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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Feb 1958

Vol. 165 No. 1

Public Business. - Trustee (Authorised Investments) Bill, 1957—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This is, to a large extent, an agreed measure, as the previous Government had approved the preparation of legislation on the general lines of the Bill.

The Bill does not amend the general law relating to trusts. Its primary purpose is to redefine the investments in which trustees may invest trust moneys unless expressly forbidden by the instrument (if any) creating the trust. The law concerning the investment of trust funds affords guidance to trustees who are given no specific direction or authority in the instrument of trust. For the protection of the beneficiaries, the choice of trustees, in such cases, is limited by law to certain investments. The primary qualification of these investments is that they should be secure and, subject to this, that they should favour the life tenant in regard to the annual yield so far as that is compatible with the preservation of the capital for the benefit of the remainderman.

The law to-day in this country in regard to trustee investments is based for the most part on the Trustee Act, 1893. Subsequent to that Act, numerous amendments of and additions to the basic list of trustee investments were made by British statutes up to the time of the setting up of the Irish State. Since then the range of trustee investments has been further affected by a number of Irish statutes and by the rules of the High Court and the Supreme Court. At present a wide range of statutes and the rules of court have to be consulted to ascertain what are trustee investments, and there is doubt about the trustee qualifications of some of the securities mentioned in the earlier British Acts. Apart from the difficulty of ascertaining what are in law trustee securities, some which are legally available to trustees are not appropriate to the circumstances of this country.

The Bill, therefore, amends and, at the same time, consolidates the list of authorised trustee securities so as to make it more appropriate to current Irish conditions. It was circulated in draft form to interested bodies, including the Central Bank, the Irish Banks Standing Committee, the Dublin and Cork Stock Exchanges, the Federation of Irish Manufacturers, the Incorporated Law Society, the Chief Justice, the President of the High Court and the Superior Courts Rule-making Committee. The draft Bill was amended so as to take into account, where appropriate, various points raised by these bodies. After the Bill had been introduced, one of these bodies—the Incorporated Law Society raised points in connection with the investment of court moneys and redeemable bond insurance policies; there matters will be further examined prior to the Committee Stage.

Section 1 of the Bill lists the securities in which trustees may, in the absence of any prohibition in the trust instrument, invest trust moneys. This list replaces that set forth at Section 1 of the Trustee Act, 1893, as amended and extended by subsequent enactments. It is, broadly, the 1893 list, so amended and extended, with the exclusion of foreign securities, other than British Government securities inscribed or registered in the State, and with the addition of certain Irish investments such as deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank and Trustee Savings Banks, certain local authority stocks and debentures or debenture stocks of certain Irish industrial and commercial companies.

It is considered desirable that, in general, foreign securities should be excluded from the authorised list not alone because they are outside the jurisdiction but also because, so long as capital for domestic needs is scarce and there is an adequate range of Irish investments suitable for trust moneys, it is inappropriate that trustees should have statutory authority for investing trust funds outside the State. British Government securities registered or inscribed in the State have, however, been retained in the list in deference to the view expressed that their inclusion would provide a more gradual approach to the intention of the Bill and would enable trustees to avail of the convenience of a local register. The retention of these securities in the list does not involve a departure from the principle that, ultimately, foreign securities should not have trustee status. No new securities have been added to the Irish Legister since 1922 and the existing securities on the Register will, therefore, eventually disappear through redemption and sales; since 1922 the nominal value of British Government securities on the Register has diminished from £100,000,000 to its present figure of £40,000,000.

Taking marketable securities alone, that is, ignoring items which are not quoted on a stock exchange, such as bank deposits, saving certificates and real securities, the total nominal value of the quoted securities included in the authorised list is about £314,000,000. An active market for the National Loans included in the list is secured by the arrangement initiated in 1954 by which the Government stock broker stands ready to buy and sell Governmental Stocks at stated prices and up to stated amounts. These arrangements have also been extended to certain local authority and other securities included in the authorised list. I am satisfied, therefore, that the revised list will provide trustees with adequate investment outlets. If, however, this expectation is not realised, the Bill provides machinery in Section 2 whereby the list can be varied, as considered necessary from time to time. Variations will be effected by Orders which will be made after consultation with outside bodies and which will not come into effect until they have been approved by each House of the Oireachtas.

Section 3 of the Bill provides that moneys under the control of the courts shall be invested only in the securities authorised for the investment of trust funds. Under the Trustee Act, 1893, a trustee may invest in any securities authorised by the High Court for the investment of cash under its control. In consequence of this position there are at present two codes of trustee investments; one consisting of the securities specified in the 1893 statute, as extended and amended, and the other consisting of those authorised by rules of court. The power of the courts to add further to the trustee list was removed by Section 13 of the Approved Investments Act, 1933, but the courts were left authority to invest court moneys as they saw fit to prescribe. By prescribing the same investment list for court moneys as for trustee funds, the Bill completes the process which was begun in 1933. Given an adequate range of trustee investments specifically authorised by an Act of the Oireachtas, there is no case for a separate court list.

Section 4 enables trustees to effect redeemable bond insurance policies, against redemption by drawing of bonds at a price less than current or cost price, and also provides for the charging of the premiums against income or capital, or partly against income or partly against capital. Under the section, trustees would, for example, be empowered to take out insurance against the redemption of land bonds by lot at a price less than market or cost price. In present circumstances, when the market prices of such bonds are less than par, the question may not be material, but the power to take out such insurance could be of importance to trustees in the future, as it has been in the past.

Section 5 contains a saver for existing trustee and court investments. The position of existing trustee investments is already secured by Section 4 of the Trustee Act, 1893, Amendment Act, 1894, which provides that a trustee shall not be liable for a breach of trust by reason only of his continuing to hold an investment which has ceased to be an investment authorised by the instrument of trust or by the general law. Since, however, the present Bill consolidates and amends the authorised investment list to which the investment of court funds would also be restricted, it is considered desirable that it should contain an express saver for existing trustee and court funds.

Section 6 provides for the repeal of previous enactments which conferred trustee status on certain investments.

It will be seen from Section 7 that the Bill will not come into operation until three months after it has been passed. This waiting period will give adequate notice to trustees with money in course of investment.

This is a Bill which will be largely acceptable by both sides of the House because of the fact that it is a Bill the birth of which was commenced when the inter-Party Government was in power. On the general principle that it is desirable that we should have a code of our own on trustee investments, there will be no difference of opinion whatsoever.

This Bill, therefore, provides that the code will be one which will be set down in our own Statutes and it goes some part of the way towards ensuring that, where no specific discretion has been given in the instrument setting up the trust, the investment of the trust funds will be utilised, while preserving the value of the investment, for the purpose of the development of the Irish economy.

There has been some misconception in certain quarters about the purpose of the Bill. It would be as well, therefore, as the Minister himself said, I think, that it should be restated that the purpose of this Bill is to deal solely with cases in which the instrument setting up the trust has not itself defined the investment in which the trust or portfolio is to be invested. It is only to cover such absence of specific direction by the set law, whether that set law be deed or will, that this Bill comes to operate.

I was a little surprised that the Minister did not expand more on the power in the Bill, for the first time, I think, to have debentures here extended as a means of investment of trust funds. The 1893 Act permitted the investment of trust funds, as well as I can recollect, in both railway and water concerns, but not ordinary commercial concerns. Therefore, the power of investment that is given in clause (i) of sub-section (1) is a considerable extension over and above the existing law. It is an extension which, while preserving the capital of any fund, should make it easier for some Irish industrial concerns to obtain loan capital. We all agree that that is a good and progressive move.

I always understood that it was not considered appropriate to count the placing of money on deposit as an investment and yet I see in clause (g) of Section 1, I think, for the first time, the specific provision by virtue of which money on deposit is an authorised investment. It was always the feeling that it was permissible to place money on deposit while trustees were awaiting a suitable investment and I understood, certainly at one stage, that this Bill did confirm that existing practice and that it would not carry on as it does now carry on in Section 1 to authorise trustees permanently to keep trust funds on deposit. I do not think it is desirable that trustees should be so authoried to deal with the matter on a permanent basis like that. It is obviously right that trustees should have the widest possible discretion during the period for which they keep money on deposit, pending investment, but as a permanent investment, the placing of money on deposit account with one of these specified banks does not appear to me to be the correct approach.

In relation to clause (k) in Section 1, has the Minister got any information to show how the volume in nominal value of British Government securities inscribed or registered here has been decreasing over the years? The Minister suggested that those securities, having been all created before 1922, would gradually go by redemption or by sale. I do not think that is quite an accurate picture because, when securities which were created by the British Government before 1922 come to the maturity date, if they are securities with a specific maturity date, it is always the practice to offer a conversion alternative and the conversion alternative continues to be inscribed and registered here.

War stock was originally created somewhere between 1916 and 1922. I do not know the exact date. It was converted in 1931 and in 1932. Again, I am not sure of the exact date. It was converted from 5 per cent. stock on maturity to the present 3½ per cent. stock and, when it was so converted, the converted stock subsequently retained its inscription in the Bank of Ireland. Therefore, I think it can be taken as a pattern that every time a security comes to maturity, the conversion offer will be availed of to some extent, that the inscription of the conversion offer will remain in the Bank of Ireland, and that, therefore, the stock will remain there.

From my recollection, the clause permitting continued investment in British Government securities is a new clause in the Bill as I had seen it drafted before submission to various Parties. It may be that there are overwhelming and cogent reasons for its inclusion. I should have thought that a better provision would be to provide that where there were already funds in any such investment, further funds in that investment might be bought rather than new funds put into such investments. I think it would often be desirable to even up a trust portfolio in relation to any specific investment in that portfolio. I can quite understand and accept that, but to open out a new trust investment in the circumstances indicated would not appear to have at all the same merit.

I did not quite understand the Minister's reference to the points that had been raised with him by the Incorporated Law Society. He said they would be considered, if I heard him aright or that they had been considered——

No, that they would be considered.

That is what I understood, but a few minutes afterwards the Minister said flat-footedly that there was nothing at all in one of the points that the Incorporated Law Society had mentioned. Of course he did not say that they had mentioned it, but the society raised the question of discretion of the court to arrange investments in certain cases and the Minister then came along and said flat-footedly a few minutes afterwards that there was no case whatever for the court to have any such discretion.

It seems to me that if the Minister really meant that, he is not likely to give much consideration to the points put forward by the society but since we are, I think, in a very much nicer and milder atmosphere in discussing this measure than the atmosphere that was operative when the Minister came in at 6 o'clock, I think I might say there was a slip of the Minister's pen or tongue. I feel sure that he will give full consideration to the points put up. Obviously it is an entirely different situation for individual trustees, people dealing with trust funds, to have to consider the point from the position when there are funds held in court.

There are often cases where a person has become of unsound mind and who, for example, has a business of some sort and it is necessary that the business should be carried over a dangerous period or necessary that the business should have more liquid funds for its maintenance on a capital basis. Such cases will often arise and, in my view, it would be wrong if the President of the High Court who has jurisdiction over persons of unsound mind, as he has over minors, could not permit investment in the business belonging to the ward of court by reason of this Bill.

Frankly, I do not think that was in any way intended when the Bill was being framed and I believe it would be very undesirable that the power of financing a business for a ward of court, particularly for one who is only temporarily a ward of court, should be hampered or prevented as it is prevented in this Bill as now drafted.

The Minister made a point in relation to Section 4. He is aware that representations have been made to him that it is undesirable that power should be there to charge the premium payable for redemption of bonds either against capital or income. The point has been made that the law should determine where the burden should lie rather than that discretion should be left to the trustees. It is a matter on which there could be two points of view. Personally, while I concede the view put forward that this is a discretion which should not be imposed on trustees, nevertheless there is equally a view to be expressed that trustees should have some little discretion in making up their own minds in relation to what is fair as between the remainderman and the tenant for life.

I do not feel at all as strongly on that point as I do in relation to the power that should be vested in the court to invest in the ward's own business. Lest anybody might think I was suggesting in any way that was a pitfall that the Minister had fallen into and that I was putting up the white sheet and saying that intensely restrictive provision was in the Bill when I was in the Minister's seat and that if there is any blame, it should attach to myself as well as to the Minister for carrying it on, I want to say this is a good measure. It is a small measure and one that should be accepted by the House.

Deputy Sweetman has dealt very fairly with many of the points that arise on this Bill. Indeed, he has put certain points rather better than I would have been able and I should like to agree with the substance of most of what he has said.

Taking his last point first—about Section 4—I would be inclined to agree with the view of the Incorporated Law Society that the duty cast on trustees by Section 4 should not be cast on them, but having myself acted as a trustee and having thereby gained some experience of what is involved, I feel that in a delicate matter of this kind the onus should not be left on the trustees but rather on the court.

I appreciate that there can be two points of view in this matter. There cannot, however, be two points of view, I think, about the attitude of the Incorporated Law Society to the provisions of Section 3 as they stand at the present time. It is possible that the Bill was never intended to mean that the court would have removed from it a jurisdiction which I regard as essential——

It was never understood by one person to mean that. Perhaps I should have understood it better, but I did not understand it would do that.

If it does, I think there should be no doubt one way or the other about it in the Bill, when it is enacted, on this point.

It did not occur to me on reading the Bill, as Deputy Sweetman pointed out, that the lodgment of money in bank is now to be regarded as a trustee investment. If that is so, it certainly represents a departure from current practice and one which I do not think is desirable. I should like to support him specifically on that issue.

I welcome this Bill, which has a very laudable purpose, and I believe the Minister will consider very carefully the points raised by the Incorporated Law Society and by Deputy Sweetman. There is nothing contentious here; the purpose of the Bill is to try to improve existing law as far as possible.

With regard to debentures, having consulted all the various people I enumerated when I was introducing the Bill, it was thought desirable to put debentures in amongst the securities that could be availed of by trustees. As Deputy Flanagan says, it is a Bill that we would all like to agree upon and, if there is any strong objection to any point like that, it can be considered. I do not say that Deputy Sweetman expressed any strong objection against it.

I expressed strong approval.

The Deputy said it was a new departure.

It is, and a good one.

Very good. With regard to deposits, as far as I am aware—I may be wrong—there is no change as far as a bank's deposits are concerned. The provision was already there, but it was always understood to be used as a temporary measure until permanent investments would be made and, very naturally, the person in charge of a trust would prefer to make a more permanent investment because there would be a better income therefrom. I do not think there is any change, but I can have that matter examined to see if there is a change in procedure there.

I was also asked about the value of the British Government securities on the Irish Register. The figure I gave —£40,000,000—is the present nominal value of these securities. That is an item that will gradually disappear. I do not know exactly when that may be, but they will disappear at some time. Again, I am not sure what the position is as to the point raised by Deputy Sweetman, relating to British stock that is converted. He said that there would be power to inscribe in the Bank of Ireland the stock issued by way of conversion. I will look that up.

That is a subject with which I am professionally well acquainted, and it is so.

It is the case?

It is the case.

We may perhaps deal with that by way of amendment, if an amendment is found necessary.

War stock is the easiest example of that.

With regard to deposits, I should say that there is no change made, except that, under the Rules of Court, deposits could be made only at the Bank of Ireland. I think it was when the Central Bank Act was passed that provision was made to include other banks and now we are including here Post Office Savings Banks, Trustee Savings Banks and Guinness and Mahon. It is a gradual evolution, if you like, but there is no change in principle.

As I said already, the idea behind that is—the two Deputies who have spoken have much more experience of this than I have—that sometimes the transactions connected with these trusts take some time and the trustees may find it necessary to put the money on deposit while clearing things up.

The other point mentioned by Deputy Sweetman related to matters raised by the Incorporated Law Society. I may have given the wrong impression, but I certainly did not intend to close the door against any suggestion they made. I had an opportunity of looking at the suggestions, but I did not examine them in detail. I mean to examine them in detail within the next day or two and should be in a position then to make up my mind what I will recommend to the Dáil by way of amendment, if I consider an amendment is justified. The Deputy is aware of the recommendations made by the Incorporated Law Society and if he finds that I do not put down an amendment to cover any point he is interested in, he will be quite free to put down an amendment himself, and we can let the Dáil debate the point and see what is the best arrangement to make. I think I should be in a position to circulate my amendments in a few days' time, so the Deputy will have time then to make up his mind.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 26th February, 1958.
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