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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1958

Vol. 165 No. 6

Price of Wheat—Motion.

I move:—

That Dáil Éireann condemns the Government for their repudiation of the specific undertaking given to wheat growers during the election campaign, as set out in their official election literature, that only an immediate Government decision to restore the 1954 price of 82/6 per barrel could save Irish wheat-growing from disaster.

The purpose of this motion is to expose the fraud, the dishonesty and the broken promises of Fianna Fáil regarding the price of wheat. Ever since the price of wheat was fixed by Deputy Dillon, when Minister for Agriculture in 1955, Fianna Fáil have been carrying on a campaign and have been making promises undertaking to restore the 1954 price of 82/6 per barrel. On every opportunity they repeated promises to that effect. They concentrated on this matter especially during the by-election campaigns in Laois-Offaly and in Carlow-Kilkenny prior to the last general election. Both of these constituencies were important wheat-growing areas, and several Fianna Fáil Deputies, speaking from election platforms, assured the farmers that the 1954 price would be restored as soon as Fianna Fáil were returned to power. That had a very desirable effect as far as Fianna Fáil were concerned. The farmers in Laois-Offaly, who had suffered a reduction in the price of wheat and who were consequently annoyed with the Government, were glad to hear the Fianna Fáil pledges to the effect that the price of wheat would be restored to 82/6 a barrel.

The same occurred in the Carlow-Kilkenny constituencies. We had Deputy Corry in Kilkenny telling the farmers that he would be the next Minister for Agriculture and that he would see to it that the farmers would get 82/6 a barrel for their wheat. He fought very hard on that line, going all over the country. Of course if Deputy Corry had got the Ministry of Agriculture I have no doubt he would have made a harder fight on behalf of the grain growers than the present Minister made. I do not think wheat would be the same price as it is to-day if Deputy Corry were Minister. However, the Taoiseach attended a meeting in Kilkenny at which Deputy Corry gave a solemn undertaking that Fianna Fáil would restore the price to 82/6 per barrel. Accordingly, the Taoiseach is brought into this matter because if he were not satisfied with Deputy Corry's utterances on that occasion he could have said so. The present Minister also honoured us with a visit to the constituency and he was not backward about the same promises.

Give us the quotation.

I shall tell the Minister what he said.

Of course you will.

The Minister attended a meeting at Leighlinbridge.

And made a good speech, too.

He strutted up and down from one church gate to another——

Carrying a bag of wheat.

——telling the farmers about the wonders that would take place and giving an undertaking that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power the price of wheat would be restored to 82/6 per barrel.

Give us quotations.

I remember well what the Minister said.

I am not prepared to depend on the Deputy's memory.

Well I am.

The Deputy was not there anyhow.

Is the Minister sure I was not there?

Everybody knows the Minister said that. That is common knowledge.

I believe you.

I can give 20 quotations.

Possibly at that time the present Minister never dreamed he would be Minister for Agriculture now. At that time he could say anything he liked. To-day he has the responsibility. Of course, we had the same line up during the general election; we had the very same kind of statement from people speaking for Fianna Fáil. Wherever they happened to have a number of farmers, and especially wheat growers, listening to them, they pressed it home that they were going to restore the price to 82/6 a barrel.

At that time, we had an election broadcast and the present Minister for Finance made it quite clear then that if his Party were returned to power, he would see that the 82/6 was given. He criticised what had been done; he criticised the previous cut in the price and said it was cruel and unjust that this price should be cut down to a level which the farmers believed was uneconomic. He went on to say that a remunerative price would be fixed for wheat growing, by Fianna Fáil: I wonder if the Minister believes the present arrangement is a remunerative price.

What is the price?

That is the trick; no one knows what the price is. After the general election, the people expected that, with all these promises, they would not have to wait for this year's crop, but that the price would be restored immediately. We had Deputy Corry putting down a question here, very shortly after the new Government was formed. He asked the Minister for Agriculture:—

"if, in view of the absolute necessity for increasing the wheat acreage this year, and in view of the endorsement of the wheat policy by the people—"

that, of course, was the inducement that they were going to give 82/6—

"he will state what steps he intends to take to secure by financial inducement an increased wheat acreage this season; and if, in view of the lateness of the season, he will make an immediate statement on the matter."

The reply to that was given by Deputy Aiken, who was acting Minister for Agriculture at the time:—

"No alteration of the price of wheat in these last days of March could appreciably affect the acreage of wheat this year.

I can, however, assure Deputy Corry that the necessity for securing an adequate acreage of wheat is fully realised by the Government, and that an announcement regarding wheat prices will be made in good time to enable farmers to prepare for the autumn sowing season."

That is taken from Volume 161, column 43. Even at that time, the Minister for Agriculture was not prepared to come in and admit what the facts were, that the Government were facing a surplus in wheat production, and, in spite of that, he was prepared to play this game.

The new price arrangement was announced late in January and it came in such a way that the people were just fooled by it. It was announced over the radio that the price was the same as for the 1957 crop. Of course, that was most misleading again. The price, as every farmer and everyone else realises, is not the same; it is a very serious reduction. We do not know what the reduction may be. It was announced in such a way, to try to fool the farmers again.

This new price, coming as late as it did in the season, has put many growers in a very awkward position. Due to the promises made during the election, the growers really believed they would get the 1954 price—not last year's price at all, but the 1954 price. As a result, coming towards the end of January, quite an amount of land was ploughed to put wheat in. If farmers had known the facts in time, this might not have happened. People purchased expensive agricultural machinery, tractors, combines and machinery of that nature, for wheat production. Also, people have been affected by taking dear conacre, expecting that the price would be increased. That has been very misleading and has been very bad for the wheat growers. They have been absolutely let down by the Government.

We have been told that the N.F.A. are in agreement with this new wheat arrangement. That is not so at all. The N.F.A. have accepted the principle of the married price and that is as far as they have gone. The Minister put a gun to their head when he gave them an alternative, that is, the rationing of wheat acreage. That would mean we would have inspectors out again. Of course, the present Minister is very fond of having inspectors, as far as the farmers are concerned. We had experience of that in 1947 and I would not be surprised if the Minister would like to have another go at that. The farmers' organisation were not anxious to take that, but the only alternative was to try to arrange this surplus. I think the whole problem of the wheat price rests on this surplus.

The present system could not be accepted, for several reasons. First of all, at the moment, on the present extraction, we have 20 per cent. of foreign wheat being used. It is generally believed that that could be reduced considerably. I do not know what the Minister's views are on that, but it seems that the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the millers and the large machine bakers in this city and in other big towns are not prepared to accept the change over. There has been a demand here all along to grow our whole requirements of wheat. Fianna Fáil have pressed that very hard. We have got our requirements of wheat now and it is a Fianna Fáil Government that is refusing to allow that to be used. It is used only in proportion—only 80 per cent. in our present flour. There is nothing to stop us using far more. The extraction has been reduced recently by 6 per cent., down to 72 per cent., and that will use up some more of the native wheat, but it will also have the effect, if the admixture is allowed to remain at the same level, 80 per cent., that we will have to import more foreign wheat.

In this financial year it is estimated we will use 117,000 tons of foreign wheat. That is a disgraceful position when we have a surplus of wheat here in the country. A serious effort could be made, but the present Minister is not interested in wheat. That is the trouble. The Minister for Industry and Commerce seems to be able to put it over that, with the present wheat, we cannot have more than 80 per cent. of Irish wheat, with 20 per cent. of foreign wheat. That is something which should be changed and a change might get over the present problem.

We have a few extraordinary things happening in relation to this whole wheat question. It has always been said in this House that the previous Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, was "anti-wheat". Fianna Fáil always made that a very strong point all over the country, but it is extraordinary that it was during Deputy Dillon's administration that we got a surplus of wheat in this country. Now we have all the wheat we require but the Minister is not prepared to make use of that. He is prepared to convert quite a big proportion of that to animal feeding. That is very wrong. The present Government told the people they would see that the 82/6 per barrel, the 1954 price, was restored. Under the present arrangements no farmer knows what price he will get for next year's wheat crop.

It would have been far better if the Minister had stated definitely what the cut would be. There was nothing to stop him from arriving at a figure. He seems to be more concerned with getting the inspectors out again. In 1947 he threatened the farmers that if they did not produce wheat he would fill the fields with inspectors. To-day he is going to put the inspectors out to see that they do not grow wheat. The wheat growers have been very badly let down by the present Government in spite of the promises they made and in the light of what has taken place.

I wish to second this motion. I do not propose to give any quotations of speeches made by Ministers or Deputies of the opposite Party. It is a generally accepted fact from their speeches during the last election that the avowed policy of that Party was to return to the wheat price of 1954. That was expressly stated throughout the length and breadth of the country by members of the Front Bench and back benches of the Fianna Fáil Party with the result that they achieved considerable electoral success in the areas in which wheat is extensively grown.

Let me give to the House a few results in the different constituencies. In my own constituency of Wexford, for the first time in history we have three Fianna Fáil T.D.s. Wexford, as the House knows, is the premier wheat growing county in Ireland, in fact the premier tillage county in Ireland. In Carlow-Kilkenny they won a seat. In Wicklow they won a seat. I do not remember their ever having two Fianna Fáil T.D.s before in Wicklow.

It was not a bad operation for old men as we are.

I shall tell the Minister plenty about his operations later on if he gives me the opportunity. In Dublin County, also an extensive wheat-growing area, they won a seat. In Louth they won a seat and also in Meath. That is not bad for a beginning. That is six seats the Fianna Fáil Party gained in the last election on the strength of their wheat policy. Is it any wonder that this Party, who had to take decisions which were necessary in the national interest, should draw attention to these facts? Is it not a known fact that when this Party was in power in a Coalition with other Parties, the then Minister for Agriculture had to reduce the price of wheat? It was an overall national decision. It was necessary to do so because in 1954 when the then Minister for Agriculture was going out of power he fixed the price at 82/6 which was above the world price. That has been repeatedly denied by Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party but it is true. It was above the world price.

It was necessary to produce a subsidy to carry that and it was uneconomic for this country to allow that price. Added to that there was a vast number of people in this country who had never seen the land in their lives and who were taking land on conacre and cashing in on the very high wheat price. I shall be perfectly frank and say that I did what I could to maintain the price as high as possible in the interests of my own people in Wexford because I believe that there are six or seven counties which are more or less the granary of Ireland. Unless the people in those counties are given a reasonable price for their produce they cannot be expected to continue producing. I must admit I was wrong from the subsequent results.

The Fianna Fáil Party have claimed to be many things, but one thing in particular they always claimed to be is the wheat Party. They are the people who said: "Grow more wheat." They spent thousands of pounds on advertisements stuck on hoardings all over the country telling the people to grow more wheat. This is the greatest volte face in history. The Fianna Fáil policy now is: “Grow less wheat.” When we were in office we got more wheat grown than they did. Admittedly the yield of the land increased because the land had improved due to the lime scheme which came into operation in 1947. As a consequence, farmers who were getting small yields in wheat before were getting big yields, but the fact remains that we had more wheat produced on a lesser acreage than Fianna Fáil ever had, notwithstanding all the money they spent on advertisements and propaganda.

To-day we have Fianna Fáil with an overwhelming majority. They find that because of world conditions and falling prices outside, not only in relation to wheat but foodstuffs generally, they have to reduce prices. They have this huge majority now and why do they not use it to reduce the wheat price with a fixed floor on it? The Gilbertian situation we have at the moment is that no farmer, if he grows wheat, knows what he will get for it. There is no fixed or guaranteed price for wheat now.

I am not blaming the Minister for Agriculture for this. It is an overall decision taken by the Government but I should like to point out that in those six constituencies I have mentioned they have three Ministers, two senior Ministers and a junior Minister. It is quite natural to assume that those Ministers would have the interests of their constituents at heart and that they would endeavour to maintain the price of wheat. If the Government found it necessary, due to national conditions—we accept national conditions in this Party and always have accepted them—to make a reduction they could have fixed a price, having three Ministers from wheat growing counties in the Cabinet. Therefore, I indict not necessarily the Minister for Agriculture —though he in the high office he holds must take the blame for it—but the Government as a whole.

Last October when I was coming back from Strasbourg I bought a copy of Figaro, one of the leading French dailies. In it I discovered the fixed prices for agricultural produce for the year. I brought that paper home and gave it to the late Minister for Agriculture, Senator Moylan, for which he was very grateful. It was an indication of world prices generally. There is a country that grows a good deal of wheat and in fact exports wheat as a surplus in spite of the big population of 40,000,000.

I gave these prices to the then Minister and these prices were fixed at a time when the franc was depreciating in value. I am going to give the Minister and the House the prices on the falling value of the franc. The present value of the franc is 1,167 to the £. That was yesterday's quotation. The price of wheat in France is 28/5 per cwt., sterling value. I am not a mathematician but I think that works out at somewhere around 70/- per barrel. That is the minimum fixed price. France is not a predominantly agricultural country such as we are, but her Ministry of Agriculture, last October, was able to give the farmers a fixed price.

We are a predominantly agricultural country but our Government is not able to give the Irish farmers a fixed price for wheat. In addition, if the Government saw themselves in difficulties over the possibility of too much wheat being grown here, it was reasonable to assume that they would encourage farmers to grow something else, that they would give farmers some sort of indication as to where they stood. We waited until the other day for any sort of fixed price for an alternative crop of barley. If the Government wanted to ensure that the farmers were not going to grow an excess of wheat, they would have given them an alternative crop to grow.

We want barley. We want it for feeding purposes and we do not want to continue importing it. They were perfectly safe in fixing the price for it the same as last year because most of it sold for 5/- above the fixed price They could not do that without ensuring there was no alternative for the farmers. The Minister for Agriculture is a farmer himself and he must know that we have got to make arrangements beforehand. Whatever else he could do, the farmer has not got resources of income to draw on such as the people who may control the Government have, such as the financiers and businessmen. I see that the Taoiseach is laughing.

I have to laugh.

He may laugh but they are not laughing in the tillage areas in the country. They have no resources to draw on. Perhaps the front benchers or those in the second benches may not see that, but the back benchers can see it because a lot of them are farmers. The farmers have got to have the money to pay their rates, which are going up all the time. The only guaranteed cash crop they have—if it is guaranteed—is wheat. Therefore, if the Government—not necessarily the Minister because he is not long in office—wanted to control the amount of wheat grown, they could have fixed an alternative.

What is the overall position? The price of bread is going up and the price of wheat is going down. That is the sorry story which Fianna Fáil have to offer the country. Now to come to the question of wheat itself. I hope the Minister will intervene in this debate and clarify the position. Many of my constituents have come to me, and I am sure they have gone to Deputy Browne as well, to know what is going to happen. In regard to assessing the amount of wheat, it means the usual story. We will have many more civil servants and inspectors and, of course, to get them you have got to get the consent of the Department of Finance, but the Department of Finance will willingly give that consent. They are going to save money out of the Irish farmer.

I presume there are only two ways in which to assess the amount of wheat. One way is by inspectors with high-powered motor cars touring the tillage counties, looking over the ditch and assessing the amount of wheat. The higher they assess it, the better they would be with their employers. The more they assess, the less it will cost the Government, the less the Government will give the farmers. The other method is that the inspectors go into the millers and then we will have a bigger file in the Department of Agriculture and in the Department of Industry and Commerce. They will look for further staff and we will have further civil servants then.

How is the farmer to be paid? A small farmer grows wheat and delivers it to the millers. The miller will get his profit all right. He will be well looked after by the Government. How is the farmer going to get his money? What is he to be paid? I do not know, nor does anybody else. He will have to wait either for the decision of the civil servants, until they have gone through the file, or wait until the inspectors have assessed the amount of wheat by looking over the ditch.

Is it not time to finish with this sort of nonsense? Was it not by a majority within the Fianna Fáil Cabinet that this decision was taken, and the Taoiseach laughs?

I laugh at the ridiculous suggestion that we were in the pockets of people outside. That is not true and the Deputy knows it is a lie.

I ask the Taoiseach not to be angry. He may laugh, but I am stating to the House that it is a majority decision of the Government, which is under the control of the Dublin area.

It is not true.

I am making no personal accusation against the Taoiseach or the Minister for Agriculture. I am charging the Fianna Fáil Government with selling out to town interests against rural Ireland.

It is not true.

The proof is that for the first time for years there has not been a controlled price for wheat. I will give way to the Taoiseach for a minute if he likes to stand up and say there is a controlled price for wheat.

I will speak in due order.

I am saying that this Government is a "townee" Government, and that is what it is. The proof of it is this ridiculous state of affairs that exists now.

Look at the members and see if they are town members or not.

The Taoiseach should not get angry.

I get angry when I hear untruths.

It is good to know that there is a voice on the other side.

And a General.

On a point of order, the Taoiseach accuses me of telling untruths. If I have levelled anything against anybody and if the Taoiseach proves it untrue, I will withdraw. I am charging the Government with not fixing the price of wheat and further charging that this was a majority Government decision. The reason I say it is a majority decision is that I do not believe that the whole group in the Fianna Fáil Government, some of them being farmers and living on the land and reared on the land for generations, could take an overall unanimous decision on the present fixing of the price of wheat.

I do not think they would be a party to such a ridiculous situation, unless they were overruled by the majority. If the Taoiseach can prove to me that I am wrong, then I accept the fact that Fianna Fáil in toto are responsible for the ridiculous situation that obtains in Ireland to-day. However, if the Government are unanimous in their decision, I know very well that the Fianna Fáil Party are not. I have a certain sympathy with the Fianna Fáil Party, particularly those members of it from tillage constituencies. They were led up the garden path. That was only natural when they heard their leaders shouting everywhere, roaring from hilltops, that we destroyed the wheat industry of Ireland. Is that not thrown back in their teeth when more wheat was grown than ever before in the history of the State? They were proved wrong and that is our simple case. I ask the Minister for Agriculture, when he intervenes, to give the House some indication as to what the price of wheat is.

All I want to say, in conclusion, is that, so far as these six counties are concerned, those seats were won not so much by the votes that Fianna Fáil got but by abstentionist votes, by people who were deluded into the belief that if Fianna Fáil came back into office, they would restore the cut in the price of wheat. It may be fair political tactics to do that sort of thing. I had first-hand proof of it myself in the Limerick by-election. I stayed in Adare, which is a strong wheat-growing centre. I was sent out to canvass and at every house I went to, I was told the same story: "You reduced the price of wheat by 12/6"— or whatever it was we reduced it by —"and if Fianna Fáil get back they will make it 82/6 again."

Those people voted Fianna Fáil and that by-election marked the first step on the road to the return of the Fianna Fáil Party as Government. I told the people that this red light was coming over the hills too quickly. You can fool some of the people some of the time, as President Abraham Lincoln said, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

I think I must accept the very kind invitation issued to me by the previous speaker to speak at an early stage. I enjoyed the bit of warmth which he managed to inject into this discussion because it was trailing off, I thought, very flat and very cold.

The back benchers had run away.

I am always prepared to listen to Deputy Rooney because I know I will hear something sensible.

I will hear the Minister now. You can be sure of that.

Surely the Minister is entitled to be heard and he ought to be allowed to speak.

Deputy Esmonde has made the statement that we always tended to be the Party of wheat, the Party who advocated and campaigned all down the years for wheat. Do you know that I never really thought of it in that sense myself? I never really thought of this Party in that sense myself, and our attitude towards wheat, until that remark was made here; but then I was able to take my mind back for almost 30 years, sitting as I was then, a Deputy on the Opposition Benches in this House, listening to a discussion that took place on that occasion as to the wisdom, or otherwise, of growing wheat, or attempting to grow wheat in this country. I can even remember the line along which the discussion proceeded. I can remember certain figures that were given in the course of that debate.

I can remember very clearly that the motion on which we were deliberating was one proposed by a member of this Party who is still a member of the House and a Minister in this Government. It was proposed in 1928 at a time when the area under wheat was 30,000 acres and when the circumstances were such—the general circumstances, I mean, and I am not blaming those who had responsibility entirely for all that—that those who grew wheat could not even get 30/- a barrel for it. I do say then that quite accidentally, and I am sure unintentionally, but very beneficially from my point of view, Deputy Esmonde has accused this Party of something that I am naturally delighted to accept.

He has accused you of deceiving the wheat-growers of this country.

I will get a Fine Gael membership card for you, if you like.

That is the answer we want.

I should not like to disappoint the Deputy and I will not, before I finish. I am pleased on behalf of this Party to accept those accusations. We have campaigned all down the years in all our Party propaganda for a good sound national purpose. It cost us money and we had to campaign to get the money and we did get it. Is the very fact that we are here, that we won the last election, "an old Party of old men," not proof that the intelligent people outside this House believed in us?

This is a motion of no confidence in the Government.

And you got the verdict in Dublin North Central.

The Taoiseach is laughing.

I am laughing at you.

Surely the Minister is entitled to speak and he ought to be allowed to do so.

I know that the Chair is in charge of order here and I am not in any way trying to usurp the authority vested in the Chair, but it is a source of worry to me, in the sense of getting back on the lines upon which I was speaking. Apart from that, I do not mind. If I get under your skin on the Opposition Benches, it is because what I have to say is something which naturally you do not like to hear. When I hear Deputy Esmonde say that we won a seat in Carlow-Kilkenny, another in Wexford, and a second seat in Wicklow, and when he attributes all that to act that we were pursuing a certain wheat policy, allegedly promising high prices for wheat, I do not take that seriously. I enjoyed that part of it.

The farmers do not enjoy it.

The world outside knows how we picked up these seats.

By the wheat fraud.

You know what the picture was back in 1946-47. I am not going to attempt to deal with it. I was in a different Department afterwards and I saw the sort of situation then. It was not a wheat situation that existed there and it was not a wheat situation that brought this Party of old men back in the way in which Deputy Esmonde has so lucidly described it.

But I did not refer to you as a Party of old men at all.

You should have.

Somebody else did.

It was not the official policy of the Party perhaps, but some Deputy did make the reference.

We are all getting old, anyhow.

Our history in regard to this whole matter is one of which I myself feel proud. I am also proud of the fact that the attitude of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party has changed so much in 30 years. Is it not a wonderful achievement for a Party like this to have brought that situation about? I can remember myself as a young man here, looking across at the Party in office 29 to 30 years ago and hearing that Party say that wheat should not be grown. The soil, the climate, the economics of it were all wrong.

What price was bread then?

The fact is it was one of the cereal crops that had almost dropped out altogether while farmers continued to grow barley, oats and all the rest. "No wheat growing" was the doctrine of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, as it was then. Does anyone think that I feel in the slightest degree hurt or sore because I hear that same Party 30 years afterwards, but now in Opposition, urging the Government not to falter in relation to this important national purpose? We shall come down now to more recent times.

Hear, hear! That will be more like it.

Deputy Esmonde has referred to the fact that this price announcement in regard to wheat was defective in many ways. Deputy Hughes, of course, reminded me of my past—a thing of which I hate to be reminded, especially that part of my past that is dead against me.

That is only natural.

I was Minister for Agriculture here before. It was at a very dangerous time. It was a time of scarcity. One could not just buy wheat anywhere one liked.

You could buy it in the Argentine.

You could not buy wheat at any price you liked. If Deputy Rooney had been in the House then, we would not have been short because we could have ground up certain parts of his make-up and we would have had a perfect offal. As I say, in 1947 it was not possible to buy wheat where one liked or at the price one liked. Neither was it possible to buy coarse grains at any price, unless such grains had been certified by a European organisation as unfit for human consumption. One could not buy fertilisers. Fertilisers were not available. There were a great many obstacles to the pursuit of a successful tillage policy, but it was vital at the time that we should pursue a tillage policy even in spite of wind and weather— and even the wind and the weather were against us because 1946 and 1947 were two of the worst years I remember. But it was vital in those years to ensure that the maximum effort would be achieved in order to tide our people over troubled times and scarce times.

Is it not a strange thing now that there is such an anxiety about the growing of wheat, such an anxiety on the part of the Fine Gael Party, the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, or whatever one likes to call it, about the wheat grower and the tillage farmer? In 1947 the arguments of the Fine Gael Party against the growing of wheat in certain parts of the country ran something like this: If you go in on that land there, if you break up that land, there is a swarth of grass growing there all down the years and, if you break that swarth of grass, it will not re-establish itself for 30 years.

Nonsense. That was never said.

That is exactly what was said to me.

It was never said.

I agree 100 per cent. with the Deputy that it was nonsense.

Opposition Deputies all said it.

Deputy Hughes was not here at all at that time.

Has Deputy Corry recovered from last night?

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Corry ought to listen to his own Minister.

He is a bit concerned about his prospects in East Cork.

(Interruptions.)

I am taking the Cumann na nGaedheal Party up along the line from 1928-1929 right up to 1947 when I, as Minister for Agriculture, was anxious to get the maximum production despite the non-availability of phosphates, nitrogen and all the rest of it. We just had to tackle the problem. We had to knuckle down to the problem ourselves in order to ensure that our people would be supplied with the vital commodities necessary to sustain life. With what opposition did we find ourselves faced: "No. Do not break up that field. Do not go into the Golden Vale. Do not go into such and such a place"? Mark you, these were the technicians at the time. I do not say that that particular approach and that type of opposition emanated entirely from members of this House who were also members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. But it was the Cumann na nGaedheal mentality. I used have occasion at that time to look at numbers of files dealing with those who had applied for exemptions. Some of them were public men. I was ashamed to think that they were so unappreciative of the situation that existed around us. I was ashamed that public men should fail to such an extent at a time like that to set the proper example to our people. I used to open up those files and I would see one man perhaps pleading that he had just bought a brood mare. Another man pleaded he was supplying milk to a town and another man pleaded something else. When I hear the Cumann na nGaedheal Party—I like to call them by the name I first knew them. I forget all the names they were known by since. I am a realist——

You like to forget the circumstances in which Fine Gael was formed as a Party.

I could never forget them. It is a great source of satisfaction to me to have been one of those who kept you in your places, no matter how you tried to play-act.

If you could spread your satisfaction to some of the farmers, it would be very good.

I will come to that, too. I will make a fairly good job of it.

That is what we are waiting for.

Do not worry too much about the performance I will give.

The Taoiseach is not laughing now.

It would not be wise for you to worry about it.

On a point of order, Sir, you are complaining you have reason to think you have a difficult job when there are interruptions, but if a Minister insists on misnaming a Party in this House and insists on doing so for reasons connected with present day difficulties, he must expect interruptions.

Have a sense of humour.

It is not easy to have a sense of humour in an Irish Parliament set up to look after the interests of the people when we are dealing with the problem of the difficulties we are discussing to-day.

It is not easy to have a sense of humour, unless it is born with you.

I complained years ago that I was not born with a sense of humour. Perhaps the Minister would keep to the point.

Where was I?

You were trying to forget you were addressing the Fine Gael Party.

You were thinking of the time when you had "the Republican Party" in brackets.

Why should we help you?

There is a motion before the House. I suggest we discuss that.

These were the proposals in 1947. To be truthful, it did not matter so much to me whether it. was then the Cumann na nGaedheal Party or the Fine Gael Party. In 1947 they were throwing spanners in the works in spite of the national difficulties which confronted the Government of the day and me as Minister for Agriculture. I hope that is not as hard as the way in which I put it originally.

Now we begin to become respectable. The Fine Gael Party are always referring to me as the Minister of the big stick. I enjoy that. I regard it as a tremendous compliment. In April of 1947 I was invited into this House to give an account of the progress that had been made up to that time in the matter of tillage. Not one single acre of land was broken in the middle of April of that year. The frost and snow were on the ground and it was impossible to do anything. I agreed that the yields were low. As a result of whatever stick I did use in that year— and I killed nobody—the achievement in the course of a few short weeks was a wonderful one. Therefore, every time you talk of me in that sense, whether you call yourselves the Fine Gael or whatever Party you like to call yourselves, I laugh and say: "I would not be known at all, a poor fellow like me way back from the lowlands would never be known at all, if it were not for the magnificent way in which this Fine Gael Party has been advertising me."

Is there a psychiatrist in the House?

How did he get around it? I will come on to it a little later still. I want to say this to Deputy Esmonde, who has spoken to me as to the inadvisability and indefensibility of this scheme as announced in connection with the 1958 crop and the price at which it will be purchased. I am not saying the Deputy has done so intentionally, but he has made a tremendous mistake in regard to that matter and the Deputies who move this motion and suggest that I adopt this method of dealing with the situation in regard to wheat anticipated by everybody, are making the mistake of their lives.

I was not very long in the Department of Agriculture when this matter had to be dealt with. I found quite a lot of things there that, in one way or another, were hanging over for a very long time, indeed back into 1956. I met the people concerned about the wheat situation, the National Farmers' Association. I discussed several proposals with them. I have no objection to your having all the motions you like and making all the charges you like. You need not document them, just as they have not been documented to-day. You can say it was said without producing any proof. I make a free gift of all that to you. Those people who discussed the question of wheat with me prior to the Government announcement were people who appreciated that there was a problem to be met.

Whatever time we devoted to a discussion of that question was devoted to finding the most suitable ways and means of disposing of that problem. I was not wedded to any particular solution. Is it not clear then that I was not wedded to the solution that was finally decided upon either? If I am engaged in discussions with people, whether they are members of this House or otherwise, I would not think it a good thing for Ministers just to seize upon that fact, to make use of the points of view expressed in the course of any discussions of that nature in order to build up a defence for oneself. I say to those people with whom I discussed that and other matters that, whether the solution decided upon was the one that appealed to them more than another or whether it was not the solution I, as Minister for Agriculture, ultimately recommended to the Government of which I am a member and of which that Government ultimately approved, then I make myself responsible for it and while I am here, as Minister for Agriculture, I will not seek shelter from any of the decisions similarly arrived at.

I think that might clear the air. If it were necessary, I could go much further and, perhaps, it would not be any harm if I said that that solution did not appeal to me personally because I am not made of the kind of metal of which you accuse me at all. Whatever faults I may have, I hope I am a clear headed Northerner and I am proud of it.

Let me come then to the situation as I found it and let me give the House an outline of how that situation came to build itself up as it is and as it was up to a few weeks ago. On the 1st September, 1956, there was a wheat carry-over of between 50,000 and 55,000 tons of dried wheat. That quantity would be in excess of what normally would be required by about 20,000 tons. We all hope at times that things will happen and they do not happen and because we hope for things to happen which do not happen we can hardly be blamed for that so long as we have the right kind of hope.

It was officially hoped on the 1st September, 1956, that by the 1st September, 1957, the situation would have altered and that the excess would have been disposed of one way or another. The 1956-57 wheat crop opens up at this time. The year 1956 was a bad harvest year. The Opposition are trying to prove something they cannot prove. I do not object to that but I think it is unwise. I am only tendering this advice because it is bad political tactics if you want to make any progress. For example, I never heard one of you describe 1947—it was a year in which I was Minister for Agriculture—as being a bad year. In fact, you always seized upon that year. It was the most fortunate year for you from the point of view of statistics to prove that you had done a whole lot of things you did not do any more than myself.

Let the Minister come back to the figures.

I will deal with the figures. Deputy O'Higgins is a trained lawyer who operates in the courts where there is a judge. I was only in the courts a few times. My mind is operating, too.

The Minister was interrupting himself.

As long as I am doing it myself I can always forgive myself. I can forgive myself for almost anything.

It is a bit tedious though. The Minister was about to give the figures for September, 1957.

You will confuse me if you are not careful.

We would not confuse the Minister.

I gave the House particulars in regard to September, 1956, and I dealt with the bad harvest year. I admit that was a bad year. It was a tremendously difficult year for a Government in relation to wheat, for millers, for growers and for those who were trying to save the wheat as a crop. As a result, instead of the hope to which I referred, the disposal of the surplus carried in from 1956, being realised, the 1956 crop was a bad one.

It was a high enough yield but the quality was poor. Approximately 309,000 tons of dried wheat came off that crop and was offered to and purchased by the millers. Here is the point to remember. The millers agreed to purchase only that wheat in that fashion and at that price having got a guarantee from the then Government that because of the inferior quality they would be given a fair share of freedom in the sort of grist they would use because, as businessmen, they were anxious to keep the standard of the flour as high as possible. For part of that year, the grist, although it was 75/25 on foot of that undertaking given to the millers, had to be reduced for a period of the year to a 50/50 basis. Instead of the hope of 1956 being realised in 1957, as the child said, the situation in fact "got worser and worser" and the carry-over from 1957 became not the 50,000 tons of 1956 but actually 75,000 tons of dried wheat.

From a bad harvest!

In 1957, there were delivered to the millers from the crop of wheat grown by the farmers 370,000 tons of dried wheat, and if you add 370,000 tons from the 1957 crop to the carry-over of 75,000 tons, you will get 445,000 tons of dried wheat as a matter for me to deal with, in consultation with all the people whom I consulted. That is the net problem we had to face.

The home requirements out of that 445,000 tons, the requirements for flour and bread and all the rest on the existing basis of the grist, were 300,000 tons, leaving a balance of 145,000 tons from which you can deduct a normal carry-over that is brought along by the millers at this time of year of about 50,000 tons. If you subtract 50,000 tons from 145,000 tons, you get the figure of 95,000 tons of dried wheat and it is in regard to those 95,000 tons of dried wheat that I have to make a decision.

It will cost the taxpayers of this country about £1,250,000 to dispose of those 95,000 tons of dried wheat and this I hope will be done before 1st September, in order to make sure that the buyers and the millers and the lofts will be available for the 1958 crop.

As I have already said, members of the Opposition Party are free to table all the motions they wish and they are free to make unsubstantiated charges of almost any kind, so long as the Chair permits—and the Chair would scarcely be interested in a matter like this. But it is we in the Government at this moment who have the responsibility of facing up to that situation that has developed from 1956. Let me say this: while that amount of 95,000 tons of dried wheat is on hand, to be disposed of now, do not think we have been allowing that to accumulate all the time without taking any action since we came into office. In fact, we have already sold—when we were only about one month in office—12,000 tons of dried wheat to the compound millers. By a decision of the Government reached on 18th April, 1957, we sold 12,000 tons of that surplus wheat for feeding purposes—it was roughly ground at the time—at a price of £27 a ton, although it cost the taxpayer about £38 per ton at the time. We were not lying back and allowing this thing to accumulate without tackling it in an energetic way.

We had discussions with all these interests—I mean the representatives of the farmers—and, as I already told the House, I do not want to harp on this fact because I shall have to meet these bodies again and I do not want to disimprove relations between myself and those whom I shall have to meet in regard to business matters, but there was a farmers' organisation here in 1954-55 when there was a straight cut in wheat prices. Apart from the merits of that decision, let us not consider whether or not it was a wise decision, but there was a farmers' organisation in this country when the decision was made and there were not too many protests from the National Farmers' Organisation at that time.

About that cut in 1954?

Glory be to God, but the Minister has a very bad memory.

Deputies will speak after me and if they can produce evidence, as I am inviting them to do, in regard to Fianna Fáil and its literature, I invite them to be specific and give me an official comment from the executive of the National Farmers' Organisation at the time the wheat price was reduced by my predecessor.

Would the Minister accept a statement from the Fianna Fáil Party with regard to the protests?

I did not get any statement yet and I am not asking the Deputy to interrupt me at all. In fact, I shall not give way; I want to make my own speech in my own way and I am going to do it.

The 95,000 tons have to be disposed of, but before that is done, we had to get a scheme for 1958. We had to reach some conclusion as to what we were aiming at for 1958. It is an amazing thing for me to find now, in 1958, after all these years and after the history of the political Parties and their approach to this matter to which I have briefly referred, that not only will they stand in with us in trying to support a national crop to the extent that we always said it should be supported, but they actually want us to allow this thing to go at a pace that will result in our having to sell wheat on the export market at a loss of £20 per ton.

I do not know how often policies change with some Parties, but it never was the policy of this Party to aim at reaching a situation here where not only would we produce our own requirements in wheat but would actually participate in an export market. We had then, as I say, to try, as a result of discussions first with the people who are concerned and then discussions with my colleagues in the Government, to arrive at what was to be regarded as the scheme for 1958. That has been arrived at and I repeat, and I hope not to go back on it again, I was not in any way fascinated by that and those who took part in discussions with me on this matter will not deny that I was not fascinated. In any case, it was a fair attempt to give to those who would be asked to produce what we regarded as the minimum requirement of wheat an assurance that they would get a fixed price for a stated amount and, if they were to produce in excess of that stated amount, those who produce wheat, and not the taxpayer, would have to dispose of that surplus at whatever price they could get for it.

Now I come to the actual disposal of this quantity of wheat. Having all that ground cleared, we had to look around for ways and means and avenues by which we could sell 95,000 tons of dried wheat. I then met the compound millers, had discussions with them, and their calculation and ours was that they could probably use about 40,000 tons of the 95,000 tons for their compounds. We determined the price at which that would be sold to them and here is where the problem comes in and here is where—and I should like Deputy Corry and others who——

Do not agree with you.

It does not matter. I do not want people to agree. It is monotonous when everybody agrees with you. I do not like that at all. We then had to say: "What will we charge the compound millers for the 40,000 tons surplus wheat?" I was naturally anxious that it would not be sold at a price that would increase the price of the compound to those who use the compound for feeding pigs, poultry, calves and all the rest. Even if I did not have to have these considerations at the back of my mind, I would have to consider that there was a floor price announced for barley the previous year of £2 a barrel, and that floor price had been made effective because Grain Importers, which is a semi-State organisation, had been asked to go into the market in the harvest time and buy a quantity of barley, thereby conveying to all the private interests in that market that that was to be the price at which they would purchase that green barley. Not only did they convey that message by their act of purchasing 22,000 tons of that green barley, but they then pulled out and said to these commercial people: "If you buy the rest of the barley at at least that price, whatever amount of it is over, we will guarantee that we will not use the amount we have at any time to depress the price on you or to deprive you at any time of what is regarded as a normal and fair profit, having regard to storage, drying and all the rest".

In trying to fix the price at which this surplus wheat would be made available to compounders, I was tied up with this barley guarantee. I could not bring the wheat price below that and, therefore, I was obliged to fix the price of £26 per ton. Our best estimate was that 40,000 tons of the 95,000 tons would be absorbed through that channel. The next thing was that the flour millers came in. They had been complaining for a long time that the consumption of flour had gone down and was going down. Of course, Deputy Rooney knows how that happened. He knows the answer to any problem one has in regard to these matters. I am not intimate with him. If I were, I would know everything. He has at the tip of his fingers and the tip of his tongue the solution for every problem and the answer to every question.

The truth is bitter.

The millers arrived and said that the quality of the flour has gone down, that the taste for flour is declining and that while this is a tendency all the world over, it seems to have taken root here to a greater extent than in other parts. I did not believe that because I knew that when the subsidy was being paid on flour, there was a good deal of flour being used for pig feeding and animal feeding in general, and when the subsidy was removed from flour, it did not remain a profitable business to use flour in that fashion for animal feeding. So long as the millers were disposing of the flour, irrespective of the purpose for which it was used, the flour was being sold and that is what concerned them most and, when the subsidy went, the use of flour for feeding cattle, pigs and poultry was no longer attractive and the consumption went down. It went down more for that reason, I would say, than as a result of a change in public taste.

The millers came to me and said: "You have 95,000 tons of that wheat. You are selling this to the compound millers at £26 a ton and if you have anything over and above, you will have to export; you will have to sell it at less than £20 a ton. As far as we are concerned, we would like to improve the quality of our flour and would like to reduce the extraction rate. If you give us to the end of the year a quantity of that wheat at that price, we will gladly take it". It was, in fact, an ideal arrangement for us inasmuch as we had still 55,000 tons to dispose of and would get at least the home feeding price for about 15,000 to 20,000 tons more of it, which would mean 60,000, leaving a balance of 35,000 tons.

That proposal of the millers for a quantity of that surplus wheat at that price had an added attraction for me. The compound millers, in order to make a suitable compound, have to have bran and pollard. We had not at the time enough bran and pollard to enable them to provide the mixture they required and to keep the price at the level they wanted, because, again, the level at which the compound, is available has a great deal to do with the matter. They said to me: "If you are going to ask us to buy this wheat for compound purposes, you will have to give us an additional licence for bran and pollard." I did not like to do it or even to contemplate it. However, the proposal of the flour millers relieved me of the need to give it too much thought, because, as a result of the reduced extraction rate from 80 to 72, the quantity and the quality of the bran and pollard that was to be available from our own millers was increased and improved.

I have now reached, by way of the disposal of that surplus, the 60,000 tons. There are still 35,000 tons to be disposed of and that must be disposed of before 1st September or between 1st and 30th September. I can find no way of disposing of it, except at world prices. And according to my information, to dispose of it at world prices means that it will lose us—the taxpayer, the community, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and everybody else— about £18 to £20 a ton. That is a correct picture of the wheat situation.

Deputy Esmonde twitted me on the barley situation. One of the reasons why I recommended to the Government that a floor price should be fixed was this single net fact—and I should like farmers, grain growers, the National Farmers' Association, Macra na Feirme, and everybody who wants to hear it, to know this—that I was afraid that, if I did not announce some floor price for barley, it might encourage potential barley-growers to sow down land in wheat, even if there was, as a result of the schemes announced for wheat, a danger that the price at which they would sell that wheat would be cut severely. I do not believe in the fixation of a floor price for barley, nor do I believe in the fixation of a floor price for oats. They are both a feeding crop; they are both the raw materials of other industries. In the case of oats, two Governments in my time tried to fix the price of oats. We tried it; it failed. I do not want to pretend I have all the knowledge and all the wisdom, but I knew in advance of the fixation of that price that it would fail.

Another Government fixed the price in 1948 when the then Minister for Agriculture was away in America. When he came home, he found the price of oats fixed. That, too, was a failure. I found the floor price for barley fixed when I came into office. I agreed to fixing a price because the wheat situation was as it was and because I did not want to tempt additional people to grow wheat, fearing it would depress the price unduly. It has been said that I fixed it at an unduly low level. It has been said, in regard to moisture content, that I was unfair inasmuch as I punished those with a moisture content over 20 and would not reward those with a moisture content of less than 20. The reason is that that was how it was done on a previous occasion. I did not want to alter it now because, by altering it, I would be conveying to the public that I believed in the fixing of a feeding barley price— and I do not.

What does it mean? It means—and I am not saying this in a critical way against my predecessor; I am saying what is true—that when my predecessor first casually announced, I do not know where, a fixed price for feeding barley, he knew the problems very well. Here was the guarantee he gave: "Grow all the feeding barley you can—and I approve of it—and, if you have any on hands that you cannot dispose of by 1st May or 1st June, I will take it from you at a certain price."

That was his approach. That would not last very long because when the producers of barley would get you that far, they would say: "Where is the use of fixing a barley price operative the following June, when all the barley is disposed of? If you are fixing a price, why not come in at the time when those who grow barley as a cash crop will be able to get some advantage from that fixed price? Why do you name a fixed price and then allow the private purchasers of barley to buy on a glutted market at whatever price they like and then, at the end of the season, to sell it when it is scarce and make an unjustifiable profit?" Then as a result, you come back from the guarantee originally given to the guarantee I found there—a floor guarantee of £2 for green barley in the harvest time.

Deputy Esmonde talked about officials and the undesirability of civil servants and of State and semi-State organisations. I dislike them intensely; I dislike semi-State organisations at least as much as any member of this House. However, when you fix the price of barley, you must get, somebody to buy barley at that price or, if you do not, the growers will say: "You are fixing the price but there was a big market in such and such a place and it was being offered wholesale. We cannot get that fixed price. Why do you not come in with Grain Importers and buy a quantity of this barley and make the people pay the fixed price?" That is what happened on previous occasions and what will happen any Government or any Minister who does this.

Grain Importers will come along, buy the barley at a fixed price, hire the lofts from merchants and other people in Waterford, Cork and other parts of the country, and they will be charged at the highest rate. They will have the barley dried down to 17 or 16 or whatever it is; they will be charged for the general supervision, storage and management and they will hold on until the following spring. They will be charged interest on the money they use for the purchase of it. At the end of the season, when they proceed to dispose of it, they will have to send it by rail or otherwise to the end of the country—maybe from Waterford or Cork down as far as Deputy Mooney's constituency, to Patton's of Monaghan or to somebody in Ballybay. The cost of the transport will be from 30/- to £2 a ton, in addition to all the other charges that have grown up. How am I to tell Deputy Corry or any other Deputy interested in this matter that, while the barley was bought in the green state at £2 a barrel, costing £20 per ton, the price that barley now stands Grain Importers, when all those costs are added up, is such that if they were to sell it so as to relieve them and relieve the taxpayer of all charges on it, they could only sell it at £29 5s. 0d. a ton?

As I say, disliking very intensely fixation of coarse grain prices in a country like this, where we have so many small farmers, so many feeders who depend for a living on the purchase of coarse grain for feeding to animals, I dislike this whole business of tinkering with barley prices. What has it resulted in, anyhow? I have here before me the figures showing that, while the barley acreage has increased steadily, the acreage under oats has declined. I have a problem on my hands of disposing of all these thousands of tons of dried wheat and that is complicated by the availability of a certain amount of high priced barley that I had on my doorstep before I was two days in the Department of Agriculture. I had the millers, I had the people who used to make the oatenmeal that was ultimately converted into what was called in the country the "stirabout" that most people used; they could not get enough oats, nor could the horse breeding industry secure enough oats in this country, as a result of our meddling and tinkering with this fixation of barley prices. They could not get enough and in spite of my dilemma that there was that surplus, I had requests for licences to import 1,000 or 2,000 tons of oats.

I being a countryman, knowing what oatenmeal means to the countryman and knowing that there are still people using oatenmeal and wishing that that desirable practice should continue, had to give a licence for the importation of oats for conversion into oatenmeal for farmers.

At what price?

I could not tell the Deputy now. About £17.

£20 a ton.

Does it not all add up to this, that the farmers and grain growers last year produced 275,000 tons of barley, half of that barley was never exposed on the market for sale but was used by people who fed it back to the live stock? They do not worry about any Government's guaranteed price for this or that; they simply grow barley because they know it is a useful crop and they grow it for their own purposes. If I am to be invited as Minister for Agriculture to advise the Government at any time to upset the entire equilibrium, as it has been upset, by intervening to give a floor price for that other half of the 275,000 tons of barley and to build up a State organisation with State machinery, the hire of lofts at great expense— with people saying: "It is the State that is behind this, charge them plenty"—that is not business. I do not want that, if it can be avoided. There are times when one cannot avoid doing it, but it should be avoided, to my mind, whenever possible. That is my approach and my attitude.

We have become very well-behaved for a long time and that is the way it ought to be, with nobody in any way troublesome. You are having a very easy time, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I am delighted. I have listened during the course of this discussion to all these charges being made about Fianna Fáil having led the public down the alley. Is it not an extraordinary thing that, 12 months after we came back into office, Fine Gael are apparently so forgetful of themselves and they would like the public outside to be so forgetful as to what the state of their own mind was only 12 months ago——

78/6 a barrel.

Do those opposite remember when they were in here sulking and disappointed, their minds all broken up and some of the young heroes and warriors having fallen by the wayside, some of the young economists they boasted about having, who were going to put the Party and the country on the map—the specialists? They came back here and they became dejected enough.

Has this any relevance to the motion?

He is trying to help you to have a peaceful life, Sir.

I think I shall be able to show that it is very relevant to the course the debate has taken as a result of the two speeches made prior to mine. What was the gist of the speeches made when the proposal was before the House for the appointment of a Taoiseach? What was the gist of the speeches made by the members of the former Government when the Taoiseach, as appointed, nominated his Cabinet? I do not like to trouble anybody with these things, as I know some public men, when they get to their feet are liable to say a lot of things. I just glanced at one of these points. The whole set-up has been "Fianna Fáil promised this." I hate that word—it is an untidy kind of word.

People outside get fed up hearing about what Fine Gael said and what Fianna Fáil said. It is a word I scarcely ever use in the course of a speech, because the people outside are far more intelligent than some people think. They remember the state of things that existed in 1957, when we came into office. They remember why those opposite went out and why they had to go out. Here is a statement made by Deputy Norton as reported in Volume 161, column 970, of the Official Debates:—

"The mood of the Fianna Fáil Party then was that they could do the job better and should be put back into office."

He continued:—

"Just give us the blank cheque; sign your name on it and we will fill it in for you."

Now I ask Fine Gael Deputies, 12 months after the election, if it was a blank cheque we got. It was, and it was a blank cheque we insisted upon getting because we did not know the extent to which the situation had deteriorated. These are the facts.

They are not facts.

They are facts and they are appreciated by the people outside. Deputy Norton was right, because the situation demanded that a Party such as ours should say that the situation was as it was, that there was panic among the people.

Why did you not say it?

We said it from the housetops and we found that it was so when we came into office. We found the picture to be exactly what we suspected. We found there was realism in the action of the then Government in getting out because they could not stay in. Now they think the people will forget the situation that existed 12 months ago, because they come back like a pack of parrots and repeat the promises they say Fianna Fáil made. The fact is that the country gave us the blank cheque of which Deputy Norton spoke and of which other members of the Opposition, parrot like, spoke in many places.

We shall not abuse that blank cheque. We have always behaved as a responsible Party, in or out of Government. We have always had at heart the interests of the wheat-growers and the other producers and of people who do not own land or work on it. That is our record—the record of our Party. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We do not mind these criticisms that are levelled at us. We know they are there to criticise us because they were a failure themselves and they have only become converted, now that it is too late and when nobody in the country will believe in the conversion.

We have listened to the Minister for some considerable time. Anyone who listened carefully to what he said must be convinced that at least in this House Deputy Smith has a great opinion of the present Minister for Agriculture. His speech was largely a defence of his previous conduct as Minister for Agriculture. At one time I feared that he might be so carried away in praise of himself that he would forget completely to speak about this motion. He told us of the great things he did in 1947 in relation to wheat and what a great man he was. He forgot, of course, to note that when the Fianna Fáil Government last came into office, they did not put him back as Minister for Agriculture.

I was terribly disappointed.

The country was not.

When the Fianna Fáil Government came in this time they found that in their entire Parliamentary Party there was not a man fit to be Minister for Agriculture. But the present Minister is back now, in default, and he has come back with his admiration of himself in no way minimised. Let us have regard to the case he has made here to-day, because I never had the experience before of a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture so clearly justifying the actions and the policy of his predecessor.

What is the gist of what the Minister said? His defence for his Government's decision in relation to wheat is that he complains that there is now, and was last year and the year before, a surplus of wheat in the country. Accordingly, he said that that surplus must be sold off for feeding stuff and that the farmers must be prevented, discouraged from growing wheat. I wonder is that a defence and a case prepared merely for the purpose of this motion? I want Deputy Nicholas Egan, Deputy Martin Corry, Deputy Medlar, Deputy Moher, to listen to this very carefully, because they were the shock troops of Fianna Fáil 12 months ago.

This time 12 months each of these gentlemen was getting hoarse talking about the terrible injustice done to wheat farmers by the inter-Party Government. They are told now by the Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture that the result of Deputy Dillon's policy was to produce in this country a superabundance of wheat. They are told that as a result of the policy encouraged and put into operation by Deputy Dillon too much wheat was sown and that accordingly there is a surplus. Let us compare that statement now with the case made by Fianna Fáil when they were in Opposition, because this motion is designed to deal with that case.

Let us compare what the Minister now says with the dreary campaign that was being carried on in this country, starting in 1954, and only ending at the last general election. There was a wheat motion introduced in this House at the last general election. There was a wheat motion introduced in this House on the 2nd December, 1954, by eight Fianna Fáil Deputies. It was a motion condemning the then Government's decision to reduce the price of wheat from 82/6 to 70/- per barrel. In the course of that debate—I am not going to refer to many of the things said, but I shall take one quotation which illustrates the point I want to make—Deputy Aiken, now Minister for External Affairs, said, and he was supported by other Deputies in his Party:—

"My belief is that instead of getting the food requirements of our people in addition to our seed requirements, this sudden, disastrous cut in wheat prices is going to drive the wheat away downwards. I do not know how far. The Lord knows how far."

That remark was repeated by the present Minister for Lands and by Deputy Nicholas Egan and by every other Fianna Fáil Deputy participating in that debate. Their complaint was that because the price of wheat was reduced by 12/6 a barrel our farmers would go out of wheat growing. The proposer of the motion even went so far as to say that the very security of the nation was endangered.

That was 1954. In the intervening years the wheat wave continued throughout the country. Every available opportunity was seized upon by Fianna Fáil speakers to suggest that the reduction in the price of wheat was cruel and unjust and that it was driving people out of wheat growing. The Taoiseach will remember that in the newspaper of which he is the controlling director there was a banner headline after the wheat cut: "£2,000,000 taken from the farmers of this country." There was the whole Fianna Fáil campaign designed to get not wheat farmers, because they knew what they were doing, but people living in the towns and cities to believe that national security was endangered, that wheat growing was disappearing under the policy of Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture.

We know now that that was so much ballyhoo and nonsense. We know now that that campaign was sheer political drivel because when all the noise is over the result is, on the figures the Minister gave us to-day, that on the 1st September, 1956, the year after the price of wheat was cut, there was a carry-over of 55,000 tons of wheat representing an excess of 20,000 tons, that, in the following year, despite the fact that 1956 was a bad year with a bad harvest, the carry-over was 75,000 tons of dried wheat and that, accordingly, in relation to this year there is a further carry-over of 95,000 tons.

That is point No. 1. The Fianna Fáil charge made against us on these figures is proven to have been unjustified. The policy that Deputy Dillon embarked upon did not reduce wheat growing. That policy, in fact, succeeded in maintaining our national requirements in wheat and further, and more important, in encouraging our farmers into growing coarse grains. It was a balanced tillage policy and that is proven by the Minister to-day to have been the fact. Therefore, so far as policy and outlook is concerned we can say from this side of the House that it is a notable fact that the commendation of Deputy Dillon's policy comes from a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture.

The Minister complained to-day that he had this problem of surplus wheat which had to be disposed of and that a month after the present Government came into office they had actually sold 20,000 tons of surplus wheat for compounding. I wonder do Deputies remember that Deputy Corry, who has fled the House, when the change of Government took place was so excited with regard to the Fianna Fáil campaign in relation to wheat that he had the temerity six days after the change of Government to ask the caretaker Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for External Affairs, what the new Government proposed to do in relation to increasing the price of wheat. The then Minister for Agriculture, the present Minister for External Affairs, said at column 44, Volume 161, of the Official Debates of the 26th March, 1957:—

"No alteration of the price of wheat in these last days of March could appreciably affect the acreage of wheat this year.

I can, however, assure Deputy Corry that the necessity for securing an adequate acreage of wheat is fully realised by the Government, and that an announcement regarding wheat prices will be made in good time to enable farmers to prepare for the autumn sowing season."

The autumn sowing season is gone and what the Minister for External Affairs was referring to was the necessity this year further to increase the acreage under wheat. It is implicit in that parliamentary reply that he and his colleagues under the Taoiseach were satisfied that there was an inadequate acreage under wheat and that something had to be done to increase it. Did ever fraud find itself out in such a way? The present Government were so consumed with their own propaganda that, sitting in office, they proceeded to indicate that farmers could expect this autumn the necessary inducement to provide an adequate acreage of wheat.

Nevertheless, the Minister for Agriculture tells us to-day that at that time the Government was up to its neck in wheat, that it had accumulated a surplus of some 75,000 tons and that they were busily trying to sell off that surplus for feeding stuff. Who is playing straight with the people of this country? Who is telling the truth? What did the Minister for External Affairs mean on the 26th March by suggesting in his reply that he was going to see that there was an adequate acreage under wheat this year when in fact the problem facing the Government was that there was a surplus of wheat? I think it is not unreasonable for us to say that there has been appalling duplicity on the part of the Government Party in relation to this whole business.

I said that the purpose of this motion was not to debate the tillage policies of the present Government and Deputy Dillon because that has gone beyond the realm of debate. It is now agreed by the present Minister for Agriculture that Deputy Dillon's policy was the sound policy. The purpose of this motion is to draw the attention of this House and the country to the pledges given by the present Government in relation to wheat when they were seeking electoral support. This motion asks this Dáil to condemn the Government—

"for their repudiation of the specific undertaking given to wheat growers during the election campaign, as set out in their official election literature, that only an immediate Government decision to restore the 1954 price of 82/6 per barrel could save Irish wheat-growing from disaster."

I propose, as briefly as possible, in relation to this motion, to demonstrate to the satisfaction, perhaps not to the pleasure, of all Deputies that such pledges were given. There is, or was, a monthly circulation under the style and title of An Gléas and it used to be the practice and habit, when I and my colleagues were in Government, to send us a complimentary copy each month. I am very glad that was done because I have now a full file of all the productions. It calls itself the official gazette or magazine of Fianna Fáil. What has An Gléas to say in regard to the price of wheat?

By the way, I think that perhaps I am being unkind because An Gléas, I understand, has recently died and I do not want to say anything unkind about the departed. Perhaps, however, the good that has been done lives after it and certainly in this instance litera scripta manet. In the January, 1956, issue of An Gléas here is what was said —representing, I must emphasise, the official Party attitude. I know the Irish Press is not official; it is just a bystander. Here is what the official Party gazette had to say about wheat:

"A few days ago the Taoiseach received a deputation from the National Farmers' Association, which put the case for restoring the price of wheat to the 1954 level. From every point of view it is to be hoped that the Government will overrule Mr. Dillon and accept the unanswerable case which has been made for a restoration of the Fianna Fáil price."

It goes on:—

"It is now recognised by all that the slashing of the wheat price was a grave error of judgment by the Government. The results of this error will become still more serious should there be a further fall this year in the acreage under wheat. Only an immediate Government decision to restore the 1954 price can save Irish wheat-growing from disaster."

There is the official Party attitude defined and declared in their own pet monthly circulation and sent to Deputy Dillon and other members of the Government. In March, 1956, An Gléas goes on to say:

"In 1954 the Coalition cut the price of wheat by 12/6 a barrel, and so brought about a reduction in wheat acreage of 120,000.

Fianna Fáil warned Mr. Dillon of the dangers of this policy, and pointed out the effect it would have in swelling our adverse balance of payments. The warning was ignored.

As a result of the new levies, the Government hopes to cut our imports by £7,000,000, yet the increase in the imports of wheat and maize last year came to more than that figure.

The cutting of the wheat price saved the Exchequer the sum of about £1,000,000 a year—though Mr. Sweetman did not use this saving to reduce taxation. Now through the import levies, the public are to pay an extra £4,000,000 a year in taxation.

Someone should give Mr. Dillon a lesson in elementary economics."

There is the policy of our opponents as printed in their "pep" magazine, sent out to all canvassers, candidates and campaigners throughout the country. There is the Party line to be used by the Party when it was seeking electorate support. I am sorry that neither Deputy Nicholas Egan nor Deputy Kieran Egan is in the House, but we know that in the by-election in Laois-Offaly—a good wheat growing constituency—crocodile tears were shed for the poor wheat growers of the Midlands. In April, 1956, they were told by every Fianna Fáil speaker who could string two words together that the cut in the price of wheat was a terrible thing and that it could be restored only by a Fianna Fáil Government.

Later on Deputy Medlar was sent by Carlow-Kilkenny with sheafs of wheat sticking out of his pocket in order to demonstrate that Deputy Medlar and Fianna Fáil would increase the price of wheat. I remember—I think it was this day last year, or just 12 months ago—listening with interest to the present Minister for Finance as he spoke over the radio to the people of this country as they sat by their firesides one cold February night. Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, had a lot to say about agriculture. He had a lot to say about farming, about prices and about costs. In particular he had a great deal to say about wheat. Deputy Dr. Ryan, on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, on the 25th February last year, said that the cut in the price of wheat made by the inter-Party Government was cruel and unjust. He went on to say that under a Fianna Fáil Government there would be a remunerative price fixed for crops such as wheat.

I challenge any Deputy in the Fianna Fáil Party to explain that what was intended by that radio broadcast was anything except to suggest that the cruel and unjust cut would be remedied by a Fianna Fáil Government and that the remunerative price for crops such as wheat would be an increased price. I challenge the Minister for Lands, if he intends to speak, or any other Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party, to explain what other meaning could be gleaned from that radio broadcast which stated that the cut in the price of wheat was "cruel and unjust" and that a Fianna Fáil Government would see that a remunerative price would be fixed for crops such as wheat.

The people, a few days later, to be precise on Ash Wednesday of last year, went into penance because they elected a Fianna Fáil Government, and that Government, having got into office, we charge, have disregarded the pledges which they made. We charge them here, in the interests of public decency, that their actions should be condemned by Dáil Éireann. It is not right and it is not honest that public men at election time should enter into undertakings, and make commitments, which they have no intention of honouring.

It is not right that the Fianna Fáil Party should have allowed Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, to speak over Radio Éireann and promise the wheat farmers of this country that the "cruel and unjust" cut would be restored, and that a remunerative price would be given to them by a Fianna Fáil Government. When the Government found they could not honour that pledge, it was the Taoiseach's duty to tender the resignation of the Government to Dáil Éireann. What has happened now is that the Government feels, with the support of Deputy Medlar, of Deputy Egan, of Deputy Corry and of all the other people who used to talk about wheat in this House, securely pledged, the Government can continue in existence as long as the law will permit. They apparently feel that they can shrug off as so many awkward encumbrances, these speeches, pledges and commitments which they gave so clearly this time 12 months ago.

It is a depressing thing that we are now discussing: a decision by a Fianna Fáil Government, taken in direct conflict with its terms of reference in Government, taken in direct opposition to the pledges made, a decision which is intended to ensure a fall in wheat production in this country. It may be said, and I am quite certain that some Fianna Fáil Deputies would like to have the courage to interrupt me and ask: "What would you do if you were faced with a surplus of wheat?" That would be a fair question. We were faced with such a surplus in 1954 and the country knows what we did, what we in Fine Gael particularly did. We faced up to our responsibilities. We said: "We are fixing a price of 70/- per barrel for wheat and any farmer who desires to grow wheat is guaranteed that price for the crop he sows— there will be no back-peddling, no heel-tapping, no dishonesty—there is our price and if you do not like it, you can lump it."

That is what we did in 1954. I dare say, if we had the responsibility, that is what we would do again. What do these people do? They are afraid to declare a price, to come out into the open and declare a policy. They introduce, instead of guaranteed prices, a jumble of words intended to cod the farmers. This jumble of words will have the effect that next July, when the crop is in the ground, a number of officials of both sides will come together to estimate yields, estimate surpluses, and estimate what will be got in an autumn market for surplus wheat. The result will be that next July the wheat price will be declared and, of course, we know the cut will be from 6/- upwards. I suggest to the Government that that is a coward's way out. That is the action of a timorous Government, afraid to face up to its responsibilities. It is bad enough to make promises which were not believed in; it is bad enough to disregard solemn pledges made 11 months ago; but it is far worse to come to a decision which is not clear and which is not honest.

The Minister for Agriculture said here to-day that he was not happy about it. I am not surprised. He said that this would not have been his policy. Whose policy has it been, then? It is the Minister's responsibility and we are entitled to assume that this is his policy, or is this a Government at all? Is there collective responsibility in this Government? What is the sense in the Minister standing up here and saying: "I would not have done this and I do not believe in it", when in fact it is done in his name by the Government, or was he overruled by the townies, that Deputy Esmonde referred to? Is there some hidden third force in the Government to-day that is against the farmers and against the agricultural industry? If so, we should be told about it. In any event, the whole thing has been discreditable. This Government has failed to live up to its responsibility, in this context and in others, and we have the appalling defence made by the Minister for Agriculture to the effect that Fianna Fáil last year got a blank cheque from the people.

They lost £1,000,000.

If they got a blank cheque, it has bounced. Could anyone imagine a responsible member of the Government saying: "No matter what we do, or would do, we are sent here with a blank cheque from the people." The fact is in relation to wheat, and in relation to unemployment, this Government entered into commitments. They got people to vote for them. They won seats because decent people up and down the country trusted them. Having trusted them, they now find that their electoral support was obtained by false pretences. It is our duty in the Dáil, as the main Opposition, to ensure that at all times the public interests are safeguarded.

We have put down this motion and raised this matter here in the Dáil in order to ensure that never again will any political Party embark on such a wholesale campaign of deceit as Fianna Fáil did in relation to wheat. We know that we cannot reverse the decision. We know that we have not the power now to affect what has been done. I say that, if we had the responsibility and if we were faced with the problem which faces the Fianna Fáil Government to-day, we would do what we did before—declare a clear price to the farmers and stand by our decision. We deplore the action that has been taken because it is in defiance of the spoken and written word and we trust that, in due course of time, the people will get an opportunity of deciding the fate of those who have defrauded them.

It was interesting to listen to Deputy O'Higgins talking about Governments and the observance of promises made in times of election, but the background of this whole discussion is not the year 1957 or the year 1956. We can go back to 1951 and we can remind the House and the public of the fact that, through their improvidence, through the absurd promises that they made in the 1948 election, and through their deliberate decision to encourage the spending of all the available and easily-got national savings, the Coalition Government placed this country, from the very start of their term in office, in the position wherein there would be no room for manoeuvre of any kind once we were faced with a trade crisis, a surplus of crops or a reduction in price for our exports.

In 1951 and 1952 we emphasised the possible and serious results that might accrue from the poisoning of the Fine Gael Party by Clann na Poblachta propaganda. We warned the public that if our reserves were dissipated we would not be able to face, with ease, the end of the post-war boom; we foretold that the boom must end some time or other. We made it clear that using up our available reserves, reserves secured in time of war, for purposes not connected with production, leaving no reserves for any trade recession that might occur, would inevitably bring serious consequences and serious results once we faced a difficult trading position. By a very narrow majority we managed to form a Government——

The busted flush.

——and we took certain restrictive action in order to make sure there would be some reserves left, some room for manoeuvring, some opportunities for dealing with the special situation which would arise where there were sudden surpluses or sudden decreases in prices for commodities.

Then came the general election in 1954. It would really make a cat laugh to listen to Deputy O'Higgins now charging the Fianna Fáil Government with breaking its promises when we remember the holocaust of nauseating propaganda in the 1954 Election, the millions of filthy little blue leaflets distributed around the country, promising to bring down the price of everything, to bring down taxes, to bring down the price of tobacco, drink and everything else. Millions of leaflets fluttered around the country in 1954 giving the people the impression that a good time was due to everybody, that they could vote themselves a higher standard of living, that nothing mattered except just driving out Fianna Fáil, when the inevitable result would be that costs would come down and everybody would have more money in their pockets.

Again, during that election, Fianna Fáil made absolutely clear the position facing the country—that only a reduction of costs, only modern efficiency, only a modern attitude towards production of every kind could get us over our difficulties. And we were defeated. I wish to state now, on behalf of the Government, that in the General Election of 1957 we fought an absolutely cold-blooded campaign. We said: "We know the country is in a bad way; we know that the last of the war boom reserves of savings have been dissipated; we do not know all the effects; we cannot say exactly what we will do; our policy is based on certain general lines and, when we get into office, we will see in the light of the facts, in the light of the trading situation, what can be done to restore the confidence of the people and enable production to be increased and deal with matters of vital importance coming upon the country largely in relation to the post-war boom collapse." We made it clear to everyone at the time that we were in an almost unique position in Europe. Very few other countries had saved any money during the war and those which had, had retained their savings, leaving them room for manoeuvre in regard to borrowing, in regard to current expenditure, in regard to subsidies and in regard to everything else.

We pointed out that we were in the difficult position that the post-war boom ended in the same year as the last of our easily-got reserves were dissipated and, therefore, we faced a very difficult situation. We pointed out that we had for ten long years warned the people that if they chose to buy consumer goods, to go ahead with expenditure which was not productive, without ensuring at the same time that they would be able to face competitive conditions at the end of the post-war boom, the difficulties they would face would be made far greater than they need be. Many of us were charged constantly with being hairshirt economists. We were charged with not wanting the people to enjoy themselves.

The people to-day, who face greater competition, who face difficulties that arise from our budgetary position, who suffer from the fact that it is no longer easy to lash out subsidies for anything, would now very much like there to be some room for manoeuvre within current budgetary expenditure and receipts, some room for manoeuvre in the form of savings which could be utilised, some room for manoeuvre in that there could be sudden aid brought to this or that section of the community, even on a temporary basis, to assist the country over a period of adjustment, an adjustment which will take some years, that adjustment that comes when competition enters the field in respect of products in relation to which there was little or no competition for ten long years after the war.

In 1954 the Fine Gael Party promised to reduce the cost of Government by some ten, if not twenty, million pounds. They increased the cost of Government before they left office by £13,000,000, and there was a further £5,000,000 in deficit, as we found when we took office. From 1953 to 1956 there was virtually no increase in production while, at the same time, there was an increase in expenditure by both State and local authorities of 13 per cent., leaving us, as I have said, virtually no room for manoeuvring, leaving us in an impossible position in relation to trying to do anything to offset the effects of the trade recession or offset the effects of surpluses.

I spoke at a great many meetings during the by-elections held before the General Election and at a great many meetings during the General Election. I never heard any reference to a promise to increase the price of wheat. I never heard any speeches wherein there was not the first and essential preface: "We have got to examine the situation before we do anything; we know that the Coalition Government has twice nearly brought this country to its knees; we are going into office to do the best we can and these are the main broad lines upon which we would like to proceed if given the opportunity."

We were so careful of our actions in this regard that, having published, some time in October, 1955, a Blueprint for Study of Economic Policy, having made it clear it was simply a blueprint for study, open to criticism by the public and by Fianna Fáil Deputies, that it was simply an enlarged study of all the economic problems of the country under every heading, we reissued even that blueprint late in 1956, and in the opening paragraphs, we made it quite clear that the country's position had so far deteriorated, that the balance of payments position was so serious, that much of what had been said before would have to be re-examined and that even the tentative plans put forward for consideration would have to be re-examined in the light of the financial circumstances as we would find them when we secured office. In one particular paragraph of that second edition of these plans for study, we made it perfectly clear that, in connection with the proposals of a tentative character then made, there was no specific commitment and no specific promise made to the people of the country.

It is perfectly obvious that if expenditure had not gone up by £20,000,000, instead of going down by £20,000,000, we would have more room for manoeuvre. It is perfectly obvious that if the Coalition Government had fulfilled their promises of curbing alleged gross Government extravagance and if they had brought down the taxes on tobacco and drink as they had promised, we would have more room for manoeuvre in connection with any alterations required or any surpluses that came our way as a result of change in agricultural conditions.

In connection with the whole of the wheat campaign, it is perfectly obvious that a very considerable change was taking place in the attitude of the farmers to wheat growing from 1954 onward, a change determined partly by the enormous growth in the use of the combine harvester and partly by the fear of possible and temporary losses in cattle profits derived from the sudden unanticipated and temporary collapse in cattle prices that took place during the period of the inter-Party Government.

It is perfectly obvious that the standard of living was growing very rapidly and that the general trend of cattle prices and cattle movements betokened the necessity for many farmers to have an alternative form of production. The whole question of the attitude towards growing wheat was in a fluid condition during that period. There was a tremendous export of Argentinian beef to Great Britain, which affected the price; and there was a sudden and temporary decline in cattle prices, followed by stability but followed by a very great increase in the costs of rearing cattle. Although cattle prices have been very high recently, no farmer would say that his costs had not very much risen in relation to the rise in prices. For that reason, there was a constantly changing position in regard to wheat growing all through the years 1954, 1955 and 1956 and into 1957.

Everyone on this side of the House who was a Minister was careful to warn everybody else in Fianna Fáil speaking during the election to avoid making any specific promises and to avoid referring to the kind of things we would like to do, the sort of policy we would like to adopt, whether it concerned increases in the prices for commodities grown by the farmers or whether it concerned industrial policy or taxation. Any statements we made should always be on the lines of this: Fianna Fáil has in mind this type of policy, this kind of advance for the nation, but everything we say must be related to the facts as we find them when we secure office. Speeches by the Taoiseach, speeches by the Tánaiste and by every other member of the Government made that clear beyond all doubt.

At times, it was difficult to know how far to go because we were not fully alive to the economic situation. No Party out of office can know exactly the budgetary position or what lies in store for the incoming Government. No Party can possibly have a complete set of the facts required before any policy is established. We were in that position. Our major objective was to put the idea of coalition out of the heads of the people for good and all and to have a united Government to come back here and to see what we could do in what we knew would be very difficult circumstances.

It would be quite possible for any individual Deputy to refer to the reduction of wheat prices by the former Minister for Agriculture; it would be quite possible for any Deputy when speaking at a by-election to refer to that matter and refer to it in terms which suggested it was a wrong policy——

The Minister did it.

But whatever detailed comments were made, the general atmosphere in which the election was fought was one of the utmost realism, and everybody knows that. Everybody knows that Fianna Fáil did not attempt in any sense to copy the disastrous propaganda of the Coalition Government in 1954. Everybody knows that Fianna Fáil did not attempt to copy the disastrous propaganda of the Coalition Parties in 1947, who spent all their time promising everything to everybody at no cost to anyone.

The reason why there is this disturbance of mind quite naturally amongst the farmers of the country is that we have not got the £250,000,000 of savings that were dissipated or debts incurred against them, which we could now use as a cushion in regard to trade matters or anything else. The reason why the minds of the farmers are disturbed about present conditions is that the standard of living in this country has increased enormously, without the necessary increase of production to back it up. The reason why the minds of the farmers are disturbed is that, ever since the war, we have been living in the atmosphere of a nation that is prepared to dissipate its savings without thought of the morrow and without facing the realities of a highly competitive world.

That is all I need to say on this subject. As far as I am concerned, and my colleagues will speak with me, I can only recall thousands of persons throughout the country, day after day and week after week, hearing my speeches in this cruelly realistic vein, without making any promises whatsoever that there would be an immediate increase in prosperity or that the difficulties we would be bound to face would be quickly overcome.

I made a particular study, as far as my colleagues were concerned, of the whole question of competitive conditions and I said on behalf of my colleagues that there was a likelihood of a decrease in prices. I said in many places during the general election that profits might have to go down, even if output went up, that it was taking place all over the world, that all over the world the agricultural community were complaining of increased costs to them, even though they were producing more, that the actual interest they got on their invested capital was coming down. The interest on the invested capital of the Danish farmer has come down in a few years from about 7 per cent. to 5 per cent. As I have said, I was particularly careful to emphasise the fact of a world decline in profits and of greater competition. My speeches were published in the local and daily newspapers. That was accepted as part of the Fianna Fáil warnings in regard to the whole position we were likely to face.

Having listened to the earlier part of this debate, I think the subject matter of the discussion was somewhat estranged from the motion tabled. This motion by Fine Gael seems to condemn the Government for the repudiation of specific undertakings given to wheat growers during the election campaign. It also went on to refer to some of that Party's literature. I had hoped that we would hear from the responsible Minister—the Minister for Agriculture —some statement regarding this motion, but none was forthcoming. I am to assume that he regards this motion as well-founded and I may add that I regard it as superfluous, because everyone knows that these assurances were given to the electorate by Fianna Fáil and that they have not been honoured. However, I do not want to labour that point.

I must come to the actual discussion that has taken place on the motion before the House. That discussion centres around the price of wheat, barley and other grain crops. The policy of the Labour Party, so far as prices for these crops are concerned, is well known. We have always advocated a fair and reasonable return for all agricultural produce, whether it be wheat, barley or any other agricultural crop. At this stage, I think I may mention that the question of the price of wheat does not, so far as growers are concerned, affect the country as a whole, but a very limited portion of it.

I come from a constituency where the production of wheat is on a very limited scale, but we are thoroughly conversant with its production, because, during the emergency, even though much of the land was not suited or adapted to the growing of wheat, the farmers produced it there in abundance. For some time back, particularly during the past few years, a kind of warfare has been going on between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael regarding the prices of wheat. It seems to me that when one Party were in power, they considered the price of wheat then in existence rather excessive and the other Party, adopting a different attitude, condemned them for that assertion.

We had, after a detailed examination, a reduction in the price of wheat in 1956 and in this House and at meetings of every committee of agriculture throughout the country, we had protests from Fianna Fáil members. In fact, it occupied the time of the Cork County Committee of Agriculture for, I am sure, three successive meetings. At the time, it was claimed that the policy of the then Government in reducing the price of wheat would have a disastrous effect; that the acreage would be reduced; and that, consequently, we would have to import more foreign wheat.

I think I must agree with the statements made by the speakers in support of this motion that undoubtedly Fianna Fáil gave solemn assurances, particularly in the wheat growing areas, that if they were elected, the price would be increased. I am mainly concerned with the general outcome of these assurances and this warfare between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael regarding the price of wheat, so far as public funds are concerned.

We have the answer from the Minister for Agriculture, because in his statement to-day he informed the House that we have on hands 95,000 tons of wheat which he is endeavouring to sell before September 1st next at a loss of £1,250,000. These assurances given at the last election, in my opinion, undoubtedly brought about the 18 per cent. increase in the acreage of wheat in this country. As a result of that increase, we are now in the position that the taxpayers must subsidise that excess acreage to the tune of £1,250,000. To put a price on the wheat price promises given to the farmers at the last election, I believe the fairest figure that could be accepted is the Minister's own figure of what it will cost to sell off that wheat, £1,250,000.

Let us leave aside consideration of that item for the moment and advert to what is a fair price for the growing of wheat. In assessing what a fair price would be, we must have regard to the price obtaining for all other types of farm produce. We must have regard to the fact that, as pointed out by previous speakers, the growing of wheat is confined to seven or eight counties. It cannot be denied that the farmers living in these counties are the most affluent in the land mainly because their land is much better and because there is a better likelihood of greater yields from that land than from much of the other land in the western and southern seaboards of the country.

I take it that the position of a farmer in Wexford and even in South Cork, part of my own county, in Laois-Offaly and Carlow-Kilkenny is entirely different from the position of farmers in other districts. We are interested to ensure that an excessive price is not put on commodities such as wheat and barley. Let us take the case of farmers—the great bulk of them—in the constituency I represent and deal with the price of barley.

Barley was grown excessively as a result of State legislation assuring the farmers of such a price if they produced it and then guaranteeing that it would be mixed to the extent of 50 per cent. with maize. Every pig producer in West Cork had to subsidise the farmers who grew that barley in Wexford, Laois-Offaly and Carlow-Kilkenny because he had, whether he liked it or not, to buy that mixture.

With regard to wheat, the gloomy promises made by the people in both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael that there was a likelihood that the acreage of wheat would be reduced if some more definite attractions were not given to the growers, I think have been found to be completely unjustified. The position, to my mind, is that, when we have an increase of 18 per cent. and when we had last year an increase of 3 per cent. or 4 per cent. over the yield for the previous year, we can assume that the wheat growers were satisfied with the prices obtaining and that we would have sufficient wheat grown in the country to meet our requirements without giving them any further assurances of increases. Deputy Corry—I cannot but refer to him——

Banquo's ghost.

——and indeed his friend Deputy Moher—laboured this question at great length at various meetings of the County Committee of Agriculture and, mark you, made it quite clear as two big farmers, and two wheat producers I assume, that the price was uneconomic and that if there was not a change of Government and if the price was not increased rather substantially it would have disastrous results for the country because acreage would go down so much that we would have to import thousands of tons of wheat to meet our requirements.

I never said anything like that.

That was the trend of the discussion. The Deputy's colleague and friend not only said that publicly but he went out in three or four constituencies, in Carlow-Kilkenny particularly, and went into the house of every farmer producing wheat and gave them his personal assurances. I think that is a well-known fact that Deputy Corry will not deny.

The Minister was absent when I summed up the results of the price the Irish people will have to pay for these assurances. The price I put on them, assuming the Minister's figures were correct, is £1,250,000. That is what he told us a few hours ago he must get from the Irish people in order to sell off the 95,000 tons carry-over that he has on hand at the present time.

Last year, when Fianna Fáil were condemning the Government for the reduction in the price of wheat, what did the Minister tell us was the position at the very time—and even prior to that—when Deputy Corry and his people were canvassing all over the country about the price of wheat and getting votes on the strength of it? What was the position? Even on the 1st September, 1956, the Minister has now informed the House, the carry-over was 55,000 tons. Was it not reasonable for Fianna Fáil to assume then that the previous Government in determining the existing price for wheat were fair and just because the position then indicated that even with the reduction in price brought about by the former Minister for Agriculture, we still had more than we required?

I can see the position in which the Minister finds himself at present regarding the price of wheat. He gave assurances to the people; the election came early in March and I think it was generally assumed in February, because of the promises handed out to the people, that Fianna Fáil had a good chance of being elected. The farmers, on the assumption of the increased prices that they expected, arranged to grow more wheat than they had actually intended, so that we now find ourselves with too much wheat. That is our big trouble and the Minister's headache is to get rid of it. I make these comments because I think they are more appropriate to the motion before the House than some made during this debate already and which more or less side-tracked the issue.

It is appreciated in the Labour Party that the price of wheat is bound to have a reaction on the price of bread and flour but the peculiar position exists at present that the price of wheat is going down and the price of bread and flour going up. In viewing these prices, we take cognisance of the Government's difficulty in finding this £1,250,000 which is the result of their own foolish, unwise and unjust policy of trying to get votes in wheat-growing constituencies during the last election by giving out these false assurances. Having regard to the fact that this motion does not state anything about what the price of wheat should be and contains only statements about which everyone in the country is already aware, so far as I am concerned I see no reason for voting one way or the other on this motion. If the motion sought either to increase or reduce the price of wheat it would be a different matter but in my opinion the motion is entirely superfluous because it seeks to condemn Fianna Fáil for an action for which everyone knows they are responsible.

The beginning of this discussion strongly tended to promote an eruption of the old bitterness that undoubtedly exists between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I think the resurrection of such bitterness cannot but have disastrous effects. The result of Fianna Fáil endeavouring to outbid everybody for votes at the last election has had the more than disastrous effect in the current year of getting this £1,250,000 out of the taxpayers' pockets to help to sell off the extra wheat produced.

I do not want to delay the House; I realise the time is very limited and there are many people very anxious to contribute to this discussion but the time is now opportune when the position obtaining should afford the Minister food for thought in fixing prices or in asking people to do something that is not desirable in present circumstances, such as asking them to grow a surplus supply of wheat. The Minister should learn by the mistakes of the past. I hope the Minister and his Department will try to get a fair balance between wheat, oats, barley, potatoes and other crops, which are equally useful. As I have already said, the people in the less fertile parts of the country have to bear the cost of the subsidised prices to growers in the more favoured centres.

I conclude by strongly condemning the attitude of the Government in imposing this large amount of taxation unwarrantedly on the people as a result of the false assurances they gave this time last year which caused an 18 per cent. increase in the acreage of wheat at a cost to the taxpayers of £1,250,000.

Those who spoke for the motion made it quite clear and were quite frank about it that it was introduced purely as a political motion to draw attention, it was said, to some statements that had been made during the election period. Compare the so-called proofs that have been adduced of these statements with the documented proofs that we gave when we had to draw attention to the fact that the previous Government had got into office on false pretences and you will see how hollow is the case that they have been trying to make.

I am not interested, however, in that aspect of it. What I am interested in, what members of the Government are interested in, is the economic position of this country, of which the wheat question is but one aspect. An economic blizzard began a couple of years ago in this country and the snow has not yet lifted off. We are in a serious economic situation, a situation in which, although a balance has been achieved in our external payments, the budgetary question is naturally causing the Government at the moment considerable anxiety. We set as our main objectives to try to bring about a balance in our external payments and a balance in the national domestic accounts.

In a situation like that subsidies of any kind become a matter of very grave importance and, our principal industry being agriculture, where there has to be a question of subsidies, we realise that to a large extent these subsidies, if they are given, will have to be met by the agricultural industry itself.

The wheat position, which is one of the reasons for bringing forward this resolution, has been explained very fully by the Minister for Agriculture. He has shown you that for the last couple of years production has been in excess of home needs, of what can be usefully used at home.

References have been made to certain attacks that were made on a previous Minister for Agriculture when he brought about a heavy reduction in the price of wheat. Behind that was suspicion, suspicion of what the Minister's intentions were, because, when there was a change of Government, when we went out of office on a previous occasion, the acreage under tillage fell very rapidly and, in view of the Minister's past statements with regard to wheat when we were trying to get the people to grow the wheat necessary for home requirements, it was not unnatural that there should be such suspicion. It was that suspicion rather than anything else that was responsible largely for the campaign against the reduction at that particular time.

However, the facts are that we have now got to a situation in which we are getting more wheat grown than is required for our home needs. We examined this question on the broad basis of the national economy somewhere back about 1954 and at that time we came to the conclusion that the best national policy, for the time at any rate, was that we should try to get about 300,000 tons of dried wheat. At that time it was expected that that would be about two-thirds of the national requirements.

Our policy fundamentally being that of trying to produce in this country the wheat that was needed to produce the bread and flour that was required, we naturally considered the question of the importation of foreign wheat for baker's flour. We examined it carefully. Some of us were not very well satisfied that more could not be used but, however, any evidence that we could get did not support the views that some of us held that a much greater quantity could be used. Take my own case, for instance. I had eaten, whenever I could get it, wholemeal bread but the fact that I and others like it and that wholemeal could be used to make good bread does not mean that other people have the same tastes and would be satisfied with that type of bread. For instance, the recent reduction in the consumption of flour has been attributed largely to the fact that there was too high an extraction of wheat in it, that the public taste wanted a lighter bread and that in order to produce that lighter bread it was necessary to get in a certain proportion of wheat from outside. However, in 1954, we came to the conclusion that the broad national aims could best be met by having as our objective the production of about two-thirds of our wheat requirements.

When you fix a price for a commodity like wheat you cannot always be sure of the result. The growers, of course, will always say that the price is not sufficient and will always threaten that they will go out of wheat-growing if they do not get a higher price. It may be that the price is high and you get an excess. If, on the other hand, you make a mistake and the price is lower or if the growers make up their minds that they will teach you a lesson, so to speak, by not growing, then you have a shortage. It is very difficult, therefore, for any Government or any price-fixing body to tell in advance what is the price that will give the return that you require. There is also, of course, the fact that climatic changes and conditions at harvest, and so on, will affect the result. So, it is extremely difficult for any body, no matter how anxious they may be, to fix justly, in advance, the price that will give the amount of wheat that is required.

Many other factors enter into it besides those I have mentioned. There are the relative prices of other things that can be produced on the farm and so on. So that, to fix a price that will be fair to the farmer and fair to the consumer and that will give the amount that you require, regarding that as the central point of national policy, is extremely difficult.

The prices and the conditions were such in the last couple of years that we have had an excess. As the Minister for Agriculture pointed out, it was never the policy of our Government or our Party nor would it, I think, be the policy of any sensible body of people to set out on a policy of growing wheat for export. We know that the prices you would get for wheat exports are considerably lower than the prices you have to pay the farmer to get him to produce wheat for our home consumption. Therefore, once you reached the stage at which you had reasonably met our home requirements, you must regard the national policy as having been fulfilled. We have reached that position. The only difference between members of our own Party or members of the House generally, irrespective of Party, in that regard is whether we could not get a larger quantity of home-grown wheat used in the making of flour. Experiments on that are going on. It has been said that you can produce a good pan loaf from flour made entirely from Irish wheat. These experiments will be continued but, so far, we are not satisfied that the case being made for an admixture of foreign wheat is not sound. We cannot prove it is unsound. I hope that, by having suitable classes of wheat grown, by the continuation of experiments and by the improvement of methods, we will be able to reach a point at which a far greater quantity of home-grown wheat can be used than at the present time.

As I said, in 1954 the ratio we had in mind was two-thirds home-grown wheat. Now we have got to the stage at which it is three-fourths. We are working on the basis of 300,000 tons of home-grown wheat being necessary, the balance, roughly about one-third of that, being obtained from outside. There is a difference of opinion on that. I have told you that we would be anxious to go as high in that regard as possible. As I have already indicated, there is a certain advantage in having a figure for home production which is somewhat less than total requirements because total requirements vary from year to year and, from the national safety point of view, you are always fairly safe if you have anything like the two-thirds or three-fourths figure. If there was an emergency you could easily extend, as we did during the war.

The increase in the quantity of wheat available for milling has been due not merely to an increased acreage or increased prices but also to increased yields. If you compare the yields at present with the yield, for instance, when we had 640,000 acres under wheat, you will see what a great change has come about. The proper use of lime, artificial manures, and so on, has completely changed that situation. I remember looking over old statistics. I think that yields of 16 to 18 cwt. per acre were fairly common; now it is well in the twenties. You can, therefore, see that a smaller acreage will produce the amount required.

They used to talk about 450,000 acres being required to produce the target of 300,000 tons of dried wheat. Now the estimate will be down perhaps as low as 330,000 acres to produce the 300,000 tons, making due allowance for seed, and so on. Therefore, 350,000 acres would be about the sort of figure which, you would say, was not far from being right, if we keep as our aim the production of the 300,000 tons of dried Irish wheat, or three-fourths of what is needed.

The Minister has pointed out that, as a result of excess production, close on 100,000 tons had to be disposed of in the current cereal year. Who would bear the loss? How is it to be met? This year, the loss will be about £1,250,000, as the Minister has said. That will have to be borne by the tax-payer—and the farmer, due to indirect taxation and otherwise, has to contribute his share. Therefore, you can easily see that it is a heavy burden which, in our present circumstances, we should not ask the community to bear. What are the ways of meeting the situation? What can we do with the excess wheat? You have to clear it out of the way to make room for the new harvest. You have to dispose of it as best you can. The only avenues that you have are to sell it for animal feeding or to export it, if you can, for whatever price you can get for it on the foreign market. We know well that once we go on the foreign market with our wheat we are up against competition from all the great wheat-growing countries who have large surpluses to dispose of at cut prices. Therefore, we will lose on the exporting of it. I think the Minister mentioned that we would lose up to £20 a ton by exporting it whereas, the other way, we would be losing something about £12 a ton. However, we had to meet the bill and, so, this £1,250,000 will be required. We could not continue that.

The question is: How are we to deal with the incoming harvest? What will we do about it? The Minister told you that he consulted representatives of the farming community who would naturally be interested in these matters. Finally, the Government considered the various ways in which the difficulty could be met. One way was by diminishing the price. When there is excess production the natural thing to do is to reduce the price but, as I have told you, you do not always know what will happen when you diminish the price. Will you cut the price directly or will you say, as has been finally agreed upon—mind, it is agreement; there is no question of a majority decision—that the best way of handling the matter was as suggested from outside, namely, that there should be an estimate of the wheat yield in so far as we could get it for the coming year; that the guaranteed price will extend to 300,000 tons of dried wheat—that is the amount we require for home needs and we would continue to guarantee the price for it —but that there should be a price reduction in respect of total intake to enable the surplus, if any, to be disposed of without loss? It is true that whilst you cannot determine with accuracy the range within which the price is likely to lie, it has been estimated that in certain circumstances the abatement of the guaranteed price would be, say, 6/- per barrel. It may be less, but the possibilities of its being more are not very great unless production increases considerably. No one can foretell these things, because there are these elements I have mentioned. The question, then, is whether there is a better way than that of reducing prices. We have been challenged as to why we were not bold enough to reduce the price directly. There would be a lot to be said for that, if you could determine the right price. On the other hand, there is this to be said, that there may be an increased acreage at a lesser price. If the average prices worked out not too badly for the farmer, seeing that there were inevitable elements of uncertainty in it, it might not be a bad way at all.

However, for the coming harvest, that is the system which has been decided upon. I have heard nobody state definitely that the price should be reduced. They challenged us to do it, but did not put forward anything constructive. If they were to be constructive, they should say what the price should be, and what assurance we would have that the new price would be such as would enable us to obtain our requirements of Irish wheat. That is what we did not want to have, to reduce the quantity and import more wheat than otherwise would be necessary. The Minister was talking some time ago about a grist containing 50 per cent. Irish wheat, but I do not think he stressed sufficiently that this grist was fixed so as to enable good flour to be produced from the available wheat. The millers had said: "Let us bring in more foreign wheat and put it into the wheat here and then we will be able to use the Irish wheat, which has a rather large percentage of moisture." If there were a harvest of damp wheat, we might have to get in a larger quantity from outside.

No one has definitely put up any proposition. There has been a suggestion that, in future, in order to limit the amount that would be produced, it would be better to do as is done in the case of the beet growers and have a contract system. I have heard objections to the contract system. At first sight, it is the sort of system which would make an appeal to me as one which would be fair. I am interested —and I would say the majority of members of the House are interested —not in the big growers who have big machinery and combines which can till practically the whole farm. We are interested in the small or the average-sized farmer. We would like the average farmer to have land capable of growing wheat economically, to give him a chance of participating in this cash crop.

Some of the difficulties of the contract system were pointed out by those opposite when they were challenging the Minister about putting in more inspectors. If you use the contract system and tell the farmer that no one may grow more than a certain amount, you undoubtedly will need some system to satisfy yourself that the regulation or law is being obeyed, that some are not growing excess, while others are deprived of their due acreage. If there is a contract system, the people must keep to the amount in their contract As I say, at first sight that appears to be rather attractive, but unfortunately the more it is examined home the less attractive it becomes.

I would like to see a system in which the individual would get fair play, but in that case some system of inspection would be needed and I do not see any way in which it could be avoided. Therefore, the possibilities of that system have to be set aside. I say "the possibilities" because, although the arguments put up are strong, I do not know of any way in which they could be overcome, though it seems to me that, if they could be overcome, it would be generally a fairer way of distribution than any other.

The situation is one in which we have a duty to take a decision. We have taken a decision which we believe is in the best interests of the community. Nothing said here to-day alters my view that that decision is the right one. Everyone who has to sell any commodity—wheat, barley or anything else—naturally tries to get the highest price possible. On the other hand, the Government are here to look after the interests of the community as a whole. They have to look over the general economy and see that it is working out in the best interests of the vast majority of the people.

We have in agriculture a number of very serious problems. For instance, we have an excess of butter which we have to sell under the cost of production or below the cost at which it is sold on the home market. When that surplus has to be sold, who is to bear the loss? In the case of other traditional farm products, we are in some cases in a position which is far from being satisfactory. In regard to poultry and egg products, it was said not long ago from this side of the House, by those now opposite, that we would drown the people in the neighbouring island in eggs. Well, they are drowning themselves and other people outside in eggs now. Therefore, we have the problem as to whether we can do anything to revive the egg and poultry trade. In addition, we have to see if we can put the pig producing industry, the bacon industry and the dairying industry on a sound basis.

Now we have this question of wheat and with wheat we have the whole cereal situation. There is not a proper balance. As the Minister pointed out, we are exporting, at a very heavy loss, surplus quantities of wheat, whereas we have to import oats for our own use. To get a proper balance between the cereal crops, to see that we have enough tillage and keep a proper balance generally in our fundamental industry, agriculture, is our most pressing and our most vital task. There is no doubt that modern science makes it possible to increase the produce from each acre of land considerably—even an increase of 25 to 50 per cent. would not be an exaggeration. By proper use of the elements needed by the soil, one can undoubtedly increase the productivity of each acre. However, as has been pointed out many times, there is no use in increasing production unless that production can be disposed of with fair remuneration to the person who produces it.

Therefore, the big task for the Minister and for us all in setting our economic house in order is to see how best we can balance our agricultural economy. Wheat is but one item. It is quite clear we cannot continue subsidies in the way in which we have been doing it in the past. How are we to get a balance? We have to export in order to buy in the things we require to import, things we do not produce ourselves. Our exports mainly come from agriculture. The agricultural industry represents about 30 per cent. of the national income, but it is also the chief source from which we get the commodities we wish to export to enable us to buy in the goods required.

It is obvious that what we ought to seek to export are the things that give the best returns. At the moment, it appears that cattle give the best returns.

Hear, hear!

At the moment. From the national economy point of view, it might be that bacon would give good returns. In order to achieve that, it would be necessary to feed our pigs on home-grown barley. That is one of the advantages of increased production from the soil by proper methods. If we decide to feed barley to pigs and to get greater production of bacon on that basis, the more barley we produce per acre, the cheaper, obviously, per unit will be the barley fed. Therefore, if we try to establish a greater bacon industry on the basis of pigs fed on home-grown barley— which is good national economy—we must go about it with the best methods available. It must be understood and appraised coldly and looked at from the national interest. I do not think there will be anyone in this House who will differ from us fundamentally in the policy that is to be pursued in that matter.

We want to make agriculture our chief source of wealth. We want to try to get a balanced economy so that agriculture will give a reasonable reward to our farmers. I do not think there is, in fact, any fundamental difference between anybody who works in the national interest. Let us, therefore, take it for a moment that the fundamental task is to try to get this balance in agriculture. One of the steps that had to be taken, of necessity, was to correct the present situation which has resulted in a surplus of wheat. We do not want surplus wheat. How are we to arrange it so that we get just sufficient to fill our requirements? We think our method will lead to that result. It was in that spirit that the decision was taken. I think it is a pity that the debate should have turned to very narrow political lines. It was much more important that we should examine the fundamental questions.

A pity you did not say that 12 months ago.

The Taoiseach did not apologise for what he said 12 months ago.

What did I say?

I have all the cuttings.

What about Dr. Ryan's radio talk and Deputy Corry's statement?

These interruptions are disorderly.

One thing has clearly emerged from the Government side of the House on this motion, that is, they think increased production by the farmers is one of the greatest evils we could have. That is so, if we are to believe the Minister for Agriculture, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Lands. Is that not a great change?

I did not say that.

You said that increased production of bacon, wheat and butter was a loss.

I did not say what the Deputy said.

The Taoiseach is deliberately trying to quibble when he says he did not try to convey that impression. That is the impression that was left in my mind—that increased agricultural production now is an evil, after all the flag-waving we had about asking the lazy farmers to step-up production. Now we find that surpluses of butter, wheat, bacon or barley have all proved to be against the best interests of the country.

Might I suggest that the principal cause of the trouble is that, since Fianna Fáil came back to power, they have constantly used the agricultural industry and the farmers of this country as playthings for their own ends? They have stuck their noses into the farmers' business and disaster for the country has resulted. They began with the economic war; then there was a huge spate of land division, gifts for their own supporters.

The motion deals with wheat growing.

I was coming to it. The last blow they struck was at wheat. Since 1938 and 1939, Fianna Fáil had been trying to get the farmers to grow two-thirds of the bread requirements of this country in the form of wheat. It is a significant fact that, in spite of the sneaking and insulting remarks they made about Deputy Dillon, about there being a suspicion that he would discourage farmers from growing wheat, the first time we had a surplus of wheat was in 1956 when Deputy Dillon encouraged the farmers to grow it. It was a strange thing that, after 14 years of Fianna Fáil hammer and tongs tactics, it took Deputy Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture, to get a surplus of wheat.

It is significant that it was Deputy Dillon's sensible and manly approach to the problem of wheat growing, like his approach to other problems, that resulted in the highest yield of wheat ever reached in this country and that resulted in a surplus of 95,000 tons. Of course, strictly speaking, all this is going away from the terms of the motion, but the three Government speakers did not touch upon the motion at all. The motion asks the House to condemn the Government for their repudiation of the specific undertakings given by them to the growers of wheat. Not alone did Fianna Fáil make promises to wheat growers, but they gave pledges to farmers who were not growing wheat in order to get them to do so.

I clashed with Deputy Aiken, now Minister for External Affairs, in Ballyragget at a by-election meeting. Deputy Aiken, knowing I was there and listening, promised the farmers of that area that Fianna Fáil would restore the price of wheat to 82/6 a barrel. That was one of the promises. It was a shameful thing that any Party in this country would about turn in this way. Apparently the Taoiseach thinks that any means—any lies, any fraud—are quite good enough so long as they win an election. Apparently he thinks nobody but himself should be in the position of Taoiseach or Prime Minister.

Even during the last election campaign he went on to Belmullet and told the people there that the subsidy on bread and butter would not be taken off if he got back to power. Several other of his subordinates went all over the country giving the same promises. This motion does not deal so much with wheat as with very disreputable methods of getting into power, disreputable methods that have never been used by any other Party in the country except the Party opposite. Even yet, some of the Government speakers ought to speak to the motion and say why these methods are being used. The Irish people should not be treated as if they were a lot of half imbeciles who cannot distinguish between right and wrong, who must swallow everything that is said at election time, so that Fianna Fáil can go out and tell them any lies they like and that they can then, when they get into power, fleece them right and left. They did it in 1951 and it has been done again this year.

Many people cannot understand why it is that, according as the price of wheat is going down, the price of bread and flour is going up. It would have been much more appropriate if the Taoiseach had devoted a few minutes to trying to explain that. The townsman, the working man and everyone who buys a bag of flour or a loaf of bread has to pay more for it. At the same time he reads that the farmer is cut to the bone in the price of everything he sells including wheat. I suppose the Government will do the same with wheat, as they did with butter— tax the people more in order to induce foreigners to eat our surplus production. All this arises from tampering with the agricultural industry by people who know nothing about it and who are tampering with it for their own needs. This tampering has brought nothing but misfortune. The farmers are quite well able to mind their own business without being doctored, schooled or driven. The proper and decent thing to do is to give them a chance to earn their living and to work their land. They have done it in the past and the present generation are quite capable of doing it now.

The Taoiseach has stated that he is not so much concerned with the big farmer who has a combine, who with a machine or two can till the whole farm as with the small farmer. May I say that this method of fixing the price for wheat this year is one that is very cunningly calculated to cut the small farmer out? The new price of wheat cannot be determined until after a certain inflow of wheat from the combine starts to come into the mill. That is my interpretation of the statement issued by the Government Information Bureau. The price will be cut up to 6/- as soon as the wheat in excess of the 300,000 tons starts to come into the mill. I take it a survey will be taken by the Guards in the usual way when they are gathering agricultural statistics during the summer and I can see that some farmers will be inclined to deny the acreage they have sown.

We all know the seed from the combine harvester is the first to reach the mills. The farmer who grows wheat in the old way, who cuts it with a scythe or binder and stooks it, will not be able to send the wheat into the mills until November or December. By that time the combine man, the big farmer the Taoiseach said he is not concerned with, has got the full price for the wheat while the small farmer will in all probability bear all of the cut. That is rather a queer way of fixing the price. If you are going to cut the price let it be an all-round cut, but this method that is being adopted will cut out the small farmer and help once again the rancher and the big fellow. Everybody knows that Fianna Fáil is in the grip of big financiers in this country.

Who are they?

We know who they are. It is not so many elections ago since Fianna Fáil published a list of those people who subscribed up to £1,000. If the Taoiseach will look up that list in the Irish Press he will find who they are. Is it because of the colour of their eyes that people are prepared to give £1,000 as a gift to a political Party to put them into power, or is it a bargain made beforehand that they will dance according to the music dictated by the subscriber?

No such bargain was ever made or could be made.

All right. Let us accept that statement. It is a very strange thing, then, that the whole Fianna Fáil policy is aimed at making the rich man richer and the poor man poorer.

That is not true either.

Indeed it is true. That is exactly what you are doing. Look at the emigrant ships. It is not the wealthy people who are flying from the country. It is the small farmers' sons and the workmen's sons.

Every year recently we could have looked at them when the Coalition Government was in power.

The Coalition Government was the very first Government that checked the downward trend of our population. For the very first time in 1951 the population of the country was estabilised, and Fianna Fáil was not back in power 18 months until the ships and the aeroplanes were full again carrying away our boys and girls.

The Deputy will find another opportunity to discuss emigration.

Very good, but the cutting of the price of wheat and the methods of dealing with other agricultural problems are giving our youngsters a very discouraging notion of what the country is like. It is not very encouraging either to the wheat growers of this country that £1,300,000 is being spent on a runway down at Shannon in order to provide easier accommodation for them to fly from the country.

I realise that every Government has its difficulties and I sympathise fully with the present Taoiseach but we also had our difficulties when we were in office and we faced up to them. We did not resort to the various dishonest tactics of telling the people one thing and then, when we got into power, laying the lash on their backs as the Taoiseach has done.

What about going back to 1951 prices?

I am in full agreement with this motion and apart from the price of wheat or of any other commodity it is a shameful thing that a political Party should go out deliberately and make promises that they have no notion of fulfilling and to laugh once they get into power as has been done by every member of the Fianna Fáil Party. The Taoiseach knows it is a great joke to cod the people, to get into power by fraud. Fool the people, but get into power and then laugh. I suppose this much could be said, that you are right to laugh at the people who were gullible enough to vote for Fianna Fáil. I suppose it is the right treatment for the silly people who voted for you.

I have often had occasion to criticise the Taoiseach, but I can say this much, that he is rather wonderful when he comes in here and puts on the air of sweet reasonableness. I was just conjuring him up as he was when he was over here and when there was no reasonableness. He said that the Fianna Fáil Party were suspicious of the former Minister for Agriculture and that that was one of the reasons why they had gone out against him. They went out against him in no small fashion. At every county committee of agriculture the henchmen of Fianna Fáil were there howling, and at every cumann and on every opportunity that it was possible to smear and to undermine him. I have heard it said in the House by the present Minister for Agriculture, that the proper policy was to aim at a balanced agriculture and that we should have wheat, barley and oats. During Deputy Dillon's term of office, he delivered the wheat, barley and oats. Now we have it unbalanced again.

I will speak to this motion, but I must answer Fianna Fáil Ministers in regard to what they said and the serious things they said, apart from what the Taoiseach said. The Minister for Lands said that the standard of living had increased, without the necessary rise in production. I want to ask the Minister for Lands—and every member on the Fianna Fáil Benches—does he want increased production in wheat, barley, pigs, milk and butter? I asked the Minister for Finance that question last year and I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce the same question at Budget time. I also asked the late Minister for Agriculture, Senator Seán Moylan, God rest him, and like good, sound equivocators, they ducked it and refused to answer. My reason for asking that question is all this claptrap from Ministers going around opening buildings and speaking at chamber of commerce dinners, giving the old line and saying that what we want is increased production.

The Taoiseach said it to-day. They are all saying it. The Minister for Lands said that nobody on the Fianna Fáil Front Benches had, during the election, given any undertakings. He says that nobody speaking before or during the election gave any specific promises. The Minister for Agriculture said the same thing this morning. Then we had the talk about the blank cheque that Fianna Fáil had. I want to read something which was said, not at some lowly cumann or down in some place in Cork City where they thought the Press was not present, but at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis in 1956. The Minister for Lands, who says that no prominent member of Fianna Fáil had ever given guarantees about wheat, said that the biggest problem of all was to convince the farmers that, if they produced more, prices would not go down. It was felt that there must be an increase in the price of wheat in order to encourage farmers to grow it. That was published in the Irish Independent, the Irish Press and the Irish Times on 21st November, 1956.

Is that not a frightful state of affairs, that a Minister of State can come in here and make a statement like the one which he made to-day, straight off the cuff? If anybody had come into the gallery when he was speaking, he would say that there was a sincere man, a serious man who knew what he was talking about. If I were to describe what it is, I would have to use an unparliamentary expression. Now, of course, they made no specific promises, but there was a howling, like the howling of wolves, in Kilkenny, over wheat. There was a howling outside chapel gates and I think the Deputy to whom I am referring knows whom I mean. The Minister said here this morning that he was rather proud of his big stick reputation. I was often wondering why he was selected as Minister for Agriculture. Now I realise why he was selected. It was because he was the man who could produce the big stick. Nobody has tested the fortitude of the Irish farmer as much as the Taoiseach and his Party, and nobody knows how much the Irish farmer can endure because the Irish farmers have suffered from their hands.

The Taoiseach spoke here to-day, and I thought it was an extraordinary thing—I took a note of it, because you have to take notes in this House; if you do not, they will probably say that they did not say it—about how to cope with the surplus of wheat. He said that a price reduction was suggested from outside. Was this from outer space? Was it from the millers, or is there somebody outside running the Government and has nobody inside the Party anything to do with it at all?

I was very glad to hear the Taoiseach say—and I wrote this down, too, and I think my colleague wrote it down—that it was good to produce barley for home consumption. I heard a Minister on that side of the House saying that in the last Government on several occasions and he was jeered at by the trained Party men. Deputy Dillon constantly preached that, but anything that Deputy Dillon preached —he was the man under suspicion— was jeered at. That is the kind of patriotism we have. We were told that this was a political debate. Since the Fianna Fáil Party started their propaganda for growing wheat, they have made wheat a political crop. It was they who did it.

Now we have three Ministers of State and the Taoiseach saying that there were no specific promises given to the people. This paper must be a forgery. There are some great headlines in it—"Full Employment", "Unemployment Can Be Cured", "A Plan For Agriculture"——

Will the Deputy give the reference?

It is a publication published by Fianna Fáil, 15 Upper Mount Street, and printed by the Irish Press, Burgh Quay, Dublin. I suppose they printed about 300,000 copies last year because they nearly kept the Waterford paper mill going. They were all over the road and everybody was sweeping them up. I thought it was worth while keeping this fairy story. One head line ran: “Industry Must Forge Ahead”, and another: “Action Can Start Now”. We have had some action in the past 12 months—we have had the Government in a coma. The publication also stated:—

"Farm produce worth £14,000,000 a year now imported could be grown here, at least to a considerable degree.

"Fianna Fáil will take the steps required to provide incentive for this production. The money thus circulated here will give widespread direct and indirect employment."

Now it looks as if we have to reduce our wheat acreage. That is evidently Government policy.

I am going to do what none of the Ministers or members of the Fianna Fáil Party did. I am actually going to speak to this motion. Do not laugh because nobody over there spoke to it. The Minister for Agriculture did a right job here to-day. He grappled with everything but the motion. He had us back to 1927, to Cumann na nGaedheal, to 1932 and then to 1947 when he was in fields full of inspectors. Then he said we were calling them old men. I timed him and he spoke for a quarter of an hour on that topic. However, speaking to the motion, the price of wheat has been reduced and the price of bread has been put up by the Government. Farm costings have gone up; rates have gone up, and it is difficult now to get men to drive these combines because they can earn much more working in England.

It has been mentioned in this House that the people who have combines must have thousands of acres of land. I know that in my own constituency, near South Kilkenny, the average size of farms is 35 acres and the place is crawling with combines. Brave young men bought these combines and contracted to do work for people on each side of the river. They bought combines, tractors and every kind of plough, and when they contracted to do a job, they were prepared to give a price for their work. It looks as if they are being sold down the river and that is why Deputy Smith was selected as Minister for Agriculture. He was the man with the big stick and could sell them down the river. He could even bring his stick to bear on the trained men on the Government Benches.

The Minister for Agriculture says that politicians and public men should not take advantage of a bad year, as they took advantage of the bad year in 1947. In my first year here in Dáil Éireann, when the first harvest came in, it was a hard one to bring in. I never heard such obstruction or anything like the questions and statements made at meetings of committees of agriculture. It was said that the farmers' wheat was being turned away from the mills. Anything was said to discourage the farmers. Deputies came in to say there were no dryers and no buyers. In my constituency, a communication was sent to me asking me to make inquiries at a local mill to know was it possible that a row of lorries was held up there. A statement to that effect was made by a responsible Fianna Fáil Deputy. When I went to inquire at the mill. I was told there was a row of lorries when the crossing gates were closed, but it was trotted out in this House as if farmers had to wait all day with their wheat and return again the next morning. There was not a word of truth in it. A telegram was sent to the Minister saying that farmers with wheat were meeting the difficulty of finding no buyers and no dryers, and that telegram was sent to him from a town where there were four buyers of wheat and three mills.

I must mention one other thing because the Taoiseach referred to it. He said it would be a good thing if we could build up our exporting industries and our exports of bacon, that it would be good if we grew barley cheaply and fed our pigs economically, and so on. I come from a city where a great pig trade was smashed and destroyed by an Act of Dáil Éireann.

The Deputy's remarks strike me as peculiar, in view of his statement that he intended to speak to the motion.

The Taoiseach mentioned the export of bacon, Sir.

And the Minister for Agriculture.

The pigs will probably be fed on wheat and on bread. I think I should be allowed to mention it.

I think so, too, because it is important.

It is no laughing matter. It affects men's lives, hopes, and futures. People's livelihoods are being taken away and people then stand up in this House and welcome that action.

I am sure the Deputy will get another opportunity of speaking on that subject.

I always make an opportunity to do so, because it is something I will never forget.

What Deputy Lynch said is the truth.

What may be the truth is not necessarily relevant to this motion.

There was nothing truer put to this House. Everything that is true may not be discussed on this motion, but there was a terrible lot of untruths discussed from over there.

The Deputy said he would deal specifically with the motion.

I will, Sir. I always bow to your ruling, even though you are always a bit tough on me. When this motion was being discussed this morning, I noticed the absence of the chief wheat commissars of Fianna Fáil. I do not know where they went to, but they were not here, anyway. It was said by the Minister for Agriculture that when they were in opposition, no protest was made when the price of wheat was reduced by the former Government. Now, Sir, I will just say that is a misstatement. I am being very charitable in saying it is a misstatement, because one could not pick up a paper without reading at least two columns of speeches at meetings of county committees of agriculture saying that the whole country was going down, and that the whole nation economically was being washed away. We had to beg dollars and all kinds of foreign currency from everybody in order to bring in wheat. The farmers would not grow it. As a matter of fact, the farmers were encouraged not to grow it.

Let us think for a moment of the position of the farmer. He told himself that he would grow so much wheat and he calculated what he would make on that wheat. It was not a case of counting chickens before they were hatched. They knew they would get so much for their wheat. Costs have now gone up. Machinery has increased in price, and it is more difficult to get help. The price of wheat has been reduced. The farmers have "got the bayonet" where barley is concerned. There is the highway robbery of the £3 a cwt. cut on pigs. That is a big knock. A lot of farmers are trembling in case the price of milk is reduced. Let there be no doubt that the price of milk will not be reduced. This is the good, old, subtle Fianna Fáil propaganda; they are putting it out all over the country that the price of milk will be reduced, so that the man with the big stick will be in the position to say: "What a good boy am I! I am not going to reduce the price of milk at all. Three cheers for the Minister for Agriculture!"

I have referred at length to the speeches that have been made. I missed a good deal of the howling in this debate to which we had to listen in the course of another debate. I brought in the Dáil Debates for last year, hoping that somebody would go back to see what was said last year and compare it with what has been said now on those benches over there. Last year, we had men over here who came from counties that grow no wheat at all and they howled and howled about the price of wheat. Ministers are going around the country to-day telling the people they must increase production: increased production is the solution. Let those Ministers make a statement to the House here and to the country telling the people fairly and squarely that they do not want increased production in wheat; they do not want increased production in barley; they do not want increased production in milk; and they do not want increased production in butter.

Deputies Rooney, O.J. Flanagan, Kyne and Corry rose.

There is half an hour to go.

A quarter of an hour will be sufficient for us to reply.

I shall not be long.

There was enough said about me this morning to justify giving me an opportunity of saying a few words in reply. When I came into this House first, some 31 long years ago, the first job I got was to go down to County Kilkenny on a Sunday morning. I landed there in a place called Mooncoin and I met there a very great friend of mine—God rest his soul—the first Minister for Agriculture here, Deputy Patrick Hogan. It was a fine wet day, raining down——

A fine wet day —that is a new one.

——and the Minister for Agriculture gave a look at the heavens and said: "This is a grand day for growing Fianna Fáil wheat." Now, I am still here and, despite all the attempts that were made over all those years, we are now in the position wherein we have succeeded in growing so much wheat that we are wondering what the devil to do with it.

You are on the road back now.

I listened with great interest to Deputy Murphy to-day telling us about his anxiety in regard to this matter. I wonder would Deputy Murphy like us to revert to this position: I am quoting from the Official Report of 29th January, 1947, column 597. Deputy Lemass, Minister for Industry and Commerce, said there:—

"In any event, all efforts to secure more than 8,000 tons of wheat and the 8,000 tons of flour allocated by the Government of the United States, to which I have referred, proved unsuccessful."

That was only ten years ago. The comment on that by Deputy Hughes at column 613 was:—

"If the foreign policy of the Taoiseach amounts to this, that we are to be told by the United States that our people are to exist on yellow meal, and that it is good enough for us, from now until next harvest, we certainly cannot compliment the Taoiseach on his foreign policy..."

That was the position then, and the West Cork boys were going to live on yellow meal from January until harvest——

——if the old farmers in East Cork did not produce the wheat to feed them. There have been many changes since then. But that was the period when Deputies here were jumping up, one after the other, protesting against the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Smith, compelling the people to plough the land and grow wheat. To-day, those same Deputies are shouting about the price of wheat.

Let us see where we have got in the meantime. The farmers have grown sufficient wheat to meet the requirements of the nation. Whilst we had numbers of people advising the farmers to grow wheat, we had a Department of State and a State body which went to sleep with the public money under their heads for a pillow. I refer to the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Industrial Research Council. Surely, when we were urging the farmers to grow our full requirements in wheat, it was the duty of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the manufacturing end of the industry to ensure that their part of the task was done. They should have been in the position to produce an all-Irish loaf out of all-Irish wheat. What was the position? To-day the Minister told us all the surpluses he has. I look at the trade statistics for last November and I find that, despite all the surpluses, 110,000 cwt. of foreign wheat were brought in here. For what? For what purpose did we import over 2,250,000 cwt. of wheat in the past 12 months at a price of £3,250,000?

How much a barrel was that?

72/11. The Deputy will never find me wrong in that. What was the justification for the import of this? My sole objection to the present proposal is that the small farmer who went out in that period, when this country was to be forced to eat yellow meal, and who ploughed and tilled his land and produced wheat is now to be placed in the same category as the beggar who refused to plough.

The Deputy is not very wrong there.

Through the gross negligence of the Department of Lands an intolerable position has been created here. In Deputy Hughes's constituency an Englishman buys 2,000 acres of land. He has 1,000 acres of that growing wheat this year——

The Deputy should remember it is the Minister who is responsible to this House.

I am not saying he is not.

The Deputy referred to the Department. He should refer to the Minister.

I am referring to the policy that allows this state of affairs to prevail. Down in that constituency a gentleman came in and bought 5,000 or 6,000 acres of land. He grew four crops of wheat in it and then sold it back to the natives. Then he came along and bought beside that another estate of 2,000 acres to do the same thing with it. A contractor down in Cork, who has enough to do without it, Sir John A. Wood, walked into the County Tipperary the other day and bought 4,000 acres of land and put it under wheat——

We are not discussing the administration of the Department of Lands. We are discussing a specific motion with regard to the price of wheat. The Deputy is travelling far from that.

I am dealing with the reason why we have a surplus of wheat. The man who can grow 400 acres of it and get a profit of £2 per acre is well satisfied to have £800 in his pocket, but the unfortunate small farmer who has only five or ten acres and gets £2 an acre will be looking for his medical cards.

The Minister told us to-day what he could get for the excess. It is rather a joke that the Minister can be told that dried wheat is now only worth £20 a ton for feeding. I remember a long number of years ago, during Deputy Dr. Ryan's period as Minister for Agriculture, going over with Senator O'Callaghan a pretty grave problem. It was the problem of when a grain of wheat that is sprouting grows on the stem. At that time, we asked for a licence to convert that wheat into a thing called wheat flakes. It was purchased by the millers at that time for £17 per ton. That is a long time ago, and it sold like hot cakes as wheat flakes for milch cows.

That has nothing to do with the price of wheat.

For the life of me I cannot see why the Minister should fix a price of £20 a ton for dried wheat to-day while at the same time he issues a circular to Grain Importers, Limited, that they are to sell feeding barley at £28 per ton. I have a little book giving the pig ration in Britain. In it the percentage of wheat is 20 per cent., barley meal, 40 per cent. and so on down the different items. They use 20 per cent. wheat in their ration. If we have to send abroad for foreign barley to put into our pig ration, surely there cannot be any great difference now that we have got the new British Landrace in here. Surely we ought to follow the British line in regard to that as in any other matter. We could use 20 per cent. wheat in our pig ration just as they can. Surely it is worth more as feeding barley put into pig ration. It is now 56/- a barrel; by the time it is finished in the ration it is 65/-.

On a point of order, Deputy Corry has only five minutes left. I should like him to explain why the £1 per barrel promised to the farmers 12 months ago is not now being paid?

I am an absolutely unrepentant sinner. I said that the market for wheat was the property of the Irish farmer and that in my opinion the price given for wheat by the late Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Tom Walsh, was the price the farmer was entitled to. I make no secret of it. I stand over it——

You will be sacked.

I will say one thing for Deputy Corry. He is the only one in the Party who speaks out.

I am not sorry for it. If this is what will prevail, you can put a match under the Health Act——

You can go to Messrs. Goulding and tell them that the Irish farmer is as much entitled to import artificial manures as anybody else. You can go to Messrs. Pierce and tell them to take the tariff off agricultural machinery, that the Irish farmer is entitled to be in the same position as any other farmer in the world. If it comes off one, it comes off all.

I have studied this thing as carefully as I could and I want to be as reasonable as I can with everybody. Our costs of production have gone up and if 82/6 was a fair price for wheat in 1953 and 1954, it should be a fair price for it to-day, with a little on to it to make up for the increased costs of production. The actual position of the Irish farmer to-day, comparing him with his colleagues across the Border and in Britain, has been absolutely set out in the bargain we made with Messrs. Arthur Guinness this year by which they allowed that the Irish grain grower was entitled to 8/- an acre over and above his comrade in Northern Ireland and Britain. That is the figure set out after going into all the figures. That was their decision. They made it up at half a crown a barrel to pay for the subsidy on concentrated manures; 2/- per barrel for barley to pay for the ground subsidy given by the British farmer and 2/10 a barrel to meet the rates the Irish farmer has to pay on agricultural land and which the English farmer and the farmer in the North of Ireland has not to pay.

I would remind the Deputy that there is only a quarter of an hour left.

I am giving the facts as well as I can.

I, too, regret having to curtail Deputy Corry's contribution. He was the only back bencher on the Government side who intervened. The Taoiseach spoke and the Minister for Lands spoke. I feel that any reply I would wish to make to the discussion could not sink in any deeper than the criticism which Deputy Corry had to offer of his own Government and Minister for Agriculture. Deputy Corry's criticisms will be tantamount to a very empty formula unless he supports his beliefs by voting on the right side of the Lobby in 15 minutes.

I have seen many come and go over there.

The Deputy always leaves. He never waits to hear the answer. Those who have spoken before me to-day advanced the reasons why 13 Deputies from the Fine Gael Party put down this motion. For the past five hours the House has been discussing it. I think that the anticipation of those who put their names to the motion has certainly been borne out by some remarkable achievements in consequence of the motion having been put down and discussed.

For 12 months the country has been seeking a statement of the Government's policy in relation to more matters than agriculture. It has not been forthcoming. It has been described as the greatest mystery in modern Irish life. It has not been forthcoming, but to-day it has been exposed. The Minister for Agriculture whom we can take as being a responsible Minister in this Government, announced to-day that his Government is in power in consequence of having been issued with a blank cheque by the electorate 12 months ago. Let that sink into the ears of every Deputy in this House and let it go forth from here to the electorate who put them in there but they did not put them in there, as the Taoiseach would like us to believe or as his Minister for Agriculture has said to-day, on the basis of giving to them a blank cheque.

The blank cheque was what the Taoiseach said in Belmullet and what the Tánaiste said in Waterford and what was said on many occasions during the campaign and before the campaign started in relation to what the Fianna Fáil Party would do with Éamon de Valera at their head if given a chance of governing this country again. The Taoiseach charged that there were hollow proofs on this side of the House in relation to the statements which his Ministers, his Party, his official publicity organ and every Fianna Fáil worker throughout the country said and made during the by-elections and during the subsequent general election.

Does the Taoiseach deny that he, his Party or his family have not had hand, act or part in the production and publication of An Gléas? Was it not distributed to many members of this House over a long period? It is described as the official organ of the Fianna Fáil Party and are we now asked to believe that its contents are far removed from the truth, that those who published these statements have no belief in them and did not intend that those statements would have any effect on public opinion in this country? For what other purpose were they published if not to have that effect on public opinion? Does he deny that the many quotations given here to-day were taken from that publication and not from any Opposition product?

Strangely enough, since they attained office it has not been circulated. It did its job. Quite apart from what was published in An Gléas at the time the wheat problem was up, we had the Minister for Finance and the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dr. Ryan, coming on the radio during election time. What did he say? Just one sentence—that a remunerative price would be fixed for crops such as wheat. He did not stop at crops. He had to select the one the Fianna Fáil Party was strongest on—wheat.

That is an example of how they obtained office. To-day we have the example of how they have responded to the mandate which, unfortunately, they got and which the Minister for Agriculture says was really a blank cheque—a blank cheque in relation to unemployment, the cost of living and the price of wheat. In An Gléas of January, 1956, it was stated that only an immediate Government decision to restore the 1954 price could save Irish wheat growing from disaster. The Taoiseach describes this as hollow proof.

The Minister for Lands is the most loquacious member of the Government. One can hardly turn on Radio Éireann but he is quoted. He is quoted in almost every paper to the extent of more than one column but on this occasion, as quoted in the three national daily papers of the 21st November, 1956, he said that there must be an increase in the price of wheat to encourage farmers to grow it. It was not left to the junior members of the Cabinet or to the Taoiseach alone to refer to the agricultural industry but it was left to Deputy Lemass, the Tánaiste, and Minister for Industry and Commerce who, when speaking at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis, said that the biggest problem of all was to convince farmers that if they produced more, prices would not go down disastrously.

For the first time in the history of this State we have a Government fining farmers for producing too much—imposing a fine on increased production. There were enough doubtful Johnnies in this country in relation to the advantages to be derived by the country and the people from increased production in all spheres of life without having them fortified in their erroneous beliefs by fining the farmer for producing too much wheat.

The Minister for Agriculture was very quick to spread the blame for this over the entire Cabinet. The Taoiseach would have us believe that outside sources prompted this solution. We understood we were in for strong government and that a Party with an overall majority would give this country strong government. Here we have a Minister for Agriculture stating that he does not like the scheme. It is not his scheme. We have the head of the Government saying that it was prompted from outside sources but he did not say what the outside sources were or why any Government should seek a suggestion from outside and not stand over it.

We do stand over it.

The members of the Taoiseach's Party at every county committee of agriculture for the past month have been saying that this is the National Farmers' Association scheme. The National Farmers' Association have more to contribute to the future of this country than merely being made the buffer for the unpopular actions of the Fianna Fáil Government.

We take full responsibility.

The Minister for Agriculture said to-day that he did not like it and used more than one doubtful expression in relation to this solution. We say we do not like it either. The country does not like it.

Would the Deputy suggest a better one?

The country does not like it, but as the Fianna Fáil Government have, by one fell blow, removed anything like certainty in relation to what the farmers will get, can the Taoiseach tell us or can the Minister for Agriculture, when he next gets an opportunity, announce to the agricultural community whether he will have to engage additional staff in order to work out his estimates in relation to what the farmers will have in the ground in time to tell the wheat growers what they are to receive when the wheat is at the mill door? Is he at this moment transferring officers from the land project and the farm building scheme on to such work or is he——

I shall take the Minister's word that he is not but how does he propose to estimate the amount of wheat which will be in the ground and how will he work out the average price and determine the price that will be paid when the farmers must receive payment? We think it is an unworkable scheme and that the whole principle of fining people for producing too much in the opinion of this Government, is wrong.

I said at the beginning that the outstanding feature of this debate was that it drew at last from some Minister in the Government a statement in relation to the policy of the Government now in office. We had one statement when the Minister for Agriculture said that they had been handed a blank cheque by the electorate and that consequently they were not answerable for whatever policies they may pursue. The second admission was more startling. It was an admission by the Taoiseach, a glowing tribute by the Taoiseach to the success of the policy pursued by, and the administration of, Deputy Dillon and the inter-Party Government. The Taoiseach to-day said everything except: "Walk your grain off the land." He did not say that, but in effect he implied it, as the solution to the grain-growing problem in this country.

The Minister for Agriculture to-day repeated the body blow he dealt last night when he said that this year he would avail of the opportunity to wipe out any kind of a guaranteed price for feeding barley were it not for the fact that there would be too much of a swing over to other grain crops. He does not want wheat; he does not want feeding barley—what does he want? He does not want milk; he has too much butter; at the back of his mind what he wants is cattle for export. The Taoiseach indeed said that in a sort of passing phrase: "We have cattle to export." And he left it at that.

Perhaps the Minister, when introducing the Estimates for Agriculture in a few weeks' time, will tell us what he wants the people to do. The situation to-day is very different from the time when Deputy Dillon reduced the price of wheat. At that time the growers of grain were diverted from growing wheat to growing coarse grains which were in insufficient supply here and had to be brought in from the ends of the earth to maintain the increased stocks of cattle that we had. To-day we are in the position that we have a position of surplus in wheat, in barley and in milk, thanks be to God and to Deputy Dillon, and the only thing that the Minister for Agriculture can dwell on is the fact that there was not enough oats to give us oatmeal. That was the only case he could find where he could pinpoint anything like an insufficiency in agricultural production. That was another grand tribute to his predecessor.

The Minister for Agriculture has been at pains in the course of his speech—he acted like a man under fire from more directions than one—to get the House to appreciate that he was not really as bad a boy as he was painted in 1947. More than half his speech dealt with 1947, the heavy rainfall of that year and the effect it had in drowning Deputy Smith as Minister for Agriculture. The answer to that— it does not really need any answer and we in the Opposition do not have to answer it—is that he did not get the appointment again to the Ministry when the opportunity arose. Two others have been appointed to the Ministry of Agriculture since then.

The Taoiseach is unfortunate in the fact that he could not find in the ranks of his entire Party a suitable Minister for Agriculture when he came to filling that vacancy in the Cabinet. I would remind him that he is not the only head of a Government who has that difficulty. The Prime Minister of France, M. Gailliard, found when he was filling Cabinet posts that he could fill every post but that of Minister for Agriculture, and he asked the Press Gallery to nominate a Minister for Agriculture, whom he accepted. If the Taoiseach had adopted some device such as this he could not have done any worse than he did when he appointed the present Minister.

Again, let me say that the Minister was desirous of spreading the responsibility for this matter over the entire Cabinet and he was right in that. The people down in the Cumainn would be very quick in this case as they were in blaming Deputy Aiken for his statements in the United Nations when they were not desirous of spreading the responsibility over the whole Cabinet. On this occasion the Minister has managed pretty well in that regard and has spread the blame and responsibility and laid it fairly and squarely on the shoulders of his colleagues and on the Taoiseach.

My time is running out but I should like to say a word to those sitting behind the Minister who got no opportunity of explaining themselves, those Deputies who were elected purely to support wheat prices, the Deputies who were elected 12 months ago and who have not yet spoken. They lost a glorious opportunity in this debate of breaking the ice and speaking on this motion. No doubt those Deputies, when they get to the Division Lobbies, will know what way to turn. They remind me very much of the buccaneers of old who had to walk the plank with eyes blindfolded. In the present case there will be no blinkers on their eyes, they will know where they are going and the electorate will certainly know what to think and to do when they get the opportunity.

It was not the buccaneers who had to walk the plank.

Before the motion is put to the House I feel that there is a certain amount of doubt——

The Deputy may not make a speech.

I do not intend to make a speech, but I should be glad if the Taoiseach would tell us what was the outside source of influence on the Government in regard to the price of wheat or who they were?

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 69.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hogan, Bridget.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neal T.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Griffin, James.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Séan.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and T. Lynch. Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman.
Question declared lost.
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