Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Nov 1956

Vol. 160 No. 12

Voluntary Health Insurance Bill, 1956—Report and Final Stages.

Minister for Health (Mr. T.F. O'Higgins)

On this stage I propose to recommit the Bill in respect of amendment No. 5. I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 3, lines 9 and 10, to delete "and a managing director".

This amendment and amendments Nos. 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 deal with the same matter, and perhaps they could be considered together. Deputies will remember that on the Committee Stage of the Bill an amendment standing in the name of Deputy Finlay was discussed which made the suggestion that instead of a managing director the board should have available the services of a manager and that the board of directors should accordingly consist of a chairman and ordinary directors. It is not easy to be certain in one's mind whether a board of this kind would better operate through a managing director, who, of course, would have a say and perhaps a dominant say in the policy followed by the board, or whether it would be better to divorce the main executive officer from the policy-making of the board. I considered the matter carefully and thought that the balance probably was in favour of a manager. I was a bit strengthened in that view in consideration of the type of officer who, it is hoped, would be appointed eventually by the board as manager. I felt that, particularly in relation to responsibilities of this kind, of piloting a new scheme dealing with what may be a complicated form of enterprise, the idea of health insurance, the board must be concerned to seek a person with managerial experience and technical knowledge.

It was my opinion that the tenure of office of such a person might be a matter to be considered with the individual whose services would be desirable. As a managing director, of course, under the Bill the tenure would be merely four or five years. I have no doubt the managing director would be reappointed but that would be the only guarantee he would have. Again in the case of a manager it would be possible for the board to make their own arrangements with him and that consideration tipped the merits in favour of the amendment proposed by Deputy Finlay. I have accordingly accepted this amendment and the other amendments providing in effect for the appointment of a manager, and I ask the Dáil to accept the proposal.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 3, line 10, to delete "three" and substitute "four".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 3:—

In page 3, to delete lines 16 to 19, inclusive.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 4:—

In page 3, to delete lines 39 to 42, inclusive.

Amendment agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is recommitting the Bill for amendment No. 5.

Bill recommitted for the purpose of taking amendment No. 5.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 5:—

In page 3, before Section 7, to insert the following new section :—

(1) The Minister, with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, may make a scheme for the payment, subject to such conditions and limitations as may be prescribed in the scheme, of superannuation benefits on retirement to whole-time members of the board and may, with the like concurrence, amend any such scheme.

(2) A scheme under this section shall be carried out by the board in accordance with its terms.

(3) Every scheme made under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and if either House, within the next 21 days on which that House has sat after the scheme is laid before it, passes a resolution annulling the scheme, the scheme shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.

The object of this amendment is to enable pensions to be paid, if necessary, to full-time members of the board. Similar provision was made in the case of Bord na Móna, An Bord Fáilte and Fogra Fáilte. While it does not appear likely at the moment that any members of the board would be full-time, the possibility could arise in the future when the scope of the board's activities, it is hoped, will have extended, that it would be found necessary to have, for instance, a full-time chairman. If that were to arise it would be a weakness if provision were not made whereby pension rights could be acquired. It is implicit in the amendment that there is also a negative side to it which would preclude the provision of pensions for part-time members of the board. I think it is a necessary provision and I would ask the House to accept it.

Mr. S. Lemass

In the case of the other boards mentioned by the Minister he is, of course, aware that provision for the payment of pensions to full-time members was introduced long after the boards had been in operation and when it was clear that the length of service given by individuals entitled them to that right. I doubt if it is wise to introduce this provision initially until some experience has been gained as to the extent to which the activities of this board will go and as to the quality of the persons appointed. I do not know of any case where there is a State board the part-time members of which ever quality for pension. It seems to me to be a very undesirable precedent to establish.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Not part-time. This precludes pension for part-time members.

Mr. S. Lemass

I thought the Minister said "included".

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

No. I said it had a negative side to prevent pensions being given to part-time members. The only power under the amendment is that where a director becomes whole-time he then acquires pension rights. No part-time member has pension rights.

Mr. S. Lemass

In the other case there is provision that where a member has already given a specified number of years' service he qualifies for a pension. I understand the Minister contemplates that he might at the very beginning of the appointment negotiate for pension purposes.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I agree with the Deputy that the provision in relation to these other boards was found necessary on actual experience. I am now suggesting to the Dáil that the experience already gained suggests that this power should be available now if necessary. In fact, the board to be established on present indications will consist of part-time directors but as the insurance scheme spreads and extends, as it is hoped it will, it may in the future be found necessary to supplement the manager by a full-time chairman and in those circumstances I think it would be wrong to put on the Minister for Health the necessity of coming back to the Dáil to seek this particular power when we can provide it now. It can only be utilised in the event of whole-time appointment being found necessary. It cannot be used otherwise than on a whole-time appointment.

Mr. S. Lemass

May I put this to the Minister? Any pension scheme will undoubtedly provide for payment of a pension after a specified period of service. In the case of other boards that period of service has already been rendered and the person concerned had been appointed and reappointed before pension rights were given to him. The insertion of a provision of that kind in the Bill at this stage would appear to imply that when a person is going to be appointed he will be allowed to spend the minimum number of years to qualify. That would seem to be undesirable at this stage. I approve of the principle that a person who has whole-time service for a period of years should have pension rights but to bind the Minister's hands in advance to enable that person to fulfil the condition of service seems to be undesirable and would seem to make it more difficult to remove him within that period if his service is not satisfactory.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I gather the Deputy's objection is this. Assume it were found necessary to appoint a whole-time director, for example, the chairman, and the pension scheme in relation to him is then provided for and it might provide that if he serves whole-time for seven or ten years, whatever it may be, he might qualify for a pension since his tenure is five years. I can see there is an objection along those lines. I understand that in relation to Bord na Móna the pension scheme was introduced seven years after the board was established but in relation to Bord Fáilte I am informed that it was introduced three years after.

Mr. S. Lemass

That is not quite the position. In relation to Bord na Móna and Bord Fáilte the persons concerned had already been in the whole-time employment of the State in a similar capacity. If my recollection is correct both Acts provided for the counting in of that previous service.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

On the pension, yes. I do not feel very deeply one way or the other with regard to this. If the Deputy who has considerable experience——

Mr. S. Lemass

As soon as everybody accepted there was a chairman appointed who was satisfactory and should be kept there for life.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported without amendment.

Report Stage resumed.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 6:—

In page 5, Section 13, to add the following new sub-section:—

() The officers of the board may, with the consent of the Minister, include a general manager whose appointment, terms of office and removal from office shall be subject to the approval of the Minister.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I move amendment No. 7:—

In page 5, line 12 to delete "through or by the managing director or".

Amendment agreed to.

Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.

Agreed to take the Final Stage now.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.