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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 Jun 1959

Vol. 175 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Agriculture.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £7,652,960 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

In accordance with the usual practice in relation to this Estimate, I have circulated to Deputies a memorandum which gives a great deal of factual information on the current activities of my Department. In addition, every Deputy has been furnished with a recent publication of my Department, entitled "Specially for the Farmer", in which all of the many schemes which can be availed of by farmers are explained.

The Printed Estimates show the net estimate for 1959/60, at £11,344,960, as an increase of £1,831,650 over the 1958/59 figure. After the Estimates were printed, however, a supplementary net provision of £2,220,000 for 1958/59 was granted by the Dáil and this had the effect of increasing the net estimate for 1958/59 from £9,513,310 to £11,733,310, or £388,350 more than the net estimate for 1959/60.

Last year, farmers were extremely unfortunate in that what looked like the beginning of a prosperous season ended with a disastrous harvest. There is no doubt at all that farmers' incomes suffered badly as a result. A very preliminary estimate published prior to the Budget placed the drop in output at £8 million. More recent information suggests a drop of about £13 million. Cattle, dairy and cereal production were all adversely affected. This was a very serious loss not only for the farmers themselves but for the whole community. Nevertheless, the industry is in a fundamentally sound position, and I am confident that this year, given favourable weather, the steady progress which has resulted in a 50 per cent. increase in farm income over the past ten years will be resumed.

The trend of agricultural exports has been reasonably satisfactory. Exports of agricultural commodities have increased from £74 million in 1955 to £86 million in 1958. As usual, the bulk of our exports are going to the British market. As Deputies are aware, the international marketing situation for agricultural products, especially dairy products, eggs, and pigmeat, has not been good and the future is giving rise to a good deal of concern.

It must be remembered that Continental countries produce by and large the same products as we do ourselves. In most cases, the whole range of their agricultural prices is supported at a comparatively high level and, consequently, their output, which is almost entirely for home consumption and independent of the vagaries of export markets, is very high. Their import requirements are, therefore, marginal and their internal price structure is protected by quotas and other import barriers. Nevertheless, these markets are quite important. They have, for example, provided useful openings for certain types of cattle and sheep. Deputies will also realise that when markets tend to be weak even a small extra opening frequently has a very marked effect in improving the tone of prices here. We have, therefore, been following keenly the developments in the Common Market in relation to agriculture. Taking account of the inherent conditions in agriculture in the Common Market countries and the policies indicated in the Rome Treaty, it is to be feared that there is little prospect of any substantial increase in our exports to the continent.

I should like to mention some important new developments during the past year or so. First of all, as the House is aware, An Foras Talúntais came into existence last autumn and commenced its work in relation to agricultural research. The Estimate includes a provision of £50,000 for the purposes of the Institute. Apart from this, the Institute has available to it a sum of £1,840,000 from Marshall Aid Counterpart Funds, £840,000 of which is to be used for capital purposes and £1 million of which is a permanent endowment. The interest on these funds is available to the Institute as income and can be used for current expenditure. In addition, the Institute will receive from State funds sums equivalent to the estimated cost of operating any existing services which are transferred from my Department to the Institute.

A number of institutions of a research character previously administered by my Department have already been transferred to the Institute. These comprise Grange Farm, Glenamoy Peatland Experiment Station, and land and facilities made available to the Department by Bord na Móna at Derrybrennan and Clonsast for peatland experimental work. It is also proposed to transfer Johnstown Castle Agricultural College to the Institute, but an amendment to the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Act, 1945, is required to enable this to be done. I am happy to be able to say that the donors have kindly given their approval to the transfer and I accordingly propose to have the necessary Bill introduced very shortly.

As has recently been announced, there have been important developments in regard to the future of veterinary education. As from January next, the teaching of veterinary medicine will be handed over to the universities, and all the professors and other teaching staff will be appointed by the universities instead of, as in the past, by the Minister for Agriculture. The existing teaching staff at the Veterinary College will be transferred to University College, Dublin, or to Trinity College, Dublin. The Faculties of Veterinary Medicine in University College, Dublin, and Trinity College, Dublin will use the Veterinary College for the training of their respective student bodies, and the Veterinary College will be administered by my Department in so far as such matters as buildings, equipment, appointment of non-teaching staff, etc., are concerned. These arrangements have been made in agreement with the two universities. The degrees of the two universities have been recognised, with effect from the 1st June, 1959, as registrable qualifications in Britain, and students here will, therefore, no longer take an M.R.C.V.S. Diploma Examination, but a university degree in veterinary medicine. These developments are very satisfactory.

I should also like to mention at this stage that I have received reports on the following subjects from the Advisory Committee on the Marketing of Agricultural Products: bacon and other pigmeat, shell eggs and liquid egg, turkeys and dairy produce. The Report on pigs and bacon has already been published, and the others will follow shortly. I should like to thank the Chairman, Dr. Greene, and the members of the Committee for all the time and energy they have expended in the preparation of these reports. The Committee will, I expect, have completed the remainder of their heavy task during the present calendar year.

Coming now to more general matters, the Government's agricultural policy is set out in the White Paper on Economic Expansion which was published last autumn. That policy is being carried out and the measures foreshadowed in it are being put into effect. The White Paper drew special attention to our low usage of fertilisers, especially on grassland. It laid particular emphasis on the unsatisfactory status of our soils. Grassland makes up 85 per cent. of our total agricultural area, and it is a matter of serious concern to our whole economy that such a large proportion of our total area goes without proper treatment. Experimental work has made it clear that through attention to these lands our output of livestock and livestock products could be greatly increased. The Government decided, therefore, as announced in the White Paper, to introduce a scheme for the subsidisation of phosphatic fertilisers, and this House passed a Supplementary Estimate to enable this scheme to be launched in the 1958/59 financial year. The Estimate now before the House contains provision for £1¾ million to enable the subsidy to be continued during the current financial year. There are already indications that the subsidy scheme and the increased activities of the advisory services have been effective in appreciably increasing the use of superphosphate and basic slag on grassland. I am looking forward to a very substantial increase in the years ahead. I feel that the money expended on subsidising phosphates should be regarded as an investment which will return big dividends to the nation.

Turning to livestock and livestock products, cattle production continues at a satisfactory level, the number of animals under one year old reaching a new record figure of 1,108,000 in 1958, which is an increase of over 45,000 on 1957 and over 100,000 as compared with 1956. The number of milch cows and in-calf heifers was also higher in 1958 than in any year since pre-war. Exports of fat and store cattle in 1958 and the early months of 1959 have been lower than the very heavy exports in 1957, although offset to some extent by higher prices, but it is obvious that the position of the industry is fundamentally sound. The greater interest being shown in grassland improvement, stimulated further by the phosphates subsidy, will, of course, increase carrying capacity. The total export trade in beef has been well maintained during the past year, a decline in exports to the Continent being offset by increased exports to the U.S.A. and Britain.

On the breeding side, the artificial insemination service is now catering for nearly 40 per cent. of the total breeding stock, and it is important that progeny testing of the bulls used should receive due attention. Arrangements are in operation with the A.I. stations for the running of milk recording units by each station in respect of their dairy bulls, and other progeny testing methods are also being arranged. One of the benefits of artificial insemination can be seen from the results of providing the service in parts of the West and North-West, where infertility had been a very serious problem and the use of communal bulls a risk. In these areas, such as Innishboffin and parts of County Mayo, the calving percentage has been successfully restored in a short time.

As regards the pigs and bacon industry, although the livestock census for January, 1959, showed a decrease in total pig numbers as compared with January, 1958, the information available to my Department indicates that that trend had ceased and that pig production is again expanding.

For some months past, the bacon market in Britain has not been very buoyant and exports of Grade A bacon from here have required fairly substantial price support. Movements on the British bacon market are extremely difficult to predict and I think it would be unwise for me to hazard any forecast as to the course of that market during the remainder of the year.

As I have already mentioned, the report on the export of bacon and other pigmeat by the Advisory Committee on the Marketing of Agricultural Produce has recently been published, and steps are being taken to consult the interests concerned on the views and recommendations in the report. In the meantime, I have not finally decided on the extent to which the recommendations in the Report can be implemented.

Progeny testing of pigs is going ahead satisfactorily at the Cork Progeny Testing Station, which commenced operations in January, 1958. Two tests with numbers of pigs to the full capacity of the station, that is, 192 pigs per test, have already been completed and a third test is in progress. A detailed report on the first test has been completed and it will, I hope, be published within the next week or so. A report on the second test is in course of preparation and will be published soon also.

Arrangements are in train for the erection of a second pig-progeny testing station on the Department's property at Thorndale which has been vacated by the veterinary research laboratory, now at Abbotstown. The accommodation to be provided at the second station will generally be on the same lines as the Cork station.

Our egg export trade remains at a comparatively low level. This is largely the result of the British price guarantee system. I have been studying the Report received from the Agricultural Marketing Advisory Committee on the export of shell eggs and liquid eggs. This Report will be published within the next week or so, and the views and recommendations therein will then be discussed with the different interests concerned, with a view to having such improvements as may be possible made in the marketing system. I am also studying a report from the Advisory Committee on the export of turkeys, which I hope will also be published shortly. The turkey export market last Christmas was not quite as satisfactory as the previous year, despite the effects on production of the bad weather in 1958, and it is clear that, if we are to hold a satisfactory place in the British turkey trade, our production and marketing methods must complete with the more intensive and highly organised practices now developing in Britain.

Another recent development in the poultry world, which has spread from America to Europe, is the trade in broilers, that is table chickens of selected meat types reared intensively to about ten weeks old. For the successful conduct of this trade, output must be organised on a large-scale basis with a low unit return. A couple of co-operative societies and others have already made a beginning in the business here and in view of its rapid expansion in Britain, the potentialities of developing exports to that market by co-operative societies and the Dairy Disposal Company, Limited, are being actively pursued. It would appeal to me if the ordinary poultry keeper could also be fitted into the scheme of things. I may mention that a useful trade is already being done in the export of day-old chicks to the Six Counties, Britain and Italy.

I should now like to deal with the dairying industry and the Government's policy on its problems. One aspect of this which has recently been the subject of comment is the butter levy which was introduced last year and is still in operation. The position in this regard has already been explained to the interests concerned in the course of discussions and correspondence and by way of a Press announcement and in reply to questions in this House. It seems that the facts should be clearly stated again.

At the beginning of 1958, it appeared that the subsidy required for the export of surplus butter in 1958/59 would be in excess of £3 million, and, as this was felt to be too heavy a burden for the tax-payer, it was decided that it was not unreasonable to require the dairy industry to meet part of the loss on marketing the surplus. It was decided that the industry's part would be one-third, the other two-thirds being met by the Exchequer. This means that for every £1 paid out of the proceeds of the levy the Exchequer contributes £2. Although the surplus of butter last year was less than in 1957, the levy of 17s. a cwt. was barely adequate to meet one-third of the losses on exports.

As regards the maintenance of the levy, it is impossible to estimate accurately at this stage either the quantity of butter likely to be available for export or the price which will be obtained. It has been claimed that there will be no export surplus this year. This is solely speculation based on the reduced milk intake at creameries during the past few months as compared with the same period last year. It must be remembered that, while the supply of milk to creameries up to August 1958 was greater than in the same period of 1957, the exceptionally bad weather conditions caused a sharp fall in the later months of the year, with the result that the milk intake for the whole of 1958 was less than in 1957. There is no reason to think that the reverse may not happen this year. Indeed we sincerely hope it will. Finally, as already pointed out many times, should it transpire that the full amount of the levy, which is paid into a special fund, will not be required to meet one-third of the export losses this year, any balance will be used only for the benefit of the dairying industry.

The weather conditions last summer and autumn had a very serious effect on the quantity and quality of the grain produced from the 1958 harvest.

In July last year, the indications were that the quantity of home-grown wheat likely to be available would be considerably in excess of the 300,000 tons which it was intended should be taken up by the flour millers. Accordingly, a levy of 5s. 9d. a barrel on all wheat marketed was fixed after consultation with the interests concerned. Conditions worsened considerably during August and September with the result that the quality of the wheat turned out to be much worse than could have been anticipated and approximately 90 per cent. of the crop was suitable only for animal feed. In these circumstances, special arrangements were made to ensure that the wheat would be taken off the growers' hands at the prices set out in the Wheat Order, and An Bord Gráin was given the responsibility of marketing approximately 230,000 tons of wheat for animal feed, the losses on which were underwritten by the State. I am glad to say that the bulk of this wheat has now been disposed of by the Board and it is expected that the remaining quantity available will be sold before this year's harvest becomes available.

As regards oats and barley, the position was not quite as bad as in the case of wheat, but, nevertheless, it was found necessary in the course of the year to permit imports of limited quantities of these grains to supplement home supplies.

As regards the present year, while detailed statistics are not yet available, there are indications that the area under wheat will be about 30 per cent. less than in 1958; that the area under barley for feeding purposes will be about 25 per cent. higher, and that there may also be some increase in the area under oats. The position in regard to the marketing of feeding barley of the 1959 crop is at present being examined and I hope to be able to make an announcement at an early date.

If my forecast of the wheat area is any way near the mark, it seems very unlikely that any levy will be necessary this year. In regard to future years, as I have already stated, I look with favour on the efforts being made to devise a workable alternative, such as growing by contract. I fully realise of course the many difficulties that have to be surmounted in working out any such system.

The provision for the Land Project remains at well over £2 million, although, as Deputies are aware, the scheme has been altered by the discontinuance of Section B. It will be noticed that grants to farmers are estimated at £1,350,000 or £100,000 more than in 1958-59. The reasons for the discontinuance of Section B have been fairly fully ventilated and I do not think it necessary to repeat them. I may say, however, that farmers have for some years been showing an increasing preference for Section A and it has always been my personal view that farmers who seek assistance from the State to reclaim their land should either do the work themselves or be responsible for any contracts placed for executing the work.

I am glad to announce that arrangements will shortly be made whereby farmers, if they so choose, may assign their Land Project grants to their contractors subject to certain conditions. This should be of considerable assistance to contractors generally.

Provision is also made in the Estimate for the continuance of the Fertiliser Scheme operated in conjunction with the Land Project. Under this scheme, farmers whose lands are subject to a Land Purchase Annuity may obtain a soil analysis report on payment of a soil testing fee of 1/- per acre and may obtain credit for the purchase of fertilisers—lime, phosphates and potash—repayable as an addition to their Land Purchase Annuities. Formerly, participants in this scheme were required to carry out the fertilisation of all the agricultural land on their holdings in one operation. This requirement was felt to be too exacting, and, in February last, the scheme was modified so as to allow a farmer to avail himself of it provided that he fertilised at least one-third of his holding and the amount to be repaid by way of annuity was not less than £100.

I now come to what is, undoubtedly, the most important and urgent task with which the country is confronted —that is, the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. I am glad to be able to report that a great deal of progress has been achieved in the past year and confidently look forward to an even greater intensification of effort on the part of everyone concerned in the future. Whereas, at the start of last year the intensive measures were confined to four or five counties outside the western Clearance Area, the position has now been reached where intensive eradication is in progress in every one of the Twenty-six Counties. There are, regrettably, areas in a few counties where there is still a lack of appreciation of the urgent need to push vigorously ahead with the work. The programme which was announced by my Department at the beginning of this year, following consultation and agreement with farming and other organisations concerned, calls for the maximum effort by everyone, and it would be nothing less than a national tragedy if, because of indifference or complacency on the part of any herd-owners, that programme was not completed as we envisaged.

We must not lose sight of the fact that Britain is now very close to full attestation and the position will almost certainly be reached by the end of this year when there will be no market for untested store cattle. Even already, the outlets for untested cattle are diminishing very rapidly. Farmers who have not yet taken any steps to clear their herds would do well to consider the significance of this.

So far, the weight of our effort has been directed to the clearance of the seven western counties with a view to having them accredited as early as possible. The programme to which I have referred aims at the conditions necessary for accreditation being attained in Sligo towards the end of this year, with other counties reaching the same status progressively from the start of 1960. I can say that, up to the present, we have kept abreast of our programme in the Western area, thanks in large measure to the splendid degree of co-operation which has been forthcoming from herd-owners and veterinary practitioners. This encourages me in the expectation that our target will be reached on time. I might here mention that, as the next step in bringing the West to full accreditation, it is my intention in the very near future to make an Order requiring that, from the early autumn, only tested cattle may be exposed at public sales there. Later, I intend to follow this up by requiring that only cattle which bear the special green tag denoting that they have passed at the second round of clearance tests, or have a 14-day test tag, can be similarly exposed.

Our programme also envisages the declaration of Cavan, Monaghan and Longford as Clearance Areas. I am happy to announce that progress in Cavan and Monaghan has been sufficiently good to warrant our taking this step almost immediately. I, therefore, intend to make them a Clearance Area as from mid-July. Longford shows promise and will, I hope, be ready for the clearance measures in a matter of months.

As regards the other counties, notable progress has been made in Kildare, Meath and Westmeath. This is a very welcome sign in view of the key role of these midland counties in our store cattle trade with Britain, and I am sure that the counties I have mentioned will continue the good work and reach the stage—perhaps towards the end of this year—when they, too, can become Clearance Areas.

I should like to refer briefly to the announcement some time ago by the British Government that they would continue to accept our once-tested store cattle for a period of five years from the date on which the whole of Britain becomes attested. I would like to place on record my appreciation of the helpful attitude of the British authorities in this matter. There has been a tendency in certain quarters to suggest that this concession is likely to induce complacency in our farmers and so retard the progress of eradication. I personally do not hold this view but if there should be any persons who are of that way of thinking, I must warn them that the concession in question is only a temporary arrangement and it is vital to press ahead energetically and urgently with the elimination of tuberculosis. It is particularly important that we expand rapidly the number of accredited cattle we can send to Britain. Already, the British buyer is showing an increasing reluctance to taking the once-tested cattle, which necessitates the bothersome job of isolation and retesting. It is clear that he wants accredited cattle and we must not rest in our effort until we can supply what is needed.

Deputies will be interested to hear that I have recently received some interim results of trials of the preparation known as Trolene in the control of warble fly. This was administered as a drench. Over 160 cattle were treated and a similar number was left untreated. Only 112 warbles were found in the treated cattle as compared with 1,721 in the untreated group. The trials will soon be completed and I think there are reasonable grounds for hope that we are in sight of a solution of this very troublesome business.

The outbreaks of swine fever which commenced in Dublin in August, 1956, have ended. The last outbreaks of the disease were confirmed on the 29th May, 1958. In all, 201 outbreaks were confirmed in fourteen counties, involving the slaughter of 11,335 pigs for which £129,954 was paid in compensation. The total expenditure incurred in dealing with the outbreaks came to over £143,000. Apart from this heavy cost, there is no doubt that the disease contributed to a reduction in the number of pigs.

Restrictions on the movement of pigs in the Dublin area were enforced from 11th August, 1956, to 21st March, 1959. At one period from 21st June, 1957, to 12th December, 1957, when the disease position was particularly grave, restrictions in some form were imposed on the movement of pigs over the whole country.

I would like to pay tribute to all those who gave such tremendous help and co-operation in stamping out this disease.

Before I finish with veterinary matters, I feel I must refer to the Veterinary Medical Association's boycott on the recruitment of veterinary officers by my Department. I regret very much that the Veterinary Medical Association have persisted in this course, especially having regard to the efforts of my late predecessor and myself to effect an understanding with them. These efforts finally resulted in agreement to submit the matter in dispute to Conciliation and Arbitration. That agreement provided that vacant posts in the Department could be advertised freely after an offer at Conciliation level. It is an appalling state of affairs that an organisation of professional men should openly and flagrantly, with such possible damaging consequences to the country, repudiate their plighted word and again impose their boycott on recruitment after the Government immediately accepted the arbitration award in full and even after those concerned with the award had got the entire benefit of it. I have refrained all these months from making any public references myself to this important matter. Indeed I have done so when under pressure from other quarters to make the whole position known. If we are not to have machinery such as that provided in this case for settling salary claims, what other more suitable machinery can be designed. When the Government goes so far as to agree to such machinery, it should not be difficult for any reasonable person to see that they cannot go any further. The worst feature of all, in my view, is that when after protracted discussions agreement to settle the matter finally by arbitration was deliberately entered into, there should be a breach of such an understanding on the part of the Veterinary Medical Association. This entirely bewilders me.

In making this statement at the eleventh hour, as I have mentioned, and before anything further is said on this whole regrettable matter I appeal again to the members of the Veterinary Medical Association and especially to the many members of it who are so busy with their own private practice and who may not be fully conscious of all that is said and done in their name, to take a keener interest in this important subject; and I do not think it unreasonable to hope that they will take steps to insist that when a serious agreement is made in their name they on their part will ensure that those elected to control the destinies of their organisation will honourably fulfil their obligations.

I need hardly emphasise the basic importance of our educational and advisory services in diffusing knowledge to farmers throughout the country. These services are fundamental to our agricultural progress. The numbers of agricultural instructors have been increased during the past year and we now have five agricultural advisers for every one adviser employed before the war. I shall welcome proposals from Committees of Agriculture for the further strengthening of their advisory services. I am very glad to see that many Committees of Agriculture have increased the numbers of scholarships to agricultural schools and colleges and to the rural domestic economy schools this year, and I trust that this will have the effect of encouraging more boys and girls to avail themselves of the very valuable training which is given at these institutions.

Amongst the new developments initiated during the past year is the Farm Management Survey. This Survey is designed to provide advisers with information which will be useful to them in helping farmers to plan and run their businesses more profitably. The Committees of Agriculture, the Central Statistics Office and An Foras Talúntais are co-operating with the Department in the operation of this Survey which will, I am confident, make the work of our advisory services more fruitful.

Very considerable improvements in the long and short term credit facilities available to farmers have been introduced in the past year. These should put capital within the reach of all deserving applicants. There are indications that farmers are already availing of these new facilities to an increasing extent, and I am told that bank advances to farmers between January, 1958, and January, 1959, have increased by about £5 million.

Wise use of credit, coupled with technical advice now so readily available, is about the best means by which farmers can increase their incomes and provide a reasonable standard of living for their families. I hope that, in particular, small farmers of good character but limited resources will be accommodated as they would then be in a position to carry more stock and to increase their production generally. I suppose, Sir, I dare not express the hope that this Estimate will be treated as generously as that of my colleague who went before me.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

The Minister for Agriculture and the House is well aware that at the present time many members of the House are in the country dealing with the constitutional issue and that it was on that account, and on account of a trick by the Minister for Local Government that the debate on the Estimate for Local Government finished so quickly last night and that this Estimate comes on somewhat unexpectedly this morning. I therefore want to make it clear that Deputy Dillon is in the country and will be here at a later stage in this debate to give the Minister and the House the benefit of his views. It is only pending his return from the country that I move the reference back. I suppose it would have been too much to expect the Minister to sit down without some provocative remark. I was about to think that the greatest miracle since Moses struck the rock had happened, but the Minister spoiled it when he went away from his script.

It was jocose.

Be that as it may, the supply by the Minister of the typescript copy of his speech does facilitate very much the consideration of the Estimate, as does the practice which was initiated some ten years ago of supplying a memorandum which is euphemistically described as "Some Notes On Activities". It might almost be described as a booklet. I would make the suggestion to the Minister in respect of it in an entirely non-political way.

It is pretty difficult for those who want to address themselves to the Estimate for the Department for Agriculture immediately after the Minister has concluded his speech, be they persons who want to speak at once or who will speak later in the day, to have in that period the opportunity of studying the notes as fully as they would wish in order to speak on the matters with the maximum amount of knowledge. I know that there were difficulties in that the Estimate came on sooner than it was expected. I wonder if it would be possible in future years to do, in respect of these notes, what is done, for example, in respect of the Estimate of Receipts and Expenses which is published on the Saturday before Budget day? I wonder if it would be possible to publish the notes in future a couple of days or so before the Estimate itself is taken? It would assist informed criticism on the Estimate.

Equally, we have received this morning particulars of the grants approved under the Land Project. We are all glad to get that up-to-date information but it is perhaps a little difficult to correlate it, having received it only this morning, in view of the fact that the Estimate is being discussed to-day. It may be that that just arose because the Estimate came on earlier.

It has no connection with it at all, in fact.

That was just the regular period? That is quite understandable. I want to join with the Minister in expressing through this House to the farmers, when we are to-day considering our review of 1958, our sympathy and consideration for the appalling difficulties they had to face last year in the harvest weather. There is no doubt whatever that last years' harvest has had very unpleasant results not merely on the nation as a whole but on individual farmers. We can only hope that they will get from the elements better opportunities and a better chance this year of reaping the reward of their years' work. Indeed, some of them are already in some difficulties this year, not in regard to harvest weather, of course, but in respect of the fact that I think grass has rarely been so backward. There has been less growth in the current Spring season than many people can remember. The harshness that has been in the air, coupled with the lack of moisture in the short fine spell we got, unfortunately seems to mean that our grass crop this year has not come up to the expectations we would assume in this, the first week of June. No matter whether it is in this House, in the city or elsewhere, the sympathy of all of us must go to people who, through no fault of their own, see the result of a hard years' work suddenly taken away.

In his speech, the Minister devoted little time, for a Fianna Fáil Minister, to the subject of wheat. We always used to be taunted by Fianna Fáil Deputies that only under Fianna Fáil was it possible to have any satisfactory wheat crop in the country, that only under that Party was there any real consideration given to our tillage production. The results there have been and the attitude of the Government in the last two years have probably more effectively than anything anybody could say from this side of the House killed that attitude and exposed the falseness and the deception of their propaganda over the years.

The crop in 1957, which was undoubtedly arranged if not sown prior to the change of Government, reppresented, I think, a record acreage for many years. The manner in which the present Government deliberately led the farmers to believe that they would get an entirely different approach to wheat prices from that which they did receive after the election does not need to be discussed here now. The farmers themselves are able to assess the value of the promises made by the canvassers of Fianna Fáil and by the public speakers, including particularly Deputy Dr. Ryan, as he then was, on the radio in reference to wheat prices.

In his review, the Minister seemed to skim over the sales of wheat in the early part of last year before the harvest came in. It seemed clear to me at the time, and certainly it appears clear since, that he was somewhat precipitate in continuing with the sale of wheat for animal feeding when the weather was steadily getting worse and when it was obvious that, apart from the weather itself, the crop of the 1958 season was not likely to be satisfactory from a millable point of view.

There is no doubt whatever that a great deal of wheat that was cut was sold as animal feeding at that time. More foresight then by the Minister would have saved not merely the Exchequer but the country considerable sums of money. Everywhere one went last year, one heard complaints about the rejection of wheat, about the manner in which farmers had to take wheat from one mill to another and that there was no uniformity whatever in the manner in which wheat was treated. I think that was largely because sufficient grip was not kept from week to week by the Minister for Agriculture on the situation as it was developing.

It is natural that there will be a certain amount of complaint whenever there are restrictions. Nobody ever is satisfied with a rejection that he may receive. The number of complaints last year, even allowing for the bad weather, and the number of authenticated stories one received of the manner in which different farmers received different treatment in different places for, perhaps, often the same sample of wheat, leave one with the feeling that there is great room for improvement in the method of controlling intake and ensuring fair intake at the mill.

I am not quite clear whether it is the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Industry and Commerce who deals with the distribution by the millers of native wheat. In any event, whether it is the Minister himself or not, it is as well that he should be apprised of what I understand in certain respects is happening. Some millers who took in as much Irish wheat as they were able to take are now being penalised in having to use that Irish wheat in their flour grist while their competitors who were not so generous in accepting Irish wheat are able to use a larger percentage of foreign wheat and therefore perhaps get a harder and a whiter flour.

You would scarcely see ten per cent in a grist.

I am not an expert on this——

Neither am I.

——but I am speaking from what experts have said to me. It does seem to me entirely wrong that if a mill has taken in more Irish wheat than another mill, the one which has taken in the larger percentage of Irish wheat should be in the position of having to put out a different type of flour. It is not in the national interest that a mill which has taken in Irish wheat should be in the position of not being able to mill flour that is of the same mixture as that of its competitors who did not take that wheat when it was offered.

As far as I know, no miller ever complained to us on that head.

I would ask the Minister to look again at his records to see if there was such a complaint made to him. It would be most unfair—and I gather from the Minister's interjection that he would agree that it would be most unfair—that such a situation should arise.

The Minister referred to the publication of the report of the advisory committee on marketing of bacon and other pig meat. I am afraid the publication of that report did not receive as much publicity as was desirable. It is desirable that everybody concerned with the problem should see that report and have an opportunity of studying it and considering it. I do not know whether the distribution of that report was made by the Minister or not. It is normal, certainly in relation to any documents of major importance—and it is a document of major importance—that arrangements are made for adequate publicity. One of the arrangements for adequate publicity is circulation at least to those Deputies who are likely to be interested, if not to all Deputies. As far as I can ascertain, no circulation of that report was made to anyone in this House, except that it was filed in the Library. That is a mistake and it does not treat the subject with the attention it deserves.

The reduction in the number of pigs during 1958 and in the early part of this year is of course, a reduction that flows from the ill-advised action by the Minister last year in reducing the price by 5/- for Grade A as from 1st July, 1958. The announcement of that reduction came at the worst possible time psychologically. At that time, there was a heavy drop in bacon and pig prices in Britain and the Minister's reduction on top of that had an adverse psychological effect. It meant that a considerable number of farmers, instead of sending their sow to the pig, sent the sow to be knocked and the young sows that would otherwise, in the period running from then the to now, have been producing their litters of bonhams were sent into the factories. It was a great error by the Minister, bearing in mind, as one must bear in mind, that all down the years the trouble in relation to pigs has been the fluctuating production.

The Grade A scheme which was introduced by the Government of which I had the honour to be a member was introduced for two reasons: first of all, for the purpose of trying to get an improvement in the quality of our pigs; and secondly, for the purpose of trying to even out production and ensuring that there would not be in the future a glut of pigs in one year with a consequent disastrous reduction in price, that glut and that reduction in price being automatically followed by the farmers getting out of pigs, there then being a scarcity of pigs in the following couple of years and a high price, with not enough farmers being able to take advantage of that for their own benefit, quite apart from the ensuing national loss.

It is heartening, considering that scheme, to notice on page 6 of the memorandum that in the year 1958, there was a further increase in the percentage of Grade A. In August-December, 1955, it was only 54 per cent., but rose to 62 per cent. in 1956, to 67 per cent. in 1957 and to 70 per cent. in 1958. That increase in the quality of the article being produced here is a heartening trend and I hope the proportion of pig production that qualifies as Grade A will continue to increase in that way. If so, the introduction of that scheme will have meant further benefit, and even the increase in quality which is already in evidence has shown that it was well worth while.

I notice that immediately after the paragraph dealing with pigs and bacon, the Minister adds a paragraph dealing with horse flesh, and notes that the Government decided to permit the export of horse flesh for human consumption, even though not one licence has been given for premises for that purpose. No exports have yet taken place. Certainly, that record recorded there on page 7 of the notes makes it clear that the hullabaloo that was raised about this matter while Deputy Dillon was in office as Minister for Agriculture, with the complete silence there is now about the matter, must have been an inspired campaign——

Perhaps not altogether.

——for some purposes in respect of which certain well-intentioned people were made use of without their knowledge. Certain well-intentioned people—I do not challenge their intentions at all—were deliberately used for certain purposes without their appreciating that was so. It is quite clear that was the position. It is quite clear also that while part of the instigation was not political, there was a much more unpleasant motive in the case of one or two persons concerned. Part of it was done quite deliberately politically by some of the Deputies opposite.

That is a complete untruth. I deny it here.

If Deputy Burke wants me to name the Deputy, who is in this House and who, I think, was responsible for part of it, I shall do so.

The Deputy knows well enough that these people approached Deputies from all sides of the House.

The Deputy knows that Deputy Bruke tried delibreately to fan that flame for political purposes.

I had nothing to do with it.

I gave the Deputy every chance of not being named.

He is telling lies.

Has the Chair heard——

I withdraw—he is telling untruths.

Does the Deputy remember the time he accused us of running the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association? They are at me now just the same as they were at the other man.

They are at you very gently, so.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Hilliard, as decent a man as is on the Government benches, was marching along with the men in West Cork at the by-election.

We were supposed to have charge of the organisation at that time.

He had good charge that day.

The Minister knows very well that he and his Party fished in muddy waters at that time, but in view of the matter which is to be discussed by him at 3 o'clock, I do not want to say anything more.

I would rather be guided by my own conscience than by the Deputy's accusations.

I do not ask the Minister to be guided by my conscience. I do not try to thrust things down his throat. The Minister will forgive my saying: God forbid that I should be judged by the Minister's conscience.

I hope we are taking you out of a difficulty because I understand the Deputy is embarrased at being called upon.

Not the slightest.

If we are helping the Deputy over fences, it is no harm.

Not a bit. The difference between the Minister and myself is that I am not the least bit perturbed or annoyed by any reference he might make. I feel, just as I do in the case of Deputy Burke. that what I was saying, which is the truth, got a little bit under the skin.

I was enjoying him.

We were both enjoying him.

The Minister brought up the I.C.M.S.A.

Leave the poor man alone. It is a good thing to see him in good humour. It happens so rarely. I do not think the Minister would get five members of his own Party to sign an honest certificate to that effect, certainly not from what I heard——

Even if that is true, do not tell the world outside. I am terribly anxious to build up a better reputations than that.

The Minister wants to have a contest on this.

It is said that the Deputy is not too popular himself in his own Party.

These personalities must cease. Deputy Sweetman must be allowed to make his speech.

I have no doubt whatever that I am extremely unpopular with people who do not like being told the truth and who do not like being told they have made a mess of things, like Deputy Smith as Minister for Agriculture.

The Fine Gael Party——

There is one thing about the Fine Gael Party. They will not behave towards people who have been a long time in the Fine Gael Party as the Fianna Fáil Party behaved to Deputy Killilea on occasions.

I would ask the Deputy Sweetman to get back to the Estimate.

I should be willing to get back to the Estimate, if they will allow me. I am always perfectly happy to carry on debate here in the most courteous way, but if people want to be rough with me, I can be just as rough, if not rougher.

The Deputy is not too bad at all. I have often heard him far worse.

If Deputy Burke had an opportunity of seeing one farm at close quarters, perhaps he might be able to give us some experience of it there. I do not think it would be right——

There are a few of your friends there.

I do not think it would be right for anybody speaking from these Benches to miss the opportunity of again placing on record from all sides of the House, as the Minister placed on record, our appreciation of the enablement given us under the Grant Counterpart Fund in relation to the Agricultural Institute. We were all glad to see the Institute initiated, set in motion and installed in its new premises a short couple of weeks ago. On the work of that Institute in relation to agricultural research will depend not merely the rate of progress of the farmers concerned but the rate of our economic progress as a nation. It does not matter what type of activity one is considering at the present time —what sort of business activity— research is now, in modern times, one of the most vital things towards progress. We all hope that the institution of the Agricultural Institute will give that improvement in the quality of research, in the extent of research, and in the results, to ensure that our agricultural community will be able to keep abreast of the times.

I have said on previous occasions, and I repeat now, that not merely the farmers themselves but the nation as a whole owe a very considerable debt of gratitude to the farmers' organisations, the Young Farmers' Clubs as they were first, Macra na Feirme as they became later on, for the awareness of the need for further research and education in agriculture they engendered in the community as a whole, not merely in their own members. In fact, I think it is true to say that if it had not been for that spirit that was engendered by the pioneers who founded the Young Farmers' Clubs here, and went on to develop Macra na Feirme and subsequently the N.F.A., I doubt if any Government, no matter who they were, could ever have got the same feeling abroad of the need for improvement in that respect.

I came across some figures last night in relation to agricultural output which are out of date now, but which are of importance from the point of view of stressing the necessity for progressive improvement in agricultural education and, therefore, in agricultural research. In 1929-30, our gross agricultural output was £61,000,000 and our net agricultural output was £51,000,000. In the year 1939-40, the first year before war conditions hurt output in any way, our gross agricultural output had dropped by £1,000,000 and our net agricultural output the same. It is indicative of the manner in which the whole ten years were absolutely wasted, and which waste now put us in many of the difficulties with which we are faced in relation to our standard of living generally, our balance of payments difficulties and so forth.

It is interesting to note, too, that during that 10 year period, the exports of agricultural products dropped from £31,000,000 to £22,000,000 and that the percentage of our agricultural output that was exported dropped from 50.7 to 36.7. Total domestic exports in those years, I might add in parenthesis, also dropped from £46,000,000 to £26,000,000 and, if we are not to go back to that stagnation and even declining position, it is essential that there be adequate facilites for agricultural education and agricultural research. Of course, I need hardly say that of those 10 years, Fianna Fáil were in power for seven, if not eight, of them and that, therefore, it is only Fianna Fáil has the responsibility for that decline during that period, and for failing to make any provision to see how the agricultural industry could be adequately developed. That responsibility lies at their door. We all know, in fact, that far from making any such provision, that was a period in which they were so busy trying to destroy it.

I wonder has the Minister considered in any way the provincial volume of output in relation to agriculture? Has he considered any recent figures on it and whether the result of those figures shows there is a greater problem in one part of the country rather than in another, as a geographical question rather than as a question of the type of agriculture carried on in each area? The gross output in each province, per male engaged in agriculture, expressed as a percentage of the average for the whole State is one that indicated that there was not the same progress in that respect in the other three provinces as in Leinster.

In 1926-27, the figure for Leinster was 113 per cent and it rose, in 1954, which is the last date for which I have these figures, to 126 per cent, but in Munster, in the same period, it rose only some two per cent. In Connacht, it actually went down in total output but gross production expressed in the terms as a percentage per male employed—one could understand it with the emigration—dropped by some 15 per cent. That is a matter that must give serious cause for reflection, as also the similar drop of about six per cent in the three Ulster counties which come under our jurisdiction at the present moment.

The volume of agricultural output, on the other hand, increased in those 27 years from 83 per cent., taking 1938-39 as a base, to 150 per cent. in Leinster; only to 138 per cent. in Munster; to 123 per cent. in Connacht, and 132 per cent. in the three counties of Ulster. It seems fairly clear, therefore, that the improvement has largely been in Leinster and that the other agricultural areas have not kept place at all, even considering the position on the basis of the number of persons employed in agriculture. That is something that requires very serious consideration, particularly if we are to be able to get the improvement in production that we all desire.

I was glad that the Minister took advantage of this opportunity again to stress the importance of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. The cooperative action of the British Government, to which the Minister referred, is one to be commended, but it would be quite disastrous if the period that we have obtained were not utilised for the purpose of completely eradicating bovine tuberculosis, and if there were any complacency in respect of it because of the temporary easement. I have little doubt that if we do not push ahead with this in the most emphatic manner now, and get complete co-operation on all sides towards its conclusion, then the future will be disastrous, not merely for the farmers but for the nation as a whole.

Loss of our trade because the bovine T.B. eradication scheme had not been concluded at the end of the period of grace would place our entire economy in jeopardy and would mean there would not be the wherewithal to buy outside the country the raw material on which many of the industries in Dublin and elsewhere completely depend. Therefore, it is not merely a matter for the farmers alone but for the nation as a whole to encourage and ensure the completion of the scheme at the earliest moment. The work that must be done in that respect cannot be overstressed and it cannot be repeated too often that it must be our primary consideration to which first attention must be given among all our agricultural problems at the moment.

I regret very much that the Minister saw fit during the year to terminate section B. of the Land Project. The effect, as I see it, is bound to be that we will not get the same flow in the work of machinery from farm to farm. If that flow does not come, more work will be done under section A. manually than will be done by machinery. That may provide some temporary easement in relation to employment but it will not provide the lasting and permanent improvement in our land which is required. Trying to turn back the clock is no good and, in relation to the land, machinery has come to stay. I cannot see how it is possible for contractors, particularly in the smaller counties, to arrange a continuous programme of work where section B. has been discontinued. It might be feasible to do that in the case of some of the larger farms such as we have in Kildare or Meath but, in the case of smaller farms, it will not be possible and the result almost certainly will be that a good deal of improvement work will be done, not by machinery with the consequent permanent improvement of the land, but in some other fashion.

If the reason for this was that the control of the estimating in relation to section B. was not satisfactory, then it should have been possible to devise other means of control but the position as it is, will inevitably mean a considerable diminution in employment in rural Ireland, if the gangs working at present are dispersed. I sincerely hope that the skilled drivers of excavators and such machinery will not emigrate. If they do, and are lost to the community as a whole, it will be another nail in our coffin. I do not think the Minister's decision was wise or necessary and, in the same way, I think the dismemberment of some of the gangs working on the Connemara scheme will produce an effect in that part of the country that is entirely unnecessary.

I had intended to say something about the position of the dairying industry and in respect of our exports of butter but, in view of the Minister's interview today, I think it would be undesirable to do so. I want to say, however, that I think every possible avenue should be explored to seek a settlement of the veterinary difficulties to which the Minister referred. It is a case in which it is desirable that anything that might exacerable the situation already existing should be avoided. Personally, I do not understand why arbitration is not considered as the fairest means of solution. It seems to me that, if two bodies have a dispute, arbitration by an impartial person in between is the only fair way of dealing with it. I do not know whether it is alleged that the arbitration was not fair arbitration, but no matter what is alleged it would seem essential in the national interest that the dispute should be resolved. I would like to appeal to all concerned on both sides to realise that the national interest might be considerably harmed if the difficulties at present existing are not resolved.

Last November the Government published a White Paper one chapter of which was devoted to agriculture and to which I should like to refer briefly. That White Paper correctly says that the primary consideration to which we must advert in fixing agricultural policy at present is the improvement of our grasslands. Even if one had to wait some 20 years to see that monument by Fianna Fáil to the policy of the late Deputy Patrick Hogan, it was worth waiting for. We have had an upward trend in agricultural output in recent years, as the White Paper suggests in paragraph 13, but I do not think there is anybody in any part of the country who will not admit that trend has come since 1948 and that it came largely because of two things: the bodies to which I referred a few moments ago, the farmers' bodies themselves and the sense of freedom and importance to the nation given to farmers by the expressed policy of Deputy Dillon as Minister from 1948 to 1951. The psychological outlook that the farmers got in that period coincident with the rise in the pioneering efforts of farmers' bodies together with the policies brought in by Deputy Dillon at that time, more than anything else, improved agricultural conditions and enabled the present Government to see that the main objective of agricultural policy must be to intensify the upward trend in agricultural output evidenced in recent years.

The more one goes through this White Paper, the more one sees in it an indication—not expressed; I would not expect Fianna Fáil to express it in public—of the acknowledgment that the policies of Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture were the correct policies for the country and that this White Paper, particularly its chapter on agriculture, shows that outwardly at least Fianna Fáil have turned back from many of its stupidities in the past. I sincerely hope that the conversion is a true and genuine one and that they will not deviate from it.

For example, who would have thought, after all the criticisms that Fianna Fáil had for many years of the Fine Gael Party to the effect that we over-stressed the value of grass, that they would set down in this White Paper the immense importance of improving our grasslands? The jeering and gibing—which certainly the present Minister must remember, I do not know whether or not other Deputies present remember it—of the late Deputy Patrick Hogan, and of Deputy Dillon the previous Minister for Agriculture, on the subject of grasslands improvements, are answered here now.

I do not propose to take in any way from Deputy Dillon's description, which illustrates the truth better than anything I can say, about the liming programme. The Programme has meant that we are now one of the largest limestone users per acre in Western Europe.

Is the Deputy attributing the use of lime to Deputy Dillon?

I certainly am. If Deputy Brennan wants to be reminded of the fact, there was not an eggcupful of ground limestone used in the country outside Ballyellen, County Carlow, in 1948. It is an undoubted fact.

He had not got the slightest intention of using lime.

I do not know how Deputy Brennan can possibly say that when the fact is, as I say, that when Deputy Dillon came into office in 1948 you could not get ground limestone anywhere in Ireland outside a very small area in Ballyellen, County Carlow. During his period of office the use of ground limestone started in such a way that tribute has to be paid to it even in the Government White Paper issued by Fianna Fáil. If Deputy Brennan can get over these facts, and they are facts, then he is welcome to try.

We all know how it came about.

It is a fact no matter how Deputy Brennan tries to distort it. There was none in use when we came into office and there was when we left and the scheme was well under way.

Returning to the White Paper, I see that in Paragraph 26 it says that the number of store cattle has increased considerably because of the great improvement in the survival rate of young cattle. I remember in 1948 sitting in the seat in which Deputy Brennan is now sitting and speaking on the first Estimate for Agriculture introduced by Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture. I remember being given, by people throughout the country who knew their job, the picture of the manner in which cattle were dying next door to my constituency, and on the edges of it, from phosphorus. I remember being told in County Clare how calves and young cattle were dying. The number of store cattle has increased considerably because of the great improvement in the survival rate, an improvement in the survival rate that arose—and again it cannot be denied by Deputy Brennan—during the period when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture and because of his broad outlook in relation to the introduction of new and modern methods of veterinary medicine.

I am glad to see in the White Paper the acknowledgment of the increase in the number of sheep and lambs. When the present Minister left office in 1947 we were in a very much more unfortunate position. The increase was one that commenced in 1948 and was something that had been going in the reverse direction during the pre-war period of Government by Fianna Fáil and therefore not a matter which can be dealt with solely on the basis of saying that the war, and the aftermath of war, was responsible for the manner in which cattle and sheep had decreased under Fianna Fáil.

The White Paper also deals with the scheme for the guaranteed minimum export price for Grade A pigs to which I referred earlier. That scheme was introduced, not by Fianna Fáil, but by the last inter-Party Government, and it is well that such a good scheme has been adopted by the present Government. A tribute is paid in this document also to the improvement of feeding barley. The newer strains of feeding barley, I think Deputy Brennan will discover, were brought in and developed when Deputy Dillon was in charge of the Department of Agriculture. Even going on to poultry, we see that foundation stocks of suitable strains for the broiler trade were imported by the Department of Agriculture some time ago from the United States of America. They were imported by the Department of Agriculture when Deputy Dillon was in charge. Again I am glad to see that tribute is paid to that. We also see in this document references to the production of turkeys and there is references to the fact that the Department has imported foundation stocks of certain strains from the United States and they are now available to producers generally. They were imported too, not under Fianna Fáil, but when Deputy Dillon was in charge.

The white turkeys?

Yes, those at which you jeered so much and which you have now come to accept are worth consideration.

You have left us nothing to do at all.

I wonder why we are over here at all?

I shall tell you why. We are over here because we told the truth and the Deputies opposite did not, and because the Deputies opposite have much better facilities for putting over their propaganda by reason of the large subscriptions they get from certain people and by reason of the tied newspapers they have. Ask anybody the question and you will get the same answer: "Where would Fianna Fáil be without their tied newspapers?"

These questions do not arise on the Estimate.

You are over here because you led the people to believe——

Because they found you out.

We are over here and you are over there because during the three years we were in power, and particularly during the end of that period, in every aspect of national policy, the leaders and Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party misled the people into believing that if they got the opportunity in Government, they would make radical changes affecting the people.

If you have done all these things, what goods is our policy?

Let us get back to the Estimate.

I am talking on the Estimate, if Deputy Brennan will allow me. The fact is that in every aspect of policy that has arisen since that time, Fianna Fáil have gone back on their pledges to the people and they are finding in every single constituency that the people now realise the real worth—and that is nothing—of any promises by Fianna Fáil.

We came in to pay your debts.

The Minister for Agriculture would be wiser to keep quiet about that. We provided more money in the last year than he provided when Minister for Local Government and he is going around the country deliberately distorting that matter. I would ask him to make that file available also.

I have documentary evidence of it.

Will the Minister produce it on the Table of the House?

I have not spoken of it.

Because the Minister knows he would be answered to his face. Instead, he goes down the country to say it.

I shall produce it to any person outside.

Put it on the Table of the House.

No, I shall not.

Because the Minister knows it is not true. The Minister is producing his own version to somebody else.

We came in to pay your debts.

Produce the evidence in the Dáil.

Your colleague on your left will tell you all about it. You put him "in the soup" and left him there.

Put the document on the Table. The Minister has gone around the country disseminating false propaganda about me. I now challenge him to put that document on the Table. He mentioned me in his last public speech.

The Deputy went over to Local Government, took charge and prepared their Estimates.

Put that document on the Table. Do not tell untruths about it.

We cannot have a discussion on Local Government at this stage.

Put the document on the Table.

I shall be using it against the Deputy for the next 20 years, if I am alive.

Deputy Sweetman spoke for over an hour but his contribution was not one of the constructive nature one would expect from a former Minister for Finance. He made a hackneyed, long-drawn out speech, full of platitudes, in which he patted his colleagues on the back. I wonder how they were ever defeated and why we are not still the Opposition?

You would be if we got a chance in the morning.

Deputy Sweetman alleged that certain things happened. He told us of the Utopia created by his colleagues for the people. If the people were so fond of them, why are they not the Government still? The Deputy's speech on this most important subject would have fallen flat but for the help he got from some of us by way of interruption. We were forced to contradict a number of false allegations he made. The Deputy controlled the Department of Finance for some years.

He spent all the money.

In 1957, the people were so anxious to get rid of the then Government that they could not to go the polls quickly enough. We need not have put up a poster or made a promise. The only mistake we made——

Was that you made promises.

——was that we spent money on propaganda. Had we never put up a poster, we still would have been voted in with a majority.

Deputy Burke must relate his remarks to agriculture. We are discussing the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

I am replying to Deputy Sweetman. One of the greatest mistakes Fianna Fáil ever made was to bother to do anything. The people would have voted us in anyway. Notwithstanding all Deputy Sweetman told us about the Utopia created by Deputy Dillon and the bad things done by the present Minister, the present situation is that the rural people can now get a few "bob", if they want it. There is now money in the Agricultural Credit Corporation for our farmers. It was not there in 1957. Now they can get credit instead of a letter from the bank turning them down. Things have changed as a result of the change in Government. We must not be too badly off if such credit can be made available.

The Minister for Agriculture had a very dirty and a very tough job when he was Minister for Local Government. He knew the financial state of the country; he knew the amount of money which was at his disposal; he knew the claims that had been made by a number of people; he knew the number of contractors who had been broken; and he knew the number of applicants who had been refused loans. The Deputy who was Minister for Finance in the last inter-Party Government now tries to put it down our necks that things were never so good as when he was in office. I am sorry to have to speak on such matters because I believe in trying to make a useful contribution to such a very important debate as the debate on the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture.

Of course the Deputy knows that he is entirely inaccurate in everything he has just said.

The facts are there.

The facts are there and the Deputy should have a look at them.

The people know the facts. They have given their judgment and their decision, and may God bless them. I want to compliment the Minister on the help which I personally have received from him, and the courtesy I have received from his Department on the occasions when I had to make representations to his officials on various matters concerning my constituents.

In 1947, the country was unfortunate enough to go through a very bad harvest and a very bad Spring. At that time, a large number of sheep and cattle died in County Dublin, as well as in other counties. In my area, we lost thousands of sheep in the hills of south County Dublin. The Minister came to the aid of the sheep owners. He introduced a scheme not only for Dublin but for a number of other areas. He gave loans free of interest for a period of three years to the people who lost their stock, which were of great assistance to them.

The Minister had a very tough time because not withstanding the thousands and thousands of sheep and cattle which were lost, we had to feed the people in that difficult period after the war. Deputy Sweetman told the House this morning that they did all the glorious things in 1948/49, but I want to remind the House of the difficulties we had in 1947 in trying to feed our people after the bad harvest of 1946 and the bad Spring of 1947 when we suffered losses of stock, as well as the loss of the harvest.

The Minister did everything he could, by introducing an interest-free scheme, to give the farmers a chance of re-stocking their land. That scheme was welcome, and it proved to be excellent, and of course, his successor, Deputy Dillon, reaped the harvest of the good work which the Minister had done. The weather improved and various other things were satisfactory, so the Opposition need not shout about 1947 because it was one of the worst years through which the country passed.

In the last season, the Minister had another tough job. He had many problems to meet. He had to try to pay all the bad debts left by his predecessors and he had to try to meet the claims of the farmers as fairly as possible. He did his best to help the farmers who had had a very bad season. We were all very sorry for those farmers and we sympathise deeply with them. The Government and the Minister gave all the help they could to those farmers, so far as their resources permitted.

I want to say again to the Minister that he has been most helpful to me on the many occasions when I had to make representations to him on behalf of my farmer constituents in County Dublin. I want to thank him for putting more money into the Agricultural Credit Corporation to assist the farmers. I was speaking to some of my constituents who told me that during the past few months some of them lost a considerable amount of money as a result of wheat and potato losses following on the bad year. They lost quite a lot of money and it will take them years to recover those losses.

The credit facilities which the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance made available to the farmers are very greatly appreciated and I am only sorry that the resources of the State are not as large as they were when the Minister gave interest-free schemes to the people who had lost their stock in 1946/47. Last season, hundreds of sheep were lost in County Dublin through fluke, so I am glad that loans are available from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the other schemes initiated by the Minister. I want to thank the Minister and I hope he will continue the good work of helping these farmers who have had considerable losses and some of whom are in very straitened circumstances from which it will take them years to recover. I sometimes hear complaints that people find it heard to get these loans. I have helped some such cases individually and I have acquainted the Minister and the Agricultural Credit Corporation of them and I have been reasonably successful in my representations.

The Veterinary Associations is a very important body. I should like to support the Minister in his appeal to them regarding the dispute which has continued for a long time. Both sides agreed to arbitration. The Association is a body of intelligent men. They committed themselves to arbitration but some misunderstanding arose. Surely there must be some other way of resolving that dispute. I support the Minister in his appeal to the Veterinary Association to consider the harm they are doing the country and their own very honourable association by their present attitude. It should be possible to have a conference between the Association and the officials of the Minister's Department to discuss the merits of the dispute and to try to find some methods of resolving it.

There has never yet been a misunderstanding that has not been capable of solution and, if an exchange of views takes place in a spirit of goodwill, I am sure a solution will be found to the present dispute. I have had experience of a number of misunderstanding in the past. Very often, even if an immediate solution were not found, the fact that grievances had been discussed and had been lent a sympathetic ear helped, in the long run, to iron out whatever difficulties existed. Good is invariably achieved as a result of such conferences. I hope that both sides will see their way to finding some common ground of understanding and I support the Minister in his desire that this dispute will end in the very near future.

I compliment the Minister and his Department on the production of this very informative paper dealing with all phases of our agricultural economy.

Hear, hear!

It is, indeed, a most enlightened document. With regard to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, I trust our farmers will respond to the appeal made by the Minister this morning. Bovine tuberculosis is a very serious matter, not only for the individual farmer but for the country as a whole. The cattle trade is our most important industry and anything that militates against it must have repercussions on the urban and suburban dweller in the same way as it affects those living in the rural areas.

Hear, hear!

Every farmer has his part to play. Every farmer should realise that it is he himself who must survive. Every farmer must appreciate that his function is not merely to please the Minister for Agriculture. If the country is to survive, the Irish farmer must survive. If the country is to survive, the Irish farmer must play his part. If the Minister and his predecessor were 20 times better, unless the essential co-operation is forthcoming from the individual farmers, nothing worthwhile will be achieved. The Minister is handling the position very well. I found great pleasure in reading his report and listening to his speech here this morning. I hope that his efforts for the eradication of bovine T.B. will be crowned with success and I hope that the farmers will play their part and co-operate fully with the Minister and his Department.

I am very happy to see the progress being made in the farm buildings scheme.

Hear, hear!

In 1947, when the Minister introduced this scheme, I thought it was an excellent one and marked a definite advance in our agricultural economy. I should like our farmers now to take more advantage of this scheme.

1949 is the relevant date.

In order to put the matter on the records of the House, in 1947, I put a question down about this farm buildings scheme. The present Minister was then Minister for Agriculture, too. I am sure I shall be able to get that question and the Minister's reply for Deputy Dillon's information. As I say, that scheme marked a wonderful advance. I have no wish to take from the Deputy who interrupted. I was glad he continued the good work started by his predecessor.

Saying is one thing: doing is another.

I am very interested in the supply of water to farms.

Hear, hear!

Water is most essential. It was the present Minister who introduced the scheme for the sinking of pumps and the provision of fresh, running water to our farms. That marked an important advance. If the country could afford it, I should like to see fresh water supplied to every farm because more disease is caused in livestock through cattle drinking bad water than through anything else.

I hope they do not bring cattle into the kitchen because the fresh water goes only as far as the kitchen sink.

A definite advance has been made over the years in soil testing.

What is the progress?

The bicycle!

There was no bicycle. There was only a wheel, but there was a bottle tied to it.

The most important matter so far as our farmers are concerned is the provision of a healthy export market for our agricultural produce and the by-products from the land. The home market has been protected, but we have now reached saturation point. Fianna Fáil, on becoming the Government of the country, gave the farmers every protection and all the help they needed to develop their economy. We have now reached saturation point in the growing of wheat. That may be due to some extent to people other than farmers entering into the production of wheat. The time has now come when we must seek an export market for our agricultural produce and its by-products. In this excellent review provided for our information by the Minister this morning, there are details of the countries to which we export. It is a big problem. I hope the Minister and his Department will succeed in developing export markets for our products.

On other Estimates I have discussed the possibility of developing exports for a by-product of barley, namely, whiskey. The expansion of whiskey exports would encourage farmers to increase substantially the acreage under barley. There is tremendous potential there for creating employment, increasing our external assets and developments of all kinds.

In regard to exports, I should like to see an arrangement whereby we would import £1 worth for every £1 worth exported. I mean that we should import only from countries who take our exports. While the Minister and his colleagues have done all in their power to negotiate trade agreements, the markets for our exports are limited unless we take a firm stand and inform those countries from whom we import that we shall continue to do so provided they accept our products. I do not intend to go into detail on this matter but it is of great national importance. I trust the Minister will succeed in securing markets for more of our products. In that way we can hope to increase the prosperity of the farmers.

In County Dublin there is a surplus of vegetables at certain times. Last year, of course, was an exceptionally bad year and there was no surplus. Transport costs affect the export of certain surplus vegetables to the British market. Some years ago I was associated with a few farmers in an effort to export surplus vegetables to the British markets. The cost, especially in the case of cabbage and cauliflower, was prohibitive, although the market was there. If transport costs could be reduced, there is a potential market for surplus vegetables in England and Scotland at certain times of the year.

Growers in County Dublin are interested in the quick-freezing of vegetables of all kinds. When there is a surplus, the growers are up against the problem created by a slump. I compliment the Minister on the good work he is doing and the number of trade agreements he has succeeded in negotiating. I hope he will continue on those lines.

Are we not going to hear the Deputy on the Land Project?

Oh, Deputy Flanagan. I did not think he was in the House at all. As a matter of fact, I spoke on the matters with which I am deeply concerned. To reply to the Deputy, the people I represent are very happy about the Land Project because anyone who is anxious to go ahead with the scheme can easily do so. I have negotiated a number of schemes for people in County Dublin and they are very pleased with the action taken by the Minister for Agriculture. I conclude by wishing the Minister well. I hope he will continue his good work.

I should like to compliment the Minister and the officers of his Department for the "Notes on Some Activities of the Department" supplied to Deputies this morning. The only regret we have is that we had not got them a day or two earlier, so that we could have studied them. They make most interesting reading and afford Deputies an opportunity of learning about the various activities of the Department. Many interesting facts are made known to Deputies who represent either a milk-producing or a wheat-growing area.

It is interesting to note the increased acreage under various crops between 1948 and 1958. Undoubtdly, we can and should produce as much wheat as possible but, unfortunately, our climatic conditions are such that many farmers run gave risk in growing wheat. The same applies to barley and oats. As far as possible, the policy of guaranteed prices should continue so that producers will be assured of a reasonable price. No Government can guarantee whether conditions. Last year, due to the bad weather, farmers, especially tillage farmers, suffered heavy losses. At the present time, when we are exporting bacon and beef to the British and other markets, the tillage farmer, who produces the food from which these commodities are produced, plays an important part.

It is unfortunate that, this year, large quantities of wheat have had to be imported. That will always be the case when there is a bad season. It has been hinted already that wheat production this year may not be as great as it was in other years. If any assurance is needed, I am sure the Department of Agriculture will give that assurance to wheat-growers. We should produce in this country all the foodstuffs that we need for human or animal consumption. In the event of surpluses of wheat, barley and oats, these commodities should be made available at the lowest possible price so as to encourage increased production of pigs and beef.

We know the importance of the cattle trade. One would hesitate to suggest the result on our balance of payments had the cattle trade collapsed last year, as it did in other years. There is an element of good and bad luck in every trade but credit must be given to the farmers for the way in which they have responded to the appeals made to them to increase production. The Government have been giving guaranteed prices for wheat and barley. They should also included oats in the guaranteed price. We have to import oats in this year and I understand that barley has to be imported. We now have storage facilities in the country and it should be possible to carry over a certain amount of oats and barley from year to year, so as to avoid the necessity to import any of these commodities.

The returns in the case of cattle production are very heartening. The notes are so well complied by the Department that one can just put a finger on each item.

In cattle production, it is noticeable that there are less and less of the three year old but more of the younger stock. It is evident that the trend is in that direction and that our farmers are continuing to produce more and more cattle. That is clearly shown by the fact that milking cows are on the increase. Here we have the real farming industry, when you combine cattle, sheep and pig production with production of cereals, such as wheat, oats and barley. All this should be encouraged by giving our farmers a fair price. I do not want to say to the Government that the farmers should be given tempting prices. There should be this element, that when people go into farming, whether tillage or cattle production, they would know there is continuity. We do not want to have farmers overproducing barley and oats and left without any guarantee. If that guarantee is forthcoming, there would be some floor level of prices which would enable them to look with confidence to the production which is so badly needed for the country.

One item interested me very much, as I come from a milk producing county, in which we have the famous condensed milk factory operated by Cleeves of Limerick, who for many years have been producing condensed milk, cream and cheese and sending these products to many parts of the world. That industry is of great importance to Limerick. It is interesting to note here that the trend is in the right direction. It appears that chocolate crumb valued at £4,685,000 last year was exported and that is a very welcome change. We know that to market our butter on the British market, between the Government subsidy and the producers' contribution, involves a very substantial amount of money. Here we have cream, condensed milk, cheese and other products. This new trend, if we can keep it in that direction, will do much to help our dairy farmers. I say with all sincerity that we might give more attention to the production of those commodities and less to the production of creamery butter and in that way we might have a better economy.

From 1952 to 1957, there was a considerable increase in creamery butter production. In 1947, there was a record production of 977,000 cwt. That was very creditable. I do not know the figures for 1958, but it is evident that last year was a particularly difficult year in the British market for the sale of butter. I understand prices are much better this year. There again, I feel that the Government will have to devise some scheme of cushioning the dairy farmers, and the creameries which produce butter, against violent fluctuations. When you are protecting an industry, the raw materials of which are produced in your own country, that money is not lost. People might say the farmers are getting too much in guarantees, but when one considers that the farmer is a prime producer of wealth, he is entitled to be relieved of the worries associated with that production.

Regarding the Land Project and the Lime Schemes, farmers now are more inclined than they were some years ago, when no inducement was offered to reclaim land, to drain it, lime it and fertilise it. As we all know, land is fetching very high prices now, as the farmers who are producing cattle are much better off than they were, and there is an inclination amongst farmers and farmers' sons to do something better with the land than in previous years. It is creditable to see that so much has been done under the Land Project and is still being done. The Government thought well to alter the scheme and to encourage people by giving them a grant to do their own work. I suppose that is very creditable. Nevertheless, there are some farmers who have not got their own help to do that kind of work themselves and they miss the possibility of using Section B of the Land Project, which enables them to do the work and have the cost added on to the land annuities. That section should not have been dropped altogether, but should have been retained to suit those sections of our people who are progressive in mind but who have not got their own help as other farmers have and who as a result are not as ready and anxious to do the improvements which they might otherwise do.

Another very welcome trend is that farmers are becoming more keenly interested in farming activities. That is due to the agricultural instructors and to our veterinary services. Cattle died years ago of various diseases but now such diseases can be treated and cattle cured of them. This is giving a very lively interest to farmers' sons. They are anxious today to join farmers' organisations. It is very satisfactory to know that they can meet in Macra na Feirme, the National Farmers' Association and in the Milk Producers' Associations in the milk producing counties. The combined knowledge and facilities given by the county committees of agriculture, under the Department of Agriculture, aim at making the farmers more contented on the land.

In regard to our veterinary services, I am sorry to hear the Minister say to-day that there is evidently no immediate sign of the difficulties between his Department and the veterinary services being healed. I trust they will be healed, as it is unfortunate to have a matter of that kind lingering on, particularly when our veterinary services give to the farmers a service they need individually and a service which in the long run is very much needed in the country. When one considers the number of young calves that died of various diseases under, say, a month, two months, and so forth, we must be thankful that there are so many remedies to help in such cases. In view of the present value of the cattle population, their assistance to us is very considerable.

We hoped to have a horseflesh factory in Limerick. Promises were made to that effect. About two years ago, I was bothered in my capacity as a Teachta Dála by many people who were very concerned about the grave hardships our horses and particularly our old horses had to suffer. At that time, I inquired of the Limerick Steamship Company, who were responsible for a good deal of the export of those animals to the Continent, about the position. I was informed that while there was some hardship, the reports were greatly exaggerated. Many well-meaning people raised—if I may use the expression—an unholy stink against the then Minister for Agriculture in regard to that matter.

I fail to understand why it is that many of these same people are not now so very anxious to come forward to put that industry on its feet, that is, if it can be done at all. I have a slight suspicion that some of them are inclined to be troublesome when it suits them. Certainly, many people bothered me. Day in and day out, I received circulars in regard to the matter. Now I see no effort being made, although there are premises near Limerick in which much-needed employment could be given. I suppose the fact of the matter is that there is no such trade to be got and that, therefore, our horses must go across and nobody is inquiring about their health.

Deputy, Booth, no doubt, will shortly inquire. It is a matter on which he is very eloquent.

I want to refer to the great agitation that has been carried on for a number of years about milk costings. It is understandable that a person engaged in industry or farming a should be concerned with costings. I fear that grave harm was done to our farmers by leading them to believe that a Milk Costings Commission should be set up to tell us the exact price milk should be. In view of the fact that we have to sell our milk products outside this country, we must be guided to a great extent by whatever prices we get for our butter, cheese, chocolate crumb, and so on. The campaign was carried on in my county, in particular, and I have referred to it before. I am glad to see that, to a certain extent, the Commission has been wound up, although at a cost of £30,000.

One cannot help feeling that a disturbance of that kind, created for political purposes, is very injurious. I think it was for that purpose and that purpose only that farmers were led to believe that if milk costings were produced, they would get a much higher price. Deputy Dillon was blamed for withholding the report of the Milk Costings Commission but he was not the man who introduced it or authorised it. Therefore, it came to be reported back to the Party and to the Minister who was the author of it. It is a great pity that too much of politics should be brought into a matter of such importance.

We have to deal with that kind of thing on corporations or councils. One section of people in a corporation or council will give the tenants in the corporation or council houses an idea that they are being overcharged for rent, creating false ideas in their minds as to the actions of certain other members of the corporation or council and the manager. In the same way, in relation to milk costings, people were led to believe that if one Party were in power, as against another, a higher price would be paid. I think it is proved now beyond all doubt that no Party can give to the people a greater price for their product than it is possible to obtain from other sections of the community.

One has to be fair. If you give cheap houses in the cities to the working-class people in general at the expense of the ratepayers, I think that that is very unfair but certainly some section must be given cheap houses. In the same way, you cannot give high prices for milk or milk products and expect to be repaid by poor people who cannot afford it. There is always a happy medium. I am not blaming any Government but I feel the time has come when milk and farming interests generally should be taken away from Party politics. For that reason, I think that Macra na Feirme, the National Farmers' Association and the milk producers are doing a great national service. I hope that when decent young men go into these organisations, they will not enter them for the purpose of getting at one another's throats, through the organisation, for political purposes.

It is very gratifying indeed to note the present attitude of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. When I went into the Agricultural Credit Corporation the last time, I was received very well. I could not understand what had happened. I must say that there has been a very great change from the attitude of some years ago. When you went in looking for money for a farmer they would almost call a policeman at that time. Now it is quite a different story. The same applies to a bank manager. It is very nice to know that there are farmers and bank managers in the country who can now do business without going near any Government Department. That is very creditable. It is a very happy position that our banks are now ready, and perhaps more than ready, to give loans to credit-worthy farmers.

We know that everybody cannot be classed at the same financial or credit-worthy level. There are credit-worthy farmers in the country who can now go in and get a loan on the security of the lease of their land. That is a trend in the right direction. I would say it is due entirely to the fact that our farming organisations have come together. They have shown their independence and their interest, not alone in themselves but in the land of Ireland. They have proved, I think, to all sections that a farmers and a farm well-managed can be as credit-worthy as any of our most prosperous industries.

It is undoubtedly true that there are farmers in the country who cannot go ahead and make very much headway. For various reasons, they are not able to obtain the credit they require. Perhaps there is some family or other lien on their holding and they are not able to avail of the present facilities. I have come across a number of them. It is strange that there should be such a large number of that type of farmer in the country still.

We are very grateful to the Minister and to the Department for the particulars given us here this morning. Although I live in the city, part of my constituency is in the county. As one born on the land, I have always taken an interest in statistics of this kind. By putting these particulars before us, we are enabled to examine the work of the Department of Agriculture and to pay tribute where tribute is due and criticise when we feel that criticism is merited. I got this document only an hour ago. I could not hope to contribute so early to this debate without these particulars because I should not be able to quote matters correctly.

I wish the Department every success in the efforts made to solve the many problems which exist both for the Department and the farming community. I trust that when these farming organisations meet the Minister everything possible will be done in the national interest to iron out all the difficulties. Whether we are living in the city or in the country, our prosperity depends on agriculture. Nowadays life is more pleasant for the rural dwellers. They are enjoying many of the amenities which city people have enjoyed for years. There is rural electrification and more mechanisation on the farm.

A deputation is meeting the Minister today at 3 o'clock in connection with milk prices. It would be most regrettable if a solution to that problem could not be found. The Minister has his difficulties as well as the farmer, but we who live among the farmers feel they are entitled to favourable consideration in this matter.

This Estimate gives us the opportunity we get annually of reviewing the work of the Department. As is always rightly said, it affects the interests of practically every Deputy in the House, whether a rural or an urban Deputy. Above all members of the Cabinet, I never envied the Minister for Agriculture his job. It is one of the most difficult Ministries, and any man who thinks he can please all the people all the time in that Ministry would be suffering from a serious illusion. There are things which a Minister can do and things which a Minister cannot do, and to foster the idea that a Minister can do everything for the farmers is not merely misleading the farmer but is placing that Minister in a position from which he will find it difficult to extricate himself. I am not too sure that Deputy Dillon, during his period of office, did not try to create the feeling that he had a panacea for all the ills which affected agriculture. I do not say that in any critical fashion, but I do not think it is the right impression to create, and very often it boomerangs and has the opposite effect to that expected.

The farmer should be made to realise that he will get out of the agricultural industry a livelihood commensurate only with the effort he puts into it. The sooner all sections of the community realise that and cease to depend entirely on what the Government can do the better it will be for everybody. There are many things which the State can and must do in relation to agriculture, but they must not be an end in themselves. They only indicate the right course economically or comercially which a farmer can take.

The previous speaker made a reasonable speech and did not indulge in any recriminations. He said there were many incentives for farmers to drain their land, and so forth. That was one of my misgivings from the outset in regard to the land project. Many of the older men must be greatly surprised on learning that people now can actually be paid by the Government for doing work which they regarded as a pleasant duty to do and as essential to the successful running of their farm—going out in the winter time to carry out their own drainage. Every small farm shows the track of the lime kiln where they burnt the lime with which they dressed the land. They did these things themselves because they found it paid and that is the point on which we should lay most emphasis in regard to agriculture generally.

If the farmer is made to realise that a certain course of action will ultimately be profitable to him we do not need to give him incentives to do them. If a farmer appreciates that it is profitable to increase the fertility of his land, to grow more crops, more grass or to do anything else with his land, he will set about doing it. I have never known a farmer who would not go out to produce something he found it profitable to produce.

I was not disappointed therefore— and I am not saying this because this action was taken by Fianna Fáil— when one section of the Land Project was discontinued and a subsidy for fertiliser brought into being. It was a step in the right direction. It might not have been possible to do that at the outset. Perhaps it was possible to do it only when we had the scheme in operation for a certain time and came to realise how much it was costing per acre for work which was not immediately productive of wealth. I doubt very much if much of the money spent under Section B of the scheme will ever show a return commensurate with the burden it has imposed on the farmer, on the holding and on the Exchequer. If the farmer is made to realise that increased fertility on his grassland or any crop will give him a return commensurate with a reasonable effort on his part, he will always be prepared to make that effort.

Year after year on this Estimate, I have alluded to a few things which I felt were at the root of our difficulties. One was the lack of progress in agricultural education and the other the lack of credit facilities to the farmer. Those are the root cause of retarded progress in comparison with other countries in a similar position. We have now broken the back of these problems and I believe agriculture is on the way to better times. It is pleasing to see that at last a farmer can look the bank manager straight in the face, that he is welcomed when he seeks credit facilities. Since this State was founded we have been taking about agriculture being our most important industry; yet the shopkeeper with a few boxes on the shelves could go to the bank and get extended credit facilities but a farmer with a reasonably sized farm found it difficult to secure an overdraft. The stage has now been reached when a farmer can get facilities while people in other businesses may not succeed so well.

We have certainly taken a great step towards the improvement of agricultural education. I have repeatedly on this Estimate referred to a situation in this country where you found a number of boys growing up in a family on a farm. Most often, it is the dull boy who is kept at home to do the very task which requires the best brains of the family and where there is greatest outlet for all the boy's training. I think that position is passing. People realise that farming is a scientific matter which will yield dividends commensurate with the training and educational facilities afforded to the person operating the farm.

Many people who talk about agriculture do not seem to appreciate that it is a rather mixed industry in which there are so many facets. We in Donegal are faced, perhaps, with a problem which is not so much akin to the problem in the south of Ireland and certainly not the Midlands. We have a variety of farms. In East Donegal, we have the best tillage area in Ireland. We have the mountainous lands of the Rosses where there are totally uneconomic holdings and where people could not possibly be expected to exist on the land alone, no matter how great an effort they might make.

Then you have in the south-west of the county the almost economic holding which is really a difficult problem in itself. It is not quite good enough for a farmer to enjoy a reasonably high standard of living, no matter how hard he may work, and it is not sufficiently small to be regarded as an uneconomic holding. It is the type of land where the farmer persistently tries to make an effort and never attains a high standard, no matter how well he may manage the holding.

I do not propose to refer to something which would be more appropriately raised on the Estimate for the Department of Lands, but in those areas I should like to see the Land Commission coming to the rescue of the people whose holdings are not quite large enough. They should give them an additional parcel of land contiguous to their holding so that the holding might be made economic. That is a matter for the Department of Lands and I shall not discuss it now.

There are many things which can be done for the small farmers. Someone has been talking recently about the family farm as against what has been described as the factory farm. Much can be done for the small farmer. I doubt if the preponderance of our educational effort in regard to agriculture is directed to that aspect of farming. A small farmer does not tend towards better management, if he tries to imitate the bigger farmer. I think he should be encouraged to concentrate upon the rearing of pigs, poultry and the growing of soft fruits and vegetables, with, of course, a certain amount of tillage and a couple of cows and a few store cattle of which he can dispose each year.

These farms are very often situated in a place convenient to turbary. The farmer who judiciously manages such a holding can be fairly self-contained, if there is good management of the type which applies to the small farm. I should like the Minister to give particular attention to the small farmer. I believe he is very conversant with the type of management which is required on that sort of holding. While the large farmer claims he is the be all and end all of our economy, it should be appreciated that the small farmer in his contribution to the store cattle population—and most important point of all—in his contribution towards the bringing up a family on a farm—very often large families of 12, 13 and 14 are reared in decent conditions—is also contributing to the economy.

I should not like to create the impression that the Government will spoon-feed those people, but at least it should be made known to them that there are things they can do even on a small farm. The people should not abandon hope. The very psychology of the feeling that one cannot live reasonably comfortably on a small farm creates an unsettled feeling. Once they feel that they are not destined to live on the small farm, they never make any effort to plan for the future and that ultimately ends up in emigration. If that psychology could be changed; if the feeling of permanency and stability could be fostered, we would reach a position which we attained in this country at a time when the people had to work on the small farms because there was no other outlet in regard to surplus land for them.

We are reaching that stage. It is a most difficult task. It is very difficult for a farmer to keep his son working on the land if the son feels that by speculating the price of a ticket to some of the industrial towns in England, he will put himself in the position of earning £10, £12 and £14 a week, spending Saturday evening in the "local" and carrying on with that until he obtains sufficient money to enable him to come back to purchase a farm or live on the old farm.

That unsettled feeling was fostered by the belief that an effort was not required but that Government, particularly when we got self-government, would do everything and that self-effort did not matter as much as what the Government were prepared to do. The sooner we kill that feeling and the sooner we make them realise that the Government helps only those who help themselves, the better. We shall really have done something then to establish a greater feeling of stability and kill the unrest which very often is the root cause of the movement of population and people failing to settle down to plan for the future. On a farm particularly, if one feels he is not destined to remain there, there is a great lack of planning and without planning for the future for our land, management will not result and consequently the place is eventually abandoned.

I do not want to deal with anything concerned with milk prices. It does not concern us a lot in Donegal. It is a matter which is "hot" at the moment, if not, sub judice. Those who live in the cities and those who like to buy their milk and butter as cheaply as they can, naturally appreciate the difficult problem which is there. It is not so easy of solution. I think that a mutual appreciation of the difficulties amongst all those concerned will eventually make the task much easier. It is not possible to go on paying heavy subsidies to sell thing on the markets of the world at the moment—and at the same time, encourage increased production. As an agricultural country we are a high-cost producing country. Our costs are higher in comparison with those of other countries and unless we can bring down costs, as suggested in the White Paper, by efficiency and management, we might find a time in the future when we will have great difficulty in competing on foreign markets.

The increase in the production of butter has been magnificient over past years and is something for which we should be thankful. As has been pointed out here frequently, it is not such a serious matter in our economics as some people would have you believe when there is an increase in butter production. It is always bound to show an increase in capital production.

There is no other way of getting increased production in cattle except by having more calves produced so that, if we are to have that essential increase in capital production, it almost necessarily follows that we will have an increase in milk production and this problem of subsidising butter for export is likely to remain with us for a very long time. There may be efforts made to deal with it in different directions otherwise, but I doubt if we shall ever alleviate the problem to such an extent as to relieve the Exchequer from coming to the aid of the producers.

Talking of subsidies, I was glad to learn from the White Paper of the attitude of the Minister and his Department with regard to agricultural exports generally. I am one of those who believe that price supports are not a good method of strengthening our economy and, while price supports may be essential in some cases in order to ensure production and to maintain a certain standard of production, it is not a desirable thing and does react in so far as it is unfair to the taxpayer who is asked, not merely to pay as a consumer, but also to contribute to production as well.

Agricultural production generally is regarded by those people who have gone into the figures as being divided up equally between three sources. One-third is consumed on the farms, one-third goes to the home market, and the remaining one-third is exported, so that for any further increase in production we shall have to look to the export market to dispose of almost all of it. A proper upsurge in production would result in our being able to maintain a bigger population at home, but that increased population would not be able to absorb all of it. Securing markets abroad would then be the important thing, to dispose of the increase in production which we hope to be able to show in the years to come. We must concentrate on more efficient methods of production and that brings me again——

Does the Deputy really believe that our competitors do not subsidise their products on the export market?

We know they do.

Every one of them.

But would the former Minister say he is in favour of subsidising everything?

I do not believe in letting the other fellows force us out of our markets by concealed subsidies.

I do not think we would be facing in the right direction if we based our future policy for exports on subsidies and price supports. I believe we should concentrate on efficiency of production and increase production by better methods, and so forth, in fields in which there is much room for improvement at the moment. Before Deputy Dillon interrupted, I was about to say that poses a separate problem for the farmer with a medium-sized farm. Generally everybody knows farming is undergoing a complete revolution at the moment, and in many places, where the plough did not come in between the spade and the tractor, many farms are now being worked by machinery where ploughs had not actually been introduced.

That may sound a paradoxical statement to some people but it is actually true. The only trouble is that, on smaller holdings, many farmers cannot afford the necessary machinery which will take the drudgery out of farming and give increased production by less effort. I was about to suggest, in that respect, that the Minister should get some section of his Department to apply themselves to the possibility of creating, in each parish, a co-operative machinery centre, or some such system of co-operation whereby machinery would be at the disposal of the small farmer. He cannot go out and buy a tractor and all the fittings pertaining thereto for the sake of his own 30 acre farm. It may be a 100 acre farm in Donegal but only about 10 acres might be tillable. By creating such centres a farmer could avail of the machinery at the time he wants it, and it can be placed on rota amongst the different holdings in an area.

I do not know if the N.F.A. or any of the other agricultural organisations have yet made any attempt to foster that idea but I see in it a great help to people on small holdings. A man with a small farm will not be able to compete using primitive methods. He cannot afford to acquire machinery of his own. The size of his holding does not justify that but, if there was a co-operative system established whereby the different implements attached to mechanised machinery would be available, he would avail of that machinery and thereby secure for himself the necessary increased production without the added drudgery which that sometimes entails.

I do not wish to take too long or to cover every aspect of this rather comprehensive Estimate, but I thought I should make some reference to that part which is very much near to my heart with regard to conditions in my own area. We all find it difficult to deal with many points in this House without becoming parochial at times, and personally I certainly feel there is much to be done with regard to the economy of the small holding. I do not like to indulge too much in pious platitudes, nor do I like placing blame too much on previous Ministers. Deputy Sweetman, when speaking, seemed to give the credit for everything that is good in agriculture to what Deputy Dillon did.

And quite rightly.

And he gave credit for everything that went wrong to the present Minister and the Fianna Fáil Government generally. I take it that when a Minister takes over a portfolio, it is his ambition to do all the good he can. I think the present Minister is an anxious and as sincere as any man who ever occupied the position he holds. In fact, he possesses some of the qualities which are essential to success in that Ministry. He does not try to make everybody believe that he is doing everything for everybody. That is not a good thing to do. Even agricultural organisations do not always come along with a perfect idea and sometimes they can be rather sectional. You can do something for a section in agriculture, or in any other sphere of economic development in the community, and at the same time tread on the corns, perhaps, of an equally important section.

Certainly, no organised section of agriculture should be led to believe that just because they exercise a certain influence over a large section of votes, by that means alone they can influence the Department of the Minister to give them what they want. A Minister who might lend himself to that belief would, I think, be failing in his duty. I do not think that is a charge that could be levelled against the present occupant of the Ministry. He is a man whose feet are well on the ground, who has a complete disregard for nonsense. Given a chance and reasonable co-operation from the agricultural organisations, I believe he will further improve what we are all glad to note, the upward trend generally in our agriculture.

I should like to begin by complimenting the officers of the Department of Agriculture on the very comprehensive report which they have made available to Deputies. They have covered all aspects of the Department's activities. It is a great advantage to Deputies to be able to follow in a general way the trends disclosed in this report which gives at the same time very useful statistics in regard to the general position of agriculture.

While I congratulate the Department's officers for their very valuable work, I am afraid I have very little to say in favour of the general conduct and policy of the Minister as the policy officer of the Department. Since he came into office as Minister for Agriculture he has shown that he is completely incapable of implementing any practical policy even though he is assisted by such a well-organised Department. I am sorry Deputy Brennan has left. He deplored the fact that the "dud" of the family is usually left to manage the farm and the boys with intelligence are sent into the various professions. That tempts me to ask why the Fianna Fáil Party put the "dud" of the Cabinet into this important Department, surely the most important in the case of this country. It is a Department where men of ability and enterprise are required for the implementation of a delicate policy which affects so many sections of the community in different ways. The price structure of any commodity for which the Department has some responsibility, direct or indirect reacts in other spheres. That is why a man of enterprise and ability is required and that is why we saw such a spectacular advance in agriculture when Deputy Dillon took over in 1948.

At that time, there was nothing but stagnation in agriculture. The livestock population had come down to its lowest level. We had out-of-date systems and out-of-date traditions. There was nothing to show that there was a guiding policy for that large Department which would enable it to implement the various schemes which affect our economy so much. In 1948 Deputy Dillon took over the Department at a time when we could almost have been looking for a pig to bring to the Zoo as a specimen of the old Irish pig. Housewives were on a ration of something like a half pound of rashers a week even though we had no war in this country. The war did not affect our internal management of the country. You had at that time a Department and a Government in control of agriculture, with no progressive policy, giving no lead in the expansion of agriculture.

Deputy Sweetman was well justified in paying tribute to the general improvement brought about by Deputy Dillon from 1948 on, because if we examine this report we can very clearly remember, as we study the various schemes, the active part taken by Deputy Dillon in getting many of these schemes under way. Many others that were already there have been altered, expanded and modernised in order to meet present requirements.

During the past two years we have seen a falling back in agricultural policy to the state of stagnation which Deputy Dillon found. The present Minister for Agriculture is making no attempt to co-operate, or to adopt any progressive plans or schemes put up to him by various farming organisations. Last year, when the National Farmers' Organisation tried to guide him in regard to the wheat problem they were insulted by the Minister. He paid no attention to their suggestions. The farmers know that Deputy Dillon's policy has brought agriculture to its present position.

Unfortunately the wheat and milk issues have been mishandled in the past year. They were used as political implements by Fianna Fáil in the past and the farmers suffered as a result. Take the position in relation to wheat this year. We had an announcement from the Minister that the arrangements made in relation to wheat prices and marketing of wheat last year would stand again this year. The Minister and the Government remember quite well the vigorous opposition to that arrangement last year. It was opposed because the Minister was handing over his responsibility for the policy of wheat production to what was called a Grain Marketing Board. The Minister was not prepared to follow up the promises made by himself and members of his Party throughout the country in regard to wheat prices when the maximum price was 78/6d. under Deputy Dillon in 1957. The wheat growers at that time were led to believe that if the Fianna Fáil Party secured office they would be given 82/6d. per barrel. Instead of that, their majority was used in this House to take away the responsibility from the Minister and hand it over to a board which resulted in a very drastic reduction in the price of wheat.

Last year the Government were given the chance to offer all kinds of excuses for the collapse of the wheat situation. Owing to the adverse weather conditions heavy losses were suffered by the farmers at that time. They particularly resented the arrangement whereby 5/9d. per barrel was deducted from the price paid for their wheat on the understanding that, if the quantity of millable wheat exceeded 300,000 tons, the levy would be used to level out the price. However, as we remember, the quantity of millable wheat never reached 300,000 tons but the levy was taken from all and sundry for a purpose which was not stated when the Bill was brought in here in order to hand over this matter to the board.

On this issue I put it to the Government that wheat growers will find it very difficult this year, or in any year, to sell their wheat under the new arrangement. Suppose the weather had been good last year and that there had been an excellent crop of millable wheat, it would have been very difficult for them to sell that wheat. They would have been travelling around from one miller to another with samples of wheat trying to get it accepted, because the new arrangement has left the millers in a position where they cannot be sure of getting a profit from the handling of Irish wheat. When there was a system of guaranteed prices for wheat, the millers and the handlers of millable wheat were in a position to make out their costs and anticipate whatever profits they would make from the purchase of wheat. They cannot now calculate their costs or expect to get a profit from wheat under the new price structure and the result is that it would be difficult for wheat growers to find millers or agents prepared to purchase wheat under the existing price scale.

The guaranteed price for wheat has been taken away from the farmers and instead they are left with a wheat scale but there is no way of enforcing the payment of the prices shown on that scale. Under the previous system farmers, if they had wheat of a certain quality, were able to insist on their rights and were bound to get the price guaranteed for that particular quality wheat. Of course, we know that the farmers were able to see the dangers that lay ahead in relation to the marketing of wheat. The result is that the acreage of wheat has fallen considerably and, with the heavy fall in acreage this year, at least the difficulty of marketing will be relieved to that extent.

It is a big change of front for the Fianna Fáil Party, which previously carried on a policy which resulted in large surpluses of wheat on our home requirements, to implement now a policy mainly designed to discourage the growing of wheat. They are bringing in that policy on the basis, first of all, that farmers will not be required to produce more than 300,000 tons, and secondly, that they will have difficulty in selling even that quantity of wheat for home requirements. It was necessary last year to import large quantities of millable wheat. Under the present conditions the millers would prefer to handle the millable wheat because they are able to assess their costs on paper and able to see what profit margin is available to them in return for their services in the handling of that wheat. The result is that we can expect, in the future, a repetition of the situation which we had in 1948, when the then outgoing Government purchased Argentine wheat at £50 a ton and left the incoming Government saddled with a very heavy financial burden.

It was quite unnecessary at that time to purchase that large quantity of Argentine wheat at an exorbitant price. One would think it was done deliberately because events showed it was quite unnecessary and was an unjustified charge on the Exchequer. As I say, we have seen now that the Minister for Agriculture is not acting as an instrument through which policy can be implemented but as a man who is not prepared to take responsibility for anything. He hands it over to boards and commissions. If we examine the record of the past few years we will see that nothing practicable has been done by the Minister himself. Any lead that has been given has come through the technical men in his Department. The public look to the Minister of any Department at least to state the general policy of his Government.

This time last year, for instance, we had the Minister for Agriculture exporting sound wheat at a sacrifice price to Great Britain. It is hard to believe that a sensible man, holding such an important office, could dream of acting in such a manner. However, we paid very dearly for it in the months that followed. The excuse he offered was that there was a surplus of wheat and that it was necessary to export it in anticipation of the 1958 harvest. We know quite well that wheat can retain its quality for more than one season. We know that in the larger countries, particularly Canada and America, vast quantities of surplus wheat are carried over from one year to another and this relatively small quantity—although it was a large quantity for this country— could easily have been held over and made available following the bad weather which left us with less than our requirements of millable wheat.

Even at this stage, I ask the Minister to change his attitude and policy in relation to wheat prices. It would be more satisfactory to the wheat growers and to the millers if a specified guaranteed price for any particular quality of wheat were made available instead of a price scale which is not a guarantee and which gives no assurance to the growers that they will be able to sell even the best millable wheat that could come from any Irish harvest.

A couple of million pounds was stopped from the farmers in the form of the 5/9d. wheat levy. No attempt was made to refund that until some months ago, and I believe it is not all refunded yet. If that is so, I should like a statement from the Minister indicating the reason for the delay. There does not seem to be any reasonable excuse for holding it back any longer.

As a result of the campaign carried on by Fianna Fáil at various by-elections in the rural areas—particularly in Carlow-Kilkenny where wheat-growing is an important part of the economy—the farming community were led to believe that Fianna Fáil had a uniform attitude in regard to wheat-growing. The result was that about £1,000,000 was paid early last year for combine harvesters imported here. That has now proved to be a very risky investment. Those machines were imported at relatively high prices and many of them were the subject of hire purchase arrangements. The farmers hoped to pay these instalments out of the returns from wheat, and they went on the basis of a guaranteed price. Fianna Fáil had offered up to 82/6d. per barrel with a guarantee. Now there is no 82/6d. and no guarantee. It will be difficult for many of those people, who purchased harvesters each costing an average of £1,000, to pay for these machines, particularly when the sale of wheat at uniform prices in the coming harvest is very doubtful.

In addition to the combine harvesters, various other harvesting equipment was imported to the amount of £500,000. There, again, with the guaranteed wheat price gone, it will be very difficult for these people to repay the cost of these machines within a reasonable time. I am asking the Minister even at this stage to change his attitude towards wheat growing and particularly in relation to the price arrangements for wheat in view of the difficulties in which many wheat growers find themselves because they saddled themselves with expensive machinery now almost a dead loss.

That was the wheat story over the past 12 months, and we have also the milk price reduction and the trouble that has arisen between the dairy farmers and the Minister. Recently we noticed a protest march in which 14,000 farmers from various areas assembled in the city of Limerick and carried banners protesting against the deliberate action of the Government in taking from them, in the form of levy, approximately £2,000,000. We had the present Minister and his colleagues going among the dairy farmers and agitating to have the Milk Costings Report made available, pretending that the delay in the production of the Report was the fault of Deputy Dillon and that the report would be favourable to the farmers.

When Fianna Fáil set up the Milk Costings Commission did they know in fact that it would not be favourable to the dairy farmers? Did they deliberately set up the commission to transfer once more responsibility from the Minister for Agriculture to a commission or some such body so that the dairy farmers would not blame the Minister or the Fianna Fáil Party but instead would blame the persons who did the costings? That commission was in existence for several years. It cost something like £50,000 to have that report prepared and to carry out all the investigations necessary to have a report on all aspects of the economy available.

We must now ask ourselves whether in fact all that delay and expense were justified, when most of the farmers themselves have a good idea, in their own simple way, of the milk costings on their own farms. If it was justified, is the Minister not now prepared to implement the recommendations contained in that report? The dairying industry is the most important industry here because it gives us the foundation stock, the calves which eventually grow into stores and are exported on the hoof or as carcase beef. That industry is even more important than wheat.

Again we have seen the dairy farmers insulted by the Minister for Agriculture. He is not prepared to heed the case they have made. He has not attempted to consider the facts they have put to him, which cannot be denied. Instead, he is prepared to sit smugly in his Ministerial seat and do nothing. He blames everybody but himself for not implementing an enterprising and practical policy to give some kind of leadership to the farmers in the creamery areas. As I said the Minister has shown no intelligence in relation to any problem confronting the agricultural community. That is the difference between the Minister and Deputy Dillon, whose enterprise and practical approach to the various problems showed the farmers that they had a leader—and they were prepared to follow him. It is unfortunate that the Fianna Fáil Party made wheat and milk very live issues in order to mislead the farmers and brought about a change of Government by promises which they well knew could not be implemented.

To put the progress in the field of agriculture to the test, let us consider what the position in the rural areas and on the land is at the moment. It is a fact that there are 10,000 fewer farm labourers on the land today than there were two years ago. They have run away from the land. There are also fewer farmers on the land because many of the small farmers have locked their doors and gone to work in factories in English towns.

I read in a newspaper some time ago that in one small parish alone, there were 19 farm dwellings whose doors were locked and whose occupants had all gone away. That is an example of the stagnation which has set in in our agricultural economy and that is the reason I should like to see, as Minister for Agriculture, an enterprising man who is prepared to face the problems, and prepared even to make a mistake, but who will do something, instead of sitting there, mute of malice, doing nothing, and complaining if any organised body of farmers stands up as a group to protest against his attitude in relation to their problems.

The Government decided to jack up the price of creamery butter to the Irish consumers, and while they were jacking up the price to Irish citizens, they were reducing it to an all-time low level for the purpose of marketing it in Great Britain. In fact, they were exporting Irish creamery butter at prices lower than the prices of cart grease. They continued to do that until farmers in the various dairying areas were forced to some extent to change their economy to the feeding of calves instead of the production of milk for creamery butter.

When Deputy Dillon took office, the Irish consumers were getting a few ounces of butter per week and, as a result of a trade agreement he made with Great Britain, when the price of calves was increased from 10/- or £1 each to £10 each, we had a dramatic change in the creamery areas. Vast quantities of milk were brought into the co-operative creameries and, of course, the cattle population increased very rapidly. As a result of that trade agreement, we had a new attitude in relation to the livestock industry. The policy of exterminating the cattle population was immediately abandoned. The owners of calves realised the value and importance of looking after the health of their calves and bringing them to maturity. In 1947, for instance, the cash value of livestock exports was £30,000,000, or even less, and after Deputy Dillon took office it was brought up to nearly £100,000,000. If we did not have that money coming into the country at the moment for our livestock exports, it would be very difficult to balance our trade figures.

Those are the points which show the difference in attitude between the Minister and Deputy Dillon. It was quite wrong for Deputy Brennan to take Deputy Sweetman to task when he mentioned that, in fact, most of the progressive sections of our agricultural policy were implemented and expanded during Deputy Dillon's period of office. During the past ten years, it has proved very lucky for us that we had the new trade agreement of 1948. In addition, subsequent trade agreements were also implemented by Deputy Dillon in relation to other aspects of our agricultural economy. I should mention, at this stage, the very valuable export guarantee price which he arranged in respect of pig exports. I mentioned earlier that the pig population too was down to an all-time low level, when the housewives could get only 1 lb. of rashers, if they were good customers of their grocers, until we had a large surplus to export. When we had that large surplus, the problem of price arose. I congratulate Deputy Dillon on his foresight in getting that price guarantee arrangement with Great Britain because the dramatic increase in the pig population in those years might have caused heavy losses to the pig producers.

Experience has shown that pigs and poultry react more quickly than most of the other aspects of our economy. The prices of pigs and poultry can fluctuate very rapidly from one year to another according to the economy, and producers are inclined to go out of the production of poultry or pigs, if the price is not economic, and they cannot make them pay. Similarly, when they do pay, the producers produce them very rapidly again. That is the reason for saying that the arrangement regarding the export price for pigs was most important to the pig producers. They are still benefiting by it and will continue to do so.

I have had reason on previous occasions to criticise the Minister for his lack of interest in the T.B. eradication scheme, particularly when it is so important to this country. If he had any proper appreciation or idea of the position, he would have realised that he should take an active interest in this matter when he became Minister. Instead, he made no practical effort to extend the scheme until he was forced to do so by protests from various parts of the country regarding the danger of losing the British market, if we did not adopt this scheme quickly, or that our market in Great Britain would be affected. In fact, I think, Deputy Brown from Wexford supported some kind of resolution complaining that the Minister was showing no interest in this very important matter. However, the Minister has now changed his attitude in this respect and I am glad to learn from this very useful document that seven counties are nearly cleared and 19 others are in process of being cleared. Remembering the progress made in Great Britain in relation to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, we can expect that even now, no matter how quickly we proceed, we will have difficulty.

In relation to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, we need of course the co-operation of the veterinary surgeons. Unfortunately, the Minister is not satisfied to be fighting with the wheat growers, the milk producers and those who are operating the eradication scheme; he now feels himself compelled to engage in a dispute with the veterinary surgeons. The veterinary surgeons are making a very reasonable case and the Minister is making no attempt whatsoever to meet it. This dispute is harmful to the country generally. If the Minister were prepared to face this issue with some measure of goodwill in an effort to make better arrangements with the veterinary surgeons generally, that would be to the advantage of the country as a whole. Even at this late hour, I appeal to him to come down off his high horse and try to come to some arrangement with the veterinary surgeons. It is an odd thing about the Fianna Fáil Party that they must always be engaged in battles with some section of the community.

According to the Deputy. Tell us all about the veterinary surgeons now. Would it be the veterinary surgeons who are rowing with the Minister and not the Minister with the veterinary surgeons?

The Deputy should consult the Minister on that. I am merely commenting on the position.

Tell us all about it. I shall take the Deputy's word for it. It is very interesting.

The Fianna Fáil Party always seem to be engaged in battles with various sections of the community. They fought a vigorous battle against the farmers in the 'thirties; they fought the Economic War. Now they are engaged in a battle with the veterinary surgeons. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Health, is engaged in a battle with the doctors. It seems to be inherent in the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party that they must always be agitating and always fighting one section or another of the community.

In the interests of the country.

Does the Deputy think it is in the interests of the country to leave the Department of Agriculture without a sufficient number of veterinary surgeons to look after the most important industry we have? Does the Deputy approve of that?

He does not because he wants his own cattle tested. The issue is one of salary and pay.

The Deputy should consult his own Minister. It is very enlightening to hear from the Deputy that he is suffering also because of the carry-on between the Minister and the veterinary surgeons. Tipperary is a very important county, so far as the raising of livestock is concerned. It is one in which there should be a proper veterinary service from the point of view of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. I am glad the Deputy has mentioned that he is affected in his own constituency by the row now in progress between the Minister and the veterinary surgeons. It is a tragedy for the country that this row should blow up, having regard to the value of the livestock industry to the country.

I have noticed a very brief mention in this report of the arrangement with regard to the export of horse flesh. We remember how the Fianna Fáil Party once more took up the cudgels against Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture and sided with a group of people who were agitating for the prevention of the export of horses on the hoof. That agitation resulted in the issue of a licence for the slaughter of horses, the purpose being to prevent alleged cruelty to horses in process of export on the hoof. Since that licence was granted, no attempt of any kind appears to have been made to slaughter horses and export horse flesh. One wonders if there was any real basis at all for the agitation that was carried on? Horses are being exported on the hoof today. There is no agitation now to prevent the export of horses on the hoof and to ensure that there are no cruelties to horses. There have been no changes in the transport arrangements as between today and the time at which this agitation took place. There, again, we have to impute blame to Fianna Fáil for taking up the cudgels and for trying to win the sympathy of certain idealists in order to upset general policy.

Remembering the mess made of wheat growing last year in relation to prices, I should like to draw attention to the fact that a very large acreage of barley is being grown this year. I think the Minister should make arrangements now for the disposal of that large acreage. Would he be prepared to guarantee a minimum price of 37/- per barrel? It is important that he should. The barley growers will certainly be faced with a problem next harvest as a result of the increased acreage sown.

One thing which has affected farmers considerably is the fact that they have been deprived of the benefits of Section B. of the Land Project. There is no longer the option open to them of having their land drained and improved under one or other section. There is now only one section in operation. Some years back, the land drainage machinery was disposed of by a previous Minister for Agriculture, at sacrifice prices. That was the machinery originally earmarked to carry out a certain section of the Land Project, the section the Minister has decided now to keep in operation. Various excuses were given for the sale of that machinery, but, whatever excuses were made, it cannot be gainsaid that an extra 1,000,000 acres were brought into production as a result of land reclamation. Those 1,000,000 acres are a valuable asset to-day, despite the criticism of the Fianna Fáil Party and their pretence that the money was not well spent. If we had not operated the two sections at that time, we should not to-day be able to boast of having an extra 1,000,000 acres in production.

As far as agriculture generally is concerned, the country is going from bad to worse. It is time the farmers were given some kind of enterprising leadership by a Minister with a practical approach. The previous speaker tried to tell us that there was a good deal of prosperity on farms to-day. That is offset, of course, by higher rates, higher costs of production and higher everything else.

I conclude by saying that the Minister has nothing to boast about there to-day. If anything, there has been a disimprovement so far as policy in relation to agriculture is concerned. The report which we have had from the Department is a very practical one, but there is no sign there that the Minister himself has been doing any useful work for the farmers, whether wheat-growers, milk-producers, farmers engaged in mixed type farming, or livestock exporters. We do not appear to have any kind of activity, as far as the Minister is concerned.

I am inclined to take issue with Deputy Rooney. He has been dealing with one of the Minister's cardinal sins in withdrawing Section B of the Land Project. I was hoping that the Deputy would give us at least some minimum statistics in connection with that matter which would go to show that the Minister's action was unjust and wrong in the circumstances.

Section B of the Land Project operated to only a very limited extent in the southern countries, particularly in the constituency which I represent. However, I have gone to some trouble to ascertain something about the operation of that scheme. I am quite satisfied, from the information I have got, that if the Minister was ever justified in ending any scheme, he was completely justified in ending that scheme of grants. The rehabilitation of land is a matter about which people talk a great deal in general but never got down to details. First of all, we have to decide as to the amount of money, especially public money, that should be spent in the rehabilitation of land. Undoubtedly, if a land owner decides to rehabilitate his holding, he is quite entitled to spend any amount of his own money he sees fit to spend, but, when it comes down to the expenditure of public money on the rehabilitation of land, I think we have been a little too liberal in this matter.

A great deal of money has been wasted in the past in the attempted rehabilitation of some land. In many instances, we have gone to any extent to spend money on land that would never be good land, no matter how it was rehabilitated. That is waste of money and under Section B of the scheme quite a lot of that work went on. The land owner who deals with the rehabilitation of his land under Section A is at least inclined to select the portions of his land that appear to be reasonably suitable for rehabilitation and which, when rehabilitated, will be capable of being maintained for a number of years in reasonable condition.

In the matter of Section B, however, the sky seemed to be the limit and, when the withdrawal of this scheme was threatened some time ago, I found that the major part of the opposition that was forthcoming to the withdrawal of the scheme was from the contractors who were operating the scheme for the Department and also from those people who were directly employed by the Department in operating the equipment used to carry out the scheme.

It is unfortunate that contractors who had gone to a great deal of expense to undertake work in connection with Section B should have found themselves, after some months, with little prospect of having the same type of work of their machinery as they had heretofore. They made the case, it seemed to me with some exaggeration, that they would go out of business overnight and that one of the reasons why the scheme should be continued was that they were more or less encouraged by the then Minister to purchase a wide range of equipment to carry out the work that would arise under Section B. They went so far as to say that the Minister at the time gave them an assurance that there would be several years' work ahead in connection with this matter, that his estimate was that it would take anything from ten to 15 years. It is for the person who was Minister at the time to deal with the matter of what assurances, if any, were given, not for me, but I do think that no Minister would be prepared to give a blank cheque to anybody or organisation in a matter of that kind.

The then Minister was quite entitled, acting as Minister in the then Government, to introduce Section B. I am quite satisfied that he did so for an honest motive, that it appeared to him a practical way of handling a certain type of rehabilitation work. He took that step, I am quite satisfied, in good faith, believing that the results would be worth the expenditure involved. Experience has proved otherwise. I understand, on fairly good authority, that in some cases where the estimated cost per acre was £70, under Section B, the final cost went as far as £180 or £190.

This matter should be fully explained here by the Minister, when he is concluding this debate. There is a good deal of propaganda——

Hear, hear! Propaganda is the word. Spell it with a capital "P" and put "F.F." after it.

Yes—P.R. á la F.F.— propaganda.

I am satisfied that the Minister had good reason to withdraw the scheme.

P.R.—F.F., that is, Fianna Fáil Propaganda; "Proof" with the two O's left out.

I am quite satisfied that the Minister did not withdraw the scheme except for very good reasons. He had the advantage of experience which Deputy Dillon did not have when he introduced it. The Deputy had not the information available now on the working of the scheme. He should get it. I have no doubt he will accept the wisdom of our Minister's decision.

The rehabilitation of land regardless of cost has to stop. The taxpayer is paying his contribution to this activity and, like all others, it must be put on a sound working basis. If we can rehabilitate sufficient areas of land under Section A, and do a better job under Section A, why should we have Section B to coax people to spend colossal sums of money to do work which could be done, for half the cost, under Section A? First of all, we have the advantage of working Section A directly through the landowners themselves. The Department does not come into this aspect at all. Nearly all Deputies advocate private enterprise, particularly in agricultural operations. It is understandable, of course, when the Land Rehabilitation Scheme was started, that Deputy Dillon should endeavour to give it a push, for obvious reasons, and that he should have employed an addition to Section A.

I have not the slightest doubt that, if that alternative had worked well and given a return at a reasonable cost, the Minister who succeeded Deputy Dillon would not have interfered with it. After all, the general policy of all Governments here has been to carry on, as far as possible, where the last Government left off and keep that continuity which is so essential to progress in any country. The attitude of the Opposition, in attacking a Minister who finds it necessary to make a change, is entirely wrong. However, I am sure the Minister can make a better case than I, as to why he made the change and he will have an easy job in proving that the change he made was absolutely necessary.

Deputy Rooney dealt at some length with the dissatisfaction which the milk producers have about the price of milk prevailing now. He indicated, of course, that the Minister was having "a row" with the dairy farmers and also "a row" with the veterinary profession. Evidently, when any interests do not see eye to eye with the Minister he must be described as having "a row" with them. It is not hard to understand whether the Minister has a row with the dairy farmers or the dairy farmers have a row with the Minister. I think neither statement would be correct.

Deputy Rooney referred to a demonstration of dairy farmers in a Southern centre, in Limerick, I think. That is the second or third time that such a demonstration has taken place. We had a demonstration here in Dublin when Deputy Dillon was Minister. I think it happened in February or March, 1956. Farmers came then from all over the milk producing areas to demonstrate here in their thousands. I think that demonstration was on the grounds that Deputy Dillon was not disposed to increase the price of milk.

Oh, no; they were looking for the Milk Costings Report. They have got it now.

Anyhow, they were looking in practice for an increase in milk prices.

There was no good in looking for it.

They have got it now. They wanted a "bob" a gallon. They have got the report.

If Deputy Dillon had difficulties with the same problem Deputy Rooney should also have to describe it as "a row" when he talked of a row with the dairy farmers. Deputies who represent milk producing areas are naturally in sympathy with the demands the dairy farmers have been putting forward. I have entire sympathy with those demands. I am not speaking here to the gallery.

Oh, perish the thought!

Deputy Dillon and myself are much alike in that direction—we speak out our minds.

I hope the Deputy is going on the deputation this afternoon and that he will speak out his mind.

I am going to speak out my mind on the deputation, but I assert that I am a member of a democratic Party, no matter what the Deputy may think of it. I am prepared to make my case within the Party and outside the Party, and after that I am prepared to be an ordinary disciplined member, without apology to anyone.

Good man.

Deputy Collins says "Good man." A lion abroad, but a lamb at home.

I think the organisation which is pressing the demands of the milk producers is a reasonable organisation. I have always found they have based their case on fairly good, sound facts. One thing I like about them is that they have kept clear of any political affiliations. As long as they keep on that road, they are on sure ground and can render a very signal service to the members of their organisation. Every Government in power appreciates that dairying is an important industry. There are times when I am prepared to go so far as to say that there was at least some merit in the suggestion Deputy Dillon made some years ago, when he offered a certain price per gallon over a fixed period. I think this price offered was not sufficient at the time but the general principle, as it then appeared, was worthy of some consideration, in my opinion.

Deputy Ó Briain will have a fit if the Deputy goes on like that.

I make that statement. The Government that Deputy Dillon then represented did not give an increase to the milk producers at the time which the dairy farmers felt was reasonable and was given later on by Fianna Fáil to an extent that enabled them to carry on in milk production. With the increased costings and other relevant factors which have applied since then, milk producers have been agitating for an increase in the price. It is rather unfortunate that the milk costings investigation was not able to throw some light on this matter. The investigation was carried on over a protracted period and should have given some results, some basis of common agreement, so that the Minister would have at least something to go on.

Dairy farming is one of the few branches of industry which still does not seem to have an accepted basis of costing. The Milk Costings Report should have given us this and I have often wondered if it was wise that that report should be entirely scrapped. I never saw it in its entirety, but I understand it contained a certain amount of reliable information. After all, there was considerable research and investigation carried out in the matter of costings under some heads and the Report should have given a fairly reliable result.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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