Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1957

Vol. 164 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Agricultural Institute Bill, 1957—Money Resolution.

Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha (Proinnsias Mac Aogáin)

Tairgim:—

Chun críche aon Achta a rithfear sa tsiosón seo do dhéanamh socruithe chun institiúid taighde thalmhaíochta dá ngairmfear An Foras Talúntais a bhunú agus do dhéanamh socruithe i dtaobh nithe eile a bhaineas leis sin, go bhfuil sé oiriúnach a údarú:—

(1) go n-íocfar leis an bhForas, as airgead atá sa Chuntas Speisialta Contrapháirteach mar mínítear sin san Acht sin, suim ocht gcéad agus dachad míle punt ar a dtabharfar Ciste Caipitil an Fhorais Talúntais;

(2) go n-íocfar leis an bhForas, as airgead atá sa Chuntas Speisialta Contrapháirteach mar mínítear sin san Acht sin, suim milliúin punt ar a dtabharfar Ciste Dearlaice an Fhorais Talúntais;

(3) go n-íocfar leis an bhForas, i ngach bliain airgeadais as airgead a sholáthrós an tOireachtas, deontas i leith a chaiteachas de pé méid a chinnfeas an tAire Airgeadais i gcomhairle leis an Aire Talmhaíochta agus le Comhairle an Fhorais; agus

(4) go n-íocfar as airgead a sholáthrós an tOireachtas na caiteachais faoina raghfar ag riaradh an Achta sin.

Mr. Dillon

I think the Minister for External Affairs might with propriety avail of this occasion to give us some indication of the Government's mind in regard to the financing of the institute. There is available in this scheme a capital sum which the institute must disperse on capital works. Over and above that, there is an endowment of £1,000,000, the income of which will be available to the institute, year by year. But is it the intention of the Government to restrict the activities of the institute to what may be financed by the income of that fund? To put it at its best, the income, even invested in present rates of interest, would produce something in the order of £60,000. Is it the intention of the Government to supplement that income and, if so, to what extent is the Government prepared to say that, in respect of any work which is of a desirable character, they are prepared to provide the funds? Or do they wish to say that, subject to a certain annual limit, they will be prepared to find money from the Exchequer to supplement the work of the institute set up under this Bill? Unless some declaration of that kind is made now, I think we are giving the institute rather a poor send-off.

I do not think I am overstating the case if I say I believe that the American Government holds the view that there was a concomitant understanding, if not a binding undertaking, that the Irish Government would, from the Exchequer, supplement the income which the institute would derive from the endowment. The Minister for External Affairs would remember that, in the very early stages of the discussion relating to these proposals, the American Government expressed the strongest reservations about any proposal to appropriate any of the available money for the purpose of the endowment. They felt that all the available money should be for the purpose of capital works, leaving the responsibility for endowment squarely on the shoulders of the Irish Government. I think that view was associated with the kinds of proposals that were originally incorporated in the White Paper from which this Bill marks a considerable departure. But the American Government, having discussed the matter further with the Irish Government, expressed their preparedness to meet the Irish Government's view in changing their original position and in consenting to a sum of £800,000 odd being earmarked for capital purposes and a sum of £1,000,000 being reserved as a standing endowment of the institute.

I think we would be doing less than our part if we did not avail of this stage of our legislation to make a declaration on behalf of our Government that we were prepared to find the finance to meet any additional work which it was requisite and appropriate for the institute to undertake over and above what the income from the endowment fund would finance, subject, of course, to the inescapable limitation that such an undertaking was given within the limit of our available resources.

I think this institute, if it succeeds, as I hope it will succeed, will in the long term be in a position profitably to use for the benefit of this country an income substantially in excess of £60,000 a year. I would suggest to the Minister that this is the appropriate time to say that if and when that time arrives neither the Government nor Dáil Éireann will be backward in matching the munificence of the American Government with suitable generosity on the part of the Treasury to the common beneficiary which is the agricultural industry and the national economy of Ireland.

Major de Valera

I take it this is on the Money Resolution?

Mr. Dillon

Is not this the appropriate time?

Major de Valera

On the Money Resolution. In answer to Deputy Dillon, as I see it, in the nature of this Bill, which is merely an enabling Bill, there is a great deal of detail to be filled in and to be worked out. I fail to see how the Minister can go any further than the provisions of Sections 11 and 12 of the Bill, which we will debate when we come to them in Committee. In Section 11 there is the provision for endowment and in Section 12 there is the usual provision for annual grants. I find it very hard to get Deputy Dillon's point as to how we can go specifically any further in the nature of the case here. The Bill empowers the setting up of this institute. It does no more, as we said on Second Reading, than to give the powers. The erection of the structure by means of these powers has yet to be done and until the structure is pretty well defined in its details I fail to see how the Government or anybody else can go any further in financial provisions than the enabling provisions in Sections 11 and 12.

Mr. Aiken

I wish I could give the assurance that Deputy Dillon asked for in his opening sentence, that we would guarantee that this institute would get all the money it wanted for any work of a desirable character.

Mr. Dillon

Within the limits of our resources.

Mr. Aiken

That was away down, afterwards. To take that particular matter first, I must say that I would be glad to be able to give that guarantee and that we would give the institute plenty of work that would cost a lot of money. This Bill provides, first of all, that the Government may add to these funds available to the institute for research, and so on, and that the funds of the institute which derive from the capital sum will, of course, be in addition to all the sums that are already being spent by various institutions throughout the country. The sums that are given to University College, Dublin, to many other places, like Johnstown, and all the rest of it, will continue to be spent—the sums that are ordinarily provided in the Vote. Over and above that, the £50,000 or £60,000, or whatever it is, the interest acruing on this capital sum, will be added and over and above that again there is the provision, as the Deputy is aware—Deputy Major de Valera alluded to it—in Section 12:—

"For the purpose of assisting the institute to carry out effectively it functions under this Act, there shal be paid to the institute in every financial year, out of the moneys provided by the Oireachtas, a grant towards the expenses of the institute the amount of which shall be determined by the Minister for Finance in consultation with the Minister and the council."

Heretofore, there was a certain sum of money allotted in the Estimates each year for research, which was spent through the existing institutions. Under this Bill and out of the fund there will be an additional £50,000 or £60,000, whichever the interest is and, in addition to that, provision is made to add to the total whatever money the Minister for Agriculture can get out of the Minister for Finance in the light of the necessity for further expenditure and also in the light of the resources of the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Dillon

The difference between what I said and what he said is not remarkable except that I think that I said it a good deal better than he said it.

Major de Valera

But do not you always?

Question put and agreed to.

Money Resolution reported and agreed to.