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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Mar 1959

Vol. 173 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Lands.

move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £45,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission (44 & 45 Vict., c. 49, sec. 46, and c. 71, sec. 4; 48 & 49 Vict., c. 73, secs. 17, 18 and 20; 54 & 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923; No. 25 of 1925; No. 11 of 1926; No. 19 of 1927; No. 31 of 1929; No. 11 of 1931; Nos. 33 and 38 of 1933; No. 11 of 1934; No. 41 of 1936; No. 26 of 1939; No. 12 of 1946; No. 25 of 1949; No. 16 of 1950; No. 18 of 1953; and No. 21 of 1954).

The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to make available to the Land Commission in this financial year a further sum of £45,000 for expenditure on essential improvement works arising from land settlement operations. The total amount provided under sub-head I for improvement of estates etc. in this year's Vote for Lands is £605,105. The actual expenditure under this heading in the previous year 1957-58 was almost £624,000. In view of the slightly reduced amount provided, it was envisaged that improved arrangements and insistence on reasonable contributions of self-help from allottees would secure at least as much effective work as in the previous year.

Deputies will recall, however, that in July last when introducing the Estimate, I referred to my direction to the Land Commission to secure the early disposal of accumulated arable lands on hands. I stated then that if it became clear during the year that additional funds were desirable to facilitate the early disposal of these lands, I would have no hesitation in putting forward revised expenditure proposals. I had in mind at the time that the implementation of my direction would necessarily mean a considerable temporary expansion in land division. This expansion, I realised, would not be possible unless adequate funds were made available to finance the additional improvement works which would be necessary.

I am glad to be able to tell Deputies now that very good progress has indeed been made this year in disposing of this back-log of arable lands. Final figures for the year will not, of course, be available for some months yet but, even at this stage, it is clear that achievements in this regard will be most impressive and may constitute a post-war record. Also, I am gratified to find that the number of migrations will certainly be well in excess of those for many years past. This is a very satisfactory feature, since the lands vacated by these migrants are used to rearrange and enlarge the intermixed and rundale holdings in the congested districts.

I am told also that the number of holdings rearranged this year will show an upward trend. This is a promising development, as the Land Commission had found in recent years that rearrangement was generally becoming more difficult as the hard core of intermixed holdings was being reached. I regard the marked progress being made in these important spheres of Land Commission activities as most satisfactory and gratifying.

As all rural Deputies know, land settlement is costly, as it necessarily involves the provision of essential improvement works, such as the erection and reconstruction of buildings and the construction of roads, fences, drains, etc. Expansion of land settlement means more improvements and increased expenditure. That expansion has been achieved this year and derives primarily from the drive to dispose quickly of the accumulated arable land on hands. That expansion, allied to a general increase of some 5 per cent. in wage rates in the early months of 1958, is responsible for the additional expenditure this year which the voted provision for the year will be insufficient to meet in full.

Before dealing with the financial details, I think that Deputies would wish me to give some information in this matter of securing contributions of self-help from allottees, to which I have already referred. This was initiated in July last with the objective of securing the maximum land division from the limited amount of money available from the Exchequer. Allottees of parcels given as enlargements are now being required to make reasonable contributions, by way of labour and materials, towards essential improvement works. Though the procedure has only been in operation for some months, a recent survey has shown that significant savings in Exchequer spending can be secured. In the five initial months up to 31st December last, the savings secured in this way are equivalent to an annual figure of some £8,000. When this new procedure becomes fully operative, there are good grounds for hoping that even greater savings can be secured.

As stated earlier, the financial provision for the improvement of estates in the current year is £605,105. At the end of February, expenditure already incurred amounted to £584,000, leaving a balance of £21,105 available for expenditure for the present month up to the end of the financial year.

This month is the really vital one in the culmination of the year's activities of the Land Commission. Land division and the execution of improvement works, gathering momentum in the earlier months, reach peak level at this time. Expenditure in the final month is invariably heavier than average, due to the drive to complete works in progress, to facilitate the allotment of the estates concerned, in time for seasonal operations. Having regard to the monthly rate of expenditure to date and to the extent of works in progress, it is clear that the sum of £21,105 available for March is entirely inadequate. The additional sum of £45,000, which is now required, is the lowest amount, in the opinion of the Land Commission, which will permit the continuation and completion of operations in progress and the discharge of commitments incurred in earlier months and now falling in for payment. I am in a position to say that the £45,000 will be offset in full by savings elsewhere in the Departmental Vote group.

It is estimated that a total excess expenditure of £3,500 will be incurred in sub-head S, which provides the finance for payment of gratuities to persons displaced from employment by reason of the acquisition, etc. of lands by the Land Commission. This excess, however, will be fully offset by savings on other sub-heads. It is impossible to estimate accurately in advance the amount that would be required under this heading for a full year. Arising from the expanded land division programme this year, there has been a considerable increase in the number of ex-employees provided for, with a consequent marked rise in expenditure. Up to 28th February, expenditure already incurred amounted to £4,000 and it is anticipated that expenditure in the remaining weeks of the year will be £1,000, giving a total estimated expenditure of £5,000. This is £3,500 in excess of the voted provision of £1,500 for the year.

I am particularly pleased with the very satisfactory progress that is being made by the Land Commission this year in disposing of accumulated arable lands on hands. I feel sure that Deputies will wish to ensure that this progress is maintained. It is with confidence therefore that I seek their support for this Supplementary Estimate, which will supply the finance necessary to continue the work for the remaining weeks of the financial year.

Could the Minister give us one figure, before we discuss this? What part of the excess on sub-head I is due to the increased cost of labour to which he referred?

Five per cent.—there was a 5 per cent. increase.

How much does that mean over the whole labour bill?

I do not know whether I could give that.

Very roughly—what is the annual labour bill?

About £14,000.

So, of the £45,000, £14,000 would be due to the 5 per cent. increase in the basic wage level.

The Minister stressed his desire to get rid of the accumulation of arable land, as he described it. That is a very laudable outlook, but I hope he will pay equal attention to the pool of arable land he has on hands, to keep it up to the level at which it was two years ago, until the job is completed. Everyone knows that the work of the Land Commission is exceedingly difficult and, as the years go on and as the hard core of congestion gets smaller, it must be getting harder to deal with. Those people have been requested many times by Land Commission inspectors to effect a settlement, to improve their holdings and they have held out or have resisted, for reasons best known to themselves.

There is a feeling amongst that hard core that the holdings which are being provided at the moment are on the small side. Furthermore, the old levels of rateable valuation adhered to by the Land Commission, as a standard for rearrangements, are on the small side. The Minister effected an improvement in that last year, but I do not know if that has made much difference. The Minister is asking £45,000 now, but nevertheless it is money well spent.

The principal thing I want to impress on the Minister is the fact that equal attention should be paid to acquisition, difficult as that may be, until the entire problem of relieving congestion is solved. Many people are getting impatient with the length of time this work is taking. They do not, of course, know the difficulties the Land Commission have to overcome. It looks to them as if the Land Commission is delaying unduly. It is desirable that the work should be brought to a successful conclusion as soon as possible.

On the question of gratuities, sub-head S., I wish the Minister would give us more details of how it arises that there is such a big increase in displaced employees, employees who have to be compensated, in this year. Is it the result of acquisitions over the past three, four or five years? The Minister might tell us why the figure has climbed to £3,500. Around £1,000 was ample under that sub-head since the passing of the 1950 Act.

Lastly, I should like the Minister to reconsider the question of self-help in the case of additions or enlargements. The Minister said it represented a saving of approximately £1,000 last year and that that might be improved on this year. I do not think this is a very wise saving. It is doubtful if many of the people who get enlargements will be able to contribute anything towards fencing, other than voluntary labour perhaps, and that would be rather negligible, so negligible that it would hardly be worth taking into account. If he is thinking in terms of a cash contribution or material—concrete posts or wire—I think he is foolish because small-holders who get additions generally have not one penny to spare. It would be stripping the corpse to ask them to contribute.

A somewhat similar policy was adopted by the Congested Districts Board 40 years ago. It met with a certain measure of success then, but it was subsequently dropped because it had the effect of cutting out the most deserving. The Minister would be wise to drop it again now. The saving involved is very small as compared with the total of the Land Commission Estimate. It will not bring any beneficial results and, indeed, it may possibly do damage similar in character to that which the Congested Districts Board discovered in bygone days.

This Supplementary Estimate is relatively small. Apart from the matters raised by Deputy Blowick, little remains to be said. I think, however, the attention of the House ought to be directed to the fact that part of this Supplementary Estimate is due to an increase in labour costs which became necessary as a result of the Government's decision to increase the cost of living. I am not at all sure that a 5 per cent. increase for the labourers working under the Land Commission is equitable vis-a-vis the 10/- per week increase provided for everybody else in the public service. I should like to have a rather fuller explanation from the Minister as to what measure of the increase in wages the £14,000 was sufficient to finance.

He might also mention, if he will be good enough to do so, what the probable measure of this charge will be in the coming financial year, as it is important that the House should recall constantly, when passing these Supplementary Estimates, that the increases in many cases are due to compensatory wage awards to those in the Government service to offset the increase in the cost of living engendered by the action of the Government when they taxed flour, bread and butter.

We ought especially to remember in this connection that such compensatory payments as have been made appear to compare unfavourably with those made to the better-off sections of the community. Most of these payments fall to be made to people who are working for the Land Commission. Small farmers have had to pay these increases in the cost of living and they have got no compensatory payment of any kind, sort or description. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to dwell on that aspect, when he comes to conclude.

Deputy Blowick said he hoped the pool of arable land would not be suffered to melt away so long as rearrangement work required to be done. Of course, Deputy Blowick's experience in the Department of Lands and, much more, his experience living in a congested area in the West, has dictated the note of warning he uttered. The Minister ought to consider the taking over of derelict holdings becoming available in the congested areas.

The question of land does not arise.

The Minister spoke at length about migration.

In relation to the improvement of holdings.

Yes, in relation to the improvement of holdings. He discussed with eloquence how satisfactory he found migration to be.

The acquisition and distribution of estates do not fall for discussion on this Supplementary Estimate.

Surely it does, Sir. The improvement of holdings, as the Minister said, is preparatory to the rearrangement of holdings in the congested areas.

There is nothing in the Estimate for the acquisition of estates.

The improvement of estates.

Improvement only.

I want to suggest that one of the methods the Minister might employ to economise on the Estimate in relation to the improvement of estates would be to avail of the powers conferred upon the Land Commission by Deputy Blowick and purchase derelict holdings, at auction or by private treaty, where they would not, in many cases, require improvement within the meaning of the Act at all, but would be extremely useful for allocation——

Surely that is acquisition, and there is no money in this Supplementary Estimate for acquisition. I do not want the discussion on the Estimate to be enlarged.

I understand there was a reference by the Minister to migration.

There is actually in this sub-head no money for acquisition at all.

There is money for migration.

There is money for the improvement of estates.

I am suggesting a method by which the Minister might economise; in other words, he might economise by using some of the growing number of derelict holdings in the congested areas. However, the Chair feels that would be more relevant to the main Estimate.

That is quite right.

I shall invite the Minister between now and the main Estimate to consider the growing number of derelict holdings. That is a matter upon which we shall have a word to say to him when the main Estimate comes to be considered.

Naturally, a debate on a Supplementary Estimate is bound to be limited in its scope, but I cannot refrain from taking this opportunity, when we are voting additional moneys to the Land Commission, to offer some comments. I had occasion to comment adversely here on the activities of that body which I regard as a dictatorial body. Its conduct of affairs would not be tolerated by any private company.

The Deputy is proceeding outside the ambit of the Estimate altogether.

I understand the Supplementary Estimate is to enable the Land Commission to continue its activities until 31st March?

It is on two specific matters.

I understand that one heading relates to looking after estates acquired. I shall deal with that. I know, Sir, you are not anxious to have general comments.

I am anxious that what is on the Order Paper should be discussed, and nothing more.

I cannot deal as well with estates as I can with small holdings, such as there are in my constituency. When the Land Commission acquire such holdings, at least five years' work lies ahead for a battalion of inspectors and *officials before they can get that parcel of land off their hands. I know that land acquired back in 1952 or 1953 has not yet been fully divided by the Land Commission. Surely no private concern would tolerate such conduct? We have inspectors calling on would-be applicants for such parcels of land, and if such an applicant had the misfortune to say a cross word to any of these fellows, you can rest assured that his chances of getting any land would be greatly diminished. That is grossly unfair and completely out of place from public officials who are paid to determine the facts impartially and to report impartially on the merits of each applicant. I have asserted both inside and outside the House that that is not being done, and unless you put on a smiling face and try to curry favour with some of these inspectors, the report will be against you.

Has the Minister or his predecessor examined the activities of these people? Does the Minister believe that it is in order for the Land Commission to take five years to divide a parcel of land of 60 to 70 acres? Is that a reasonable time to take to divide it? Does the Minister believe it requires 100 visits by inspectors before they finally reach a recommendation?

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but this deals with the improvement of estates, not with allotment.

I do not want to go outside your ruling, Sir, but I understand that some of this money is required for the future maintenance of holdings in the hands of the commission. I am making the point that the Land Commission could dispose of those holdings in a much shorter period than at present.

The Deputy could not have heard my speech at all.

I did, Sir. I am making the point that if this period were cut down, we probably would have no need for this additional £45,000 for the current financial year. It is very seldom that the opportunity arises here for commenting on that body, because it is quite useless to put down a question to the Minister to try to get their activities debated here publicly. You are told it is the function of the Land Commission and that the Minister has no power whatever to interfere. In respect of another Vote, did we not hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce give that reply to another Deputy to-day?

The Deputy ought to confine himself to the improvement of estates, for which the money is provided.

Am I not doing that?

The Deputy is not. The Deputy is discussing the allotment of estates.

I shall not deal with that. I want to drive home this point: When the Land Commission acquire an estate or even a small holding, they have it on their hands for an average of five years before they can finally allot it.

Is that not clearly allotment?

Is it not quite clear that if they divided these lands within a reasonable period, it would cost the Land Commission and public funds much less money?

The Deputy is discussing the allotment of estates. This does not deal with allotment. The money here is for the improvement of estates.

I do not want to go outside your ruling, Sir.

The Deputy may not, but he is slipping outside it gradually.

Am I not in order in the comments I have made?

The Deputy has made his comments. I shall try to guide him in his future comments.

In view of the attitude of the Chair, I shall reserve my further comments for the general Estimate.

In view of the items on the Estimate paper.

With all due respect to you, Sir, I do not want to go outside your ruling, but I believe my statement is completely relevant to the discussion before the House.

This Supplementary Estimate is for £5,000. I should like to know what number of displaced people that would cover. What is the sum the Land Commission consider reasonable for the displacement or loss of employment by individuals—for instance, a herd or some similar employee on an estate? If, through the action of the Land Commission, a person loses his employment, it is a serious matter. If he is a married man with a family and loses his employment, it is a more serious matter still. I should like to know the number in this year and the condition of the people for whom this £5,000 is rerequired.

I hope I am not widening the scope of the debate, but I should like to know also on what sections this total saving of £45,000 will be made. Or are there other activities of the Land Commission which will be curtailed for the purpose of saving this £45,000?

I trust that the Estimate for Lands will be taken at a very early date because there are questions that must be raised in connection with the activities of the Land Commission. I do not propose to go into them now, but I would ask the Minister to expedite the presentation of his Vote for the next financial year.

Anybody listening to the Minister for Lands to-night, or who has the time to spare to-morrow to read his contribution in the newspapers, is likely to gain the impression that the Land Commission is a hive of activity and the Minister himself a human dynamo in directing the functions of the Land Commission.

Might I intervene for a moment to say that I find that the net saving is £3,500, not £45,000?

Is that not right?

The Minister will probably deal with that point.

I wanted to correct myself.

The Minister has told us about the tremendous drive in the Department at the moment in dealing with lands that are on hands and how expeditiously the Department, in the last 12 months, has managed to get rid of these lands. We are not told, of course, that quite an amount of this land has been on hands for years past; that quite a large amount of that land has been practically exploited to the limit; and that quite a large amount of it is practically useless to the people to whom it has been allotted. Some of that land has been set year after year by the Land Commission and now we find the sorry spectacle that, without fertiliser or anything else, this land is being forked over to applicants who have been waiting for years for a piece of good land.

I have already pointed out that there is nothing to do with the distribution of land in this Supplementary Estimate. If the Deputy will look at the White Paper, he will see what the £45,000 is required for—"Labour (including Employer's Contributions under the Social Welfare Acts), Materials and Miscellaneous Expenses required for the purpose of Building Works (£22,000) and General Improvement Works (£23,000)."

We all got a copy of that document and the House knows what is in it.

Surely it is for the administration of lands that the Land Commission——

There is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate dealing with the distribution or allotment of lands.

Surely Deputies are entitled to discuss what that money is being spent on?

There is nothing in the White Paper relating to the allotment of lands.

But it is the administration of lands——

It is not on the White Paper and does not arise.

What do they want the money for?

That is on the White Paper; it is clearly set out.

Surely what I am talking about has a reference to what is on the White Paper. I am dealing with the improvement of estates and the Minister's remarks to the effect that he had done tremendous work in the past 12 months in improvement work in connection with the amount of land that has been given to tenants. This money will be spent on the improvement of lands in connection with roads and turbary and so forth. I submit I am being completely relevant in criticising the Minister's remarks that the Land Commission has done tremendous work. I say that the petty increase which is asked for is proof positive that the Land Commission has been sitting down on the job for years past.

If there were such a tremendous increase in the work of distribution, as the Minister told us, would not the figure for land improvement be five or ten times what it is at the moment? May I ask the Minister whether some of these moneys which he is looking for will be spent in parts of my constituency, for instance, in the Boyle area? Can the Minister tell me what portion of this money for improvement of estates has been spent on the congests in the vicinity of the Rockingham estate in Boyle? Will this increase, or portion of it, or extra money that is being asked for in the Supplementary Estimate, go to alleviate the conditions of those people who live adjoining the Rockingham estate, where the people live in congested holdings, and in expectation that their rightful needs will be met?

I have already told the Deputy that the distribution of land does not arise on the Estimate. The Deputy will not succeed in discussing this on the Estimate.

I intend to stay completely within the specific references in the White Paper and I shall refer you, Sir, to Section 39 of the Land Act, 1939.

I am not going to construe any Land Act. I am only going to construe what is in the White Paper and the Deputy is not discussing the Estimate.

In sub-section (1), Part 3 of the White Paper, in connection with the improvement of estates, it states that the following sections are referred to and it specifically states that Sections 39, 55 and 57 of the Land Act, 1939——

Expenditure incurred under these headings, and authorised by that legislation.

——and, therefore, Sir, I refer you to Section 39 where the expenditure occurs under the 1939 Act.

I am going to construe what is before me.

I have the Act before me and the Act is referred to in the White Paper.

If the Deputy will not discuss the Estimate as it is on the White Paper. I must ask him to resume his seat.

I intend to refer to the White Paper and I have the Act before me which, in my opinion, allows me to refer to the position of people close to large estates like the Rockingham estate.

That does not arise on this.

May I put it this way, without referring to the Rockingham estate—may I suggest that Section 39 of the Land Act states:—

"It is hereby declared and enacted that the Land Commission have and shall have power to resume, in whole or in part, for any one or more of the following purposes, any holding vested under the Land Purchase Acts in them or in the late Congested Districts Board for Ireland, that is to say:—"

—and sub-section (d) reads—

"(d) for the purpose of improving or rearranging the holding."

The powers of the Land Commission are not under discussion at all. We are discussing the question of moneys being voted by the House for certain things.

The Minister in the White Paper referred to what I am reading out.

The Deputy will either discuss what is before the House or resume his seat.

I intend to discuss the Estimate within the terms of the White Paper. I do not understand the Chair's reference to the Act.

I am not going to discuss the matter any further. The Deputy must discuss the Estimate before the House.

Am I entitled to ask in connection with the improvement of estates and the section to which the Minister has referred, and in regard to my constituency, how much or what portion of the money has gone in my constituency towards the improvement——

The Deputy is suggesting that some of these moneys should be used for the acquisition of lands; there is no money in this Estimate for the acquisition of lands.

The Chair is putting words into my mouth which I have not used. I have not made any statement——

Perhaps I could clear up this matter. The position is that no money under this head would be spent on any estate that could or could not be acquired between now and March 31. It simply could not happen.

In connection with the people who live on these congested holdings, their holdings are being rearranged and, for the purposes of rearrangement, the Minister comes here for money for the improvement of estates.

The Minister has clearly indicated that no money is being voted in this Estimate in respect of any land that could be acquired up to 31st March. The Deputy will cease trying to discuss that.

I shall put it this way——

On a point of order, I do not want to intervene in the matter, but the improvement of estates is mentioned here in the White Paper as improvement of estates under Section 39 of the Land Act of 1939. Section 39 is a very wide section which does include the acquisition of estates.

But the Minister indicated that any money under this Supplementary Estimate could not be used in connection with any estate that could be acquired up to 31st March.

Surely the Minister is not the legal interpreter of Section 39?

The Chair must take note of what the Minister says the money is being voted for.

What the Minister says, with all respect, cannot override the provisions of Section 39.

I am not here to construe an Act of Parliament. There is only one place where that can be construed. I take it the Deputy knows that very well.

The Minister said the money was required for certain purposes. Then he said that the back-log of available land was being divided, that the land was then utilised by the people who got it, that it was to be utilised for rearranged holdings, for more improvements on the holdings, and that maximum land division was about to take place, which is allotments, and that this month is a very important month because of the time of the year.

Perhaps the Minister would tell us what the money is required for?

Is the Minister to be entitled now to make a second explanation and a second Second Reading speech?

The Deputy is not dealing with the matter on the paper——

I would refer the Chair to Section 48 of the 1931 Act. That is in the White Paper.

I am not construing an Act.

I do not know what this House is for, if we do not go by the Acts. If we go by the Minister, I do not see the need for a Ceann Comhairle. The Minister referred to Section 48 of the 1931 Act. If it is referred to in the White Paper, I presume I am entitled to refer to it?

The Minister referred to what the money is for— not in respect of estates which are divisible or acquirable before 31st March.

The Ceann Comhairle thinks I intended to deal solely with a particular matter which was on the Order Paper to-day. All sorts of attempts are being made to hedge the Minister and to prevent me from discussing that aspect. I have made but a passing reference to it. It is very unfair to be prejudiced against me at this stage.

The Chair is not prejudiced against the Deputy. However, it is my duty to see to it that the Deputy discusses only what is on the paper.

That is what I am endeavouring to do.

The Deputy is endeavouring to discuss the allotment and acquisition of estates.

There is a difference of opinion between Deputy McQuillan and the Chair.

The Chair wins.

Section 48 of the 1931 Act states specifically that grants for expenses of transferring migrants can be made. That is referred to in the White Paper. I want to ask the Minister how many migrants from the flooded areas of the Shannon in North Roscommon, close to where the Rockingham estate is, have been transferred. What portion of this money which the Minister is anxious to get now will be utilised in looking after the unfortunate people whose lands have been flooded, year after year, along the Shannon?

The Deputy is discussing another matter now on this Supplementary Estimate—the flooded areas of the Shannon. The Chair is losing patience with the Deputy.

My patience is going fast. I have restricted and restrained myself here on a matter of the utmost public importance. I see a sneer on the Minister's face for the past 20 minutes because he knows he will be protected here. Half an hour before this debate took place, there was a huddle of officials outside the House to see how they could prevent me from raising this matter of public importance and you, as Ceann Comhairle, are taking the advice of officials who presumed I would use this debate for the sole purpose of dealing with the Rockingham estate. I resent that and also the idea of any officials of this House moving, outside this House, to prevent Deputies from exercising their rights.

The Deputy will resume his seat. I shall listen no further to any matter of that kind.

I have made my position clear.

I have a few remarks to make on this Supplementary Estimate and I do not know, with all the different rulings, whether or not I shall be in order. However, I intend to keep, according to my own knowledge of the rulings, within the rules of order, if at all possible. I wish to speak on this matter as far as it affects my constituency. On the last two Estimates for the Land Commission, and during the past two years, I referred to estates which the Land Commission had in hands in North Galway for years—some of them up to nearly 20 years—and which were being set annually. I was glad last year, when introducing his Estimate, to hear the Minister say he was directing the activities of the Land Commission towards getting rid of the land they had in hands for a long number of years and to making that, as I understood him, anyhow, their primary objective.

I wish now to compliment the Minister, as far as my constituency is concerned, on having a good lot of those arrears cleared up. Some of the estates and lands I asked questions about in the past two years have now, I am glad to say, been divided. Improvements have been made on them —roads and ditches—and they have been allotted to people to whom the Land Commission thought fit to give them. I am glad the work has gone apace and that the Minister has seen fit to look for this extra money. I am sorry he is not looking for more——

This is only for the management of estates.

I think one Ceann Comhairle is enough.

There were three up to date.

I am accepting the ruling of only one.

The Deputy is very lucky, so far.

I want to compliment the Minister in that direction, as far as my constituency is concerned. I should be glad if this Supplementary Estimate were for twice the amount because there are still lands on the Land Commission's hands. In particular there is some turbary that I have asked questions about and that I shall have to ask more questions about in the future because I am not altogether satisfied yet. I should be glad if roads were made into them and if they were drained and divided among the suitable applicants in North Galway. I wish again to compliment the Minister and the Land Commission on the work they have done. I hope it will be speeded up further.

When a Supplementary Estimate for Lands comes up for discussion in this House, I take it that the Minister is responsible for the activities of the Land Commission to this House. In view of that fact, I want to take this opportunity to protest determinedly and strongly against the attitude of the Minister in refusing to meet deputations to discuss the activities of the Land Commission on the question of improvements.

That cannot be discussed on the Supplementary Estimate.

We have already been told by the Chair that we can discuss on this Estimate the question of land improvement. We are now to vote money for land improvement by the Land Commission. If the people, through their public representatives, want to discuss land improvements and the Minister comes to ask this House and the taxpayers for money for the purpose, I feel some Deputy ought to be given an opportunity to express resentment towards the Minister who is responsible to this House for all the activities of the Land Commission, whether in connection with land improvement, land acquisition, division or settlement or anything else.

We are asked to-night for a sum of money to keep the Land Commission going until 31st March. At the same time, since the Minister is responsible for these activities, we must hear from him some explanation as to why he has closed his office doors against Deputies of all Parties in this House and why he has refused to allow himself to be used as the link between this House and the Land Commission.

A Deputy

That is not correct.

This would seem to be a matter for the main Estimate.

I shall most certainly obey the Chair's ruling. I want to forewarn the Minister that when the main Estimate comes along, he will be confronted with a problem with regard to the question of Land Commission improvements.

Deputy Murphy made reference to the fact that in his knowledge and experience, there has been a certain amount of discourtesy on the part of certain officials of the Land Commission and that one would require a certain amount of skill and tact to obtain what one feels one is entitled to under the law. Deputy Murphy, in my hearing, made that statement to-night. I cannot contribute to that because it has been my experience in relation to the officers and the activities of the Land Commission in general in my constituency, that they deal with the general public in a most courteous manner. Like most Deputies, I do not put myself in the way of looking for complaints, but I cannot contribute to the ideas of Deputy Murphy that there has been any discourtesy or bias or that unfair reports have been submitted by any officers of the Land Commission.

With regard to the improvements carried out in that constituency, I say that during the past few years there has been a volume of very useful work carried out by the Land Commission. Let me put it on record that I feel it has been carried out under very proper supervision. Money is now being provided for improvement works. I understand that some of those moneys will be used between now and 31st March for fencing. I think the Land Commission waste a lot of money in providing the old, clay, clod fences. That is my experience and I have examined the problem. My interests as a Deputy and also my interests in other spheres bring me into close contact with the people who are affected.

After a very short time, after bad weather, after an attempt at trespass by live stock, the old clod fences come down again. It would be in the interests of the Land Commission to use concrete posts and strong wire netting. I thought the Minister was going to say something.

The Deputy is under a misapprehension. For a few years back, only wire fences have been used.

I have seen the clod fences.

I wish the Deputy would let me know.

And in my constituency.

I do not think the Minister is rightly informed; I think he is wrong.

Do not be discourteous to the official.

I am sure that if the officers of the Land Commission get in touch with the inspectors dealing with the midlands, they will find out that the old clod fences are still in use. It is being penny wise and pound foolish. A good, proper job should be done. In addition to concrete posts and wire fencing, proper and decent entrance piers and piers to farm entrances and exits should be provided by the Land Commission, because I have seen holdings provided by the Land Commission where cheap iron posts were erected. The gates did not reflect great credit on the Land Commission. They took from a good job that would have been of benefit to the rural community. The Minister would be well-advised to call a conference of the engineering section of the Land Commission and get them to alter the design of Land Commission improvements to a more modern and up-to-date design.

We have been trying to get the old workhouse look taken off certain institutions in this country. I think it is about time that the Land Commission should have a new look, so far as their improvements to holdings are concerned. I hope to give the Minister a more detailed account of the activities of the Land Commission in the midlands when the main Estimate comes along. Money spent on Land Commission roadways is money very well spent.

From time to time, the Land Commission have had many requests for the improvement of certain rights of way. There may be many legal difficulties. We know the law presents great difficulties. People may be unreasonable and it is not easy for the Land Commission to solve the many difficulties that may exist because of the peculiarities of certain people in Ireland. In that respect, they have not done a bad job. On the whole, the Land Commission was set up in this country as a temporary institution. May we ask when is it to finish? When do the Government or any Government propose to wind up the activities of the Land Commission?

That is a matter for discussion on the main Estimate.

I agree, but it is no harm to have the Minister forewarned that all these questions are likely to be asked. I agree with Deputy MacEoin in asking that the main Vote be taken as soon as possible because of a certain amount of discontent or misunderstanding that exists between the Land Commission and the people in rural Ireland. Apart from that, may I say that the Land Commission in dealing with improvements have not done a bad job? It is very easy to criticise. There is nothing nearer the tongue than a certain amount of criticism, but how very slow we are to give a little credit where credit is due? A certain amount of credit is due to the Land Commission. Those of us who have a knowledge of the works carried out in rural Ireland give them that clap on the back.

At the risk of being out of the fashion and in order, I want to make just one observation in relation to road making by the Land Commission as part of estate improvement.

A great deal of dissatisfaction and discomfort results from the present situation. When the Land Commission make a road, the road is left there without being anybody's responsibility after that, and it is almost impossible to have that dealt with by any of the other offices responsible for rural improvements, special employment schemes or such activities. I would urge upon the Minister and the Land Commission that some provision should be made for the maintenance of such roads even after leaving the area and, failing to be able to maintain it as their own responsibility, there should be some sort of liaison established for the maintenance of the road between themselves and some other Department because it is a necessary and valuable adjunct to whatever rearrangement schemes they have on hands.

In his statement here to-night, the Minister took the opportunity to conceal the real purpose of this Supplementary Estimate which mainly is intended to meet the extra wages arising from the Budget of last year, in addition to the cost——

It is not nonsense. It includes increases to persons engaged in the management of these estates, in addition to provision for the maintenance and improvement of these estates. Deputy Lindsay made reference to the maintenance of Land Commission laneways which has proved to be very important. In many counties, the Land Commission does not consult with the local county council regarding the construction and design of that lane. After a lapse of a number of years, when it is not made up to specification, the county council will not take responsibility for its maintenance. The result is that the tenants down those lanes, which become full of pot holes, are left without ordinary services, such as bakery vans, medical services and other essential services which would be available in the normal way, if there were a proper road. There should be consultation between the county councils and the Land Commission so that these lanes would be made up to specification.

The Minister took the opportunity to boast about the achievements of the Government during the past 12 months. He failed to mention, however, that the premises to which he referred were acquired before the Government came into office and certainly steps were taken to acquire the estates concerned long before they came into office. He referred also to the policy in relation to migration, the removal of migrants to some of these holdings which were to be improved by the amount of money mentioned to-night, which includes, of course, the building and maintenance of dwellings. There were five dwellings built on an estate in Garretstown, north County Dublin, to which it is intended to move five Clare families, in spite of the fact that it would not have been necessary to build any houses on that land taking into consideration the number of uneconomic holders immediately adjoining that estate. The Minister is not operating any positive policy in relation to land division. He is refusing to meet deputations.

As already pointed out, that does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.

I shall take that up on the main Estimate, but it is a sore point all over the country. The Minister will receive no deputation concerning this estate and he is taking no positive interest in the land division policy that existed before he assumed office. He said he had got lands off his hands which he found in the pool when he came into office. I think I am right in saying he got approximately 50,000 acres into his hands which were in the possession of the Land Commission, or in the course of acquisition. He has made no new effort to acquire further land to replace any of these lands which would go off the hands of the Land Commission.

That, too, would be a matter for the main Estimate and I suggest to the Deputy that he should reserve his remarks for that Estimate.

The policy of improving premises for migrants in certain areas should be considered by the Minister very carefully, remembering that on many occasions this migration is taking place from one congested district to another, such as County Dublin, where there is a very limited amount of land available. We have had two examples in the past number of years where local uneconomic holders——

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but he is getting away from the matters contained in the Supplementary Estimate.

I shall not proceed any further on that. The Minister should have been honest in introducing this Estimate and, instead of boasting of the progressive policy which he claims to have implemented during the past 12 months which brought about this Estimate, as he told the House, he should have admitted that he was dealing with the situation he found there. That land was there and he knew there was necessity of improvement of these estates which he had on hands. He should not have tried to give the impression that new work or new acquisition had taken place during that period.

Deputy Rooney has been talking the sheerest nonsense. The acquisition of lands is being continued at full speed and the idea that this Vote relates only to the improvement of estates on hand in the time of the previous Government is untrue. I might add that some of the estates being improved under this sub-head were acquired by Fianna Fáil in the years 1953 and 1954. This improvement Vote does not disclose some hidden collapse in the activities of the Land Commission.

Is it not equally true that some of the lands being allotted are 30 years on hands?

The Minister should be allowed to speak. Time is running short and there are other important items that must be finished before 12 o'clock.

There are not many points of importance in connection with this debate. I have already dealt with the fact that there has been no diminution of the intake of land. The payment of gratuities is due to an accumulation of arrears in the allotment of estates over a period and does not reflect any unusual feature in relation to current division covering an ordinary year's work. In reply to Deputy MacEoin, the number of gratuities paid was 36 up to the 28th February, 1959, and the amount required for that was £4,000. The average per case was £111.

In regard to the increase of wages, I have already indicated that only half of the Estimate, some £14,000, is represented by the increase in wages payable to workers in the Land Commission, and the wages they receive relate to the county council wage in each district. Therefore, there is no truth in the suggestion that we are trying to keep down the wages in particular areas in relation to any particular levels of the cost of living.

In reply to Deputy Dillon, we do take derelict farms in the West as part of our rearrangement schemes and there is no lack of activity in that regard.

That is, purchases under Section 27?

We use the established facilities we have for taking derelict sites where there are absentees, as the Deputy knows. Deputy Murphy did not hear my speech and spoke as though there were no clearing up of arrears being done, when, in fact, we are trying to clean up all the arrears in the Land Division by April, 1960, as a result of concentrated work and, at the same time, maintain a reasonably high level of acquisition and division on the current basis.

Deputy Murphy made a most serious charge against the impartiality and politeness of the Land Commission officers. I would immediately ask him to let me have the exact particulars, because, as was so rightly said by other Deputies, the officers of the Land Commission discharge their task with efficiency and courtesy. I should like to state in connection with this Vote, where we are dealing with the improvement of estates, the number of occasions on which Deputies of this House have ever cast reflections on the honesty and impartiality of the Land Commission officers is so minutely small as to be negligible and really to constitute very high praise for the officers who do this extraordinarily difficult work.

Deputy MacEoin asked about the saving of £3,500 related to salaries on sub-head A. That saving was due to unfilled vacancies. That gives all the information necessary at the present time and I should like to conclude by saying the Estimate for the Land Commission will be taken at the usual time and that the Land Commission is pursuing its course in an essentially unchanged way. The methods by which the estates are acquired or the record of general policy in relation to land settlement are unchanged. Perhaps if people had less regard to what they read in certain newspapers and periodicals, they would not worry unduly about when the Land Commission Estimate will be taken.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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