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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 May 1957

Vol. 161 No. 11

Nomination of Member of Government. - Motion of Approval.

Tairgim:—

Go gcomhaontóidh Dáil Éireann leis an Taoiseach d'ainmniú an tSeanadóra Seán Ó Maoláin chun a cheaptha ag an Uachtarán chun bheith ina chomhalta den Rialtas.

That Dáil Éireann approve the nomination by the Taoiseach of Senator Seán Moylan for appointment by the President to be a member of the Government.

Mar adúirt mé nuair a bhíomar ag ainmniú an Rialtais, bhí sé ar intinn agam Seán Ó Maoláin a ainmniú mar bhall den tSeanad. Tá mé tar éis é sin a dhéanamh, agus ba mhaith liom anois an Seanadóir nua a ainmniú mar bhall den Rialtas. I am asking the Dáil for its approval of the nomination of Senator Séan Moylan as a member of the Government.

I bhfeighil na Roinne Talmhaíochta?

I have a few things to say in connection with this motion. First of all, I should like to point out that any criticism I may have to offer of this appointment is not in a personal sense. I have the greatest respect for Senator Moylan as a soldier. I have the greatest respect for his record in helping, in times gone by, to achieve the limited political freedom that obtains in this part of Ireland to-day.

You, Sir, as Ceann Comhairle, will appreciate the fact that a motion in my name on the Order Paper deals with the Seanad and calls upon this House to abolish it. The present appointment is being made from the Seanad. I should like to get this very clear. It seems extraordinary to me that at a time when Fianna Fáil's strength is at its greatest, at a time when they have more Deputies in this House than ever before, the Taoiseach finds it impossible to select from that huge number of successful candidates a suitable man for ministerial post as Minister for Agriculture.

Nobody in this House talks more about democracy and about the rights of the people than the present Taoiseach. Only to-day in the course of his address on the Budget, he treated us to a lecture in this House on the dangers of a private army, on the rights of the people and how they should be protected. He pointed out that this House was elected for the protection of the people. We find that one of the very first acts of the Taoiseach, who talks so much about democracy, was to flout the will of the people.

The people of the constituency in Cork knew Senator Moylan. He had been a member of this House for a considerable number of years. The people in that constituency knew his ability, knew his record, knew how close he was to the Taoiseach. They knew all those things and we all accept the fact that the people are the bosses. The people decided calmly, through the secrecy of the ballot box, that they did not want Seán Moylan as a member of Dáil Éireann.

However, the Taoiseach, the man who preaches about the rights of the people, flouted their decision and, within a week of the people's decision rejecting Seán Moylan, the Taoiseach announced he would use the privilege, for which he had made provision in the Constitution, to bring in Seán Moylan over the people's heads. Some Deputies in the House may consider it desirable that the Taoiseach should have the right to bring into the Government individuals who have not gone before the people, to bring in individuals who had not offered themselves at the hustings. Those Deputies are entitled to their view. Perhaps the idea originally was that we would have somebody in the country with the ability of Einstein, somebody who would be able to produce gold out of a hat. Anyhow, it was considered that if such a provision were left in the Constitution the Taoiseach could bring in an individual but it was thought that such a privilege would be exercised only on the basis that the individual would be one of the world's outstanding men.

I am not here to say anything in a personal sense in criticism of Deputy Moylan. His record in this House is, to my mind, on a par with the records of the majority of Deputies. He has had, over the years, ministerial experience in various Departments. For a considerable period he was Minister for Lands and also in charge of forestry.

When I went for election for the first time one of the points on which I fought my campaign was the terrible neglect of forestry. The man who is now to be brought in as Minister for Agriculture was in charge of forestry for a considerable number of years. Having given a great deal of consideration to the matter I say there are other people inside the Fianna Fáil Party in the House who are capable of doing a reasonable job in the Department of Agriculture.

The Department of Lands could be looked upon by many as the most important Department in the State. All Deputies in this House are agreed that if the necessary production does not come from the land our economy will suffer greatly. Over the past 30 years the Department of Lands, as such, in the hands of people like Senator Moylan, cannot be said to have been a success. In fact, so unsuccessful has the policy of Senator Moylan as Minister for Lands proved that Deputy Childers, his successor, has now pointed out that the Land Commission is a waste of time, that the policy of the Land Commission over the years was misdirected.

We have now brought into the Department of Agriculture the man who was responsible for that policy and who is replaced in the Department of Lands by Deputy Childers. Will the position arise in four or five years that another Fianna Fáil bright spark like Deputy Childers will say: "I am afraid Senator Moylan made a ‘hames' of the Department of Agriculture as he did when he was in charge of forestry." Fianna Fáil have 78 Deputies in this House—78 loyal supporters of the Leader, the Chief. Out of these 78 there are quite a number of Deputies from the Province of Connaught, the neglected province. So far the Taoiseach has not appointed a single Minister from that province. I am sure there are Deputies in the Opposition who would say: "Well, if this appointment was to bring in a Connaught man from a province so far neglected it would not be too bad." But no, despite the fact that this province has stood loyally by the Taoiseach, it has been spurned, and a man who has been rejected by the people is being brought in to take charge of what is known as the most important Department in the State.

Is there the slightest semblance of democratic procedure in the motion that the Taoiseach has moved to-day? The individual concerned, Senator Moylan as he now is, went before the people and he was rejected. What was the next move? Did he even take the chance of going before the electorate for the Seanad? Oh no. Surely if the Taoiseach considers that the Seanad is such an upright body, such an important body and that the men elected to it should be elected by democratic procedure, he should have decided that Mr. Moylan would go before the Seanad and contest his seat in the same way as the other 180 or 190 Seanad candidates. That did not happen. In other words, having been rejected by the people first, it was then decided it would be unwise to allow this man to go forward and contest even the Seanad election.

When I look towards the Fianna Fáil Benches I see a number of new faces there and a number of Deputies for whom I have a great personal respect. I see a number of Deputies that I believe have a great personal ability but I believe at the same time that, as they are now, they are rigorously tied down and the ability they have is being prevented from blossoming. Surely the Taoiseach had an opportunity at this stage of taking from the younger ranks a man who would have the energy, the youth and enthusiasm to spark a new policy in agriculture and bring new life to that most important Department? Surely the Taoiseach has more respect for his 78 Deputies than to pass them all by and to take in one individual who has already been rejected?

However, seeing that he has not—I presume this House will agree to his decision—as far as I am personally concerned, I am opposing it completely on the grounds that the action is undemocratic coming from a man who preaches democracy to the people day and night. I oppose this as vehemently as I can and I shall ask for a division in the hope that there will be at least five Deputies in the House who will also oppose it.

It was not my intention to speak on this motion but I cannot let the occasion pass without making some comment on the disgusting remarks made by the previous speaker. Deputy McQuillan spoke of democracy or the lack of democracy in the decision of the Taoiseach, but it would be well if the Deputy remembered that the method by which Senator Moylan was chosen for this Ministry was put before the Irish people and approved in the Constitution which was passed by the Irish people in a democratic manner. That is the method which Deputy McQuillan now chooses to criticise.

As a younger member of the House, I am very glad and very pleased that Senator Moylan will occupy the Ministry for Agriculture not, as Deputy McQuillan says, because he is a soldier but because of his record here. If any Deputy troubles to read the debates down through the years he will see the tremendous success which Senator Moylan achieved in various Departments notwithstanding the strong castigation to which we have listened from Deputy McQuillan. In the Ministry of Education, Senator Moylan was one of the most brilliant and goahead Ministers this country has ever known and if he brings the same energy and enthusiasm to agriculture as he did to the other posts he occupied, then the future of the agricultural community and the nation as a whole is assured.

Deputy McQuillan chose to criticise the Taoiseach because of the Taoiseach's interpretation of democracy. It is a pity that the advice of the Taoiseach was not taken down through the years by the Irish people, because then we might not find ourselves in the terrible mess in which we are at the present time. Deputy McQuillan refers to the fact that out of 78 Fianna Fáil Deputies we could not find one to occupy the most important Ministry. I think, personally, that is the greatest compliment that any man could get and it shows the confidence that the Taoiseach has in Senator Moylan.

Deputy McQuillan talks about youth and enthusiasm. The same Deputy would be the first to crib here in order to hit the headlines again if a young man were given that post. His plea then would be "the youth and inexperience" of the man appointed to the most important Department. Deputy McQuillan has an answer for every occasion to suit his own purpose, to show that he is aloof and can support one project or suggestion to-day, and go the other way to-morrow. The people in Deputy McQuillan's constituency do not appear to agree with that—at least proportionately, they are losing faith——

They elected him well, anyhow.

——in that attitude I do not know who, if anyone, will speak on the Opposition side, but I wonder, if the present Opposition had by some means been elected again as the Government what they would have done or how they would have exercised their authority if Deputy Sweetman had not gained those very valuable and precious 28 votes in Kildare and if the former Deputy Tom Harris——

The Deputy had better keep to the motion before the House.

That is purely hypothetical but I should like to say that if the Deputy or any other Deputy had gone to the library and taken the trouble to read the debates which took place when the terms and provisions of the Constitution were being debated in this House it would be found that the very thing that has happened here to-day was debated then ad nauseam—the fact that a Minister of State could be defeated. I think it happened in the case of a former Minister of State and it could happen again. After all it must be realised that a Minister of State or a person who was a Minister of State, may, through pressure of business and pressure of the duties of his office, lose touch with his constituents.

There is also the human aspect of it because the uninitiated voters may say: "So-and-so is a former Minister: he is safe." He is not safe; he is weaker. In the democratic system under which we operate these factors have been taken into account and such a contingency as has arisen was catered for. The contingency has been dealt with by the action of the Taoiseach and such action demonstrates in no uncertain manner that the democratic provisions of the Constitution approved by the people in 1937 have been carried out. Deputy McQuillan chose to use the word "misdirected". He went into the history of Senator Moylan during his term of office in the Ministry of Lands, which I, for one, thought was a most successful time in that Department. He further suggests that Deputy Childers, the Minister for Lands, has stated that all that happened in the past was completely worthless. Such, of course, is typical of Deputy McQuillan's usual exaggeration. The Minister for Lands made no such statement. He made some constructive statements and suggestions as to how the Land Commission might be improved. There is an old maxim of which Deputy McQuillan should be aware: "Let us learn from the wisdom of age and be cheered by the sallies of youth." Deputy McQuillan remembers that there was an occasion when he, too, was misdirected, and he saw the light eventually.

In his long time in this House Deputy McQuillan never advocated that the changing of the section of the Constitution by which this House has the power to nominate two members of the Seanad to be members of the Government should be referred to the people by means of a referendum. He comes in here now spouting about it for the first time and criticising the action of the Taoiseach. Any logical and far seeing person, anyone who, as I stated earlier, has gone to the trouble of reading the debates when these provisions were being formulated can easily see his criticisms are ill-founded.

Another criticism made by Deputy McQuillan was that there is no Minister for Connaught. Surely the members of the Cabinet are not chosen on the basis of a residence qualification, so many to the different provinces. They are chosen on their ability and I presume that every area of the country need not have representation in the Cabinet. It would be well if Deputy McQuillan bore in mind that the representatives in this House from Connaught are quite the most energetic members of the Fianna Fáil Party and I am glad to say that I have observed at our Party meetings that these members are the ones who give us the benefit of their long experience and knowledge and are the most constructive in their criticisms.

I cannot understand how the question of democracy which has been raised by Deputy McQuillan comes into this matter. As has been pointed out already, what has been done was provided for in the Constitution. A democracy is, I take it, a system of Government in which you have certain basic laws and other laws which have to conform to it. The basic law here provides for a Seanad. It also provides that in the formation of the Seanad, the Taoiseach can make a certain number of nominations and that not more than two members of the Seanad can be chosen to be members of the Government.

The pros and cons of that were fully discussed at the time the Constitution was passing through the House. In fact, there was a committee set up to consider questions of that sort and they recommended certain nominations. I do not know whether they dealt precisely with the fact that members of the Seanad may be members of the Government—I do not think they did—but at any rate it is in the Constitution. Surely nobody can say we are flouting democracy if the fundamental law which was passed by the people is the law which determines my action in this case.

There may be a question which would naturally occur to anybody: would it be possible for a Senator to perform the functions that are necessary in this House as Minister for Agriculture? By the Constitution, a Senator, when he is a Minister, is entitled to sit in this House, to speak in the House, in fact, to do everything in the House that any member of this House can do except vote. The only time that the position of a Senator who is a member of the Government will differ from that of a member of this House is in the matter of going up the stairs to vote. His duties may require him also to be in another place, but that is often the case with Ministers. They have had to go to attend the Seanad in dealing with Bills, and so on, while they are members of the Dáil, and a provision had to be made to make that possible. There are two or three Ministries which are excluded by the Constitution from being held by members of the Seanad, the positions of Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Minister for Finance.

It is possible there is something to be said for an important Ministry being held by a member of this House. I will not deny that at all. I would have been better pleased if this important Ministry was held by a member of the Dáil. It is true there is quite a number of Deputies in the House, members of our Party, who could have been selected as Minister for Agriculture. I am sure quite a number of them would have proved themselves successful Ministers for Agriculture, but the task ahead of the Taoiseach in a case like this is to pick out the best person at his disposal in any way. Of course, his opinion can be wrong but, as it is laid down, it is his opinion that counts if the Dáil agrees and does not turn down his nomination in the matter.

My own opinion in relation to all those who were available to me in any way to serve as Minister for Agriculture was that in our present circumstances the person most likely to serve the country best in that capacity was Mr. Moylan, now Senator Moylan. Availing of the powers given to the Taoiseach, I deliberately nominated him as a Senator for that reason. The suggestion that he was rejected by the people is not true, really. I am perfectly certain that, if there had been a rule that when a person was appointed a Minister, he would have to go down to his constituency and be put up before them to be confirmed in his appointment, Senator Moylan would get an overwhelming vote of the people in his constituency.

Why do you want to give fellows a second chance?

We all know very well that accidents do happen in these elections. Very often it is the person who is most loyal to his fellow candidates who can easily lose his seat by some small number of votes. That happened before and it can happen again. That is what happened in this case. I am perfectly certain that, with Sean Moylan's record, if he had played a selfish game, he would have headed the poll.

Where was the accident?

He tried to get two men in and it did not work.

The point about it is that he did not play the selfish game. I am taking the responsibility for his nomination. I am asking the Dáil to agree with me in accepting it. I am taking the responsibility for nominating Seán Moylan as a member of the Government, and, as a member of the Government, to be Minister for Agriculture. I have only one anxiety and that is that he will over-work and kill himself as Minister for Agriculture.

Hear, hear!

It will be a very difficult task. The whole of our future depends upon how agriculture is treated during the next five years. In choosing Mr. Moylan, I choose him with the same confidence with which I chose him as Minister for Education and with the same belief in his ability to bring other people along with him. One of the things we need is the whole-hearted co-operation of the agricultural community, and, if there is one man in Ireland who can get that, it is Seán Moylan. The criticism of the nomination on the grounds of principle is not soundly based. I say, on the question of personality, I for one believe the Dáil would do well in agreeing to the nomination.

What about poor Deputy Corry?

Question put and declared carried.

Would the Deputies who demand a division please rise?

Deputies McAuliffe and McQuillan rose.

The Deputies will be recorded as dissenting.

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