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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 May 1959

Vol. 175 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Defence (Resumed).

D'athógadh an diospóireacht ar an dtariscint seo a leanas:
Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £4,482,600 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun ioctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1960, chun Oglaigh na hÉireann (lena n-áiritear Deontais-i-gCabhair áirithe) faoin Acht Cosanta, 1954 (Uimh. 18 de 1954), agus chun Costas áirithe riaracháin i ndáil leis an gcéanna; chun Costas áirithe faoi na hAchtanna um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940 (Uimh. 13 de 1939 agus Uimh. 2 de 1940), agus faoi na hAchtanna um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939 agus 1946 (Uimh. 21 de 1939 agus Uimh. 28 de 1946); chun Costas i ndáil le Boinn a thabhairt amach, etc.; agus chun Deontais-i-gCabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann (Uimh. 32 de 1938).
—(Aire Cosanta).

I was asking the Minister a question in regard to the provision in this Estimate of £50,000 in respect of postage, phones and telegrams. It is an extraordinary large sum. I shall not dwell further on it, but it is hard to justify it.

I want to refer briefly to the hospital treatment of soldiers' dependants which is down by almost £2,000. That is a portion of the Estimate which should not be reduced. What is responsible for that reduction? Are there now fewer dependants receiving hospital treatment or are more of them having to pay for their own treatment? That is something that should be explained by the Minister for Defence. In the past, free hospital treatment was available for the dependants of soldiers. Are the local authorities now being obliged to pay for the medical and hospital treatment of these people?

I want to make reference to the Red Cross Society. The amount in the Estimate for them is about £2,500. I do not want to criticise the Red Cross Society for the reason that I do not know anything about it. Nobody else in the country seems to know anything about it either. We are told that it exists and we see that functions are held at which certain people are present. I think the House should be furnished with a more detailed account of the finances the Society has in hands. A fabulous sum has gone into the Red Cross Society over the years and there are frequent collections for it.

I should like to know what amount is available to the Red Cross Society, in what loans they have invested the money and what rate of interest they get on it. A good many people are suspicious of the amount of money going into the Red Cross Society and it would be wise if those responsible were made aware of the importance of making available to the general public the details of the financial situation. The people want to know where that money is going and what it is being used for. Is it being used for equipment or what is it for? The Red Cross Society gave valuable service to the country during the Emergency and it seems to me that it could render similar service with regard to civil defence but the financial standing of this society is viewed with suspicion in the country.

I do not desire to say anything about the F.C.A. What I had to say on that matter I said in relation to civil defence. I think that the Force, as at present constituted, is not a great source of strength to the nation. If it was disbanded and its activities transferred to civil defence it would be much better.

I want to deal for a moment with the question of training. As far as the F.C.A. is concerned that whole matter should be reviewed. In many areas where the Force exists there are supposed to be large numbers belonging to it but the parades are poorly attended.

I do not understand why the sum of £10,000 should be in this Estimate for the operations of the Offence Against the State Act, 1940, but I do not want to probe into that. A state of affairs existed in the Curragh some time ago when a number of internees made a break from the Curragh Camp. The Army was ordered out on duty on the main roads and many of the general public travelling from the South of Ireland to Dublin were stopped by those soldiers.

I have no blame for those men. They were doing what they were told to do, but I saw young fellows of between 18 and 20 holding heavy guns faced in the direction of motor cars that were stopped and, through fear, very little would have made them put those guns into use. They were shaking to bits with fear. I never saw anything like it in my life. Worse still was the tone of the language used. They asked: "Where are you going? What is your business? What have you in the boot?" Shots were actually fired that night. I understand that a lorry was fired at.

One case was raised in this House and the Minister has a file from a solicitor in a case. A number of soldiers stood out under a lorry and the driver had to jump on his brakes to avoid them. There was no warning signal given and a motor car which was coming behind smashed into the lorry. There was a serious accident resulting in damage to the car and a doctor had to be called. Through neglect on the part of the Department of Defence, the insurance companies refused to accept responsibility for the damage done and the driver of the car behind the lorry had to pay his own medical expenses and foot the damage to the car. When he protested to the officer in charge the reply he got was: "You got off damned lucky. What business had you driving so closely behind him?" There was no expression of apology. They lost their heads that night through sheer cowardice and excitement.

You do not mean cowardice. You mean excitement.

Excitement I meant.

You cannot talk about cowardice.

He has not displayed it in this House to give him his due.

He has displayed it outside.

If what Deputy O.J. Flanagan says could be regarded as that, I would defend it as quickly——

Surely cowardice can be regarded as cowardice?

Order. This matter does not arise. Deputy O.J. Flanagan's characteristics do not arise on this Vote.

I shall describe it as sheer inexperience. Through sheer inexperience, they were inclined to lose their heads on that occasion. I do not say for one minute that that is casting any great reflection on them. They were given a job to do. The job seemed to rest on the shoulders of fellows who appeared to be so young that they seemed as if they had just left school. They just stood there shivering, watching the lines of traffic as they were held up on that occasion. I do not know where they were but the experienced old warriors were not available on that occasion.

I want to make a protest on behalf of a number of people who were rudely treated on that occasion. It would be much better for the Minister if, instead of encouraging Irish in the Defence Forces, he encouraged a little more manners. I say that in the full knowledge I have of the conduct that took place on the Naas Rd. on the night in question. I do not beg for courtesy very often but I was the subject myself, on my way home from the Dáil, of intrusion by those men. I shall not say any more than that. They should at the very least have endeavoured to be courteous to the people injured in an accident if it had taken place on their own responsibility.

They behaved perfectly.

The Minister was not there. I was.

I am quite satisfied with the way they behaved.

I am not—and that is a matter of opinion here on which the Chair cannot judge. My opinion is as good as that of the Minister.

Who paid for the car? That is the important thing.

The Department of Defence did not. It was an outrage. It is one of the reasons I speak on this debate. I want to let some of the Army Officers know that the conduct of those on the road that night did not reflect great credit as to courtesy so far as those responsible are concerned.

I come now to the subject of the Army Nursing Service. In order to get into that service one requires not alone a good deal of medical and nursing skill but, I am afraid, a good deal of political influence. It is a very important service. At present, it comprises 212 persons. I venture to say that if the files were made available of the people taken into that service in recent years it would be found that there is hardly a single person in that service who had not to have on her personal file letters from influential persons and Fianna Fáil Teachtaí Dála.

How recent?

Would the Deputy go back to 1956 and 1955?

Very recent. Even if I went back to the time of the first Government, it is very wrong that any good Irish girl who is a qualified nurse should have to get a job through political pull if she cannot get it on her merits. In the Army Nursing Service, there are good girls who are first-class nurses, fully qualified in every respect. Nevertheless, unless they had political pull they could not get into that service. In my view, the method of appointment to that service stinks. I make that observation in full knowledge of the position. I have been informed, even by people within that service, that, unless there is a certain amount of political pull, there is no such thing as entry.

A substantial sum is provided for the conveyance of stores, and so on, from the main depôt to distribution at the various units. That is a case in which I think there has been a good deal of overlapping. The Department of Defence would be very well-advised to ensure that, so far as stores, equipment and distribution to the various units are concerned, not alone would there be a little more efficiency but some better method of distribution to the various units concerned.

I see that £15,000 is provided for advertising. That is a very big sum. What is the advertising? I wonder if the £15,000 is required for more of the teddy-boy posters which Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned some time ago— teddy-boy posters that would be inclined to turn young people against being associated with the Army? Whoever was responsible for that poster should be publicly tried in O'Connell Street. That poster was a disgrace. It reflects no credit on the Defence Forces. It is an insult to the future of the Irish Army, to the good old-timers we have in the Army at the present time and to the younger men who are now trying to climb up on the shoulders of the old-timers.

Was the guidance of any of the old high-ranking and experienced Army Officers, who have been associated with the Irish Army since its establishment, sought in respect of such a poster? I want to know if the poster was placed before the Minister first for his approval as a suitable means of encouraging young people to join the Defence Forces. If the taxpayers' money is to be spent on such a poster, it is right that some protest should be made here. Deputy O'Sullivan was too mild in describing it as a teddy-boy poster. It could properly be described as a skit upon the Army. If you cared to, you could describe it as indecent and as a poster likely to bring the Army into disrepute and ridicule.

In my view, the poster was a disgraceful piece of advertising which has cost a good deal of money. I do not know who was responsible for it. I do not know whether the Department get these posters through an advertising agency or whether there is an expert in the Department who gets a bonus for his efficiency as a poster designer. I do not know how it is done but whoever was responsible for the poster in question should be fired forthwith. To have him fired forthwith would be a mild punishment for having the country flooded with an advertisement of that type.

What has been done in the Army about encouraging more athletics— G.A.A., boxing, wrestling? Has any move been made in the Army to ban rugby and soccer? Has any move been made in the Army to discourage those who like soccer from playing it? Has any move been made in the Army to discourage those who like rugby from playing it? We all know very well that the Minister for Defence is a very narrow-minded man so far as the Irish language is concerned. If he wants to shove the Irish language down the necks of the soldiers, that is no reason why he should try to prevent them from being associated with soccer or rugby, if they so desire.

The other evening we all saw a photograph in the Evening Herald of one of the best rugby players in this country. I shall not mention his name now. If an effort is being made in the Army to discourage our soldiers from playing such games as they wish to play, I think it is wrong. The Minister can make an effort to shove Irish down the necks of our soldiers. He can insist on Irish commands being bawled at them as often and as loudly as he likes but I protest at any action by the Minister or his Department to stamp out the playing of soccer or rugby by any member of the Army who wishes to do so. Furthermore, those who attend soccer matches or rugby matches ought not be held up to ridicule in the Army. If any instance of such an occurrence is brought up to my notice I shall table Parliamentary Questions on the matter so that it will be exposed to the country.

The Minister's conduct in shoving the Irish language down the necks of the personnel of the Army is I think interfering with the Constitutional right of the citizen.

That is not right.

The Irish language has been shoved down their necks.

It has not.

I shall leave that to the members of the Defence Forces. I cannot describe myself as a champion of the Irish language because I do not like compulsion.

Nor anything else Irish, including the Irish Army.

I do not like compulsion; I detest compulsion in any shape or form. I feel that if you want to teach Irish or to encourage Irish you should leave it to themselves, with a little bit of encouragement, but do not try to compel them. Certain Army Officers try to get into the good graces of the Minister by displaying the Fáinne and greeting him in Irish—"Fáilte rómhat", agus mar sin de. That is making an entire farce and codology of the whole setup.

Does that not suit the Deputy?

Does not what suit me?

To have the language made a farce of. Is that not what the Deputy wants?

No. That is what you are trying to do.

Did the Deputy not say a minute ago that he hated the language? We all know you hate everything Irish.

A Cheann Comhairle, I am afraid the Minister is endeavouring to twist what I said. I said I hated compulsion.

The Deputy said he hated the language—that he disliked the language.

I hate compulsion of the Irish language and I do detest and dislike compulsion of the Irish language. That is what I said and that is what I want recorded.

It is not.

If the Minister tries to twist what I am saying, older and wiser and more experienced Ministers than the Minister for Defence tried it in this House over the last 16 years and did not succeed.

What the Deputy said was that he disliked the language.

They did not succeed.

The Deputy said he disliked the language. There is no need to say it. We all know he does.

I dislike compulsion. I am against compulsory Irish. I have told my constituents that I was against it. I would fight an election against it and venture to say that I would win an election on compulsory Irish because the people do not want it any more than the members of the Defence Forces want it thrown upon them either. I want to issue a warning to the Minister not to put any restriction on the rights of members of the Defence Forces to play rugby, soccer or cricket. They should be permitted to do so and there should not be a certain clique organised in the Army for the purpose of being the Minister's Irish Ireland confederates to point their fingers and say, "Here you are in an Irish Army, encouraging foreign games and encouraging this, that and the other." It takes a good man to play rugby or soccer or to play on the G.A.A. field or to play 18 holes of golf or to participate successfully in any sport. Why should one be so narrow-minded as to deprive soldiers of participating in any sport they wish?

I feel that I would be wrong to refer to Army pensions and Service medals because these matters will come up on another occasion. I was impressed by Deputy Sherwin when he referred to the erection of a munition factory. The Minister for Defence would not remember the time when it was one of the promises of the Fianna Fáil Government that a munition factory would be established. Like all the other promises they ever made, it has faded out and been forgotten. I do not see the necessity for a munition factory because if any munitions are wanted, they can be easily got by Deputy Briscoe this time as he got them before.

Pádraig Ó Dubhlaoich

Ar an Meastachán so nil fúmsa labhairt ar pholasaí mar níl aon eolas agam air. Ach, ba mhaith liom rud éigin a rá faoi lucht an Airm agus na coinníollacha atá ann. Tá rudaí ann gur féidir linn cógháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire agus le lucht na Roinne, as a bhfuil á dhéanamh aca, mar shompla, ar son na Gaeilge san Arm agus ceangal níos dlúithe a dhéanamh idir an tArm agus an Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil agus, freisin, Scoil Printíseach an Airm. Ach, tá cúpla cúis ghearáin ag lucht an Airm, go mór mhór maidir le hardú céime agus tá míshásamh san Arm faoi sin agus, mura mbíonn lucht an Airm sásta, is cuma Arm ann nó as. Ba mhaith liom, má's fíor go bhfuil aon rud ag cur isteach ortha sa tslí sin, go ndéanfaí rud éigin chun an scéal, a leigheas.

Maidir leis an éalódh ón gCurrach, ní aontaím ar chor ar bith lenar dhúirt an Teachta Ó Flannagáin. Bhí mise ar an mbóthar abhaile an oiche chéanna agus cuireadh stop liom naoi n-uaire agus, idir fhir agus oifigí, bhí gach duine béasach, deamhúinte. Ní aontaím ar chor ar bith lenar dhúirt an Teachta.

I should like to refute the allegations of Deputy O.J. Flanagan from my own experience of my journey home on the night of the escape from the Curragh. Between Kilcullen and Athy, I was held up eight or nine times in a distance of about 14 miles and I can pay tribute to the men and officers who held me up for their courtesy and civility. There was no question of ramming a gun through the window of the car or anything like that. It is most unfair to give the description that Deputy O.J. Flanagan has given of the holds-up that night.

I said that there are some matters of complaint in the Army, the principal one that I have heard being with regard to the question of promotion. Rightly or wrongly, the feeling is abroad in the Army that some group, either within or without the Army, is in some way using influence with regard to promotions. Whether that is correct or not I cannot say but if that fear could be dispelled it would be to the advantage of the Army personnel and to the working of the Department of Defence. Even though the Army is becoming more and more mechanised, there is always the human element and if the personnel of the Army are not satisfied we will not get the co-operation and service that we should get.

The officers of the First Line Reserve have a genuine cause of complaint. The Minister may be looking into the matter because there was a question asked about it on a previous occasion in the House. If it is possible to do anything in that regard, it should be done.

Another matter on which I hear complaints from time to time is the question of married quarters for serving personnel. I do know that efforts were made to improve conditions on the Curragh by the erection of a new housing scheme there and the transfer of those who were in A quarters to B quarters or from B quarters to C quarters, and giving them better conditions there, but something further could be done in that regard.

I should like to know from the Minister if he has had any report from the committee that was set up to deal with the improvement of Curragh grasslands. The Department of Defence handed over some land to the Department of Lands for the relief of congestion in the area or for the use of migrants there and I should like to know if anything more could be done in that line by giving over some of the lands that might not be needed for defence purposes, while not interfering with racing interests in the Curragh or those who have sheep claims in the area.

There are a couple of other matters about which the Minister may be able to do something. The Naas Urban Council were negotiating about houses at the Apprentice School. I do not know whether that would be a solution of a problem that exists, but it might relieve housing needs to some extent if these houses were returned to the urban council.

It would be of tremendous benefit if agreement could be found in relation to the vocational school at the Curragh. The Minister and his Department have shown themselves to be interested in education in the Army. From that point of view, the difficulty between the vocational education committee and the Army authorities should be overcome; a solution of the difficulty would be helpful and would contribute to the good feelings which exist as between the ordinary people in Kildare and the Army.

I should like to refer to the question of the national school in the Curragh. I understand it comes under the aegis of the Department of Defence. During the coming Summer vacation, the school is to be decorated and necessary repairs carried out. The school is at the moment overcrowded and huts are being used to help solve the problem of overcrowding. While these huts may not be dangerous, I do not think they are suitable for the purpose for which they are being used. Huts ought not to be used in place of proper school buildings.

I am glad the Minister and his Department have decided on a closer liaison between the F.C.A. and the Regular Army. That is an appreciation due to the F.C.A. in return for the services they have given. I should like to see this purely voluntary force getting the best possible conditions and adequate recognition of the importance of the work they are doing. Those who join the F.C.A. are mainly young lads just out of school. If conditions are made sufficiently attractive, they may be induced subsequently to join the Regular Army. From that point of view, the conditions under which they carry out their courses are important.

I am glad to note the effort being made to promote the use of Irish in the Army. I do not agree with Deputy O J. Flanagan that this is again compulsory Irish; neither do I subscribe to the view that it is doing harm to the Irish language. I was very pleased recently to be told by an officer in charge of a corps in training that the recruits had no difficulty in following commands in Irish and in doing their course of training through Irish. I asked him if he had specially picked men and he said they were just ordinary lads with a national school education. I regard that as a high tribute to the work being done for the language and a tribute to the people in the Army that they are able to do their courses through Irish and those under them have no difficulty in understanding what is required of them.

The baby of the Army is the apprenticeship system introduced within the past few years. Technicians are trained at Baldonnell, in Naas and in the Signal Corp School at the Curragh. Tribute is due to those responsible for this work. The school I know best is the one at Naas. Commendation is due to those who have co-operated to make this school a success—the trade unions, the vocational education authorities and the Department of Defence. Likewise, those who pick the boys are worthy of a well-deserved tribute. I do not know whether they are selected by the Army or by some Civil Service board. Wonderful work has been done in selecting the type of young fellow admitted to the school. The conduct of the boys is excellent. Complaints have been very few. This reflects admirably not only on the boys themselves but also on those in charge of the boys and those who selected them, in the first instance.

The people of Kildare have a high regard for the Army. There is, admittedly, an odd black sheep, but, on the whole, the officers and men are very good. They have taken their place in the life of the community and many of the cultural and social activities in the county are due in large measure to Army personnel.

First, I should like to compliment the Minister, his Department and the Army. I was more than astonished at Deputy O.J. Flanagan taking advantage of this House to criticise soldiers for doing their duty. I thought his conduct most ungentlemanly. I am, of course, only too well aware that the Deputy can err in many respects, but I did not think he would ever stoop so low as to criticise soldiers for doing their duty. It is a pity public men should descend to that sort of vilification. I doubt if a trained soldier would suffer from nerves when instructed to go out and, in the course of his duty, stop a car on the public road. I cannot conceive of any danger whatsoever in such a set of circumstances.

I want to compliment the Minister, too, on introducing vocational education into the Army. I am very interested in vocational education. Our Army is small. If possible, I should like to see it better paid. I should like to see an improvement in Army conditions and barrack life generally. I should like to see pensions increased. In fact, I should like to see an Army of which every soldier would be delighted to be a member. I should like to see grievances eliminated. While there are a number of excellent officers in the Army, there are a few who lack the requisite gift of leadership. An officer who can lead men and command their obedience by his leadership is an asset not only to the Army but to the country.

Some soldiers living in my constituency have a few grievances. They feel that barrack life has not been improved very much. Provided he gets assistance from the Department of Finance, the Minister could over the years, try to improve the living quarters of the ordinary soldiers and the married soldiers. An improvement in that line will lead to a contented Army and will encourage a better type of soldier to enlist.

The importance of vocational education is something which cannot be over-stressed because when a soldier is trained and can carry out his ordinary duties, he should be encouraged to do a course in a vocational school in one subject or another. If he does so, he will be in a position to rehabilitate himself in civilian life when he leaves the Army. We could raise the standards of the soldiers by giving them that encouragement. I again congratulate the Minister on the introduction of vocational classes. I believe he will have the backing of all members of the House in developing that training more and more, because it will be to the advantage of the country, as well as to the advantage of the soldier.

Another matter to which I was asked to refer was the salaries of captains, and commandants who hold executive ranks. A married commandant with five children gets approximately £1,068 while a married higher executive officer with five children in the Civil Service gets £1,421. The Army feel, since they have to retire at 51, that it is time the scale of pay of the executive officer in the Army was brought nearer to the scale of pay of the executive officer in the Civil Service. That is a matter, of course, for Government decision, and it would cost some money. I have with me a long detailed document which I do not propose to go into now, but the whole matter should be examined with a view to arriving at a more equitable salary scale as between the two. The Minister did not create these conditions. They were already there when he took office.

I have also been asked to refer to the pre-1938 medical officers. They are: one colonel, seven lieutenant-colonels and six commandants. I understand that medical officers can serve until they are 65 years of age but some of them feel they should have the option of retiring at 64 and that they should get two years' pay, as do some of the other officers. I understand there is only a small number involved. I ask the House to consider that matter since when one section of the Army gets a concession, other sections feel they are entitled to it also.

Another question about which representations have been made to me concerns officers on the Reserve. Some of them have been on the Reserve for a long time. I have discussed this with the Minister on previous occasions. It is a big problem, but, nevertheless, it is worthy of consideration because a Reserve officer who gives loyal and faithful service for a number of years feels that he should be raised to the rank of captain. I am sure the Minister is examining this problem, so I shall not deal with it any further.

I was delighted to hear that money is being provided to buy better horses for the Army. I believe our Army horses were the show-window of our country and I am sure everyone, no matter what his political views are, will agree that we should at least try to have the very best possible horses for international jumping. They help to build up the esteem in which our country is held abroad and, of course, they help our export trade in horses. Money spent in that direction is money well spent. If our jumping horses abroad are bad, they do more harm than good to the country and the industry, so I am very glad to hear from the Minister that steps have been taken to get better horses and to have them trained properly. They and the personnel of the jumping teams will be worthy to bring home the honours. We very much appreciate the work they have done in the past, and we hope they will succeed in bringing more honour to our country in the future. Finally, I want to thank the Minister and his Department for the courtesy we have received at their hands during the year.

I have many points listed here on which I proposed to speak, but which have already been dealt with by other speakers, so I shall content myself merely with dealing with one or two of what I regard as the principal items. In doing so, my intention is to add to what has already been said by previous speakers.

The recruiting drive for the Defence Forces, under the new arrangement, is something that was well received in the House. The only appeal I make in the short time at my disposal is that the recruiting campaign should now be prosecuted in a more energetic and vigorous manner than in the past. There are many sources of recruitment which could very usefully be taken in hand. I refer particularly to the vocational schools and the secondary schools were boys of military age are about to leave school and go out into the world to take up their positions in life. At that age, it is very important that young boys should be approached and enticed to go into the Army. It is a sort of transition period in their lives, and at that juncture they should be dealt with on the lines I have suggested.

The Army Band was referred to by one or two Deputies and I had some notes made in that connection. I had the experience of the Southern Army Command Band coming to my town some time ago, where they gave a number of recitals in the F.C.A. hall. I attended one of these recitals and was very impressed by the manner in which the band performed. A large number of people in the town were also very impressed, but I feel that the Army Band and the School of Music in the Army are things the people know very little about, and the fact that the Band went through the country on what was known as a goodwill mission was a step in the right direction. Quite a number of people came to me afterwards and said it was my duty as a Deputy to bring to the Minister's notice that the goodwill mission which the band undertook on that occasion was long overdue.

Furthermore, one party, who seemed to have some knowledge of music, suggested to me that the Department of Defence would be very well advised to consider sending the Band from time to time to seaside resorts and to certain social functions at which they could give public recitals. I do not know whether any steps have been taken in that direction already, but I wish to avail of this opportunity to recommend the suggestion to the Minister for his earnest consideration.

With regard to civil defence, I must say I have to agree, to some extent, with Deputy O.J. Flanagan in the references he made in that connection. It is deplorable that the people as a whole do not seem to be taking this question seriously. One would imagine that our people have no facilities for receiving news from abroad because at the moment we seem to be completely easy with regard to this problem. I often find it is dealt with in local authorities as a sort of superfluous item, and very little provision seems to be made for it, on the ground that the rates of local authorities are already above the capacity of people to pay. While we all agree that is so, at the same time, we must examine what civil defence means and, moreover, examine very particularly the apparent necessity for it at the present time.

In the course of his speech introducing the Estimate, the Minister dealt with the problem to some extent and, as far as his Department is concerned, it would appear they have taken the necessary initiative. I am sorry to feel, however, from the results of the campaign that has been conducted by the Department that there is not the measure of public co-operation forthcoming which there should be. I do think that local authorities could give considerable assistance in this connection and I suggest that the Minister, through the Director of Civil Defence, should follow up a campaign that has already been initiated, whereby films are shown.

Public meetings should be held in the bigger centres of population, and people should be told how necessary it is that we should at least prepare on the lines of the civil defence programme which the Government have recommended to us. I hope more effective steps will be taken in that connection during the coming year. It is a vital necessity and we cannot deal with it soon enough.

Is féidir liom mo bhuíocas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí uile a labhair ar an Meastachán seo, ach duine amháin. Thaispeáin siad uile, ach an duine seo, go raibh ard-mheas acu ar na Fórsaí Cosanta, ar an Slua Muirí, na Buan-Óglaigh, an cúltaca (céad líne), agus lucht an Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil.

Sin mar is ceart agus is cúis áthais domsa gur mar sin a bhí sé le linn na díospóireachta sa Dáil, go raibh gach uile dhuine ag tabhairt moladh do fhorsaí na tíre, agus gur mar sin a bhí na hóráidí uile anseo. Bhí anmheas fosta maidir le cúrsaí eile na Roinne.

Bhí sé soiléir gur theastaigh ó na Teachtaí uile cabhair a thabhairt don Arm agus don Roinn Cosanta maidir leis na cúrsaí go léir atá ar láimh acu.

Rinneadh cuid mhaith tagairtí don iarracht atá ar siúl faoi láthair chun úsáid na Gaeilge a leathnú i measc muintir an Airm agus, maidir leis an ní sin, bhi gach uile dhuine a labhair i bhfhábhar na gluaiseachta ach amháin an Teachta céanna, an Teachta Ó Flannagáin. Mar is eol do chách, is mar sin a bhíos an scéal leis an Teachta sin i gcónaí, maidir le cúrsaí Gaeilge, agus cúrsaí náisiúnta.

Is cúis áthais domsa go bhfuil dímheas ag teacht ar an Aire ag an Teachta Ó Flanagáin toisc na gluaiseachta sin mar, nuair a bhíonn sé im aghaidh, sílim go bhfuilim ar na líntí cearta. Maidir leis an dímheas a chaitheann sé ar na saighdiúirí, is féidir linn a thuiscint go bhfuil gach rud ceart san Arm. Sílim fein, mar dúirt mé, nuair a chaitheann sé dímheas ar mhuintir an Airm go bhfuil gach rud ina cheart.

Maidir leis an iarracht atá ar lámha leis an teanga a chur chun chinn, sé mo thuairim féin go bhfuil ag éirí go measartha maith leis, agus go dtiocfaidh leathnú mór ar úsáid na Gaeilge amach anseo. Tá sé róluath a rá go bhfuil ag éirí go fíormhaith leis an ngluaiseacht ach tá súil láidir agam go n-éireoidh leis. Maidir leis sin, is mian liom a rá gur chabhraigh oifigigh an Airm, sean is óg, liom san obair thábhachtach sin, agus ba chúis áthais dom spiorad na saighdiúirí a fheiscint san obair sin.

Ghlacadar leis an dúnghaois chun an teanga a leathnú go fonnmhar agus táim cinnte go bhfuil siad ag déanamh a ndícheall. Tá an teanga á múineadh anois sna scoileanna le beagnach 40 bliain anuas agus ba chóir go bhféadfaí an teanga a leathnú i measc na bhFórsaí Cosanta.

Táim buíoch de na Teachtaí a labhair ar an ábhar seo. Bhí moltaí maithe ag cuid acu le tabhairt dom. Mhol cuid acu go ndéanfaí iarracht ar an leathnú seo a chur i measc comhaltaí an Fhórsa Chosanta Áitiúil, agus déanfar é sin chomh maith agus is féidir é. Bhí tuairim shuimiúil ag an Teachta Mac Cárthaigh. Mhol sé campaí samhraidh don F.C.A. a chur ar bun sna Gaeltachtaí, agus geallaim dó go ndéanfaidh mé iniúchadh ar an gceist sin agus, más féidir é, beidh mé toilteanach é a dhéanamh.

Bhí orm bheith amuigh ón díospoireacht ar feadh tamaill bhig agus níor chualas an méid a bhi le rá ag an Teachta Ó Domhnaill ach deirtear liom gur labhair sé go láidir i gcoinne na dunghaoise seo agus nár theastigh uaidh go mbeifí ag leanúint ar an úsáid i measc na bhfórsaí cosanta, agus go raibh sé ag clamhsán freisin i dtaobh na bhfocal ordaithe a bheith í nGaeilge. Is mar sin a bhi na focail ordaithe i gcónaí. Bhí baint agam féin leis an Arm roimh an gCogadh agus bhí mé san Arm i rith na hÉigeandála freisin agus bhí na focail ordaithe in úsáid as Gaeilge i gcónaí. Ni raibh aon deacracht ag baint leis sin agus níl aon athrú tagtha ar an scéal maidir leis sin. Tá sé fíor a rá go bhfuil iarracht á dhéanamh ar úsáid níos mó ná san teanga a fháil san Arm, agus tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leis.

Rinne cuid mhaith de na Teachtaí freisin trácht ar an gcosaint shibhialta agus tá áthas orm go raibh an méid sin suime ag na Teachtaí sa cheist thábhactoch seo. Gabhaim buíochas leis an iar-Aire as ucht an chabhair a thug sé don ghluaiseacht seo chun córas cosanta sibhialta fiúntach a chur ar fáil sa tir. Bhí an scéal céanna fiú amháin ag an Teachta Ó Flannagáin, agus d'aontaigh sé leis an méid atá deánta ar an gceist seo. Ní féidir aon mhilleán chur air sa chás seo. Bhí sé go láidir i bhfábhar na cosanta sibhialta.

Rinne an Teachta Mac Cuinneagáin tagairt don cheist faoi chreidiúint a thabhairt do ath-shaighdiúirí a bhí ag iarraidh postanna sa Stát Sheirbhís. Níl sé ceart a rá ná tugtar creidiúint ar bith dóibh. Tugtar, ach tá athrú déanta le cúpla bliain anuas. Tugtaí creidiúint do ath-shaighdiúirí ina seirbhís leis na Fórsaí Cosanta agus rinneadh é sin ó am na hÉigeandála anuas go 1956. Sa bhliain sin tháinig athrú ar an scéal agus d'ordaigh Rialtas na huaire sin go ndéanfaí an t-athrú seo agus as san amach ní raibh an chreidiúint sin le fáil ag athshaigdiúirí ach ar feadh dhá bhliain tar éis a seirbhís mhíleata a chríochnú agus aoinne a bhí i dteideal an chreidiúint sin a fháil níor bhfholáir dó 5 bliana ar a laghad a bheith caite aige insna Fórsaí Cosanta.

Mar a dúras, nuair a tugadh an scéim seo isteach i dtosach go díreach i ndiaidh na hÉigeandála, b'fhuirist aontú an Rialtais agus aontú na ndaoine i gcoitinne d'fháil, ach níl an méid céanna buíochais i gcroíthe na ndaoine agus a bhí an t-am sin, agus níl sé chomh héasca dul ar ais go dtí an socrú a bhí ann roimhe seo. Tá mé ag féachaint isteach sa chás, áfach, agus más féidir liom socrú níos fearr a dhéanamh do na hath-shaighdiúirí déanfaidh mé é. Tugadh an tosaíocht chéanna a tugadh d'iarchomhaltai de na Buan-Óglaigh do na fir a thug seirbhís mhíleata sa tréimhse 1916-1923 agus ar deonadh boinn fhianais nó sheirbhíse ginearálta dóibh agus iad ag lorg na bpost seo.

Bhí ceist eile ag an Teachta Mac Cuinneagáin faoin laghdú sa mhéid a íochadh i mbliana le Comhairle Chontae Thir Chonaill mar shíntiús in ionad rátaí i leith Dún Líonáin. Níl an meíd céanna á íoc againn anois. Maidir leis na rátaí, is í an Oifig Luachála atá i mbun an ghnótha sin. Sé an rud a thárla ansin ná gur siar i 1956 deineadh athscrúdú ar an scéal seo go léir. Dá bhárr sin iniúchadh an sceál ó thaobh na húsáide a bhi á baint as gach post míeata sa Stát agus cuireadh an toradh in iúl don Oifig Luachála. Is fíor go bhfuil gléasraí míleata sa Dún ach níl na háitribh uile ann in úsáid agus ní foláir nó go bhfuil an laghdú ar mhéid an tsíntiúis in ionad rátaí ar comhréir leis an méid áitreabh nach bhfuil in úsáid san áit. Mar a dúras, áfach, is é an Oifig Luachála atá i mbun an ghnótha sin agus níl aon dul as.

Deirtear, maidir le Dún na nGall, nach bhfuil siad ag fáil an deontais chéanna. Ní féidir linn áitribh a dhéanamh d'aon ghnó chun cabhair a thabhairt do chomhairlí contae. Má tá aon ghearáin maidir le méid an tsíntiúis anois, ba cheart na gearáin sin a dhéanamh leis an Oifig Luachála. B'fhéidir go bhfuil botún á dhéanamh acú ach ní dóigh liom féin go bhfuil.

Ceist eile a chuir an Teachta Liam Mac Cuinneagáin ab ea ceist mar gheall ar árachas breac-dhíomhaointis nó "ama fhluich," mar a thugtar air de ghnáth. Is amhlaidh atá an scéal faoi sin mar a leanas. Faoi alt a 5 den Acht féadfaidh an tAire Leasa Shóisialaigh, ach é a bheith sásta i dtaobh rudaí áirithe, deimhniú eisceachta a thabhairt amach i leith aicme ar bith lena mbaineann an tAcht. Is iad na rudaí nach foláir don Aire bheith sásta ina dtaobh ná:

(a) gur buan-fhostaíocht fostáiocht na haicme sin daoine, ag feachaint do ghnáth-chleachtadh an fhostóra, agus

(b) ná baintear éinní as pá na haicme sin daoine mar gheall ar aimsir do chailliúint de dheasca doinninne, agus

(c) go dtagann de thosca eile fostaíocht na haicme sin daoine nach gá daoine den aicme sin a árachú faoin Acht.

Cuireadh an scéal seo maidir le hoibritheoirí sa Roinn Cosanta faoi scrúdú. Bé toradh an scrudú sin ná nach raibh siad i dteideal an eisceacht a fhail. Níl aon rud is féidir liomsa a dhéanamh mar gheall air.

Rinne roinnt Teachtaí eile, freisin, a labhair as Gaeilge, tagairt do cheist na hiascaireachta. Labhair an Teachta Mac Cuinneagáin faoina thábhachtaí atá sé an chosaint is fearr is féidir linn, a thabhairt don tionscal iascaireachta sa tír seo. Sin é mo thuairimse ar an scéal freisin. Ba mhaith liom an chosaint is fearr is féidir linn a thabhairt dóibh agus táimid á dhéanamh sin chomin fada agus is féidir linn faoi láthair.

Mar is eol do Theachtaí, níl ach trí báid againn agus ní féidir leo bheith i ngach áit san am céanna ach déanaimid ár ndícheall chun an chosaint cheart a thabhairt. Sílim go n-éiríonn linn é sin a dheanamh sách maith. Maidir le roinnt de na gearáin a gheibhimid mar gheall ar thráiléirí ó thíortha eile a bheith ag obair lastigh don teorann trí mhíle, ní bhíonn siad go léir ceart. Uaireanta ní bhíonn eolas ceart ag na daoine a dhéanann na gearáin sin. Nuair a fhéachann muinitir na Seirbhíse Cabhlaigh isteach sa scéal uaireanta gheibheann siad amach nach bhfuil an dií á briseadh ag na tráiléirí sin ar chor ar bith.

Labhair an Teachta Mac Cuinneagáin freisin faoi cheist na teorann trí mhíle agus bhí in aigne aige gur cóir í a leathnú amach go sé mhíle slí. Ní ceist í sin donn Roinn Cosanta. Rud eile adúirt an Teachta go mba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dó dúirt sé go mbeadh sé níos fusa an chosaint is fearr a thabhairt dá leathnófaí an teorainn go sé mhíle slí. Níl sé sin fíor. Ní mar sin atá sé ar chor ar bith. Bheadh sé i bhfad nios deacra teorainn sé mhíle slí a chosaint ná an teorainn trí mhíle slí atá againn faoi láthair.

Is féidir liom aontú leis an moladh a tugadh don F.C.A. Níl aon mholadh ró-ard dár féidir a thabhairt don Fhórsa sin. Tá siad ag tabhairt seirbhís thábhactach don Stát agus gheibheann an Stát an tSeirbhís sin go han-saor. Tá caighdeán an-árd ag an bhFórsa sin. Bhí an caighdeán chomh hárd sin go raibh ar ár gcumas i mbliana iad a chur ar an gcéim chéanna leis na buan-óglaigh agus tá an scéim chun iad a thabairt isteach ar an gcéim chéanna leis na buan-óglaigh ag dul ar aghaidh. Tá muid buíoch freisin do na Teachtaí sin a labhair ar an F.C.A. agus as na moltaí a thug siad don Fhórsa sin. Rinne cuid acu tagairt do na héadai a bhíos le caitheamh acu. Ba mhaith liomsa, freisin, iad a dhéanamh níos fearr, ach ceist an-deachair í sin. Rinne mé tagairt, freisin, do champaí samhraidh.

Labhair roinnt Teachtaí mar gheall ar an scoil do phrintísigh I Nás na Ríogh agus i mBaile Uí Dhomhnaill agus ar an traenáil atá a thabairt don Chór Comharthaíochta sa Churrach. Aontaím leis an méid a dúirt na Teachtaí faoi na scéimeanna sin. Tá traenáil an-thábhachtach agus anluachmar á thabhairt do na buachaillí sna háiteacha sin. Molaim do Choistí Gairm-Oideachais suim do chur ins na scéimeanna sin. Dhein Teachta éigin tagairt do chearcaláin a chur amach. B'fheidir go mba mhaith an rud é sin a dhéanamh ach tá fhios ag na Teachtaí go gcuirtear fógraí sna páipéirí gach bliain ag iarraidh iarrthóirí do na scéimeanna sin agus níl móran deachrachta ann chun an líon iarrthóirí is gá a fháil. Tá mé cinnte go dtugann na múinteoirí sna scoileanna gairm-oideachais aire do na fógraí sin agus go gcoimeádann siad faoina mbráid iad agus go n-innsíonn siad do na scoláirí go bhfuil iarrthoirí á thabhairt isteach. Is mór an trua nach féidir linn a thuilleadh a thabhairt isteach mar, faoi mar adúras cheana, tá traenáil an-thábhachtach á fháil ag na daoine sin. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir liom aon athrú a dhéanamh ar an scéim sin faoi láthair.

Labhair roinnt mhaith Teachtaí mar gheall ar an mBuíon Ceoil san Arm. Tugadh ard-mholadh dóibh. Bí na Teachtaí go léir i bhfábhar an Bhuíon Cheoil a chuir amach ar cuairteanna ar fud na tire, níos mó ná mar a dhéanann siad, i dtreo go mbeadh caoi ag an bpobal i gcoitonne iad a fheiceáil agus go ndéanfaí bolscaireacht don Arm sa tslí sin. Tógtar isteach daoine sa Bhuíon Ceoil sa talí chéanna ina dtógtar isteach printísigh i mBaile Uí Dhomhnaill agus i Nás na Ríogh. Tógtar isteach iad mar bhuachaillí óga. Dúirt mé nach bhfuil aon deacracht ann iarrthóirí phrintísigh a fháil ach ní mar sin atá an scéal ag an mBuíonn Ceoil. Tá sé deachair go leór iarrthóirí a fail don Bhuíon Ceoil. Ba mhaith liom go ndéanfadh Teachtaí aon rud is féidir leo chun níos mó iarrthóirí fháil don scoil cheoil, agus dá bhféadfaidís aon rud a dhéanamh chun eolas ar an scoil a leathnú i measc na mbuachaillí ina ndáilcheantair féin, bhéinn buíoch díobh ach é sin do dhéanamh. Cuirfear fógraí sna páipéir, freisin, maidir leis sin.

Rinne an Teachta Ó Dúbhlaoich tagairt do ghearáin atá ann maidir le hárdú céime san Airm ach ní raibh sé ró-chruinn maidir le céard a bhí i gceist agus nílim cinnte an raibh sé ag tagairt d'oifigigh nó d'oifigí neamhchoimhisiúnta. B'fhéidir go gcuirfeadh sé in iúl dom céard é go díreach a bhí i gceist aige, agus má tá aon rud bun ós cionn geallaim dó go ndéanfar iniúchadh air. Má tá aon rud mí-cheart, féachfaid mé chuige ná leanfar den scéal.

I can thank Deputies who spoke for the manner of their approach to the Estimate. It was apparent that they desired to be helpful with regard to the important matters that come within the ambit of the Department of Defence. I can be thankful for helpful suggestions and for the attitude of Deputies in general. It would be too much to expect that there would not be some exception in that respect. While Deputies paid tribute to the members of the permanent Defence Forces, the First Line Reserve and An Fórsa Cosanta Aitiúil, there was, of course, the notable exception of Deputy O.J. Flanagan who chose, instead, to heap abuse on the members of the permanent Defence Force in regard to the manner in which they perform their duty. That was a notable exception and possibly the best thing to do would be to ignore it because Deputy O.J. Flanagan's disapproval and scorn is hardly likely to have any great effect.

Many people would prefer to have Deputy O.J. Flanagan's disapproval than his approval and certainly I do not feel that the members of the Army will suffer in any way in the estimation of the public because Deputy O.J. Flanagan thinks so very little of them. While I intend largely to ignore his contribution in that respect, I should be failing in my duty if did not refute his imputation of cowardice to the members of the Defence Forces.

That phrase should be withdrawn.

That was the phrase used. His other allegations of discourtesy were equally unfounded. I investigated the conduct of the Defence Forces on the particular occasion and can only repeat what I said when the matter was previously raised in the House, that is, that I am proud of the manner in which every individual member of the Defence Forces conducted himself. The fact that Deputy O.J. Flanagan thinks otherwise will serve only to confirm that opinion.

Apart from that, and, indeed, apart from that particular part of Deputy O. J. Flanagan's speech, all the contributions to the debate were of a helpful and constructive nature. There was, of course, the other aspect of Deputy O. J. Flanagan's contribution, the attack on the language position, but that is nothing new either and, as the general trend of the debate showed support for the policy in that regard, as Deputy O.J. Flanagan rightly remarked, his views on that matter are not likely to affect me in any way.

I can be very thankful to all the other Deputies. I should like to thank my predecessor, in the first place, for his contribution, for his tributes to the Defence Forces and for his support for the civil defence campaign. There is one point of Deputy MacEoin's contribution, with regard to the question of policy.

I asked was there any change in the policy—what was the view.

What the Deputy actually said was:

When the first Inter-Party Government was formed in 1948, the then Minister for Defence and the Government took the view that the proper line to take was to plan for a period of peace of at least 10 years. I should like to remind the Minister that when we took that decision there was a very violent attack made upon that policy. It will be agreed by all and sundry now that our approach to the problem was the correct one and I should like to know from the Minister what his view is today and whether he is continuing that policy.

Of course, there is no doubt, we have had 10 years of peace. If Deputy MacEoin thinks that the fact that there have been 10 years of peace justifies the decision to act on the assumption that there would be 10 years of peace, there may be people who will agree with him, but I am afraid I shall not. If that decision were come to—and I cannot find any trace of it—that there would be peace for 10 years——

My predecessor announced that in the Dáil.

——even though there have been 10 years of peace, I still think it was not a very wise decision. However, I cannot find any trace of a definite decision in that respect.

We shall get you the reference.

I do not think there will be any kind of general agreement, either, with regard to Deputy Booth's contentions as to the strategic importance of the country in the event of a future world conflict. As far as I am concerned, our policy must still be to be ready to the full extent of our resources to defend our country in the event of attack and to do everything possible for the preservation of our freedom. That is in fact the policy.

As I say, there were tributes to the Defence Forces from all sides and I should like to add my voice to them. They were very well earned. The standard among the different components of the Defence Forces is very high indeed. The F.C.A. I was glad to see, got the support of every Deputy who spoke. The question of uniforms was raised and in that respect there has, in fact, been some improvements in the uniforms, in the type of cloth that has been used during the past two years, and there have been certain changes in the design of the tunic. Just as my predecessor would have liked to have made more far-reaching improvements so would I, but I have just the same difficulties as he had. However, the matter is being kept under review. It must be realised by Deputies that there are existing stocks and that issues that have been made must be used before there can be any change in design. It is not a very simple question and personaly I do not think that the strictures about the design of the uniform are entirely deserved. I think it is quite a presentable uniform and that the members of the force look quite well in it.

One Deputy suggested that there should be some form of recognition for long service in the F.C.A., as there is in the permanent Defence Force. I shall undertake to look into that suggestion which I think is a very good one. I think it was Deputy Brennan who raised the question of the co-operation of the employers with members of the F.C.A., and of the civil defence service, going on annual training. There is no great evidence of lack of co-operation in that regard. There may be isolated instances, but generally speaking the co-operation is reasonable. In some cases, when complaints are investigated, it is found that employers are not given proper consideration in the matter of getting due notice. However, I shall be only too pleased to have any specific complaints investigated.

Deputy MacEoin raised the question of the ranks that officers will be able to attain in the F.C.A. The position at present is that the battalion commander can go to the rank of captain and under the new integrating proposal there are early prospects for some officers obtaining the rank of commandant. The question of further promotion of officers will be a matter for consideration as the F.C.A. advances in training and efficiency, as we hope it will under the new scheme. I can assure Deputy MacEoin that I shall be very anxious to do what I can. I hope it will be possible to have promotion even to a higher rank than that of commandant.

A number of Deputies referred to the question of helicopters. It is not the intention to purchase helicopters for military purposes at the moment. They have some uses, of course, but their usefulness for military purposes is very limited and our current policy does not envisage their purchase. With regard to their use for fishery protection work, their usefulness would be very small. Money would be a lot better spent on an extension of the naval service, rather than on the provision of helicopters. It is hard to see what useful function a helicopter could, in fact, perform.

The difficulty with regard to fishery offences is to apprehend the offending vessel and a helicopter cannot operate effectively in that respect. One requires a surface vessel for that work. Certainly the expense of providing helicopters, and providing for their maintenance and their servicing, would be out of all proportion to the value that they would give. The question of helicopters for rescue or relief work is not a matter for my Department. Deputy Blowick asked for even one helipcopter for that purpose. I can only say, from my own knowledge of the matter, that one helicopter would be absolutely useless. A detailed investigation into the matter has revealed that one would be no use at all and that there would have to be at least six helicopters. They would have to be serviced, bases would have to be set up for them and personnel employed to operate them. There again, the usefulness of helicopters in that respect is very greatly exaggerated. There are tragedies, unfortunately, but they usually occur during very inclement weather and helicopters are not very effective under those conditions either. However, as I say, their use for that purpose is not a matter for my Department.

In regard to the question of fishery protection generally, which was referred to by a number of Deputies, the Naval Service is doing its job very well, having regard to its limitations both as to men and equipment. It may be, as Deputy Corish says, that there are not enough boats. In fact, without doubt that is true but that was not the factor in the particular case to which he was referring, during the concentration of foreign trawlers off Dunmore East last year. At that time there were two corvettes there and fishing was going on in rather a limited area. It was possible to patrol the area effectively and I am satisfied that it was patrolled effectively.

It is very understandable that people who earn their livelihood from that industry are perturbed about the destruction of their fishing grounds, and about the large quantities of fish caught by foreign trawlers within a short distance of our coast. The fact is, however, we have no legal right to prevent them taking these fish outside the present limit. My information is that while unfortunately those huge quantities of fish were taken by trawlers of other countries, nothing could be done about it under the law as it stands at present. The Naval Service is doing all it can in that regard. Many of the complaints made about trawlers fishing within the limits are found on investigation not to be correct.

Deputy Booth again referred to the cost of the soldiers' pay section. Last year, I explained the matter to him. He seems to be under a misapprehension in regard to that section. In fact, it does a great deal more than he appears to think. I think I can do no better than refer him to my reply on the last occasion. I know that on this occasion he said he was not interested in any explanations. I cannot give him any further explanation than that which I gave on the last occasion. In fact, there has been some reduction in the provision for that section.

Deputy Vivion de Valera referred to the fact that it had not been possible to maintain an adequate First Line Reserve. That is regrettable, but it is due purely and simply to the fact that the turn-over of men from the Army has not been sufficient. The estimates made as to the strength of the First Line Reserve was likely to reach have not been realised.

A number of Deputies referred to the desirability of promoting certain officers of the First Line Reserve who are still at the rank of lieutenant. I do not think it helps their case to exaggerate their claims in any way. I am quite sympathetic to it. I realise that as an officer advances in years, he would like to have the third bar, but there are other considerations. It does not help their claim to try to put it forward that there is an entitlement to it, when in fact there is not. Comparing them, for instance, with officers of the same age in the permanent Defence Force, does not make sense. However, I agree that these officers gave very good service, both while in the permanent Defence Force and on the Reserve. I am quite favourably disposed towards giving them some recognition for that service. I also see the advantage of retaining their services in the First Line Reserve for a longer period. There are a number of difficulties to be overcome, but, if it is possible, some scheme may be formulated to give promotion to some of them, at any rate.

A number of Deputies referred to the desirability of publicising the army in every way possible, particularly in towns in which there is no Army garrison. During the recent recruiting campaign, that was done as far as possible. A number of areas were visited and, generally speaking, those methods were successful. The last recruiting campaign was the most successful for a number of years. I agree with Deputies that it is a good idea to let the people see more of the Army, through the Army Bands, parades and so on.

A number of different aspects were referred to in regard to the School of Equitation. I described the state of affairs there in my opening remarks. There is an increased provision this year for the purchase of horses. A large part of the disimprovement in the performance of the school was due to the fact that over a number of years sufficient attention was not paid to providing the team with suitable horses. Now an effort will be made to correct that, and I hope it will be successful.

The debate generally in regard to civil defence was very helpful. Every Deputy who spoke on the subject approached it in the proper manner. I was delighted to see that there was among Deputies such a keen appreciation of the importance of civil defence. It is true that the recent recruiting campaign for the civil defence service was not as successful as we would have wished. That was in spite of the best efforts of the Director and my Department to convince the public of the vital necessity of having an adequate civil defence organisation available within the shortest possible time. We find it particularly difficult to drive the importance of that home to the local public representatives. Recently, as Deputy O.J. Flanagan mentioned, a tour was made of the different localities with a view to enlisting their support in securing an influx of volunteers into this organisation. That is one of the best ways of getting in touch with the people it is desired to recruit. Members of local bodies have contact with the people in their areas and should be able to influence them, if, first of all, we can convince them of the importance of this matter.

The debate generally on civil defence should be very helpful to us. My Department will continue to make every possible endeavour to get the required volunteers and give them the best possible training. It is a very necessary and urgent thing. As a number of Deputies pointed out, it is something we cannot wait to do until the danger is actually here. Preparations must be made in advance and the Government are determined to try to provide the country with an adequate civil defence organisation within the shortest possible time.

Before the Minister concludes, would he deal with the suggestion of the revival of the Regiment of Pearse or O.T.C.?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 20th May, 1959.
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