Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1957

Vol. 164 No. 1

Private Deputies' Business. - Prisoners and Internees—Motion.

The following motion appeared on the Order Paper in the names of Deputies McQuillan and Finucane:—

That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Éireann and other persons who are interned and imprisoned under the Offences Against the State Acts.

Mr. McQuillan

Sir, at the outset I want to make it quite clear to the House and to all others that the motion as worded on the official Order Paper is not the motion as I submitted it.

The motion which I submitted and which is seconded by Deputy Finucane is:—

"That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Éireann and other persons who are interned under the Offences Against the State Acts."

That is the motion as submitted by me. The motion which appears on the Order Paper states:—

"That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Éireann and other persons who are interned and imprisoned under the Offences Against the State Acts."

Minister for Justice (Mr. Traynor)

If the Deputy does not like to move the motion now he can put his original motion down and let us take it straight from the Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am advised that the Deputy agreed to the revised wording.

Mr. McQuillan

As far as I am concerned, the motion I agreed to is the one I have in my hand and which was submitted to the office on the 16th or 17th October and the first time I saw this motion was when the Order Paper appeared to-day. It is possibly due to a misunderstanding. The motion which was on the White Paper a week ago is the actual motion that I wish to move.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am advised by the Office that the Deputy agreed to the wording.

Mr. Traynor

On a point of order, if I had insisted on a strict interpretation of the laws of this House the Deputy's new motion would be down at the bottom as the last of the motions; but I thought I was facilitating the Deputy by agreeing to his amended motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I want to make it clear, Sir, that I am not amending it. I am standing over what I consider is the original motion which I submitted.

Mr. Traynor

Yes, but the Deputy is suggesting that there has been something——

Mr. McQuillan

I want to make it clear that I am not for a moment suggesting that there was any interference by the Minister or by any member of the Government or anything else. I believe it is probably some mistake which occurred in drafting.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think the blame should be put on the Office. I am advised that the Deputy agreed with the motion as it now appears on the green Order Paper——

Mr. McQuillan

The green Order Paper?

An Ceann Comhairle

I tell the Deputy that I am advised that he agreed with the motion as it is now on the Order Paper.

Mr. McQuillan

I agreed with the motion I read out here and which appeared on the White Paper issued to every Deputy. This has a very important bearing on the particular issues involved and I would only like the advice of the House on this particular matter. I am prepared, if necessary, to go ahead with the second motion if the House agrees that this particular motion can be brought in immediately afterwards.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy did not make any representations to me or my office in respect of this until now. This is the first time that representations were made to me or to my office in respect of this alleged miswording of the motion.

Mr. McQuillan

I want to make the matter quite clear. The motion I have here in my hand is the motion to which I agreed and not the wording on the Order Paper.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy saw the Order Paper? It was delivered to him in time. My office is open all this day and I am available for the greater part of the day. No representations of any kind were made to me or my office.

Mr. Kyne

Might I suggest the Deputy withdraw the motion as now worded on the Green Paper because of the fact that some of us might support the motion he indicated he put down?

Mr. McQuillan

That he had in.

Mr. Kyne

The motion the Deputy had in. Those of us who might support that are not prepared to support this motion. My own personal view is that I will be prepared to support a motion against internment without trial. I am against a person who commits an offence——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not go into the merits or demerits of the matter now.

Mr. Kyne

I am only giving reasons to Deputy McQuillan so that he may be induced to withdraw the motion and put down the motion he intended.

An Ceann Comhairle

The reason I intervened was to make it clear that the Deputy agreed to the wording of the motion as it is on the Order Paper and that the Deputy had plenty of time to make representations to my office or to me to alter it. This is the first time we hear of the alleged misrecording or miswording of the motion.

Mr. Traynor

If the Deputy thinks there has been any undue interference with the motion for some insidious purpose and if he thinks he will get a fuller discussion on the motion he put down, he should withdraw his motion and let it take its place in the normal order of events. The Deputy ought not start the discussion with a charge against me, the Ceann Comhairle, the office or somebody else. There is no foundation whatever for the charge.

Mr. Casey

Might I suggest, in view of the apparent misunderstanding that has arisen, that an opportunity be given the Deputy to withdraw the motion as it appears on the Order Paper now and that his amended motion would not lose its place on the Order Paper?

Mr. McQuillan

Let me put it clearly. I do not want to be disrespectful to the Chair or the Minister. The motion I submitted is the one I read out. To-day on the Order Paper this other motion appears. Like any other Deputy, all I accepted and presumed was that I was first on the Order Paper and that the motion on the Order Paper was the one I submitted. It was not until to-day that my attention was drawn to the fact that it differed from the White Paper I submitted and drafted. The words "and imprisoned" under the Offences Against the State Acts had been introduced into the motion.

An Ceann Comhairle

That clearly is a charge against the Office.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not know whether it is a charge against——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is clearly a charge against the Office to say that the motion had been tampered with. Does the Deputy wish to alter it now?

Mr. McQuillan

I am in your hands.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am in the hands of the House. The House may do what it likes in the matter. It may accept the alteration — the deletion of the word——

Mr. McQuillan

I should like to read what I originally submitted:—

"That Dáil Eireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Eireann and other persons who are interned under the Offences Against the State Acts."

An Ceann Comhairle

The original motion I have in front of me here reads:—

"That Dáil Eireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the members of Dáil Eireann who are imprisoned and other persons imprisoned under the Offences Against the State Acts."

That was the original. Therefore, if the Deputy amended that, it would be a different motion and it should have taken its place at the bottom of the list. However——

Mr. McQuillan

I do not want to cause any difficulty on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not anxious for difficulties at all. I am anxious that my office would be protected from charges which cannot be substantiated. Let us be clear on the matter. The first motion was exactly as I have read it. The Deputy sought to mend his hand by making this improvement: "That Dáil Eireann is of the opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Eireann and other persons interned under the Offences Against the State Acts." That should be a second motion and should take its place at the bottom of the list. There was an agreement that there should be a composite motion which would be placed first, and it reads as it now appears on the Order Paper.

Mr. McQuillan

I do not want to pursue this matter any further. It is quite obvious that when I went to the trouble of remedying the original motion I did not do so for the purposes of having a substitute one that was practically the same.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a very big difference.

Mr. McQuillan

I did so in the light of recent events which took place. In July, Part II of the Offences Against the State Acts was invoked. What I would like the House to decide is: may the motion on the green Paper be amended to read as it was circulated on the 18th October?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy read the motion?

Mr. McQuillan

"That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Eireann and other persons who are interned under the Offences Against the State Acts."

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know what the House is prepared to do in respect of that. That is not the motion that is on the Order Paper.

Mr. Traynor

Let him withdraw the motion and put it down the way he wants.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is objecting to that?

Mr. Traynor

I am objecting to this petty point.

An Ceann Comhairle

Then we cannot proceed with it.

Mr. Traynor

He can move the second one if he wishes. If he wishes to make a new motion he can hand it in and it will go at the bottom of the Private Members' Business.

Mr. McQuillan

Does that mean that motion will go to the bottom of the list?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have just received the typescript of the motion that is on the Order Paper. It was sent out on the 18th October, 1957. A copy was sent to every Deputy. There is a note also on the bottom: "This motion is in substitution for two related motions already circulated." The motion is: "Dáil Eireann is of opinion that the Government should forthwith release from custody the member of Dáil Eireann and other persons interned and imprisoned under the Offences Against the State Acts." With the evidence of this, I do not think there is any use in proceeding any further with this discussion. There were agreed alterations, and as there is not agreement I am holding the motion is not moved and the House will now proceed to the next motion, No. 25. Is the Deputy moving No. 25?

Mr. McQuillan

I am in rather a difficulty, Sir, with regard to that. I did not expect this situation to arise here to-night. I find there are a number of other motions on the Order Paper in my own name, and I had not so far an opportunity of preparing detailed material which I would like to put before the House in respect of these motions. I did not expect that motion No. 25 would come before the House until later on in the session.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not prepared to move No. 25?

Mr. McQuillan

Yes, Sir, I am.

Motion No. 24 not moved.