Did the Minister find the 400,000 workers during the interval?
Health and Mental Treatment Bill, 1957—Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I have dealt with that point. I was saying before the interval that my predecessor had made the extraordinary statement—extraordinary for a person familiar with the facts—that for the first time money was sought from those who are sick. The Deputy who said that boasted that when he was Minister for Health he had brought into operation Section 15 of the Act. He should know that Section 15 of the Act provides for a charge. It gives the local authority power to make a charge of up to 6/- per day for those availing of hospital treatment. It is incorrect then to state that we were seeking contributions for the first time from those who are ill. The Deputy who made that statement was responsible for putting Section 15 into operation.
Deputy T.F. O'Higgins went on to tell the House of the magnificent things he had done in the two years he held office. I do not want to decry the achievements of my predecessor. I think it was little short of marvellous that he could have induced his colleague, the Minister for Finance, and his colleague the Minister for Agriculture to accept, holus-bolus, the 1953 Act which they had opposed so strenuously when it was before the Dáil. They told us and the people that the maternity services, the infant welfare services were immoral and contrary to Catholic social teaching. Yet all of those thing were accepted by the Deputy when in office. When I heard him say that for the first time the sick were being asked to pay, I began to wonder if he knew what he was doing when he put Section 15 of the Act into operation because that section does provide for the taking of money from the sick. What we are doing now is raising——
Raising the ante.
Raising the limit of the charge which may be made.
Cleaning them out altogether.
What we are doing is telling the local authorities that they may not charge more than 10/-. We are not saying: "You shall charge 10/-", any more than we are saying that they should charge 6/-. Any Deputy who thinks they should not, can use his influence with those who may be members of his local authority and endeavour to see that any increase which may be made will be moderate and justifiable. All we are doing is giving the local authorities permission to raise their charges to 10/- per day. Beyond 10/- they may not go.
I was referring to Deputy O'Higgins's statement of his achievements when he was Minister for Health. I do not want to decry them. I agree with many of the things he did. I agree with practically everything he did except one or two things. I am glad he saw his way to being in Section 15. I am glad he saw his way to give effect to the maternity services and other provisions of the Bill but, what I am sorry to say is, that having left all the services behind him, he also left the bills behind him. He left the overdrafts behind him, overdrafts on every possible account, including the Hospitals' Trust Fund, the income of which would fall due to the Minister for Health in the current financial year.
Is the Minister serious?
The Deputy knows well what I am talking about. He knows the amount by which the income from the Hospitals' Trust Fund for this year was anticipated in order to pay the deficits which accrued last year.
Is there anything wrong with that?
When the Deputy talks about what he left behind him let me remind him that he left, not alone these services, but a very substantial debt which this Government has to meet.
The Minister is talking nonsense; he should see a psychiatrist.
It is because of the debts which we inherited from our predecessors, including the Budget imbalance of £6,000,000, that this Budget is necessary. The responsibility for this measure in present circumstances lies largely on the Opposition.
£90,000.
When does the Minister expect the voluntary health insuraance scheme to be in operation?
When I receive it from the board.
Can he give us any date?
I have no idea what the board is doing. I have no doubt they are doing the work they were set up to do but I have no information as to what progress they have made.
Am I right in thinking that the Government expect they will save £90,000 under this Bill?
That is only half the story. The total amount of recoupment under this Bill will be £180,000.
How much will be saved by the Exchequer?
The amount of recoupment under this Bill is £180,000, of which the local authorities will benefit to the extent of £90,000.
Is it a fair deduction that, between the local authorities and the Government, under this Bill £180,000 will be taken out of the pockets of the people who have to seek hospital treatment? It is a disgraceful proceeding.
I agree with the Deputy that it is a very distasteful thing to have to do but we have been left no other option.
It is an outrageous Bill.
Petty larceny.
This is ordinary plain theft.
To compensate the Turf Club with £140,000.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 49.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neal T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Booth, Lionel.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Breen, Dan.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Gallagher, Colm.
- Galvin, John.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, James.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Griffin, James.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, Michael J.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Loughman, Frank.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- Carty, Michael.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cotter, Edward.
- Crowley, Honor M.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Mick.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Donegan, Batt.
- Dooley, Patrick.
- Fanning, John.
- Faulkner, Padraig.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Medlar, Martin.
- Moher, John W.
- Moloney, Daniel J.
- Mooney, Patrick.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Malley, Donogh.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Toole, James.
- Russell, George E.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Sheldon, William A. W.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
Níl
- Barry, Richard.
- Beirne, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Burke, James.
- Byrne, Patrick.
- Byrne, Tom.
- Carew, John.
- Coburn, George.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan D.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Esmonde, Anthony C.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finucane, Patrick.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Hogan, Bridget.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Lindsay, Patrick.
- Lynch, Thaddeus.
- McAuliffe, Patrick.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McQuillan, John.
- Manley, Timothy.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- Norton; William.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Reilly, Patrick.
- O'Sullivan, Denis J.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Rogers, Patrick J.
- Rooney, Eamonn.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tierney, Patrick.
- Wycherley, Florence.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Kyne.
Question declared carried.
Next stage?
This is a very simple Bill. Could we have the Committee Stage now?
The Minister for Health will have to content himself until next week, particularly as further penance for the fact that he was not allowed to speak on the Budget.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5th June, 1957.