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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Jul 1958

Vol. 170 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £114,030 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Paymaster-General's office.

I should like to refer to what I might call an impromptu debate on inflation and deflation which we had at the end of the Finance Bill. I feel we did not deal very adequately with the question at the time and I should like to elaborate a little on it now. Inflation and deflation are not only of interest to us but are a very vital question in most European countries and, I suppose, in every country outside Europe, too. I gave an "off-the-cuff" reply to Deputy Sweetman last week and I might, perhaps, supplement it briefly now by indicating how I regard the present state of the economy and the prospects for the future.

There was a significant recovery in 1957. Gross national product regained the ground lost in 1956. This improvement was due to increased agricultural production. In the transportable goods industries output over the whole year was slightly less than in 1956 but the last quarter showed a sharp rise of over 8 per cent. above the corresponding quarter of 1956. The fall in 1956 in the volume of output per person employed was partly made good in 1957. Towards the end of the year unemployment began to decrease relative to the corresponding period of 1956.

The increase in the national income in 1957 went into savings and not into consumption. Provided it is maintained, this increase in savings will provide the basis for a higher level of productive home investment.

On the whole, economic trends in 1957 were in the right direction. There still exist, of course, the problems of a high level of unemployment and an insufficiency of productive investment. When introducing the Budget in April last I said that the primary aim of policy must be to secure as much productive employment as possible while at the same time restraining inflationary forces so as to avoid balance of payments difficulties. This remains our policy. Its achievement depends on maintaining the improvement in production and the higher level of savings which were gratifying features of 1957.

The returns available for the present year do not disclose any strong inflationary or deflationary influences at work in the economy. The trade figures provide the best immediate indication. As expected, imports have increased, but this has been offset to some extent by a further expansion of exports and by an improvement in the terms of trade. Provided the gap does not widen, external payments this year should not be far from balance. There seems little prospect, however, of any surplus. Last year's £9,000,000, following an unbroken series of deficits since 1946, was probably an isolated experience. In any case, our policy is to avoid deficits rather than to build up surpluses—we want all our savings to be turned into productive home capital.

The increase of £6.2 million in the import excess in the first six months of the year is not, of itself, alarming. The position needs to be carefully watched but unemployment is too high to warrant our taking any restrictive measures before it is clear beyond doubt that they are essential to stop a drain on our reserves. As far as I can judge, we have at the moment neither inflation nor deflation. What we have to do is to preserve that balance, at the same time increasing our production, and maintaining our savings so as to provide the capital necessary to finance the greater productive investment we require to raise our living standards permanently.

In my Budget speech I stressed the need for a general review of investment policy to ensure that our development resources would be applied to immediately productive purposes to the greatest extent possible. I mentioned that a study was being prepared in my Department, with the co-operation of other Government Departments and State bodies, as to how best our economic deficiencies might be remedied and our development opportunities realised. I have also since then received a report from the Capital Investment Advisory Committee dealing with the principles on which future development should be based. Our development resources and problems were discussed generally with a representative of the World Bank who visited Dublin recently. I am confident that the advice received from these various sources will prove of great assistance in the consideration of future policy.

The Minister is wise not to rely on the statement he made at the end of the Finance Bill. He is wise to have sought the opportunity to-day to expand his remarks on that occasion, or it might be more accurate to say that the Minister is wise to make a more coherent comment on our economic position. The debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate will start tomorrow and on that Estimate we shall have an opportunity of discussing our economic position. Therefore I do not propose to anticipate that discussion now except to say that in so far as there is a balance, to which the Minister has referred, between inflation and deflation, it is a balance that has been brought about the worst possible way. It is a balance that has been brought about by an inflation of current expenditure and a deflation of capital expenditure.

It is because the one offsets the other that we have the position to which the Minister referred. That can never show any lasting economic progress. On the contrary, it must run down our rate of economic progress rather than accelerate it. We must remember too, that at the present moment we are in a period in which prices, in so far as imports to this country are concerned, are decreasing and have decreased enormously. The economic series issued at the beginning of this month shows that they are down some 7 per cent. and at the same time as import prices have decreased some 7 per cent., in the last figures available, that is from April last year to April this year, we find that the cost of living has risen by over nine points.

Eleven points.

Eleven points now. It seems a strange commentary on a Government that got into office because they alleged, amongst other things, that under the previous Government the cost of living had risen unduly. In our time import prices were rising but the cost of living was remaining comparatively stable. In the term of this Government import prices are dropping week by week and month by month and yet prices are rising. We should have got a great deal of relief on that score, for example, from the enormous fall in shipping freight rates because our pattern is such that there is a small shipping distance for our exports and a long distance for our imports. In spite of that being the pattern we see, as I say, that our home prices are rising all the time.

To revert to what I was saying in connection with the capital and current expenditure, I was a little bit surprised by a statement which the Minister made in reply to a question to-day. He said that the capital Budget for this year would be amended by the passage of the Housing Bill. How much it is to be amended I do not know and as far as I could follow the Minister he said he did not know himself the extent to which that was so. Change there may bring up the amount of capital expenditure that is to be made this year. Whether it will bring it up over and above the amount by which our current incomes were inflated, as a result of the deliberate action of the Minister last year in his Budget, is another question; but we will have an opportunity of discussing that tomorrow on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

On this Estimate, I wish to refer to one specific matter which comes within its purview. I do not know whether there is a statutory obligation or not, but whether there is or not, the returns are published in Iris Oifigiúil every week of Receipts Into and Issues Out of the Exchequer. The pattern of that publication has been settled for a very long time and Deputies and others who are interested have been able, because of the publication, to follow the course of revenue and the course of expenditure. Apparently, some time during the last financial year, the Minister changed the pattern in relation to expenditure, without any public notification. As far as I could gather from him, the effect of the changes made in the Paymaster-General's accounting system is that this table which is published in Iris Oifigiúil, in so far as the issues are concerned, is of no value at all. The weekly Exchequer issues are not now carried in that return and the position now is that the sums come in only quarterly and that quarterly correct balances are included from the point of view of knowing how current expenditure runs.

I do not challenge the wisdom of the change which the Minister has made in the Paymaster-General's accounts. I do not know what change he has made, because he has not told the House or the country. I do say that the Minister was very wrong indeed to mislead those who read Iris Oifigiúil by making that change, without disclosing that the change had been made and that the figures published did not, therefore, produce a true reflection.

When I spoke here on the Vote on Account on the 5th March, I had the figures from Iris Oifigiúil compared; and the figures that were then available to everybody made it apparent that the position was a certain one between revenue and expenditure. The Minister did not, even on the Vote on Account, pay the House the courtesy of telling us that the figures published week by week, while they are, of course, correct figures, did not disclose the true position. I think that is reprehensible.

It was most unfortunate that Deputies here and people outside were misled in that way. We should avail ourselves of this opportunity to obtain from the Minister the fullest possible explanation of the changes he has made in the system of making issues from the Exchequer and we should also hear from him what proposals he has to ensure that, in the administration during the coming year of this return, it will bear a true reflection, week by week, of the situation, instead of reflecting it only at the end of each quarter, as is the position at the present time.

It does not matter so much, perhaps, in the June or September quarters. It certainly matters an awful lot in the last quarter of the year, when revenue is coming in heavily and when it is essential to balance the two, side by side, to get an appreciation of the situation at that time of the year and, particularly, before the Vote on Account. I do not understand—we have not been told and therefore I could not understand—what changes have been made. All that the Minister has said is that he has made changes and therefore the accounts cannot be compared.

It was not clear, from what the Minister said, what the Government's precise angle is on our balance of payments position, as revealed by the returns of the last six months. Looking at this matter objectively, and without any desire to make political capital out of it, one can see that the balance of payments, even putting the most favourable gloss on it, is still far from satisfactory. The increase in the deficit on the balance of trade is disquieting at this stage and it is particularly disquieting because one never knows how long high prices are likely to last on the British market for our exportable agricultural surplus.

The figures revealed in the first six months offer grounds for serious reflection. I am not suggesting by that remark that the Government should fly in the direction either of additional levies or of restrictions on imports; but the basic fact remains that the essential thing to do is to be able to pay for our imports. No Government, no matter what its political complexion, can look on with complacency at a situation developing in which we are compelled to pay for an excess of imports by running down sterling assets. I am not one of those who regard external assets as sacred assets which cannot be touched under any circumstances. I prefer to see our external assets repatriated here for use in the form of capital goods, in the form of machinery or tools of production, in a form which would give a productive return for the repatriation of those assets.

I would be no party to permitting deliberately a situation to develop whereby our external assets were run down for the purpose of purchasing luxury and non-essential articles. No Government can with equanimity contemplate the continuance of a situation in which our external assets are run down for the purpose of buying luxury and non-essential goods. Notwithstanding the favourable trend in our balance of payments in the past 12 months, I still think there is need for disciplined buying on the part of our people. There is necessity to realise the fact that we can pay for what we import only in either of two ways—by selling more goods to enable us to pay for what we buy or by running down our external assets.

While external assets could usefully be repatriated for use in this country, until such time as we reach that stage those external assets are valuable for the purpose of providing a buttress to enable us to pay for the raw materials which we must import, if we are to maintain and expand employment at home. The ultimate remedy for imbalance of payments is to endeavour to expand our production and our exports, so as to enable us to pay for the goods which we must import to maintain civilised living conditions and to provide reasonable amenities for our people. Until such time as somebody does that, it behoves any Government in office to take all necessary steps to ensure that our balance of payments does not get out of control, and that such steps as are necessary are taken, in order to ensure that the economy is sufficiently safeguarded so as to prevent a running down of our external assets in the purchase of non-essential and luxury goods, and even in the purchase of consumer goods which might be avoided.

So far as I gathered from the Minister's statement, it is the Government's intention to look at the situation in the light of what had been revealed in the past six months. I understood him to say that the Government were watching the position, but did not want to take any action in a restrictive way, lest the effect of doing so would be to increase unemployment. I appreciate that point of view, but some indication should be given on this Estimate, or during the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate, of what the Government have in mind, in respect of this situation, as revealed by the figures for the last six months.

This House will be in recess for probably three months and, in a matter of this kind, the people should be taken into the confidence of the Government. The people generally ought to learn that the most vital defence of the nation's economic position is to ensure a balance in its trading relations. The policy of the Government and of the people should not be different in that respect. The Government and the people ought to be at one in defending the nation's economic structure, and I would strongly urge the Government to take steps to bring the people into their confidence, so that the people may appreciate the trading trends, and be aware of the steps which it may be necessary to take in order to bring our balance of payments into equilibrium.

As I said, the ideal solution is more production and greater exports. When one looks at the volume of our physical imports and the volume of our physical exports, we see a very substantial gap, one which is bridged only by the fact that we get invisible exports in the form of dividends, in the form of emigrants' remittances, in the form of pensions and in the form of tourist traffic. While that is all highly desirable and valuable, from the point of view of correcting our trading accounts, the ideal situation would be not to have to reply on the perhaps somewhat precarious income from these sources, but to be able to match our physical imports with our physical exports.

I hope that during the debate on the Taoiseach's Estimate to-morrow the Government will be able to place us in the picture as to their intentions, if this general trend is manifested for the remainder of the year, or if they should find the British market, for one reason or another, is not capable of absorbing all the agricultural products we have to export, or if the British market cannot pay in 1958 the prices which were paid for our cattle exports in 1957.

Any change on the agricultural front could have a serious result and could produce a serious dislocation in our balance of payments, as far as the cattle trade is concerned, and we ought to know generally what is the Government's plan. We would like to know what the Government's plan is, if our cattle exports for this year do not fetch in gross income what they fetched in 1957.

Anybody who has read the papers, as Deputy Sweetman said, has been struck in the past 12 months by the substantial fall in the commodity market. The prices of raw materials and freight rates have been falling very substantially during that period. There was a time when to transport a ton of coal from America cost as much as did the coal itself when bought in America, but that situation has completely changed. It is reckoned that anything from 15 per cent. to 20 per cent. of the world's shipping is tied up because owners cannot get satisfactory charter rates, and can get only charter rates which would involve operating their ships at a loss. The community does not seem to have got any benefit consequent upon the fall in commodity prices, in shipping rates, and in the cost of raw materials. Far from getting any benefit, the cost of living index to-day is 11 points higher than it was in February, 1957.

I think the Central Statistics Office might be asked to undertake an inquiry to ascertain what we might have reasonably expected in reduced prices as a result of the fall in freight rates on the cargoes which we import, and the reduced prices we could have expected following upon the decrease in the price of raw materials. Somebody is getting the difference between the prices of raw materials to-day and the prices 12 or 18 months ago. Somebody is getting the benefit of the fall in freight rates, but it is not the consuming public.

It is the Government. They are the people that skim the cream.

We might establish that by a certain process, but we ought to know what we could have expected, because decreases in the prices of raw materials, down through the ages, have meant reductions in wholesale and retail prices of commodities in countries which bought these raw materials. That process now seems to have been arrested and while freight rates and raw material prices are falling throughout the world, the public here are not getting any benefit from the reductions. We ought to know from the Minister, who is our economic guide in matters of this kind—and who some people might say is our economic Messiah—what we are entitled to expect, and if that expectation will be realised in the foreseeable future. I want to raise another point but I should like to know are the other Estimates being taken separately?

The usual rule is that they are taken together and Deputies may raise points on the various matters contained in them.

Nothing was said in commendation of them by the Minister. Normally, we get a recommendation that we should adopt these Estimates for a particular reason.

The Deputy knows this has been the practice over the years.

I think the Minister has curtailed that practice by giving us a recommendation for his Estimate this year which is a correction of what he said last week. If they are all to be taken together, I want to raise two points. In the Minister's Budget speech this year, he referred to a proposal which had been submitted to heads of Departments for a radical alteration in the present Civil Service structure, and said that he was confident substantial progress would be made in producing whatever reorganisation he had in mind, during the present fiscal year. I want to ascertain from the Minister how far this question of altering the Civil Service structure has gone, and whether the matter is at a stage at which the Minister could give us some picture as to what he has in mind, and when the House is likely to be able to see something emerge from the plans foreshadowed in the Minister's speech last year and underlined by him in his speech this year.

Is it intended to simplify the whole Civil Service structure, to reduce the number of grades, to carry out a process of assimilation of one grade, or more than one grade, with another grade and, generally, if the information is available now, I would ask him to give us some picture of what he has in mind in this alteration of the structure, to which he referred in his Budget speech last year and also this year?

I should also like to raise a question on the Estimate relating to superannuation and retired allowances. Within the past 15 months, there has been, as everybody knows, an increase in the cost of living index figure—in fact, an increase which has now brought the cost of living index figure to a higher level than it has ever reached. Many people who retired from the Civil Service, the Army, the police force and the service of the local authorities did so at a time when the cost of living was substantially less than it is to-day.

In so far as they had retired before 1950, they got an increase in that year to compensate for an increase in the cost of living between the time they retired and the year 1950. A further increase was granted to them, I think, in 1955. There has been no increase since, notwithstanding the fact that there has been a substantial rise in the cost of living since the last increase was granted. In fact, there has been a rise of 12 points in the index figure over the past 15 months.

While the Government did not inspire the recent national wage agreement, they at least recognised it was something that had to take place and that an adjustment upwards of wages was necessary because of the increase in the cost of living. People who have served the State, whether in the national or local services, have to live on pensions in the same way as those who work in the capacities vacated by those who have retired have to live. I think that in all equity there is a case for permitting the local authorities to grant increases to their employees where they feel that an increase is justified by a rise in prices and that the State, too, ought to recognise that, if it devalues money by permitting prices to rise, then it is morally obliged to increase the pensions which it has granted to those who have served it for a long number of years. I should like to ascertain from the Minister whether the Government contemplates any review of the pension increase legislation with a view to providing some compensation for those who retired on pensions which will buy very much less to-day than at the time they retired.

As long as we maintain our balance of trade, the question of savings and capital investment will be all right because if we maintain our balance of trade, any savings we have must go into capital. They do not go elsewhere. In 1957, we had a favourable balance of trade. As a result, we had a higher allocation in capital than for many years previously. I do not think what Deputy Sweetman, said is true about a sort of change over, more current expenditure and less capital. In any case, that can be ascertained only when our accounts come to be made up.

Yes. The Deputy asked what did I mean when I referred in reply to a question to-day to more capital being required for housing. I just think that, as a result of the Housing Bill where the facilities for borrowing are more favourable in the repair of existing houses and also in the purchase of secondhand houses, more money may be required for that purpose. For that reason, I thought the amount required in the housing field might be higher than last year. I do not know what that may amount to.

The figures in regard to this year's balance of trade are not so good. I must say that I never thought they would be. I do not think I lost any opportunity last year, when speaking on this question, of saying that I did not expect that for the first quarter of 1958 the figures would be as good as the figures in respect of the first quarter of 1957. I pointed out on all those occasions that there had been a rather lower export of cattle towards the end of 1956 and an abnormally high export of cattle in the first quarter of 1957. That could not be repeated in 1958. That turned out to be true.

The figures for May and June are all right. Our export figures are good and our import figures are all right, too. May and June compare favourably enough with the same months last year. I expect the remainder of this year will work out much the same as last year, so we are all right. It would mean that we would work out in or about balancing our payments.

External assets are necessary. There is no doubt about that. We could not carry on international trade, unless we had some external assets to help us out, but as far as I look at the matter, I do not think we should make a big effort to build up our external assets at the moment. They are bit low and we should try to build them up some time. We can build them up at the present time only by taking rather painful methods, by making it difficult in regard to employment and lowering the standard of living somewhat. I think that with the amount of unemployment in the country, we should not attempt to do that at the moment. If we can keep things balanced, we are all right and not try to increase our external assets for the time being.

There were a few other questions raised. First of all, with regard to the presentation of accounts which Deputy Sweetman raised, I gave him some information in answer to a question some time ago. Roughly, the position is this. We do not pay out to the Paymaster-General uniformly throughout the quarter. We find he is not touched for money until the end of the quarter and at the end of the quarter, it is paid out. As a matter of fact, the end of the quarter accounts should compare with the end of the quarter accounts last year. During the quarter, you would not have the same comparison. Deputy Sweetman says he does not object to that, but he thinks that we should compare things more frequently in the last quarter of the financial year.

I think that, under the present system, we will not be able to do that, unless we can devise some other system of giving more information for the last months of the financial year. We save under this system a certain amounts of interest on overdrafts or on borrowing, as the case may be. From the point of view of the Exchequer, therefore, it is a good system. We save a certain amount of money. I do not think any Deputy would advocate that we should, as it were, go back to the old system and pay out more for the sake of giving information. If we can give that information without doing that, all the better.

Once a month.

Perhaps towards the end of the year.

Before the Vote on Account is the matter I am worried about—the end of February.

We could give more in formation at that time all right.

Deputy Norton raised a question about the reorganisation of the Civil Service. That suggested reorganisation went from my Department to the heads of Departments on the 17th April. We have got replies from some of the Departments. We have not got replies from other. The replies we got from some Departments differ very much indeed in their comments on the proposed reorganisation and for that reason I think it would be unfair to ask that I should give any more information at the moment. If we have any hope of getting agreement, first of all, from the heads of Departments and secondly from the organisations in the Civil Service, we shall have a better chance of getting agreement by not making the terms of the reorganisation public at the moment.

Would the Minister indicate when he would hope to have discussions with the organisations—this year or next year?

It will be this year, certainly. The last point raised by Deputy Norton was the question of pensions and retired allowances. All I can say is that the Government have not considered that matter so far. Whether they will be in a position to consider it in the near future, or not, I cannot say but it has not been considered up to the moment.

I wonder would the Minister make it a little clearer as to how the Paymaster-General's accounts are dealt with. Does he issue bulk sums on account during the quarter to the Paymaster-General?

Suppose a Department was getting so much a quarter, up to this year it was paid out uniformly throughout the quarter. Now we pay it only as required. In practice, we know most of it is required just at the end of the quarter, so that there is a good saving in interest by this system.

When the Paymaster's account gets too low, it is filled in again?

If he needs the money, he gets it.

Does he get it only when he needs it? Is it only when the kitty is low that you replenish it?

Yes, when he needs it.

You get him to carry on as long as he can?

And then you give him an injection.

I think what he had used to be put on deposit.

Vote put and agreed to.
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