I regret very much having to ask the House to bear with me in connection with the subject matter of question No. 13 on last week's Order Paper. When I put down this question, I thought there would be no difficulty whatever in getting a favourable reply from the Minister for Education in relation to this matter. I asked the Minister then:—
"... why he has deferred his decision in relation to the proposals of the Roscommon Vocational Education Committee in connection with the alteration and extension of the vocational school in Ballaghaderreen, and if, in view of the serious overcrowding in the existing school and the fact that a bank is prepared to provide the necessary financial accommodation, he will issue sanction without further delay."
The Minister's reply was:—
"I have been unable to authorise County Roscommon Vocational Education Committee to proceed with their proposal to alter and extend the vocational school in Ballaghaderreen as it has not as yet been found possible to include it in the limited amount of building projects which vocational education committees generally can be permitted to undertake in present circumstances."
In view of the financial difficulties in which the Government finds itself, I would have let the matter rest there but, as the House will note, all the Minister was asked in my question was would he give permission to the Vocational Education Committee to go ahead since the money was being made available by the bank. Mark you, there was no question of the Vocational Committee coming to the Minister or to the Local Loans Fund and asking for the money to go ahead with this project. It was merely a matter of the Minister giving his sanction to the committee to go ahead on the basis that a private commercial concern was prepared to give the necessary accommodation. All the Minister had to do was sanction the proposal. He replied that, as far as he was concerned, he could not give permission in view of the fact that this project could not be included in the limited amount of building projects which Vocational Education Committees generally can be permitted to undertake under present circumstances.
Here is the story. Roscommon Vocational Committee are very anxious, like every other Vocational Committee, to meet the demands of the community in relation to educational facilities. For a good many years past the people in the Ballaghaderreen area have been pressing for more facilities and the committee decided that the building there needed extension, alteration and enlargement. Plans were prepared. The existing cloakroom was to be turned into an engineering room and an additional classroom. The domestic classroom was to be enlarged and likewise the woodworking room. These plans were essential to facilitate pupils being trained before they were called upon to face the rigours and competition of life, perhaps outside this country.
The existing building can accommodate 80 pupils. There are 110 pupils on the rolls this year. To the regret of the committee and the dismay of parents in the area, 30 pupils had to be refused admission. That shows the demand that exists and the anxiety locally for vocational education. The committee prepared plans. They did not go to the Minister, cap in hand like many other bodies at the present time, for the necessary funds. They went to the bank. Lo and behold, the bank agreed to give the financial accommodation necessary, namely, £7,000. The plans were submitted to the Minister some 18 months ago and the Minister was asked to give permission to the Vocational Committee to carry out the work. I have quoted the Minister's reply that he could not see his way to including Ballaghaderreen in the current projects.
If the Vocational Committee were asking the Minister for the money, I could understand him being worried to death, put to the pin of his collar to get the money for so many other more desirable and more essential projects perhaps. I could understand him saying to the people in Ballaghaderreen: "I regret very much that I shall have to put you on the waiting list." No such request for money was made to the Minister. No demand was made on the Local Loans Fund. The money was being raised from a commercial bank. I cannot understand the Minister's attitude. At a time when we can spend up to £750,000 on jet aeroplanes and runways and some £500,000 on palatial foreign embassies, plus considerable sums of money on foreign fuel to heat the Minister's own Department, surely the Minister could see his way to giving permission to the vocational education committee in Roscommon to spend £7,000 on improvement works where a bank was prepared to make the necessary financial accommodation available.
I could go on here for a week pointing out the extraordinary situation that obtains, with money being flashed around for all sorts of projects. That is one side of the story. I want to demonstrate now for the House how little one Minister knows of what another Minister is doing and how little co-ordination there is between one Department and another on a matter of policy. Prior to the Summer Recess the Minister for Local Government made several speeches here and outside the House appealing to local authorities to get their necessary financial accommodation for building from insurance companies or from banks.
The Minister wanted to lighten or ease the burden on Government funds and every Deputy in the House is aware of the fact that banks and insurance companies were approached by local authorities on the request of the Minister for Local Government so that Government funds would not be overtaxed. I want to quote for the benefit of this House a passage which occurs in Volume 156 at column 270 in case anybody thinks I am pulling a long bow. There was a question on the Order Paper of 9th May, 1956, by Deputy Briscoe in connection with the advance of £4,000,000 to Dublin Corporation for housing purposes. The Minister's reply was in effect that a sum of £1,000,000 of the £4,000,000 was being advanced from the Local Loans Fund and he went on to say:—
"The balance of the £4,000,000, to the extent that the Corporation are unable to raise it independently from appropriate lending agencies, has been promised by the Government from public funds."
In other words, Dublin Corporation was told specifically in this House to go to appropriate independent lending agencies to secure the necessary financial accommodation for the construction of houses but that if the Corporation or other local authorities were unable to get money from the banks or insurance companies, then the State itself would make the necessary moneys available.
Here we have Roscommon Vocational Education Committee, a subsidiary body of Roscommon County Council. It goes along to an independent lending agency, namely, the bank. The bank makes the money available, £7,000. The vocational committee was following the advice given by the Minister for Local Government not to overtax Government funds but when the vocational committee applies to the Minister for the sanction to embark on the scheme they are told by the Minister that he cannot sanction the expenditure of this £7,000. Let us follow the Minister's supplementary replies to some questions that I asked him.
I queried the Minister in a supplementary question and asked in view of the fact that there would be no great burden on Government funds as a result of the Roscommon project would the Minister explain why he saw fit not to give sanction? The Minister went on to state that so far as he could see looking at next year's allocations it appeared that if the county council obtained loans through a bank it would be necessary to reduce the amounts available through the Local Loans Fund by that amount.
What does that mean? Does it mean that the Government has control over the private commercial banks? Does it mean that if the vocational committee goes in and borrows money from the bank for building purposes that the amount of money that is borrowed will be offset against the amount of money available to the Government in the Local Loans Fund? If it does, it has disclosed the hidden hand, something that this House has not been aware of in many years, if it means that any money borrowed from a bank would be taken later on from the amount of money made available to the Government by its own banks.
The Minister went on to say:
"I am endeavouring to control the amount of work that will be done in the extension of vocational schools in relation to the priorities desirable over the country as a whole. I cannot allow myself to be put in the position that because these banks, from the particular pool of capital in the country, give money that I will be left in my other pocket without that particular amount of money for vocational schools."
Is it necessary for the bank to make that amount of money available to Roscommon Vocational Education Committee out of a pool of money within the State? Has the Minister any information that the particular bank concerned was not prepared to expatriate some of its external assets, some of its investments abroad? Surely the Minister is not in a position to know from what source a private banking concern would make that money available to the vocational education committee? What information has the Minister as to how the bank would ensure that the £7,000 would be given to the committee? Has the Minister inside information as to the workings of the bank, as to the amount of investments abroad that would have to be sold in order to meet that loan of £7,000? I want an answer on this question from the Minister because it is a very serious problem.
If what the Minister states is true, if it is true that according to the Minister he cannot allow himself to be put in the position that because the banks from a particular pool of capital in the country make money available to a local authority he will be left in his other pocket without that particular amount of money for vocational schools, then the Minister must have some control in some way over the banks. There is no other answer.
I have pointed out that the Minister for Local Government has requested local authorities all over the country to go to banks and insurance companies to get money necessary for building. If the Minister for Local Government makes that plea to local authorities, what the devil does the Minister for Education mean by refusing to sanction a request made to him by such a local authority when they have got satisfactory financial accommodation from a bank? Can the Minister explain how it is that the Department of Local Government is embarking on one policy while the Department of Education under the Minister's control is blandly and placidly sailing off in the opposite direction?
I feel very strongly in this matter. I had hoped that the Minister through the pressure of questions in this House would have seen fit to have put his name on the piece of paper and given the permission but evidently he did not see fit to do so. Evidently, at the moment, he is prepared to hold up sanction of this scheme on the flimsy excuse that if he gives that particular sanction he will be short of that amount of money out of Government funds. I suggest that that cannot be correct; the Minister cannot be serious about that suggestion. He cannot be serious in suggesting to this House that the banks make a loan available to a company or a local authority, or to a statutory body like the vocational committee, if a private commercial concern such as a bank make available to a vocational committee that will interfere with the amount of money the Minister has for the rest of his programme.
I suggest that the Minister even at this late stage should reconsider his decision and send down permission to the vocational committee, saying "God speed the work." In that way the boys and girls who are now waiting for a chance to get education will not have to wait that much longer than they will have to wait in consequence of the Minister's decision to defer this very desirable project.
