Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 51—Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy MacEoin).

Mr. Sherwin

I was speaking when progress was reported on the question of the policy of the Department of Defence and the Government and stated my view that a conventional type of defence such as the Department have in mind is not the type of defence that would be of any advantage to this country, for the simple reason that we would not be able to withstand a conventional attack. Therefore, the defence that we should develop should be a guerrilla type, which would afford an opportunity to prolong our defence and to do the utmost damage to any aggressor.

That being so, any expenditure on heavy weapons is waste of money. Expenditure on military aviation is also a waste of money because, in case of aggression, one of the first things to suffer would be all surface forces on our side. We would not get a chance to use heavy weapons or military aircraft and no purpose could be served by having them. We should devote every penny to a form of defence which would give us a reasonable chance of making it tell on any possible aggressor. If we want to spend money on armaments we should spend it on portable weapons for use by a guerrilla force, not tanks or big guns, but such things as mortars that could be used to attack a barracks, anti-tank weapons and so on. Expenditure on any other type of equipment is a waste of money.

Some years ago a large accumulation of heavy equipment belonging to the Egyptians was completely destroyed overnight. That gives some idea of the waste involved in the preparation of that kind of defence by the Egyptians against such forces as the British and the French.

This country should plan entirely on terms of guerrilla defence. There would be no need for heavy equipment and the account could be considerably less than it is. It should not be £7½ million. The expenditure could be reduced considerably if some attention were paid to having a proper line of defence, not one that, to my mind, is mere show. That is the only purpose it can serve.

Apart from that subject, which is a rather heavy subject, there are other matters on which I should like to comment now. Last year, I expressed an objection to the use of Irish as a means of promotion in the Army. The Minister indicated that while some Irish was necessary, it was not entirely essential for promotion. I am not a fanatic about Irish. I agree that we should try to cultivate some of our ancient culture and not allow it to die. I have very little respect for quite a lot of our alleged culture because it is something that can be adopted, but the language is one part of our culture which we should try to sustain. I am quite prepared to accept that, but I do not think it should be used for jobbery. That is my objection.

A knowledge of Irish does not make a man more intelligent or more brilliant. Anyone with plenty of time on his hands could learn Irish. I learned a little Irish in jail, but I was shifted around so much that I did not finish learning it, and I have been too busy since earning my living to learn it. It does not follow that if we were at war, I would be a more brilliant soldier if I had a knowledge of Irish. In actual defence, guts and animalism are more necessary. In war, language is of very little concern, so, on that score, we cannot accept that a knowledge of Irish makes men more brilliant. There might be men in Defence who might have no gift for the language but who otherwise are very brilliant men. I should hate to think that those brilliant men were penalised just because they did not know the language and that some fellow just out of college with such a knowledge would be given such responsibility as might lead to a military collapse.

The question of military brilliance does not depend on a knowledge of the language, or on education, either. We know there must be certain standards but, in a real issue, those matters are superfluous. The purpose of defence is defending a country in the best way possible and in the most ruthless way possible. If it ever comes to a showdown, it is military brilliance and not brass bands and the wearing of medals that we want.

I notice in the Estimate that the cost of service medals has increased by almost 100 per cent. Last year, £500 was spent on service medals and this year, the figure is £940. That little point amuses me. How can that account be doubled in one year? I thought all the people entitled to medals had got them and I thought that many people who were not entitled to them had got them.

Mr. T. Lynch

They are probably now giving them to the people who are entitled to them.

Mr. Sherwin

When Deputy Mac-Eoin was Minister for Defence, he said he would set up a commission of inquiry. Some of those people are "phoneys" and the Minister should do something about them. There would, therefore, be fewer service medals involved. I cannot see how the account for service medals can be doubled this year. That is a little matter which tickles my fancy, anyway.

I was asked by some members of the old I.R.A. to raise the question of income tax on their pensions. They think they should not——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter which will arise on the next Estimate.

Mr. Sherwin

Very good. There is another matter which I think ought to be brought to the Minister's attention. A number of old I.R.A. men came to me and said they had no blue cards. They complained that they ought to be able to get treatment in the military hospitals, as old soldiers. In England, I believe there are some privileges——

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the Defence Vote is being discussed by the House and that I.R.A. and service pensions will be dealt with on the next Estimate. The Deputy should confine himself to Defence.

Mr. Sherwin

If we are to deal only with Defence, that is all I have to say. I have expressed my views, views which are based on a good deal of thought and not on just temporary thought because all my life I have been a keen student of these matters. I shall leave details to the members.

Pádraig Ó Fachtna

Thart fá bliain ó shoin shocraigh an t-Aire atheagrú a dhéanamh ar na Forsaí Cosanta sa tír seo. Is é a bhí beartaithe aige a dhéanamh ná An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil a thabhairt isteach go díreach faoin Arm. Roimhe sin bhí dhá roinn sna Fórsaí, an tArm agus an F.C.A. Ar ndóigh bhí ceangal eatorra, ach bhí an ceangal seo iontach scaoilte agus níor chuidigh sin le héifeacht na bhfórsaí i gcoitinne. Bhí roinnt oifigeach airm ag cuidiú leis an bhfórsa ach is beag a thiocfadh leo a dhéanamh faoin chóras mar bhí sé. Bhí an córas sin ceart go leor i rith an chogaidh cion is nach rabh caoi ag an Rialtas athrú a dhéanamh air san am. Ach nuair a bhí an cogadh thart bhí sé in ann athrú a dhéanamh a d'fhágfadh an F.C.A. níos éifeachtaí agus níos foirfe. Anuraidh tosaíodh ar eagar úr a chur ar an fhórsa. Anois tá an F.C.A. go díreach faoin Arm. Tá siad ag fáil traenála le gunnaí úra, gunnaí nach rabh acu roimhe seo. Thig liom a rá gur beag an difir, go dtí seo, a bhí idir an traenáil a bhí á fháil ag an F.C.A. agus an traenáil a fuair siad i rith an chogaidh.

Tá mé go láidir den bharúil gurb é an córas cosanta is fearr a thiocfadh a bheith againn ná córas a bheadh bunaithe ar an F.C.A.—arm beag a bheith againn, oifigigh agus fir oilte go maith a bheith againn mar cadre traenála don F.C.A. Laghdoidh sin costais an Airm go mór, ach chomh maith le sin, bheadh arm againn den tsaghas is fóirstiní don tír seo againn. Ní thiocfadh linne arm a bheith againn a bheadh láidir go leor le seasamh in éadan arm as tír láidir chumhachtach, ach thiocfadh linn arm a bheith againn a chuirfeadh moill ar arm ar bith agus a thabharfadh seans dúinn cuidiú a fháil.

Mholfainn don Aire, an aois a cheadaítear do dhaoine óga le dhul isteach san F.C.A. a laghdú go dtí sé bliana déag ar a laghad. Níor ghá arm ná éide a thabhairt do na daoine óga sin go dtí go mbeadh an toifigeach ceannais sásta ligean dóibh na rudaí sin a bheith acu. Dá dtiocfadh linn daoine óga mar sin a mhealladh isteach san F.C.A. thiocfadh linn rudaí a chur ar siúl a rachadh chun tairbhe do na daoine óga sin. Thiocfadh linn léachtaí a thabhairt dóibh ar an ghrá ba cheart dóibh a thabhairt dá dtír féin agus ar an spiorad poiblí is ceart a bheith acu. Dá mbeadh cúrsaí speisialta traenála trí Ghaeilge againn agus cead ag comhaltaí an F.C.A. freastal orthu, chabhródh sé go mór. Táim cinnte dá dtigeadh linn an spiorad náisiunta a mhúscailt ins na daoine óga—a chur in iúl dóibh go bhfuil tír acu agus gur fiú meas í—go gcuirfeadh sé feabhas ar eacanamíocht na tíre, mar sílim gurb é sin an rud atá in easnamh, spiorad níos fearr a leathnú i measc na ndaoine. Is é an rud tabhachtach ná go dtagann daoine isteach san F.C.A. dá ndeoin féin. Sin é an saghas duine is fearr sa tír so, an duine atá sásta dul isteach i bhfórsa mar seo agus traenáil a dhéanamh chun a thír a chosaint, saor in aisce.

Ba cheart rud éigin a dhéanamh faoin chulaith éadaigh atá á chaitheamh ag comhaltaí an F.C.A. Bhí na héadaigh sin ceart go leor le linn an Chogaidh agus ar feadh tamaill ina dhiaidh sin, ach tá athrú mór tagtha ar na héadaigh atá á ghaitheamh ag an gnáth-shaighdiúir agus tá cuma níos fearr ortha. Táim den bharúil nach bhfuil na daoine óga sásta leis na héadaigh atá acu faoi láthair go mór mhór nuair atá siad ag dul ar chuirm ceoil nó céilí no damhsa faoi stiúrú an F.C.A.

Mura mbeadh sé ro chostasach ba chóir na héadaigh a dhéanamh sa chuid sin den tír in a bhfuil an F.C.A. bunaithe, cur i gcás i gCo. na Midhe agus deisceart Co. Lúbhaidh d'fhéadfadh monarchana i nDroichead Átha na h-éadaigh a sholáthair don F.C.A. agus i dtuaisceart Lúbhaidh agus Mhuineacháin thiocfadh le monarchan i nDúndealgan iad a dhéanamh. Dá mbeadh an tAire sásta éadaigh níos fearr a chur ar fáil do na daoine óga atá san Fhórsa seo, chuideodh sé sin leis an spiorad a árdú ann.

Tá gearrán i measc cuid de na hoifigigh Dara Leifteanant, sna F.C.A. go bhfuil siad ag fanacht ró-fhada le árdú céime, agus go bhfuil siad ag cailleadh airgid nuair a théann siad ar an traenáil bhliantúil. Mar gheall ar sin mholfainn don Aire dul isteach sa chás sin agus an cheist a shocrú comh luath agus is féidir.

Níl fhios agam an bhfuil sé mar ghnás ag an Aire cáipéisí seirbhíse a thabhairt do na fir óga a chaitheann tréimhse san F.C.A. Ba mhaith an rud é dá mbeadh cáipéisí mar seo ag fir óga i ndiaidh cúig bliana a chaitheamh san fhórsa mar chuideodh sé leo post a fháil.

Ba mhaith liom focal molta a rá faoi na daoine atá sa chosaint shibhialta. Tá obair á dhéanamh ag na daoine san eagraíocht sin cosúil le hobair an F.C.A. Tá siad ag déanamh traenála saor in aisce chun a dtír a chosaint dá dtagadh cogadh eile. Ní féidir linn moladh ró-ard a thabhairt dóibh. Ba mhaith liom fosta a iarraidh ar na daoine óga dul isteach sa chosaint shibhialta agus san F.C.A.

Ba mhaith liom fosta an tAire a mholadh as an méid atá á dhéanamh san Arm i dtaobh na teangan. Bhí áthas orm éisteacht leis an Ghinearál Mac Eoin ag rá go bhfuil sé iontach sásta leis an tslí in a bhfuil an tArm ag dul ar agaidh maidir leis an teanga. Bhí daoine anseo inniú ag magadh faoin teanga agus ag magadh faoin Arm agus ag rá go bhfuilimid ag caitheamh airgid ar an Arm gan tairbhe. Thig linn dul siar agus cuimhniú go raibh daoine ag magadh faoi lucht 1916 fosta. Comh maith leis sin, is fiú smaoineamh gur árachas atá san Arm. Sa chogadh deireanach bhí daoine ag rá go raibh an tArm beag ach bí an tArm ábalta, dá dtagadh taobh amháin den dá thaobh a bhí sa chogadh isteach anseo, an tír a chosaint go dtiocfadh an taobh eile chun cuidiú léi. Sin an rud a chaithfimid smaoineamh air anois, gur árachas atá san Arm agus go bhfuil sé in a árachas don tír uilig.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Happily on this occasion the House is considering the Estimate for the Department of Defence in circumstances in which all the pointers are to a satisfactory situation. The aim of our national Army should be to provide a kind of shop window display for our country and to bring home to every one of our own people who do not yet appreciate the fact, and particularly to people who visit this country from outside, that we have developed, over a very short period, a force which can be complimented in many respects.

I should like to pay tribute to the character and bearing of the members of the Defence Forces of all ranks. When people visit different countries they are impressed by the bearing and conduct of those they see in uniform. We may expect, therefore, the people who visit this country are affected by the bearing and conduct of those they see in uniform here. In the Garda Síochána and the National Army we are happy to have two forces which we can claim are a credit to this country, when one considers the difficulties under which both Forces were set up. Some of our people did not realise for a long time that these men were the servants of a new State which was practically free to exercise its own Government and its own institutions and represented a country which could look to a great future. I suppose that that was natural, when one considers that so many residents of this country had never seen anybody in uniform who did not represent forces of occupation and oppression.

There appears to be a growing recognition of our people's capacity to operate the services of a civilised community. In that respect, those who lead our Army have played no small part. In recent years, an opportunity was presented through the United Nations to the Government which preceded this Government to send some Irish officers to the Lebanon. That gave an opportunity to some of our Army officers to meet officers of other democratic countries. It is heartening that the Government were in agreement with that policy and that our officers brought credit to their country as a result of their service in that part of the world.

Nowadays there appears to be a growing difficulty arising out of attractions offered to men to take up vocations outside. There is a need to combat this trend by sympathetic attention. The emphasis throughout the world is rapidly changing to scientific armaments and a reduction in the importance of the infantryman. I contend that in this country the members of the Army have a rewarding future. The history of the Force is such as to inspire pride in the heart of any young man who serves his country. It was born of the glorious fight for independence and developed in the atmosphere of the establishment and maintenance of our democratic institutions.

Our present-day Army enjoys a position unsullied by an oppression of other peoples. It is unique in this respect in the world to-day. Countries that are to-day quite democratic in the conduct of their affairs and in their associations with their neighbours and less fortunate countries are bedevilled by unfortunate instances as has been instanced in the not too distant past. In this respect, any member of our State personnel can confidently raise his head in any part of the world in relation to our past.

I am gratified to note the improvement in the standard of our Army Jumping Team. On past Defence Estimates, I had occasion to refer with some concern to the fact that the standard of our Army Jumping Team seemed to be deteriorating and that it was a great loss to us that it was not meeting with the successes we desired. I hope that whatever advance has been made in recent times will continue.

We are not blessed with the number of Army Bands which one can hear in other countries. Our people look to the Army to provide musicians on very many occasions. I should like to see every encouragement given to the recruitment and training of suitable instrumentalists to replace those who are retiring.

We have reason to be proud of our officers, both senior and junior. I was horrified to learn that one question asked of a young aspirant to cadetship was his opinion on the Treaty controversy. That question may have been put in good faith. No doubt, all members of the Army should be familiar with the history of our country but a young boy who has just left school and who is asked this question by a board might well be excused if he felt his entire future hinged on the answer he gave to that question. I regard it as an unfair question to pose to a young lad in present times.

I realise that cadets are, let us hope, brought into the Forces completely on merit. No opportunity should be given to any aspirant to officer rank in the Army to think that he was not accepted because of some answer he gave to such a question. Whoever was responsible for the compilation of the questions was certainly not on the right lines in including such a question.

When the Taoiseach assumed office Deputies were gratified when he linked the names of Éamon de Valera and Michael Collins as the leaders of the movement for the creation of the State and responsible for the national advancement we now enjoy. The State has conferred every possible honour on Éamon de Valera but Michael Collins did not live to see the development of the infant State. Surely it is incumbent on us to revere the memory of the late Michael Collins? I am confident the people do and will revere his memory. There is just one blot on the situation. The Government persist in refusing permission to the Army to pay tribute once a year to his memory at Bealnablath. I again appeal to the Minister to reconsider the matter and, in the atmosphere of the speech made here by his Taoiseach—if those words are to be regarded as genuine and not hypocritical—to allow the Army to pay that annual tribute to the man who founded the Force.

There is another matter to which I must refer with still more regret. The Minister saw fit when he visited my constituency to make an intemperate speech during which he ascribed all kinds of base motives to people who may have certain views in relation to the language. As a member of the Government, the Minister for Defence is surely as concerned as any other member of the Government with all aspects of policy. His speech was detrimental to the interests of his Department. The reaction locally and, in fact, amongst those responsible for inviting him was serious. It sparked off a feeling of deep resentment. Even if people hold views which are not the same as those held by the Minister, they may hold them in good faith. It does not augur well that, on that occasion, he should have embarked on such an intemperate speech.

I shall conclude on the same line as I commenced by paying a tribute to the personnel of the permanent Army and also to those young men who, in times which are not as attractive to young men to give the attention to military affairs that they could so willingly and at such sacrifice give during an Emergency, are doing their bit in the ranks of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil.

Mr. Booth

I was rather disappointed that we still have not got any statement from the Minister as to the over-all rôle of the Defence Forces, with particular reference to the land and air aspects of those Forces. The Minister said this morning that the policy was to have such close co-ordination with the F.C.A. that at very short notice a considerable land force could be made available. Later in his speech he referred to the role of the Civil Defence Organisation which he appeared to visualise as being primarily concerned with protection against the effects of nuclear warfare.

I think we should face up to the point that it is difficult to plan policy for the Defence Forces, unless we have some conception of the sort of war or sort of hostilities we are envisaging. It seems at least highly unlikely that our Army will ever be involved in hostilities using only what are now known as conventional weapons.

The really important part of the Minister's speech in this regard was his stressing of the necessity of defending ourselves against the effects of nuclear explosions. If that is our main danger, I cannot see why at any date in the future we would need to raise any considerable number of men to serve in the land forces at all. I believe that the day has now gone when in this country there is any tactical or strategic significance in the defence of Europe.

It was quite different in the days of the last wear. Now with the inter-continental ballistic missile and supersonic aircraft, we are of no advantage to anyone, either as an ally of Great Britain or as a base against her. I am not at all sure, therefore, that we are wise in organising our Defence Forces in such a way as to be able to put 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 men into the field at comparatively short notice. Even if we were able to do that, I do not know what those men would be expected to do. I would hope, therefore, perhaps not today but at some time, we might have some statement from the Minister as to his conception of the general rôle of the Defence Forces.

I have excluded from this the role of the Naval Service because I think that is quite different, yet, to some extent, it comes under the same criticism. Its main duties at the moment appear to be fishery protection but to confine a naval service to fishery protection again appears to be rather unusual and rather hard to justify. If we are to have a Naval Service and if we are to justify such expenditure, I think we shall have to show that something, apart from fishery protection, is required. I personally cannot see what additional service is required, apart from fishery protection.

The size of the Naval Service which we could have at any time would preclude anything in the nature of engaging in naval warfare, that is, assuming that ordinary surface naval warfare is something which will ever happen again, which I greatly doubt. It might be said that a naval service would have some function as regards harbour protection but I do not think that could be sustained either. Again, it might be said that a naval service should be some protection against submarine warfare but certainly our corvettes are quite unsuitable for that rôle. The present development of submarines is such that, even with those submarines which are not powered by nuclear power, submarines would be able to outsail any one of our ships, even when submerged. The chances of our corvettes catching up on a submarine, even if they could find it, would be absolutely nil.

With the Naval Service organised as at present, I think we are wasting money to be training new personnel as cadets, as ordinary naval cadets as in the naval services of the Great Powers. I would hope that here again we could have a new assessment of what we require in this regard with a considerable saving of expenditure. Even the small corvettes we have cost a lot of money to maintain and run and the regular re-fits which are necessary, if they are to be kept seaworthy, are very expensive indeed and require the maintenance of a considerable shipyard and shore personnel. I hope, therefore, that we can have a reassessment of that service as soon as possible.

I should hope, too, that we would be able to face up to the decision that all that we require is fishery protection and that we should then proceed, as soon as possible, to dispose of the corvettes and replace them with smaller and faster surface craft which will be able to give better protection to our fishermen at a very much reduced cost to the taxpayer.

I am disturbed to find that we are still in possession of anti-aircraft artillery. That has no function whatever in any Army anywhere any more. I am not saying that purely as a matter of my own opinion. Anti-aircraft artillery simply cannot hit modern aircraft and never will be able to do so. The time was when it was possible. I know that we have spent—and I think very properly spent—in the past years a considerable amount of money on radar control for anti-aircraft artillery. There was some chance 10 or 15 years ago. There is now no chance of an anti-aircraft gun or even an anti-aircraft battery hitting anything in the supersonic range.

The Minister told us that some new type of medium anti-tank artillery has been purchased. I can see quite some point in such a purchase because anti-tank artillery is not restricted in its use to firing against tanks. High velocity armour-piercing shells might be very useful in any artillery action which might be undertaken in almost any circumstances.

Now, if the Minister will forgive me, I should like to come back to my old complaint about coastal defence artillery. When I was on holidays in Cork last year, I saw the report of the annual shoot of the coastal batteries in Cork. The target was towed across 2,000 yards from the guns. Quite a number of very near misses were reported and one or two direct hits. That seems to me to be a waste of time and money, because we can never hope that an enemy will be sufficiently foolish to cruise up and down within 2,000 yards of an artillery battery. That sort of thing does not happen.

Everybody knows this coastal artillery was necessary for harbour protection and ordinary harbour duties in time of war and emergency. To be perfectly frank, that does not make sense to me at all because we did extremely well in the port of Dublin, and even in the port of Dún Laoghaire without any coastal defences at all. So far as I know, we never had any there, even during the war years. There was a small battery of extremely ancient 18-pounders on the East Pier at one time but my recollection is that nobody ever knew what they were there for and they were used more as a saluting battery than anything else.

I have a horrible suspicion that they would have been more dangerous to the crew manning them, if they were fired, than to anybody on the other end because they were extremely ancient weapons. Even though the very heavy coastal defence guns are no longer exercised, they must involve considerable expenditure. When we find that even fixed sites for inter-continental ballistic missiles are now being abandoned as being hopelessly vulnerable to attack, the idea of our maintaining coastal defence artillery batteries seems to be entirely ludicrous. In an Army you must always be able to show the men who are serving that they are doing something intelligent and I cannot see how anybody in the coastal defence artillery can seriously consider he is serving a useful purpose.

Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the Army Bands. I agree with what he said but I should like to go a little further. I always feel it is a pity that these bands are known only by their numbers, the No. 1 Army Band, No. 2 and so on. That does not seem to me to be giving them a proper standing. It would be very much better if the authorities could think of some name for each band such as the Band of the Eastern Command, the Band of the Western Command, the Band of the Curragh Command, or whatever you may like, or even of attaching them to the Brigades. But to have a band which is not attached to a unit does not seem appropriate, nor does it give it a proper dignity.

As I did last year, I should like again to criticise the continued occupation of some old city barracks in Dublin. There is at least one modern barracks, Clancy Barracks, with some excellent accommodation. When you compare that with the very dingy and depressing circumstances of Griffith Barracks, Collins Barracks or even Cathal Brugha Barracks—which is not quite so bad—I feel the continued occupation of these old and rather prison-like barracks is very depressing for the troops. They are almost certainly costing an awful lot by way of maintenance. I hope that if possible one, or even more, of these old barracks will be closed down and no further maintenance undertaken on them so that any money voted in respect of barrack maintenance can be spent on barracks which are kept at least moderately full. It is very depressing to be one of a very small party in a very empty barracks. These old barracks involve heavy duties on the troops themselves and if we could have more troops in a lesser number of barracks, the duties would be much more evenly distributed.

Last year, I commented on the number of infantry battalions. I do not credit myself with being responsible for it, because I think it was obvious that the number would have to be reduced, but I am glad that the Minister has reduced the number of battalions by one. It was unfortunate that he selected the last battalion with which I myself served. I was sorry to see it go but there was every reason for that decision. It was the 7th Battalion and while I was sorry to see it go, the decision was perfectly correct.

Last year, I commented on the need for more battle training for the troops and I feel I should comment again on it. I still feel that their physique is not good enough. They are not being trained in modern battle technique, or being hardened up, and if I look at them individually or in a body marching from here to there on parade, I cannot feel they are really hardened troops ready for action. I think that is partly because there is not a sufficiently realistic approach to the whole question of what the Army is supposed to be preparing for. I would hope for more battle training, a greater hardening of the troops and less routine duty.

A good example of the bad effect of this lack of realism can be seen in the sentries on duty outside Leinster House. I do not want to be too general in my criticism. One sentry whom I saw on duty last night was behaving in a singularly soldier-like way and quite clearly he thought he was doing something important. He was very smart and very soldierly in his bearing. The previous day there was another sentry whom I noticed for a considerable time and for whom I have the greatest sympathy because I think he knew he was not doing any sort of job at all, just knocking off his two hours' duty and hoping and praying that the two hours would not be too slow in passing so that he could get back to the guard room for a rest.

To be perfectly frank, I do not know what those sentries are doing and why we should have sentries only from sunset on. I cannot see that there is any likelihood of greater danger after sunset than before it. If there were to be an attack, anyone with two eyes in his head could see that sentries would not be on duty until sunset. The sentry could not go into action anyway, unless he took shelter behind a couple of parked cars. He has no protection whatever. Consequently, I believe he is not there for defensive purposes and I wonder what on earth he is there for because he is not a ceremonial soldier. He is an ordinary soldier not on ceremonial duty or equipped for it and he has not got the uniform for it. Sometimes, I am sorry to say, he has not got the bearing, either.

I hope we can clear up small matters like that. If they are required for ceremonial purposes, they should be in the better uniforms and be drilled in a better fashion. I am not a great believer of ceremony of that kind and I feel they would be much better withdrawn out of sight. If, for defensive purposes, it is necessary or desirable to have a body of troops on immediate call for defence of the House in case of trouble, they should be kept out of sight in the guardroom and not be asked to parade up and down in the way they are called upon to do at the moment.

I was delighted to hear the Minister say that he was considering standardising the Army and the F.C.A. uniforms. For a long time, I have considered that that should be done. I believe it will do nothing but good. I can quite see that old stocks will have to be used but this differentiation between the Army and the F.C.A. personnel can do nothing but harm and I think it puts it into the heads of the F.C.A. that they are an inferior group. If they are to be integrated with the Army and be ready on a moment's call for calling up with the regular units, they should be dressed and equipped exactly as the Regular Army is. I hope some thought will be given to an appropriate uniform.

I am not at all happy with the design of the ordinary uniform of the Regular Army. The idea of having a closed-neck tunic is absolutely abhorrent to me. It is very unhealthy and an open-neck tunic or one which can be worn open at times is very much better. Whether what is known as the battledress form of tunic is preferable and whether the skirt of the tunic should hang outside the trousers is a question I leave to somebody else, but the idea of standardisation has been mooted and I urge the Minister to proceed along these lines as rapidly as possible.

One item of uniform that always irritated me is the forage cap. Very few people can wear it properly and I was never one of them. I tried it and I looked more foolish, perhaps, than usual. I was delighted to be able to get a peaked cap. I believe the forage cap is expensive because it takes an enormous amount of material and I think it should be abolished. There is a lot to be said for the Glengarry of the F.C.A. or else the ordinary beret which is much more serviceable and in which it is much easier to look smart.

I also want to congratulate and thank the Minister on having at last got round to the promotion of the Reserve Officers. These reserve lieutenants served for very many years and have at last achieved the third bar and I think everybody is delighted that action was taken.

Greater care could be exercised by officers commanding units to make sure their troops turn out well. I have seen soldiers walking around the city who were not a credit to the Army. They were exceptions but I was sorry to see them at all. Sometimes you see soldiers out wearing dirty leather, unpolished leather belts, both leather and brass not cleaned at all. Personally, I hate leather belts and even military police, I think, should be equipped with the web belt and web holster rather than leather belt and leather holster which they carry at the moment. The leather holster hangs awkwardly. The revolver carried in that holster is sometimes quite unsafe because of the tendency it has to fall, whereas in the web holster the revolver is held straight up on the belt. It looks smarter and is very much safer.

The Minister has been asked to give consideration to the question of payment of children's allowances to officers. The facts are well known to him and, I think, to most people, but it does seem to be a great pity and a source of grievance amongst the officers that while civil servants receive ordinary children's allowances, Army officers do not. There are all sorts of arguments backwards and forwards as to hospital treatment and other facilities which officers may or may not get for their families, but I feel this is a genuine grievance on the part of officers and I think it is bad that anything looking like a genuine grievance should remain. I would urge the Minister to give very serious consideration to this and see if he can persuade the Minister for Finance—if he needs persuasion—to allow payment of children's allowances to officers.

On the question of Army pay, as far as I can see, there has been no increase in the professional pay of legal officers. As one who was a legal officer for a short period myself, I feel sympathy for them——

Mr. K. Boland

There as been an increase.

Mr. Booth

I am delighted. Instead of making any criticism, may I congratulate and thank the Minister for having done that? I made a calculation on the Estimate which appeared to show he had not done it. I am delighted to find I was wrong. I suggest that consideration be given to the payment of marriage allowances to soldiers directly instead of to their wives. I know that has been considered before and I know that the wives would prefer it should not be done, but at the same time the amount of administrative expenses involved in paying these allowances to the wives as well as paying the soldiers themselves is quite excessive. So far as I know, no other Government servant is paid individually himself while his wife receives a marriage allowance separately.

I am sure this is a carry-over from the British Army days when British soldiers were actually serving in India, China or elsewhere and obviously it would be far too difficult for them to send money home to their wives from great distances. Our troops are not serving abroad. Most of them are living in married quarters or in their own houses adjacent to the barracks and there are no difficulties about soldiers giving housekeeping money to their wives. I do not see why soldiers should be treated differently from anybody else, especially when it obviously causes much more expense to public funds.

The total number employed on the civil side of the Department deserves comment. We have provided in the Estimate for a total of about 1,100 officers and we are providing also for the employment of 504 civil servants. That number of 504 civil servants at Army Headquarters excludes the Minister's personal staff so that anything I may say, I can say it with present company always excepted. To have 504 civil servants to deal with slightly over 1,000 officers and 8,000 men seems to me to be an enormous figure. I am sorry that there seems to be an increase this year of 17: 14 extra are employed on civil defence; there is a decrease of one in the accounts section and an increase of four on pensions administration. It seems to merit comment that at this time we have to employ even more people on the administration of pensions when many of the pensions are in respect of service which has long since terminated.

I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to any economies possible on the civil side and, in conclusion, I want to mention one matter which I also mentioned last year about which I feel as keenly now as I did then. I refer to the annual parade of the armed Forces and the Auxiliary Services through the city on Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday to me—and I think to most people—is primarily a feast of the Church and the anniversary of the Rising is celebrated on the nearest Sunday to the calendar anniversary. Granted that the Rising took place in the Easter period, it was not on Easter Sunday and I feel it is entirely improper that Easter Sunday morning, after religious observance, should be devoted to taking part in, or observing, an Army parade.

I know that nobody wants to spoil Easter Monday as a bank holiday and I do not want to persuade the Minister to employ the troops on that day either, but if the parade is regarded as desirable—and I think there is a lot to be said for it because it gives an opportunity for the people to see what the Army looks like—I would ask the Minister and those in authority to consider very seriously leaving Easter Sunday as a Sunday should be and especially as Easter Sunday should be. Do not let us have men under arms on a day such as that. I do not say that in any contentious way. Generally speaking, this Estimate is well justified but I hope we shall have a re-thinking and a restatement of the general rôle of the Defence Forces on land, on sea and in the air.

Pádraig Ó Dubhlaoich

Ba mhaith liom moladh a thabhairt don Aire agus don Roinn as an obair atá á dhéanamh sna scoileanna san Arm. Anuraidh chuaigh an chéad scata a raibh a gcúrsa críochnaithe acu amach as an scoil i Nás, agus is breá an rud é a chlos go bhfuil ag dul ar aghaidh go maith leo. Ceist faoin scoil sin—an féidir séipéal a chur ar fáil ann agus séiplíneach dá gcuid féin a thabhairt dóibh? Tá fhios agam go mbíonn Cúrsa Spioradálta ag na buachaillí agus go mbíonn ceachtanna acu sa Teagasc Críostaí agus go dtugann an sagart paróiste agus na sagairt eile gach cúnamh dóibh, ach sílim go mba mhaith an rud é dá mbeadh séiplíneach dá gcuid féin acu. Ceist eile faoi na scoileanna —cad chuige nach bhfuil ceannfort ar Scoil Póilíní an Airm? Tugtar ceannfort ar an gceannasaí, ach níl ann ach captaen, agus tá céim níos aoirde ná sin ag gach ceannasaí eile.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an socrú a rinne sé anuraidh le Coiste Gairm-Oideachais Chill Dara maidir leis an scoil ar an gCurrach, ach tá scoil náisiúnta ag teastáil leis. Tugadh freagra dom le déanaí go raibh ceist na scoile sin faoi scrúdú. Tá súil agam go mbeidh tairbhe ar an scrúdú sin agus go dtosófar ar an obair i mbliana mar tá gá géar le scoil nua ansin.

Cuidím leis na teachtaí a d'iarr ar an Aire liúntas leanaí a thabhairt do na hoifigigh. Tá fhios agam go bhfuil an cheist sin faoi scrúdú leis agus tá súil agam nach dtógfaidh sé rófhada go mbeidh réiteach sásúil againn. Cuidím leo-san freisin a d'iarr ar an Aire rud éigin a dhéanamh faoin éide atá ag an bhFórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. Tugadh geallúint cúpla bliain ó shoin go ndéanfaí rud éigin, ach níor deineadh. Tá súil agam go gcomhlíonfar an gheallúint anois.

There are some few matters which are perennial sources of complaint in my constituency. The first is promotion. There is a feeling that there are not enough outlets for men who join the Army. There is a growing feeling amongst the younger men at present that the Army is not a place in which they should spend the rest of their working lives. Many of them feel that they should get out now and try to do better for themselves outside because there is not enough scope for promotion for them in the Army. If the Minister could do something to shorten the period in which promotion falls due, that would be a step in the right direction. If there is dissatisfied personnel now the time will come when we shall have no Army at all.

With regard to the selection of cadets, this year in particular there have been many complaints. Nobody seems to know what the standard looked for is. School authorities who prepared boys specially for the examination this year and who considered the boys eminently well fitted for an Army career are at a loss to understand what exactly is required. Many of these boys were rejected. I should like the Minister to consider the matter because there is grave dissatisfaction, particularly this year, in relation to selection.

With regard to civilian employees on the Curragh, there is also a feeling of insecurity. They never know when they will be let go. I know that some men regard themselves as permanent but there is really no such thing as a permanent staff. I am told there is sufficient work to justify making these employees permanent. From what I see myself at the Curragh, and in Kildare, there is plenty of work. I understand Kildare Barracks cost £250,000. It is rapidly falling into disrepair. There are fewer than 100 men in it and the repair work being done is not sufficient to keep to in the condition in which it should be kept for occupation purposes. The unoccupied part of it is, as I said, falling into disrepair very rapidly. There is sufficient work there to keep men permanently employed on it.

It may be that there is not sufficient money allocated for upkeep. It is certainly not because of a shortage of work. The work is there. Those men who have this feeling of insecurity could be kept in continuous employment if that work were taken in hands. Any work that has to be done should be done throught the Corps of Engineers so that these men in civilian employment with the Army could have some guarantee of permanent employment.

Caoimhghín Ó Beoláin

Tá mé buíoch de na Teachtaí a labhair ar an Meastachán. Thug an chuid is mó díobh Cothrom na Féinne don Roinn sa méid a bhí le rá acu, ach tá daoine eile ann agus is é an nós atá acu locht a chur ar an Roinn gach uair is féidir leo ach is dócha gur cuma é sin.

Tá rud amháin a dúirt an Teachta Mac Eoin, an tAire a bhí ann romhamsa, agus tá mé an-bhuíoch de toisc go ndúirt sé é, is sin ag tagairt do cheist na Gaeilge san Arm, dúirt sé go raibh sé mar chomhartha ag an Arm i gcónaí bheith i bhfabhar na teanga. Is féidir liom a rá go bhfuil sé sin fíor. Scrúdaigh mé roinnt trodán a bhí ann beagnach ó thús an Airm agus bhí sé soiléir dom go raibh an-iarracht á dhéanamh san Arm i gcónaí chun úsáid na teanga a chur chun cinn ann, nach bhfuil aon rud á dhéanamh agamsa anois nach raibh in aigne na ndaoine a bhí i gceannas an Airm ó thosach báire. Ar ndóigh, ní raibh cúrsaí an Airm fabhrach an t-am san chun go n-éireodh leis an iarracht sin. Ní raibh an t-eolas ar an teanga ag na hoifigigh an t-am sin. Tá athrú scéil ann anois agus tá eolas ag na hoifigigh ar an teanga. Tá sin mar atá toisc go raibh sé mar choinníoll i gcónaí, sula dtógfaí fear óg isteach san Arm mar dhalta nó cadet, no mbeadh eolas maith aige ar an nGaeilge. Ó thosach báire is mar sin a bhí agus, mar sin ó tháinig mise isteach fuaireas amach go raibh Gaeilge mhaith ag an gcuid is mó de na hoifigigh agus, mar sin, bhíos in ann níos mó a dhéanamh, b'fhéidir, chun an teanga a chur chun cinn ná mar a bhí ar chumas na ndaoine a bhí ann cheana.

Mar sin, tá mé buíoch den Teachta MacEoin as ucht an méid a dúirt sé faoi sin. Ní maith liom aon chreidiúint speisialta a ghlacadh chugam féin de bharr an iarracht atá á dhéanamh. Tá fhios agam nach bhféadfaí é a dhéanamh murach an socrú a rinne na daoine a tháinig romham. Tá áthas orm an chreidiúint sin a thabhairt dóibh.

Ní dóigh liom, mar a dúras, go bhfuil aon rud speisialta á dheanamh agam. Níl á dhéanamh agam ach ag leanúint leis an iarracht náisiúnta a bhí ann i gcónaí maidir leis an teanga. Más rud é go bhfuil ag éirí liom go réasúnta maith—níl ag éirí thar barr— is de bharr a ndearnadh cheana féin é.

Dar ndóigh, bhí Teachta eile ann a thug fúm faoin méid atá á dhéanamh. Ní dóigh liom gur gá aon rud a rá faoi sin.

D'iarr an Teachta Mac Eochagáin orm na buíonta den Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil in áiteanna mar Ghaillimh a chur á dtraenáil in áiteanna i gConamara in ionad iad a chur go dtí Fionnabhar i gContae Dhún na nGall. Ba mhaith liom é sin a dhéanamh ach, de réir mar atá an scéal faoi láthair, níl aon áit oiriúnach againn i gConamara ná i nGaillimh, agus ní mór iad a chur go dtí Fionnabhar. Tá mé ag féachaint isteach sa scéal. Más féidir é, déanfaidh mé campaí a chur ar bun sna Gaeltachtaí i gcoitinne. Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil buíon eile den Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil seachas iad sin atá i gConamara gur mhaith leo a dtraenáil a dhéanamh sna h-áiteanna sin agus ba mhaith liom cuidiú leo ach tá deacrachtaí sa tslí. Tá súil agam go mbeidh ar ár gcumas na deacrachtaí a shárú.

Dúirt an Teachta céanna gur mhaith an rud é dá dtabharfaí breis pá do na saighdiúirí sa Chéad Chath toisc go ndéanann siad a gcuid dualgas trí Ghaeilge ar fad. Níor mhaith liom rud mar sin a dhéanamh. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart go mbeadh aon ghá leis. Níl aon seirbhís sa bhreis á tabhairt ag na daoine sin. Tá mé cinnte nach gceapann siad féin gur ceart breis pá a thabhairt dóibh toisc go labhrann siad a dteanga féin ag déanamh a gcuid dualgas dóibh.

Maidir le ceist eile ar thagair an Teachta céanna di, is é sin, feabhas a chur ar sheomraí codlata na bhfear, bionn aire á tabhairt don rud sin i gcónaí agus tá feabhas á chur i ndiaidh a chéile ar na seomraí codlata i gcoitinne ar fúd na tire. Ní féidir é sin a dheanamh i ngach áit ag an am céanna. Tá a lán déanta cheana féin agus déanfar a thuilleadh amach anseo.

Maidir le tithe cónaithe, tá aire á tabhairt dó sin freisin. Tá mórán áiteanna ar fud na tíre ina bhfuil tithe cónaithe nua ag teastáil. Mar is eol do Theachtaí, le blianta beaga anuas tógadh tithe i mBaile Atha Cliath, Áth Luain agus sa Churrach agus tá 24 theach á dtógáil i gCorcaigh faoi láthair. Nuair a bheidh siad sin críochnaithe, tosófar ar scéim tithe in áit éigin eile. Ní féidir liom a rá fós pé acu i nGaillimh, Luimneach nó cad é an áit eile a dtosófar leis an gcéad scéim eile. Is féidir leis na Teachtaí a bhfuil suim acu sa cheist a bheith cinnte nuair a chríochnófar an scéim atá ar siúl faoi láthair go dtosófar ar scéim eile agus go leanfar ar aghaidh mar sin go dtí go mbeidh go leor, nó beagnach go leor, tithe ar fáil i ngach áit a bhfuil an tArm suite ann.

D'iarr an Teachta Ó Fachtna orm an aois is isle inar féidir le duine dul isteach san Arm a laghdú go 16 bliana. Ag caint dó ar an gceist sin thug sé féin cuid mhaith de na hargóintí ina choinne is é sin, go bhfuil daoine mar sin ró-óg chun bheith ag láimhseáil arm, agus argóintí mar sin. Ba mhaith liom, áfach, a chur i gcuimhne don Teachta go dtógtar buachaillí óga mar phrintisigh isteach sa Scoil Printiseachta i Nás na Rí, agus tógtar isteach buachaillí óga san Aer-Chór i mBaile Uí Dhónaill. Tugtar traenáil an-mhaith do na buachaillí óga ansin agus nuair a théann siad amach as an Arm ina dhiaid sin bíonn ceird an-mhaith acu. B'fhéidir go mbeidh ar ár gcumas an scéim sin a leathanú tar éis tamaill agus níos mó daoine óga a thógáil isteach faoi na scéimeana sin. Bíonn go leor iarrthóirí ann i gcónaí agus b'fhéidir go mbeidh ar ár gcumas iad a leathnú as seo amach. Maraon leis sin tógtar buachaillí isteach chun traenáil do na bannaí ceol agus tugtar traenáil an-mhaith dóibh. Ag tagairt don cheist sin, na bannaí ceol, rinne duine eile tagairt dó freisin. Ní cuimhin liom cé hé, ach dúirt sé nach maith an rud é Uimhir a haon, Uimhir a dó, Uimhir a trí, agus Uimhir a ceathair a bheith mar ainmneacha ar na bannaí ceoil agus dúirt sé gur ceart teideal de chinéal eile do chur orthu. Is iad na téarmaí cearta Banna Ceoil an Iarthair, Banna Ceoil an Deiscirt, Banna Ceoil an Churragh, agus mar sin, agus ní úsáidtear an teideal Uimhir a haon, Uimhir a dó, Uimhir a trí agus Uimhir a ceathar de ghnáth.

Rinne an Teachta Ó Fachtna tagairt don chineál éide a bhíonn le caitheamh ag muintir an Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. Nuair a labhair mé ag tabhairt isteach an Mheastacháin dúirt mé go raibh muid ag smaoineamh faoi láthair ar éide chaighdeánach a thabhairt isteach do na Buan-Óglaigh agus don Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. Is é mo thuairim féin go bhfuil an t-am foirstineach chun tús a chur leis sin toisc an cónasc atá idir na Buan-Óglaigh agus an Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, ach tá deacrachtaí ansin freisin. Caithfimid an méid éide atá ar láimh againn anois a úsáid. Sin ceist atá á scrúdú againn, ach is dóigh liom go mbeidh sé ar ar gcumas é a réiteach.

Bhí ceist eile a d'árdaigh an Teachta Ó Fachtna, go raibh muintir an Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil ag fanacht rófhada le hárdú céime. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil sé sin fíor, ach má tá sé fíor is dócha go mbeidh ar ár gcumas é a cheartú.

Dúirt an Teachta Ó Dubhlaoich gur ceart séipéal a bhunú i Nás na Rí. Is dócha gur mhaith an rud é sin, ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil mórán mí-cheart nuair atá orthu freastal ar dhualgais an chreidimh sa séipéal sa bhaile mór, ach b'fhéidir go mbeimid in ann rud éigin a dhéanamh. Níl an scoil sin ar siúl ach le ceithre bliana anuas agus ní féidir linn gach rud ba mhaith linn a bheith ann ó thosach.

Thagair an Teachta sin freisin do scoil náisiúnta nua a thógáil do na cailíní sa Churrach. Tá beartaithe againn sin a dhéanamh agus ní dóigh liom go mbeidh sé rófhada go mbeimid ag tosú ar an obair. Maidir leis na hoibreacha sibhialta sa Churrach is rud deacair é, ach caithfidh na daoine atá i gcionn na hoibre sin an scéim a leathnú amach ar feadh na bliana ar fad. Mura ndéantar sin bheadh níos mó daoine ag cailleadh obair. Nuair a chuirtear críoch le hobair áirithe ní féidir a shocrú i gcónaí go mbeidh obair eile ag tosú díreach ina dhiaidh sin. Déanaimid gach iarracht obair shibhialta a chur ar fáil do na daoine seo, ach ní féidir iad go léir a choiméad ar siúl an t-am ar fad.

Rinne cuid de na Teachtaí tagairt don Scoil Eachaíochta agus is maith liom a fheiceáil go bhfuil go leor daoine i bhfabhar leanúint leis an scoil sin, agus go bhfuil meas ar an bhfoireann Eachaíochta. Ní dóigh liom go raibh aon rud eile le rá ag na Teachtaí a labhair i nGaeilge nach ndearna mé tagairt dó.

First of all I thank the Deputies who spoke on this Estimate for their approach to it. I consider their general approach to have been very fair, though critical in places, and, of course, there are certain Deputies who make a habit of attacking the Army and everything about it. I suppose we cannot expect anything better from them but, generally speaking, the approach was reasonably fair. I would particularly like to thank my predecessor, Deputy MacEoin, for his concluding remarks in regard to the modest effort that is being made at present to promote the use of the national language in the Defence Forces. He made one statement which I think is very true and I am glad he made it because it gives me the opportunity of endorsing it. I think the gist of what he said was that an effort to expand the use of Irish has always been the hallmark of the Defence Forces and I can say, from a study of old files, that I can definitely endorse that.

I do not think anything is being attempted at present that was not in the minds of the people in control of the Army at the outset. In fact, I would say that the ideas that prevailed as far back as 1923 were even more ambitious than the present ideas. Attempts have been made continuously since then to expand the use of Irish and what is going on now is no more than the obvious and logical development of what has been the policy from the outset. Previous attempts may not have been so successful, the obvious reason being that the teaching of the language has not been in progress for a sufficiently long time and, therefore, the actual knowledge of Irish in the Defence Forces was not sufficiently widespread to allow of the success desired.

The position is different now, due largely to the foresight of my predecessors in making a knowledge of Irish a condition for the recruitment of cadets, and it is now possible to make some advance. I want particularly to thank Deputy MacEoin for his remarks in that regard. There is nothing extraordinary at all going on in the Army. What is happening is the development of the position that has always been there. I am glad to say it is being received enthusiastically by the Army and is progressing very favourably.

Deputy MacEoin referred to the scheme for the integration of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil with the Army. The progress of that scheme appears to be satisfactory. The military authorities believe that the F.C.A. will be able to undertake satisfactorily the new rôle being allotted to them and that the scheme will be a success. Some progress has already been made in forming the new units of the F.C.A. and in training them in the new weapons and techniques required.

The question was raised as to whether there are sufficient officers available to carry out this training of the F.C.A. and whether the expenses provided for them are sufficient. I can only say that the appointments with the F.C.A. are the most popular ones in the Army. In the scheme of reorganisation, we were able to allocate officers to the F.C.A. without having any overall increase in the peacetime establishment. Certainly the scheme is not suffering from any lack of suitable training officers at present and I would hope it will not in the future.

There were some criticisms of the system of cadetships. I did not understand some of them. If any Deputy has a particular point he would like to bring to my notice, I shall be only too glad to look into it. One statement made by Deputy O'Sullivan surprised me very much. He stated that a certain question, which he considered an unfair one, was put to candidates. That is the first I heard of that question. Certainly, I would think myself it was a question that should not have been asked. A person's opinions on such a matter are purely his own concern. I do not know if the question was asked—Deputy O'Sullivan may have been misinformed and I do not know the source of his information; certainly it was a source not available to me—but if it was asked, I hope that similar questions will not be asked in future.

Deputy Dooley complained generally about the standard set for cadetships. I do not know that there is any general complaint in that regard. I suppose it is only natural that any Minister for Defence will get representations that certain boys were turned down who appeared to be eminently suitable. The system laid down for choosing cadets is that a board of Army officers nominated by the Chief of Staff interview the applicants who have already satisfied certain educational and physical requirements. The board recommend the applicants considered to be most suitable.

In this connection also, some people seem to think that the reservation of four cadetships for suitable applicants who also have some experience of equitation is likely to result in these vacancies being reserved for people of a certain class. From that they tried to draw the analogy that we here were attempting to establish an officer corps on the same lines as the imperial armies of Great Britain and Prussia. I do not think that tendency would ever develop here. Our traditions of military leadership are completely different. In those countries, the traditional military leadership has come from a certain stratum of society. Here, the tradition is, if anything, the opposite. The leaders of the Army which brought us the measure of independence we have were drawn from the ordinary people of all classes.

It is only natural then that in selecting material for officers of the Army, we should bear our own traditions in mind and model the officer corps of the Army on the people who led the struggle for independence. I should be very surprised indeed to hear it suggested that an opposite trend was being followed here. I am quite sure that trend will not develop and that we will bear our own distinctive traditions in mind in that regard.

When referring to the four vacancies reserved for candidates likely to be suitable for the equitation team, I should like to point out that it is not insisted upon that these people should be expert horsemen already, but that they should be people who have had contact with equitation and who have a liking for it. It is also essential that they should be suitable officer material. In other words, they are not recruited solely as riders but also as officers of the Defence Forces. Therefore, if by any chance they do not make the grade as members of the equitation team or when they come to the end of their careers, they will still be officers of the Defence Forces and can be given other duties.

Mr. N.T. Lemass

Could I ask the Minister one question with reference to equitation, which is a very important industry here? Would the Minister make available to the civilian equestrian Olympic team facilities in Army barracks? The present facilities they have are most inconvenient.

Mr. K. Boland

I think the civilian Olympic team have solved their problems in that regard. The facilities available in McKee Barracks are not all that good and are fully taken up with the training of our own team. I am afraid it is unlikely that it will be possible to do anything like that. The first requirement is to train our own team. As a number of Deputies have already pointed out, a certain amount of success has already been achieved in that regard. I am glad some Deputies have referred to the fact that the team is beginning to show results.

Deputy MacEoin seemed to disagree with me when I said we were trying to get some ready-made horses for the international jumping team. He said it would be better to buy in young horses and train them up with the men. I agree with that. However, the fact was that the school had reached a fairly low ebb so far as suitable horses were concerned, and it was purely as an interim measure, in order to bring some needed improvement, that that policy of trying to get ready-made jumpers was adopted. We are also proceeding with the policy of buying young horses which can be trained up with the team.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10th May, 1960.