I presume that this new enactment is like all previous enactments of a somewhat similar character and is meant to provide increased employment in the State. Over the past six years, we had a series of Acts with that intent, beginning with the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952, down to the Bill which we are considering to-day. I think it might be an opportune time, if I am in order in doing so, to consider the provisions in retrospect of some of these enactments and the success they achieved, and see if the present measure is likely to achieve a greater degree of success, particularly in those parts of the country outside the areas at present scheduled as undeveloped.
Some of the previous speakers made a comparison between the benefits contained in the Bill and the benefits contained in the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952, and the later Industrial Grants Act, 1956. It was suggested that, due to the introduction of this measure, the undeveloped areas will suffer to some extent at least. Under the 1952 Undeveloped Areas Act, which roughly covered the old congested districts, mainly the province of Connacht, the county of Kerry and parts of West Cork, very substantial concessions were made, provided certain conditions were implemented to the satisfaction of Foras Tionscal and provided the Board was satisfied that the industry to be established would maintain employment in such areas. Among the benefits for a person starting up, whether an Irish national or an outside man coming in, the Board were prepared on their behalf to acquire land either outright or assist them by giving them grants to acquire land themselves, to provide sites for premises, to make grants up to 50 per cent. of the cost of machinery and equipment, to make grants for the training of workers during a specified period and to make grants for the construction or repair of roads and bridges and grants for houses, buildings, dwellings and canteens. It is possible for the local authorities themselves to remit up to two-thirds of the rates on the premises concerned. The Minister could order the Electricity Supply Board to supply current, power and light at the lowest rates operating in the State.
These were very substantial concessions, indeed, and, as the Minister stated, either in his introductory statement or in reply to a question, a sum of between £4 million and £5 million has so far been expended under the provisions of the Undeveloped Areas Act and somewhere between 4,000 and 5,000 people have been put into new industrial employment.
In 1957, the Act was amended to some small degree, mainly technically. Then we passed on to the next piece of legislation which is intended to offset to some degree at least the unenviable position under which some of the parts of the country outside the undeveloped areas were labouring, in particular counties and areas contiguous to the undeveloped areas but which could not hope to encourage development because of the fact that they were so close to the areas where these very substantial benefits were available.
The Industrial Grants Act, 1956, was introduced. That made available substantial sums of money for the erection of industrial buildings. One of the criticisms I have levelled against that Act in the past, when asking the Minister's predecessor to consider its amendment, was that no provision was made in it to assist the purchase and installation of machinery and equipment. Otherwise there was a good deal to be said in recommendation of the Act. It was a simple one which set out to provide certain aids to industrialists intending to establish industries outside the undeveloped areas. It was also a short Act which was easily worked and of course it was worked under the scheme of the Industrial Development Authority which has had quite a considerable amount of experience in seeking new industries for the country and in knowing what the industrial requirements of the various areas were.
The actual working of that Act, particularly when it came to seeking grants, was extremely cumbersome to my certain knowledge. The fact that one had to go through a tedious procedure with An Foras Tionscal before receiving a grant, or even being approved for a grant, to my mind negatived the possible benefits of that Act to quite a considerable extent.
Later then, we had the Taoiseach introducing the Industrial Development (Encouragement of External Investment) Act, 1958, a measure which at the time was subjected to a good deal of criticism in this House, and not without reason. That Act sought to amend the Control of Manufactures Acts of 1932 and 1934. In my view then, and now, the main effect of that amending legislation was to confuse rather than to clarify the purpose of those two previous Acts. The very name and the length of that piece of legislation was indicative that it was anything but a clear cut and helpful piece of legislation, as I am sure the Minister's predecessor wished it to be.
That Act introduced us to such terms as "accepted commodities", "excluded companies", "certificates of exemption" and "unqualified companies". It continued the old system whereby new manufacture licences could be issued. A suggestion made to the Minister at that time, and not accepted by him, was that that amending Act could have been simplified merely by extending the provisions for the issuance of new manufacture licences and generally sweeping away all the difficulties in the way of outside capitalists, or outside financial interests, coming in here with technical knowledge to establish industries, particularly for export. I took the view that if you wanted to encourage outside capital to come in here you would want to take a radical and courageous step, clear away all the deadwood and give them every encouragement provided the industries were bona fide industries and were to engage in the export trade.
The main provisions of the present Bill are, first of all, that it repeals the Industrial Grants Act, 1956, and repeals small sections in the 1932 and 1934 Undeveloped Areas Acts. The wording in Section 2 of the Act to my mind is so ambiguous and leaves so many loopholes for either acceptance or evasion by the Board—I assume the Board to be An Foras Tionscal, although it is not mentioned in the introductory paragraphs—that in its present form I do not think the Act can carry out the benefits which the Minister, I assume, intends for it. I quote from Section 2, subsection (1):
"Whenever the Board—
(a) are of opinion that there are sound reasons why an industrial undertaking cannot be established or developed in the undeveloped areas and that the undertaking is, having regard to its size, character or the probable extent to which its products are likely to be exported, or exceptional national importance, and".
I mentioned already the difficulties in the way of securing grants through the present legislation, the Industrial Grants Act, and the Undeveloped Areas Act, but if the proposed legislation goes through with that paragraph, it would be open to so many interpretations either against the applicants concerned, or possibly too much in their favour, that it would largely make the whole Act inoperative. In considering any legislation surely we have now reached the stage when, with the exception of Dublin we should regard the rest of the country as undeveloped and underdeveloped. In presenting any new legislation to the House the Minister might have considered the bold step of introducing either an amending Bill or else a completely new Bill, putting on the same plane every area in the country outside, say, the capital, Dublin, and probably an area of 20 to 25 miles around it.
When our Ministers and representatives go abroad they are at pains to advertise the fact that we are an undeveloped, an underdeveloped and a developing country. If that is the case surely it is logical to apply to this country and to all the country outside of Dublin—which has advantages which no other centre unfortunately possesses—the same measures to assist in industrial development. It does not matter very much in the long run, whether a man with a wife and family is employed in say, West Cork, West Limerick, West Kerry, or the Midlands, so long as he is retained in this country and able to settle down here and bring up his family. As it would be to the benefit of the country as a whole Limerick City, Cork City, and Waterford City, or centres in the Midlands, could be developed far beyond their present capacity. That calls for some national effort as they are all fairly big centres of population. The way to attack this problem is to attack it on a regional basis and to see these centres built up.
If I put forward the case of Limerick, I do so because it is a good example of the large type of city that I should like to see developed. It is sufficiently largely populated to be able to provide the skilled labour force that most industrialists look for. It is also big enough to provide the amenities which the workers now require and which they regard as necessary to the way of life which is now regarded as their right and their due. If this Bill had been approached with that viewpoint, I think the Minister would be presenting us with a different type of legislation. I do welcome the Bill in this regard, that it is certainly helping to offset, to a degree, the unfair position of areas, particularly those immediately outside the undeveloped areas.
Of course, the provisions included in the Bill are not as attractive. I think that is very obvious to anyone who has read the older Acts, and that is why I am pressing the case to have all these different pieces of legislation put on the same basis, codified, or made into one Bill or one Act encouraging industrial development throughout the State. I think the matter should be approached from that point of view rather than have this sort of piecemeal legislation which, for some few years, will benefit one part of the country at the cost of other parts of the country.
I do not think it should be forgotten that any grants given have to be provided out of taxation. They have to come out of the taxpayers' pockets, whether through a tax on tobacco, beer, or income. Everybody has to pay and it is difficult enough for the ordinary trader, businessman, worker and professional man nowadays to have to pay high taxes, without at the same time helping, with those taxes, to direct employment away from his own area.
The Minister mentioned in his introductory speech that this piece of legislation was intended to assist in the implementation of the Government's Programme for Economic Expansion. I have re-read the White Paper, the white booklet, and nowhere in that can I find any indication that the Government proposed to introduce this piece of legislation to assist in industrial development, and nowhere can I find, in Appendix 1 or 2, any reference that would suggest that this piece of legislation is in any way associated with the five year programme for economic expansion. The only reference to industry in Appendix 1 or 2 of this document is—I quote from Appendix 1 —"Industrial Development (General); Expansion of credit through the Industrial Credit Company," and also reference to research, efficiency, productivity, technical training, etc. There is no indication in that, that I can see, that this piece of legislation is intended to boost or help industrial employment in any way whatsoever, so I do not think it is quite correct to say it is a further step in the implementation of the Government's programme for industrial expansion.
I do not want to quote at length from this programme. A number of Deputies have already quoted from it and to quote extensively would only hold up the debate considerably. However, it is interesting to read in it the references to the development of private enterprise and, if these references are genuine, I do suggest that, in attacking the problem of industrial development, more help might be given to existing industries and existing businesses. The Minister's predecessor has been at pains to reiterate on a number of occasions that any assistance, or any grants in the form of financial assistance available to outside interests, are also available to Irish promoters of industries. That is only true in part.
If an existing Irish firm or business wants to extend its business, it cannot get any of the benefits—it cannot get a grant to do so—but the same business house, the same trader, through his own taxation, corporate taxation, and the taxation of his employees, is providing the money whereby grants are made available in other areas. I feel that any old existing industry that is prepared to extend and give additional employment, whether it is for export or for home production, should be encouraged to do so in the same way as outside interests and new interests are getting assistance to establish new industries. It seems to me to be immaterial whether an industry is a new one or an old one. The basic consideration should be: is it going to give additional employment and is it going to benefit the country as a whole?
One matter referred to by Deputy Cosgrave was the multiplicity of organisations which we now have dealing with industrial development, in one fashion or another, and I should like to support the views he expressed on that. There should be some simplification or some reorganisation of these bodies. At the moment we have An Foras Tionscal, and the Industrial Development Authority which is now largely being divested of most of its powers and is merely a promoting organisation. That is a pity. I think the Industrial Development Authority was a useful body. As I said a few minutes ago, it had considerable experience over the years in matters of grants and, rather than divest it of its powers, particularly in regard to the financial side of helping industry, I should be rather more inclined to give it more powers and to make financial capital available to it, so that, not alone could it assist in the enticing and encouraging of industries to Ireland, but it could also take the first practical step in assisting outside industrialists in setting up their plants here. If that step were taken, the necessity for this new An Foras Tionscal would not arise and it would generally simplify the whole elaborate process by which an applicant has to secure a grant.
Then we have the Industrial Credit Company which is, of course, working on a completely different basis and which, I think, is doing a good job. We have also C.T.T. which, again, is promoting the export of industrial goods and more recently we have the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, which has a specific job in the development of industries at Shannon Airport. Also, if not strictly concerned with industrial development, we have Bord Fáilte and the Irish Tourist Association, and finally, though probably I should have put it first on the list, is the Minister's Department, the Department of Industry and Commerce, which is now to be sub-divided into two Ministries.
In a small country with less than 3,000,000 of a population, we have all these various agencies set up to encourage industrial expansion, and I have the feeling that this whole elaborate machinery could be simplified to a very large extent. I do not mean only the legislation, which I have mentioned already, which I think is over-elaborate, but the agencies for carrying out the legislation could also be reorganised. If that were done, it would save a considerable amount of cost to the country.
There is one point I should like to mention, that is, the tendency up to now, when dealing with applicants for grants or loans for the establishment of industry, to turn a blind eye to anybody who wants to set up a small industry. Like other facets of Irish life, we have now got into the habit of thinking in terms of the large unit.
Unless we can talk in terms of hundreds of thousands of pounds, no really serious consideration is given to the application. In our circumstances, a country of small businessmen and small industries, I think particular attention—in fact, priority—should be given to applicants who are prepared to set up small local industries, especially in rural areas, employing perhaps only five or ten or fifteen people. If more attention were given to that facet of industrial development and less to gigantic industries, some of which I am afraid are of very doubtful advantage buttressed as they are by grants and subsidies, I think in the long run it would lead to more advantageous industrial development throughout the country as a whole.
I shall put down a few amendments on the Committee Stage of the Bill. As I said at the outset I welcome the Bill from the point of view that it does something to redress the present unfavourable balance between areas outside the undeveloped areas and areas inside but, to my mind, it does not tackle the fundamental problem which is that the country as a whole outside Dublin is undeveloped. As somebody else said, I think. legislation of this kind can deal with the problem only to a very limited extent.