Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (16th Dáil) – Wednesday, 15 Apr 1959

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £67,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, including certain other Services administered by that Office.—(Minister for Justice.)

Mr. Dillon

When I moved to report progress on the last occasion, I was speaking of the desirability of providing some facilities for psychiatric examination of children on remand in the Marlborough House Place of Detention. There are facilities available in the City of Dublin at present, in that there is a Child Guidance Clinic, which is run, I think, by voluntary effort and which would be readily made available to the Minister, if he would give the necessary direction. There is the difficulty that, while he is responsible for committing the children to Marlborough House, the Minister for Education is responsible for the internal administration. It would be legitimate for the Minister for Justice to express his interest in this matter, in that the Place of Detention serves only as a place where children are sent or should be sent while their circumstances and background are being investigated, so that when the District Justice comes finally to dispose of the charges laid against the child, he may be furnished with all available information.

I do not think the District Justice can be deemed to have all requisite information properly to dispose of the future of a child of tender years, unless he has the benefit of a report on the general psychological condition of the child and, what may be even more important, of the family background of the child, with the possible difficulties obtaining there which might seriously affect the conduct of the child.

I instance, for the Minister's information, a case recently referred to in a publication dealing with this matter. It was the case of a child who appeared to be wholly uncontrollable and who repeatedly fell into the hands of the police. I think this case occurred in Gt. Britain. The child was charged with breaking and entering and nobody seemed to be able to reconcile this long tale of crime with the tender years of the child, who was 13 or 14 years of age. I think that suitable psychiatric investigation revealed that the child was suffering from a very easily recognisable and well established case of claustrophobia and was reacting in this peculiar way to that condition. In the case of any mature person, that factor would come readily to light and due regard would have been had to it when his responsibility for any collision with the law was being investigated by a court of competent jurisdiction, whereas this child was a person of tender years and quite unable to explain himself or his feelings to a police court. It required skilled investigation by a sympathetic person who was trained to conduct it, in order to establish the true cause of his conduct.

Everybody expresses sympathy with the necessity for a reform of this kind and the Minister himself speaks of his desire to promote penal reform. He speaks also of the difficulty he has in doing so, owing to the happy fact that there are so few persons in prison in Ireland. Here is a scope for reform which is urgently necessary. It is perfectly easy to undertake and it is one to which I would most strongly urge the Minister to devote his mind.

I want to refer to another matter, mentioned by the Minister in his opening statement. He was referring to deaths on the roads. His sole contribution to the solution of that problem was to say that he hoped people would behave themselves better in the future. I am no expert in this matter, but from the ordinary commonsense observation of the activities of my fellow men, I believe that if we could eliminate drunken driving we would reduce deaths on the road by about 50 per cent. When I speak of drunken driving, I do not mean driving by a man who is unable to stand upright, because that kind of man is usually very little danger to himself or to anybody else. For one thing, he is hardly able to get into a car and if he does, he is not able to start it; and if he does succeed in starting it he does not go far.

The great danger is the man who thinks he is not drunk, but in fact is. He is the man who believes that his powers of observation and management of a car are greatly stimulated by having half a dozen drinks and then one for the road. The truth of it is that if you could persuade people in that state of mind to leave their cars behind them and go home by bus, it would be far better for everybody.

I do not minimise the difficulty of dealing with that situation. I think the ideal is to establish the principle that if a man is driving a car, he should not drink alcohol. If he wants to go to a party in a car, one member of the company ought to impose upon himself the self-denying ordinance of abstaining from alcohol. The person who is in charge of a car ought to refrain from taking alcohol and, as far as I know, there is no other way of preventing—of readily preventing— the very large percentage of the accidents, fatal and otherwise, which are at present so grave a cause of anxiety to everybody.

Of course, it is true even if you abolish 50 per cent. of these accidents by the observance of restraint of this character, there would still remain the other 50 per cent. but, doubtless, these can be curtailed by better road manners, by a greater readiness to consider the other users of the road, by driving at a more reasonable rate and by observing the various precepts which the Minister for Local Government and other interested parties offer for the guidance of motorists. However, I believe the principal remedy which would yield the largest and most immediate return would be measures to ensure that a person who drives a motor car abstains from the consumption of alcohol until his driving days are done.

I fully appreciate that in the administration of prisons, the Borstal and other places of detention, one has to guard against the unwarranted intrusion of well-intentioned but mischievous persons whose activities are calculated to create nothing but confusion and difficulty in highly specialised institutions of that kind. At the same time, I think the Minister should exercise a very wise discretion and, if there are persons who are genuinely interested in penal reform, who are in good faith, and are not seeking to wander in and out of prisons for the purpose of giving trouble, and they apply to him for permission to visit prisons and penal institutions, he should make that permission available.

I remember that not long after I became a member of this House, it occurred to me if we were legislating to lock people up in jail—as it was our duty to do—one essential preliminary to undertaking that was to see what jail was like. A great many of my colleagues had spent some time in jail and they had not to undertake that pious pilgrimage. I had not, and I conceived it my duty to visit prisons. I think at that time Deputy Boland was Minister for Justice and he made no difficulty about giving facilities to me in visiting Limerick Prison, Cork Prison and the penal servitude institution in Mountjoy. I think it was a good thing for any legislator to do. I think, before you start legislating to lock up your fellow men, it is no harm to go and see the circumstances which will surround them if they fall foul of the law.

But, apart from Deputies and members of Seanad Éireann, there are certain well-intentioned and prudent people in our community who are interested in the general question of penal reform and, if they ask permission of the Minister, I think it is worth taking some risk in leaning towards the direction of making penal institutions open for the inspection of such persons rather than to adopt too conservative an attitude and say: "Look, we have prison visitors; we have the officers of the Department of Justice and the prison officers themselves, and these are quite enough." I do not think it is and it would be a pity if, through some oversight of that kind, we got the reputation of showing any reluctance to throwing open these institutions for prudent inspection by prudent people who were bona fide in their application to the Minister for Justice.

The last matter I want to refer to is something I find rather painful to mention at all. It is one of these things about which one always finds oneself in a difficulty. If you do not mention it, you are liable to be charged with failing in your duty and yet, if you do mention it, you have the queer feeling you may be doing an injustice. On balance I think the best way to stamp out a prairie fire—if it can be stamped out—is to describe the source of the smoke the moment you see it. If there is fire at the bottom of it, then it is well that fire should be displayed for public view. If there is not, then the Minister is in a position to correct any degree of public malaise that may exist. I want to tell the Minister that rumours are reaching me that a practice is growing up of members of his Party making representations to the Garda for the purpose of deterring them from launching prosecutions against their political supporters in rural Ireland. I think that is a very undesirable thing.

It is perfectly legitimate for a member of this House to remit to the Minister any application he may receive for the exercise of clemency. I am not at all sure that it might not be a good thing, where such clemency is exercised on the representation of a member of this House, that the fact that he made such representation should be made known on the occasion of the exercising of the clemency. If he has no reason to be ashamed of these representations, then he ought not be the least reluctant to let it be known that the application for clemency was made at his instance, and on foot of the local knowledge he claimed to have, and submitted to the Minister. But, in no circumstances does it seem to me proper to justify efforts on the part of any member of this House to deter the Garda from doing their duty and dealing with every citizen of the State on the basis of strict equality.

There may be cases in which the Garda, having full knowledge of local circumstances, may refrain from prosecution where it might appear prosecution would be justified. If they do that on their own responsibility, then they can answer to the Garda authorities for any dereliction of duty that may be subsequently alleged against them, but it would be a wholly shocking thing if the belief were widespread that the Garda were influenced in the discharge of their duty by pressure brought to bear upon them by people in the public life of the country. This is a matter into which the Minister might with advantage inquire and take an early opportunity of making an authoritative statement.

I think also, where he is moved to exercising the prerogative of remitting sentences on the representation of members of this House or of the Seanad, he might very well consider, at the time of making the remission, stating that amongst other representations for clemency regarding this case, he had received them from so-and-so, naming the Deputies or Senators who had made the representation. I am continually making representations—I do not know whether to the Minister or the Revenue Commissioners. My constituents are much given to smuggling. They all protest they were not smuggling, and give me long descriptions of how they were merely travelling from one place to another with anything from a pair of silk stockings to a pound of butter, that they were cruelly set upon by the Revenue Commissioners and savagely penalised, I need hardly say always unjustly.

I always send these representations forward, I think to the Revenue Commissioners. I am sure some of them found their way into the hands of the Minister for Justice. I very rarely have any success whatever in making my representations prevail, but if the Minister does show clemency in respect of any of these cases, I should be most happy if he proclaimed the fact that the clemency was exercised at my instance. I shall experience no embarrassment whatever in having my name associated with any appeal for clemency which I have made.

I know the answer I would get if I went to an officer of the Revenue Commissioners and tried to stop him from levying a fine on one of my constituents or from seizing property which he considered it to be his duty to seize. He would quite properly tell me to go mind my own business and that if I persisted in any such attempt, he would take steps to make me criminally answerable. That is perfectly right. The proper place for me to make representation is to the responsible Minister or the Revenue Commissoiners, as may be appropriate.

My difficulty lies in hearing what I have reported to the House. The Minister should take steps to correct that impression if it be false. I remember the last time I was discussing this Estimate Deputy Russell said that the Minister must get weary listening to one Deputy repeating substantially what the previous Deputy has said. Here I suggest to Deputy Russell that no Deputy should feel that embarrassment. He does the Minister less than justice if he does not faithfully repeat what another Deputy has said. If in his personal knowledge the facts are as the previous Deputy reported them, then the Deputy, like any other Deputy who has experience or has heard this rumour, tells the Minister. If the matter requires investigation and correction, let such investigation and correction be made; if it does not, the Minister will so say and in the absence of any further evidence I am sure all of us would be very happy to accept the Minister's reassurance.

Mr. Everett

I wish to pay tribute to the Minister and his Department for the manner in which they carry out their very difficult task. The Minister and his Department are not, like other Departments, in a position to make themselves popular by giving various grants. In 99 cases out of 100 their answer must be "No".

In the course of the debate Deputies have referred to the parole of prisoners. In regard to St. Patrick's— the Borstal Institute—I feel the Minister should have taken the Press into his confidence and we would not have had an occurrence such as we had this week. I am referring to a photograph of the entrance to Mountjoy Jail which appeared in a newspaper during the week and under which it was stated that this was where the Borstal Boys enter. I do not blame the writer, but it is not a fact. There is a separate entrance for the boys in St. Patrick's and there is no contact whatever with Mountjoy. There is a separate visiting Board and a whole time chaplain, appointed by the Archbishop, to take a special interest in the boys and to be with them each day.

In my time as Minister, parole was given to boys for good conduct. They were allowed out to the pictures and other amusements. Football and boxing teams were organised. They did not compete under the title of the Borstal Institution. I shall not give the title because people might point them out. We tried to remove the stigma. I should like Deputies to see the offices there where the tables and various other furniture have been made by the boys. The Minister has probably received letters such as I received thanking the Governor and those in charge for placing the boys in very good positions. When a boy left after three years, the Governor recommended him, not as coming from the Borstal, but as having three years' practical experience of a trade.

During my period there was only one case of a paroled boy not coming forward at the proper time. He gave a very reasonable excuse. At that time the Borstal was in Clonmel and the majority of the boys came from Dublin. It was three months since this boy had seen his parents. They were poor people and were unable to pay the fare down to Clonmel. The remainder of the boys were afraid that we would withdraw the concession, but we did not. The boys have amusements in the winter time. It is not punishment; it is reform to make them good citizens. I only wish some of the District Justices would see for themselves, as the Minister and I have done. We did not condemn the boys because we are all liable to make mistakes. If the Department brought in the Press and gave them an account of the work done, we would not have Deputies making complaints such as were made during this debate. That work is not generally known because the Department has to carry on without any publicity.

I am very glad that the internees have been released. I have never been in favour of internment. I had some difficulty in my time when I had these young men brought before the District Justices in the ordinary Courts. Some Justices said they had no power. Others made political speeches. But we always resolutely refused to allow ourselves to be stampeded by the Press into taking any action other than having those young men tried by the ordinary Courts.

I am glad these internees have been released. I am glad that their jobs are there for them and that they are not being compelled to comply with certain conditions. If people are deprived of their livelihoods they will naturally turn their attention in other directions. I had personal experience of a man who took an active part in a certain organisation some years ago; he told me that if he were deprived of his job he would have no alternative but to go back and join the boys again and either rob or get a living in some other way. Certain people appealed to his employer to forget about the past and to trust this particular individual for the future; that employer has never had any regrets. That man today is in a very good job and he is a very good citizen.

We had certain difficulties. We had to overcome them. The Minister has not had quite the same problem to solve. We had the Press—even the Irish Press—taking advantage of the situation for their own political purposes. I sincerely hope the Minister is correct in forecasting that this foolish behaviour has ceased. Perhaps we are to some extent to blame, for it has been our ambition to maintain the status quo. We should remember now that we have great numbers of our own people working in Britain today and it is through them that we can best bring home the injustice of Partition. Ireland never got any sympathy from a Labour Government in Britain. The deception practised should be explained to every Irish man and woman working in England today. Remember, all these are potential electors. That is the constitutional approach to the abolition of Partition.

Some Deputies have referred to the necessity for driving tests. They seem to think driving tests will cure the present abuses. Recently I read in the Press of a case where an appeal was taken from a sentence imposed on an individual who killed two young girls; the judge held that the sentence imposed was too severe and he reduced it to three years—2½ years when remission for good conduct is taken into account. Roughly, that means 15 months for each death. That is no deterrent where the drunken driver is concerned. Deputies who advocate driving tests should get some statistics from an organisation which insists on driving tests. Many of those who underwent such tests are serving sentences at the moment for various driving offences. Tests are not the remedy. What we want is careful and considerate driving on our roads. There should be a speed limit in all built-up areas. Why people should be allowed to drive at 60 or 70 miles per hour in built-up areas is something that passes my comprehension.

A number of murders have unfortunately occurred. I have every confidence in the Garda, but I think altogether too much publicity has been given to the steps taken by them in an effort to solve these crimes. The Garda may not arrest on suspicion. They must have proof, proof which will stand up in a Court of Justice. We had all the publicity about a bicycle lamp in one murder. After some weeks the lamp was found. People thought it was an important clue, but nothing happened. On another occasion publicity was given to the fact that our police were going to England to interview certain people. Again, this was advance information which might easily put certain individuals on their guard. There was a broadcast looking for an itinerant. If there was less publicity the Garda might find themselves in a better position to cope with the situation. After all, a murderer is not going to give himself away.

With regard to the robberies in an around Dublin, I am convinced that these are the work of a gang and that they are directed by experts who have come in here from elsewhere. The ringleader may appear to be a perfectly innocent, normal citizen walking around Dublin. There must be a distributing centre for all this jewellery and other valuable property taken. It would, of course, help the authorities considerably if people would notify the Garda that their houses will be vacant for certain periods thereby enabling the Garda to keep an eye on these places. There is no use in their coming to the Garda a week or a fortnight afterwards and telling them that, while they were away on holiday, valuables were stolen.

I suggest that since the Minister has very experienced men in the Special Branch, he should transfer some of them to assist the men at present engaged in the detection of robberies. Robberies are bound to occur when there is so much unemployment and the world is so unsettled. There are always people who will take advantage of a crisis to achieve their own ends without work. It gives them an excuse. I am sure the planes and boats at the various termini are kept under observation for "smart boys" who might come across from abroad to join a gang here to carry on pilfering. Many people believe that the men not now engaged on the political side would be able to give some valuable assistance in capturing criminals.

I want to compliment the Minister on the manner in which he is doing a very difficult job. I also compliment his staff. They are not heartless. Every day the Minister and his officials must do the best they can, when they have to weigh in the balance the desire to give relief to prisoners on the one side and protect the State on the other. These are problems which the public are not usually aware of, but I know the Minister and his Department would like to say "yes" in cases where, having regard to their confidential information, they feel bound to say "no". Deputies may accept it that if the Minister is in a position to say "yes", he is only too pleased to do so.

My only regret is that the Minister is not able to give the House a more pleasant report about the matters with which he is concerned. I am sure he feels—as does everybody else—that something must be done to improve the present position in regard to robberies and other crimes. To that end, there must be co-operation by the people. I do not say that the Minister or the Garda will get co-operation in a murder case. The people may not be aware of it and quite often the Garda are put off the track by getting wrong information from people who think they are helping.

I would ask the Minister and the Department to give greater publicity to the magnificent work being done in regard to reformatory activities. Parents should know that the authorities are not against parole and that they can come up and see the children in the homes. Deputies will be glad to hear that the boys have all these amusements and recreations, as well as the opportunity to learn a trade, and that there is no punishment. Punishment only begets crime and we are trying to reform these children and show them that the State is not against them. We want to make them good citizens. I feel that in that way we should be able to do some good work and continue the good work being done already.

I have much sympathy for the Minister when he is not able to give a more favourable report, but it must be remembered that those who commit robberies do not give notice in advance. The Garda cannot be expected to watch every house in Dublin at a particular time. I think the Minister may be assured that the people have every confidence in the Garda. I am delighted to see that in rural areas the Garda are taking an interest in the local social life and are friendly with the people. The people realise the Garda are their protectors and not merely men who are concerned with the punishment of crime. Naturally, the Garda must have the support of the people against the criminals and those who create disturbances by attacking neighbours, firing shots into houses and so on. The Garda are worthy of our encouragement and help and the people should remember that they are Irishmen carrying out their work for an Irish Government.

Mr. Wycherley

My chief reason for speaking is to express disapproval of the reduction in numbers of Civic Guards in villages throughout the country. I expressed this view before when I asked the Minister for Justice why the strength of the Inchigeela station was being reduced from five Gardaí to one. I would not object to a reasonable reduction, but I consider a reduction from five to one altogether too much. One Garda in a station is totally ineffective. The Minister previously said he was quite satisfied with the present arrangement, but I can assure him that nobody else in that area is satisfied. We all know the arrangement: the patrol car in which the Gardaí swoop down into the village at night to see what is going on. These Guards are not looked upon in the same light as the men living among the people; they are not as likely to get information from residents when a crime is committed as Guards who are stationed and living in the area.

I consider it very unwise to substitute the patrol car for the Garda station. Two or three Guards with their wives and families in a village or town help in a small way to maintain the social standard of the area and retard the decline in population. When Guards are on patrol, they use cars and petrol which are foreign products and they are not looked upon as friends of the people to the same extent as the local Guards. I should say that is largely responsible for the large number of crimes remaining undetected through the country. We have had numerous robberies, all undetected, because the Guards had not even a clue as to who committed these offences.

Under the old system, the Guards were at one with the people and could immediately put their finger on the wanted man or at least suspect the criminal in a very short time. I would ask the Minister to consider that aspect of the situation seriously and have the Garda stations properly manned by having at least two or three Guards in even the smallest station. If he wants to economise, he can have an overall reduction of 20 per cent. or 30 per cent., but to single out some areas and practically close down the Garda stations is altogether wrong.

Another point which I should like to bring to the Minister's notice—I did not hear any other public men mention it—is the appointment of peace commissioners. A certain amount of honour is attached to the office of peace commissioner. I do not know what qualification are necessary for appointment. Perhaps when Fine Gael are in power, one should be a member of the Fine Gael Party and, when Fianna Fáil are in power, one should be a member of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. T. Lynch

Bring Fianna Fáil into it first, anyway.

Mr. Wycherley

If we are to honour the position at all, when a peace commissioner dies, his son should be appointed in his place. That would show honour and respect for both the dead and the living. It shows great dishonour to the living if the son of a peace commissioner is not appointed to the post when his father dies. It casts a reflection on the family if the son is not considered suitable to succeed his father in an officer of that kind.

It is a small thing, I agree, but small things in rural areas are looked upon in a big way, and if the people see that small things are not honourably and justly dealt with they will have little faith that the larger things will be done in the right and proper fashion. Really, many small things are big things in the end. I hope in future that the sons of respectable men will get their due reward in that regard.

I am glad the Curragh internment camp has been closed and that many young men have been released. I should like very much that these young men should not be victimised in any way, but rather, that they should be helped to get employment in this country, because if they are forced to emigrate, there will be very little welcome for them in any other country. They are Irishmen, and I feel that as Irishmen they should get every consideration from the Government, from the local authorities and from any other public body in securing the necessary employment—whatever employment they are suitable for and which will keep them busy and occupied and enable those of them who have wives and families to support them.

Mr. Moloney

I am sure that Deputies of all Parties have been somewhat disturbed by the report in the Minister's statement when introducing this Vote of the general upward trend of crime. I refer to indictable crimes which reached the alarming total last year of 16,567 and showed a substantially disturbing increase of 2,530 over 1957. This represents an increase of 18 per cent. in the number of indictable crimes recorded by the authorities during the year under review. The total is made up of several categories, all of which are listed as crimes.

There is one category which may appear to be of no great importance, but which is becoming a rather serious menace in itself. I refer to the theft of pedal cycles, which shows an increase of over 1,000. That increase in itself for one year might not be regarded as too serious, were it not for the fact that in the previous two or three years there was an increase of 800. The time has arrived when drastic action will have to be taken to put this form of crime on the wane.

The theft of pedal cycles is something that might, in itself, appear not to be too serious, but in cities, towns and the bigger centres of population, where many people have to depend on the use of their pedal cycles to take them about their business, thefts of that kind are a serious offence. It is not the amount of financial loss incurred by the owner if the article is not recovered but it is the grave inconvenience caused to him during the period in which the cycle is missing or, for that matter, if the cycle does not turn up at all.

I have paid some attention to the hearing of these cases in the district courts, and the district justices, with very few exceptions, do not appear to me to be inflicting sentences of sufficient severity to discourage this type of offence. Generally speaking, I have noticed that very plausible excuses are put forward by the offenders, and so it generally happens that the justice dealing with the case is inclined to inflict a nominal fine or, where a more severe punishment is required, some type of suspensory sentence. I hope the Minister will, if it is within his power, communicate to the district justices, through the usual channels, the views of Deputies who spoke on this subject, and that they will take the more serious view we expect them to take in that connection.

In the course of his statement the Minister referred to the petitions presented to him during the year with a view to getting a remission of sentence in the case of drunken drivers. I am amazed to learn that there should be such a large number of petitions in this category put forward for his consideration. In dealing with this Vote last year, the Minister went out of his way to make his attitude clear in this regard and one would not now expect petitions of that kind to be coming forward for consideration.

I know, of course, that in the case of every conviction on a charge of drunken driving, the person concerned is usually well able to make a very good case as to why the sentence imposed on him is harsh or, should I say, overharsh in the circumstances. In the hearing of these cases, district justices are, if anything, in my opinion, over considerate to the persons charged. When a Justice imposes a sentence of imprisonment on a drunken driver or revokes his licence, he does not do so lightly. Many serious accidents, bringing about loss of life, are caused by drunken drivers and everybody deplores the large number of fatal accidents taking place every year. Most people, I am sure, are satisfied that the drivers concerned are very often under the influence of drink and thereby responsible for an accident without any reasonable excuse.

It is time that representations to the Minister in this connection, particularly from Deputies, were stopped. If people who are affected in this way believe there are any extenuating circumstances they can get their solicitor or other legal representative to make a case for them to the Minister. A person is entitled to approach the Minister in that way, but making representations through Deputies in these cases attaches too much importance to them and causes a certain amount of difficulty for the Minister. It may be rather serious for a Deputy to suggest that that type of case should be out of bounds as regards representation, but sooner or later the Minister will have to tell the House that he can no longer see his way to receive such representations from Deputies no matter to what Party they belong. The public is entitled to the maximum consideration and protection in such instances. I entirely agree with the Minister's attitude. He has made it clear on more than one occasion that he will refuse to consider these applications favourably and it is not too much to hope that we have seen the last of the line of approach to which I have referred.

The Minister, in the course of his statement, dealt with a number of unsolved murders which have been causing a good deal of public concern in recent months. I am glad the Minister indicated he was satisfied that the fact these murders were unsolved was in no way due to a lack of efficiency on the part of the police. Some people are inclined to believe that the very good record the police have had in solving these major crimes has not been maintained but it should be realised that the circumstances differ in every single case of this nature. I am perfectly satisfied from what I know in this regard that the police have taken all possible steps to bring about detection.

The co-operation of the public can be very valuable in cases of this kind. I should be careful not to say anything which might indicate that the public was not co-operating. I am inclined, however, to think there is a slight lack of co-operation on the part of the public in this connection. In the detection of crime the police have no supernatural power of detection and unless they secure the co-operation of the ordinary man in the street their efforts cannot be expected to be 100 per cent. successful. The people generally are in a state of tension in relation to murders which have been committed, some of which took place several months ago and for which there have been no arrests so far. I am glad to note from the Minister's report that special efforts are still being made and will continue to be made to solve the three outstanding murder cases referred to. I do hope that in a short time the efforts of the police will be crowned with success.

In his reference to the Garda Síochána, the Minister gave the present strength of the Force as 6,479, which is 1,000 less than it was ten years ago. The Minister has told us that during the year 1958, 400 recruits were admitted to the Force. As regards the proposed closing of a number of rural stations I am obliged to agree with those Deputies who disapprove of this policy. I am in entire agreement that a slight reduction could be made in some areas where it is possible to administer the affairs of a district with a man less than was normally there. The policy, however, of reducing the number to just one man in a station is not a good one.

The people generally are law abiding and the relations existing between them and the police are very happy. We cannot depend on a complete observance of the law and the best way to ensure a satisfactory degree of compliance is to have the officers of the law available on the spot to influence the people in observing it. The presence of a number of police officers in rural areas has had a very satisfactory effect. It is intended now to bring about a reorganisation whereby a village which, heretofore, had a Garda strength of three or four will be reduced to one. I am extremely doubtful that that will maintain the same satisfactory results as we have had for a number of years.

Suggestion have been made that these districts be patrolled and policed by motor car and motor cycle squads and that cars fitted with radio devices will give a certain amount of local facilities to the police officers concerned. That might be all right in theory but I am doubtful if it will work out in practice. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that he might consider slowing down this reorganisation programme in so far as its purpose is to reduce to a minimum the Garda personnel in rural villages. People in rural areas are somewhat disturbed that such a proposal is being put into effect. They feel that the local police officers have been available in the past to do many important kinds of work and are there at the beck and call of the ordinary citizen. Under the reorganisation, so far as it refers to those districts that have been scheduled, that service will no longer be available. The people have no personal interest in that matter, other than the fact that they want the general peace and tranquillity that we find in the country at the moment to continue.

I note that it is the intention of the Minister to reduce the strength of the force eventually to around 5,500 men. I am quite sure it is a step in the right direction and that a little general reorganisation will have no ill-effects. However, I feel that the policy of a general reduction in personnel might also be directed to the officership of the Force. I think too much emphasis is being laid on a reduction of the ordinary rank and file members and that no steps seem to be taken to reduce the officer strength of the Force.

With the improved facilities now available in the matter of transport and communication, I feel, personally, that the divisions entrusted to the superintendent could be made larger and that the areas—I think they are counties—under the jurisdiction of the higher officers such as chief superintendents could also be made larger by amalgamating a number of such areas. In other words, I feel that a chief superintendent could nowadays discharge the duties of his office in a satisfactory manner in an area three times as large as was scheduled for him 30 years ago when the Force was first formed. I do not know if this is a matter which the Minister has had an opportunity of examining, but if he has not already considered it, perhaps he will be able to give it some thought during the coming year.

There has been a substantial increase in the Estimate, in so far as the pensions of retiring Gardaí are concerned. It has often occurred to me that we might very usefully consider whether or not some of the Garda personnel who retire in the normal way when they reach the age limit could not continue in the Force for some time longer. Nowadays, a man reaching the retiring age of 60 or 65 is usually a more fit person than a man in similar circumstances 20 or 25 years ago.

Everybody will admit that the vast majority of the members of the Garda who are retiring, even at the age limit, are very fit men and could possibly continue in the Force for two or three years more and give the advantage of the experience they have gained over the years to the public. We find that most of those men when they retire, the ordinary rank and file, look for positions in various walks of life. Quite a number of them succeed in finding positions in some commercial organisation or something of that kind in civilian life. I find that they go to work in those jobs which are very often as difficult—if not more so—as their previous assignments and carry on for nine or ten years. If the Minister is precluded from doing that by the terms of service or contract of the existing members of the Force, then it should be possible to provide that new entrants into the Force would at least have the option, if not the obligation, of serving up to the age of 69 or 70.

On the subject of district justices, I notice that the Minister has now succeeded in finalising the proposed scheme of reorganisation whereby the number of justices has been reduced by five. I think that is a step in the right direction because in recent years the work of the District Court has not been anything like what it was formerly. It should now be possible for a district justice to cover a larger area and to cover a larger number of court sittings than he had been obliged to do heretofore.

I would like to make a suggestion to the Minister in regard to district court staffing. It has come to my notice that when district court clerks want to go on leave—annual holidays or sick leave —generally speaking, no suitable arrangements are in force in the Department to provide substitutes. I understand that the usual procedure is to apply to the district headquarters of the Garda Síochána to have a Garda nominated to carry out the duties of such an office for a temporary period. My information is that so far as the public, and particularly the legal people who are closely in touch with the work of such offices, are concerned, the existing arrangements are not satisfactory. I have been told that the work of a district court clerk is rather involved and that it takes a person who is experienced in that work to act satisfactorily when the court clerk is absent. Would it be possible for the Minister to arrange that substitutes will be available from a panel of existing departmental staff or, alternatively, to recruit temporary officers who have had some training in this work? The general standard of efficiency amongst district court clerks is very high. They are rather jealous of the very fine reputation they enjoy, particularly with the legal profession. In my opinion, it would be preferable to provide substitutes for these officers during periods of absence on annual or sick leave directly from the Department.

I should like to be associated with the remarks of previous speakers in regard to the work of the Adoption Board. That board has carried out very important work in arranging 592 adoptions during the year. The members of the board act in a voluntary capacity and are obliged to give a good deal of their time to the work of the board. They deserve the best thanks of the people for the very efficient way in which they and their officers have handled applications for adoption.

Mr. Lindsay

Having listened to the quasi-repetition of the Minister's speech and the unashamed approbation of everything it contains I find myself in complete disagreement with any suggestion that Garda officers or men should be continued in the service beyond the age which is normally accepted as that at which most people retire. I could hardly envisage that a man over 65 and up to 68—the age recommended for retirement by the last speaker—could effectively chase teddy-boys or escaping burglars.

The time has been reached when we must recognise two things in relation to the question of retirement. One is that when men have spent upwards of 40 years in any service, they have given of their best and whatever advice they have to give, as a result of the experience garnered through the years, must have been collected from them in the course of that time and transmitted to younger men. Secondly, there must be some set age for retirement so as to have the necessary continuity of recruitment of younger people so that there will not ultimately be any gaps that can be filled only by jobs unsuited to the aspirants or by the normal and ready channel of emigration.

A considerable number of young men of superior physique and advanced education are seeking positions in the Garda to-day and anything that would tend to extend the retiring age or to reduce the number of vacancies would be fatal. It would deprive these young men of the chance they so earnestly seek. There are men who are known to me, some of them already in the Force, of such calibre both physically and intellectually as would do credit to any police force in the world. Even with a short training in our police force men gain such experience and distinction as policemen that from the very ranks of our police force they can command inspectorial rank, at least, in the police forces of other countries immediately on interview. That has happened within the last couple of years, to my knowledge, in two cases, where young Guards sought employment in the police forces of other countries and attained very high rank immediately on interview.

There cannot be too high praise for a Department of Justice when it is run strictly on just lines. From my own personal professional experience of the Department of Justice and the care and consideration which they give, not only to practitioners but to persons involved in various kinds of charges, I consider that no praise is too high for them. I can say that of the officials of the Department of Justice and equally of the Guards. That would be the experience of anybody who works close to the police in relation to criminal matters. I am often quite amazed at the thoroughness with which crime is investigated and the pains taken by Garda officers and men in the detection of crime. That is something which the public cannot be told too often in relation to the work of these men.

Of course, there is the old adage that prevention is better than cure. It is a mistake to reduce the number of Garda stations and to leave vast areas unpatrolled by the ordinary Garda on foot or on bicycle, to which we were accustomed for a long number of years. I do not regard the fast car, even when it is equipped with radio apparatus, as amounting to effective patrol. A well-known judge, now retired, a specialist in criminal law, said to me many years ago that no detail was unimportant. I think that with the newly adopted method of patrol details are missed and can very easily be missed whereas the casual nature of the other patrol took in far more than we could imagine.

Neither do I like the idea of reducing Garda stations to one man. That is all right in a compact village where, on the English system, the area for the man's patrol and ultimate inspection is limited. I am thinking of three areas in my constituency where the force has been reduced to one man in each area. In one the position is not too bad. It is situated at Mulranny, between Newport and Achill; it is on a main thoroughfare and the population is pretty closely kept to the main road owing to the geographical nature of the area. But, in the 20 mile stretch from Mulranny to Bangor-Erris, the whole district known as Ballycroy is now to be policed by one member of the Garda. I do not think that is possible, although it is a peaceable area, in which there is no great trouble of any kind. We are all human and trouble can erupt at any time, and I fail to see the effectiveness of one man in a situation such as that. The other area to which I refer is Blacksod, which is a very important centre, a fishing centre, where you have to deal not only with natives but with foreigners from time to time.

Reference has been made to attempted interference with the Guards, designed to prevent the Guards from either doing a positive duty or neglecting to continue with a duty upon which they have embarked. Of course, if that situation were allowed to develop, and if public men by their very acts, either publicly or privately, were to condone the commission of crime by seeking to get Garda officers or men to refrain from taking the necessary action, then we would very soon have a situation where public morale would be undermined and public confidence utterly ruined. I know of some instances of that kind. Fortunately, they are very few and equally fortunately the public representatives concerned have met with the rebuffs to which they were justly entitled and their efforts were of no avail. Of course, that does not mean that success does not attend their efforts from time to time.

I do not know who is responsible for courthouses. It is always a rather vexed question as to whether the Department of Justice gives the O.K. to the local council or if the local council maintains them. However, the Department of Justice should direct its energies towards the courthouses. There are courthouses in my constituency and people who come in and pay their money to either side get very bad value from the point of view of the comforts attaching to the places. They are generally draughty, cold and utterly miserable places in which to spend any length of time.

Before I pass from this question of district courts, there was a point raised by Deputy Moloney regarding the provision of temporary people when district court clerks are either on holidays or are seeking leave. I do not think the question of holidays should arise because the district court clerks would normally be on holidays when the district justices are on holidays. In the event of having to call in somebody to replace a district court clerk temporarily, in my experience, I do not think anybody more competent could be called in at short notice than a member of the Garda Síochána. I have seen members of the Garda doing this work with incredible aptitude and acquitting themselves with distinction. As a matter of fact, I remember one Guard taking the depositions in the preliminary hearing of a murder trial on one occasion and I thought so highly of the manner in which he did it that I made a recommendation concerning him to his superior officer on the case. Therefore, I do not think the Minister need worry to any great extent about the provision of temporary district court clerks. District court clerks are an excellent body of men who apply themselves to their work with great zeal and indeed, for the remuneration they receive, the return is truly remarkable.

In regard to the Registry of Deeds, I have two suggestions to make. One applies only to the solicitors' profession and it has no bearing on my particular work so that I cannot be regarded as asking for any concession for my own branch of the law. At the moment, memorials must be presented to the Registry of Deeds in longhand and on a certain type of parchment. The same is the case with regard to requisitions for negative searches. In Belfast, if I am correctly informed, they have abandoned that system and while they require a certain type of parchment for memorials and requisitions for negative searches, nevertheless they allow them to be typed.

I think that would be a great saving. I think it must be commonplace now and accepted that scrivenery, as known to some of us, and well known to our seniors, has gone to a great extent. The people who engage in that type of work no longer do it in a specialised way and in fact the older scriveners have never been replaced. We now have such rapid advancement in office work and the details of it with regard to shorthand, typing, dictaphones and all the other amenities which science has brought to our aid, that it is rather ridiculous that in a matter of this kind where it is quite frequent, both as regards memorials and requisitions, the old time system should still apply and be compulsory.

We did not hear very much from the Minister about law reform. I know that there was a considerable amount of law reform in progress in the Department over the years and some very admirable work was done in that Department. Speaking from the point of view of the practitioner. I do not think that anything was done so well over the years, even since the beginning of the State, as some recent Bills that have been produced in this House with marginal notes showing stated appeals and particular cases either referred to or overruled. I refer particularly to the Statute of Limitations and such measures.

I wonder when we are to get any sort of draft Bill in relation to the report from the Liquor Commission. It is about time something was done in that regard. I know the Minister will have his difficulties. There are vested interests in every branch of the licensed trade and it may not be too easy to smooth over all the difficulties in his way. Nevertheless, it is high time there was an amendment of the existing law to this extent, that the countryman who drinks in his local public house for six nights of the week should be allowed to do so on Sundays during the ordinary drinking hours. That is the only point I am interested in. I have nothing to say about the bona fide traffic or anything else. I think it would make things so much easier for the Guards, and particularly for the one-man stations which are now tending to become popular.

Much has been said about drunken driving and dangerous driving and I am afraid I must disagree with the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Everett, in regard to a certain case in saying that three years is too little for a motor manslaughter arising from drink. I think three years is a fair slice to take off anybody's life. I thought in the particular instance that the 12 years' sentence given was severe and harsh, when you think that for actual murder in a country like Finland, the maximum sentence is 12 years, with remissions for good conduct. It is very hard to judge in this matter of what is now known as drunken driving. It is very hard to judge, particularly when an accident takes place, as to whether a man may be legally guilty and hard to judge the moral content of his crime. It is something which should be considered by people who have come down hard on somebody when he has got——

Mr. Everett

A man removed a body from the bonnet of his car.

Mr. Lindsay

That is another situation. One can from time to time do things automatically under the influence of drink of which one has no recollection. When one thinks of the vast number of people who are lucky in the matter of drunken driving and while Deputy Dillon's exhortation and that of the Minister that people should behave themselves should be followed, I do think also in relation to this business of driving and driving charges that a great duty devolves upon parents in regard to the instruction of their children on how to use the roads. I am sure most motorists will agree that their hearts come into their mouths at the manner in which little children, who do not know any better, dart out in front of motorists. It is only by skill and good luck that a great many of them are avoided.

I do not quite know what to make of the Minister's statement with regard to Government policy on the use of force, either inside or outside the country by organisations such as that organisation the members of which have recently been released from the Curragh internment camp. For instance, I do not know what situation brought about their release. In the course of ordinary social contact, I met some of them since they were released. In relation to them, apart altogether form the people as a whole, I have made up my mind that internment certainly was not the answer. I am not prepared to criticise it because the Government had at their disposal probably more information than we had in regard to sticking to the rule of law. It is to be hoped that there will be no repetition of the acts or the events which necessitated such action on the part of the Government and that these people will avail of the constitutional methods open to them to make their contribution to the general betterment of the country.

What I said at the beginning, I wish to reiterate at the end. The Guards, as a force, do their job extremely well; the Department of Justice as a Department of Justice does its job equally well. It is only when there is an interference, an interference that is successful, and about which I shall probably have something to say on a later Estimate or probably at a later date this year, that things happen—as I shall show—that tend in the ordinary course of events to destroy public confidence and undermine public morale.

Mr. Corry

The first thing I should like to deal with is the policy of promotion in the Garda Síochána. I have found very extreme dissatisfaction amongst Gardaí of from ten to 20 years' service when they find men with four or five years' service promoted over their heads. In my opinion, that does not tend to the efficiency of the force. When a man with 14 or 15 years' service finds himself passed over, he will say to himself that there is no further room for him and he will either get out altogether or hang on for the pension. I think the Minister should investigate the number of cases of Gardaí under ten years' service who have been promoted to sergeant during the past two or three years and the number of men from ten to 20 years who have been passed over. That is one of the things which, in my opinion, tends to impair the efficiency of the force generally.

I entirely agree with what Deputy Wycherley said in connection with reducing Garda stations and the number of men in them. The taxpayers in general have been put to fairly considerable expense over the past few years providing new Garda barracks throughout the country. It is rather a joke to see barracks built at an expense sometimes of £5,000 to £6,000 now occupied by one man who actually goes astray in it at times.

The squad car, as we know it down the country, is not, in my opinion, an efficient substitute for the three or four Gardaí who used normally be stationed in barracks. In the first place, the Gardaí in the squad cars have not the local knowledge—they are not going to get the local information for the detection of crime—which the ordinary Gardaí have.

I am very much concerned with the delay in the Minister's Department in implementing the report of the Liquor Commission. It is now something like 14 or 15 years since I endeavoured to remedy the injustice done to the rural community by the penal laws which are militating against the rural community. I actually brought in three separate Private Member's Bills for that purpose. I saw each Bill defeated. In fact, I saw a Bill for the opening of rural public houses on Sundays defeated by the members of this House while a Bill to close the houses in the city on Sunday was also defeated. I suggest to the Minister that the sooner he gives me the pleasure of seeing the boys trotting round the lobby to implement something a dozen years too late, the better.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that he should not discuss legislation on the Estimates. The Deputy is asking the Minister to implement a report which would require legislation.

Mr. Corry

I am complaining in regard to a commission set up by this House at public expense in the hearing of witnesses, a commission which sat, I think, for close on 12 months. It was a commission upon which we had the honour of having the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Boland. It practically brought in a unanimous recommendation. That that report should by lying in the Minister's office for close on two years is my complaint. The money for that commission was provided out of the funds of the Department of Justice. The commission were unanimous in their opinion that the present liquor laws were out-moded, out-dated and wrong.

It is wrong that the Department of Justice should have the Garda Síochána enforcing laws which a commission set up by this House found were out-moded and out-dated. We have squad cars chasing around the country visiting every rural public house enforcing laws which are, in the opinion of the commission, wrong, penal and unjust. I suggest that the Minister should bring in legislation to deal with this matter. Some months ago, I put down a question and got a guarantee from the Minister then that the Bill would be introduced last session. To-day, in reply, he does not know when he will bring it in.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already pointed out to Deputy Corry that it is not in order to advocate legislation on the Estimates. He will have to find some other opportunity.

Mr. Corry

I am not advocating legislation. What I am complaining of is that a guarantee was given by the Minister that certain legislation would be introduced for his Department last session and it has not yet been introduced. His reply to-day puts it further away than ever. If there are unjust laws being enforced at present by the Garda——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is again out of order in criticising legislation.

Mr. Corry

I am suggesting that the decisions and the recommendations of a Commission set up by this House for a very definite purpose should be implemented by the Department of Justice and I do not think I am wrong in doing that, on the Department of Justice Vote.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will be out of order on any Vote in advocating legislation, which he is doing.

Mr. Corry

However, I have gone as far as I intend going in this matter. I hope that the Minister will not give me the trouble of having to go down to the Library and prepare another Bill for this purpose. If I am put to the trouble, I will do it. There is no doubt about it.

I do not think that the policy in regard to promotions at present being implemented in the Garda will lead to the efficiency of any force. When a man takes up a position in the Garda as his occupation in life, he takes it up under a very definite implication, namely, that in nine or ten years he will get promotion and will be able when he gets it to keep a wife and family. At present, there seems to be a craze in the Department of Justice for taking the Garda with three years' experience, putting three stripes on his arm, making a sergeant of him, and leaving the old lads to carry on as they were. That would not lead to efficiency anywhere.

Furthermore, the cutting down of the usual strength of the Garda in the local barracks to one or two men will not help in the detection of crime. It is a wrong move and one which will not be effective. Those are the only matters I wish to raise on this Vote and I have no wish to go further on them.

Mr. Sherwin

First of all, I should like to comment on the Minister's remarks about the increase in crime, especially in the increase in juvenile crime, over the last year. He stated that there was no particular reason which he could point out for such an increase. It is obvious that the increase, by reason of the nature of the crime, is due to unemployment. Five-sixths of the increase, he says, is in regard to larceny: and in larceny a large percentage is the theft of pedal cycles. Therefore, it is all quite obviously crime due to the need for funds on the part of the guilty people and quite obviously it is done by persons who are unemployed. Therefore, if we seek a reason, we do not have to go very far to find it. As we all know, there has been no increase in employment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of unemployment does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Sherwin

We know that, but it is to that fact that the increase in crime is due. I only want to refer to the reasons for the increase.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It still does not make it relevant.

Mr. Sherwin

It would be interesting to know how many of those convicted in the last year of larceny were unemployed. The Minister would then be able to know the reason. Young people nowadays go to the pictures and they go to dance halls. They do not wait to be 18 to dance: they dance at 14 and 15. All that requires money. With so many persons unemployed and their children not being able to obtain work, quite obviously not having a penny in their pockets, and wanting pleasure like everyone else, they are tempted to steal. That is the reason. It is no mystery to me. I am not blaming the Minister for that, as it is not his responsibility to create employment. I quite understand that he has the dirty job in the Cabinet.

If athletics were more cultivated, if young people would engage in athletics, where there would be no need for so much cash, that might help towards a solution. Athletic clubs usually do not ask for a fee in the case of a person out of employment. There are many ways of indulging in athletics, where money would not be involved. Where young people go to dances and cinemas, they must have money. Therefore, I hope that encouragement will be given to the cultivation of athletics. All this is a problem for which I have no solution, but this class of crime is definitely due to unemployment, because people have no funds to indulge in that certain amount of pleasure which everybody seeks.

On the question of the wholesale theft of pedal cycles, judging by the number of cycle frames which I see around the city, it is quite obvious that they are stolen for the wheels. If the authorities would use their good offices and ask the manufacturers to stamp the wheels as well as the frames, it might end some of the stealing of bicycles.

On the question of the release of the prisoners, again I do not believe it was the Minister's responsibility. Certainly, it was not his decision either to arrest them or release them. That was a matter of major policy, decided on by the Government and, I may say, in particular by the Taoiseach. If I have any comments to make on that, I will make them on the Vote for the Taoiseach's Department.

I mentioned last year that, in my opinion, there should be extensions for the sale of intoxicating drink by clubs and I still advocate that step. There is a large public, especially visitors, who like to go to late night clubs. I was on the Continent a few times and, though I do not go in for clubs and do not drink, the boys all wanted to go to a night club. That is usually the case with people who travel. I am not saying they want to spend all their time in such clubs but they want to have a look, anyway. Many people who come here like to go to night clubs and I have heard visitors comment that this was a rotten hole because there was nowhere to go. We are trying to encourage the tourist trade but that is their comment.

Last year the Minister said he did not think it advisable, but still there are quite a large number of clubs in this city which sell drink after licensing hours and, in spite of the fact that they are prosecuted, they continue to function and continue to sell drink after hours. The demand is there and these people think they are not committing any grave crime. As I said, I do not drink but I know places that serve drink after hours no matter how often they are prosecuted. I put it to the Minister that it would be much better if he legalised this practice so that the Guards would know where drink is being sold, and so that they can visit the premises rather than have a hush-hush "shebeen" affair carried on. I know places where one can get a drink, perhaps in tea, and where one can get a couple of bottles before the bar is closed. One puts them on the table at which one sits. I would like to tell the Minister that refusing these clubs an extension is not a solution of the problem. I was in the dancing business— not in the night club business—and I know what I am talking about. Naturally, I know the people engaged in the business.

Last year, when speaking on this Vote, I stressed the need for free legal assistance in the courts. It appears that the Minister does not seem to think it necessary. Perhaps he may consider it too costly, but it is my experience that the majority of people, working-class people, cannot afford to engage solicitors or counsel. They are afraid of the legal profession and rightly so, because once one gets into the hands of legal advisers one has to pay pounds and "fivers" every time they nod their heads. The result is that people who are not able to afford more than a guinea are afraid that costs will mount up to four or five guineas. I hold that people do not get justice in the courts when they have no one to represent them because, not knowing the law, not knowing what is relevant, they are at a disadvantage.

It is the job of the justice to judge according to the evidence and, as one side cannot present the proper evidence because the parties concerned have no one to assist them, and cannot cross-examine the other side— which is the most vital part of evidence when you want to win a case—it means quite a lot of injustice is done. I believe there should be free legal assistance, especially for persons who are unemployed and are dependent on social benefits, or whose income is less than a certain amount. I believe that because I have evidence that quite a lot of people who engaged solicitors then found themselves tied up in a knot.

I had one case recently where a person engaged a solicitor and, without her knowledge, the solicitor consulted junior counsel. When she got her bill she was asked to pay ten guineas and she refused to pay it. She contended that she gave the solicitor no authority to engage counsel and the net result was that the woman was going around demented. It is quite easy to get tied up once you go to law, but people have good reasons to go to law. In criminal cases especially, where they have to defend themselves, it is important they have some kind of legal assistance.

Another case in which there is need for legal assistance is when an order is made with costs. People receive a bill of costs, much of which they do not understand and are not able to contest unless they engage a solicitor. Many of them have not the means to engage a solicitor, or are afraid they might add to their costs, and the result is they settle and run themselves into debt though a lot of those costs are outrageously exaggerated. I know that to be true; I know of a case in which a man was asked for £40 costs but, because his friends were legal-minded and challenged those costs, they were reduced to £14. That example shows what people are up against on this question of costs but, unless the costs are challenged, and challenged with the aid of some solicitor, the person concerned is likely to be robbed, putting it purely and simply.

I understand that people will not be allowed to challenge costs themselves but have to engage a solicitor to do it for them. Where they have only limited incomes, they should have the assistance of some legal gentleman to contest the costs so that they will get justice. My experience with a lot of the legal profession is that there is quite a racket when it comes to costs. People should be protected against unjust demands.

As I have said, people who are unemployed and people with small incomes—the average worker with £8 a week—cannot afford legal assistance. Such a person might be able to afford a guinea or so. That is his limit but, if he has had experience of it before— or probably some of his friends have told him—he will not touch a solicitor and will take a chance in court. Such people get a raw deal because they cannot give the proper evidence and are not able to cross-examine.

I know of a case in point which happened a long time ago. An innocent boy was sentenced to one month in Marlborough House. It happened that two children were playing in a street. One threw a squib into a window and set fire to the hangings. Naturally the two boys ran off. Another boy came out to his door to see what the commotion was about. The women had had a row and one of them across the road said, "He did it." The boy charged was innocent. His parents were so poor that they could not engage a solicitor. They did not know about putting their son on the stand or subpoenaing the boy who actually committed the act. Of course there was the evidence of this vindictive woman and the boy got a month in Marlborough House. If there had been a solicitor in the case, naturally he would have had both boys to give evidence.

Innocent and ignorant people do not know procedure and they very often suffer injustice. There should be free legal assistance for certain people, especially in the matter of costs. As I said before, there are too many clever solicitors. There are some decent ones, too, but where there is a temptation to get easy money, many people will succumb to it.

I have another case which I can quote. A solicitor was asked to draw up a will. The old lady died shortly afterwards and when the will was disclosed, the net result was that the solicitor owned the house and a niece who lived there all her life had to get out. I do not know what the law is but that seems "fishy" to me. I was always informed that the person who draws up a will cannot benefit himself. But now I am told the solicitor who drew up the will was left the house. I have the correspondence here and it also states that the solicitor claimed £200 for the assistance he gave.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but the Minister does not seem to have any responsibility.

Mr. Sherwin

The Minister told the House of the wrong-doing of the paupers; it is as well he heard about the wrong-doing of people with money. When we have these gentlemen moralising, it is very hard for those young people to pay any heed to them. It is for that reason I draw the Minister's attention to the facts.

I should like the Minister to keep in mind a racket used by landlords who wish to get rid of a tenant. I am refering to the practice of refusing to accept rent. This is prevalent. I know of a number of cases. I know from experience that poor people cannot hold on to money. I know from experience of the trouble we have over corporation rents. If the collector refuses to take the money one week when there is a "bob" or two short, the following week there is 15/- short. Poor people cannot hold on to money. When property is bought by some new landlord he sets about trying to get rid of all the old tenants not paying an exorbitant rent. He proceeds to refuse to take the rent and, when three or four months have elapsed, demands the rent in full, and the tenant, rather than invite court action, will very often agree to vacate the premises. I do not know what the law is but landlords should be made accept the rent. There should be a penalty if they do not. It is a racket. When about £20 or £30 is due, they ask for it, knowing the money is not there; and so they get rid of the tenant. The tenant moves out, glad to know he will not have to go to court or pay £20 or £30. The landlord achieves his purpose and sets his premises for three or four times the rent formerly paid.

There is one other point to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention. In certain cases a justice makes an order which has a serious effect on the person involved without inviting that person to give evidence. I hold that no order should be made or no judgment should be passed on anyone if the person is not given the opportunity of giving evidence. I refer to the practice in Morgan Place where each year 5,000 persons are arraigned for non-payment of corporation rents or arrears of rent. The place is crammed. The evidence is given by the collector and the order is immediately made.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy again but he is referring to something about which the Minister has no responsibility. The decision of a district justice cannot be criticised and the Deputy seems to be doing so.

Mr. Sherwin

Lots of things should not be said in this House but sometimes it is as well to say them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has been allowed to say a good many things but I am afraid we will have to stop him somewhere.

Mr. Sherwin

It involves 5,000 people a year. I mentioned the matter, Sir, because I thought I had the right, but I shall say no more.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister has no responsibility.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 15 Apr 1959

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Apr 1959