When progress was reported I was dealing with the possible effects of this Bill in one respect, which may or may not have been taken into account—not just the effect of longer trading hours in regard to those who drink but the wider aspect of the possible effect generally on those compelled to earn their livelihood as employees or as people engaged in the licensed trade, perhaps with their families. I am also concerned with the effect on a wider and, possibly the most important, section of the community, so far as the House is concerned, the general public.
The Bill provides for an extension of one hour each week night. It might be of interest to read again some of the reasons adduced by those who presented the majority report of the Commission for recommending that bona fide traffic be done away with. On page 7 of the Report, evidence is reported of Chief Superintendent Quinn, Garda Division of Counties Dublin and Wicklow, in the course of which he gives figures for prosecutions for drunkenness and disorderly conduct. He said that a large proportion of the offenders were persons who had come out from Dublin. Instancing the dangers of the roads, he pointed out that in 1955 in Dublin, 53 out of a total of 65 prosecutions for driving while drunk involved vehicles alleged to have come from licensed premises catering for bona fide travellers and that in 43 road accidents, vehicles returning from such premises were involved. This information is related to bona fide hours which were supposed to end at 12 o'clock. I should be very much interested to hear the Minister explain to what extent a reduction in the drinking hours from midnight to 11.30 p.m. would have an effect on this situation.
Chief Superintendent Connolly, of the Dublin Metropolitan Area, stated that in the same year there were over 74 prosecutions for drunken driving offences detected in his division and that 45 of these were detected between 10.30 p.m. and 3 a.m.
The proposal in this Bill is to keep the public-houses open until 11 p.m. and 11.30 p.m. Some of the prosecutions referred to by Superintendent Connolly involved vehicles returning from outside the city area. Judge Conroy informed the Commission that it was the experience of the circuit judges that, in the hearing of many civil actions and appeals relating to road traffic cases, there was evidence that the people involved had been drinking late at night and that the same evidence was present in criminal appeals against convictions for assaults following on visits to bona fide houses. That report relates to the situation where the official closing hour was 12 o'clock. The Minister proposes to remedy that situation by doing one thing which is good and which I would like to support wholeheartedly— abolishing the bona fide trade—but whatever good may be achieved by that, the proposal to extend drinking hours generally is certainly a most reactionary and retrograde step.
The Minister for Lands, I think, referred to the position of those who, of necessity, work in the catering trade and in other trades or industries which may necessitate working odd hours, outside normal working hours, or even outside hours normally worked by the farming community. His reference was to the need for this, mark you, as if there was in general the same accent on the need in our community for drink as there is for food, clothing and shelter. What about the need and the right of those engaged in selling drink? Have they no need, no right to relaxation or to a proper family life?
I want to bring out one aspect of this matter. For those drinking in a public-house, 11 p.m. or 11.30 p.m. may not entail a very late hour. They can leave and go home at that hour, but the people who work in the public-houses or hotels must remain on to perform various duties and leave the establishment ready for the next day's trading. Their finishing time may be midnight or 12.30 a.m. The Minister for Lands is very familiar with the rural areas and the small towns. If I go to one of the smaller towns in a rural area and need a meal and go to a hotel, possibly about 8 o'clock, and ask for a meal, generally I am told—and it is quite right—that the staff are entitled to some relaxation and possibly I get a cup of tea and a sandwich or tea and biscuits. My need is food and refreshment but if I go into the same establishment and ask for a pint of stout or a half of whiskey, I shall get it.
In speaking on the Second Stage of the Bill I inquired where the demand comes from for these increased drinking hours. Some Deputy said today that there was evidence presented to the Liquor Commission that when public-houses were closed there was an exodus from the urban areas to the bona fide premises for the additional hour. Therefore, according to the statement made in this House, the demand is not from people who need a drink, who are not able to sit down and have a quiet drink and then go home; it is a demand from people who have been already drinking from one to two hours.
I do not drink. I am a life long teetotaller but I am not blind. I have observed that one of the most common factors attaching to drink is that the more you have the more you want, and the pitiful tale told about people in the rural community not being able to get relaxation is hardly credible. In referring to this aspect of the matter I have in mind mainly those employed on farms. Deputies have told us that a very serious hardship would be imposed on this section of our community not only if the Bill is not passed in its present form but even if the new hour were 11 p.m. or 11.30 p.m. and not the existing position as applies to the bona fide traffic.
I do not know whether people ever read in the newspapers of the average wage rate paid to farm labourers. It is inconceiveable that these citizens would be economically in a position to take advantage of this Bill. The statement is made also that during the summer months the farming community, including the farm labourers, are working until 8, 9, or 10 o'clock every night. As far as I know, there is only one pay day in agriculture as there is in industry and the level of payment there would not permit the farm labourer to purchase much drink unless at the expense of the family he is supporting.
The suggestion has been made by Deputy McQuillan that people in the urban areas coming out of theatres and picture houses having had their evening's relaxation, are entitled to go into a public-house which is kept open for their pleasure. I take it Deputy McQuillan will also suggest that in order to complete the evening the people who serve the public in the public transport undertakings should also be required to work later hours. There is no thought for their families, not much regard for the time they can get home or whether they can get relaxation, just because somebody wants to drink at a particular hour in the evening.
The statement has been made in the course of this debate that extending the drinking hours by one hour in the day would not increase the consumption of liquor. If that is true, is there any reason to extend the hours? Why should the hours of 10 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. be altered and the proposed hours of 11 p.m. and 11.30 p.m. be introduced? According to some Deputies it is purely for the purpose of allowing people who would drink from 9 p.m. to 10 or 10.30 p.m., to drink an hour later.
There is nothing under the present legislation which prevents a person who wants a drink going into a hotel or a public-house, drinking in comfort and proceeding home, as we all normally do, to our families. However, if there is this exodus and if there is this difficulty in having public-houses closed under present conditions, will this Bill improve the situation one whit? I do not think so.
Reference has been made to two gentlemen on the Commission who are members of the Total Abstinence Association. It appears from the correction properly inserted by the Minister that the gentlemen concerned felt they were under an obligation to choose what they considered the lesser of two evils. However, they are not representatives of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and it does not appear, while the Association gave evidence, that though the majority report was signed by them, it was signed under very clear and specific conditions.
We should recognise that if there is some right for people to enjoy themselves, there is a much greater right that such enjoyment should not cause unnecessary hardship to others and should not cause unnecessary difficulty and problems in families and homes. Anyone who goes through the city of Dublin at present can easily note that between 11 and 11.30 p.m. the centre of the city, to all intents and purposes, is dead. The people have gone home to their families and to get some rest and relaxation to face their tasks the following day. The last buses are leaving. People come out of the cinemas and theatres and are on their way home. In a city of about half a million people, there may be a few late dances. Go into the residential areas. The lights are out and the people have settled down.
The Minister proposes that that condition should be changed and that instead of, as a regular thing, people being settled down, children gone to bed, mothers having cleared up and set the house ready for the morning, at 11 or 12 o'clock at night the public houses will be closing and the men only then going home. To whose benefit? Is it of benefit to the people engaged in tourism? We are told it is not.
Deputations that have attended on the various Parties have explained fairly carefully that aside from those in the upper income brackets who grace our shores from time to time, the bulk of the tourists come from across the water. The largest proportion of those is represented by emigrants coming home for a short holiday and next are people coming for an ordinary holiday, most of whom have the same general habits as ourselves. If they want a little pleasure or a little relaxation, they take it in the ordinary hours and they get home to their hotels, boarding-houses or families at a reasonable hour. Therefore, for whom are we catering?
I think we are all aware that for some years there has been a fairly persistent campaign by certain sections of people who came to speak for the tourist industry for not only a lengthening of the hours but almost for the abolition of licensing laws. They represent a small section but they appear to be wielding a somewhat unusual amount of influence. At a time when I think all sides of this House and representatives of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association, temperance societies, Safety First organisations, the Garda Síochána and everyone else are congratulating themselves that drunkenness is ceasing to be a problem, we are now proposing deliberately to turn the clock back.
We have reason to be proud that the young people growing up in this country, the boys and girls of 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 years of age or so, are, generally speaking, much more sober than their counterparts of about 30 years ago. There are many reasons for this very welcome development, one of which may be that conditions have changed somewhat. There has been some improvement in social standards. There has been some improvement in housing. The public house is not now the only cutlet for a person who is leading a rather miserable existence.
At this stage, in the absence of any concerted application for extended hours, except the one in this Report that arises out of an abuse of the bona fide law, it is recommended that the hours of general trading be extended. We are contemplating doing this with very little regard indeed to the general interest. The Pioneer Total Abstinence Association has gone on record in this connection. I think there is scarcely a Deputy who has not received representations from people associated with that organisation in the various constituencies. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, representing not 300,000 but almost 500,000 workers, is concerned lest the measure before us proved detrimental to the interest of workers, inevitably lengthen their hours, adversely affect their family life and deprive them of reasonable relaxation. Even the people who drink have not as yet found an advocate for this extension.