Petroleum and other Minerals Development Bill, 1959.—Report and Final Stages.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 6, section 2 (1), between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following new definition:—

"‘petroleum well' means a boring or other excavation in the earth's crust made for the purpose of extracting petroleum;".

This is the amendment suggested by Deputy Esmonde and I do not think it is much of an improvement on what I stated to be the definition of a petroleum well, a hole in the ground made for the purpose of extracting petroleum. Probably more flowery language is used and it now reads "‘petroleum well' means a boring or other excavation in the earth's crust made for the purpose of extracting petroleum." I hope that meets the Deputy's point.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I want to thank the Minister for meeting me on this point but I find myself in a further difficulty in this matter in that, since Committee Stage, I have had information which I have checked and I understand that petroleum in America is a term for gas and that the usual term that is used is oil. I was wondering, since there seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity in the word "petroleum"—it is extensively defined in the context of the Bill; I think in the first section—would the Minister think on it again and consider might it not be better to use "oil well" instead of "petroleum well"? The definition would be exactly the same but it would cover the point completely.

I know very little about it except what I have read but I find in Caltex and other company reports they are referred to as oil wells rather than petroleum wells. I do not know if there is anything in the point, but apparently this Bill is for the purpose of dealing with an American company and I thought it might be desirable, when the Bill is considered in the Seanad, for the Minister to turn it into an oil Bill instead of leaving it as a petroleum Bill.

Mr. Sweetman

Did the Minister look at the definition of "well" in the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act of 1954 of British Columbia? There is a lovely definition there.

Mr. J. Lynch

The British Columbia Act referred to was examined.

Mr. Sweetman

Has the Minister examined what is a seismic shot hole?

Mr. J. Lynch

I said it was examined; I did not say I examined it.

Mr. Dillon

I think the definition is most poetical. It runs into 10 lines.

Mr. J. Lynch

I do not think there is any point in giving an undertaking to Deputy Esmonde that I shall look into it again. It is adequately defined and there can be no confusion.

Mr. Sweetman

In British Columbia, oil is defined as being petroleum.

Mr. Dillon

In Ireland, remarkably enough, petroleum is defined as meaning oil, and a number of other things.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 7, to delete section 6, lines 51 to 53.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 3:—

In page 9, section 10 (2), line 30, to substitute "twenty-one" for "fourteen".

This amendment is to meet another point made by Deputy Esmonde. It extends the period of notice from 14 days to 21 days. I do not think the amendment goes as far as the Deputy wanted me to go, but the amendment is as far as I can go.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I am grateful to the Minister for small mercies.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 4:—

In page 10, section 12 (2), line 39, to substitute "twenty-one" for "fourteen".

This amendment is consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 9:—

In page 14, section 25 (1) (a)—

(a) in line 53, to substitute "two months" for "one month", and

(b) in line 54, to substitute "four" for "three".

This amendment again extends the period of notices required to be given in the case of acquisition of working facilities. The notice extends the time from one month to two months.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 10:—

In page 15, section 25 (1) (b), line 7, to substitute "two months" for "one month".

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 9.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 12:—

In page 19, section 40, line 31, to delete "and no others shall be entitled" and substitute "shall be entitled, by counsel or solicitor or in person".

Deputy Barrett, and some other Deputies, raised a question in relation to appearances before the Mining Board; the section as it stood excluded everybody but the Minister and the claimant. Deputy Barrett thought that might exclude the claimant being represented by solicitor or counsel. The amendment makes it clear that the claimant may be represented by solicitor or counsel, or may appear in person.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

The Minister has met the position very fairly.

Mr. Sweetman

It is a much clearer section now.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 13:—

In page 19, section 41, line 39, to insert "19" after "17".

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 7.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 14:—

In page 20, section 46, line 41, to delete "and no others, shall be entitled" and substitute "shall be entitled, by counsel or solicitor or in person,".

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 12.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 15:—

In page 22, to delete section 50, lines 23 to 31.

This amendment has the effect of deleting Section 50.

Mr. Sweetman

Why?

Mr. J. Lynch

Further reference will be made to this in later amendments. Deputy Dillon suggested that the mere notification by one Minister of State to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that a debt is due should not create powers in the Minister for Industry and Commerce in relation to compensation. The provision that caused the difficulty is now being deleted and it will be replaced at a later stage by Section 67.

Mr. Dillon

I am much obliged.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 16:—

In page 23, to delete section 52 (4), lines 7 to 9.

This amends the original Bill inasmuch as it now empowers anybody who is aggrieved by a decision of the High Court to appeal to the Supreme Court. That was not in the original Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 23, Section 54 (1) (a), to delete line 30 and substitute the following—

"(ii) safety measures in relation to petroleum operations."

Deputy Sweetman commented that the scope of the regulations to be made under Section 54 was not sufficient to provide, for example, against fire hazards and for other safety measures. This is an omnibus section which will enable regulations to be made to include all these.

Mr. Sweetman

Have the regulations under Section 54 to be tabled?

Mr. J. Lynch

Yes.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 23, Section 54 (1) (a), between lines 40 and 41, to insert the following new subparagraph:

"(viii) such other matters in relation to petroleum operations as the Minister thinks necessary or expedient to provide for."

This, again, is an extension of the regulations that may be made.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 27, to insert, in Part II, between lines 31 and 32, the following new section:

Where the amount of any compensation which is payable under this Act by the Minister to any person is determined by an award, and a debt is due and owing by that person to any Minister of State or to the Central Fund, the Minister may deduct the amount of the debt from such compensation, and may direct that the amount so deducted be (as the case may require) either paid to the appropriate Minister of State or paid into or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer in such manner as the Minister for Finance may direct.

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 15.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 20 not moved.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 21:—

In page 28, section 74 (1) (b), in line 39, to substitute "twenty-one" for "fourteen".

This amendment is consequential on a previous amendment extending the notice period from 14 days to 21 days.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 26:—

In page 30, before section 84, line 16, to insert the following new section:—

In section 64 of the Principal Act, "shall be entitled, by counsel or solicitor or in person," shall be substituted for "and no others shall be entitled".

This is consequential on amendment No. 12.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 27:—

In page 30, before section 84, line 16, to insert the following new section:—

Subsection (4) of section 71 of the Principal Act is hereby repealed.

This is consequential on a previous amendment providing for appeal from the High Court to the Supreme Court.

Mr. Sweetman

That is the deletion of the same provision from the Principal Act.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is right.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 28:—

In page 30, before section 84, line 16, to insert the following new section:—

In section 72 of the Principal Act, the words "the Minister is notified before payment of such compensation that" shall be deleted.

This amendment deals with Deputy Dillon's point that a debt must, in fact, exist and that it is not sufficient for a Minister to tell the Minister for Industry and Commerce that a debt is due.

Mr. Dillon

An award must be made.

Mr. J. Lynch

It does not necessarily mean an award. That must be proved. The person against whom a debt is alleged will have the right to impose an obligation on the Minister concerned to prove that a debt is due. I thought it would be going too far to require the Minister to get judgment against the person because that would obviously add to the amount of the debt and thereby reduce the amount of compensation payable.

Mr. Dillon

This is certainly an improvement on the original.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration".

Sir Anthony Esmonde

On Committee Stage, I raised a question in relation to confining the area to a quarter square mile. I made the point that it was possible for oil to be discovered outside that area. Oil might extend further than the quarter square mile and a person who was outside that area would get no compensation. I have been informed that I am correct in what I said then, though the Minister and his advisers maintained it was not possible. I am advised it is possible that oil may extend a very considerable distance underground. For that reason, I should like the Minister to take a further look at the position between now and the introduction of the Bill in the Seanad to see if he could extend the area or make it possible in some way to compensate people who would have oil extracted from under their soil, although they are not in the actual area itself. It sounds rather complicated.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy's point is that boring from a particular point might deviate from the perpendicular.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

No. It would actually go outside.

Mr. J. Lynch

Go outside the point at which the boring was made.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

It would draw oil from land outside the quarter square mile.

Mr. J. Lynch

My advice from expert sources is that the possibility of going outside the area does not exist. The point the Deputy makes is not well taken, as far as experience in oil drilling is concerned.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

The Minister told me that on Committee Stage.

Mr. Blowick

Does the Minister say it is not possible that oil might be attracted from land adjoining the land actually being drilled?

Mr. J. Lynch

Practice to date has shown that it is not likely. Anyway, the possibility is excluded by our experts.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I have advice to the contrary. Perhaps the Minister might look into it again.

Mr. J. Lynch

I shall, between now and the debate in the Seanad, but I do not think it is necessary.

Question put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. J. Lynch

A few points were raised by other Deputies, but I do not think it is necessary for me to deal with them. I want to say that I am very glad of the assistance given to me by Deputies and I think for that reason the Bill has emerged a better medium of legislation.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 10 Dec 1959

Petroleum and other Minerals Development Bill, 1959.—Report and Final Stages.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Dec 1959