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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 1958

Vol. 170 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1958—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. I have already outlined to the House the main objectives towards which the Government has agreed constructional housing policy should be directed. In association with financial and administrative policy, these objectives are, first, the eradication of the remaining blocks of unfit housing, in particular in the larger urban areas; second, the rehousing of persons displaced through clearance operations by re-development, as far as is practicable, of the cleared areas; third, the encouragement of persons whose accommodation is unsuited for their needs and who are not served by the local authority programme, to provide houses for themselves, either by purchase of previously occupied houses or by having new houses erected for themselves; and fourth, to activate expansion in the very essential work of maintaining and improving the existing stock of houses by reconstruction, repair and improvement, the provision of water and sewerage services and by conversion of houses which are too large by modern conventions for single families, into separate dwellings of adequate standards either for renting or for sale.

The provisions of the Bill are specifically designed towards the furtherance of the objectives I have enumerated. In framing these legislative proposals, the Government have borne in mind the degree of progress already achieved; we have appraised the extent of the problems which remain and propose measures directed to the solution of these problems.

My approach to policy on private housing is that our attention should in present circumstances be concentrated mainly on the needs of those in the lower income groups, including small farmers, who do not come within the scope of local authority rehousing programmes and who find that the commitment of providing housing for themselves is too great, even with the backing of current grants and loan facilities. I think it is prudent, even essential, that additional facilities be made available for these groups. Without a special effort by the State and by the local authorities, people of the standing I have mentioned will continue to live in unsuitable and perhaps unfit dwellings.

It was from such circumstances that the main housing problems arose in the past, and which were vigorously tackled over the years by private and public enterprise with the assistance made available by successive Housing Acts. The cost was enormous relative to national expenditure but the burden borne by ratepayers and taxpayers alike has produced and will continue to produce dividends immeasurable in the field of good health and good citizenship. On this precedent, I have no hesitation in asking the House to approve further measures directed to the marginal groups below those already served by substantial State and local assistance.

I propose that the State grant for a new house in an area where a public piped water-supply and sewerage scheme are not available be increased by £25. This increase would automatically be reckonable for an increased supplementary grant up to £25 payable by the housing authority concerned. In essence, the proposal involves additional grants of up to £50 for persons living in areas isolated from the amenities which, in the present day, we who enjoy them take for granted.

In association with this measure, the Bill provides that the existing grant for the installation of private water-supply and sewerage system be increased from £60 to £75, or to £50 for water-supply and £25 for sewerage system where these are separately provided. It is proposed also that the reconstruction grants at present available to farmers and agricultural labourers be increased by £20 at each point of the scale which at present is £80 for a house of three rooms, £100 for a house of four rooms and £120 for a house of five or more rooms.

The supplementary grants at present payable by housing authorities are related to the State grants for reconstruction work undertaken by farmers and agricultural labourers and the provision of water and sewerage facilities by a graduated scale of valuation in the case of farmers and of income in the case of other persons. The supplementary grants payable in respect of works which qualify for improving grants under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts are also graded according to income or valuation.

The proposal before the House is that these scales be replaced by a provision enabling housing authorities to pay supplementary grants of equal amount with the State grants for these works, depending on the cost of the works carried out. The proposal will also have the effect of raising the valuation limit for farmers qualifying for supplementary reconstruction grants from £35 to £50, the qualifying limit for the State grant.

It is my earnest contention that the participation by housing authorities in assisting persons who were willing to improve the standard and amenities of their houses or to conserve through their own efforts dwellings which would otherwise deteriorate into unfitness, is of importance at least as great as the direct housing operations carried out by the housing authorities themselves. I consider that those authorities who have refrained from or discontinued such participation by not paying supplementary grants might review the position. It will pay them to do so, even if looked on as a mere matter of commercial prudence.

Grants for repair and improvement works are mainly availed of in urban areas. The existing legislative provisions achieved a creditable measure of success in inducing a substantial volume of this type of work. Nevertheless, the procedure has not been wholly satisfactory, as Deputies who have been interested are aware. The amendments I propose are, firstly, to increase the rates of these grants by £20, as is provided for in respect of reconstruction grants and, secondly, to simplify the administration of the grants and to extend their scope.

It is proposed that eligibility for these grants should be tested not by the suitability of the house for occupation by persons of the working classes or by agricultural labourers but by the essential nature of the works proposed for the purpose of providing suitable housing accommodation.

I have arranged with the Minister for Finance that housing authorities may borrow from the Local Loans Fund for the purpose of making grants for repair and improvement works and housing authorities are being informed accordingly by circular letter.

Provision is also made in the financial part of the Bill enabling housing authorities to make loans for repair or improvement works, capital for which will be available from the Local Loans Fund. The loans will be available for works which are essential for providing suitable housing accommodation. The incentive of loans in addition to grants will, I suggest, encourage the house owner to carry out essential works on his property whether he resides in the house himself or maintains it as a letting investment. It will also facilitate owners or prospective owners to carry out major conversion works on larger houses so as to provide additional rented accommodation of good modern standards, from which they may obtain an appropriate return on their investments.

The Government has agreed to make capital available to housing authorities to enable them to make advances under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts to persons in the lower income groups purchasing previously occupied houses. Housing authorities will be notified of the scope of this offer in due course. The existing definition of market value for this purpose is a simple one—the amount which in the opinion of the housing authority the house would realise if sold in the open market. As Deputies are aware, the purchase price on this basis does not include stamp duty, legal fees and other costs incidental to the purchase of such houses. It is proposed to enable housing authorities to include all such costs for the purpose of calculating the amount of advance to be made, in the same manner as they may be included in the advance for a new house.

There are many previously occupied houses on offer, particularly in the urban areas, and the availability of capital under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts will induce people to purchase these houses rather than reside in unsuitable flats or rooms or purchase new houses the commitment for which might be beyond their means. Viewing this proposal in conjunction with the repair loans provisions, it will be seen that a person may obtain a small dwellings loan for the purchase of a previously occupied house and may also obtain a loan for the repair of that house if necessary. The proposals may encourage people living in rented houses to buy the houses from their landlords and carry out works of repair and improvement.

I have given much consideration to the weight of representations made from time to time about the present system of rates remission on new grant houses, in particular to the impact on the lower income groups of the payment of full rates after a period of seven years in which only one-third of the rates assessment is payable. I have decided to recommend to the House the replacement of this system for future houses by a graduated scale of payments over ten years, beginning with the payment of one-tenth of the rates in the first year and increasing by one-tenth each year. In this way, there will be no sudden jump in the annual outgoings on the house.

Before turning to other aspects of this Bill, I want to record appreciation of the efforts of those who organise genuine co-operative housing. I feel there is scope for a great extension of activity in this field, particularly in rural areas where people can contribute largely by their own labour to the provision of houses for themselves. I am satisfied from experience that the grants from the State and housing authorities payable under this Bill would, with a person's own labour contribution, enable the provision of new houses by co-operative housing groups with minimum personal cash contributions.

The Bill contains an important provision relating to the financing of rural housing provided by county councils. In county health districts, including villages and towns in which county councils build cottages under the Labourers Acts, an annual subsidy is payable to the housing authority at a rate up to 60 per cent. of the loan charges, subject to fixed capital cost limits. Payment of the subsidy is not directly dependent upon the demolition or the repair of the previous accommodation of the persons rehoused, nor is it confined to agricultural workers. The subsidy is available for the rehousing of members of the working classes in labourers' cottages in those towns, villages and suburban areas in which the county councils provide dwellings under the Labourers Acts.

Two rates of annual State subsidy at present apply to dwellings let by housing authorities in urban areas. The major rate, up to 66? per cent. of the loan charges, subject to fixed capital cost limits, is payable in respect of dwellings let to persons who had been living in overcrowded conditions or in dangerous or unfit accommodation which has collapsed or has been demolished, closed or made fit by order of the housing authority, or to persons in needy circumstances, who required housing on medical, compassionate or other similar grounds. The minor rate of contribution, up to 33? per cent. of the loan charges, is payable for other lettings.

It is proposed that this system of subsidy will in future apply to rural, as well as to urban, housing. Where, for instance, a statutory operation such as the relief of overcrowding or the demolition of an unfit house is involved in rehousing an agricultural labourer or a person of the working classes outside an urban area, the higher subsidy rate would be payable under this Bill. The lower rate of subsidy would apply where no positive action is taken towards eliminating bad housing conditions or the relief of overcrowding.

In order that county councils will have all the powers of urban housing authorities to deal with slum clearance it is proposed that they should be required to make by-laws relating to overcrowding in respect of houses intended or used for occupation by the working classes.

There are two other provisions in the Bill relating to subsidy, neither of which makes any change as far as the financial position of housing authorities is concerned. One of these proposes to compound the value of certain subsidies payable under enactments of half a century ago. The intention is to simplify the method of extinguishing these old loans and to obviate the necessity for numerous annual calculations and numerous minor payments. In effect, the outstanding balances of certain loans will be reduced by the compounded value of the subsidies and certain investment funds from which annual dividends contributed to the subsidies will be surrendered to the Exchequer.

The purpose of the other provision is to give statutory authority for certain interest subsidy payments being made in respect of borrowings in the period 1948 to 1953. This authority is sought at the instance of the Public Accounts Committee and does not affect the payments made to housing authorities.

It has been the practice to renew the currency of the Labourers Acts from time to time for specific periods. The ultimate intention is to merge the Labourers Acts in the Housing of the Working Classes Acts so as to form a single code. The present Bill, like various previous Bills, makes its own contribution to this ultimate merger. It also provides for continuance of the Labourers Acts until they are replaced or repealed. When the consolidation of these codes is completed, the new code will replace the complex collection of Housing Acts which we now have to deal with.

The amendments proposed in the Bill relating to slum clearance operations are put forward in the light of the experience gained by housing authorities, who have found the existing provisions insufficient in some respects.

It is proposed that owners of premises which are the subject of demolition orders should be required as soon as the house has been vacated, to secure it against further occupation. The purpose of the provision is to prevent a recurrence of past experience of housing authorities who, having taken steps to clear an unfit house, found that the house had been reoccupied, thus hindering enforcement of the demolition order. It is proposed also that a person who occupies or permits another person to occupy an unfit house which is the subject of a statutory notice requiring repairs to be carried out and has become vacant should be liable to prosecution and prescribed penalties.

It is proposed that where land to be acquired by a housing authority by means of a compulsory purchase order includes dwelling-houses which are unfit for human habitation and are incapable at a reasonable cost of being made fit, the compensation payable in respect of the unfit dwelling-houses, if the Minister confirms the order, shall be site value less the cost of clearance. The Minister would have power, if he were not satisfied that a particular dwelling-house were unfit for human habitation and incapable at reasonable cost of being made fit, to exclude the premises from the "unfit" category, but to confirm the acquisition so that the compensation would be related to the market value. It is proposed that "dwelling-house" should be defined as a building used wholly or principally for human habitation. This provision contains no new principle. It will have the effect of preserving the well-established principle that buildings which are unfit for human habitation should qualify for compensation at cleared site value.

Provision is made widening the power which a housing authority has to close any part of a house let for human habitation so as to bring within this power any part of a house used for human habitation, whether or not the occupation is a letting. It is necessary also to remove any doubt that service of a copy of a demolition order—not the original order—will be valid compliance with the existing statutory provisions.

Housing authorities have power to extinguish public right-of-ways and easements in certain circumstances. The power does not extend to the acquisition of lands which, for technical reasons, do not come within the definition of clearance areas or improvement areas. It is essential that the extended power be available to housing authorities and provision is made for this purpose.

I have now outlined the main principles and provisions of the Bill and I commend it for the consideration of the House.

When we analyse this Bill, we realise, in the first instance, that it is a Bill to facilitate people to repair their houses or to acquire second-hand houses. That is really what it boils down to. In other words, we have reached the stage at which we are satisfied that we have practically ended our building programme and, as the Minister pointed out yesterday, fewer houses were built in 1956 than were built in former years and still fewer in 1957 and fewer again in 1958. I am glad Deputy Briscoe is here to note that. I am not responsible for the building of fewer houses in 1958 than were built in 1957.

I hope the Deputy will be here when I am answering him.

We are glad to see Deputy Briscoe here again.

May I take the opportunity of welcoming the Deputy back from his missions abroad? I am glad he has come back to look after the affairs of Dublin Corporation for a while.

I hope the Deputy will be here when I am speaking.

As I have said, we have now practically reached the end of our programme of building new houses and the Minister has rightly increased grants for the repair and purchase of second-hand houses. We welcome the provision of additional facilities because they are badly needed. Since the Government abolished the food subsidies—Deputy O'Malley may laugh—money has become scarcer and there has been less activity on the property market. We are dealing now with people in the lower-income group and people of the working classes who have to live on a weekly wage and who have been unable to carry out absolutely necessary repairs to their homes as a result of the slashing of their weekly pay packet. We welcome this belated effort on the part of the Government to try to restore, even in a small way, the amount in the pay packet and to bring it up to what it was when we were in office.

The Minister told us that those who wish to procure or acquire second-hand houses may now have access to the Local Loans Fund through the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act, both for the purpose of repairing houses which they propose to buy and also for the purpose of procuring loans for the purchase of houses. That is a very good thing, and I commend the Minister for having introduced it, but I think he will have to go a step further. He will have to make the acquisition of that loan more simple than it is to-day.

The Minister is catering for rural Ireland principally in this Bill. I pointed out yesterday that in rural Ireland it is almost impossible to acquire a loan under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act owing to the legal costs of the acquisition of such a loan. I pointed out yesterday that to procure a loan of £300 in certain cases costs almost £40 in legal costs. Again, I would appeal to the Minister, when considering this Bill on Committee Stage, to introduce a new section to simplify the method of procuring these loans and I would suggest to him that in rural Ireland the lodgment of the land certificate by way of equitable deposit with the local authority should suffice.

Let us consider the machinery through which one must go to procure a loan as visualised by this Bill. First of all, the prospective purchaser must find a second-hand house that is vacant. He must consult the vendor and find out what he wants for the house. He may enter into preliminary negotiations and they may agree on a figure of £2,000. If there is an auctioneer present, you can rest assured that he will inflate the price.

The same applies to the legal gentlemen.

We will come to the legal gentlemen afterwards. Having agreed on £2,000, say, as the purchase price of the house—it may be the market value of it; I am certain it is— then the borrower has to go back to the local authority and say to them: "I am buying a house. I want to know are you prepared to give me a loan for the purchase of it?" The local authority have to fix the market value. Very often they will not agree with the price arrived at between the vendor and the purchaser. It will be very difficult indeed for them to arrive at agreement and, unless some practical valuer is brought in, such as the local auctioneer, it will be impossible to put into effect the very good advantages which the Bill bestows on prospective purchasers.

Having eventually agreed on the price, the purchaser has then to go to the local authority's solicitor and satisfy him as to the title of the vendor. Vendors who have their property mortgaged are not anxious to disclose their title to the general public and it may be that the vendor would say: "I am prepared to convey to you. You can enter into whatever contract you wish with the local authority." In other words, it must be first of all conveyed or transferred to the purchaser and the charges transferred back to the local authority and the local authority's legal adviser satisfied. I am afraid most of the advantages of this Bill will go to the legal fraternity. It is quite true. I speak here as a Deputy, not as a solicitor.

The Deputy is addressing the wrong assembly.

I know that. If I think it is for the benefit of my constituents, even though it may hit my brethren in the legal profession, I think it is my duty to expose it here and I am doing it. I can assure the House that this Bill will benefit the legal fraternity and the unfortunate borrower will get very little benefit from it.

The legal fraternity would not come under the lower income group under this Bill.

If this House got its way, some of them would be housed in other places. The less we say about that, the better, at the moment. Speaking seriously, I think the Minister could do something to benefit the would-be purchaser by simplifying the conveyance or charge or mortgage which local authorities may require before they will advance moneys under the Bill.

The Minister states that he has given certain concessions by way of remission to rates to those who take advantage of the Bill by repairing their houses. It is surprising how much we think of those who have to borrow or secure State aid for the repair of their houses, but how little we think of the individual who has sufficient enterprise to put his own money into the repair of his house. If a man, even if he is a labourer, repairs his house, without seeking a State grant or a supplementary grant, his house is revalued forthwith and he has to pay, there and then, rates on the increased valuation. That is very unfair. Private enterprise is not encouraged in any way by that practice. The Minister should consider that matter so as to encourage the man who is sufficiently independent not to seek from the State or the local authority a loan or grant for the repair of his house. That would be a very good thing. I question very much if there will be any benefit to those who repair houses under this Bill.

I notice that it is to be spread over a ten years' period, one-tenth in the first year, one-fifth in the second year, and so on. If we total that up, we find there is one-third of a year's rates remission over the entire period of ten years.

One and one-third.

I think it is one-third.

Average.

I calculated it and I thought it was one-third. Perhaps Deputy O'Malley would check it. However, I think we should have gone back to the system of the old Cumann na nGaedheal Government whereby it was spread over a period of 20 years.

God forgive you.

The Minister says: "God forgive you." The unfortunate householder might not say that. I know the people of the Gaeltacht who have 21 years remission are very glad to take advantage of it, and the Minister should consider that, too.

The grants then were £40.

£40 was a lot then.

That is so, and even to-day £40 is a lot to the man down the country who wants to repair his house. I do not think the Minister will confer on builders and repairers of houses the benefit which he thinks he will confer on them. If he intends to graduate the scheme as he has suggested, he could have gone back to the old system of spreading it over a period of 20 years.

The Minister has referred to some of the local authorities who did not implement the housing grants—I believe there are some of them—and he requested them to review the position. He could go a little further and compel them to implement that scheme by a simple section in this Bill. He points out, and rightly so, how they could benefit by paying supplementary grants, and I think he should consider requesting those local authorities to do that.

No reference was made by the Minister to houses which are let by local authorities at uneconomic rents, houses which are let at very nominal rents, having had no increase down through the years, but in respect of which cost of repairs is mounting year after year and becoming a burden on the rates. I remember endeavouring to persuade local authorities to sell these houses for a nominal consideration to the tenants, but for some reason or other my suggestion was not adopted. The Minister should go further and if the local authorities will not sell them he should make the tenants a present of them.

I know tenants who pay 2/6 a week rent for local authority houses on which the annual outgoings for repairs, and so on, are somewhere in the neighbourhood of £13 to £15. That is bad business. If the local authorities cannot persuade the tenant to become a tenant purchaser, they should make a present of the house to him. If the local authorities want to vest these houses in the tenants they must, first of all, put them into a state of repair and they must have the consent of the tenants beforehand that the houses have been put into a state of repair. If the Minister is to give such tenant purchasers a grant for the repair of their houses and a loan to purchase, he should compel these people to become tenant purchasers, then abolish uneconomic rents and to remove that annual blister from the taxpayer of carrying out repairs to houses of this type.

There is very little in the way of repairs done on that type of house.

We have cases where they are costing the local authority between £12 and £15 a year and the rent is 2/6, and if the Deputy inquires in the neighbouring county, he will find there are a number of houses in the town of Arklow at a rent much less than the amount expended on annual repairs to the house by the local authority.

How many times in the lifetime of the house is it repaired?

Very often, because when a tenant finds that somebody else is going to carry this blister for him, he will not give the house the same attention as he would give it, if he were the owner of it.

I welcome the Bill and I am very glad the Minister has seen fit to increase grants for the repair of houses. I hope it will encourage people to repair their houses. I hope also that the local authorities will be encouraged to demolish slum buildings, have demolition orders carried out, clear these unsightly areas and rebuild on them. If the Minister succeeds in doing that, he will be doing a lot of good, because, as I said years ago, we are now nearing the end of our housing programme, particularly with regard to new houses and we should taper off instead of having a complete stop some fine day.

Is the Deputy speaking about Donegal?

I am speaking about the City of Dublin as well as Donegal. Fewer houses were built last year than were built the year before. I expected to see a boom in the building trade when my colleague, the Minister, took over. I remember that one of the first statements he made was that all the taps would be turned on. I do not know where the water has been flowing, unless it is down the sewers, because there is certainly no sign of it outside. I remember Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Larkin howling about the slump in the building trade. I have not seen any revival in the building trade since the Government took over.

It is very hard to revive a corpse.

Perhaps Deputy Briscoe will tell us that when he was abroad, things were going on fine here. Let him consult the two Independent Deputies from the City of Dublin. They will tell him whether there has been any "gee-up" in the building trade. That slump will continue, unfortunately, and I am very glad the Minister now recommends to Dublin Corporation what I recommended to them, that they should concentrate on building flats in the centre of the city and demolish unsightly dwellings wherever they exist. In that way they would be doing something to house the people in the slums.

One notable thing about housing legislation since this Dáil was established is that each Housing Bill seems to be a little more progressive than the last. That, in itself, is a tribute to various Governments and indeed to various Ministers for Local Government. I think we can say of this Bill that it sets out to improve the facilities for house-building and house repairs. While I, with Deputy O'Donnell, welcome the Bill, I am a little dubious as to what results it will achieve and as to what is the real intention in the Minister's mind—or, should I say, in the mind of the Government?

Deputy O'Donnell wound up his speech with some remarks about the housing slump which we have known over the past two years. I have heard conflicting and confusing views on the house-building industry. I heard a lot of airy-fairy talk about tapering off the work. The unfortunate thing about house-building over the past ten years is that while we have had two or three slumps there was never any tapering off. The building workers were just given their notice that house building would be stopped to a very large extent and they had to take the emigrant ship. I must confess that that happened in the time of the inter-Party Government and more so in the period of office of this Government.

My fear about this Bill is that it will be given to us in substitution for the revival which is necessary in the building of houses. The Minister has available to him, as we had, what was described, I think, as a census of houses required in the urban and rural areas. That census was pure bunkum. The 1947 census was a sham and a fraud thrown on the Department of Local Government by the majority of the local authorities and it meant nothing. There was a recent census, as I think the Minister told me in reply to a question. I have my doubts as to whether that represents the true position as far as our housing needs are concerned.

Thare are two important features to be rememebered in connection with housing. The first is the provision of dwellings for people and families. The second, and equally important, is the provision of employment for men who, over the past ten or 12 years, believed they would have reasonable security in the building of houses in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and in the provincial towns and rural areas. Suddenly we, the Parliament of this country, told these men we would cut off a considerable junk of this industry. The tragedy is that they have to leave their country and seek employment in Great Britain. I do not blame the present Minister entirely; we all have a share in that sort of behaviour.

One of the important things in the house-building industry is that it provides the means for keeping Irishmen at home until we can put them to work in some other industry. This also concerns those engaged on roads and different types of local authority works. The duty of the Government is to provide work on house-building and road-making until these people can engage in the industry which all of us promised and for which the Government say they have plans for the near future.

I suspect there will be a further curtailment of house-building. The Minister has said, and I think the Taoiseach has said over the past 18 months, that if money is needed for housing the Government will provide it. I have heard that statement before. It might be true. The officials in the Department of Local Government are blamed for many things. As distinct from every other Department, public representatives and the public generally divide the Department into two—the Minister and the officials. Some of them pretend the poor Minister does not know what is going on, that he is being bamboozled by the officials. In this case of the availability of money, I suspect the Minister has said: "We can say this sort of thing to the local authorities but there are other methods by which we can effectively prevent local authorities from building houses." The Minister may say that that is my bad mind. The evidence is there in the correspondence which local authorities are receiving from week to week and from month to month.

You can hold up the building of 50 houses, say, by a letter every month over a particular period. There may be a query about the colour of the roof, the size of the window-sill or the design of the chimney. I believe these delays are designed merely to conserve money in a particular financial year and to prevent local authorities from building houses.

I feel that this Bill will be a help to the house-building industry and will not be in substitution for the building we have had over the past three, four, five, or, shall I say, ten years. If the Minister really wants to get houses built or to cut costs, I suggest that there should be much more consultation at local level. He knows, and members of county councils and other public authorities know, there is too much of a distance between the local councils and the Custom House. I do not blame the officials or the Minister for that; it has been the tradition and practice down the years.

House-building, as between the Custom House and the local authorities, has been done by letter, apart from periodic visits by certain inspectors. They may see the town clerks, the county managers and the county architects. In my opinion, much more consultation is needed to ensure that houses will be built and will be cheap.

I got a suggestion from a colleague from County Wexford to-day which I shall now give to the Minister. It is that in a scheme of, say, from ten to 50 houses as you will have in a provincial town and especially in the cities —there should be consultation between a representative from the Department of Local Government, the local authority, the builders providers and, above all, the workers. If you have that type of consultation, I believe you will get much more co-operation from the parties I have mentioned. Above all, you will get much more co-operation from the workers, as represented by the trade unions.

The workers claim quite a considerable amount of the cost of building a house but they are never consulted. The architect may be fully qualified and the engineer may know all about his profession but the probability is that they are not able to saw a piece of timber or knock in a nail with a hammer. All of us know from our Party meetings—whether Fianna Fáil, Labour or Fine Gael—that when we come to discuss housing we get the carpenters, plumbers, masons and builders' labourers who, though they may perhaps do foolish things on other occasions, can suggest useful ways and means by which work can be shortened and cheapened.

The Minister would make a tremendous impression on house-building if he initiated that type of survey. It would not be new but it would be new inasmuch as, to my knowledge, it has not been practised for about ten years since the late Deputy T.J. Murphy was Minister for Local Government He tried to establish in my county—I must say unsuccessfully, due to the non-co-operation of certain persons—a consultative council where the workers would be present and where the officials and the professional men of the local authority would consult with one another on how best to get the houses finished. These are my general remarks on housing. I hope to have a little more to say on the Estimate.

I now come to certain points in the Bill. I think it is a good Bill. It does not take away anything from house-building either for the local authority, the private builder, the would-be builder, the house repairer or purchaser. The increase in the reconstruction grants in respect of three-four-and five-roomed houses is, one might say, pretty reasonable. Here again, there is a snag and I think every Deputy has met this difficulty. These grants are purely theoretical. It is in the administration of the grants that you will see the real effect of the section in question. Apparently the amount payable is based on the price for which the work should be done.

Whose opinion is invoked on the price that should be charged for the work done, I do not know. He may be an engineer of the local authority or in the Custom House; I do not know. However, they say the work should have been done for, say £X, £Y, or £Z and pay the grant on that estimate. The actual cost of construction or repair can well be ascertained. The cost of any material can be obtained from the builders providers. Any normal foreman or professional engineer can well determine the average number of hours taken to complete a job. As far as I know, as I said before, the figures are purely hypothetical and certainly are not to the advantage of the applicant for the repair and reconstruction grant. There is an improvement in the grants for the installation of water supplies and sewerage facilities. I think they could be regarded as pretty generous in the rural areas, but may I make a plea to the Minister for a grant of some sort, however small, for those in the urban areas, or in city areas, who have occasion to provide sewerage and water supplies where there is not a main water supply and a main sewerage. Many people have very great difficulty in doing that sort of work. It is pretty expensive, especially in the city area, and I think the Minister could well afford to pay some sort of grant for such people. I say "well afford", because I do not think he is going to get many cases in 1958 in which there are no water or sewerage facilities in urban or city areas.

Section 13, as far as I can see, authorises housing authorities to lend money for the reconstruction of a house. The loan can be given to the extent of 75 per cent. of the market value of the house. That is a bit high for such a loan. It is for reconstruction and repair and it is not as if one were actually buying the house. Seventy-five per cent. seems to be rather high, but perhaps the Minister will have an explanation for it. Another objectionable feature of the Bill is that when the loan is approved, the house is to be vested in the local authority. There could be some other arrangement whereby there would not be any necessity to vest in the local authority. The man who owns his house and has to have recourse to the Government for a loan will not be so quick to do so when he realises that when he gets the loan, the house which is his property, and which has been the property of his family for 60 or 70 years, is now to be vested in the local authority.

Section 15 appears to authorise an interest subsidy to local authorities on money borrowed after 1948. I suppose it would be stupid to ask the Minister if there are to be retrospective payments. I think he made some general remarks and said that it did not affect the existing financial arrangements with regard to loan charges, but he should make it clear, and if necessary make it clear in the Bill. I welcome, as I think any person who builds a new house will, the graduated scale for the payment of rates over ten years. Even though I think that over a period of ten years, the occupier would pay more than he would under the present system, it is a good thing. I have an example here of a house upon which the rates would be £21. Under the present system, his rates amount to £21 and the total payable would be £91. Under the new system, as proposed here, the total would be £94 6s. I suppose with the new arrangement one should not complain about the extra £3 6s. 0d., but it is only right that it should be pointed out that, while the new system is attractive in itself, there will be a slight amount of extra money paid to the local authority.

I welcome this Bill and I welcome it principally as a departure from the cry of the Department of Local Government and of other Departments, for a number of years, that everything should be new—the new hospital, the new house, the new this and the new that. This is a departure and I think the first instance I saw of it was on one occasion when Deputy O'Donnell, as Minister, was in Bandon and he pointed out that a number of houses there would be better, if they were reconstructed, than the new ones which he was opening that day.

I would ask the Minister to incorporate in this Bill something further in connection with local authorities, that is, that in future when a new tenant signs his agreement for a new house, he should also sign a purchase agreement. I agree with Deputy O'Donnell in connection with what he said about the unbelievable burden that is now being thrown on local authorities by repairs to houses let at a very low rent. I have seen a labourer's cottage for which the rent was 1/- a week, cost £160 to repair. You would be a long time getting that back. Those people naturally will not purchase.

I do not know what frame of mind the Department of Local Government are in. I freely admit that we have the same dilly-dallying with regard to houses now as we had when Deputy O'Donnell was Minister. It is very hard to break a team off a bad habit and a bad habit has been instilled in the Department of Local Government of endeavouring to find reasons for delay.

The Minister is responsible for the policy of the Department.

I am saying that the bad habit in the team that he has in his advisers, of holding up housing schemes, is very hard to eradicate. I should like to know from the Minister if the ceiling for land valuation, in connection with the reconstruction of houses, is now abolished. It is a pretty important matter for the constituency I have the honour of representing, where a man with 20 statute acres was above the limit for reconstruction grants in previous years. If it is abolished, thank God for that anyway, but it was very late coming.

I do not agree with what was said here about being near the end of the housing drive. I can see housing schemes going on year after year for the next 20 years, and I think that even after 20 years, you will not have sufficient houses, and that is apart from the cities, in purely rural communities. Anybody who thinks otherwise is making a big mistake. I heard Deputy O'Donnell say it would pay to give away the houses for nothing. I wonder did he ever get a look at any of the purchase schemes sanctioned by the Department? I hope to produce a few gems on the Estimate.

I shall give an instance of what happens. I shall take two schemes of houses, side by side. One happens to be in the urban area; the other in the rural area. The houses were opened on the one day by Deputy Smith when Minister for Local Government. All the houses have the same amenities and the rent is 11/- per week. The amount sanctioned for the purchase scheme in the rural area was 9/- per week, and the amount sanctioned for the urban area, 33/2 per week. I should like the Minister to investigate who was the financial genius in his Department who sanctioned a scheme for increasing the rent on purchase from 11/-a week to 33/2?

I remember when we came in here as young, foolish idealists, one of the first Bills we were proud to introduce here was a Bill to make the labourer as safe in his own house as the farmer in his farm. But now we get officials of the Department rendering that unworkable. Here is a man with a rent of 11/-a week, having his repairs done by the local authority, and if he wishes to become the owner of his own house, according to the schemes sanctioned by the Minister he has to do his own repairs and pay 33/2 a week rent. I hope to hand the documents to the Minister and let him examine them himself.

I have the case of another scheme 45 years old. We all know what kind of house that is. The rent was 2/9 a week and, on the purchase scheme sanctioned by the Department, the rent was raised to 37/6 a week. One of the excuses given to me was that the Minister has refused to continue to pay the loan charges on purchase. I should like to have that investigated by the Minister. However, that is a matter for the Estimate. I came up specially for the Estimate but it did not come off. I shall have an opportunity later. I shall produce every document in the House.

As far as the Bill is concerned, I am glad to see the question of reconstruction dealt with. I wonder if the question I asked the Minister a while ago also applies to the local authority? Is the local authority entitled to put a ceiling on valuation in regard to reconstruction? I have seen a case of a man with a wife and six children on a 25-acre holding whose valuation was £45. He was refused a grant from the local authority on it. I should like to know how he would compare to-day with an agricultural labourer. I would say he is worse off.

As far as the Bill goes, it is a good Bill. It is an improvement in that it shows a change of mind on the part of the Department, principally in regard to new houses. We shall have a lot to say in regard to new houses on the Estimate. I have found that, although it might cost a bit to repair an old house, when you have it repaired, you have a house but you can never repair some of the things built by local authorities in the past ten years, apparently inspected, passed and sanctioned by the architects and inspectors of the local authority and by the architects and inspectors of the Department. I have seen bills for the repair of labourers' cottages not seven years old amounting to £50, £60, and in some cases, £80, due to faulty workmanship. I have seen floors in labourers' cottages quite rotten after five years. I wonder who passed the timber or what Local Government inspector came down and sanctioned the payment? Could we get back on the architect responsible for it, who was damn well paid?

There are just a few points I should like to make in connection with the Bill. Like Deputy O'Donnell, I welcome any effort made in connection with this problem of housing. I should like to say at the outset that I hope this Minister, or some Minister in the near future, will tackle the question of endeavouring to codify housing legislation. It is becoming increasingly difficult for anyone to follow just what is in the Housing Acts and what is not. Practically every year there is a new Housing Bill, and that Bill amends in some way or other the one that went before or the one that went before that again. As this question of housing is one which vitally affects everyone in the country, it would be well worth the attention of the Minister's Department to set about bringing the whole housing legislation up to date in one codifying Act.

What the position may be in regard to the tapering off of the housing drive because of requirements being satisfied I do not know; but whatever about new housing, there is no doubt at all that there is a very large field for improvement in this question of dealing with old houses. In this Bill, the Minister and his Department are wise in dealing again with the question of repair and improvement grants in respect of old houses. This is not a new thing. It is already there, I think, in the 1952 Act and in Section 12 of the 1954 Act. However, the Minister, in introducing this Bill, has broadened out the provisions in Section 12 of the 1954 Act.

I understand the 1954 Act limited repair and improvement grants to houses suitable for occupation by members of the working class. I forget the precise definition. In this Bill, the Minister sets about extending that definition and enabling these grants to be made in cases where he considers it essential for the provision of a dwelling or for making a dwelling habitable. That is an advance which is to be welcomed.

I hope I am not being too suspicious when I say it is a pity the Minister has included a provision which may entirely vitiate that advance. In Section 11, where the old provisions of Section 12 of the 1954 Act are being amended, sub-section (3) continues and says:—

"Notwithstanding the amendment effected by sub-section (2) of this section, grants by a housing authority under sub-section (3) of Section 12 of the Act of 1954 may, if the authority think fit"—

He is taking it out of his hands now and it is to be a matter for the local authority—

"be confined to—

(a) persons of such class or classes, or

(b) persons executing works on houses of such type or types,

as may be determined by the authority."

In other words, the Minister says he is now doing away with the limitation imposed in 1954 and is making the grants available in respect of houses certified by the housing authority—or, on appeal, by the Minister—to be suitable for repair and improvement, where the Minister is satisfied that the works are essential for the purpose of providing suitable housing accommodation. He says that that is going in, to replace the limitation existing under Section 12 of the 1954 Act.

In fact, it is not doing that, because in the self-same Section 11, the Minister says: "Notwithstanding that I am broadening out the definition, notwithstanding that I am removing the limitation, lifting the restrictions, nevertheless, if a housing authority think fit they may re-impose these limitations; no matter what the Dáil or the Seanad may think, no matter how favourably they may receive my proposals in Section 11, the housing authority may, if they think fit, restrict the grants to classes either of houses or of persons as was done previously."

As the authority may determine.

As they may think fit.

As distinct from what was previously done.

Admittedly there is discretion. I am not fencing about that. All I am saying is that this section contains this test and provision which may entirely vitiate the work which the Minister is trying to do. I hope it will not; I hope no local authority will think fit to go back to the narrow provision which existed under section 12 of the 1954 Act. It is discretionary, but the power is being given to local authorities to go back to that. That is why I say the section contains within itself provisions for destroying the advance—I am quite sincere in calling it an advance which could be made if sub-section (3) here were deleted. I hope it is the intention to discourage local authorities from placing any restrictive limitation of that kind.

I believe there is a very large field for operations in connection with old houses, particularly in the City of Dublin. I can speak only for the city, but I assume the same is true of Cork City and a number of big towns. The operation of legislation of this kind on the older houses should have a definite effect on the employment situation and, therefore, from that point of view alone, if one were to disregard entirely the necessity for maintaining the older type of house and utilising them to provide suitable housing accommodation even if one were to disregard that important and even vital aspect of the situation—from the employment point of view alone, it would be worth encouraging the operation of this section.

I appeal to the Minister to consider before the Committee Stage—and I think it could be done in conjunction with this Bill—another aspect of the question of repairing and improving old houses. As I understand the position—and I have not had an opportunity of rereading in any detail the 1954 Housing Act recently; I intended to do so in connection with this matter but did not get the opportunity—my recollection of the position is that if a repair and improvement grant is made under Section 12 of the 1954 Act there is incorporated in the Act a guarantee that there will be no increase in valuation by virtue of the work done under that grant. I think I am correct in saying that that is the position. I assume that will obtain also under Section 11 of this Bill.

It seems to me that an anomaly is created here. If a person, by virtue of getting the assistance of a grant, repairs, improves and extends his dwelling, then at least for a period of seven years he has a statutory assurance that his rates will not be increased by virtue of that improvement. On the other hand, if a person, without relying on any State or local authority aid, out of his own pocket decides to repair and improve his house, that person is faced with an increase in rates immediately. He has no protection whatever and his rates will go up.

I would appeal to the Minister, in relation to this Bill, to consider extending the provisions in favour of the person who is prepared to carry out repair and improvement work to his own house without having recourse to a State or local authority grant. That person should have at least the same consideration from the Legislature as the person who depends on a grant to carry out his repairs. The same provision should apply to him so that if, out of his own pocket and at his own expense, he carries out the improvements he would get the same kind of assurance that his rates will not be increased. If the Minister adopted the point of view which I am urging on him in this regard, it would give very great impetus to work of this nature in the City of Dublin and throughout the country as a whole.

May I briefly refer to the sliding scale in respect of rates? Generally speaking, I think the idea is good, even if it is not new, but the cash value of the operation of this system as against the two-thirds remission for a period of seven years—which is niggardly—represents no great gain to those concerned. I would urge, as Deputy O'Donnell did, that the Minister should go a little further because if he did he would do something that would be appreciated, something worthwhile. If he had a sliding scale over 20 years rather than ten it would be something worthwhile. While the present ten-years' scale is not a great improvement at least it has the advantage that the increase comes gradually rather than having a sharp increase at the end of the ten years.

There may be problems in the application of the small dwellings acquisition procedure to older houses, houses which are described in the Bill, I think, as "houses previously occupied". The idea is one which is certainly worth encouraging but its success or failure will depend almost entirely on how the Bill is operated by local authorities. There can be difficulties in regard to the valuing of these—I am calling them—old houses, but they need not necessarily be old. The Bill provides that the local authority, when arriving at the market value, will also take into account stamp duty, legal expenses and so on, but whether or not the local authority will arrive at what I might call an auctioneer's valuation of the premises or some more restricted valuation I do not know. The success or failure of that provision will depend on how the local authority approaches that question.

Would there not be some indication of valuation from the rent paid by the occupant?

The Deputy will appreciate that it may happen that the house is being valued for the purpose of the purchase under the extension of Small Dwellings Acquisition Act and it may be a house that has never been rented.

The Deputy spoke of a second-hand house.

But it may not have been rented. I may have built the house ten years ago and occupied it myself and have it for sale now. The Deputy may want to buy it under the provisions of this Bill. There is no question of comparison of rents coming into it. There are a number of factors which would come into the auctioneer's valuation. The locality, type of construction and very often the particular builder who put it up—

Then there would be the original cost and depreciation.

——would be all matters which would influence the valuation for the ordinary purchaser. I do not know whether the local authority will be prepared to approach matters on that basis, if there are two houses side by side on the same road, one built by a particularly well-known builder whose work is well-valued and appreciated while the other is built possibly by an unknown builder. The work may be equally good but a purchaser coming along to buy one or other of the houses, if both are on offer, will be prepared to pay more for the work of the well-known established builder. That is a fact affecting the market value of that house. If the Deputy, or any Deputy, reads the advertisements in the newspapers he will see—I am not going to mention any names—in the case of houses offered for sale in the city the statement often made: "It is so-and-so built," naming the builder. The approach of various local authorities to these questions will be important.

I do not propose to say any more on the Bill. There are some matters which might be dealt with in Committee, but I would earnestly urge the Minister to consider between now and then the points that have been made, particularly regarding the sliding scale for rates remission and allowing an assurance of non-increasing rates to the person who carries out repairs or improvements to his own house without the assistance of a repair or improvement grant.

That is something about which the Deputy is under a complete misapprehension. There is such a provision in the Bill.

Perhaps the Minister would ask one of his housing officials to brief me on it some time?

Yes, certainly.

I believe this Bill will be an important and significant addition to the series of housing Acts which stem from the parent Act of 1932 which was the first serious effort made in our history to meet and defeat the housing problem. We should feel proud of the excellent housing legislation enacted over the years. In the main I think it compares more than favourably with any housing legislation in the neighbouring countries. In England they have nothing like our generous housing grants or indeed our loans and I think a great tribute is due to successive Governments and the local authorities who afford such generous grants and assistance by way of loans to those who want to build their own houses or reconstruct them.

The success or failure of this Bill will depend to a large extent on the cooperation of local authorities. Many local authorities feel that their commitments for housing grants over the last six or seven years are very high already. For example in our county we have borrowed £670,000 to pay housing grants and yet we have not cleared the payment of our housing grants up to September, 1957. We estimate that we shall require another £150,000 to bring the scheme up to the 1st April, 1958. In fact, we have had to suspend the scheme for one year in order to get a breathing spell.

The avowed aim of this Bill now before the House is to conserve the existing pool of houses, many of which have been allowed to fall into disrepair for different reasons, and to encourage house owners and tenants to repair, improve, and reconstruct their dwellings. There is a shift of emphasis from the new house to the old house and that is a commendable feature of the Bill. I believe if the emphasis had been shifted to the old house some 10 or 12 years ago many people would not have embarked on the costly experiment of building new houses. Rather, they would have tried to make do in many cases with the houses they had, but I suppose it is better late than never.

Another effect of this Bill, when it becomes law, will be to provide useful employment. It will, I believe, give a fillip to the building trade. Some Deputies referred to the big boom in building which we experienced here after the war years and which continued up to 1954. In my opinion that boom has now expired and there are many skilled building workers and semi-skilled workers who have been facing a lean time during the past few years. I believe this Bill will provide some of them with useful employment badly-needed.

In this Bill the Minister proposes to give increased grants and I think that shows he has adopted a realistic approach to the problem. In many cases the grants were rather niggardly and, though the increases now proposed are not very big, they will offer some encouragement to people who propose to reconstruct or repair their houses.

The Minister proposes in this Bill to obviate some of the cumbersome provisions that apply to grants under Section 12 of the 1954 Housing Act. He has taken a lot of the procedure away from local authorities, and rightly so, but I think he should go further and assume responsibility for certifying as to whether a house is at for repair and improvement. He has left the certification to local authorities and, for the life of me, I cannot see why his own housing inspectors could not visit a house after an application is made, and certify whether after reconstruction and repairs it will be fit for human habitation or not. The holding up of these grants in many cases was due to the failure of the local authorities to play their part, and my experience of Section 12 grants was that a long period elapsed before payment was made.

I would also ask the Minister to make it possible to pay the Section 12 grants by instalments, like the reconstruction grants. As the Minister is aware, work had to be completed and certified as completed by Local Government engineers before any payment was made. Why is it not possible for the Minister to adopt the same procedure adopted in regard to reconstruction grants and pay half the instalment when half the work has been carried out?

The Minister is providing grants of £75 for water and sewerage. I would urge him to make these grants available to unserviced labourers' cottages in urban areas. In my town we have many of these old cottages and the tenants of these county council cottages, non-vested cottages, would install water and sewerage, which the county council has failed to provide for them, if grants were made available from State funds. I believe the Minister should introduce a section to enable him to give grants to tenants of such cottages.

Another innovation in this Bill is the provision of loans to people to enable them to reconstruct their houses, but why has a local authority to be satisfied that a house, if reconstructed and repaired, is fit for human habitation? Can the Minister's own inspectors not certify that a house should be fit for human habitation after a certain amount of work is done? Surely the Minister's own housing inspectors, attached to his Department, can give the necessary certificate?

Some Deputies have referred to the difficulty of determining the market value of an old house in respect of which a loan under the Small Dwellings Acts may be obtained. In the Bill before the House last year there was a section which gave a right of appeal to the Commissioner for Valuations. If the Minister introduced a similar section into this Bill it would give great satisfaction to people who might feel they were not getting a fair deal from a local authority, people who might be led to believe that the local authority were not placing a fair market value on the house they proposed to reconstruct.

The rates remission feature of this Bill is also one that will be welcomed. Heretofore, when the full impact of rates fell on a tenant after seven years he was rather hurt and embarrassed, as some Deputies described it, but now he is being put into the water little by little, until he is completely covered after ten years, and he may be cushioned against the shock in that way.

I would ask the Minister to address himself to the vexatious question of family income which has caused much confusion to local authorities when supplementary grants are allocated. I have seen many anomalies. In my own constituency I saw where a farmer with a £10 5/- poor law valuation and family income of £176 got a 50 per cent. grant, while another farmer with a £12 10/- valuation and a family income of £206 per annum got a 100 per cent. supplementary grant.

These figures are extraordinary but, unfortunately they are true because in the first instance the local authority deemed that the farmer derived his income mainly from a source other than farming, so that the £10 5/- was equated, £1 with £6 13/-, bringing his income from all sources up to £350 a year which entitled him to a 50 per cent. grant. The farmer with the £12 10/- valuation and the £206 income was deemed to have derived his livelihood mainly from farming so his income of £206 was ignored and the applicant qualified for a 100 per cent. grant. The Minister should, I think, in this Bill endeavour to clear up anomalies of this kind which are very difficult to explain to farmers down the country. When one man sees another on a higher income and valuation getting a bigger grant, he wonders—and rightly so—what kind of Acts are passed by Dáil Éireann.

The Minister has increased the floor area to over 1,400 sq. ft. for houses to qualify for reconstruction grants. He could do likewise with new houses and bring them up from 1,400 sq. ft. to 1,500 sq. ft. I have been told that in the Bill before the Dáil the specific procedure for labourers' cottages will be abolished. That procedure was availed of to a large extent in County Galway. Let us say that farmer Mr. A is approached by a neighbour Mr. B, and asked to give a site for a cottage. He knows the neighbour and says: "I will give the site to the county council to provide a cottage for you." In due course, the site is purchased by the local authority and the cottage is erected and not advertised because the cottage was earmarked for the person to whom the farmer gave the site. I hope that there is no section in this Bill that will wipe out that procedure and I should like an assurance from the Minister that that procedure will not be interfered with.

There is, too, in the Bill a very controversial section dealing with labourers' cottages, allowing for the dual occupancy of labourers' cottages, where two families can live under the one roof. I do not think that will prove very successful, because, in the first place, to have two families under the one roof in a cottage will certainly cause friction. Secondly, it will, to my mind, rule out the possibility of that cottage ever becoming vested. You cannot vest it in two people.

The Minister has introduced another innovation whereby a loan can be got in the case of a house of previous occupancy. I believe that will drive up the value of second-hand houses, as they have been called, all over the countryside. You will have would-be purchasers competing against one another to buy second-hand or old houses. While there is a lot to be said in favour of it, I have great doubts as to whether it will work.

In no part of this Bill do I see any reference to the vesting of cottages. I would ask the Minister to take this opportunity of doing something to simplify the procedure with regard to the vesting of cottages, but, above all, I would ask him to introduce some section which will make it possible for the local authority to recover possession of a vested cottage. Every Deputy from a rural area knows that there are numbers of vested cottages all over the country the owners of which have departed for regions unknown outside the jurisdiction of the courts. These cottages are lying unoccupied. In my own area, there must be three or four such cottages. I was told by a Deputy to-night that in the County Westmeath there are 43 of them. Nobody knows where the owners have gone. These cottages are allowed to fall into disrepair and the local authority cannot do anything about them under existing legislation. The Minister might feel it right and proper to do something about that matter, now that he has the chance in the new Housing Bill.

Under Section 14 of the 1954 Housing Act a term of 15 years had to elapse, under normal circumstances, before a second reconstruction grant could be paid. If a reconstruction grant was previously paid, in the case of the proposed replacement of a roof by a roof of slate or tiles a period of ten years had to elapse. The Minister might consider reducing that limit of 15 to ten years, and the ten-year limit to one of seven years. If he does not, he will defeat one of the aims of the Bill, that is, to encourage the preservation of old houses.

I would also ask him to indicate at some stage what the supplementary grants will be, whether the grants will be graded under £12 10s. valuation, £12 10s. to £20 or £20 to £27 or whatever it will be. There is some confusion about that at present and it might be well to clear the air about that matter.

This is an important Bill. It is one which will be appreciated very much in rural Ireland. It will do a lot of good.

First of all, I should like to say that this Bill, like previous Housing Bills, might be described as a stepping stone. The problem of housing has been for many years of such great magnitude that no Minister, no matter how well intentioned, no matter how capable and no matter what Government he represented, was able at any time to bring into the House a Bill, which would deal with all the requirements. Consequently, in successive years, fairly steady progress has been made.

I was particularly interested in the statement of the Minister both in the explanatory memorandum and in his speech here to-day. He said that the Bill had four main purposes. The first purpose which he indicated is one which will appeal to every Deputy and particularly to the Deputies from the cities and the major towns, that is, the object of eradicating the remaining blocks of unfit houses. I am not familiar with the position in this regard in cities like Cork, Limerick, Waterford. I have seen occasional references to the very bad housing conditions in those cities. Certainly, I, like other Deputies representing the City of Dublin constituencies, particularly those representing the more central areas, am only too familiar with the urgent necessity of continuing to attack the problem in a sharper manner. Of course, the problem is one which the Minister has indicated he wants to deal with not only in principle but in Section 20 of the Bill he indicates that he is desirous of securing the assistance of the local authorities concerned by making certain changes in the legislation which will tend to ease the problem of acquiring and developing places in the central city areas for flat development.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10th July, 1958.
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