Deputy Ryan gave notice that he was raising the subject matter of Question No. 28 on to-day's Order Paper on the adjournment. The only matter that arises is the Director's refusal to publish the detailed results.
Adjournment Debate. - Radio Éireann Listener Inquiry.
Mr. Ryan
I want to apologise to the Minister for detaining him, not only at the end of this day but at the end of this session of the Dáil, but the matter which I raise is of very great importance. The persons I should like to have sitting there, not for a half hour but until midnight and perhaps later, are the Director of Broadcasting and the senior officials of Radio Éireann and of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.
We may not discuss anybody except the Minister. The Minister is responsible to this House.
Mr. Ryan
The tradition of Parliament being what it is, the Minister is the person responsible, but, though it is his responsibility, a week ago he declined to answer the question which he had to answer to-day when he was asked it in another form. My objection to the fact that Radio Éireann has not published the results of its listener inquiry is that it is a public body, spending the taxpayers' money, and when it held this inquiry, It went about it for the purpose of improving a service which it is supposed to be providing for the public. I think that if the findings of that inquiry were in favour of Radio Éireann, they would have been published in detail and not in the form of a summary of some unimportant aspects. Unfortunately, I have not yet in my possession the summary which was given to the Press in June, 1955, but, as far as my recollection goes, that summary was confined to an indication of the hours of maximum listening. It showed the hours of peak listening and the hours of valley listening.
Is the Deputy entitled to discuss this summary and what is in it?
The only matter he raised was the refusal to publish the detailed results of the last listener inquiry. I take it that it is the decision not to publish which is the subject matter of this debate.
Mr. Ryan
It is the declining to publish the detailed inquiry. I cannot understand why the Minister should object to discussing the summary, unless the summary was not a true representation of the position. I believe the most important result of that inquiry was to show——
I do not think we can publish what was in the inquiry. The question relates to the failure to publish the result of the inquiry.
Yes. On a point of order, surely Deputy Ryan is entitled to indicate to the House what he hopes to be able to ascertain from the publication of the detailed report, to say that the only information that he has so far is the summary and that the summary leaves certain gaps which he wishes the Minister by his answer to fill?
On a point of order, as I understand it, this debate is on the question that was tabled here to-day.
It is.
The question relates to the publication of the results of an inquiry. I was asked if I was aware that the Director of Broadcasting has declined to publish the detailed results. That is the only matter which I think I am concerned with in my reply and what is contained in the inquiry or the listener research or in the summary is not a matter for discussion arising out of this question.
Surely Deputy Ryan is entitled to say why he wanted it published?
He did not ask me that question.
"Declined to publish" is the main part. That has been discussed. "Declined to publish"—I think Deputy Ryan should find it possible to confine himself to that.
Mr. Ryan
While I respectfully agree that that is portion of the question, my question to-day also goes on to say:
...if in view of the relevance of that inquiry to the current debate on the proposed establishment of a new radio and television authority he will have the matter reconsidered.
That did not arise at all.
Mr. Ryan
I have asked that this information be made available in order that informed opinion might be brought to bear in relation to the setting up and the behaviour of the new television authority. With respect, I feel that it is fair to state my beliefs as to the reasons why this report has not been published and, if I am wrong, it is open to the Minister to contradict me. If I am wrong I shall certainly welcome correction.
On a point of order I cannot go into the question of what is in this survey or in this summary at all because I am confined to what is in the question, within the rules of order of the House, and I do not think that question is open for discussion.
What is open for discussion is the disinclination to publish—declining to publish.
Yes. Surely Deputy Ryan is entitled to say: "I believe the Minister's disinclination to publish is founded on the following facts." It is open to the Minister to say that these are not the facts on which the disinclination was founded at all.
If Deputy Ryan will quote the facts——
He will tell the Minister if the Minister sits there and listens.
He has not seen the report and has no facts.
There is something to suggest that he saw it on the quite.
I do not think Deputies are entitled to discuss suggestions here.
Now, now.
I am not prepared to answer on suggestions.
Mr. Ryan
If I am ignorant of the facts, then the blame lies on the Director of Broadcasting because the information was not given to me nor to the other members of the Irish public who contributed towards the cost of this inquiry. I believe that the reason the result of this inquiry was not published was that it showed that the majority of the Irish radio audience do not listen to Radio Éireann at all. I say further, and I honestly believe, that it showed that 25 per cent. of the Irish listening audience, or a figure that is in that region, never listen to Radio Éireann at all.
I believe also that it showed that less than 2 per cent. of the Irish public listen to any radio programmes in the Irish language from Radio Éireann. Is maith liomsa a ránach bhfuilim in aghaidh na teangan. I am saying that because there are foolish people in this country who, if you try to have the truth known and recorded, accuse you of being hostile to the Irish language. I believe that the reason that the results were not published is that the official side did not want to explode the balloon which has been hanging above the Irish people for years. The fact is that the only way of testing Irish public opinion in relation to the Irish language was through the radio, and it showed that when people had an opportunity of turning the radio on or off they turned off the programmes in Irish.
Cad é an mhaitheas a dheineann an cainnt sin do chúis na teangan?
Mr. Ryan
The Parliamentary Secretary is typical of the kind of people to whom I have referred.
Cad é an mhaitheas a dheineann an cainnt sin do chúis na teangan?
Mr. Ryan
I have but 20 minutes and the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister know that.
Maith go leor, Lean leat.
Mr. Ryan
The point I want to make is that the Irish people should be given the information which was secured by a public inquiry in exercise of its public duty. Does anybody here think for a moment that if the findings of this inquiry were in favour of Radio Éireann and showed that 85 per cent. of listeners were listening to it and that 95 per cent. were listening to programmes in Irish that it would not have been published? Of course, it would have been. The real reason that it has not been published is that it explodes many of the myths and fantasies that certain people would have us believe.
I want to say also that I believe that one of the reasons there is such a very small percentage of people listening to programmes in the Irish language is that the programmes are of such a deplorably low standard that no matter what language they were in nobody would listen to them.
On a point of order——
That is clearly outside the scope of the question.
Mr. Ryan
Except to this extent——
On a point of order, the Deputy is going outside the terms of the question.
The Deputy may not discuss the programmes on Radio Éireann on this. The Deputy knows that quite well. He can spread himself on the other matter——
And is doing so. His opinion is only the opinion of one individual.
Mr. Ryan
——except in relation to the fact that the reason this inquiry is not published is that it was too full of criticism of those who are running the station, and I am explaining why the criticism is justified.
We cannot have a discussion of programmes on Radio Éireann to establish that. There is a time for that. This is not the time.
Mr. Ryan
The Estimate for Radio Broadcasting for the coming year is in the region of £145,000. I believe that an authority which is getting money directly from this House ought to be answerable to this House even if it is not prepared to give wide publication of its own volition. I believe that when a Deputy puts down a question in relation to the conduct of a State body or in relation to statistics or information available in any Department of State it ought to be given. It must be remembered that, apart from any practice which may have grown up, Radio Éireann is still directly responsible to this House. It is only when it does not suit Radio Éireann to give the information that a Minister comes into the House and says that he cannot answer it as it is a matter for the Radio authority in question.
As members of the House will recall, last week, I had two questions addressed to the Minister, on one day about Radio Éireann, one in relation to this inquiry. I was not given any information in relation to it. I was referred to the Director of Broadcasting. My second question was with regard to the discontinuance of a particular sponsored programme. I got the answer to that question. I was not told that the Minister had no function and that I had to go to the authority. It did not matter in the second case whether the information was given to the public or not. In the first case, it mattered a great deal but it did not suit the people who are running such a poor service to give the information.
I cannot allow the Deputy to travel all that way. Raising a Question on the Adjournment should be an extension of the original Question, seeking to get more information than was given in the reply to the Question. The Deputy may not travel outside the bounds of this Question.
Mr. Ryan
I respectfully bow to your direction, Sir, but it is obviously desirable at this stage, when there is so much interest in radio and television programmes, that the inquiry should be published. It is a fact that it is now some five years old but Radio Éireann has not changed so much over five years. Therefore, the Minister is not quite right in saying the statistics would be out of date. I doubt very much that they would be, except in so far as the number of people who formerly listened to the radio now look at television. The statistics would still be very much the same in relation to the people who listen to the radio.
The reason they have not published and will not publish the information is that they reflect on those who are administering the service and who are putting on the programmes at the present time. I appreciate what the Minister said in reply to a supplementary of mine to-day that the best course might be to carry out a new inquiry. I would support the Minister in that if I thought for one moment the findings would be published, but the attitude of the powers-that-be indicates they would not be published. If they were not published in 1955 and will not be published now. I fail to see that the results would be published if another inquiry were to be established.
I honestly believe the findings of an inquiry at the present time would coincide, in the main, with the principal findings of the 1955 inquiry, which were that the majority of the Irish listening public tend to listen to a foreign station and that programmes which are supposed to be encouraging the people to love and respect their national culture and their national tongue are not being listened to at all, because they are of such a deplorably low standard.
It is regrettable that it is necessary to raise this matter on the Adjournment. It is regrettable that the information paid for by the Irish taxpayer was not given to the people at the proper time. It is also regrettable that we should have to wait some five years before the matter is raised in this way in Dáil Éireann. That certainly is no fault of mine. I am sure the Minister will not blame me for that but it is most unfortunate that that should be. However, the matter is topical by reason of the current discussions on radio and television affairs. On that account, a new opportunity is given for the publication of these figures and if the Minister maintains his attitude, then it will only convince the people even more as to the reasons why the information was not published, that is, that the findings reflect upon those who conduct the programmes.
I would welcome the Minister correcting me if I am wrong in the reasons I have given but I respectfully ask him not to abuse me and say I am jumping to conclusions, that I have not got any basis for them. It is quite possible I have a basis for them which the Minister does not know and which I am under no obligation to communicate to him, seeing that a public authority will not communicate information to the public. I believe the findings of the inquiry are a sad reflection on us all as a people, but I do not think there is anything to be gained by hiding unpleasant facts. That is what is being done and what has been done since the inquiry was first made.
This question was tabled today by Deputy Ryan, in which he asked if I was aware that the Director of Broadcasting had declined to publish the detailed results of the last listener enquiry conducted by Radio Éireann. I answered that question. I told Deputy Ryan that I understood that the 1955 listener research inquiry was undertaken primarily to provide Radio Éireann with information and assistance in connection with the planning of programmes. I also told him that such a length of time had elapsed since the survey was carried out that the statistic, if they were now published, would be rather out of date. In the circumstances, I did not see that any purpose would be served by publishing them now in detail.
I am, I know, responsible legally to this House for the day-to-day administration of Radio Éireann but, in 1953, a decision was taken by the then Minister to establish Comhairle Radio Éireann and he indicated then to the public and to the House that he proposed for the future to leave the day-to-day administration of Radio Éireann to that council and that practice has been followed by each Minister up to now.
This survey was undertaken, a summary of which was published in 1955. The Fianna Fáil Party were not then the Government There was then a Coalition Government in which there were several members of the Deputy's Party, and they decided, in 1955, to publish only a summary. They had reasons of their own for not publishing the complete survey. It is a very long and detailed document and it would cost a good deal of money to publish it. The Deputy thinks now that it would be advisable for me as Minister to ask Radio Éireann to publish this inquiry now and spend further public money on its publication five years after the survey was taken by Comhairle Radio Éireann. I do not think I would be justified in spending money on the publication of a document five years after the survey was carried out.
Mr. Ryan
I shall publicise it free of charge, if the Minister likes.
The Deputy should not interrupt the Minister.
Mr. Ryan
The Deputy interrupted me.
I do not know what the Deputy is saying.
Mr. Ryan
The Parliamentary Secretary seeks to allow the Minister to proceed uninterrupted. I am prepared to allow the Minister to do that but the Parliamentary Secretary interrupted me.
I am answering the Deputy's question but I do not intend to pursue the Deputy on the matters which he raised and which are not relevant to the terms of this question or the question last week. I told the Deputy last week he should address his inquiry to Radio Éireann. We have passed through this House this week a new Bill known as the Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959, which will give legislative effect to the decision taken by the Minister in 1953. In the future, if we have a listener survey, it will be carried out by that Authority and I shall have no responsibility whatsoever as to whether that Authority sees fit to publish that survey or not. It will be a matter entirely for the Authority under the legislation passed by the Oireachtas.
The Dáil adjourned at 8 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 26th April, 1960.