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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1959

Vol. 178 No. 3

Staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas Bill, 1959—Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

On the Fifth Stage I should like to say that I was disappointed with the attitude the Minister adopted concerning certain members of the staff. On Committee Stage the Minister undertook to consider an amendment between then and Report Stage which would cover certain members of the staff who were not already covered and whose service was insufficient to qualify them for full pension on retirement. He did introduce on Report Stage an amendment which, while it might apply to a case of two, in no sense meets the requirements.

In passing legislation of this sort it is not sufficient to say that the proposed amendment gives the same conditions to other members of the staff as it gives to the two members of the staff who are provided for ad hoc in the section of the Bill which makes special provision for them. Nobody in any way wishes to question the propriety of covering them and I referred to that on Committee Stage, but it is not a correct description to say that added years are being given, more especially when it concerns members of the staff who might be described as being in the lower ranks, who will ultimately retire on much smaller pensions and who have given long, loyal, efficient and satisfactory service here but who, because of the peculiar circumstances in which they were recruited, find that they are not entitled to full service although they may have spent their entire period in the public service of this country and, because of the manner in which they were recruited, or the technical manner in which they are established, will be ultimately short of a year or a few years for pension purposes. I suggested that it might be possible to consider giving them, where necessary, up to a maximum of five years' additional qualification period—not more than five years—and if some people were still short, that would be their misfortune.

It is most unsatisfactory for the Minister to have brought in an amendment and purport to confer a benefit by equating their terms of service with people who are provided for specificially in this legislation and, because it happens to suit, to suggest 26 years in the case of these lower members of the staff merely because 26 years was the period decided upon or considered appropriate in respect of the Superintendent and the Captain of the Guard. That is what I regard as a bureaucratic approach to a question of this sort.

This Bill legislates ad hoc for two particular cases. These were exceptional cases, exceptional circumstances, and they justify the exceptional provisions which were made in the Bill for them. That applies also to the cases of other members of the staff, who might be regarded as lower down in the hierarchy of the officers of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas, who probably had not the same opportunities of presenting their case to the Minister and consequently are not getting the same treatment. I want to urge the Minister to reconsider his attitude and to reconsider it sympathetically so that the treatment that is being given to two members of the staff will be translated into concrete terms for inclusion in this Bill in regard to other members of the staff.

This situation will not arise again. There is no fear of comparable cases arising in other sections of the Civil Service because the Houses of the Oireachtas are peculiar in that the terms of employment, the conditions of work, the circumstances of recruitment, and so forth, all make it a special and entirely separate part of the State service. Consequently there is no reason why similar problems should arise or why it can be in any sense regarded as a precedent. I know that the Minister and the Establishment Section of his Department would be worried about precedents or comparable conditions being claimed for other members of the Civil Service who are short of service and who would be anxious to get added years.

Might I point out to Deputy Cosgrave that it is not in order on the Fifth Stage to advocate amendments? On the Fifth Stage, only what is contained in the Bill arises for discussion.

I am criticising the fact that the provision that is in the Bill is inadequate to cover the cases I have mentioned and which would have been covered if this legislation had been framed, as it should have been, to cover those members of the staff who have given very loyal and efficient service, who will find themselves without any means of redress once this legislation is passed and who will be short of the necessary years to qualify for full pension. When we legislate ad hoc for special cases it is not necessary to say that we are prepared to take one or two or any number of cases but we are not prepared to take the others. If it is sauce for one section of the staff it ought to be sauce for the rest. Consequently the terms of legislation produced in this Bill do not meet the just claims of the members of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas who are entitled to sympathetic consideration.

We are in the extraordinary position in regard to this Bill that the Opposition went as far in their support of the Minister as the Minister was prepared to go and, indeed, had to point out to the Minister that they believed the provisions were not sufficient. We still have to come in at this late stage and draw attention not merely to the good things that are in the Bill but to the fact that the Minister refused to make the Bill what he could have made it.

The figure of 26 years' service mentioned by the Minister is what seems to be causing all the trouble. Benefit has been given to people to bring them up to 26 years but the Minister is adamant in his refusal to give any benefit to many who may be just over it and who are entitled to the same treatment as the Minister is rightfully according to a few.

The Minister knows that one man is being victimised because five or six weeks interfered with his being considered as an established officer. That person has approximately 13 years of established service plus 50 per cent. of 25 years' unestablished service. If this employee should continue to be an employee of this House until retirement age, roughly ten years' time, the six years about which we have heard so much from the Minister will be of no benefit to him because in order to secure the right to pension based on 34 years' service, he will have to have had 45 or 46 years' employment. It seems tragic that some can work for less than 25 years and be brought up to 26 years, while others may work a lot more than 26 years and get no extra benefit. Surely the Minister must be prepared at this late stage, when all members of the House have favoured him with their full co-operation in relation to this measure, to admit that every one of us cannot be wrong. This Bill because of its inadequacy will prove completely unfair in the years to come to employees of this House and the Seanad. It would be a sad reflection on the Minister and all concerned with this Bill if these benefits are bestowed only on a few when in equity they should be bestowed in equal measure on other employees of the Oireachtas.

I do not propose to go back again over all the ground I covered on the Report Stage. I sincerely hope the Minister when he replies will tell us that he has had the softening of his heart we all wished for in the time during which this Fifth Stage was put back. Apart from that, the Minister, in column 256 of the Dáil Debates of the 19th November, 1959, referred to the fact that the Bill must go through both the Dáil and Seanad before the Recess because it must be law by the middle of January. The Minister says I am aware of the reason for that. I do not know what the reason is unless it is that one of the two people concerned comes to the age limit in the middle of January. As far as I can see from the Debates, no reason for that date was set out. In the Bill there is nothing which makes it necessary to cover transfer from being civil servants of the Government to being civil servants of the State before the middle of January. That is not a matter that comes of necessity before that date and I should like the Minister to tell us what is the necessity to which he referred there.

I sincerely hope he will now tell us that when he goes up to the Seanad he will get a recommendation moved there to ensure that justice is done to all classes and not only to a certain number of a class.

I am sure Deputy Sweetman was aware of this at one time but he has probably forgotten the point. The Civil Service Regulation Act applies to the staffs of these Houses up to——

Yes. We put in a date. I had forgotten.

If this Act were not passed before the 17th February the staff could not be paid. With regard to the other points, I do not think it is necessary to go over the whole ground again. I appear to have looked on this in a different way from Deputies opposite. As I explained here on more than one occasion, there were two officers who had distinguished service in the War of Independence. As I also explained in answer to the charge of political victimisation, they took different sides in the Civil War. They would retire in the ordinary way with rather meagre pensions.

As I explained, I felt that in the future those two posts would be filled by men from the Army or Garda Síochána who would have fairly substantial pensions before taking these jobs, or alternatively, they might be filled by young men who would earn a decent pension in the job itself. I felt it was the last occasion on which we would have, in positions of this kind, two men with distinguished service who would in the ordinary way retire with rather meagre pensions. It was provided in the Bill in the first instance that their pensions would be increased by about six years, bringing them up to about 26 years. The reason why a particular term was taken was because one of them would have reached about that stage if he had remained in the force in which he was.

As I looked at it, there was no reason why, from that point of view, members of the ordinary staff should look for any change under this Bill. It was merely taking them over as servants of the State from the status they had as civil servants of the Government, taking them over exactly as they stood with their rights, privileges and so on. I admit a case was made by members of the Opposition on behalf of some classes, like ushers and so on, that they deserved to have something done for them.

Looking at it from my point of view, I brought in an amendment to give them all at least the same privileges given to the other two officers mentioned. Deputy Sweetman argued very strongly and, I am sure, convincingly, from his own point of view, that in bringing them up to 26 years I was not applying the proper principle and that the proper principle was to give every man six years. That point of view can be argued, but it was not the way I looked at it. Therefore, I have to adhere to the amendment I brought in. As I say, I do not think it is necessary to go back over the whole ground again. We have to accept the Bill as it stands and see what the Seanad thinks about it.

Is it not right to say that one man, because of roughly five or six weeks' disemployment when he was in jail in 1921, is being deprived of the benefits of the Bill?

I came across a few cases of that kind in my time. That arises from the Superannuation Acts. I admit we could make it right in this Bill. Everybody in the Civil Service is in the same position and will remain in that position unless we amend the Superannuation Acts.

Everyone in the Civil Service is not an I.R.A. man; this man is. Would the Minister consider it?

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 43.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Hogan, Bridget.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Wycherley, Florence.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman; Níl: Deputies Casey and M. P. Murphy.
Question declared carried.
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