Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Oct 1959

Vol. 177 No. 2

Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited Bill, 1959—Second Stage (resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Sir Anthony Esmonde

This is a Bill authorising the Minister for Finance to take shares to the extent of £1,500,000. It also enables him to give free grants to the amount of £500,000. While everybody in this House must welcome anything that will help to maintain Shannon Airport, I am extremely dubious that this Bill is the correct way to approach the matter. It is very evident that Shannon Airport faces considerable difficulties on account of overflying by jets. At the same time it is very evident that Shannon Airport is a necessary adjunct to the civil aviation of the world in relation to transatlantic flights. That has been quite evident in the past few months when it was necessary for planes coming from other areas that had overflown Shannon to return there.

As I heard the statement of the Minister yesterday, the principal purposes of this Bill appear to be to encourage the development of industries in and around Shannon Airport and to endeavour to advertise it as fully as possible throughout the world. I do not think anybody in any part of the world who has ever taken a flight in a plane or is in any way interested in flying has not heard of Shannon Airport. Therefore, the Minister's first suggestion that this Bill is for the purpose of aiding the advertising of this Airport really does not hold water.

I do not see that we require a Bill and all the costs associated with a Bill and all the extra State control that will come with this Bill for the purpose of advertising one of the best-known airports in the world. There is no doubt that were Shannon Airport to go into liquidation, which I know will not happen and would not be permitted to happen by this or any other subsequent Government, it is of such vital importance to the world as a whole that other countries or other air companies would, if necessary, intervene to see that such a state of affairs would not come to pass.

It is true that, with the overflying of the Airport, there will be a considerable hiatus in the employment given to the numerous employees who derive their living in and around the Airport. For that purpose, everyone will agree that it is necessary that any hardship that might be caused should be mitigated in every way. Again, I do not think this is the correct approach. I do not think it is necessary to have a Bill which, as I read it, is designed to provide a sum of £2 million to further and extend the activities of the Airport. If industries are to be set up, as I hope they will be set up, in Shannon Airport, I largely agree with Deputies Cosgrave and Russell that it would probably be more beneficial to our economy as a whole to set them up in adjacent towns such as Limerick and Ennis, where a large number of the employed personnel of the Airport live or, if not, in other residential quarters of the area. If it is necessary to do that, we have already the machinery and the facilities in this State for setting up these industries. We recently passed a Bill in which it was possible by State grants to assist any of these intended projects. Why must we have another Bill? Why must we have duplication of what already exists? We have An Foras Tionscal which I understand is for that purpose.

Any development that is necessary can take place without this Bill. We are getting too much into the system that practically every project, no matter what it may be, must have a Bill, a board and a company that is dependent on, and to a large extent controlled by, the Government. While it is necessary for the State to aid in every way the development of industries here, I do not approve of direct control. This Bill, putting the Minister for Finance into the position of being able to control £1,500,000 worth of shares in a company, is a retrograde step.

The Federal Republic of Germany, which has shown the most startling economic revival in the modern history of Europe having been reduced to ashes during the last war, are by legislation endeavouring to transfer back fully and completely to private enterprise anything that they intervened to support in the time of emergency. That should be our policy and outlook. I am not suggesting that the Government are entirely committed to State control but I do suggest that we are having too many of these Bills, too many boards and too much State interference. Although this Bill will undoubtedly be passed by the majority the Government have at their disposal, it is unnecessary. Shannon Airport can survive with the existing facilities in the State without all the expense of an extra Bill and the extra control by the State that it will imply.

Mr. McQuillan

When this matter was discussed in the House before, the Taoiseach as Minister for Industry and Commerce had responsibility for the problem and I at the time suggested to him that the benefits to be conferred under this measure should be extended to other parts of the country. I do not know whether that proposal of mine has been considered so far by the Minister for Transport and Power but I want to repeat to him that it is desirable that the advantages to be given to what I can describe now as the depressed area of the Shannon be extended to the other depressed areas particularly in the West of Ireland.

The House and the Minister should be quite open and honest about the purpose of this measure. It appears that the Government have accepted the fact that Shannon is about to be completely by-passed as far as air services are concerned, with particular reference to passenger services. The loss of employment resulting from the withdrawal of services by air companies will leave a large number of unemployed in the area and consequently it is desirable that alternative employment be made available for those who are likely to be displaced from their present employment in the near future.

I should like to inquire in regard to the new industries which it is proposed to set up, be they good or bad, whether the people who will be employed there will be people who were formerly employed by the air companies or associated at the Airport as such, or people who are likely to move into this area to secure employment from now on. The aim of setting up this company is to entice foreign industrialists to use the locality concerned as a jumping off ground for the European market. There may and I hope there will be a certain amount of success attaching to the efforts being made in that regard but the efforts are about five years too late; the Government have wakened up when major industries that might have been available are already established in Europe, particularly in Denmark, Holland and Belgium. For the past eight years these European countries have made tremendous efforts to secure in their territory the establishment of industries controlled and run by American industrialists. These industries are in full swing and are prepared to reap the full benefit of the vast markets open to them. While these countries were seeking earnestly in America for the money and skill of the American industrialists, our Government sat back and did nothing whatever.

Mr. Childers

On a point of order. Is this relevant to the Bill? I am not empowered to discuss the development of industry outside the Shannon. The decision to set up the Shannon Free Airport Development Company has already been made by the House and this is to provide the money.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand Deputy McQuillan is discussing the development of Shannon Airport. Anything outside that would be irrelevant.

Mr. McQuillan

I understand that and I fail to see why the Minister is becoming disturbed. Of course, he is on a bad wicket at the moment. The Minister is responsible now for the Shannon area as an industrial centre. He has the responsibility of ensuring that the money of the taxpayer is utilised in a proper manner and not wasted through any panic measures the Government may take to try to remedy a situation that should have been faced four or five years ago.

While no members of this House will oppose measures to continue employment for the people of this area, at the same time it is the duty of those representing rural areas to suggest that priority is being given on the wrong lines of development. This in my opinion is the most desirable form of expansion at the moment. The priority list, as far as money is concerned, should be changed and other lines should receive far more attention than they do at present.

If we take this area as being a likely depressed area in the case of Shannon being by-passed in the near future, we have automatically to take measures, I presume, to hold in employment those who will be displaced, but surely those people, particularly in the West of Ireland, who have been displaced during the past 20 years, also have a deserving case. Surely the huge numbers of people living in congested areas, which can only be discribed as depressed areas, for the last 30 years, have an equal right to have their position improved as the people in the Shannon area have. None of us begrudges the idea of stabilising the position at Shannon but at the same time we are entitled to protest, on behalf of those people who have been living in miserable conditions for years past, that they are still being neglected. I wonder why.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot see how that could be argued on this Bill.

Mr. McQuillan

I think I am entitled to suggest what could be in the Bill as well. It is the only opportunity that we shall have on the Bill. We shall not have it on the Committee Stage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Bill is very specific and deals with the Shannon Airport area. The Deputy is discussing conditions outside that area and it is doubtful if the Minister would have any responsibility in the matter.

Mr. McQuillan

When the question of the Shannon area comes up—the Shannon area in my opinion extends right up to Leitrim——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of responsibility arises and the Minister for Transport and Power would not have responsibility in this matter.

Mr. Moloney

On a point of order, the Shannon Airport is clearly defined in the definition in the Bill. We are all interested in that because we may have to prepare notes on the point dealt with by Deputy McQuillan. The definition states—"‘the airport' means the entire area within the outer margin of the red line marked ABCDEFG on the map annexed to the Customs-Free Airport." I think that clears up the whole thing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is also concerned with the responsibility of the Minister. The Chair holds that Deputy McQuillan is discussing matters outside the Minister's responsibility altogether.

Mr. McQuillan

Yes, sir. May I suggest—I have very little else to say on this matter—that I appreciate the intervention of Deputy Moloney who does not want to see this extended outside a very limited area?

Mr. Moloney

On a point of order, actually Deputy Moloney does want to see this extended outside the area.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is scarcely a point of order.

Mr. Moloney

Well, it is a correction.

Mr. McQuillan

As far as the area is concerned I am entitled to suggest, and so is any other member of the House, that the limits imposed can be enlarged. Any Deputy is entitled to suggest that the scope of the measure be widened to include areas outside the area immediately concerned. I am entitled to suggest on this Reading of the Bill that its terms are too narrow and that when public moneys are involved, and a public company being set up, the Minister and his Department should have raised their sights and included areas further afield than the particular locality mentioned and it could still be called the Shannon project.

One last point. Deputy Esmonde said that he objected to the idea of State interference in a matter like this and that it should be more or less for private enterprise. He pointed out what has been achieved in the case of West Germany. I think it should be clearly understood that the revival in West Germany to which he referred was brought about, to a great extent, by State interference.

Mr. Childers

Nonsense.

Mr. McQuillan

And it is as a result of the efforts of the State and the help of the Government that West Germany is in a position to-day to sell back to private enterprise the shares in State and semi-State companies. That is what took place. The position is that West Germany is a very wealthy country at the moment. Various concerns under Government or semi-Government control are now in process of being released from that control to private enterprise but, in the course of being released, a ceiling is being put on the number of shares that can be held by the people in these companies. It is not being done in the same way as here, of dog eat dog. I suggest that if any progress is to be made here in the future the initial stages will have to be prepared or initiated by the State through various companies. This is one such company. For that reason I welcome it even though to my mind the area could be enlarged and if desirable at a later stage, when progress has been made, that control can be eased, or I should say all the shares concerned could be made available over a very wide field if necessary.

Seeing that I am precluded from developing the points in connection with industrial expansion generally, all I will say is that I feel a measure of this nature, in so far as it is meant to attract industrialists from abroad, particularly from America, is five years too late. Even so, now that it has been produced I hope success will attend the efforts of those charged, even at this stage, with the task of salvaging. The effort should have been made years ago.

Mr. Moloney

I feel that discussions on a measure of this kind should as far as possible be strictly confined to the general limits of the legislation proposed under the Bill. I note that the Bill before us is described as an Act to authorise the Minister for Finance to take up shares in the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited, and I take it that it is a measure to give the new Minister for Transport and Power the necessary authority to provide for what is required. I think that quite a number of Deputies are somewhat at sea, as I am, in that we are not clear as to the area of operation. The Bill indicates that the area in question is marked in red on a map with the letters a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. I think we all have a fairly general idea that the area of operation of the company is Shannon Airport as we know it at the moment.

Those of us who have occasion to go to Shannon note with satisfaction from time to time that a great deal of development is taking place in the area adjacent to the Airport. Some Deputies who are inclined to look further ahead than others seem to think that Government anxiety at the moment is to provide a means of employment to offset any dislocation that may take place among existing staff at Shannon because of the threat to overfly it. While it is understandable that Deputies should refer to that possibility, I think the least said about that at the moment, the better. However, we do know that if overflying of Shannon takes place, that is a development which, generally speaking, is outside the control of the Government here. It is obvious to everybody that anything the Government could do to entice the airlines to use Shannon to the fullest possible extent has been done, is being done, and will be done. But, if the Government have any reason to think that the overflying problem might dislocate the existing trend of employment at Shannon, then the effort being made under this Bill is a very praiseworthy arrangement.

For myself, I hope that preference for employment in any industries that will be set up by the Development Company will be given to any people who might be displaced from their existing employment. I feel that substantial progress is being made by this State-sponsored Board at present. Only yesterday I was at Shannon and I was very glad to see that since my last visit a few months ago, several new factory buildings have been erected, and some more are in course of erection. My business at Shannon was to see a German industrialist off from this country. He had been here on a visit and deliberately came to Shannon yesterday, instead of Dublin, so that he might see the buildings that have recently been erected by the Development Company for leasing to industrialists anxious to come into the area.

This German, whose family have been connected with industrial business in Germany for generations, and who are running a private family concern, told me that the type of factory being erected at Shannon was on the most modern lines. In fact, this man has a project in mind for another part of the country and he came to Shannon to see the type of building the free Airport Authority have erected so that he might copy it. I merely mention that point to indicate to the Minister that the company taking care of the matters entrusted to them in connection with the free airport development have made a very good start.

Most times I am on the other side of the fence from Deputy McQuillan but on this measure I support him to a very great extent. The Scope of this Shannon arrangement should be extended considerably. In recent months, quite a lot of activity has taken place in connection with the purchase of land in areas adjacent to Shannon Airport. A number of farms have been bought up in trust by a firm of solicitors and the people in North Kerry, Clare and West Limerick are particularly anxious to know what is behind this new development. Many guesses have been forthcoming but that is not enough. If the Minister is in a position to make any statement on that matter, I feel he might avail of the opportunity to do so when replying to the points made in this debate.

It is only right and proper that the people in these areas, and the people of the country generally, should be informed, at this stage, of the names and other relevant particulars of the interests engaged in the purchase of these lands, and the purpose for which they are being acquired. The people of the areas where these lands are situated would welcome any industrial development that might ensue as a result of the taking over of the lands by this new body, but when several months have passed by without the identity of the purchasers being revealed, it is about time some statement were made on the matter at Government level. I am glad to have got this opportunity of suggesting to the Minister that he might deal with that point when replying to the debate.

I have little more to say except that I welcome the measure, not alone from the point of principle, but as being a very definite step forward by the Government in an endeavour to help a company which, in my opinion, has set out to do a very useful job at Shannon, and a company that has inspired confidence amongst the industrialists from foreign countries who come to Shannon with a view to setting up some form of industrial activity in that area. I wish the company every success and I am glad that the Minister has introduced this measure to provide financial assistance to it to extend the scope of it activities. I think we can all look forward with a very high degree of confidence to the success of this Company in years to come, and I believe that when its progress is reviewed in four or five years' time, Deputies will have the satisfaction of knowing that it will have contributed in no small measure to the economy of the nation.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

First of all, I want to thank the House for the constructive and friendly way in which they discussed the Second Reading of this Bill, and I am glad that the whole House supports the general character of the measure. Deputy Cosgrave asked some questions about the construction of the company and I should say that up to now the capital already guaranteed under the State Guarantees Act has been £200,000.

The Shannon Free Airport Development Authority was constituted as a limited liability company rather than as a statutory body, such as Bord Fáilte or Córas Tráchtála, Teoranta, because it was expected that it would have to engage directly in business such as the provision of aircraft handling services, the construction and leasing of factory space, the provision and maintenance of an industrial estate, and finally the provision of chartered air services to and from Shannon Airport. Because it might have—and has in some cases—all those functions it was felt better to form a limited liability company.

Deputy Cosgrave also asked for information on the character of the newly-established industries. I think he will agree with me that the capital structure of these companies can be examined in the Companies' Registration office and that, in regard to the amount of capital invested by the companies, it is not usual to give private information of that sort. There is a well established precedent for not doing so. I need hardly say that the bona fides of all the promoters are carefully examined by the Shannon company and, as I indicated on the Second Reading, advice is sought from the Industrial Development Authority in order to ensure that industries are of a desirable character and that they do not compete with similar interests.

I should make it clear in dealing with the development at Shannon that it is not my function to state here whether there should be a reduction in taxation or that other facilities should be granted for new industries in other parts of the country. This company has been established to make the Shannon area unique as an industrial centre, to induce industries for whom it is a benefit to import and export materials by air to come there if at all possible; to induce industries whose distribution is one which is better suited to air transport than to sea or land transport to set up factories.

The objective of the company is to create a new idea in the world of an airport industrial area attuned to the idea of air transport linked with the conception of a great central stopping place for aircraft. It is a new idea as far as I know, there is no other similar project and it is for that reason that special facilities are offered, that special taxation incentives are provided specifically to suit the circumstances of Shannon Airport and of no other area.

Many things could be done at Shannon and all of them must be examined by the executives of the company and through market research and development. For example, Shannon might become a centre for exhibitions and fairs or it might equally be found that it would not be possible to attract sufficient traffic to make that profitable, but it is essential to have a group of people who are specialists and who literally dream Shannon and eat and drink Shannon during the day, people who are real specialists in making the word "Shannon" known all over the world and in inducing millions of people to "drop in" to Shannon. They must create the idea in the minds of everybody who travels from east to west that they should stop at Shannon, that there are advantages there and equally to attract business men to bring industries where the near-by existence of an airport with customs-free facilities is attractive in their particular line of business. That is the answer to Deputy Esmonde who suggested that we did not need to form another company for this purpose. It would be quite impossible to ask An Foras Tionscal to become Shannon specialists: they could not do it; this requires a special Board and executives who know all the answers and who have enquiring minds and the ability to conduct market research and do advertising on a very extensive scale.

The object is to give travellers the impression that if they "drop in" at Shannon they can fish or hunt within 20 minutes or half an hour of the area, or that they can see, in anything from 20 minutes to two hours, the most beautiful scenery on God's earth; that they can see wonderful gardens; they can play golf, see old castles and meet pleasant people. That is one of the objectives—to create that kind of impression. It might be possible to establish all kinds of attractions at Shannon airport and that is a matter of market research and advertising.

I want to make it clear to Deputy Esmonde that we cannot take for granted that everyone knows about Shannon. It is known as an international airport but the object is to make travellers want to land there and that will require advertising on a very considerable scale. If you are going to advertise, you must have market research to find out what kind of advertising is likely to pay, and just how many people will "drop in" at Shannon as a result of spending a certain sum of money and what media to choose. All that is specialist work and I was particularly concerned to make sure that there would be no lack of co-ordination between the Shannon Company, Bord Fáilte and C.I.E. and they have agreed to form a committee to work together so that there will be no overlapping, so that one executive will not be producing a whole series of leaflets with similar information to that produced by the Shannon Company and so that the whole effort can be directed towards increasing the number of travellers who land at Shannon for tourist or other purposes.

As I indicated in speaking on the Bill providing the capital for Aerlinte, a number of market research companies and other authorities in America have estimated that there will be a given growth in traffic across the Atlantic in the course of the next three years and on the basis that 5 per cent. of those who travel by air across the Atlantic visit Ireland, we can envisage an increase in traffic which should make the jet service a profitable one for us eventually, other things being equal. Examining the whole situation of transatlantic traffic, it is obvious that we cannot automatically assume that because the number of air travellers is going to increase Shannon will get 5 per cent. all the time. We must work very hard to establish the idea that it is worth while interrupting a fast jet service from New York to London or Paris to stop at Shannon. We must establish that it is a pleasant thing to do, that there are advantages there, that it will mean a few unforgettable days of pleasant travel if the journey is interrupted. That is one of the supreme purposes underlying the formation of this company.

I am answering a question in the Dáil to-day in regard to the scheduled winter services at Shannon Airport. Deputies will find that the reply is reasonably satisfactory and I think there is no need to deal with that here.

Deputy Cosgrave asked whether the industries established at Shannon are free to employ anybody or whether they must confine themselves to those who have become unemployed through any reduction in the number of landings. The answer is that, so far, nobody has become unemployed at Shannon as a result of any reduction in the number of flights and there is no rule of the kind Deputy Cosgrave envisaged. Quite obviously, the company must be free to employ those whom they may regard as suitable for particular crafts and particular industrial operations. Naturally, they would consider sympathetically people who were unemployed as a result of any changes at Shannon Airport.

A Deputy asked whether care would not have to be exercised in the design of industrial buildings erected in advance for a new industry. I am given to understand that there have been six factory bays erected—four large and two small bays. There are potential occupants for all. These are standard types of industrial buildings but the company would be prepared to build structures for special purposes, if asked to do so. So far anyway, no financial risk is believed to have been taken in designing in advance buildings for industries coming to Shannon.

I think I have dealt with all the points raised during the course of the debate. Once again, I should like to thank the House for the friendly reception which they have given to this measure which will provide sufficient capital and grounds to enable this company to go ahead and do a piece of vital national work which, I am sure, we all hope will be successful.

Mr. Sweetman

Before the Minister concludes, could he state who the directors are? Are they civil servants?

Mr. Childers

They are civil servants and business men.

Mr. Sweetman

Has the Minister got the names?

Mr. Childers

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

If the Minister would give them now, it would save me annoying him with a question.

Mr. Childers

The names are: Mr. Brendan O'Regan, Chairman; Directors: Mr. G. Farren; Mr. Noel Huggard; Colonel Maher, Airport Manager; Mr. A. Kennan, Assistant Secretary, Department of Industry and Commerce; Mr. J. McKensey, Senior Partner in the Firm of Urwick Orr, Industrial Consultants and Mr. J.J. Walshe, Member of the Fair Trade Commission and former member of the Industrial Development Authority.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 4th November, 1959.