There were, as those of us who took part in this discussion know, only two matters which resulted in keeping us here much longer than we thought on these stages of the measure. One of them was the amendment proposed in respect of Section 10 and the other was Section 9 of the measure now about to become law. In spite of our efforts here yesterday, I still do not know why the Minister so abruptly came in to this House with a proposal to amend Section 10 without having some regard to Section 9. The Minister has not given this as a reason but I suspect this is what he had at the back of his mind.
In our discussion on Section 9 we were not able to get much assistance from the Minister as to the circumstances of an applicant who would be likely to be successful in an application under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. According to the Minister, he could not be a rich person. Then we got to the stage that he had to be a person of modest means. Then we got to the stage that a person of modest means was not a national school-teacher. Then we got to the stage at which we were when we started when nobody knew, nor yet knows, what type of person was involved or in what circumstances an applicant must be in order successfully to make an application for a loan under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts.
I was listening to Deputy Larkin last night and he gave me a clue as to what was in the Minister's mind. The Dublin Corporation were given money to finance activities under these Acts with the stipulation that only those who would qualify for supplementary grants were to secure advances. From the stipulation which was attached to the £1,000,000 advanced from the Local Loans Fund to the Dublin Corporation, that only those who had received supplementary grants from that body could get these loans, I assume that the Minister amended Section 10 so as to keep, in spite of the change of circumstances, the same groups within the different categories so that every local body in the country would ultimately be pinned down to giving small dwelling loans only on the basis of persons who would qualify for these supplementary grants.
If that is what the Minister had at the back of his mind, as I suspect, one would have expected that in the course of all this discussion we would have got from him a clear statement to that effect. Instead of that, we have been moving about and switching from one foot to another. If an assurance given by the Minister, on the advice of his technicians, was found to be a wee bit generous or extravagant, then the Minister proceeded to mend his hand. The result of it all is that we are still in the dark in spite of all the time we spent in discussion here.
If it is the Minister's intention to rule out from participation in the small dwelling loans all those who are outside the valuation limits or wage-earning capacities, as set out in Sections 9 and 10, and if the rest of the people who want to build houses are to be thrown over to the building societies, we know what the Minister's idea of "modest means" is.
Heretofore, local bodies were sceptical about giving these loans except in cases where it was clear that the recipient was in a position to repay. Now apparently the Minister and the Department have at the back of their minds a ceiling which they have not openly revealed and all those who would be outside that would have to approach the building societies and insurance societies.
Deputy Finlay, a young barrister, was, on Second Reading, full of enthusiasm, and so was Deputy Esmonde, for the manner in which all these new moneys were to be released to the private builder. These societies in the past usually made whatever funds they had surplus to their acquirements available to the Minister for Finance in his public issues from time to time. These moneys were always available in one form or another. Yet we listened to efforts being made by some Deputies who had not the faintest idea of what is involved in this housing proposal. They paraded themselves one after another to justify a course of action that could only have a disastrous effect on private building.
What does the guarantee in Section 9 of the Bill mean? It means that the insurance companies or the building societies will have the right to vet the applicants, in the first instance. They will have to approve of the giving of advances to applicants, and if they decide that the applicant is not a person to whom they would give money, this question of the guarantee does not arise at all. Just imagine that we are reduced to the position in which an applicant applies for a loan to a building society or an insurance company and these institutions have a policy under which they give only 80 per cent. of the market value of the house. That fact might prevent certain applicants from taking advantage of these loans because they would not have the other 20 per cent. to put down in order to acquire a house.
We are actually coming forward in that case where the societies must first approve of the individual — and, mark you, he will have to be a very credit-worthy individual before they will approve him — and if they do not approve, this guarantee mentioned in Section 9 is not worth a jot. But when they approve of the applicant, this section provides that the applicant's local authority may give to the insurance company or building society a guarantee — the security of the rates — for the repayment of the additional 15 per cent. the applicant would get if the money had been made available to him under the Small Dwellings Acts, in order that the company concerned will have no doubt that everything is in order.
Then the State says to the local body: "You have underwritten this 15 per cent. for applicant A; we will now underwrite you to the extent of 7½ per cent. of that 15 per cent." Just imagine that the local body has to go to all these rounds to underwrite an applicant who has already been approved by the lending organisation and to whom the company or society would give 80 per cent. of the estimated value of the house. Yet the credit-worthiness of the local authority and the State is at such a high level now that the two of them will have to sign on the dotted line before the society will give the additional 15 per cent.! God knows it is terrible to be here and to have had to listen to and look at the things that have been going on in this place for the past few years!
