deputy Lemass says: "What are you going to grow on it if you do not grow grass?"

Mr. Allen

Tomatoes.

Mr. Dillon

Another sensible contribution from South Wexford. Tomatoes.

Mr. Blowick

Goodness knows it was as sensible as what they tried.

Mr. Dillon

That is the kind of cod talk that goes on in this country by people who want stunts for the front page of the Irish Press instead of solid work for our people. This Government is not interested in stunts. It does not need stunts in order to carry on its policy. I want to tell Deputy Lemass what the purpose of the research station in Bangor Erris is. We have a very large acreage of bog in this country. We want no research to tell us that from such bog fuel can be derived. We were cutting it over the last seven centuries and burning it on the hearths of the country.

There are certain types of bog in this country which by their location and by their quality may be unsuitable for the production of fuel either for combustion on the bog or transport to centres where it can be consumed on the domestic hearth. It seems to me sensible to inquire with deliberation and with every scientific assistance we can command as to whether this wide area cannot be used for some other purpose than the accommodation of curlew and snipe. To that end we set up a research station at Bangor Erris and one of the things we will inquire into there is as to whether over wide acres of such peat land we could not grow grass in situ for depasturing by suitable live stock and the subsequent transfer of that live stock either to other pasture land in the eastern counties or indeed to the slaughter house if it proves possible under these conditions to finish cattle on crops grown on peat land. Our purpose is to inquire what treatment, if any, will convert that blanket bog into a soil suitable for the production of such crops as oats and it may well be that it is possible with suitable treatment that such could be done.

Mr. Lemass

How many acres have we in other parts of the country that can grow oats?

Mr. Dillon

Thousands, but why not add to that acreage?(Interruptions.) I do not want to use the word ignorant in regard to Deputy Lemass. I do not wish to be offensive.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister has been offensive enough already, so go ahead.

Mr. Dillon

He is ignorant of the fundamentals of this question. If you want to grow grass for conversion into grass meal you go to the optimum site for the growing of grass.

Mr. Lemass

What happened at Gowla?

Mr. Dillon

That story is not told yet.

Mr. Blowick

What did happen? You might inquire.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, what has happened? That story is not told yet. I have dealt with Gowla on another occasion. I am prepared to let the Gowla experiment proceed to its conclusion. I have said here without any concealment, good bad or indifferent, that in my judgment the Gowla experiment is misconceived. But my advice to the Government was—and the Gowla experiment was launched by the Sugar Company under the inter-Party Government from 1948 to 1951—that while I did not understand the procedures advocated in respect of Gowla I felt that where a man of responsibility and, it seemed to me, wide experience and prudence was fortified by technical advice, he might achieve in Gowla what I believed was impossible. My advice to the Government was: "I may be wrong. My technical advisers may be wrong," but where you have a man of this standing and this sense of responsibility coming forward and saying it was his view that it was possible, I said I thought in this case it was my duty to keep out of his light, to give him the financial help without which he could not push his experiment to its conclusion and to give him a free field, with the certain knowledge that if he succeeds, he will have our blessing and benediction and our free admission in public that we were wrong and that without his enterprise this new procedure would never be given the light of day. Was I wrong in taking that view?

Mr. Lemass

Why not do the same in Bangor Erris?

Mr. Dillon

The Gowla story is not yet told.

Mr. Lemass

The Bangor Erris story was never started.

Mr. Dillon

My advice to the Government was that if you go out on to an entirely virgin plot, do not rush out. Certainly do not go there to grow grass for conversion into grass meal. If that is wanted by the national economy, go to Meath, Westmeath, Tipperary, Longford where you have thousands of acres on which you can grow the best grass in Europe at the lowest possible price for conversion into grass meal.

But let us go to Bangor Erris and survey the bog. Let us see if that bog which is not susceptible for use for fuel or for power, can be used for some other purpose, but let us proceed with deliberation, skill, knowledge and science so that the conclusions we arrive at can be fortified by scientific certainty; and on that basis we can then break out on to a wide area of exploitation, once we know by scientific investigation that the techniques we propose to employ on a large scale are guaranteed of success. Deputy Lemass says: "Is all grass not grass?" All grass is not grass. There are forty different types of grass. You can get grass that will be suitable for conversion into grass meal. You will get grass that will be suitable for depasturing sheep. You will get grass that will be suitable for depasturing store cattle and grass that will be suitable for depasturing pigs. Yet, if you put the sheep on the grass suitable for cattle or the cattle on the grass suitable for sheep, or the pigs on the grass suitable for cattle you will get nothing but disaster. But if you approach with calm deliberation the determination of how best to use this land for the purpose for which it is most suitable, you will get something very valuable. However, we will not stop at that. What we hope to do, having investigated and while we are investigating the potentialities for grass, is to investigate the potentialities for horticultural crops.

There are splendid horticultural authorities in this country who say that we ought to be able to establish in Erris conditions, an extensive industry in the growing of asparagus. The demand for asparagus may be limited in this country but in Britain and on the Continent there is great demand for it. However, there is no use in us going down to Erris and sticking down 1,500,000 crowns of asparagus. That is what Deputy Lemass would do and the net result might be that it would not grow. It might not grow because we had omitted to do something appropriate to the growth of asparagus. What we want to do is to find out what horticultural crops could be grown there and what preliminary treatment the soil would require so that they could be successfully grown on a profitable basis. We could then determine whether it would be practicable to establish a costing system to see whether these crops could be marketed on a profitable basis at home and abroad.

Is that a better procedure than to go down to Bangor Erris and grow grass meal for use in Cork or Tipperary; to sell it to farmers in these counties for conversion into milk, which in turn would be converted into butter which would have to be exported because we are now producing enough butter for our own consumption? We are now using part of Bangor Erris as a research station for forestry simply for the reason that we do not know, and nobody can tell us, whether we can grow forests in such conditions. There is no country in Europe, America, or Asia that can give us that information. We are trying to find out for our own benefit, and for the benefit of the rest of the world, how far it is possible to grow forest trees on the class of bog soil provided by blanket bog in close proximity to the Atlantic gales.

Deputy Lemass's procedure would be to rush down and plant 1,000,000 trees. He asks us: "Why do you not plant 1,000,000 trees?" The answer is that the blooming trees might not grow. If Deputy Lemass was doing the job he would rush down there and plant them with a silver trowel and the Irish Press would be there with a picture on the front page of Deputy Lemass planting the millionth tree. However, forestry is based on a 50 years policy and, while I hope that Deputy Lemass has still many a long year in front of him, if he went down there and planted 1,000,000 trees tomorrow he would be dead and buried in an honoured grave in Glasnevin before anyone could say: “Would you look at Lemass's trees?” This country is littered with projects which Deputy Lemass started off with a silver trowel, or a silver spade, or a silver key. These projects are now all in ruins and, on the ruins of them, Deputy Lemass proceeded to erect something else with another silver trowel, or another silver spade or another silver key.

The public memory is short and people forget but when I think of the time we had in Donegal when Deputy Lemass started off with the industrial alcohol factories I can remember that all the farmers were told that they were going to make their fortunes in bringing loads of potatoes to these factories.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this arise relevantly on this Vote?

Mr. Dillon

They were all in the Ceantair Cúnga. All the people were going to become millionaires by growing potatoes. We ended up by importing molasses from Trinidad and converting it into industrial alcohol at a cost of 7/6 a gallon and selling it at 1/2 a gallon.

Mr. Lemass

We ended up by exporting the whole production.

Mr. Dillon

Go fish. At the moment, I am trying to find an industry that will occupy the factory that had to be closed down in Carrickmacross. These factories were started to provide a market for our surplus potatoes and then we reached the stage at which we were importing molasses from Trinidad and converting it into industrial alcohol at a cost of 7/6 a gallon, for sale at 1/2 a gallon. That is only one instance of Deputy Lemass with the silver key, the silver shovel, and the silver trowel in his hand. He would love to be let loose in Bangor Erris now and the silver shovel and the silver key and the silver trowel would be working overtime, but that is all we would get out of it.

Under our procedure we will get valuable scientific certainty of what is practicable on blanket bog in any part of this country and what is the best way of getting the best return out of it. There is a possibility that we may be able to devise procedures which will enable us to turn large barren areas of blanket bog into profit earning land in the immediate future. That may transpire but it may be that there is not any procedure whereby that can be done. I think that there are possibilities whereby such land can be converted into land for the growing of horticultural crops or land which may be used for pasturage and, possibly the growing of oats.

I should tell the House that, although Deputy Derrig seems to be in a confused state of mind about the matter, the procedure at Bangor Erris at present has nothing to do with the reclamation of cutaway bog. The whole object of the Bangor Errisstation is the treatment, of blanket bog. We know how to reclaim cutaway bog and the Department, of Agriculture is at present associated with Bord na Móna in experiments in the utilisation of cutaway bog in the Midlands. The principal methods for the user of cutaway bog are well known to us and the question now is as to which is the most economical method of using it. The question is whether we should utilise cutaway bog as forest land or as arable land. We can do either. We know the techniques. We know now the effective procedures for the conversion of cutaway bog into arable land or forestry land.

Mr. Killilea

Or for the growing of seed potatoes.

Mr. Dillon

I would describe that as arable, land. We have plenty of methods for the utilisation of cutaway bog but, now that Deputy Killilea mentioned seed potatoes, I think that, is one of the projects that we should follow closely in Bangor Erris. I think that blanket bog is capable of seed production of the highest quality. It is, in every circumstance, suitable for the production of disease-free seed potatoes and other horticultural crops. In North Mayo virus free strawberry plants have been produced with success and it may be possible to produce in that area a great variety of disease-free horticultural crops. That is what we are trying to find out in Bangor Erris. It is upon these lines of research that we are deliberately embarking. To Deputy Lemass's magnificent idea—"Why do you not go down and plant grass?"—the answer is because that may be the last place on God's earth to plant grass, but it may be the place of election to plant highly remunerative crops of another kind. The difference between our policy and Fianna Fáil's policy for backward areas is that their policy is: "Why do you not go down and plant grass?" and our policy is: "Let us go to Bangor Erris and find what we may plant there with greatest advantage to the people who live there." And having determined that, let us then manage our affairs so as to provide the maximum employment under the best possible conditions we can secure for people who would otherwise, under Fianna Fáil policy, have to emigrate from that area to earn their living in Birmingham, in Manchester or Leeds.

Now that is the difference and I think I am entitled to say in the presence of the Deputy—Deputy Jack Lynch—who was primarily responsible for this scheme, and I think he will have to concede that it is true that, when he first adumbrated this scheme, I wrote him a letter before he was six months in office saying that I wished him in his new office of responsibility for the Gaeltacht nothing but the fullest success and I implored him, before he committed himself to this enterprise of growing grass in Bangor-Erris, to seek for further and better advice because I felt the whole idea was misconceived and might involve him, in the first big project to which he put his hand, in a catastrophic failure; and I advised him, before he was irrevocably committed to it, to look further and see if better employment could not be found in this area. I think the Deputy concedes that.

Mr. J. Lynch

I have already done so.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. I had a letter back to say that he thought this project was well conceived and he hoped to go forward with it.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am conceding that I got that letter from the Minister, then Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Dillon

I got a civil reply saying that the Deputy had advice and on that advice he proposed to act, rejecting mine, which was fair enough. I did my part and the Deputy did his, and I trust there were no hard feelings thereafter. But I hold the view—it is a view I have always held—that there are potentialities in the area, but the only basis on which they can be exploited is by careful preliminary scientific research: it is for that purpose we have established in Bangor Erris a peat land research station, which ought to have been established 30 years ago but which we have only established now, and which I confidently anticipate will be second to none in Europe and will provide for generations of our people guidance, which will be of substantial economic value to the country as a whole, as to how best to use blanket bog for horticultural and agricultural purposes.

Now we are talking about the Ceantair Cúnga and this particular area. Some of the Deputies beyond referred to grass meal as a source of vegetable protein. It is, and the right place to produce it is where that can be best and most cheaply done. But this Government is providing what I consider to be a very much more valuable form of protein feeding stuff for animals in the shape of fishmeal and all that will be produced in the Ceantair Cúnga. The factories to manufacture it will be built in the congested areas and they will not want any subsidy at all. They will produce a fine valuable product and, if the Irish farmers do not want to use the product, it will be easily saleable in hungry markets abroad, as much as they can produce. And I hope the first will be built in Killybegs and I hope there will be many more built in the fishing ports of this country to which our fishermen, in boats supplied by our Government, will bring the herring in ever-increasing quantity to be converted into fishmeal in so far as the fresh market or the curing market does not require the fruits of their labour. The boats in which that herring will be brought ashore will be built in the Ceantair Cúnga by Irish workers, who require no subsidy for building better boats at lower prices than those at which they can be produced in any boatyard in the world. The only reason why we are not exporting boats from these boatyards is because we are buying all the boats they can produce; and we will continue to buy all the boats they can produce as far forward as I can see and we will sell them at their full economic value to our own fishermen who will be assisted to pay for them over the years out of the produce of their catch. All the men working on the boats will be residents of the Ceantair Cúnga and they will be beholden to nobody for, for every shilling that they earn, they will give 18 pence of value to the community.

Is not that the right kind of employment to provide in the Ceantair Cúnga? Fianna Fáil's whole attitude to the congested areas, since they first appeared in the public life of Ireland, was to turn the people of my part of the country into paupers. That is what they wanted to do. Our policy has been to bring within the reach of the people of Mayo and Galway and West Donegal and West Kerry the chance to earn their living by providing 18 pence of value for every shilling they receive. Now I ask you, in regard to fish, boat building and such activities, is not every man working in them earning his living as fairly and as honestly as any other creature in this country, and a damn sight more honestly than some?

Mr. Bartley

The Minister is not taking credit for all that, is he?

Mr. Dillon

All what?

Mr. Bartley

That scheme that he is talking about now—fishmeal and boats.

Mr. Dillon

I don't give a fiddle-de-dee who gets the credit.

Mr. Bartley

That is what the Minister is trying to get.

Mr. Dillon

The facts are that Fianna Fáil was in office in this country from 1932 to 1948 and not one blooming fish's tail was ever converted into fishmeal. A fishmeal factory will be built now. Fianna Fáil was in office for 16 years, and the boatyards were closing down. They have been opening up since we came into office. Come, now! Is it true, or is it not true, that Fanny's Bay boatyard was left derelict by Fianna Fáil? Is it true, or is it not true, that I went down myself and reopened it? Is it true, or is it not true, that the boatyard below in Baltimore was lying derelict? Is it true, or is it not true, that we bought it and reopened it? Is it true, or is it not true, that the Dingle boatyard was practically closed down? Is it true, or is it not true, that we reopened it and that it is now in active operation? Is it true, or is it not true, that since 1948 the inshore fishermen of this country have got more boats from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara than they got in the previous 16 years? Is it true, or is it not true, that the inland fishermen have more and better boats to-day than they had after 18 years of Fianna Fáil? Do not be bluffing me. I know too much about you.

Mr. Bartley

What about the post-war planning?

Mr. Dillon

Post-war, my foot! Look, Fianna Fáil has us all sick with plans. There were plans in 1932 and there were plans in 1948, and, if we did not accept the plans, Ireland was doomed. And Deputy Lemass came out with another plan last year in which we were to spend £20,000,000 the first year, £40,000,000 the second year, £80,000,000 the third year, £100,000,000 the fourth year, and only God knows how much in the fifth year, and there was to be employment for 100,000 more than are working now. By jove, the emigrants would have been coming back again. Do you remember how we were to bring them back in 1932, boat loads of them coming drifting in on every tide?

Mr. J. Lynch

Like the building workers who came back from England, but they were not long here when they had to go back again.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us keep to the Gaeltacht and the Ceantair Cúnga.

Mr. Dillon

It will be less embarrassing for Deputy Lemass if we do. Devil-a-much trouble he took about the Gaeltacht. Let us keep right now about the Gaeltacht. These figures that I have here are not the fruits of a programme forecast for the next 20 years. These are the figures of a policy and the results of that policy in the years that are gone by. These are not figures, the figment of some man's imagination. These are figures one can go down and look at growing, growing as they never grew before.

These are the plantings of forest done, and most of it done in the Ceantair Cúnga. Let us hear the figures. Mark you, planting a forest means that you sow the seed in Ireland; you grow the plants in Ireland; you transfer them to the nursery in Ireland; and you plant them out in their permanent bed in Ireland. There are no alibis that you cannot get supplies from abroad; they are all grown here.

Let us look at the figures. In 1947/48, 6,000 acres planted; 1948/49, 7,700; 1949/60, 7,000; 1950/51, 9,000. And then the plants began to come out of the nurseries that Deputy Blowick opened. Is that true, or is it not true? Does it not take three years to grow the plants to plant out a forest?

Mr. Blowick

They do not know.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose they do not, poor things. But it does, just the same as it takes a cow nine months to have a calf, a pig five months to have a bonham and a hen 24 hours to have an egg——

Mr. Lemass

And this Government 100 years to have an idea!

Mr. Dillon

Not at all; the facts will answer him. This is no plan for the expenditure of £100,000,000 or £200,000,000.

Let us get back to the figures. In 1951/52, 14,900; in 1952/53, 12,400; 1953/54, 12,400; in 1954/55, 13,992 and 1955/56, 15,000 acres. The number of men employed on forestry in Ireland in 1948 was 1,262. The number of men employed in 1956 is 5,346. That is work done.

Mr. Blowick

That is not "plans".

Mr. Dillon

Not plans. But now, before we go out to plant an acreage of forest on bog, we are going to find out, in so far as it is humanly possible to do so, will the forest grow. If it will, we will plant it; if it will not, we will not.

I am sorry that Deputy Geoghegan has left the House. There is a practice growing up in this House, which I deplore, of Deputies complaining bitterly that we are failing to "deliver the goods" in respect of the Ceantair Cúnga. The last time this Estimate was before the House Deputy Geoghegan had to tell me that a number of persons in whom he was interested had failed to have their grants paid to them. I asked Deputy Geoghegan would he be kind enough to give me particulars of these cases so that I might investigate. He said "certainly". I waited a week and I got no word from Deputy Geoghegan. Then I wrote to Deputy Geoghegan to say that perhaps he had overlooked this, that it had escaped his memory, and might I request him to give me particulars of the cases. I got no answer from Deputy Geoghegan. Then I wrote again and said: "Perhaps my first letter has miscarried but I am worried about these people, whom you say we failed to make provision for though they were entitled to it." I am still waiting for the reply.

I was principally concerned to intervene in this debate to deal with the codology of Min Fhéir Teoranta. But I was also concerned to intervene in the debate in order to introduce some note of reality into it after all the tripe talked by members of the Fianna Fáil Party. Our purpose in the congested areas is to provide the people who live there with decent employment, producing economically under decent conditions, and my submission to Dáil Éireann is that our effort in the few years since we first put our hand to the job has been attended with very considerable success.

I believe that by patient perseverance we can greatly improve on what we have already done. But over and above the enterprises of fishery, forestry, boat-building and peat land research, with which I have dealt, I want to say that in the congested areas, as in every other part of Ireland, there is one work that should take priority over all others. And that is the exploitation of the land. People are sometimes inclined to assume that all the land in the congested areas is virtually and. That is nonsense. The land of the greater part of the congested areas can be made to yield, for those who own it and work it at the present time, not less than twice what it is at present producing. I say with the fullest deliberation as Minister for Agriculture that the land of the congested areas can be made to produce not less than twice what it is producing at present.

In the vast majority of congested holdings in Ireland of ten to 15 acres we could, by the introduction of proper procedures, convert them to morrow into the equivalent of 20 or 30 acre holdings, if we were to measure them by their yield. And the key to that is simple, if we could but carry conviction to the minds of the people of the congested areas to implement it. It can be summed up in three words: phosphates, potash and lime. If we could put out on every acre of the congested areas that wanted it two ton of ground limestone—and there are areas, particularly in the north of Clare, where that procedure would be unnecessary and there are other areas where that procedure would be unnecessary as far as lime is concerned— and if we could get out on every statute acre of the congested areas not less than four cwt. of 40 per cent. super and one cwt. of muriate of potash, we could precipitate a revolution in the standard of living of the people living in the congested areas.

If any Deputy in this House really wants to serve the congested areas, I suggest to him that he should join with me in trying to carry conviction to the minds of his constituents living in those areas that the key to their deliverance can be formulated in three words: phosphates, potash and lime. There is the real way in which we can raise the standard of living in the congested areas. All else is ancillary to that fundamental task. I think the ancillaries have their importance, and that is why I intervened in this debate in order to emphasise them; but I would be doing less than my duty if I did not emphasise to the House that, no matter what we do at Bangor Erris, no matter what we do on the seashore, no matter what we do in boat-building, no matter what we do in the development of horticulture, all is of secondary importance compared with the arable land. And there is no knowledge available to the human mind which we lack effectively to remedy the problem that exists there. There is nothing wanting to us to complete, the task of doubling the standard of living of all our people living in that area. The only thing we have so far failed to do is to make known, and to carry conviction to those to whom we wish to carry it, that the instrument of their deliverance from the low standard of living they at present have to a relatively high one is phosphate, potash and lime. The tragedy is that where a thing is simple, it is often overlooked. If it were something sensational, dramatic, incomprehensible, perhaps to a great many of us, it would be eagerly investigated as something novel, arresting and worth while. The very simplicity of the essential in this case is the greatest obstacle we have to getting it accepted by the people to whom it means most.

I would wish to end my observations in this House by asking Deputies on every side to join with me in persuading the people living in the congested areas of this country that they have a duty to themselves and to the land on which they live to use phosphate, potash and lime.

Mr. Lemass

In regard to this North Mayo grass meal factory, I would like to occupy the Dáil's time for a few minutes in segregating tripe from truth, to use the elegant phrase of the Minister for Agriculture. Is it not a fact that the directors of the grass-meal project, with the backing of their technical experts, none of whom, so far as I know, had the privilege of being born in Capel Street, certified that they could produce grass meal of the highest quality in Bangor Erris at a cost of less than £23 per ton and sell it at a price—£28 per ton—which would recover all their overheads, the interest on the investment and yield a substantial profit? Will any member of the Government answer that question truthfully?

We know that, when this matter was debated before, the Minister for Finance gave figures here which he represented as having come from the directors of the company which they have since repudiated. Can we get the truth from the Government now? Did not the experts in that company, through the directors of the concern, convey to the Government their belief that they could produce and sell from Bangor Erris grass meal of the highest quality at £28 per ton?

Mr. O'Donovan

Who are these experts. If the job was never done before in this country or anywhere else, who could the experts be?

Mr. Lemass

The manager of the concern was a Mr. Con Murphy of Cork and he had previous experience in the management of bogs for that purpose in the employment of the Irish Sugar Company. The names of the directors are known. Many of them will, I think, be regarded as people whose ability to express a competent opinion is unquestionable.

Mr. O'Hara

A garage proprietor.

Mr. O'Donovan

On something that was never done before.

Mr. Lemass

It is a question here, I will admit, of the reliability——

Mr. O'Hara

A garage proprietor.

Mr. Lemass

Well, a garage proprietor. There was a board of directors there composed of people of recognised competence and standing in the county and they had technical experts at their disposal who were the best people who could be chosen to do the job.

Mr. O'Donovan

Who——

Mr. Lemass

Shut up, you idiot. I am not going to be interrupted.

Mr. O'Donnell

On a point of order, is the Deputy within the limits of parliamentary debate in referring to the Parliamentary Secretary in that way?

Mr. Lemass

I am becoming fed up. Every time I stand up here to speak that one Deputy keeps interrupting. I am not going to stand for it.

Mr. Blowick

That does not give Deputy Lemass the right to say to Deputy O'Donovan or any other Deputy: "Shut up you idiot."

Mr. Derrig

He has a right to shut up, whether he is an idiot or not.

Mr. Lemass

I withdraw the phrase, but I think it is excusable if I lose my temper. I have as much right to speak as any other Deputy. I am not going to be continuously interrupted by the Parliamentary Secretary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary should cease interrupting.

Mr. Derrig

And he ought to go out of the House altogether if he cannot sit here without interrupting.

Mr. Blowick

Is he to be beaten out?

Mr. Lemass

I will admit that in North Mayo the development was very largely experimental. There had been previous experiments conducted by the sugar company, first in Kerry and later in the Gowla Bog of North Galway, which gave every reason to hope that the experiment would be successful. Is it not a fact—I again ask the question—is it not a fact that this company to whom the experiment was entrusted, the board of directors, very competent people, who are not to be insulted here as I was insulted——

Mr. O'Donovan

I had no intention of insulting them.

Mr. Lemass

I am referring to the personal remarks of the Minister for Agriculture. I am asking did this board of directors, who had competent people at their command, not give their opinion for what it is worth, having regard to the extent to which their experiment had proceeded, that they could produce high quality grass meal from the North Mayo bog and sell it at a profit at £28 a ton? I think some member of the Government should answer that question. When they are answering that question will they say what is the present price of grass meal, what price does a farmer now requiring it have to pay for it?

Is it not a fact that there is inadequate production of grass meal in the country at the present time? Were not many farmers who required grass meal for their production last year unable to obtain it?

Deputy Dillon spoke here in his usual extravagant manner to suggest that if the North Mayo experiment had been allowed to proceed the farmers of this country requiring grass meal would have to pay more for it than the price at which they would otherwise obtain it. Did he not suggest that one of the consequences of allowing that experiment to proceed was that the price of grass meal would have to be increased? Is it not a fact that the directors and management of the Mayo concern estimated that they could sell at a profit high quality grass meal at a substantially lower price than it is now obtaining?

The Government have said that they have substituted for that grass meal development a peat experimental station in North Mayo, a station to explore various possibilities of developing the blanket bog of Bangor Erris for production of one kind or another. How many acres of blanket bog are there in North Mayo? How many of these acres were required by the grass meal project? Why was it necessary to close down that grass meal development in order to have this experimental station? Did the grass meal undertaking of North Mayo involve utilisation of 10 per cent. of the total acreage of blanket bog in that area? Is it not a fact that, so far as the Gowla bog development of Bord na Móna has proceeded, it is giving every indication of being a remarkable success? Is it not a fact that the agents of the Sugar Company are right now in Bangor Erris recruiting workers, who would have been employed upon the Bangor Erris job, to come and work in Gowla? Did over 40 workers not travel last week from Bangor Erris to Gowla to get in Gowla the employment on the bog there that they would have had in the Bangor Erris bog, if this Government had not decided to close down that development?

I admit I am not an expert on agricultural matters. I travelled down to Gowla bog and what I saw there moved me to say that it was a development which held out a greater prospect for the West of Ireland than anything I had previously heard of. It indicated the development of scientific means by which acres of unproductive and almost uninhabited land along the western seaboard could be made productive of wealth. Surely there was an obligation on any Government, taking its responsibility seriously, to enable that development to proceed? It did not appear likely to fail but, if there was even a 50-50 chance of success, should that chance not have been taken? Was there any reason why that development was closed down by this Government except that they knew it was started by Fianna Fáil and that its success might redound to the credit. of Fianna Fáil? Therefore, they decided to kill it before it got an opportunity of showing its potentialities.

Mr. Blowick

That is not true.

Mr. Lemass

Was there any single member of the board of the company, was there any single officer of the company, was there anybody associated with the previous developments in Gowla or Kerry, was there any expert in the service of the company which had conducted these experiments that did not condemn the decision of the Government to close down the Bangor Erris development? Was there anyone for it besides the members of the Government and perhaps a few troglodytes in the darker recesses of the Department of Agriculture?

The Minister for Agriculture said there are 12,000,000 acres of arable land in this country and that grass could be grown in Meath and other places in Ireland far more easily than in Mayo. Is that the factor that will determine decisions affecting western development? Is it not known that it is from Mayo, Bangor Erris and other places on the western seaboard that the highest emigration is taking place? Should it not be the main aim of Government policy to put into these areas every possible prospect of productive development which would retain the population there? Was the decision to develop the Bangor Erris bog for grass meal—instead of promoting the same grass meal project in Meath or elsewhere—not based mainly on the desire to provide employment in Bangor Erris? That decision was not a new one. It was a decision similar to that taken on many previous occasions. When the development and extension of the sugar industry were being considered here—away back in 1933—the experts told us not to put a sugar factory in the West. They told us the fourth sugar factory would be more likely to be successful from an economic point of view in some eastern county. However, we put it in the West, not because we thought the experts were wrong but because it was Government policy to promote developments of that kind in the West and to take a chance in doing so.

When we passed the Undeveloped Areas Act here to encourage all other kinds of industrial development in the West, there were experts who told us that these industries, if they were developed at all, would be more likely to be successful from a commercial point of view in Dublin or Cork. Nevertheless, we took the decision to try and have industries established in the West because we believed not merely that the West would benefit, not merely that it was a desirable national aim to check the emigration from the West, but that ultimately the whole national economy would be strengthened if that development could be promoted.

This Government, I admit, can give few signs of having any policy of any kind. Their decisions vary from day to day and are justified, in so far as any justification is offered, by arguments which are mutually contradictory. If there is any desire on the part of the Government to do what the Minister for Agriculture has now been talking about, namely, to prevent the pauperisation of the people of the West, to give them an opportunity of earning, by their labours, reasonable livelihoods in their own country, it is by such methods as we attempted, including the promotion of the production of grass meal in Bangor Erris, that it can be done. It was a deplorable day that the Government allowed spite to lead them to the decision to stop that development, and spite is the only explanation for their decision.

Mr. Blowick

Why did you close down the alcohol factories, so?

Mr. Lemass

We did not. The alcohol factory in Ballina was not closed down.

Mr. Blowick

That is twisting. It was closed down so far as the production of alcohol is concerned.

Mr. Lemass

It was decided to convert it to the production of starch.

Mr. O'Hara

Glucose.

Mr. Lemass

Glucose is a raw material for the production of starch.

Mr. Blowick

Did the Deputy not promise this House that alcohol would be sold at 2/6 a gallon whereas the lowest price at which it was ever sold was 7/6?

Mr. Lemass

Nonsense.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Lemass, without interruption.

Mr. Lemass

So far as industrial alcohol was concerned, these factories were originally started in 1933, for the primary purpose of providing an outlet for surplus potatoes and for maintaining a minimum price for potatoes. That was their primary purpose—to put a floor under the price of potatoes at a time when the market was exceedingly depressed. They were operated during the war to produce industrial alcohol to supplement our meagre supplies of petrol. They were used for the production of industrial alcohol after the war and, for a time, we were able to sell the whole of their production on the export market at a profit. Then, when conditions changed again, we decided to give them a greater assurance of permanency by changing from the production of industrial alcohol to the production of glucose and starch.

Mr. Blowick

How many?

Mr. Lemass

All that could be converted for that purpose.

Mr. Blowick

That is only one.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Blowick

Are the two in Donegal working?

Mr. Lemass

One of them is working. The Minister should find out what he is talking about.

Mr. Blowick

I just want to see exactly how much the Deputy is keeping in touch with things.

Mr. Lemass

Even if it were true, which it is not, that that project or any other project attempted in the West of Ireland did not succeed, I would not apologise for it. We have got to try and we cannot hope that everything we put our hand to will be 100 per cent. successful. Surely we can only find out what can be done by attempting it? When a development such as the Bangor Erris grass meal project is started, that has behind it the best technical advice we can get and is directed by the best people we can choose, and is killed at the stage where it is coming into production, well, it is an indication that the wrong mentality is working. Why was that enterprise not allowed to prove whether it could succeed or not? The answer is that the Government were afraid it would succeed. That is the reason why they killed it in time.

I hope the day will come when the success of the Gowla experiment will get another Government to repeat it not merely in Bangor Erris but in many other parts of the West where it offers a prospect of bringing into production hundreds of thousands of acres of waste land. That will not be done in five or ten years or perhaps in my lifetime but we did start something that can be of ultimate benefit to all the people of these areas. Why are you stopping it?

The Minister for Agriculture has been talking about emigration. I do not think there is anybody who is seriously concerned about the trend of affairs in this country who was not shocked very deeply by the census figures published last week. We can waste time, if we like, on the childish arguments of the Minister for Agriculture as to whether Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael are to be blamed for that situation. Let us admit straight away that all we have done in national development in the past 25 years has not succeeded in bringing about the economic and social conditions that we desire to see here—the economic and social conditions that some of us believe it is still possible to produce here. Have this Government any idea of their responsibilities and their duties, on the publication of these figures, other than to try to shift responsibility on to their political opponents? They are the Government now and if anything is to be done in this year to arrest present trends it is they who have to do it and they will not be able to excuse themselves to the country by trying to put the blame on to the Parties in opposition to them. Those of us who have been associated in a personal way with the movement to establish here an independent Irish State and who saw that independent State come into being are not going to sit idle in a period of emergency and to see it die.

This is a situation which, as I stated during the debate on the Finance Bill, calls for drastic and urgent treatment, even for revolutionary action, and, so far as we are concerned, we are prepared to give the Government any powers they think they need for the purpose of dealing with that situation. We will give them full support in any good proposals which they can produce for dealing with it. Unfortunately, however, the Government appear to be complacent about the matter and will not face up to their responsibilities, or come forward with any proposals or plans. They will not even reveal their minds to this House much less attempt to give any leadership to the country.

Mr. O'Hara

You were a long time there and did not take any action. The Government have appointed a Minister for the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Lemass

You have not done that yet, but you have been a long time talking about it. What a Minister without executive powers is going to do, I do not not know.

Mr. O'Hara

You were there for 20 years and did not do anything about it.

Mr. Blowick

What about the figures on which you were challenged?

Mr. Lemass

I thought about it in 1952. I went down to Gowla bog and I saw there enough to encourage me to support the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy Jack Lynch, in establishing a similar development in Bangor Erris.

Mr. O'Hara

It took you a long time.

Mr. Lemass

Of course I never realised the possibilities before that, but, when we realised the possibilities, we got on to it and Deputy Jack Lynch and others pressed that action be taken. We took the action, but you have stopped it.

Mr. O'Hara

It was belated action.

Mr. Lemass

When we came into office in 1932, we did not think we could undo in one or two years all the economic consequences of hundreds of years of external rule and ten years of a Cumann na nGaedheal Government. We did our best and we produced a lot of good results from what were mere ideas in the beginning. We took advantage of these ideas and tried them out and their possibilities. In the world of to-day, technical and scientific developments have increased the scope of what can be done, but we have a Government in office who are not prepared to try anything and are merely concerned with ensuring that they get credit for everything that turns out to be good, even though they may not have had anything to do with it, and trying to blame those in opposition to them for anything that turns out to be to the detriment of the national position.

Mr. Blowick

Does the Deputy really think that the grass meal scheme was a success?

Mr. Lemass

I have stated before that, while I do not claim to be an agricultural expert, we got the opinion of these experts and they said that it would be a success, and I was prepared to back their opinion to the limit.

Mr. O'Hara

A garage proprietor and a county engineer are not experts on grass meal.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is now referring to people who have a high standing in the life of Mayo and whose integrity is beyond question. These people expressed the view that the scheme would be a success and that was good enough for me.

Mr. J. Lynch

The chief adviser to the Sugar Company was on the board.

Mr. Lemass

It is a poor excuse for Government action if they have to indulge in personal abuse of myself, as the Minister for Agriculture has done to-day, or in personal abuse of the persons who were on this board.

Mr. O'Donnell

No effort was made to indulge in personal abuse of the members of that board.

Mr. Lemass

They were referred to as a garage man and an engineer, in a disparaging way.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not think there was any intention of taking from their integrity or insulting them in any way. That was never intended by anyone.

Mr. Lemass

I accept that. The experts were in the services of the company and local businessmen were on the board. We decided to ensure that the business representatives on the board would be local people, who had experience of business management and who would be able to check on the estimates and the views of the experts on their staffs.

If I am correct in saying that the Gowla experiment has been a success, how much more advantageous would it have been to bring into production in the West of Ireland thousands of acres of hitherto undeveloped land? Surely that was a worthwhile expansion and an experiment which we should have continued?

Mr. Blowick

When the first one is proved a success, yes.

Mr. Lemass

It has, in my opinion, gone far enough to justify itself.

Mr. Blowick

Those who worked on it did not think that.

Mr. Lemass

They have produced a high quality grass meal and sold it at a profit.

Mr. Fagan

If you were a feeder, you would not think that. I have fed both sorts and I know.

Mr. Lemass

I was told by these people that they had a considerable number of inquiries from abroad for their product if they wanted to export it and I understand that the North Mayo undertaking had similar inquiries from abroad and that they could have sold their product on the export market if they were interested. I think that if there was much more production than there is now on the lands of Meath and elsewhere, it would still be insufficient to meet the current demands. Consequently those concerned had no need to consider the export possibilities. They could have disposed of the whole production which they then had in contemplation within this country.

I think that the members of the Government are uneasy in their conscience about that decision and that is the explanation why the Minister for Agriculture was brought in here to-day to indulge in a flamboyant speech and make criticisms of myself, the factory management and anything else. In their decision the Government were acting against the advice of those competent to give expert opinion and against the unanimous recommendations of the board of the undertaking. That is the fact and if it is not so then let some Minister get up and say it is not so.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. O'Donovan)

I had no intention of intervening, were it not for the course the debate has taken. If there was any point in the speech of Deputy Lemass, it was that the Government stopped the grass-meal experiment simply because of spite and because it was started by Fianna Fáil and they were afraid it would succeed. I would, personally, not at any time have anything to do with any Government which stopped any project just because it had been started by a previous Government which they had succeeded. When I interrupted Deputy Lemass eventually——

Mr. Lemass

When you provoked me.

Mr. O'Donovan

I did not intend to provoke the Deputy. On that point, all I wanted to do when I provoked the Deputy was to say that I had no intention whatever of reflecting on the experts who were on this board, but that they were entitled to defend themselves and, as people defending themselves, they made the best case they could for themselves. The present Government gave its decision on that project. I do not see how any man could be an expert from a practical point of view on some project that had not come to a conclusion. That is simply a piece of logic and, if you can tear it to pieces, that is O.K. with me. I do not see how, until a project has been in operation for a number of years, any group of men could say it would be a success——

Mr. Lemass

Or a failure.

Mr. O'Donovan

I agree with Deputy Lemass, because some scientific discovery might be made which would mean that the thing might become a success, but on the facts as they then were, the Government certainly did not come to a political decision in regard to Min Fhéir Teoranta: they came to a decision on the economics of it.

Mr. Allen

What proof had they of the economics of it?

Mr. O'Donovan

Plenty of proof. We knew that the price of grass meal was. We knew that you could grow grass best——

Mr. Allen

And your experts knew nothing?

Mr. O'Donovan

I am not saying the experts knew nothing. I am simply arguing you cannot be an expert on a proposition which is not complete.

Mr. Allen

But the Government set themselves up as experts.

Mr. O'Donovan

I would say this: Deputy Lemass referred to the troglodytes of the Department of Agriculture, but I know that an official of the Department of Agriculture who has since retired and who is by no means an opponent of the Party opposite, advised that that effort should not be made. I do not know whether that man was an expert or not—it is not for me to say—but he is a man whose opinion was asked and he advised that Bangor Erris was the wrong place to grow grass for the production of grass meal.

I want to point out the difference in policy of Fianna Fáil in relation to this and to another aspect of the Gaeltacht areas. They set up that company to produce grass in competition with a big number of existing firms, and mark you, these firms did not like it at all. That is quite obvious. But let me say this, when An Foras Tionscail was in operation, the undeveloped areas project which was established by the Fianna Fáil Government, it was, as I understand it, given a directive that no industry should be started in the West of Ireland that would compete with an established industry anywhere in the rest of the country. What was the result? The result was that expenditure was negligible while the Party opposite was in office. That expenditure has increased substantially in the last couple of years and I hope it will increase still more. But I must say this: if the policy were to be continued that under no circumstances would you allow in the undeveloped areas a new industry to be started or a grant to be given by An Foras Tionscail because it would compete with industries in the rest of Ireland, you might as well close it down straight away.

Deputy Lemass, for all his talk about experimentation, did not do a thing. It got nowhere. There were one or two grants at first and then a complete shut down. I do not know who was responsible for that, whether it was the troglodytes or not, but it happened, and Deputies know it happened. Deputy Lemass quotes experts one minute when it suits him, and ignores the experts the next minute. What about the four turf stations? One of them, the one at Screebe, I remember, was the subject of a ridiculous question by Deputy Geoghegan, who asked what kind of racket was preventing turf being produced for those turf stations. He wanted to know what was the agency preventing this station from getting turf. We saw the figures, 300 tons of turf for a station that required 30,000 tons— enough for two days.

What will be produced this year for it? What will be produced for the one in Kerry? What are these stations costing? Anybody who wants to do so can get up and contradict this—I believe they cost £250,000 apiece. What was the expert advice given on that? Anybody who likes can answer. The Party opposite are prepared to take advice from experts one minute and go against it in the next minute. We were told they had to take the advice of experts on the main roads. That advice was accepted and we were told they could not attend to the county roads and the other roads, because of the advice of the experts. Why did they spend £1,000,000 on four of these hand-won turf stations? I do not know what is going to happen them. Frankly, I hope they will be a success. I hope the demand for power in this country will grow so much that they will be successful, even now. But they are not going to be successful in the immediate future—there is no doubt about that.

I should like to get back to something that has run through this debate, the policy of the present Government and the policy of the last Government. Deputy Lemass made a fair enough point that nobody knows what the Government are thinking. The Government are not going to shout "crisis", when there is no crisis. Of course the Government are concerned with many matters. The Government set about their work carefully and the Government will produce projects— there is no doubt whatever about that. I think they might produce them a lot sooner than the Deputies opposite think, but we are not going to carry on with this business we had here, as I remember, happened for years, when we were given the solution of a crisis when it was over. I saw this happen time and again.

The Minister for Lands, in his forestry programme, has already planted in Mayo, the county we are talking about, 8,000 acres of forestry. That programme will keep in permanent employment——

Mr. Derrig

Not for years.

Mr. O'Donovan

——over 5,300. I saw the figures, but I am not being positive about them. According to the figures read out by the Minister for Agriculture, there are 5,346 people employed at the moment and the bulk of that employment is all-the-year-round employment. At the beginning it was not, because you had only the winter planting, but we may take it now that well over 80 per cent. of that will be all-the-year-round employment.

I should like to end on the same note as that on which I commenced. I had no intention whatever of reflecting on the people who defended themselves, people who had been given a job to do by the Government of this country and who, if they felt there was any reflection on them by the succeeding Government, defended themselves. But how any man could be an expert in a practical way on something that had never been done is a question to which I would like an answer.

Mr. O'Donnell

Deputies Breslin, Bartley, myself and others who come from Irish-speaking parts of the country are certainly amazed at the turn this debate has taken. We are primarily concerned with the Gaeltacht. Instead of giving employment in the congested areas, we would have cleared all the people at present working there and try to extend the pockets of the Gaeltacht out into those congested areas and thus try to preserve the language.

See what has been done down through the years for the people of the Gaeltacht. I think it was Deputy Lemass who mentioned the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government. That Government were but a few years in office when they set up the Gaeltacht Commission. That commission travelled every inch of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht, which were then much more extensive than they are to-day. That commission came to certain conclusions as to what should be done to retain the Irish-speaking districts and, if possible, to extend them, but no sooner was that report published than the Cumann na nGaedheal Government went out of office.

Then what happened? The Gaeltacht was neglected; it was allowed to dwindle into small pockets in the western and southern sea coasts. It is true some effort was made by Fianna Fáil to give the people of the Gaeltacht better houses under the Gaeltacht (Housing) Acts. But how were those Acts administered? First of all, to qualify for a grant for a new house, an Irish speaker had to undertake to demolish the house in which he was residing. If the son or daughter of that man wanted to get married and take advantage of the Acts, they could not do it because they did not own a house of their own which they could demolish. As a result of that kind of administration, the people were driven out; they were cleared out of the Gaeltacht areas. The Acts should have been amended to permit any Irish speaker to take advantage of the grants to build a home for himself.

At the same time, under the 1933 Land Act, Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht were prohibited from giving a parcel of land as a site for a house to their sons or daughters, simply because it was decided by Fianna Fáil that these holdings were uneconomic and should not be subdivided. Every person who got married in the Gaeltacht had to provide or buy a new house, or else get out. Let me assure the House that, if you amalgamated 20 of these holdings in the Gaeltacht, you would not make an economic holding out of them. In fact, if you amalgamated the whole Gaeltacht, you still would not have an economic holding. A considerable amount of damage to the Gaeltacht was done under the Gaeltacht (Housing) Acts and under the Land Act of 1933.

Another method adopted by the previous Government was to pull out by the roots entire Irish-speaking families from Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Cork and to plant them in unnatural surroundings in the Midlands. Is it any wonder the numerical strength of the Gaeltacht has dwindled down through the years? Instead of pushing from the Fíor-Ghaeltacht Irish speakers into the Breac-Ghaeltacht, pushing those in the Breac-Ghaeltacht out to the fringes, and those surrounding the Breac-Ghaeltacht into the Midlands, Fianna Fáil plucked Irish-speaking families and planted them in the Midlands.

It is only by resettling the Irish speakers in their own locality that you can ever hope to revive the Irish language. There is always difficulty in following the various dialects, but when you have a conglomeration of these dialects such as we have in Gibbstown, I think we are doing more damage than good to the language. If we had even concentrated on taking the people from the fringes of the Breac-Ghaeltacht, planting them in the Midlands and replacing them with people from the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and from the Breac-Ghaeltacht, we would have been doing something to give encouragement and some sort of economy to the Irish speakers. I was amazed to hear the former Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy J. Lynch, saying that agriculture was the only method of retaining Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. J. Lynch

The fundamental method.

Mr. O'Donnell

Does Deputy Lynch realise what the agricultural land of the Gaeltacht is? Does he realise the most you can ever expect there is market gardening or some such thing?

Mr. J. Lynch

I developed my argument on those lines.

Mr. O'Donnell

One could scarcely call it agriculture in the usual sense. Personally, I believe if there is any method of maintaining or expanding the Gaeltacht, it is by turning it into a kindergarten, a primary school, a secondary school and a university for the Irish language. I think if we could have every house in the Gaeltacht occupied by students for the full 12 months of each year, we would be doing much more for the Gaeltacht and something to advance the economy of the Irish speakers.

Mr. Bartley

Is the Minister not contradicting the Minister for Agriculture on the question of agriculture? Did the Minister for Agriculture not say that the development of agriculture was the only hope for the Gaeltacht?

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy is confusing the congested areas with the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Bartley

I am not.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy certainly is. The Deputy knows it very well.

Mr. Bartley

I know the western Gaeltacht pretty well.

Mr. O'Donnell

As I said, the Deputy is confusing the Gaeltacht with the ceanntair Cunga. I am referring to the Gaeltacht. Deputy J. Lynch also said he believed the fishing industry was something which would improve the economy of the Gaeltacht. But he went slightly further and said he wanted to see the fishermen going to sea and remaining at sea for weeks before coming back. Was that not the policy of Deputy Bartley?

Mr. Bartley

Is that not what the Minister for Agriculture said an hour ago?

Mr. O'Donnell

He was referring to seine-net fishing boats. He was not referring to the derelict German trawlers which the Deputy brought in there and which tried to kill the inshore fishermen.

Mr. Bartley

What about the row in Donegal between the ring boats and the inshore fishermen?

Mr. O'Donnell

What row? I do not know anything about it. I think the matter is still sub judice and perhaps little should be said about it.

Mr. Bartley

I understand it has been dealt with. There were no German boats involved.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Deputy knows more than I know. The Deputy, at a cost of £66,000, brought in three derelict German trawlers to compete with our inshore fishermen.

Mr. Bartley

Not at all.

Mr. O'Donnell

To do that, he went into the heart of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht in Donegal and closed down the Meevagh boatyard. Does the Deputy agree that that boatyard was providing boats for the inshore fishermen?

Mr. Bartley

Will the Minister not try to be fair? He wants to make out that Donegal was deprived of a boatyard?

Mr. O'Donnell

I said no such thing. I said the Fíor-Ghaeltacht was deprived of a boatyard. If Deputies Bartley and Lynch had got their way we would have a fleet of those large trawlers fishing, out of the ports of Dublin, Galway and possibly the southern ports, in the heart of the Donegal fishing grounds, in Dingle, and in various other Irish speaking areas, out of which the inshore fishermen would be driven.

Mr. Bartley

Did the Minister not give out a boat the other day under the scheme which we drew up?

Mr. O'Donnell

That scheme was only the hare-brained idea of the Deputy. It was in its embryo stage only.

Mr. Bartley

It was not in its embryo stage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bartley has already spoken. He must allow the Minister to proceed.

Mr. O'Donnell

There was not a keel of a boat laid down under the Deputy. It was like the dance-hall scheme for the Gaeltacht, which I changed into a scheme for the promotion of drama.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is an untruth.

Mr. O'Donnell

I can tell you what I found in the files when I took over.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Minister is repeating this year an untruth he told last year.

Mr. O'Donnell

We believe in providing boats such as the Ard Macha.

Mr. Bartley

That is a Fianna Fáil scheme.

Mr. O'Donnell

As I say, there was not a stick of these boats provided; there was not a page in a file in connection with the matter. I do not know what was in the Deputy's mind. If he was going to insist on having deepsea German trawlers, surely he was not, at the same time, going to give these unfortunate fishermen 56-foot boats to compete against them?

Mr. Bartley

That was not thought about until we came in.

Mr. O'Donnell

It was the German trawlers you were thinking of. We believe in providing these boats for the poor fishermen of the Gaeltacht. We were doing something which had not been done in the Gaeltacht. We also believe that by the building of a fishmeal plant and the building of a frigidaire plant or cold storage, on the fringe of the western seaboard and the southern seaboard, we will be able to guarantee the continuity of the supply of fish and thereby ensure a home market for the fish which these men will catch. We also believe in tourist road grants for the Gaeltacht and I must now give Deputies on that side of the House credit for that, but is it not a terrible state of affairs that not one penny of it was spent? In the first 15 years of Fianna Fáil being in office, not one penny was spent by them on the tourist roads of the Gaeltacht. After 19 years, we may well ask what they were doing for those Irish-speaking areas when they had evidence by which they knew that the Gaeltacht was fast dwindling away and that it would be very difficult indeed to recall or extend it.

I think I have done something and I think our Government deserves credit for what it has done by way of bringing social amenities to the Gaeltacht. During all the first 15 years that Fianna Fáil were in office, no effort was made to extend rural electrification into one of the Gaeltacht areas of this country. I hope, as a result of the efforts of the present Government, first of all, by taking County Donegal, which is the largest Gaeltacht in this country, from the very bottom of the list of priorities for rural electrification and putting it to the top, to provide, by the end of next year, every Irish speaking house which requires it with that social amenity of electric light.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

The Clady River?

Mr. O'Donnell

Yes, the Clady River.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Cé thosaigh é?

Mr. O'Donnell

Mar a dúras, bhí fiche bliain agaibh chun an scéim sin a críochnú agus níor dhein sib a dhath mar gheall air. Is it one of these schemes you have been speaking about that you had 20 years to complete and did nothing about it? I also found when I came into office that a sum of £25,000 was allocated by Deputy Lynch for the provision of dance-halls in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. J. Lynch

I again deny that emphatically.

Mr. O'Donnell

What was the £25,000 for?

Mr. J. Lynch

Parochial halls.

Mr. O'Donnell

That has been the ruination of the Gaeltacht. There have been far too many dance halls in the Gaeltacht; there has been far too much anglicisation and anglicised culture, and the Deputy intended to spend £25,000 on increasing the number of these dance-halls.

Mr. Derrig

Not dance-halls.

Mr. O'Donnell

Dance-halls and nothing else.

Mr. Derrig

Has the Minister ever heard of any classes being held or other such activities in these halls?

Mr. O'Donnell

With regard to classes, we provide vocational schools in the Gaeltacht for such purposes. We have too many dance-halls. I decided to divert that £25,000 and to provide for Gaelic culture such as dramatics in the Gaeltacht and I found in my own native county in the parish of Gweedore, a dramatic society which had proved beyond doubt that it was the most enthusiastic in this country for Gaelic culture in relation to dramatics and, as I said on the Estimate here last year, I provided a grant for them, and as regards any other Gaeltacht in the country which can prove that it is entitled to such a grant and to such a theatre, I will be very glad, while I am in charge of this office, to sanction a grant for it.

Immediately on our taking office the last time, we gave an undertaking that we would establish a Ministry, and as Deputies know this House and the Seanad have now passed that Bill and it will become an Act very shortly. In that way, we are endeavouring to carry out the advice given by the Gaeltacht Commission of 1927. That was one of the things they advised, that a Gaeltacht Ministry should be set up. We are now taking up the threads and trying to continue the work which the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government intended to do despite the fact that they were waging a civil war and involved in many other matters at the time.

Mr. Derrig

May I point out that the Minister is wrong in saying the Gaeltacht Commission suggested that a Ministry be set up?

Mr. O'Donnell

Very good. The Gaeltacht Commission made certain recommendations and we have on record what the then Government intended to do in regard to them. I do not wish to delay any more on this Estimate. It was dragged out much longer than I thought it would. It developed eventually into a debate as to the merits and demerits of this grass meal factory in the West. I think it is admitted, or should be admitted, all round that when we diverted our energies from grass meal to the kind of production which is being carried on there now, and when we are able to employ 70 men as against 19 on the grass meal project, we have done something more and something better to retain the people over there.

I am more concerned with the Gaeltacht than with the congested areas. I should like to see the congests taken out and brought over to the Midlands, but I should also like to see the Irish speakers retained in the Gaeltacht and the Gaeltacht boundaries extended into the Breac-Ghaeltacht so that we would be in a better position to retain our Irish speakers.

Mr. J. Lynch

May I ask the Minister one question? Will he ascertain from his officers whether or not the £25,000 to which he has referred was for the provision of dance-halls and whether, in any scheme that was to be put up for the erection of the halls under that plan, it was a condition precedent that activities of an anglicising nature were not to be permitted in them?

Mr. O'Donnell

I can assure the Deputy of this, that the moneys were for the provision of parochial halls in the Gaeltacht.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Not dance-halls.

Mr. O'Donnell

We have in the Gaeltacht our vocational schools and our national schools for the activities which Deputy Derrig mentioned. I would like to know what further activities Deputy Lynch had in mind, other than dancing?

Mr. Derrig

For example, the dramatics the Minister has spoken of.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 12th June, 1956.