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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 11—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

I am sorry the Taoiseach is leaving the House because when I am about to say unkind things about a person, I prefer to say them to his face. The Taoiseach holds a high office in this country, a high office which has duties and responsibilities as well as privileges and it is therefore very much to be regretted that he has chosen in that office, in recent months in particular, to adopt a practice which degrades his office very much indeed. I am quite prepared to admit that anyone can make a mistake from time to time and that a person may make a statement believing it to be true and later discover that it was not in accordance with the facts, but a person in the office of Taoiseach should take steps before making any such statement to ensure that what he is about to state bears a resemblance to the truth and it is not for him, without degrading his office, to make statements recklessly without taking adequate steps and without believing in the truth of what he puts forward.

I want to relate that to the debate on this Budget and to our economic and financial situation. First, may I refer to the speech made by the Taoiseach on the Vote on Account on 10th March last? He told us and, through the House and the newspapers, the people, that this Government of which he is the leader were facing a very difficult budgetary situation. I refuse to believe that the Minister for Finance was at that time concealing from the Taoiseach and from the Government the extraordinary buoyancy of the revenue for reasons to which I shall refer later. I refuse to believe that the Minister for Finance had not taken the Taoiseach into his confidence and that the Taoiseach was not, on 10th March, in possession of as much information as the Minister himself. But I do believe that statement was made by the Taoiseach at that time for the purpose of making the people's blood run cold, for the purpose of making them apprehensive about the additional burdens that might be placed on them in the Budget and for the purpose of creating a Party atmosphere in which there would be, so to speak, a sigh of relief when the Budget was produced. The fact and the truth, as I shall show later, is that far from there being a difficult budgetary situation, in the words of the Taoiseach himself in 1955, any Minister for Finance who knew his job could have made this far the easiest budgetary problem there was to handle at any time during the past 20 years.

The manner in which the Taoiseach spoke on that date for purely Party purposes was degrading to his office and does not do our national reputa-he confidently proclaimed to the public that if only he were given the power, over a period of five years, there would be another 100,000 jobs went even further to make it clear tion or confidence in the country any good. The Taoiseach also made a speech in 1955 about which certain Deputies on this side of the House have already spoken, a speech in which for our people. In that speech, he that not alone were there to be 100,000 new jobs at the end of five years but that there were to be 20,000 a year from the very first year they started. The unfortunate people up and down the country who themselves were looking for jobs and the wives of men looking for jobs so as to earn a living in their own country were deceived and beguiled by that most specific promise by the Taoiseach into giving him and his Party votes and support at the general election of 1957.

The other day the Taoiseach had the hardihood and the disgrace of coming to this House denying that he had ever said any such thing. I do not blame him for not putting that policy into effect. I always knew from the first moment it was promised that it was just nonsense, that he was completely misconceiving the economic position because he was trying to suggest a policy based on the multiplier theory for this country, a policy which might, perhaps, even with some inflation, have an effect on a closed economy but a policy which was nonsense so far as our circumstances here were concerned.

I do not blame him for not putting it into effect but I do blame him for not having the honour and manliness now to come out and say that the speech he made at that time was misconceived and that he is now satisfied that the position was entirely different and that the solution he then adumbrated was indeed no solution at all. I think other members of the Government are to be congratulated on the fact that they have dissuaded him from that mad-cap scheme which undoubtedly would only have plunged us into far greater difficulties, but to come out openly as he did last week and to say he never said any such thing, gambling and hoping that nobody on this side of the House would have his quotation to hand is something that does him no honour and, on the contrary, does our own country when he is the Leader of the Government great discredit.

That is not the only occasion on which he has done that in recent weeks. He did it also in speaking on the Trade Agreement when he said nobody who had any recent connection with Fiann Fáil ever suggested that the British market had gone forever. Let me put very quietly and briefly on the record that Mr. de Valera himself said that on 9th August, 1933, in this House, as reported in Volume 49, column 1610, and that he said it again in Ennis on 27th August, 1933, so that the suggestion by the Taoiseach that the only person who had ever said that was Mr. Connolly, then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, is untrue, and if the Taoiseach did not know it was untrue when he was making the suggestion, he was speaking recklessly and without the care which he should give his utterances as a person holding his office.

Finally, may I say in relation to his contribution to this debate, the brazen attack he made on the Central Statistics Office is something that degrades beyond question. I want to read just one quotation from Volume 181, column 464. The Taoiseach states:—

If it means all the people in the country who could be induced, under any circumstances, to take work for wages, even married women or relatives assisting farmers on their farms, then it is a different picture altogether and, in my view, a completely wrong type of concept to insert into our statistical returns.

The Taoiseach has the Central Statistics Office to his hand. It is but a matter of a moment for him to get someone, if he does not already understand, which I doubt, to explain to him the manner in which these returns are compiled. For him to cast doubts of that sort and to criticise in the manner in which he did the figures that are published is something altogether degrading and, in my opinion, utterly disgraceful.

There are four events which have occurred in the passage of the last few months all related to our economic situation. There are four cases in which the Taoiseach has chosen Party advantage, first of all, and has chosen Party advantage in a way that shows clearly he was prepared "to chance his arm" in the hope that he would "get away with it." He was prepared to "chance his arm" and hope that no one on this side of the House would have the relevant information to hand to contradict him and show he was wrong. That kind of gambling is not something of which anyone could be proud in the Head of a Government.

When the Minister for Finance introduced his Budget this year he circulated, as is usual, and I thank him for the courtesy, a copy of that Budget speech. We had an opportunity of reading it while the Minister was delivering it. As I read, I was annoyed at the lecture he saw fit to give the Opposition towards the end. I have read that many times since and, each time, I get more annoyed still. The arrogance behind the view that nothing must be criticised because criticism will do damage to the "baby in my arms" is something which must be heard and read to be believed.

This is a particular type of political blackmail. The Minister deliberately tried in that statement to suggest to us and to the country that anybody who criticised was guilty of national sabotage and was guilty of damaging the economic fabric of the country. That is a type of political blackmail which must be resisted because the next step to that is towards the secret police type of State such as they have in Russia.

In so far as I am able, I shall put on the records of this House an analysis of our economic position at the moment, stressing both the bad and the good points. I will not be deterred from doing that by any political threat the Minister may have made in the final paragraphs of his Budget speech. The issue is not, as Deputy Corish rightly said, whether we are better off than the Chinese, the Lascars or the inhabitants of central Africa. The issue is not, as the Taoiseach suggested in the worst possible taste, whether we have a "mark on our foreheads" entitling us to a better standard of living. The issue is a very simple one in relation to our economic affairs. The issue is whether we are making sufficient progress both absolutely and relatively in relation to other countries. We are lucky in that we have been able to achieve in the last hundred years some of the benefits and some of the fruits of the industrial revolution—benefits and fruits which were denied, if you like, to the Chinese coolies irrespective of their ancient civilisation.

There has been throughout the western world very substantial progress as a result of the industrial revolution. There has been a substantial increase in the standard of living in Ireland as in other Western European countries. There has been a substantial increase since we set up our own institutions of State 40 years ago. The issue is not whether or not there has been an increase. The issue is whether that increase has been adequate and sufficient to ensure that we have made the material progress to which we are entitled having regard to the inventions and skill available to us in this modern machine age and having regard to whether or not we have been able to make relatively sufficient progress to keep pace, at least, with our neighbours. If we are not able to make relatively sufficient progress to keep pace with our neighbours then, above all else, the drain of emigration will continue.

That is the real issue. It is not a question, as the Minister tried to suggest, of people alleging we have not made progress down through the years. We have made some progress. The question is have we made enough progress and are we progressing now in the right direction? Are we ensuring that our progress now is sufficient to enable us to keep pace, at least, with other countries which are making quite substantial progress at the present time. If we do not keep pace we shall fall further and further behind in the economic race.

The Minister must remember that it was not because of anything said on this side of the House that the term "undeveloped country" came into current circulation as being applied to us. It was the Government that decided—rightly and correctly decided—when consideration of the Common Market and the European Free Trade Area arose that we were an undeveloped country and should, therefore, obtain certain concessions from those organisations. The issue is the relative progress and the rate of progress in relation to our economic circumstances. We are entitled on this side of the House not merely to ask is the rate of progress adequate, but we are also entitled to ask is the rate of progress such as the present Government promised it would be when they sought the suffrage of the people in 1957? Is the rate of progress under their policies such that they have vindicated the promises they gave then to the people? These are completely different issues from those the Minister tried to put across in his Budget speech.

I agree with him when he says there has been progress made under all Governments. Of course, that is true. Again, it is a question of the rate of progress. In relation to that, let me say that one of the fundamental difficulties with which the country and the Government—not just the Govern- the early part of 1956 was that we ment alone—were faced in 1955 and were trying to make too great progress too quickly. We were trying to do too much too quickly. It was because we were trying to do too much too quickly that it was necessary for me slightly to put on the brake and the situation then would have required only a very slight application of the brake were it not for the fact that international terms of trade suddenly started to turn badly against this country. Again, there, it was a question of the rate of progress and the relative progress of our country compared with other countries. Our difficulty was that we were trying to do too much too quickly. Anyone who looks back now on what occurred in those days must see, without question, the manner in which certain social investment in particular reached its peak merely because we were trying to do, all at once, too much too quickly.

The Budget the Minister introduced was the third Budget the Fianna Fáil Government has brought in so far this year. The first Budget was that by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs when he increased postage charges, increased the charges for telegrams from 2/6d. to 3/- and increased the charges for Press telegrams. One does not see the other side of the picture in relation to extractions from the people in this Budget No. 3, but they are there just the same. The second Budget introduced by the Fianna Fáil Government was some fortnight or three weeks before the Minister's formal Budget speech on the 27th April. That was when the Government decreed and directed that some £950,000 extra would be paid by consumers through an increase of 3d. per Ib. on butter for the purpose of giving an additional subvention in relation to milk. Again, although the Minister has taken credit in his Budget speech for the improvements given to dairy farmers, he has not put on the other side of the picture the amount that has to be included as being extracted from the pockets of the consumers. I would not have made any reference to this Budget as Budget No. 2 if the Minister had not decided to derive benefit from one side of the transaction without at the same time admitting there was another debit side to it.

This Budget No. 3 was announced at a time when, in relation to agriculture in particular, charges were rising steeply. In 1956-57 the amount collected from rates per head of the population was £6 15s. 11d. In 1959-60 the amount has risen to £7 6s. 6d.— 10/7d. in three years. I can see from the Tables the Minister has circulated that in the coming year there will again be a substantial increase. The Tables suggest a certain increase as against the Book of Estimates, which makes it appear that there will be an increase of some seven per cent. Without the behind-the-scenes information I am not in any position to reconcile the Book of Estimates seven per cent. and the Economic Tables three per cent. No doubt there is some explanation of that, but whatever way one takes it, one can be sure of this: that it would appear that in 1960-61 more is being collected per head of the population in rates—more by about 15/- per head—than in the year 1956-57. That, too, is another charge that does not appear in the Budget Statement or in the Tables circulated at the time of the Budget.

I had rather hoped that when the Minister was making his Budget Statement he would have had something to tell us about the Report of the Income Tax Commission. We have had already two Reports from that Commission. As everyone is aware, the Report which dealt with P.A.Y.E. was discussed in this House some six months ago. At that time I suggested it was utterly wrong for the Commission to have brought in that recommendation without giving some indication that they had considered the main and larger problem of income tax as a whole. The Minister did not suggest then that they had done any such thing. I heard some suggestion at a later stage that they had given consideration to the wider and more general application. In fact, I heard suggestions, too, that reports had been given to the Minister in that light. I do not know whether that is true or not, but I would think we were entitled to receive from the Minister during his Budget Speech some indication of the progress made in relation to the work of that Commission, whether he had received any further report from them or had any news as to how they were proceeding with the main task to which they were to address themselves.

During the course of the last month also a second progress report has been issued by the Department of Finance on the movement along the White Paper. There is not very much new in that progress report. This is merely the publication of the progress reports which for many years past came to the Taoiseach every month showing what had been done in every Department. All that is happening now is that the Minister for Finance or the Government—I do not know which— have decided that they shall be published. It is only bringing out into the light of day the progress reports always made available to any Taoiseach, as far as I am aware, and certainly to every Taoiseach in recent years. If the intention of the publication of that report is to ensure that there will be confidence in the country, as apart from confidence in the Government, may I suggest that that confidence would be far better created by the Minister and his colleagues coming out flatly and honourably admitting that the promises they made in 1956-57 were entirely without foundation and that they now find they were mistaken when making those speeches at that time?

The Minister for Finance touched in his Budget Statement on the problem of the Civil Service. In his Budget Statement of 1957 he gave us an undertaking that he would deal with the problem of the Civil Service as one of the greatest urgency. I have not yet got the figures for the Civil Service census for the 1st January, 1960. As far as I know, they are not available. The last figures available gave us the figures in respect of the Civil Service census on the 1st January, 1959. As a result of that we find that there were on the 1st January, 1959, more civil servants than on the 1st January, 1957, notwithstanding the Minister's undertaking to this House in the Budget of 1957. The total on the 1st January, 1957, was 30,723 and the total on the 1st January, 1959, was 28,039. The method of taking the census varied, the official wording saying that 2,700 were omitted from the 1959 census. "Not less than 2,700" is the exact wording. I have given the Minister the benefit of any excess there may be. Adding that 2,700, in fact, it works out, by the same method of taking the census, that there were more civil servants on the 1st January, 1959, than on the 1st January, 1957.

One thing that is desirable is that there has been some improvement, some decrease in the number of part-time civil servants, and that the balancing factor has been in whole-time civil servants. The proper way of dealing with the matter, of course, would be to cut down the total numbers; yet, at the same time, it is satisfactory to note that there has been a decrease in part-time employment. I might add that when the 1960 census comes along, we shall have to consider it, not merely absolutely in relation to the number of civil servants who were there at 1st January, 1959, added to those who have been taken off the census roll, but also in relation to the number of those who went out during 1959 to Gaeltarra Éireann and ceased to be counted as civil servants. There were not very many of them—some 27—by which the appropriate figures require to be adjusted.

As I said a few minutes ago, the Minister for Finance, when he came to approach this Budget, came to approach the simplest Budget ever, if he had done his job. Last year, I expressed grave doubts as to whether he would get £2,500,000 over-estimation, as it was described as that at first. Subsequently it transpired that he was not taking £2,500,000 in overestimation but was taking £2,500,000 errors of estimation, which included not merely under-expenditure but also under-estimation of revenue—buoyancy of revenue. Even then it was doubtful to me whether he would get that £2,500,000, allowing for under-expenditure on the one hand and buoyancy of revenue on the other. However, he did get it, and I am glad he got it because it will undoubtedly help the country, but the manner in which he got it is something to which he made no advertence whatever in his Budget Statement.

Anybody who studies the returns of revenue week by week over the last financial year must have it driven home to him, clearly and categorically beyond question, that the buoyancy in revenue arose because of the injection into the economy of the seventh round of wages. I think the Minister would agree at once that when he was framing his Budget last year, he did not frame it in any belief that that round of wage increases would be paid. I think he would also agree at once that when we were speaking on the Budget last year, we were not basing our estimates on there being an injection of the size and nature that was injected as a result of the seventh round of wage increases.

It would be a useless exercise to try to guess—it would not be anything more than that—whether if there were not the seventh round of wages, revenue would have been as buoyant as it was. My own view is quite clearly and categorically that it would not, and one would have a very different picture at the end of last year, and for the forecast for this year, if we had not got that type of increased money in circulation, a great deal of which found its way into the Exchequer.

The Minister, of course, in balancing, as he terms it, his Budget last year, and in balancing it this year, is taking moneys that belonged to capital account and transferring them to current account, and is taking expenditure that belongs to current account and transferring it to capital account. That is a bad thing to do and, of course, it does very definitely mar the claim of balancing which the Minister makes. I want to put another point of view in relation to that. I want to put it to the Minister that to suggest that the Budget is balanced in its present form, or was balanced last year in that form, is nonsense. We have not had a balanced Budget in this country for years and years, that is, in the way in which "balanced" used to be known.

I do not think it makes much difference these days whether expenditure is above or below the line. Whether things are put in by way of voted capital services or by way of below the line issues does not make very much difference. What does make the difference is the type of productive development on which the money is spent, and I think that we would be approaching our problems in a more realistic way if we did not try to pretend that we were balancing out, and if we made up our minds that what we wanted to do in any particular year was to arrive at the proportion of moneys we wished to take from current consumption for the purposes of capital investment in the future.

I do not mean this for the Minister's Government alone; I am thinking back and thinking forward at the same time. We should do that with our eyes open, looking at the economic situation of the day, rather than trying to make a make-believe case that because certain things had been put under the line, they were genuinely capital, or because certain things were put in the current Book of Estimates, they were really current. We have got ourselves into far too rigid a position because what we ought to do is utilise the Budget very much more as an economic weapon, and to do that we must get away from the rigidity that there has been.

I mentioned a second ago that the Minister had transferred certain revenue formerly treated as capital to current purposes, and the main one he has done that with is the levies. I made it clear beyond question, and it was so inserted by me in a section of the Central Fund Act of 1956, that the proceeds of the levies were to be utilised for the purpose of providing capital for additional capital works and additional capital developments that could not otherwise be sustained. The Minister concealed that and took the proceeds of the levies for current budgetary purposes. He did that much openly but he did something else secretly that is not fully realised and appreciated. While he transferred the levies openly from capital account to current account, he also made a great ballyhoo of remitting certain levies, as he had done this year, but down through the years he has neglected to tell us, and show to us, that the levies remitted were in part—in a very great part—substituted again by customs duties.

For example, in 1957/58, the amount collected from the levies was £2,490,000. In the same year, the amount collected from customs duties, imposed in lieu of levies removed, was £692,000, and the total of the levies and customs duties in lieu of levies collected that year was £3,182,000. In 1958-59, the amount of levy collected was £1,788,000. The amount of customs duty collected by duties placed on goods instead of the levies was £1,535,000—a total of levy and quasi-levy of £3,323,000. In 1959-60, the amount of levy collected was £1,586,000. The amount of customs duty collected in respect of those duties that were put on by the Government in substitution for levies was £1,855,000, making a total of £3,441,000.

Does anyone realise that this Government, who came into power by persuading shopkeepers in many parts of Ireland, directly and by implication, that they would abolish the levies, did in 1959-60, three years after they achieved office by that promise, collect £3,441,000? I have not got to my hand at the moment the amount collected by me by levy in the first year of 1956-57, but, offhand, I would say it was £4,250,000. Did any member of Fianna Fáil believe when they were going to the people in 1957 that three years after they attained office, they would be collecting out of the pockets of the people £3,441,000 by the very levies which many of them described as being totally unnecessary and unduly harsh on the community, which many of them said should never have been imposed and which they promised they would abolish and wipe out immediately they got into the seat of office?

For the current year, 1960-61, the original estimate by the Revenue Commissioners of levies at the existing rate was £1,675,000. There has been £555,000 remitted in the Budget, leaving a net figure to be collected of £1,120,000. If I add to that the customs duty equivalent to last year's, namely, £1,855,000, I get the figure £2,975,000, which the Minister in 1960-61 will collect out of the pockets of the people in levy and quasi-levy. But that is not all, because in the documents he circulated last week showing the remission of certain levies, he made it clear that other customs duties were being imposed instead of them. It is fair to say that there will be collected this year, by Fianna Fáil, £3,250,000 by levies and by the duties they substituted, dishonestly, for levies, in that manner. Some of those who went to the people in 1957 promising that the levies were unnecessary and would be removed had better examine their consciences to decide whether or not they were justified in the promises they then made.

Things are going well.

If Deputy Burke has a conscience that is as soft as that, he may find, when he goes where we all have to go some day, that his judgment is not the one that will be accepted.

In connection with excise, it is, of course, impossible to arrive at any real comparison of customs and excise in the past few years without knowing the situation behind the scenes. The emergence of hydrocarbon light oil from Whitegate Oil Refinery has meant that the duty which used to be collected as customs is now collected under excise and, therefore, one cannot compare separately the returns for customs and excise absolutely with the returns for previous years. There are, however, one or two items in respect of which I should like to hear some explanation from the Minister.

I notice that in relation to betting, there was a 10 per cent. drop last year. I should have thought that the factors that contributed to buoyancy of revenue in other respects would also have contributed to buoyancy in respect of revenue from that item but I am surprised that there has been a decrease from £986,000 in the year ended 31st March, 1959 to £887,000 in the year ended 31st March, 1960.

There were many days lost owing to the weather last year.

I thought there were also many days lost the previous year.

Not as many.

The Deputy may be a better expert on racing than I am, but, with all respect to the Deputy, I would rather like to hear that explanation, if that be the explanation, coming officially from the Minister.

I notice also that there is a very heavy increase in the revenue from tyres, a progressively steady increase. It is an increase which is matched at the same time by a very heavy increase in motor car duties. I do not mean vehicles licence duties but motor car customs duties. I am aware that in relation to motor car duties, one of the reasons for the increase is that the Minister performed one of those fraudulent acts to which I have referred about levies. He withdrew the levy and imposed an additional customs duty but I think that occurred in 1957-58.

I am rather wondering whether, first, in relation to tyres, the increase in exise duty from £337,000 in 1959 to £393,000 in 1960, on the excise side, and the increase on the customs side in relation to motor cars, parts and accessories from £2,018,000 in 1959 to £2,422,000 in 1960—and I refer in each case to the year ending 31st March—is something that is accounted for entirely by a volume increase or whether there is any rate of duty increase also. If it is a volume increase, and entirely a volume increase, then it seems to be one that has become progressively substantial over the years.

We all know that in relation to the economic factors that must be watched, motor cars and the economic indications that they give, must be examined and watched perhaps more carefully than anything else.

I shall not make any criticism of the Minister for his having raided the revenue balance to the extent of £650,000. The only person who makes criticism of revenue raids like that is the Tánaiste. He has criticised it on many occasions. I leave the Minister in that respect to his tender mercies. I shall not criticise, either, the removal of the duty on oil as I know the Minister and Fianna Fáil would criticise me if I had removed it because they would have said that by its removal we were throwing open the turf industry to unfair foreign competition. I do not think that would be fair criticism and I shall not make it. That duty had to be imposed in the circumstances that existed in 1956 and I am glad that the circumstances of 1960 warrant its removal and I am certainly not going to take the line of criticism that I know Fianna Fáil would take if they were not in Government.

I do not think the Minister had any option in lowering the entertainments duty in respect of cinemas. If he had not done so, as I said immediately after the Budget Statement, the chances were that he would have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. His whole revenue in that line might have been completely threatened. I fail, however, to understand where are the economic advantages, where are the development advantages, where is the productive development, in the Minister remitting and reducing portion of the taxes on dances. That does not seem to me to make any economic sense.

It is good that there has been an increase in the allowances for children under the income tax code. That increase will go a little part of the way towards offsetting some of the heavy increases those who maintain children have to bear. I shall make some reference, at a later stage, to the increased costs of food. That is one of the things that hits the large family particularly. To the extent that the increase in children's allowances under the income tax enables people to meet the increased costs of food, it is a good thing.

I am particularly glad the Minister has at last—even though it took him three years—responded to the pressure he got from this side of the House in 1957, to go back behind the Finance Act of 1932 and reduce the rate of income tax, with a consequent extension of the death duties relief, which I introduced in 1955 or 1955—I forget which. The Minister was pressed very hard from this side of the House in 1957, when he was then amending the 1932 Act, to go the whole way and make a better amendment. I told him then, and I meant it, that that stopping in 1932 was, in fact, turning taxation into a political weapon. I am very glad indeed, whether the Chambers of Commerce prompted the Minister to do it or whether he was suffering from remorse about what he should have done in 1957, that he has now done it in this Budget.

I am not at all sure that, when the Minister decided to make some concession in relation to death duties, he chose the right one. I should have thought that something that would equate our scale all along with the Northern Ireland scale would have been better from the economic point of view. I have known cases—and I have mentioned this before in this House—where people were considering whether they would live, on retirement, on this side of the Border or in the Six Counties. They looked at the relative death duty positions and, having looked at them, came to the conclusion that, having regard to the rates of duties operative both here and up there, for their own sake and their children's sake, it was better for them to go to reside in the Six County area. That could have been remedied by the Minister for very little more than the amount it has taken this year to ease the death duties position, and it might have been a far better method of easing it.

As I understood the Minister when replying on the Budget Resolutions, the increase in tobacco duties did not include any increase on stocks. According to my calculations, in 1957, 2d. meant an increase of £122,000, and 1d. duty on stocks would this year have meant, I believe, remembering the increased revenue coming in from that duty—though this is not an absolute answer; it depends on the amount of stocks held—would have been something in the region of £75,000. I should like the Minister to confirm whether or not my calculations in that respect are correct.

Reference was made by the Minister for Transport and Power to the proportion of our national income taken by taxation in this country and in other countries. In that respect, it is somewhat of interest to consider the manner in which revenue is collected and the manner in which expenditure is spent in this country and, shall we say, across the water in Britain where they have more or less the same type of revenue.

From replies given to me to Parliamentary Questions on 6th April and 26th April of this year, it appears that for us taxes on personal incomes account for 2/4d. out of every £ of revenue collected, 1/1Od. is in respect of taxes paid by companies; and 5d. out of every £ in respect of death duties. In Britain, they collect 6/4d. in respect of taxes on personal incomes; 3/5d. in respect of taxes paid by companies and 9d. in respect of taxes on death duties. We collect here out of every £ by taxes on spending, 4/2d. on tobacco, 2/7d. on drink—and I notice drink includes beer, spirits, wine and cider but excludes table waters. Where they go, I do not know. We collect 3/5d. on petrol, oil and motor vehicle duties, 4d. on entertainment and betting and 1/5d. on other spending. In Britain, they collect only 2/10d. on tobacco compared with our 4/2d.; 1/5d. on alcohol; 2d. on entertainment, television and betting; 1/9d. on purchase tax; 1/9d. on oil and motor duties; and 9d. on other taxes on spending.

Here our non-tax revenue is 3/6d. out of every £ and there non-tax revenue is only 10d. out of every £. In so far as it is possible for one to do so, that is comparing like with like. Again, it is not possible to make a complete comparison without going behind the scenes but that comparison is rather striking in certain respects and, let me be fair, striking, not entirely against the Minister.

In relation to expenditure, the position is slightly different. According to what the Minister has said in reply to my question, debt services here need 4/- out of every £ and in Britain, with all the debt they have had to carry through so many wars, it takes only 2/5d. out of every £. The Army here takes 1/- and the Garda Sióchána, 8d. Their Defence—and so far as I can see Defence covers the police force as well —needs 5/8d. out of every £. Is it not clear, therefore, that where the burden on us in that respect is so much less, we should be able to get relief in other ways?

Social services, subsidies, etc. there take 8/2d. in the £ and here they take 7/8d. Other services there take 3/4d. and here they take 2/11d. Superannuation costs 10d. out of every £1 here. I think it more fairly should be contrasted against their social services figure.

The extraordinary thing, in those expenditure statements, is the manner in which we require far more out of every £1 for debt service and far less for Army and Defence purposes. The lesser amount required by us in relation to our defence services is a thing everyone would understand. I think few people realise that debt service requires a greater proportion here of every £1 revenue collected.

A few minutes ago I mentioned that the Minister had transferred certain revenue from capital account to current account and certain expenditure from current account to capital account. As far as I can see, the approximate total of the switch he has made on those two sides for the current year is some £3½ million. If that figure is unfair to the Minister, I have no doubt he will be very quick to correct me.

Revenue is more buoyant this year than for many a year. On that account, the problem facing the Minister would have been an easy one. Might I ask him to read what the present Taoiseach said as reported in Volume 150, Columns 820 and 822? The present Taoiseach, then Deputy S. Lemass, made quite clear that any Minister for Finance who is doing his job, in a situation in which there was buoyancy of revenue, would restrict expenditure in such a way that he would be able to give away virtually the entire buoyancy except in so far as additional debt charges were concerned.

I made a calculation in that respect which I felt to be of interest. I took the three financial years ending 31st March, 1955, 1956 and 1957. I found that in those three years current expenditure was kept under original estimates by £4.1 million in all or an average basis of £1,400,000 a year. I found that in the three years, during which the Minister has been there, 31st March, 1958, 31st March, 1959, and 31st March, 1960, instead of being able to keep current expenditure within his original estimates, he exceeded them in those three years by £5,600,000 or an average of £1.9 million.

The comparison between the two is pretty clear. If the Minister relates the comparison to what the present Taoiseach said at the references I gave he will find the Taoiseach cannot have a very high opinion of him as Minister for Finance. If he wants to check the figures he will find them in the Official Report, Volume 180, Column 1804; Volume 173, Column 509.

Those figures would appear not to take account of the fact that he saved £7.1 million by the removal of the food subsidies in the 1957 Budget, less £1,950,000 for the compensatory social assistance benefits, or a sum of £5,150,000 net. In his Budget speech of 1957 he made it clear that the total gross savings by the elimination of the food subsidies in a full year would be £9 million and that the compensatory social assistance benefit would be £2½ million in a full year or a figure of £6½ million net.

When speaking at the conclusion of the debate on the Vote on Account, the Minister suggested the £9 million figure was conjured up out of the imagination of Fine Gael. May I refer him to his Budget speech of 1957? He will find he quoted the figure himself. He gave the estimate himself and we were taking his own estimate.

I remember, too, in 1957, the speeches by all the people on that side of the House in relation to the cost of living. I think Deputy P.J. Burke was particularly vocal in that respect. I do not blame him for being so vocal. I know he was being prodded and pressed on by the propaganda emanating from Mount Street and emanating in various types of election news and in their monthly lie dispenser, Gleas.

I do not know anything about propaganda.

I only wish many of us on this side of the House knew as much. Then the Deputy would not permanently be here, he would be permanently outside the door. We all remember the election sheets Fianna Fáil published at that time, the election sheets showing the manner in which there had been increases— the implication of which was clear at all times. Furthermore, it was expressed categorically and publicly that if Fianna Fáil got in they would be able to prevent the cost of living from increasing.

The other night I happened to meet a woman who told me she had with her husband listened to a Fianna Fáil broadcast in 1957 and that she said to him after that broadcast: "What can I do but vote for Fianna Fáil, because I feel the things I shall have to buy for your house week in and week out will be taken down in price if Fianna Fáil get in?" She told me she did so in spite of her husband, who, knowing the boys only too well, told her at the time not to believe them, that, the moment they would get in, prices would skyrocket even more than they ever had. She told me, to her great regret, that she had believed the Deputies over there and believed the particular broadcast in question. That is the true record there.

In 1954-55, the net taxation on foodstuffs was minus £8,900,000. In other words, food subsidies exceeded taxation on food by £8,900,000. In 1955-56, the same position was minus £8.600,000. In 1956-57 it was the same position, minus £7,600,000. Subsidies on foodstuffs in those three years, therefore, exceeded by the amounts in question the taxation.

What is the position now since Fianna Fáil got in, who were prepared to boast that they were going to ensure that the price of food would not increase? In 1957-58, that position had been completely reversed. Far from there being a sum of £7.6 million available to reduce the price of food, in 1957-58, the Minister for Finance was taking out of taxation on foodstuffs £1,200,000. In 1958-59, he was taking out in the same way £1,500,000 and in 1959-60, he was taking out £1,300,000.

Is that not a pretty dramatic reversal? Now far from there being anything available to reduce the price of food, between £1,000,000 and £1,500,000 each year has been extracted by taxation on foodstuffs from the pockets of the people—extracted, of course, in such a way, as inevitably there is with such taxation, that the price itself is increased not merely by the amount of duty but by the amount of the margin for the dealers, whether wholesalers, retailers or otherwise, on top of that duty. I wonder how Deputies opposite will explain that to their consciences and to their constituents when they go before them in the future.

We must remember, too, that the Budget we are discussing today consolidates and confirms the Budget of 1957—the Budget in which the Minister for Finance put an additional 2d. on the 20 cigarettes, to which he has added another penny now making the duty 3d.; the Budget in which he put an additional 1d. on beer to bring in an estimated £620,000; the Budget in which he added an additional 6d. to petrol and the Budget in which he added an additional 6d. to other oils.

In fairness to the Minister, let me say at once that offsetting those increases, I must put on the other side of the picture the reduction in income tax. Let us remember at the same time that the Budget is one that confirms what occurred in 1957. It confirms, therefore, the fact that from February, 1957, the price of bread rose from 9d. per 2 lb. loaf to 1/2½d.; the price of flour rose from 4/2½d. to 7/9d., an increase of 3/7d. a stone; and the price of butter rose from February of 1957 from 3/9d. to 4/3½d. in February, 1960 and we now have another 3d.

The Deputy should have balanced his Budget when leaving the Government and should not have left us £6,000,000 short.

If the Deputy took the trouble to read his Minister's Budget speech of 1957, he would be a wiser man. I am glad to see that he is taking my advice and is going away so quickly to do so. If he took my advice in certain other respects also, he would be an even wiser man. I refer Deputies also, particularly Deputies on the Fianna Fáil side who were so vocal and who spread round their constituencies this pictorial image of prices in the general election of 1957, to a reply given on 16th March of this year to Deputy Desmond. I would advise them again in the interests of their own consciences to take every one of those items which they portrayed here, look at what they portrayed and see the price of the things at the time they portrayed them in 1957 and the price at which those articles are today.

They will find, with seven exceptions, that the price now is substantially more, though they made it clear at that time by the type of their criticisms and by the type of their propaganda that they wished the people to believe that if they got in, not merely would these prices not rise any further but that they would be reduced. Does any Fianna Fáil Deputy seriously suggest that the people—a large number of them—did not believe then that Fianna Fáil would reduce the cost of living or prevent it rising still further? Do we not all know that their propaganda was cleverly designed to get that impression across? Let me give them credit for it. They did get it across to the unsuspecting people of the country.

I said on previous occasions that I think it was a mistake the Minister did not introduce a capital Budget separate from the current Budget; that it was inevitable, if the capital Budget were to be discussed at the same time as our current budgetary problems, that the capital side of our economy would not get the attention it deserved. I think that is inevitable and I think experience has shown that it is so. I have some sympathy for the Minister's difficulty. As I had announced I was going to do it, he finds, I suppose, that the Fianna Fáil Government are not big enough to follow in the same footsteps.

Let us look at what happened in relation to the financing of our capital expenditure last year. There was a shortfall in the amount the Minister asked for in his National Loan. It did not fill. I know that if that happened when I was over there, I would have Deputies of Fianna Fáil clamouring and saying that, of course, it meant there was no confidence in the Government or anything else.

Let us be honest and truthful about these things. When a National Loan does not fill, it means that in 99 cases out of 100, the Minister, in his anxiety to save the country money on interest and sinking fund, has pitched the terms slightly too low. He has pitched them too low in his anxiety to save the country money. I have no doubt whatever that that is what occurred on this occasion last year. I am certainly not going to make the dishonest propaganda often made by Fianna Fáil in that regard.

There was one occasion on which a National Loan, which I had announced, was completely up-ended by a change in the British bank rate after I had announced the loan and when there was no possibility of doing anything about it. I remember on that occasion meeting a Deputy of Fianna Fáil at the bottom of the stairs. I shall not mention any names; I shall not mention a name in relation to a personal conversation. He said to me: "That decision in regard to the British bank rate has certainly up-ended your chances of getting the National Loan. Of course, if you had known about it beforehand you would have been able to pitch the rate slightly differently." The same Deputy came in here and, for petty, Party advantage, proceeded from these benches to refer to the lack of confidence which he said the non-full subscription of that loan signified.

I am glad to be able to say that from that day to this I have never spoken to that Deputy and I never shall because he was prepared to sabotage his country for the purpose of getting a very small, petty Party advantage. In case Deputy O'Malley thinks that I am referring to him I am not, nor am I referring to anyone in this House at this precise moment. If he were here I might ask him if he remembered the conversation. As I say, I am particularly proud of the fact that I have never spoken to him since and never shall so long as I live.

That is not what happened in this case. What happened in this case was that the Minister pitched his terms slightly too low and the fact that he did so is not to be taken in any way as a criticism of it. It is inevitable that sometimes one will pitch the terms slightly too low and sometimes slightly too high and it is on balance what matters. I was glad, naturally enough, to see that part of the source of the capital that the Minister got last year for financing the capital programme came from an increase in capital provided by prize bonds. I am glad too to see that the Minister is supporting the efforts of the Savings Committee. It is only right that I should add a word of praise to the efforts of that Committee, all the members of which are acting voluntarily and without whose work it would not be possible to support so high a capital programme.

The Minister in his speech this year has done one thing in relation to capital of which I disapprove emphatically. Last year in relation to the National Loan which he floated he announced conversion terms for Transport Stock that comes due for repayment in June of this year. Not every one of the holders availed, in fact a substantial number of the holders of that stock did not avail of that capital conversion offer and the Minister has now come along and has said that he is making them a new offer. That is a dreadful thing to do because it will mean that in the future anyone who is made an offer of conversion will think that he is going to get a second chance. It would have been far far better for the Minister to have repaid the personnel in cash and then float another Transport Stock immediately thereafter to find the wherewithal if necessary.

What is being done is bound to mean that when a new conversion offer is made people will hang back and feel that if they do not take advantage of that offer they will get a second chance on more advantageous terms. The way in which the market has gone means that those who did accept the conversion offer now feel that the Minister has done them a dirty trick in persuading them to make their conversion last Autumn and that those who did not do what the Minister asked, who did not take the advice which he gave, I think on the radio and certainly in this House, are being given a second chance. That will prevent the success of conversion operations in the future; it is something which the Minister should never have done for temporary Exchequer expediency.

I want to refer the Minister to Table VI of the tables circulated with the Budget. The Minister himself referred to the dramatic drop in building and construction. Before I refer to that public capital programme table may I, in passing, say that as the years have gone by, in the last four or five years, we have been able to get more information about our public capital programmes, both in relation to the past and in relation to the future. It was an extraordinary thing which I discovered in Government, as Minister for Finance, that there was no projection of the public capital expenditure more than for a year ahead. In fact, the reason Table VI starts with the year 1956/57 is because the information that is accumulated there was not available, even to the Minister for Finance of the day, before that year. If anybody has any doubt on that, let him look at the answer which the Minister for Finance gave to me on the 25th November, 1958, when he acknowledged and admitted that that information was not there for earlier than 1956/57. I cannot understand why that information was never assembled before in such a way as to enable those in Government to take a reasonable view of the likely demand, from a capital point of view, on the Exchequer from time to time ahead. It is a fact however that it was not done and it is a fact that the first time it was ever done was on the 25th May, 1956, in the preview, if I may call it that, of Economic Development published by the same author to the Statistical Society on that date. That preview of economic development was the first real attempt made to assess our capital Budgets and capital programmes for the future.

The Minister has gone on from the beginnings, which were made at the time with my authority, and has expanded the assessments, the information which is available. That expansion is a good thing but I think that if he inquires in his Department he will find that, prior to that time, no one knew in the Department of Finance or elsewhere, from one year to another, what the picture was likely to be in the year ahead. I can well remember one Department, when asked to give a projection for some two or three years ahead, telling me in all seriousness and with all sincerity that it was utterly impossible to do so. One was made nevertheless at a later stage.

I should like the Minister, in relation to our public capital programme and our State indebtedness, to explain to me one thing which I find rather difficult to understand. The gross indebtedness of the State at the 31st March, 1960, compared with 1959 shows an increase of £37,000,000. That is a serious sum, a large increase. In that gross indebtedness only £1.6 million is attributable to housing; practically nothing is attributable to electricity or to turf. £10,000,000 is attributable to agriculture. Other voted services take about £5,000,000, but I have been completely unable to understand or to find where the gap of some £17,000,000 arises and how it is that the total has gone up by £37,000,000 notwithstanding that the component parts show a total of £17,000,000 less.

The increase in indebtedness on the agricultural front is, of course, mainly that arising because of the extension of the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme, a scheme with which we must push ahead if we are to retain the British market. I find difficulty, however, in understanding why the estimate for the public capital programme for fuel and power is down by £2½ million when one would imagine that, if there was the resurgence and the revival to which the Minister has referred, fuel and power capital expenditure would be one of the things that would be most definitely required. One explanation may be that which we gave before and which the Minister's Leader, the Taoiseach, said was nonsense. I think that the explanation on this occasion should come from the Minister himself.

I would advise Deputy O'Malley in particular to look at Table 6 and at the first subhead of it. He has shown, naturally enough, considerable interest in building construction. I would ask him to look and to see the drop in building and construction in the public capital programme this year to £12,560,000 from £17,850,000 in the years when, as he has so often said, we had no building.

The capital programme is up by £10,000,000 to £54,000,000 this year.

Would the Deputy look at the Table and he will find that the capital programme for building and construction is down, that in the year when Deputy O'Malley was fulminating—and about which he still fulminates and says that nothing was done—£17,850,000 was spent on building and construction and that all the Minister proposes to expend this year is £12,560,000. It hardly bears out the arguments that we have heard from him so often and to such an extent particularly the arguments which have been contradicted by the Minister himself in his Budget speech when he said that we should rejoice that so much of our housing programmes had been concluded. We do, but it would be better if the Minister could first, in the privacy of the Fianna Fáil Party rooms, explain to his Fianna Fáil Deputies and colleagues what he was proposing to say and make sure that they would not attempt to make a liar of him by taking another course in this House.

The fact, of course, is that the Minister is perfectly correct and that in those years a peak effort was made to deal with our housing problems and if blame is to be attached to us it is blame, as I said earlier, for trying to do too much too quickly.

The picture that there is in relation to the public capital programme is one also that is borne out in the allocations for housing grants, allocations which this year are to be £2,095,000 compared with £2,250,000 in both 1956 and 1957. It is a picture also borne out by the amounts paid out to Cork Corporation and Dublin Corporation and generally out of the Local Loans Fund for housing purposes in 1956 and 1957. The amounts expended in those years by Cork Corporation were £751,000 and £758,000 respectively. The amount that was expended in 1959 —I have not yet got the 1960 figure— was £522,000. The Local Loans Fund issues in the period from the 1st April, 1956, to the 2nd March, 1957, the day on which we went out of office, was £8,550,000. From the 1st April 1959 to the 27th February, 1960 the amount was only £3,450,000, considerably less than half.

It is rather hard to reconcile those payments with the case that people have made from time to time. If anybody wants any further details on the subject of Local Loans Fund payments or to see comparisons between amounts paid by us and the amounts paid by the present Government let him look at the Dáil debates of the 6th April this year and the 21st April of last year and he will find that the amounts paid by us for building and construction were not only allocated but were paid to a far more substantial figure than they were ever paid since by this Government. If there was the enormous back-log of payments that has been alleged by some Deputies then those payments would have soared afterwards and you would have seen skyhigh figures in the first year after the present Minister got into office. Instead of that it is a tapering figure all down the years.

I notice also, when considering the capital Budget that the Minister is presenting and when I remember the hullabaloo made by Fianna Fáil in this House, that there is considerably less being spent on rural electrification. For example, in the three years for which we were in office 96,200 consumers were connected and in the three years for which the present Minister has been in office up to the 31st March last only 46,722 consumers were connected. In our three years in office 254 areas were connected: in the present Minister's three years only 145 areas were connected. The Minister cannot say that it is because the job is entirely finished. In fact, on the 31st March last, 103 areas were still to be connected and 140,000 households were awaiting a supply. In the three years when we were in office 16,322 miles of line were strung for rural electrification; in the three years for which the Minister has been responsible that figure has dropped to 8,632.

I could go on dealing with other outrageous statements made by Fianna Fáil when they were on this side of the House. I could show that those statements had just as little foundation in fact. I could show that Fianna Fáil's performance fell very far short of their promise. Instead, I shall turn now to the general economic situation and I shall deal with certain aspects of it, aspects to which the Minister failed to advert in his Budget statement. I have said before, and I repeat now, that the circulation of the booklet showing economic statistics before the Budget is an improvement on the practice that hitherto obtained, and the Minister is to be congratulated for that improvement. I have said before, and I repeat now, that it was an unfortunate mistake, and something done under Ministerial direction, to change the format of the booklet. I am not now challenging in any way the figures that appear in it. I merely question the breaking down of certain tables in a different way so that the tots are no longer readily available.

The first matter with which these statistics deal is the balance of international payments. The Minister referred to the balance of payments position. He took the average over the last three years. I think, much more than any average, the trend is important. What is the trend? The average the Minister mentioned is quite satisfactory, taking one year with another, but the trend shows an entirely different picture. The trend shows that in 1957 we had a surplus of £9,200,000 on current account. This surplus dropped to £1,000,000 of a deficit in 1958 and it dropped to £8.7 millions of a deficit in 1959. That trend on its own would not be so very serious, even though it portrays a different picture from that which the Minister exhibited in his comparison. What worries me is not the change in terms of figures but the change there has been and the deterioration that has taken place at a time when international prices were moving so much in our favour.

If the Minister looks at page five he will see recorded there that, as a result of favourable price movements, the import excess in 1959 was £6.9 millions less than it would have been if the 1958 price levels had remained operative. If he looks at last year's figures he will find the same story recorded there; international price levels again showed an improvement of £13.1 millions over the previous year. That means that over the period of those three years, taken in real terms, and having regard to the actual position and to our imports, the position has deteriorated by no less than £38,000,000. That is not a healthy position.

It remains now to consider whether the terms of trade in 1957 or the terms of trade in 1959 were likely to be the more permanent. The truthful answer is, I think, that 1957 was depressingly low and 1959 was slightly higher than we have a right to expect for the future. If I am right in that, it means, without question, that we had in 1959 a more favourable position than we have a right to expect for the future. Yet, in relation to it, we have failed to make the progress that we should have made.

Terms of trade are very often something that people find it hard to understand. If one puts them in an ordinary commonplace setting they may be easier of comprehension. If one makes a comparison between 1959 and 1957, for every £'s worth of goods bought in 1957, less what we sold at real prices, we had to pay out £1; for every £'s worth of goods bought in 1959, less what we sold at real prices, we had to pay out only 17/1d. We got 2/11d. change out of every £1 because of the improvement in international prices. I do not think even the most hardened warrior in Fianna Fáil would claim any benefit because international prices improved. But that is what it means. Surely, then, when we have 2/11d. change out of every £1 in 1959 we were entitled to make some real progress.

I referred in the Budget debate—I want to stress it again to-day—that one of the tragedies of this all-time high record volume of imports is that the increase in producers' capital goods is merely trifling. Not merely is the increase trifling but the percentage of such goods that we bring in in relation to those we utilise for consumption direct is far too high. Even in relation to goods which are brought in for further processing, a great many of them are for consumption purposes later.

In relation to part of his Budget the Minister took the survey and suggestions of the Associated Chambers of Commerce. He would be well advised to examine also their analysis of the goods imported. He will see that my statements are fully borne out. They, with their special knowledge, appreciate and accept that there is too low a percentage of capital goods brought in and too high a percentage of goods which will merely pass through one stage before being consumed and which will not therefore, under any circumstances, increase our wealth in the future.

I cannot see how the Minister can be complacent in relation to trade when he looks at Table 3 which shows that the volume of exports is steadily declining year by year. In 1957 it was 116.9; it declined in 1958 to 114.3; it declined in 1959 to 109.6. I accept at once that those figures require to be adjusted somewhat because some of the cattle that should have gone out at the end of 1959 were held over and did not go out until the beginning of 1960. But, even allowing for that, the trend shown is far from satisfactory. It is one that must be considered seriously if we intend to look at the whole picture.

It is good to see that there has been some increase in the export of manufactured goods—some increase, for example, in the value of wool and of copper exported. I do not think it unfair to say that, in relation to many of these increases, the desire for export first arose because of the incentives introduced by me in the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1956, an Act which I freely admit was subsequently improved, as a result of experience, by the Minister himself.

I do not think there is anything to be complacent about when we come to the question of national income. In relation to that, both the Minister in his Budget speech and more particularly the Taoiseach in his speech the other day were lacking in honesty. We all accept the claim of the Minister and the Taoiseach that, because the harvest weather in 1958 was so appalling, standards of production in that year could not possibly come up to expectations or average. That case has been made constantly by the Government with justification. But yet when the Government, through the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach, come to consider whether there has been any advance in national income in 1959, it is not with other years they compare it but with what they themselves described as that depressing year of 1958. If you take 1958 as a typical year, then there was an advance in 1959. Is there anybody in the House prepared to say that the best we can look forward to or hope for in the future is the year 1958 with its appalling harvest weather and that that would be a typical or an average year for the future? If, as I am quite certain, everybody would say it was a below average year, is it not dishonest to start with that, as your datum year so to speak, and to show increases from it as being real increases?

The position, on the contrary, is much more truly shown in Table 12 (b) on page 25. Here we can see that at constant prices gross national expenditure—more or less the equivalent of national income—between 1957 and 1959 virtually did not change, that in 1957 it was £537.9 million and that in 1958—the disastrous year to which I have referred and for which I attach no blame to Fianna Fáil—it dropped to £521 million and that last year, 1959, it came back to £539 million—£1 million difference in two years, taking 1957 and 1959 as being properly comparable. In two years the difference was one-tenth of one per cent. per annum. That is nothing to shout about or be complacent about. That is not by a long way the increase in real income the Minister led us to believe and the increase in economic expansion, which we were led to believe, would be the aim and object of attainment. Incidentally, in passing, may I say that the manner in which the Taoiseach tried to draw an inference in his speech here the other day that, because we had progressed over the bad year of 1958 into slightly better waters in 1959, we were going to double our national income in a lesser time than was suggested in Economic Development, was so dishonest and dishonourable that nobody, except Deputy Lemass, as Taoiseach, would dare make it?

Let me say categorically and at once that I am glad there has been some increase in industrial production in 1959 compared with 1957 and 1958. If one looks at the quarterly sheet circulated by the Central Statistics Office it shows that the volume of production is still under 1955, taking all transportable goods. We find, if we turn there, that there were fewer people employed in industry in 1959 than in 1955. Remember, this Government got into power on the promise not that they would be able to halt the decline in industrial employment but on the promise that they had only to be put into power and there would be an immediate upsurge in employment, that they would be able as a result of their policies to find employment—in the belief of the poor deluded people whom they did delude —for another 100,000 people. I wonder how many votes they would have got if they had told the people truthfully in 1957 that in 1960, three years later, they would not be able to show as many people in industrial employment as there were in 1955? Would there have been as great enthusiasm among the people to vote for them if they had told them that story? Would the wives have gone out to vote to put their husbands to work if they were told that in 1960 there would not be as many people employed in industry as there were in 1955? Would that have been something that would have got them votes?

Would they have got votes from the agricultural community if they told them then that in 1959 agricultural output would be 97.9 measured against 102.6 in 1956 and 108.8 in 1957? Would the agricultural community be satisfied that now, with Fianna Fáil in power for three years, agricultural output would drop in that way? Are the present Minister and the Government satisfied about, for example, the situation in relation to pigs and bacon? The Minister has done something small in this Budget for the purpose of improving the grading of pigs. I welcome that, but I must regard it against the background that in the first four months of this year 380,000 pigs were delivered to the factories whereas two years ago on this same sheet I see that 87,000 more, or 467,439, were so delivered.

This is the general picture one must consider in relation to our economic situation as a whole. This Government have frequently said they were the architects of the scheme and the real people interested in the delivery of ground limestone on the land. They have been there three years, and we were there three years. If the Minister cares to tot up the figures, he will find that during our three years in office, 2,826,000 tons of ground limestone were spread on the land, and during his three years in office, less was spread, namely, 2,787,000 tons.

They also said that they were going to get moving with regard to farm buildings, but what is the true position there? In the three years ended 31st March, 1957, for which we were responsible, grants were paid to 56,101 farmers, and the total amount of the grants paid out was £2,030,872. The Minister has been responsible for the past three years and in that time fewer farmers received grants and less money was paid out in grants. The exact comparative numbers are 50,601 and £1,932,522. That is hardly the record of a Government who have been as successful as they pretended to the electorate they would be three years ago.

They have been three years in office and, according to their own statistics, the numbers in employment have gone down year by year. In agriculture, they were down in 1959 from 1958, and in 1958 from 1957. There were 75,000 people employed in construction in 1957, but in 1959, only 61,000 people. In non-agricultural employment, there were 703,000 people employed in 1957, but in 1959, only 692,000, a reduction of 11,000, and even where there has been some little improvement, still in December, 1959, there were fewer people employed in producing transportable goods than upsurge, there were approximately 1,000 fewer people employed in December, 1959, as against December, 1955—149,000 as against 150,000.

All down the scale the record of there were in December, 1955. Even in manufacturing industry, where the Minister claims there has been an this Government in employment has been one of complete failure. From 1956, the total drop in employment has been 51,000, though there was some improvement at the end of 1959. Let me give the fair figure, but I believe that when the first quarter's insurance stamps for this year are a tough time last year, following on counted, they will show a decrease the tough time of the previous year. because the farmers undoubtedly had Inevitably that must mean less employment in agriculture, and the farmer buys his stamps in the first quarter of the year, in the January to March quarter, to put them on for the whole year. I am afraid that when those figures come to be seen, they will show and reflect the decrease there has been.

Finally, I remember the members of Fianna Fáil speaking so virulently on the subject of emigration, leading the people to believe that when they became the Government, emigration would cease overnight. Let me be perfectly frank. There was emigration when we were in office, but there has been worse emigration since this Government came into office and the depressing thing about it is that the Minister for Finance, with all the special knowledge and with all the confidential information he has, as late as 15th March last, came into this House and told us that in 1959, emigration was higher than in 1958. I wonder how many votes Deputies opposite would have got in the general election of 1957 if they had told the people then that after they had been three years in office, their Minister for Finance would have to come in and say that in 1959, the last of those three years, emigration had been higher than it was the previous year.

It has been higher and we can see that when we move throughout the country. We hear of it wherever we go and whenever we talk to the small shopkeepers, particularly in the towns of rural Ireland. The small towns are feeling the pinch more than anywhere else. Economists may tell us that everything is going beautifully, but, taking the country as a whole and in particular the rural areas, those of us who move through them, or who speak to people moving through them, know that money in the rural areas was never so tight.

The other day I was talking to a man with a business in Wexford, in the constituency of the Minister for Finance, who is far from being my way of political thinking, and I asked him how things were. He said that never in his experience had he known money to be so tight in county Wexford. I was in Carlow recently and I was told the same thing there. I was talking to a businessman who came up from the west to see me in Dublin only the other day and he told me the same story. We have asked people up and down the country and they all tell the same story, that in rural Ireland money was never so scarce, was never so hard to come by, and that it is harder to collect accounts than it ever was.

Any Fianna Fáil Deputy who asks any solicitor will be told by that solicitor that he is finding it harder to collect money for his clients than he ever did before, and that he is being asked by his clients to collect money earlier because of the shortage. That is the true picture, the true economic picture throughout the length and breadth of the land at the present time.

The picture painted by the Minister for Finance in his Budget of everything being beautiful in the garden is one that has no reality in fact in rural Ireland. As I said at the beginning of my speech, the Minister tried by political blackmail to prevent us challenging those figures. We are going to challenge them because he did not tell the whole truth to the House and to the country and this is the truth, the real truth, on both sides of the picture. I have given both sides of the picture in the analysis of the figures I made today.

If length of speech and quantity of statistics were to be the criterion by which speeches in this House are judged, then I would say Deputy Sweetman's contribution would rank very high amongst the contributions made here in recent times, but, even in his speech, I detected the note of disappointment that showed itself in the contributions of the other Opposition Deputies who have taken part in this debate.

The Opposition Deputies have fared badly. They were hoping to get heavier ammunition out of this Budget and have been badly let down. I would say that they are the only people in the country who are disappointed with this Budget. The reaction of the ordinary person in rural Ireland is relief and satisfaction. It was felt that with all the new commitments the Minister had to meet and all the new impositions that never appeared in a Budget before, taxation would necessarily be fairly severe. The people found, to their relief and pleasure, that, far from any new taxation, except the increased taxation on cigarettes, reliefs under this Budget cover a wide sector of our people.

Consequently, Opposition speakers concentrated on two features: first, the size of the increase granted to old age pensioners and other social welfare classes and, secondly, the usual cry that the country is in a very bad financial state, a very serious economic position and that the farmers are in despair.

Coming from a farming constituency, I can say that among the farming people in Carlow-Kilkenny, this has been a very welcome Budget. I do not want to attempt to disguise the fact that for the past two years things have been very difficult in farming. The whole of the year 1958, as everybody knows, was disastrous, especially in my constituency, which is a cereal-growing area. The farmers in my constituency in that year suffered the most disastrous losses, from which they have not yet recovered. That was followed by the long drought of last year which resulted in the very big drop in milk production.

The Opposition misjudge the fibre of the farmers of Ireland if they think that they are as easily knocked about and driven to despair as they would suggest. The farmers of Ireland, with all the assistance that has been given to them under this Budget and by this Government and, principally, relying on their own resource and resilience, are ready to deliver the goods and play their part in our programme of economic expansion.

The farming community particularly welcome what is probably the greatest thing that has ever been done for rural Ireland by any Government, the introduction of the phosphate subsidy, followed by the potash subsidy, for which provision is made in this Budget, and also the fact cattle export subsidy and the reduction in the price of diesel fuel and lubricating oil for tractors.

When my colleague, Deputy Crotty, was speaking here last week, he made the usual reference to the size of the increase that has been granted to old age pensioners. It is usual for Opposition speakers to describe this as a miserable contribution and Deputy Crotty was no different from the rest of them. Deputy Crotty has a habit when speaking in this House of asking a series of rhetorical questions. He expressed anxiety as to what the reactions of his colleagues in Kilkenny County Council were and referred to the confidence which Fianna Fáil county councillors had expressed a long time ago in the desire of the Government to improve the lot of the people who were old and poor.

I was one of the county councillors who expressed confidence that the Fianna Fáil Government and Party would see that these interests were protected. Last week, Deputy Crotty asked, in my absence, whether we were satisfied. I should like to answer that question by saying that the Fianna Fáil Party are not satisfied with that and it is for that very reason that the Fianna Fáil Government have introduced the new Social Welfare Bill which proposes to put old age pensions at such a level as will save old age pensioners from being a political football for those who have nothing else to kick. It will save the old age pensioners from the indignity of having crocodile tears shed for them here and at every county council meeting throughout the country.

I should like to express my satisfaction with the proposals in that Bill and to say that, while Deputy Crotty was a member of the Coalition Government for three years, it was remarkable that it never occurred to any member of that Cabinet to introduce such a measure.

Far from the Fianna Fáil Party being disappointed, any disappointment there is lies on the other side. It probably is disappointing that Fianna Fáil, justifiably, will get the credit for the introduction of the new Bill.

I conclude by expressing the belief that for the people this has been a very satisfactory Budget. For the Opposition, who have a by-election to fight in my constituency in the near future, I am afraid, there is very little in it.

I wish to make some few observations and comments on this Budget from the point of view of those classes of the community in which I am personally particularly interested. I want to speak a few words on behalf of the old age pensioner, on behalf of the family man and the housewife and on behalf of that section of the community who used to be referred to as the middle classes but whom, now that that particular designation is out of date, I can only describe as those classes of the community who are dependent on their own health and on their own brains as their sole machinery and sole capital to produce the earnings that will keep them going during their lifetime and provide for their families thereafter.

I should like to say at the very outset that I have gained some measure of quiet satisfaction, in reading the Budget Statement of the Minister, from the fact that the general lines of this Budget pretty closely follow the lines laid down and followed by the two Governments of which I had the honour to be head. It is a great source of satisfaction to us to know that the Minister, in his winding-up peroration, gave utterance to views of which I, personally, approve, and not merely because in the last speech I made on the Taoiseach's Estimate in 1956, I made a similar but more lengthy exhortation to the Government, the Fianna Fáil Party and all Parties, to follow lines of not denigrating the work done over the years, and not bringing discredit upon our political institutions and upon those on both sides of the House who had contributed something to the building up of the financial and economic structure of the State.

Towards the close of his speech, at column 182, volume 181, No. 2 of the Official Report, the Minister said:

A great disservice to national development is done by those who belittle the advances made—under different Governments—and who, by spreading pessimism, lessen the determination we should all share to make greater progress in the future.

I approve of that statement, all the more because it is an echo, if the Minister will permit me to say so, of a speech I made on the Taoiseach's Estimate in 1956. I would ask Deputies, if they would be good enough, to look at the sentiments I urged upon all sections of the House, and the community, at that time, in the interests of the national good, and to prevent our enemies at home and abroad from casting aspersions upon the achievements which had been attained by native Governments since 1922.

At column 1703 of the Official Report, 25th July, 1956, I said:

We must be vigilant, however, lest careless and misinformed criticism injures the prestige and lowers the esteem of the democratic institutions which we have fought for and which we have worked so successfully.

We face the future, therefore, fortified by the possession of these democratic institutions and by the knowledge of our achievements in the past. To those who see nothing but the black side, who minimise past achievements and maximise present problems I would repeat— because I think that in present circumstances it bears repetition— what I said during the debate on the Budget on the 17th May, 1956. In Volume 157, No. 5, column 657 of the Dáil Debates, I said:—

"I do not think we should forget what has been achieved. I am not going to enter into any discussion as to whether it was this Government, the last inter-Party Government or any Fianna Fáil Government that achieved it. The country is entitled to be proud of the achievements which have been made and not to be discouraged by the difficulties which face it now and by the fact that we cannot get everywhere at once."

If we can all agree upon these principles, we shall do some good for the country. If the Government, when they go into Opposition, remember the Minister's exhortations, and what I said when I was in Government, and if we can agree that while the democratic machinery requires that there should be a strong and vigilant Opposition to the Government in order to keep the Government on their toes, and constructively point out where they are erring and what is required, then, we shall have done something which will be a contribution to the future development and the prosperity and stability of the country.

It annoys me to see some people outside the 26 Counties pointing to the fact that the Irish Government were in difficulties, or that the country had financial or social difficulties, or saying that we are not as well-off as Great Britain, approving it, and taking a certain measure of satisfaction out of our difficulties and showing reasons why there should not be a unification between North and South. It will be a good thing if all accept what the Minister says, which was an echo of what I said. I am not saying that for any egotistical reasons, but merely to underline the necessity for all sections of the community to work together, so far as they can reasonably do so, to achieve the prosperity we all desire and to win the advances which I think the Minister wishes to secure, if he is sincere in the statement he made, as I hope he is, along the lines we laid down.

I am glad also that the Minister took as the kind of principle on which he drafted the Budget and the proposals he made in it, that the Budget should not be restrictive in character. That was the principle I hoped all the time I was in office to put into operation. I believed that what this country wanted was expansion and not restriction. Unfortunately, the circumstances we had to meet during one particular period, when we were in office, required restriction, but it was certainly my conviction even in times of stress and strain that the more quickly we got to a policy of expansion the better.

To the extent that the Minister recognised that what the country now wants is not restriction but a full measure of expansion, I think, if he had, perhaps, taken a little more courage into his own hands and done something a little dramatic, the country would probably have benefited more from the Budget and the proposals it contains. If there is criticism to be made of the Budget, it might, perhaps, be summarised by saying that, while there is jam in the Budget, it is too thinly spread and endeavours to cover too wide an area of the economy, but there is some jam in it—and some jam of a kind we wanted to make in our time.

I should like to speak first of all on behalf of the housewives and the families of the middle and lower classes. At column 168, volume 181, No. 2, of the Official Report the Minister referred to the fact that the increases in food prices resulting from the Government's agricultural policy would mean additional charges on family budgets and he went on to indicate the reliefs he intended to give. Those reliefs are confined to families on rather low fixed incomes, especially those dependent on social assistance.

While we all rejoice to see even a small measure of relief being given to all those deserving sections of the community, there are other sections who, though not living on small incomes and not in receipt of social assistance, are finding the going rather tough because of the increases in food prices, particularly the increase in the price of butter and generally in prices of all kinds, due to the fact that impositions are made by Government action outside the Budget, particularly by tariffs. All these increase the cost of living and in that way bear upon other sections of the community besides those on low incomes.

I speak especially for those people. While I have the utmost sympathy for people on low incomes and in the social assistance income groups, I speak especially for those who are earning their living with their own brains and health, and whose income depends on a continuance of good health and a maintenance of the machinery on which their entire income and well-being depend, namely, brains, energy and work. I have spoken time and again on their behalf. Some little thing has been done for them in this Budget, I am glad to say, but not enough.

The families of these people have a hard and a tough time. They have to keep up a certain standard of living and the increases they get in their earnings do not keep pace with the many demands upon them in the increased prices they have to bear. Therefore, they have to provide for their families through their savings. It is only by means of savings that they are enabled to provide something to keep and maintain their families. Sometimes there is an early death in the family, perhaps the premature departure of the head of the household, so he has to provide for the family left behind. That is part of their work; that is part of their whole life. The object of their lives is to save something for their families.

I am glad the Minister has paid a well-deserved tribute to the Savings Committee. I rejoice it was we who started that committee, recognising that savings were utterly essential to the economic and increasing prosperity of the country. Those people for whom I speak are the very valuable source from which most of the savings of the community come. They get no allowance for the depreciation in what is their machinery and plant. The industrialist asks for and makes a good case for particular types of exemption and relief in respect of the running-down of his machinery and for the replacement of his machinery when it is run down. Those people for whom I speak, and I speak for them with some degree of fervour because I am one of them myself, who depend entirely for their livelihood on their health and brains as their sole machinery and plant, have nothing but the machinery of their health and brains and work. They get nothing for the running-down of that machinery or for the replacement of the energy expended in earning their livelihood in the only way they can do so by their individual efforts and resources. They are entitled to consideration. I have made a convincing case here time and time again for special relief for them.

In my opinion, the Minister has not gone far enough to assist that particular section in this object. It is true, and I am glad he has done so, that he has given certain reliefs to people with families. That is a welcome relief to people who have families and who are within the category of people on whose behalf I am making these remarks. However, it has not gone far enough. They are a valuable section of the community, contributing to the wealth of the economy. They are the section that contribute most to the savings of the people. They should get a little more consideration.

The Minister has gone along another line that was certainly very dear to my objectives, in connection with giving relief on death duties. I have advocated here, and still advocate, the necessity for the total abolition of death duties. That can be done progressively. I made the case last year and the year before in this House and I make the case on the basis that it would be good business for the country. As I understand it, death duties were a form of redistributing income— taking it from the rich and giving it to the less well off. That was the notion in days gone by.

In recent developments, particularly in Great Britain, estate duty became a method not merely of redistributing incomes but practically of confiscating incomes of a certain level. We have no conditions into which that scheme of death duties or the economic objective behind it has any place. Again, the people for whom I speak must make provision for their families largely by means of insurance policies and whatever little saving they can make from their incomes. They paid premiums on their insurance policies year in and year out which were calculated at a time when inflation was not in operation in this country. The position now is that, because of inflation, the capital sum they receive when the period over which they had to pay the premiums elapses or in the case of death, if it is a death policy, has depreciated in value to a very considerable degree.

That is bad enough. I suppose it can be regarded as something unfortunate that has overtaken many people living in the difficult conditions of the past 20 or 30 years. Consider the position of people who saved not so much for the purpose of making themselves rich as of providing for their children. In the event of death, it is found that estate duty, legacy and succession duty takes away a large lump. There is no justification whatever for the continuance of that system in this country. It is unjust, unfair and contrary to the national good.

The Minister has given some relief in the matter of death duties in this Budget. That is very satisfactory so far as it goes but it does not go very far and, in fact, it gives very little relief. The measure of the relief can be judged by the fact that all it will cost the Exchequer next year is £50,000, which is a mere bagatelle.

In our first year in office, the inter-Party Government took a step to try to bring up the ceiling of death duties. I hoped that that would eventually go to the point when they would disappear. The exemption limit for estates entitled to get relief goes only, I think, to £5,000. The Minister raises the exemption from £2,000 to £5,000. I suppose that to many an Irish farmer £5,000 looks a lot but to anybody who has spent years paying large premiums on a policy of insurance to provide for his family when he dies, and who has also had to try to save money to buy a house for himself, together with the fall in the value of money at present, that £5,000 is a relatively trivial amount. It is worth only about £1,000 to £1,200 pre-war value. That is not enough as an incentive to saving.

The Minister says he proposes to grant some relief from death duties so as to encourage saving and investment. That is not enough to achieve the purpose. I want something more than that. I entirely agree it is desirable and essential that the Minister should encourage saving and investment by these devices, but, in justice to the section of the community for whom I am speaking, that limit of £5,000 should be greatly increased and it would cost the Exchequer very little. The whole object of the Government should be completely to abolish death duties. That is a business proposition put forward in the interests not of a particular class but of the community.

I believe that if any Irish Government abolished death duties there would be an influx of wealth to this country. Not merely would money be spent here by those people but the income tax that would emerge would more than offset any losses. I think a sum of only about £2,000,000 a year accrues to the Exchequer from death duties. Such action would offset any loss to the Exchequer from death duties by reason of the increase in revenue from income tax and other taxes and also by reason of the extra flow of money. I believe there would be a greatly increased influx of wealth to this country if we abolished the death duties.

There is another consideration from the point of view of the Exchequer to which I should like to direct the attention of the Minister. Legacy and succession duties have been abolished, I believe, in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. They are still in operation here. What is the justification for them? They are all coming out of savings to a very great extent in the circumstances of this country. What is the point of having these legacy and succession duties which, even in socialistic Great Britain, have been abolished? They are abolished also in Northern Ireland. Here in the Republic at the present moment, in contradistinction to the position in Northern Ireland, we have the position of legacy and succession duty of one per cent., I believe, in the smallest case, 5 per cent. in the case even of brothers and sisters and 10 per cent. in other cases. What amount of duty is got in by that? The time has come when the legacy and succession duties could be abolished.

I want to direct the Minister's attention to another and, maybe, more serious aspect to which, perhaps, he has not adverted. You can only get any worthwhile produce from death duties if big estates come in here and if people die leaving pretty substantial sums of money. In certain ranges of estates it is more advantageous for a person to be domiciled in the Six Counties than it is to be domiciled here. I wonder if the Minister or his advisers adverted to that fact. In certain ranges of estates it is better for the executors of that estate or the testator to be domiciled in Northern Ireland, Great Britain than in this country. In other words, we inevitably lose on that.

I have taken figures in connection with these matters for the purpose of bringing this point home to the Minister and his advisers. I shall give the figures for the rate of death duties on various estates up to a certain amount. I have not got the figures for all of them but on an estate the capital value of which exceeds £30,000 but does not exceed £35,000 the rate of duty per cent. in Great Britain is 21. In Northern Ireland it is 15 per cent. and here in the Republic it is 18 per cent., so that it is considerably less here than in Northern Ireland. Where the capital value exceeds £35,000 but does not exceed £40,000, the rate of duty per cent. is 24 in Great Britain, 18 in Northern Ireland and 21 here. On an estate the capital value of which is between £40,000 and £45,000 the rate in Great Britain is 28 per cent., in Northern Ireland, 21 per cent. and here it is 24 per cent.

Between £45,000 and £50,000 the rate of duty in Great Britain is 31 per cent. In Northern Ireland it is 24 per cent. and here in the Republic it is 27 per cent. Between £50,000 and £55,000 the rate in Great Britain is 35 per cent. In Northern Ireland, it is 27 per cent. and in the Republic it is 30 per cent. On estates valued between £55,000 and £60,000, the rate of duty is 35 per cent. in Great Britain, 30 per cent. in Northern Ireland and 30 per cent. here. Where the estate has a value between £60,000 and £65,000, in Great Britain the rate is 40 per cent. It is 30 per cent. in Northern Ireland and 33 per cent. here. In all cases between £30,000 and £60,000, except in the case of an estate valued between £55,000 and £60,000, the rate of duty exacted in this country is greater than in Northern Ireland.

What is the point of that? If we want to attract people with big estates to come here and spend their money in this country, will they be attracted by the fact that when they die the State will exact from their estate a greater rate of duty than would be exacted had they been domiciled in Northern Ireland? Is it not quite clear that, looking at it even from the point of view of revenue, there is a great source of loss revealed by the facts which I have related to the House? I hope I am correct in the figures I have given. I believe I am. For those reasons—and they constitute only an outline—the objective should be certainly immediately to abolish legacy and succession duties and progressively to reach the stage where all death duties will be abolished. What we want in this country is wealth to enable us to produce more, to get greater capital to invest in all the products we want—wealth to increase our activities here and distribute it more evenly among the community. The abolition of death duties would be a major contribution towards that.

The next matter to which I should like to refer is the relief given in the Budget to exports. Again, that is entirely in line with the policy which I had the privilege of initiating. I hope the House will not think me unduly egotistical if I try to claim advantage for my former colleagues in Government by referring to these matters. I will only say that it does not matter a straw to me at the present moment what kudos or gratification I get. But I think it is of importance, from the point of view of the public generally, that it should be known how these matters were initiated and that credit should be given where it is due. In October, 1956, on the authority of my colleagues in the inter-Party Government, I announced the policy of these export tax reliefs. I think the Minister did wisely in extending, as he has done in each of the Budgets he has introduced since he became Minister for Finance, those budgetary reliefs. It is a source of real gratification not merely to us as politicians or because we initiated it—that does not matter—that the economy of the country generally has derived a very substantial advantage from the initiation of those export reliefs.

This year we had the gratification of seeing that our exports really created a record. They made a very substantial contribution to keeping our balance of payments in balance at a time when our agricultural exports were not, to put it mildly, as good as they might be or people would hope them to be. They made a very great contribution to the economy of this country. I entirely approve of the Minister's suggestion to extend the relief in the way he has done, not merely to give it to people who manufactured and exported but to give it to people who, without having manufactured, found markets and exported. That relief does not go far enough. I would hope that any future Minister for Finance, the present Minister or somebody else, would continue that policy of extending the relief for export.

This country requires not merely agricultural exports but industrial exports. I think it is a fallacy to consider that this country depends entirely upon our agricultural exports. As a Party, Fine Gael have been, all through their history, in the forefront of this policy of the development of our agricultural industry as the basis of our economy, stability and strength. As a necessary, essential adjunct to that, the country requires a strong well-developed and ever-developing manufacturing industry linked as far as possible with our agricultural industry. Nevertheless, I want to insist that while we must attach importance to the development of our agricultural produce, we must attach equal importance to the development of our manufacturing industry, particularly in relation to exports of that industry.

Every country in the world is fighting for its economic life and its greatest and bitterest fight is on the export markets of the world. We have to fight that same fight on behalf of our own country and we cannot really rely upon our economic stability or solely on agriculture. We must have exports of our manufacturing industries. Equally, I would say it should not be confined, as it is now, to goods manufactured from Irish materials in this country. There is a strong case for widening the exemption and giving the relief to all sorts of goods manufactured here and sent abroad for export, whether manufactured from Irish manufactured produce or not.

We can look, as an example of what can happen, to the cotton industry in Lancashire. That industry, which was the basis of the prosperity of Great Britain, was dependent upon the imports of the raw materials from abroad. Why should this exemption be confined in this country merely to Irish manufactured goods? What does it matter as long as we get the exports that bring relief to this country and give a measure of increased prosperity, whether it is Irish manufactured goods or goods manufactured from imported raw materials and then sold through any agency we wish to think about?

I think also that it should not be confined to the produce of manufacturing industry, that it should apply to agriculture as well. We want as many exports of every kind as possible, whether they be manufacturing exports or agricultural exports, and I think the agricultural exports should also get the benefit of this exemption and remission. I cannot see why it should be confined merely to Irish manufactured goods. What we want to get is an export market for all our produce, for everything produced here, whether Irish manufactured goods or goods made from raw materials brought in and then exported, or whether they are agricultural exports.

I do not see any reason, for instance, why fish should not be included. If somebody would procure export markets for fish, it would be a tremendous advantage to the economy of the country. Why should not the benefit of this export relief be given to exporters of fish who secure new markets and as a result of the incentive given by this put their backs into getting fresh lines of exports and fresh markets for our agricultural produce? Again, why confine it to manufactured goods and even to agricultural produce? Why not do it with the products of a person's brains? If we have here a man who is, say, a painter, or a writer, and if he as a result of his talent, genius or artistry sells the produce of his brains, or of his talent or genius abroad, why could we not have an incentive for that particular type of thing?

These, I suggest to the Minister, are constructive suggestions which are not merely for the purpose of saying something. They are made in the spirit that I believe that, if the extension of this relief were made, it would bring tremendous economic advantages to the country. Now, the export relief of income tax, as originally proposed, was for the purpose of assisting companies to find markets and to increase their export trade.

The original proposal—I am speaking now from recollection—was that the export relief should be given to companies which found export markets and which with the income profits they made from those reliefs, or by virtue of them, or in consequence of them, they could do anything they liked for the company, for its expansion or the replacement of machinery or anything of that kind. I think the Taoiseach put down an amendment to it, which the Government of which I was head accepted, confining the relief to the shareholders of the company. In other words, the benefit of the tax relief had to be passed on to the shareholders, and I am sure the shareholders rejoiced in that and will continue to rejoice in it. But I think a little remission of that might be considered in certain circumstances and that the company should be in a position to have some flexibility in dealing with any resultant profit or benefit they obtain from this relief from income tax.

The Minister in the course of his statement referred to the benefits he was proposing to give and had given to pensioners. I hope, a Cheann Comhairle, I am not going outside the range of the Budget when I say that again the classes of people whom he has brought in are perhaps also a little restricted. I have had representations made to me by pensioners from Córas Iompair Éireann, who have not got the benefit of these increases in their pensions. These increases are based on a recognition that money values have fallen drastically, that the cost of living has increased and that people on fixed pensions have suffered pretty severe hardships. I know that Córas Iompair Éireann is, in theory, an independent institution and is expected to work itself out in such a way that it will no longer be a burden on the taxpayer. That is a very laudable proposal, but individuals are more laudable than even economics and the economics of a railway company.

Many of those people who were employees of Córas Iompair Éireann for many years and earned their pensions now find themselves in the position that they have not got any increase in their pensions. When they approached the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann, they were met with great sympathy but were told: "We have a job to make this pay. We cannot afford to pay you pensioners anything." I think the human rights of these individuals are very much more important than making C.I.E. pay within a few years and the amount this would cost would not postpone by one quarter hour the day—if it ever dawns—when C.I.E. will no longer be an expense on the taxpayer.

The Minister should use his influence with the Board of C.I.E. to indicate to them at least that he as Minister for Finance—who of course is more greatly concerned than any other Minister with the proposal that C.I.E. shall pay its way and will no longer be an expense on the taxpayer —would look with benevolence on a project to come to the assistance of the old C.I.E. pensioners.

I might say it has been a pleasure to listen to Deputy Costello make one of the most constructive speeches I have heard from any member of the Opposition in this debate. It is unfortunate that his colleagues in the Fine Gael Party did not adopt the same tactics or policy. Then we might have learned something instead of having the debate up to now turned into a political attack on the Government. I suppose that is inevitable; I suppose Fianna Fáil could have adopted somewhat similar tactics but what was remarkable was the team up by Fine Gael. It was like the High Court, with senior and junior counsel instructed by solicitors. I do not know whether it was an accident or a planned campaign that Fine Gael should use their top guns to lead off —Deputy Dillon, a barrister and Leader of Fine Gael; Deputy Sweetman, solicitor; Deputy Lindsay, S.C., Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, S.C., Deputy Cosgrave, barrister, and now Deputy Costello, leader of the Irish bar.

I do not think they have been very convincing or that the ordinary man has anything critical to say of the Budget. The Opposition would be well advised to let the Budget debate conclude and let us get on with the Estimates.

An interesting point was made on death duties by Deputy Costello. I suppose it is a consummation devoutly to be wished and the ambition of every Minister that death duties should be abolished, but in my humble opinion, much more than just abolishing death duties has to be considered. If we abolish death duties, is it not a corollary that we abolish the 25 per cent. property tax on non-nationals? I take it the idea of abolishing death duties is to introduce new capital——

Has the purchase tax not gone to a great extent?

It has gone to the extent that there is a method of evasion.

No, perfectly legitimately gone, except in the case of agricultural holdings.

Exactly, but if we wish to extract capital by abolishing death duties, would we not also have to abolish the 25 per cent. purchase tax on agricultural holdings? Deputy Costello cited facts which proved that for the size of certain estates in Ireland, we had higher death duties than Britain or Northern Ireland. If we lowered the duties and brought them down, say, 2 per cent. lower than Britain or Northern Ireland, that would not be the answer because the taxation in Ireland is much less in certain instances for the type of person Deputy Costello envisaged would come here. The type of person he had in mind was the far wealthier person—he spoke of estates of £35,000. The income tax rate in Ireland, without removing any death duties, is far more attractive to these people than what they would pay in Britain.

Whether it is an original suggestion or not, my idea would be, if the time came, and bearing such a measure as the Undeveloped Areas Act in mind, that an area in Ireland should be scheduled to be free of death duties. That is original, if you like, but on examination, I think if we were to say that certain areas west of the Shannon, or describe them more or less on the lines of the undeveloped areas, were permitted to be scheduled by a Minister for Finance and legislation enacted here that no death duties should be collectible from people in such areas, it would bring a certain measure of prosperity to those areas. Possibly, I would put in a clause that where they were resident for a period of 3 to 5 years in the scheduled area, they would be free of all death duties.

That would have a two-fold purpose. As Deputy Costello said, it would attract the capital which we would not get otherwise and would also bring a certain amount of prosperity to these areas and to the villages and towns around them. I think this is worth considering. While I thoroughly agree that it should be the ambition of every Minister for Finance to do away with death duties finally, in the transition period, such a measure as I have suggested might be considered.

Another matter mentioned by Deputy Costello was the question of C.I.E. pensioners, a very important matter and a very interesting aspect of the remuneration of State and semi-state pensioners. I think I would be correct in saying—and I am not talking pre-1952—that any of the pensioners from 1952 on who are 70 or over would seem from a study of the Social Welfare Act that is to come into operation on January 1st next, to qualify for the £2 per week old age pension, irrespective of what pension they have from C.I.E. as long as they fulfil the statutory conditions—that since the age of 60 they are insured or have 156 stamps—at any time, broken or otherwise—in the whole of their working career. I do not think that is a very severe imposition but it can be debated, I am sure, in more detail on the Social Welfare Estimate.

With the greatest respect, Sir, I think it is the first occasion—I hasten to point out that I am not making any aspersion on the Chair—when I have seen the chief speaker for the Opposition after the Minister for Finance had concluded, speaking for a considerable period, his speech extending over nine columns of the Dáil Report. I understood the usual practice was that the Leader for the Opposition should summarise the main Budget proposals and offer his criticism on them, reserving his main comments for a subsequent date. We have had, so far, on this Budget two main speeches from Deputy Sweetman. Despite the two and a half hours during which he spoke, I do not think he proved very much.

Deputy Costello also spoke here today. He said that, perhaps, he could be permitted to be a bit egotistical and take a certain amount of gratification on behalf of himself and his colleagues, because of the fact that it was they who introduced in October, 1956, the export tax concession. Deputy Sweetman also made reference to that tax concession. Does Deputy O'Donnell think they were correct in claiming credit for themselves? Admittedly they did bring in the measure in October, 1956. It was I —I have, unfortunately, to give the commendation to myself—who suggested the idea of that tax concession in the first instance. I pay tribute to Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Costello for appreciating my suggestion.

We are always amenable on this side of the House to reasonable argument and reasonable suggestions. Let the Deputy not forget that.

I do not think the Deputy will adopt the same attitude when I come to finish. Speaking on the Budget on 11th May, 1955, as reported at Column 1264 of Volume 150 of the Official Report, I said:

There is no incentive whatsoever to industrialists in this Budget such as some tax concession. I am not speaking specifically now about the wear and tear allowance. I have in mind some tax concession for those who might be engaged in industry in the export line....

Where is there any remission in tax by the Government to exporters? I say that such a remission could be given. The Minister may say it would be a complicated issue to differentiate between the proportion manufactured by the concerns for home consumption and the proportion manufactured by the same concerns for export. There is the hope that this body which is examining indusrial profits, and so forth——

Deputy S. Collins, of happy memory, interrupted here to ask:—

Is the Deputy looking for an export subsidy?

I replied:—

All Governments are agreed that in this country it is necessary to bring down as much as possible the cost of commodities for export in order that we may become competitive in the export market. I am suggesting that, in order to encourage exports, the Minister should give such a concern a reduction in taxation, or some such thing...

Deputy Collins asked:—

Does the Deputy want us to sell dearer to our own people and cheaper abroad?

I replied:—

No. I have in mind a tax concession such as an income-tax concession for people manufacturing goods for export.

The Coalition Government introduced a measure along those lines.

Deputy Sweetman waxed eloquent to-day on the levies. He gave facts and figures which would suggest to someone not conversant with the true position that the Minister had in fact over the past few years changed the levies into permanent taxation. As even a first year student in Economics knows, that is the position. Many of the levies were incorporated in permanent taxation. Deputy Sweetman should in fairness have pointed out, however, that, whereas certain of the levies were as high as 50 per cent., the permanent tax is not on the same high level at all and does not bring in anything like the same revenue. As the Minister said the levies are being relaxed step by step. All we get now from levies per se is £1,600,000. Of the hundreds of levies originally imposed all that are left are 30.

There was a question here to-day about the Powerscourt Estate. Everybody is agreed that the estate should not be lost to the nation. The suggestion that it should be acquired by the Land Commission is scarcely appropriate. As the Taoiseach pointed out, the larger proportion of the land is scrub and mountainy land. We hear a good deal about the flight from the land. I am convinced that people leave the land for one reason, and one reason only: they cannot achieve the standard of living they would wish. All this talk by various leaders, political leaders and Church leaders, about the flight from the land and the denudation of rural Ireland is grossly exaggerated. I do not believe it is possible to maintain an adult family with 4 or 5 children on 30 or 40 acres of reasonably good land.

In passing, does it not "give one furiously to think", as Mr. Seán T. O'Kelly said on one occasion, when one picks up the paper on a Saturday morning and sees on the auctioneering page, in various parts of the country, 305 statute acres of good quality land, 525 acres of prime land; 146 statute acres, 374 statute acres, and 460 and 875 statute acres? We may be told this is not the type of land in which the Land Commission is interested. It did not evidently occur to those "dopes"—"dopes" they are and they will have to shake themselves up—that there are such things as stud farms and experimental agricultural farms. It did not occur to them that that tract of 854 acres could be broken up. Or was the land too good for someone to keep for himself and his wife in order to hunt from it? There will have to be a bit of revolutionary thinking on the part of those gentlemen in such cases. However, that can be expanded on the Estimate for the Land Commission.

Over the week-end I saw that Deputy Dillon, the Leader of the Opposition, and Deputy Liam Cosgrave made more or less the same speech in, I think, the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency. They made some reference; perhaps Deputy Michael O'Higgins or Deputy O'Donnell would tell us what it is about? Evidently they were referring to something Fianna Fáil were supposed to have told the people before we got into power about £100,000,000 and they were asking where that money was now. There is no scarcity of money.

Drum that into the Minister's head.

There is no scarcity of money for any project of a worthwhile productive nature, but there is a scarcity of worthwhile projects. Deputy O'Donnell still appears to be somewhat sarcastic and to believe that the Minister for Finance has difficulty in finding money even for productive enterprises.

Here is a very interesting aside. About a year after Fianna Fáil took office, I was approached by certain very important people in the City of London, representatives of Swiss banking houses whom I happen to know through a friend of mine. They said they wanted to offer the Irish Government £100,000,000. What I am saying, I am saying in the full hearing of the Minister for Finance. I took them on a courtesy call to meet the then Taoiseach, now President de Valera. He referred them to the Minister for Finance. These experts offered the Minister £100,000,000, not at an exorbitant rate of interest but at the ordinary rate. What was their reason? Their reason was that of all the countries in the world at that time it appeared to them—men of repute and of the highest standing in Europe— that economically, politically and socially, Ireland offered the greatest prospect of stability. We did not have to avail of that offer or of any portion of it, but I think it was a magnificent tribute to the financial standing of this little outpost of civilisation.

Deputy Sweetman made a rather extraordinary statement replying to the Minister's Budget speech on the first day. He said that one of the reasons the revenue was so buoyant was because of the seventh round wage increase. That is quite an original argument. That could be argued both ways. We did not hear Deputy Sweetman when he was Minister for Finance suggest when introducing his financial statement that any of the revenue accruing to the Exchequer in excess of the estimated amount in certain respects was due to the wage increase given under the Coalition.

He criticised us for the fact that imports were never higher. In his speech Deputy J.A. Costello pointed out that in the history of the State our exports were never higher. Yet Deputy Sweetman, having castigated the Minister and the Government and having stated that we never had such high imports in the history of the State, forgot to point out that one of the maxims of finance is not to condemn imports out of hand if the imports, or a good portion of them, are to be used for manufacture of a productive nature which will subsequently lead to the export or re-export of certain articles. Nor did Deputy Sweetman refer to the fact that 128,000,000 dollars were borrowed by the first Coalition under the Marshall Aid Programme and that we are now repaying that money in dollars.

We are repaying at present more than the land annuities ever cost this country. We know the trouble and political outcry at the time of the economic war which was fought on Fianna Fáil's assertion that the land annuities were illegally paid and that we should discontinue paying them. I think the figure was something of the order of £5,000,000 a year. We are paying a lot more now for the squandermania of the first Coalition on motor cars, petrol, wheat and so on. As the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party said at the time, no one would have the slightest objection if that 128,000,000 dollars had been spent on goods of a productive nature. Instead it was spent on wheat, maize, petrol, tinned salmon—all consumer goods. We have nothing to show for it. We have hardly one single thing to show for 90 per cent. of the Marshall Aid money.

We heard Deputy Sweetman suggest that this is one of the gloomiest and worst Budgets the country ever had. Are we to take it that the Editor of the Financial Times, the Editor of the Statist and the Editor of the Economist are all members of a Fianna Fáil Cumann? These are all independent financial experts who look on a thing objectively and do not pull their punches when there are punches to be pulled.

On the occasion of the University Vote I generalised on the subject of education. I was hopeful that the Minister might have devoted a little of his time to its very serious plight but he did not, and I am afraid I must criticise him for that. Possibly he is not the appropriate Minister to be indicted but I would wish very much for a revolution in the educational sphere. The Minister spoke about output in agriculture and output in industry but the unfortunate aspect about young people coming from school, young people still in school, and their parents who worry about what to put them on for, is that they do not know the answer. The Government should be in a position to say: "This is the number of jobs, or approximately the number of jobs, which may be available within the next five or ten years. Put your children on for this or this. These are the professions and skilled trades which are most likely to keep your children at home and be most beneficial to them."

The Taoiseach said that in 1955—100,000 jobs in five years.

I regret that no reference was made by the Minister to this subject. As I say, he might not be the appropriate Minister, but I hope something will be done because we are entering a very critical period with the advent of television. Goodness knows, I wonder is this country becoming less and less educated or has the generation growing up now any education at all. Do they ever read? Do they ever read the papers? Before this, they used to read books but now they are reduced to reading the résumés or précis in Time magazine dealing with pimps, philanderers, prostitutes, lesbians and such nostalgic subjects.

Why nostalgic?

Well, bawdy subjects. We do not know what is to happen the education of our younger people but I do think it is the Government's duty to take some co-ordinating action, be it in agriculture or industry, whereby the young people can see a goal ahead of them when they come from school and, indeed, before they leave school, at which to aim. At present young people are doing their examinations and qualifying in certain professions and trades, but they are not really safe when they do get their leaving certificates or matriculation, or train in technical schools, and do not know whether they will get jobs. In addition to what they know, it is a question of whom they know who can place them in a job.

Deputy Sweetman referred to the drop in revenue from the betting tax and I pointed out that, in my opinion, it was attributable to the fact that there were so many wet days during the recent season last year. I am sorry that the Minister for Finance does not take some action about the ramp which is taking place at present. I think the duty collected last year from the betting tax was £860,000. The ordinary person who subscribes that amount of money is the Irish taxpayer. The bookmaker did not give a "fluke" or contribute one iota to the tax and backers should be protected against the manner in which they are being exploited at present.

If I put a £1 bet on a horse and it loses, the bookmaker pays 10 per cent. on £1, and that 2s. goes into the £860,000. However, if I win, and the price is ten to one, I pay tax on £11 and the bookmaker still pays the 2s. on my £1 stake to make up this £860,000. The unfortunate Irish taxpayer is being fleeced and robbed but if the Minister for Finance, in his innocence, thinks that his £860,000 is being paid by the bookies, he is greatly mistaken, because, on the admission of one of the bookmakers' associations, if it were collected in full, it would be well over £1,860,000. That is an important point and I think it should be brought home to him once and for all.

I hope a day will come when someone will back a winner at five to one and throw back the money on to the bookmaker's counter and say: "Listen, buddy; you stopped the tax on £6 but you can only stop it on £1, my stake." The present arrangement arises from the Racing Act of 1945.

I am not going to suggest that the I.D.A. and Foras Tionscal are a dead loss, though I am not going to suggest they are a dead gain, either. I do not see where an industrial revolution is to take place if we are to have these bodies, no matter how competent they be, sitting up in Stephen's Green. Mind you, they have done magnificent work and I do not want to detract from them in the slightest, but if one wants something, one has to go out and look for it. We have had one individual flying around the States and I think that is ridiculous. It is all very well for the Minister to say that we have trade attachés in our various embassies, but in many of them our trade attachés and the ambassadors are the same people, and they have enough to do without going out to interview industrialists. What we want is a team of experts to travel Europe, the States and the whole world. I think every Deputy would support such a step in order to get a collection of men—even men at present in industry—pay them a top salary and send them out on behalf of the Government to bring industries to this country.

There is one thing I cannot understand. The price of butter in Berlin last week was 7/2d. a lb. We had the West Germans over here recently in connection with a trade agreement and we are looking for an economic market for our butter. The West Germans sell many more million pounds worth of goods to us than they buy from us. I presume there is an answer but I, for one, do not know what that answer is. I asked a German what the position was with regard to the admission of Irish butter to the German market and he said: "There is none". I asked one of the leaders of the I.C.S.M.A. He said that when prime Irish butter gets over there they cull it, they knock it, so that instead of getting 7/2d. a lb. we have to take a third-rate price for what the Germans consider third-rate butter. I do not say that that happens in every instance but it does happen. That is a responsible statement by one of the men of the I.C.S.M.A.

The Government or the Department of Agriculture should have a representative in these countries and should be present when Irish products are being tested. If butter is making 6/- or 7/- on the European markets there is something radically wrong if we cannot get into those markets, particularly when we buy so much from the countries concerned.

There is another matter which is a difficult problem for any Minister to tackle. A Government has a responsibility when a Minister for Finance appeals to the public to invest in a loan at a certain rate of interest. The loan may be floated at 98 or 96, redeemable at par in 1972 or 1982 and so on. It is quoted the following week on the Stock Exchange at possibly 101 or 100. Time passes and the Minister for Finance finds it difficult to get money and has to give a higher rate of interest in floating another loan. What happens the unfortunate person who answered the call of his country and invested in this so-called gilt-edged security, who wants to realise the investment? If he wants the money badly, as many people do, he is lucky to get £70, £67 or less. The capital investment is divided by two in possibly 18 months or two years. What is the solution? It is the responsibility of the Minister for Finance to find it.

A very interesting article on the subject appeared about six weeks ago, the writer of which had no definite solution for the problem. One solution might be to bring forward the redemption date. The loan, of course, is redeemable at par eventually and is acceptable at par for death duties, as a recent concession which is not applicable to all stock. There is many a person in straitened circumstances, through no fault of his own. Having invested, at the call of his country, in this so-called gilt-edged stock, he now finds his capital has been cut by 25 or 30 per cent.

Whatever Government issued the loans, the Minister has a responsibility to these persons. In addition to giving tax concessions and increased social assistance and other things, he should remember those people who were the backbone of our economy. If they had not subscribed in difficult times when we were depending on our own resources, we would be in a difficult position today. The only constructive suggestion that I can give to the Minister is to bring forward the redemption date by, say, five to ten years. Loan stock which is redeemable in, say, 1965 to 1972, which would be standing at about 75 today, would rise overnight if the Minister were to bring forward the redemption date in certain instances. The Minister may say that that is a physical impossibility, that there is a sinking fund and that so much is allocated every year. It is not my job to investigate that but it is my job to bring injustice and inequities to the notice of the Minister. I sincerely trust that the Minister will do something for those people.

Deputy Sweetman had the audacity once again to refer to housing and to drag my name into it and to wonder how I could sit here and how I felt now about the housing figures which he trotted out. He suggested that in 1955 and 1956 Fianna Fáil had castigated the Coalition Government throughout the length and breadth of the country before the by-elections and in this House on the grounds that they were not building enough houses. Deputy Sweetman's speech will be in tomorrow's paper.

Deputy Sweetman was completely wrong. The point then at issue, the point stressed by the then Taoiseach and those who supported him in the debate on housing in December, 1956, which was one of the main factors in bringing down the inter-Party Government, was not the number of houses being built—we were not criticising that—but the fact that money was not coming through. We pointed out that local authorities' credit had been exhausted with their own treasurer, which is the bank which gives temporary overdraft accommodation pending the arrival of the loan from the Local Loans Fund. That was the position. Our criticism was not of the number of houses being built or the amount of money spent on housing. Deputy O'Donnell was Minister for Local Government then and cannot deny that what I say is true.

As far as I can recollect, in his Budget Statement the Minister admitted that there was a falling off in the number of people employed in housing and attributed that, in the main, to the easing-off of the housing programme and the fact that, in many instances, the requirements have been met. I am sorry to say that I cannot entirely agree with the Minister in that statement. I could not accept it. There is an easing-off in house building. Take Dublin, Cork and Limerick as examples. The back of the problem of rehousing has not been broken in those areas. The very pertinent question then is, why is there a falling off in housing? There are two reasons. In March, 1957, which is not so long ago, the planning of housing had been brought to a standstill. There were no surveys being done of new houses. The local authorities' law agents were not taking the necessary steps to prepare the legal documents for compulsory purchase orders——

Thanks to the advice given to them by Fianna Fáil.

What was the advice given to them by Fianna Fáil?

To hold up these things. We begged them to go on with their plans and I shall quote word for word. We begged them to go on.

You begged them to go on with what?

With their planning.

We would have gone on with the planning but we begged you to give us the money and there was none forthcoming. We had reached the limit of our resources from our treasurers.

And then you closed down.

We were closed down. We closed down the whole issue and then came back and reopened it here. My point is that one of the reasons was that acquisition of sites was held up. Between now and next year, there will be a substantial improvement in the figures for housing, irrespective of what the Minister says. As I say, I do not agree entirely with him, but there will be a substantial improvement in the figures for housing.

Another reason for the delay is that most of the virgin land around the cities has been built on and it is only now that the local authorities are appreciating the absolute necessity of acquiring and building on derelict areas in our cities. As everyone knows, there can be 150 different owners and the title can be very obscure and very lengthy. Personally, I think the housing situation is improving but, nevertheless, I think the Government will be failing in their duty if they do not attack the whole question of the building industry and, irrespective of housing only, try to improve substantially the employment figures, and they can do that.

Last year, the Minister for Education said in this House that there was a backlog of over £2,000,000 in school building.

Why? How do I know why? The position is that there was this backlog of £2,000,000 in school building. Surely the Government have a responsibility to the second biggest industry, after agriculture. Surely the Government have a responsibility, if housing is dropping and if these schools are required, to bring forward the school programme. Mind you, it is not lack of finance that is involved because last year the Minister supplied a certain sum for housing and £1,750,000 of that money was not taken up. I am glad to say that that Estimate last year which was not taken up is, in fact, increased this year and that the Minister is realistic about it. Housing and other building generally will increase substantially.

I am glad, too, that the Minister has created a record this year for capital expenditure. There is a capital programme of £54,000,000 this year, which is an increase of £10,000,000 on last year, and is the highest capital programme in the history of the State.

The Minister for Finance is the custodian of the Local Loans Fund and the Parliamentary Secretary might be good enough to convey our wishes to him on his return, and he might deal with this matter when he is replying. When we came back into power in 1957, Deputy O'Donnell, in his wisdom, had confined the issues from the Local Loans Fund to the local authorities under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. The figure, which had been £12 per week was raised to £832 a year. That is not the family income. I could have two sons and five daughters bringing in £40 per week and if I had £832 a year, or less, and I wished to avail of the Local Loans Fund, I would qualify.

The Minister will have to be realistic because £832 a year is a completely unrealistic figure at the present time to permit people to avail of the Local Loans Fund. There is a very big social issue involved in this matter because someone might say that a man who had £1,100 or £1,200 a year could go to a building society or an insurance company. The stamp duty and the legal costs involved are prohibitive and there is a delay in obtaining any payment from an insurance company. The person would have to wait until the house was nearly finished. If anyone goes to the trouble of looking at the terms of reference, so to speak, of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts, he will see that they go back to the end of the previous century. The Minister must agree that the figure of £832 should be increased to at least £1,250 in order to enable people to avail of this concession.

After all, we talk of industries, and industry in Shannon and supplying houses there but there is not much use in supplying the houses if the loan facilities are not there. A person may have a salary of £913 or £1,020 and he would be outside the limit of the S.D.A. That is an important matter and it should be looked into.

Building generally is on the upsurge. The position is that we are facing, as I say, one of our busiest periods in the building industry, including housing. We shall not get back to the top figure in house building and the Minister is right when he says that much of the problem has been solved, but I disagree with him on the rest of his statement. There is going to be an upsurge in the building of factories, hotels, schools and universities in Dublin, and Limerick maybe. We want a university there, badly.

I should also like the Minister to tell us, if he has time: has the income tax gone on house property and valuation, entirely, or is it under a certain valuation or over a certain valuation? Deputy Costello made an eloquent plea today for the removal of death duties but I think this is far more important, if he wants to help the small man. The idea of paying income tax, when a man is put to the pin of his collar to save a few pounds to buy his own house and he gets an income tax assessment of five-fourths of the valuation under a certain valuation or over a certain valuation, should be done away with. The Parliamentary Secretary will admit that the amount accruing from that tax is not very great.

There is another matter, now that we are adapting ourselves and not any longer adopting an insular outlook. I cannot see why the Minister for Finance cannot admit the pools into Ireland. Let us be straight about it. We are not protecting Gael Linn or anyone else. We are putting our heads in the sands like ostriches. How much is going out of this country every week to England, to Littlewoods and Vernons and all the other pools? The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would not know because they make only a spot check. I shall not be such a fool as to address my football coupon to Vernons of Liverpool or Littlewoods. I shall address it to an accredited agent on the other side.

Some thousands of pounds are going out of this country. Why cannot we have pools here? It is the same as the Hospitals Trust, or is it that the Hospitals Trust are so powerful that they can suggest it would damage their scheme if we allowed football pools in Ireland? I do not think it would. It would be much better to have this money spent here at home and put to some good use in the building of swimming pools or playing fields for young people. I think the Government would be well advised——

Pools are run by some of the hospitals. They are run in aid of charities.

They have certain pools but, by the time Deputy O'Donnell's Government and the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Everett, were finished with the Gaming and Lotteries Act, you would not know what the position was as to the running of pools for hospitals.

Why do you not amend it?

We have so much on our hands. We have only cleared up the mess left by the Deputy's Government.

It looks that way.

That is wearing a bit thin now. The pools are doing well by it.

They would do better if they could offer £20,000 or £30,000 instead of the prizes being offered. I read Deputy Corish's speech the other night with great interest. He castigated the Minister for the miserable pittance of 1/- to the old age pensioners. That 1/- was given to other classes besides the old age pensioners. Blind pensioners, widows and noncontributory widows and dependants get it. I would remind Deputy Corish of the criticism of the Fine Gael Party and point out that they were the Party who not alone did not increase the old age pension but, on one memorable occasion, cut it by 1/-. Now we are being "slagged" and criticised for giving a paltry increase of 1/-.

It took you 31 years to give it back.

It did not take 31 years to bring in a contributory old age pensions scheme which was uniformly welcomed by all trade unions.

One could buy six pints for 1/- then.

Six pints often cost me more than 1/- but that is a long story. There is one little point I should like clarified. There is nothing like straight talking and straight thinking. We heard from Deputy Corish of the hardship of the increased price of butter. On one side, the Minister for Finance says the increase of 1/- would just about cover the increase in the cost of butter to these people. Right. We have not heard that refuted as yet or any substantial arguments against it.

Is it not about time we had politicians in this country who will not speak in a city with one voice and in a rural area with another voice? I think that, in the Book of the Maccabees, there is a statement which runs somewhat like this: "Those who run neither hot nor cold I vomit them out of my mouth." Admittedly, the price of butter has increased. So also have the workers, without any substantial rise in the cost of living, got an increase in income due to the increased buoyancy of the revenue, as Deputy Sweetman would refer to it, and due to the increased prosperity of the country as a whole.

We think, being a fair-minded Party, that if a section of the community, the workers, get an increase then the farmer is worthy of that increase, too. Somebody has mentioned the price of milk. We pay 1.3 of 1d. outside the Dublin area. That, I hope, is only the first of many such increases to the dairy farmers of this country.

One of the big mysteries of this Budget has been—I cannot answer it —why the Minister did not put another 1d. on the cigarettes. I do not know. Nobody would have felt it.

Take care. It might come yet.

We are not like Fine Gael. We do not bring in 3 or 4 Budgets in the one year. When we bring in a Budget it is for the whole twelve months.

You have just done so. Wait until after the local elections and we shall get another 1d. on them.

Sin deire an chláir.

I listened to Deputy O'Malley's quotations and various statements. I am afraid I could not agree with them all but I agree with some of them. He spoke about the building trade. I do, perhaps, know some little bit about the building trade. It has gone through the most terrible time in its existence during which builders failed all over the country and those engaged in the providing end of it failed in many cities in this country. I am glad to say that there has been an improvement in the building trade in the past few months but that, unfortunately, is not because of Governmental action. It has come about through buoyancy of revenue and better trade conditions during the past few months.

So it fails to be due to the Government?

That is the point I wish to make. There has been a slight increase but I do not really think it has been due to the Government. The tragedy of this Budget is that the Government had an opportunity to give concessions boldly to help trade and industry generally and employment. The Government pay lip service to private enterprise. If you examine what they do for private enterprise you will find they do not do a very great deal. Certain incentives have been given to industries which are engaged in exporting. I am very glad to see that happen. As Deputy J.A. Costello reminded the House to-day, the inter-Party Government started the idea of giving incentives to firms to export. I am glad to see it was effective and helped exports.

I personally wish to see something done for the ordinary run-of-the-mill business people in this country who are not engaged in exports. Everybody cannot export. It would be very nice if we all could export but the vast bulk of the trade in this country is concerned with buying, selling and manufacturing inside the confines of this State and those businesses find themselves almost crippled by taxation.

Our taxation leans very heavily on ordinary business. The allowances for fair wear and tear are not at all as generous as in Great Britain. The same can be said in respect of the allowances for improvements and so on. Businesses are so heavily taxed that they find it difficult to lay aside necessary capital to carry out badly needed improvements. As the House is aware, a very stringent view is taken of the difference between capital expenditure and replacement and repairs by the income tax people. I do not say they are unfair but they certainly exact their pound of flesh.

I should like to make the point— and this is my real quarrel with the Budget—that the Minister for Finance had an opportunity this year to help industry and business generally and, in that way, to give a great deal more employment, and to assist in providing more money and more jobs here and in the stemming of this terrible flood of emigration which is sapping the life blood of the country in many areas. I know many business people down the country who tell me there used to be many families in their areas to whom they sold goods but that now they are gone. That affects us all.

One of the reasons is that the high rate of taxation leaves business in a position in which it cannot put aside money for its own improvement and for necessary repairs to enable it to carry on. We are, as I said earlier, in this Budget giving slightly increased incentives to firms who are exporting but I would put this point very seriously before the Minister. There are many other firms not, perhaps, at present engaged in the export trade but who, if they had at home a climate of opinion for a lower level of taxation, could spend money on research and so on which could very well lead to an export business. The greatest exports—those of which Ireland is proudest; they are our biggest exports—are those of which were built up in the face of competition and which developed in the days when there was no such thing as Governmental help available.

I should like to see the level of taxation lowered so that people could build their business up to the position where they could become exporters but it is very difficult, unless you are handling new capital or handling a new business starting up in this country, to build up the necessary skill because plant, machinery and all those things have to be bought and paid for. It is very difficult to do all that, having regard to the present high level of taxation.

I, and many people likewise, believe that we are living beyond our means. Both private individuals and business people are cruelly taxed. Deputy Costello and other Deputies referred to the good that would accrue if death duties were abolished in this country. I believe it would be a good thing. It would attract an enormous amount of capital into the country and more would be gained than lost. At any rate, we are very heavily taxed. Firms and, indeed, individuals, who could play a far greater part in giving employment, are so heavily taxed that they cannot do it.

The Minister in his speech touched lightly on P.A.Y.E. Personally, I quite welcome P.A.Y.E. I think it will make taxation easier for many people, but I want to state that it will be a very difficult thing for many firms and companies to carry out P.A.Y.E. The Government have turned every employer of labour, who comes under the scope of P.A.Y.E., into an unpaid income tax collector. That is what he is.

The firm has to pay. I am thinking of one firm that I know of where the introduction of P.A.Y.E. will cost £1,000 a year extra. They will have to employ a skilled man to administer it. They will have to provide the forms and the notepaper. I understand that across the water a tax concession—a slight one—has been made to firms to compensate them for the extra cost which P.A.Y.E. imposes on them. Let there be no mistake about it, P.A.Y.E. does put quite a heavy burden on firms. If it is a very big firm, I suppose the burden is pro rata. Certainly in any properly run firm, nobody is running around with so little to do that he can attend to P.A.Y.E. as well as the work he has been doing up to then. Therefore there is this comparatively heavy increase in costs on every firm, and indeed on every individual who employs a certain number of people, and I would ask the Minister to look into the question of giving some concession to the firms in return for the fact that they are now to act as unpaid tax collectors for the Government.

As I said, we are living at too high a level. I do not want to see the standard of living going down—far from it—but we have too high a level of public expenditure and too much money is being drawn from the taxpaying source in direct taxation and this is not always being used as carefully or as usefully as the community itself would spend that money. That is hitting us through the lack of industries and business generally from which we suffer.

I do not want to go over the other aspects of the Budget but Deputy O'Malley referred to the articles that appeared in the Statist and some financial papers in England. The British economic and financial papers, I would say, with all due deference to many of them, have never been outstanding in their understanding of economic matters, not to mention other matters, in connection with this country. They are apt to look at these matters in the light of conditions in their own country, which are very different from ours.

We saw that in the British Budget they increased taxation in order to draw off surplus money, as they called it, and prevent inflation. We do not suffer from any surplus money in this country. We are not, in my opinion, in any danger of inflation. Our great danger is that we are always in danger of under-employment and we do seem to be just pulling ourselves up with difficulty out of the very serious economic conditions which prevailed here for the past few years, largely owing to the economic and credit squeeze which undoubtedly took place here. That situation seems to be easing off now so that I trust we are not in for any period of even a moderate credit squeeze.

As I said earlier, I welcome the slightly increased activity in the building trade but I would say, as Deputy O'Malley said correctly, that the increase in trade is not due to any increase in house building because the local authorities are not building anything like the number of houses they were building in the past. The problem of houses, certainly in the city of Dublin, is still, I regret to say, a very long way from being solved and I should not like this House to get the idea that the slums of Dublin are now a thing of the past. They are not and in spite of the enormous building that has been done in Dublin, the hard core of the problem has not yet been solved. Nevertheless, I welcome the slight increase in activity in the trade which is taking place at the present moment but it is not due to any large degree to Governmental help. I welcome the concession being given to hotel owners as an incentive to them to improve their properties. The Minister in his speech referred to the fact that thereby they would help the building trade.

In conclusion, I want to reiterate that whilst like everyone else in the country I am glad that further impositions were not placed on the taxpayer and on industry generally, I am deeply disappointed that reliefs were not given to those two sections of the community because they can play an enormous part in helping employment and in preventing the appalling emigration which is taking place from every district in the country. That can be very largely helped through private individuals and business. I do not think that business and the business community got a fair deal in this Budget. They are still being cruelly taxed.

There is an entirely different atmosphere in this House to-day from the atmosphere which prevailed in 1956 when we had the panic Budget of the inter-Party Government, if one could call it a Budget, and the special levies which were imposed in their last endeavour to find money somewhere to carry on. We are glad of that and we are glad that we have got to the stage when Deputies are in here looking for something for their own people instead of what we have been accustomed to. We find Deputy Costello making an appeal this evening for one section of the community and my regret in regard to this Budget is that the Minister did not take into consideration the difference between a widow's pension and an old age pension. It is an extraordinary thing that when she becomes a widow, she is entitled to, I think, 30/- a week but the day she reaches the age of 70, she loses 2/6d. Is it because when she becomes 70 she no longer needs 2/6d. or does not need to eat so much or something of that description? That is one thing which I regret was not dealt with.

When Deputy Costello was dealing with revenue and death duties, it brought to my mind a letter from the Revenue Commissioners which I have in my pocket and which gives an example of what happens when you have too many people doing nothing except poking around looking for something to cause annoyance to others. It is dated the 21st April, 1960, and reads:

I am directed by the Revenue Commissioners to refer to your call to the Valuation Office on the 3rd inst. in connection with the estate of the above-named deceased, and to state that he transferred it from the 16th December 1948 to his nephew. The deceased reserved certain rights in his own favour, a room in the house and his food and the said lands were to provide these rights. The lands were not transferred to the entire exclusion of the deceased and a claim for estate duty arose on his death in connection with the said land.

Because this man who transferred his lands to his nephew 12 years ago kept a room in his house and received his food there, the unfortunate nephew, 12 years later, finds that the Revenue Commissioners come along for the full death duties, although full transferred duties on the property were paid 12 years ago, not, mark you, death duties on what the uncle actually kept—his room in the house and his food—but the death duties on his whole estate under Section 11 (1) of the Inland Revenue Act of 1889 and Section 75 of the Finance Act of 1894. Those Acts were evidently in force a long time before we got rid of John Bull and why they should be enforced now in order to come down on an unfortunate man with a wife and children, to extract from him again the duty he paid as transfer duty when he got the farm transferred——

It does not seem to arise on the Financial Resolution. The Deputy is criticising the administration of an act which is not relevant on the Financial Resolution.

The Deputy is making an appeal to the Minister just as Deputy Costello did earlier.

The Deputy might get a more relevant opportunity of appealing to the Minister.

I suggest to the Minister now that he should get rid of about 35 per cent. of the civil servants —no one would miss them—and thus reduce the burden on the people of the country, people like the unfortunate man who feels the effects of their labours.

We have the luck to have as Taoiseach to-day a man who all Parties acknowledge is the best man in charge of industry we have ever had in this country. We are happy in that and in the results that have come from it. When I hear complaints about emigration and about people leaving the country, I can honestly say that I see none of it but I have seen some very strange things happen in my time. I saw £250,000 voted by this House, for instance, for the erection of a sheet mill and I saw that sum disappear and there is no trace of the sheet mill. Thanks to the efforts of this Government, employment in Irish Steel has enormously increased and the extensions there prove that we are to have a further increase in employment, but I suggest that when you go back over that, there is something wrong.

Back in 1936, we got the idea in Cork of manufacturing corrugated iron which was not then manufactured in this country. We sought the raw material, black sheets, in Belgium where we were told that through a cartel, trade with the Irish Free State had been handed over to the British steel combine. We then communicated with Krupps and after some difficulty got a quotation. Meantime, we had gone to the British combine and their price was £11 per ton delivered to Cork. Krupps' price was £7 10 per ton delivered to Cork—£3 10s. difference. When the gentleman, who was considered the best to make the corrugated iron afterwards, went to pay for Rushbrooke dockyards, he was informed by the then owner of Irish Steel that he would make black sheets for him at Haulbowline having got a licence to do so. That was in 1938 or 1939, a long time ago, and this is 1960. We now have the joke that the black sheets that Haulbowline had a licence to manufacture then are being imported into Haulbowline and are being turned into corrugated iron there.

This would seem to be a matter for the Estimates.

It is a matter of employment which I am discussing at the moment, with all due respect. I suggest that so long as you start work on any semi-manufactured article, those who supply it are going to bleed you of the same profit as they previously got on the manufactured article. If we are getting into the steel industry, we should start on the iron ore, bring it in and smelt it and go ahead from that. Then we shall be going somewhere and getting somewhere. We shall be able to export and compete with those who are at present smelting iron and doing what I suggest we should do. That would increase employment at Haulbowline by at least another 500.

I have heard it suggested by Deputy MacEoin that the industry should not be on an island but I have the assurance on that point of one of the very few princes of industry we turned out in this country, Christy Fitzpatrick. When he was manager of Irish Steel, he informed me that it was better and cheaper for them to run that industry on the island than on the mainland and he proved it to my satisfaction, whatever Deputy MacEoin may think.

I suppose when anything is prospering everyone wants to claim the credit. I suggest we should get to the foundation of industry. What is wrong is that we do not start at the foundation always. I suggest there is, too, an opportunity for more industries based on the oil refinery. We could get busy on those and stem the tide of emigration there. Haulbowline Dockyard is setting a headline which other foreign industrialists who come in here would be wise to copy. Indeed, I think pressure should be brought to bear on them to compel them to adopt the same attitude as Haulbowline. Our young boys should not be just the hewers of wood and the drawers of water for foreign industrialists.

Hear, hear.

That is what is happening unfortunately in the case of some of the foreign industrialists who have come in here. The Dockyard Company picked their young men from Cobh and the surrounding districts——

The Deputy is getting away from the Financial Resolution. The Deputy is mentioning matters which would be relevant on the Estimate. He should reserve his remarks until the Estimate comes before the House.

The Deputy, sir, is dealing with methods designed to stem emigration.

The Deputy should not imagine that by merely mentioning the word "emigration" he can make all this relevant on the Financial Resolution. He cannot do so.

Tomorrow is another day. I hope the matter I am about to raise now will be relevant. In the last 12 months we imported £1,921,000 worth of foreign sugar at a time when our factories here are curtailing the acreage of beet. We are very anxious about exports. We forget that we must pay for what we bring in, and we must pay the foreigner for it. I can see no justification whatever for importing close on £2,000,000 worth of foreign sugar. I am informed that it is brought in so that we can sell chocolate crumb to Britain. I have examined this matter. I have questioned the General Manager of the Sugar Company and the directors. I have gone as far as the British Sugar Corporation in an endeavour to get to the root of the matter. Whilst we have an agreement under which the British accept our sugar and sugar products on the same terms as they accept them from Commonwealth countries, they have an agreement with those Commonwealth countries under which they pay a definite price per ton for sugar, and the differential as between our sugar leaving this country for Britain and Commonwealth sugar leaving Commonwealth countries for Britain is £14 per ton.

That does not seem to be relevant on the Financial Resolution.

We are paying £2,000,000 for foreign sugar. I suggest that is very relevant on this Financial Resolution. We have heard a good deal about the recent trade talks. I suggest that differential was the first matter that should have been taken up with the British Government. We have appeals for production, and more production. We have foreigners invited in here to start industries and give employment. The only people who are curtailed and prevented from producing more are the agricultural community as a whole.

As far as my constituency is concerned, industry there is flourishing. I cannot say the same for Government policy in relation to agriculture. It is no good pretending I can. That is the first point. Secondly, when we come to balance our Budget, we should remember that we imported over £8,000,000 worth of foreign wheat last year. Side by side with that, we have been told that we shall be fined again this year if we grow too much wheat.

Details of agricultural policy would arise on the Estimate.

This is not agricultural policy.

The Deputy is discussing wheat.

The Budget consists of what comes in and what goes out. I am talking now about what goes out in cash, and it is something that need not go out. Last harvest, we were told we were growing too much barley and the price would have to be depreciated. We did not expect then that £2,000,000 worth of maize would be dumped into this country as has happened in the last 12 months.

The price of barley may not be discussed on the Financial Resolution.

I am comparing the treatment in this Budget of the industrial community and the agricultural community. I suggest to the Minister that steps should be taken immediately by the Government to relieve the agricultural community and I regret they were not taken in this Budget. Every year the rural people find themselves having to meet an increased bill on reduced revenue. Here are some examples of the bill they have to face. In 1953 rates were £14,000,000; to-day they are £20,900,000. Expenditure by local authorities has gone up from £37,942,000 to £55,487,000. Lest that would not be enough, they gave something to the coming generation. In 1953 we had borrowed £87,454,000; now we have borrowed £145,250,000.

When I hear complaints from the Opposition about the price of butter and about the flight from the land, I wonder if anyone has enquired about the reason for the flight from the land. I live in a fairly industrialised area. There not only the agricultural labourers but the farmers' sons are clearing out. Why? Because the price of agricultural produce is such that the wage of an agricultural labourer is £5 10s. a week. A man can walk off my farm in the morning and get a job in the dockyard at Haulbowline at £11 per week. Any young fellow who has only four healthy limbs, would be a damned idiot if he remained at £5 10s. per week. That is what is happening here.

There are appeals all round for people to start industries here but the largest industry in the country has been hobbled and hamstrung. You cannot grow more wheat, you cannot grow more barley, you cannot grow more beet. At the same time you are supposed to buy what the industrialist produces here. I am as anxious as anybody to see industry go ahead in this country. If we are to keep our people at home, we want a new industry in each town every ten years or an extension of an existing industry. That is the only hope of ending emigration. There is no hope of any flight back to the land. Any fellow who ever left the land is looking back over his shoulder lest it might catch up with him.

I think that to a large extent we have hamstrung ourselves, too. I do not approve of the policy under which boards are set up here to take over certain branches of industry. We find that nobody is responsible to this House for these boards. When I see £6,000,000, £10,000,000 or £20,000,000 being spent on industry, I think the House should have some say in it. I read with great interest the Taoiseach's statement about the adventurous merchants. I know of one adventurous merchant in Cork who exported goods to the value of something like £75,000 each year to Germany. Suddenly his trade dropped to £10,000. Instead of being sorry for himself he immediately went after it. He sent his manager and his son over to Germany to find out what was wrong. They found there was a change in the processing of the article he was exporting. He started off a little industry to carry out that processing here so he could continue exporting £75,000 worth. He went where the foreigners are going and sought a grant to help that industry. But a bunch of gentlemen here—the Industrial Development Authority—said, "No, you get nothing. You do not talk with a Polish or German accent." There is too much of that in this country to-day. That industry would undoubtedly have given employment to 40 or 50 men in a town that badly needs an industry.

I heard of the same thing in the town of Fermoy, through the same source. I can tell the Minister that the general opinion of Irish industrialists is that the Development Authority should be abolished. They are more of a menace than a help as far as Irish industry is concerned. I judge each body set up here by the results. If anything, that body is preventing the development of industry here. When a Deputy finds something like I found last year and the year before and puts down a question in the House, he is told the Minister is not responsible. Too many of those little Hitlers are climbing up here and forming a ring around themselves to dish out the Irish taxpayers' money, with no one to account for them. There is the same position with regard to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara.

That is more or less administration. The Deputy ought to deal with taxation rather than administration.

I am dealing with what we should be largely concerned with in this House—the drain of emigration, the stopping of unemployment and the provision of employment for our young people.

The Deputy might deal with that from the point of view of taxation rather than from the point of view of administration.

I shall deal with the taxation point.

I hope the Deputy will come to it.

To my mind a very large proportion of taxation could be very easily avoided. That is my personal opinion and it is an opinion that will not be changed. It should be possible to cut down the Civil Service by 30 to 40 per cent., and I think that would be the most popular thing any Government could do. When he first took office the Minister for Finance said he would do something about it, but I have been examining the numbers in the Civil Service and I see he has been proceeding very slowly. I remember how this difficulty arose. When the Emergency was over and we found ourselves with several thousand temporary employees they were all made permanent officials rather than dismiss them. At that time, nothing was done to stop recruitment into the Civil Service and we got 4,500 more civil servants than we required. In my opinion those 4,500 are still there and are being paid by the taxpayers of the country. It is time that was ended.

If we are to progress and prosper there must be an evening-up as between the rural community and the industrial side of our economy. I hear complaints about the export of butter but one must look back over a number of years to the time when the farmer last got an increase in the price of milk, and at the number of increases given since then to civil servants and ordinary workers, due to the rise in the cost of living. One should compare them and then ask oneself why should our largest industry be able to pay only a wage of £5 10s. a week as against £11 paid by industrialists? The industrialists are in the happy position of being able to pass on such wage increases to the consumers, and the farmer pays his share when he buys machinery and other manufactured products.

Those are matters that we need to consider when we are dealing with a Budget which is meant to review the activities of the year which has passed. There is room for a change, a fairly considerable change, and one that must be brought about. I think the industrial policy here is right and is working in the direction of providing employment for our young people, but I do not want industries hamstrung by finding they are paying as much, or more, for semi-manufactured articles as they previously paid for fully manufactured articles. The British do not mind whether they get their profit out of the black sheet that is brought into Haulbowline or out of corrugated iron. They get as much per ton out of the black sheet and that suits them very well. If we are to make that industry our biggest one in this country, and it should be that, we shall have to start at the very foundation, start at the iron ore, start smelting works, and if that is done there will be very little shouting about the emigrant ship, as far as Cork is concerned anyway. The opportunity is there; let us use it.

It is a happy change when we find an Opposition that can make no complaint about the Budget. Apparently I am the only Deputy who can make any complaint about the way it is being worked.

I would not be forced to intervene in this debate were it not for the opening and the closing sentences of the Minister's Budget statement. If he said anything worth noting, it is contained in the first four or five and the last four or five sentences of his very long speech. Anything in between—and there was very much said and read—meant nothing to me and I do not think it meant much to any person in the country.

He seemed to want to give the House, and through the House the country, the impression that the Irish economy was, so to speak, good. I say, categorically, that that is not the opinion of the people of the country, and, as a Deputy from a rural constituency, I find it my bounden duty to stand up here this evening and say to him that that is not so. I do not blame the Minister to the very great extent that, perhaps, those people do, because I am well aware that there is a feeling amongst the Government, indeed amongst all Governments, that Dublin is Ireland. There is no doubt whatever that there is a false sense of prosperity in the Dublin of today. Therefore, while not blaming the Minister to that great extent, I feel it only right that those of us who are more in touch with the country, and perhaps have a better opportunity of meeting country people than the Minister for Finance and other members of the Cabinet, should tell the Government what the country people think and feel.

I believe that this Government, from the Taoiseach down, are completely out of touch with the people. I have a suspicion that the Minister does not believe all he said but perhaps he does think that the country is on the "up and up." The plain fact of the matter is that it is not. Ask any business person in any town, any worker, any farmer or professional man what he thinks and you will get the same answer, that things are not what he would like them to be. From my limited experience as a very small businessman in a provincial town, I can tell the Minister and the Government that the opinion of all business people in that town is that money was never harder to find than it is at present. While that is the position, anyone who says that the economy is booming must be out of touch.

Even though the last harvest was good, the weather exceptionally fine and the harvest reaped in exceptionally good conditions, all business people in rural towns found it harder to collect money after that harvest than after the difficult harvest conditions of the previous year. Is there not something wrong when that is the case? We know the difficulties that the cattle trade is going through. In a situation in which the Taoiseach and his Ministers tell the country that everything is going well and the man in the street says that he finds it practically impossible to make ends meet, the Government must be jerked into a realisation of what is happening in the country. It is no pleasure for me or any Deputy on my side of the House to say that that is the position in rural Ireland to-day.

Deputy Corry, in his usual way, made several contradictory statements. First, he said that he could see no emigration. I presume he referred to East Cork. Later he said that he can see labourers and farmers' sons flying from the country. He was quite right, of course, in the latter statement. I, also, represent East Cork and I know that in the very towns to which Deputy Corry referred, Cobh and Youghal and, indeed, Fermoy, there is, unfortunately, too much emigration and vast unemployment. In those circumstances, how can the Government persuade the people of East Cork or of any other rural constituency that our economy is booming?

It is bad enough for a man to be down and out but it is adding insult to injury to suggest that he only thinks so, that he will be all right to-morrow. Such a suggestion does not improve his position. I suggest that as between the Government and the people there should be more frankness in regard to the difficulties that exist and as to the means of overcoming them.

As I have said, in the Minister's statement only the first and the last sentences are of any importance. The first sentences are important only because they paint a picture which does not, in fact, exist and the last sentences are important in that the Minister for Finance directs a homily to the Opposition as to the manner in which they should behave. He more or less suggested that Deputies of the Opposition were guilty of national sabotage because they criticised the failure of the Government to tackle the job which they were elected to do and promised to carry out. It ill behoves the Government to deliver a homily to the Opposition on behaviour and to charge them with national sabotage.

I am sorry that Deputy Corry has left the House because I want to say, and I ask him to deny if he can, that I and many people in East Cork heard him say in the last election campaign, to the people of the town of Castlemartyr, that the tea they had drunk that morning was not paid for, that the bread that they had eaten was not paid for. He tried to persuade them that we owed much money to the Government of Ceylon. He told them, also, that we had not yet paid for the flour they had on their tables. Was that national sabotage? I challenge Deputy Corry, any time, either inside or outside the House, to deny that he said those things in public, not only in one town in East Cork but in many. Then we are told by the Minister how we should behave and are asked to stop carrying on national sabotage.

Deputy Corry went further on the same day. To the people that he condemned here this evening and to a section of the people that he once called drones, he issued a warning. He said, in the usual Deputy Corry fashion, that if those people—referring to the inter-Party Government—"do not get the loan from Guinness, you will not get paid next week." He was talking, of course, to the civil servants. Was that national sabotage? All these things make me feel it my duty to intervene in this debate.

Having said that, I think we should take the advice of the Minister. His advice was needed here, as Deputy Sweetman so wisely pointed out this evening. I listened to him for two hours. It was the greatest education that I have got since I entered the House in 1953. He certainly put his facts and his case in a very clear way. He gave the Government credit for what he thought they had done well. There is no need for the Minister for Finance or any Minister to tell us in Opposition how to behave.

My main purpose in intervening in the debate was, as a rural Deputy, to try to jerk the Government into a realisation of what is happening in the country. There is no use in telling the people that everything is rosy when, in fact, the people know that that is not so. It would be difficult now for the Minister to change the tune on which he opened but would it not be a wise thing and would it not be a shot in the arm for the people if, before this debate is concluded, someone in the Government were to say: "We see our shortcomings; we shall do our best to correct them" and give some indication to the people that there is some future for them here?

I have not been here in the House during the course of this pretty extensive debate but, looking through the Official Report one thing is evident, that is, that the Minister for Finance in making his speech, his carefully delivered and possibly prepared economic statement, seemed, with other members of the Government, to resent any criticism. They seemed to be under the impression, as has been so ably put by the previous speaker, that everything in the country is beautiful, that our economy is right and that we are progressing towards complete economic stability and towards everything that is considered desirable in a country.

One must acknowledge at the outset that the balance of payments situation seems to be fairly satisfactory. What has really happened to help that, the only sign of encouragement that even economists can get from it—and economists are a happy, optimistic body—is that industrial exports have increased recently. It has been stated before, and it is only fair that I should state it again, that one of the main reasons for that is that the foundations of the policy leading to that development were laid by the predecessors of the Government. True enough, the Government carried out the policy. Among the wrong things they have done, that is one of the right things.

There has also been a considerable inflow of capital resulting from the same conditions. New industries have been set up here and, even in my own constituency of Wexford, a foreign factory coming in is bringing in a considerable amount of capital. All these factors help our balance of payments. Added to that, as was mentioned in the Minister's speech, a considerable amount of money was obtained from agricultural exports. I should like to point out to the Minister that the people who held their cattle throughout the winter, and fed them, did sell them but, in many cases, sold them at a loss. That, of course, from the economist's point of view is lovely. They are securing the necessary payments to keep our economy in balance but they are not making money. They are losing money, and that is not a sign of a healthy economy.

I acknowledge that the balance of payments situation is stable now and I have tried to show the House that really we owe nothing to the Government for that. A variety of circumstances have brought it about. The only credit the Government can take is that they continued the policy of their predecessors, that they encouraged an inflow of capital and encouraged exports. In other words, they got rid of the hard and fast outlook of Fianna Fáil all over the years that you can only flourish behind tariff barriers.

I shall come to the Budget now. The Minister found himself with some money to spare in this Budget. Again, the reason for that was the increase in wages, the seventh round, I think, which was denounced by the Taoiseach some little time ago. Those increases gave the country a purchasing power and that purchasing power increased the consumption of tobacco. There is no doubt that the Minister has had a very high and unexpected yield from tobacco duties. He has also retained, as Deputy Sweetman pointed out in his long and very able speech this afternoon, some of the special import levies Deputy Sweetman imposed. I might add that when he imposed the special import levies, there was a furore of indignation from the Fianna Fáil Party whose propaganda machine was functioning then on oiled wheels, just before they came into power, when they said they would create an Utopia in Ireland.

These import levies were imposed by Deputy Sweetman, as he said, to restore the balance of payments and the conditions he had to face were not internal conditions but external ones over which he had no control. He made it clear at the time that they were a temporary measure. However, the inter-Party Government went out of office then and they have been retained by the Minister. Those which were taken off as a gesture to the country— Fianna Fáil are always going to do something for the country—were put back again in another way and that enabled them to balance the Budget.

The Minister came into the House this year, having been three years in office, with the balance of payments situation pretty stable, and the balance of the Budget pretty normal, due to the circumstances I have just detailed. Surely he had an opportunity, with the huge majority he has behind him and with no worries about the Division Lobby, of offering some change of policy to the country. Is there anybody, even among the economists whose duty it is to advise the Government, who feels that our economy as it exists to-day is satisfactory? Surely the figures of unemployment, surely the many speeches which emanated from the Opposition benches, and even from the Government benches, must indicate to the Minister and to his advisers that the situation is not satisfactory. Surely the many Parliamentary Questions asked over the past year or so must make it crystal clear to the Government—Questions not only from the Opposition but from their own side— that the situation is not a healthy one.

Therefore, the Minister came into the House having had unrivalled opportunities to institute some sort of new policy. The other day, the Taoiseach spoke about free democracies. To my mind, in a free democracy, the Government free the people of taxation as much as possible by giving all the aids and all the supports that may be necessary to the weaker sections of the community. It does not mean controlling their daily lives. I do not see any change of policy in this Budget. I feel there is too much bureaucracy, too much control, too much taxation.

There are two ways of running a country. It can be run by easing the burdens on the people, leading to a healthy and free enterprise or it can be run by State control and State bureaucracy. In the position in which he found himself, the Minister could have given considerable reliefs in taxation. By doing so, he would have given the necessary incentives to industry and to agriculture.

Our annual budget for overall expenditure is not decreasing; it is increasing all the time. The Estimate for this year is for the highest sum the country has ever had to face. Surely, with conditions improving as they are, with the state of affairs outlined by the Minister in his Budget Statement in which he says we have better conditions than anybody else in the world, or in most countries in the world, I think he said—I cannot see it myself, but that seems to be the Minister's opinion—he could have taken a big step and relieved taxation. He could have removed many of the controls which exist, and left industry and agriculture to function by themselves in a free enterprise. Admittedly, the economic situation is difficult. Admittedly, the economic situation is bedevilled by the fact that there are changing economic conditions in many other countries to which we export, and with which we deal, but it seems to me that there is an entire lack of policy.

I would sum the Budget up in this way: "We find that we have got there all right; we find we can balance our payments; we find we can balance our Budget; we find, therefore, that our economy is expanding and for that reason let us go on as we are going; let us go on taxing the people; let us keep all the controls; and let us hope that with the buoyancy of the revenue, we will get there." That, I believe, is in the Minister's mind. It is the duty of an economist to advise the Minister. The Parliamentary function of a Minister is to size up the overall position.

A Minister conversant with facts should listen to the advice given to him by economists but he need not necessarily accept it. I do not want to say anything hard about economists. However, in most countries the position is that whenever economists have particularly prognosticated anything they have invariably been proved wrong. The Minister should have been able to sum up the situation from the advice at his disposal and from what he himself should know as a democratically-elected representative.

I invite the Minister to go to the constituency we share. It is the one he probably knows most about, as I do, too. If he looks around him there he must see that conditions are not satisfactory. He must note that in the four towns in Wexford there has been wholesale unemployment and emigration. In addition, there is a shortage of houses. The Minister said we have completed our housing programme. I had occasion to make a review the other day in the four towns of Wexford. It was intimated to me that somebody might be interested in spending money on building houses. In the four towns there was a wholesale demand for houses, not only for working-class houses but for better-class houses as well.

There is no use in imagining that if you introduce a Budget with just your balance of payments right or fairly right, with your Budget in balance, that is the end of the story. It is the duty of a Minister for Finance and of a Government to have a policy. In so far as I have had time to read through the different speeches from the Government side during this debate, the only shred of an offer of a policy came from the Taoiseach. He suggested we might have to change our economy. He suggested that we might have to go over to more of a horticultural line, to the processing of vegetables, and so on. I wonder how he ever came to think of it.

It should have been obvious to the Taoiseach and to the Government that circumstances are changing. Agriculture, the foundation of our economy, is facing its greatest difficulty. My view of this Government is that they are totally and completely out of touch with a realisation of the facts. It is fair to say, in spite of what our economic experts are writing about conditions being all right, in spite of what some newspapers are saying about them, that if the country were to get an opportunity now, the country would give the Government their answer and they would get the greatest shock if the people chanced to end their political lives.

I should like to close on one note. Every Deputy has the utmost sympathy for the old age pensioners. I think it fair to say that the old age pensioners, the blind, the widows and orphans, and so on, are absolutely above politics. I am glad to say that that has always been the case as long as I have been here. Does the Minister seriously consider that in a Budget statement in which he said the country is in a good condition he is treating the old age pensioners and the other social assistance classes fairly, those classes who exist on the bare necessaries of life, when he offers them an extra shilling a week?

The Minister must know that ever since his Government came into office there has been a rise in the cost of living. It would take too long this evening to go into the reasons for it. He must know that endless hardship is imposed on these unfortunate people. He must know that the purchase of butter is doubtful these days among those classes. Any shopkeeper in Ireland will tell the Minister that more margarine is being bought to-day than heretofore.

I am not a great person for statistics but I find that in the sections in which he is giving something to support these people who are less able to bear the hardships of today the sum made available to them is £450,000. The sum made available to subsidise the export of butter is £550,000. I am ending on that note.

Here is a Government prepared to pay £550,000 to increase the exports of butter. These exports were never necessary when we were in office because we subsidised butter. It was the best thing we ever did. Whatever mistakes we have made they were never like that. That is one good economic fact which we brought about. We kept the people in health and large families were able to eat butter. This Government did away with that.

Today, the Government are offering £450,000 as a beggarly pittance to the people who are hardest hit in the State in order to preserve them against the difficulties of life. However, they are putting aside £550,000—a further £100,000—so that butter may be exported. That may be economics. Economists are bound to give the advice they believe to be correct but it goes only to show that this Government do not fully understand facts as they are in Ireland today. Let them take another look at the situation. Budgets today do not mean what they used to mean. Certainly, we do not have one Budget in this country; we have two or three every year. The Minister and the Government should take another look at the Budget because I assure them that, in existing circumstances, if they were to face the country now they would get their answer.

I was very glad indeed to hear talk about the buoyancy of our economy from all sides of the House. I often wonder if we have the pride in our economy which we should have. I often wonder how our economy has stood up to the many knocks it has taken. Let us start with the period some 38 years ago when we first got our freedom after a very hard struggle. No sooner had we got our freedom than we found ourselves in the throes of a fratricidal Civil War. We moved on then. Peace reigned for a short time. We tried to build up our agriculture. I understand from reading the reports, that the then Minister for Agriculture was called "the Minister for Grass". We ignored him, we spat on him, we did everything possible against him. We then found ourselves involved in an Economic War.

I am not discussing the merits of either the Civil War or the Economic War but, as a result of that Economic War, we were advised to abandon our agricultural policy. We were advised that there was no future for agriculture in this State. We were advised to slit the throats of our calves. Then again, immediately afterwards, a world war occurred in which we were isolated. We were unable to import some of the necessaries of life.

Despite all that, changes of Government and everything else, we pride ourselves on the buoyancy of our economy. Really, it is something to marvel at, particularly when we point out that the reason our economy is buoyant is because of our agricultural exports—the thing we have done our utmost to kill down through the years, our mainstay and main industry. Thank God, we are now on the one platform. No longer is any person decrying agriculture. There may be a future for the State on that account. I sincerely hope there is.

To come back to the Budget, I may be wrong but my reading of it is this. First of all, and so far as the general public is concerned, cigarettes and tobacco have increased in price. Cigarettes and tobacco are now necessaries of life and their price has been increased. The price of butter, bread and flour has been increased. Bus fares have been increased and postage, telephone and telegram services have been increased—all absolute essential necessaries of life. What is given to Seán Citizen, the ordinary plain working man, be he employed or unemployed, to compensate for these increases? The sum of 1/- per week to the old age pensioner; a shilling per week to the widow; a shilling per week to the unemployed and a shilling per week to the blind. We are told that would compensate for all these increases.

Then, of course, we have this red herring of pensions of £2 per week when one reaches the age of 70 years. What utter codology! There will be an increase of 11/6d. per week. If one contributes for a period of ten years, the increase is only to be 11/6d. but for that 11/6d. the employer and the employee must contribute a sum of 9/- per week for a period of ten years. Deputy O'Malley said he thought that C.I.E. retired workers would now qualify for this retiring pension of 11/6d. Of course, they will not qualify because they have not paid the additional premium to qualify for it.

It should be remembered that the ordinary person reaching 70 years is entitled to a pension of 28/6d. but if you are in insurable employment for 48 weeks, with this additional premium, you will get an extra 11/6d. How can anybody call that a retiring pension of £2? You are entitled to 28/6d. and all you are to get is an extra 11/6d. for which not only you but your employer must contribute for a period of ten years.

Look at the number who will fall by the wayside. We are told in the Bible that the natural span of life is three score and ten. We are laying the adds against those who go beyond the natural span of life and giving them this additional 11/6d. provided they contribute very substantially to it. That is my reading of it so far as increases and benefits to the ordinary citizen of the State are concerned.

There are other benefits bestowed on individuals. For instance, there is a sum of £9,000 given to the dealers in tobacco. To the ordinary retailer of tobacco we are giving a present of £9,000. The tobacco licence, if my recollection serves me right, was 5/3d. I never heard tobacco dealers grousing about having to pay 5/3d. The retailer is not going to pass it on to the consumer. It is a mere fleabite as far as he is concerned but £9,000 is a fair amount of money.

We are to give £106,000 to the publicans by way of remission of licence duty. I wonder does the Minister for Finance take his colleague, the Minister for Justice into his confidence? We spent three weeks discussing the Intoxicating Liquor Bill on its Second Stage and in Committee. During that time Deputies from all sides of the House—there was no greater champion than Deputy Seán Flanagan—begged the Minister for Justice to give some relief by way of extended hours for Sunday trading to six-day publicans. What was his answer? His answer every time was: "Look, you have already got a remission of tax. They are paying one-seventh less duty than the seven-day licence holders. Why should they be entitled to trade on a Sunday? They are paying one-seventh less duty." But the Minister for Finance comes in and wipes the whole lot out and says that they are putting through a standard licence fee of £4 per year, whether they be seven-day licensees, six-day licensees or hoteliers.

What is the result? We are sitting here waiting for the Minister for Justice to come back with a redrafted Bill to the House. The Intoxicating Liquor Bill is now held up; and we are to let the tourists come here and the Bill will not come before the House simply because the Minister for Finance did not take his colleague, the Minister for Justice, into his confidence and tell him about this. If he had I have no doubt that the Minister for Justice, being the sensible man he is, would have given to the six-day publicans some means whereby they could have a seven-day licence.

Who asked for a remission of the licence duty on public houses? I never heard of any agitation for it. It will not be passed on to the consumer. The publicans will get £106,000— something they never sought. They sought longer hours and greater facilities for trade, but they never, as far as I am aware, sought any remission of the licence duty. We are giving them a present of £106,000, not a penny of which will be passed on.

We are giving £350,000 to the owners of cinemas and dancehalls. Not one solitary penny of that will be passed on to the public. There will be a loss to the State of £50,000 in death duties and a further loss to the State of £550,000 by the abolition of the special levies. One of the levies wiped out is the levy on tinned salmon. Have we abandoned all hope of ever canning our own fish? Tinned salmon, as far as I know, comes from Japan, and I think parts of Canada.

And China.

And China. Here we are making a present to these canners of salmon in these foreign countries who have no interest in our economy, no interest in barter with us and no interest in trade with us, whereas we should protect our own fishing industry. That is one of the levies which, when Deputy Sweetman imposed it, I had hoped and prayed would be turned into a duty and kept there to keep this tinned fish out of the country.

The total which I have just read out, of the benefits—benefits to no one in this country, other than those with proprietary vested interests— amount to £1,065,000. It costs the State £450,000 to give old age pensioners, widows, the blind and the unemployed 1/- of an increase. Here is a method whereby we could give them 2/- more, or an increase of 3/-, to try to compensate for the increase in the price of cigarettes, butter, bread, flour, bus fares, postage, telephones and telegrams. It would not have involved one additional penny in taxation.

The other night the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance asked where would we get the money to increase these various social services by one shilling. There is where we would get it. There is where we would find the money to increase them by two shillings, in addition to the one shilling which the Minister is giving. Who has asked for these remissions? Who sought them? If we all agree that these unfortunates will be hit by these increases, why did we not give them these additional two shillings instead of giving them to the manufacturers of tinned salmon in Japan, China or Canada, or to the cinemas or to the dancehall proprietors or to the publicans? Why was that not done?

We are told that the increases in the prices of cigarettes, butter and bread, and the increases in bus fares, postage and these various other charges, will impact heavily on the consumer and the ordinary citizen of the State. Do we realise the impact this will have on the rates next year? Do we realise that the taxpayers and the ratepayers in every local authority area will have to pay for the upkeep of patients in the mental hospitals, the district hospitals, the county hospitals and the county homes? If we are to increase the ration of cigarettes and the quota of butter, bread and flour of those patients who will pay for the increase? Is it not the ratepayer? Does that not mean an addition on the rates next year?

I find it difficult to understand the mentality of any person who can say that this is a good Budget. Before I pass on, may I say that we have had the seventh round of increases. May I make an appeal for one class which is being completely ignored and neglected, that is, the sub-postmaster class? It is scarcely possible to believe that in certain sub-post offices a yearly salary of £70 is paid to the sub-postmasters, out of which it is necessary to provide a room for the post office, light, heat and attendance. These are all essentials and when I put down a question, as I did on several occasions in regard to increases for these unfortunates, the answer was: "Oh, that is not their sole means of livelihood". Of course it is not. How could people live on a salary of £70 to £80 a year and provide these amenities?

We are also told that some of them have shops in their post offices. Is that not pure blackmail of the public? You go in to draw your old age pension in the post office and you are expected to buy something from the postmistress who is standing behind the counter. Why can we not give them parity with their counterparts in the Six Counties or in Britain? I would ask the Minister favourably to consider an increase to these unfortunates.

All they want is arbitration.

I know, but they are not getting it. I know some of them who find great difficulty in making ends meet. I know some of them who are in Mountjoy Jail today as a result of trying to make ends meet.

Who failed to make ends meet.

Trying to, but unfortunately not with their own money. We hear a lot of talk also about moneys being allocated to Bord Fáilte. There are at least 50 applicants to whom loans were promised in 1959 by Bord Fáilte who are ashamed to put it on paper that they have not got the money but who send their agents and servants to call on the applicants and say: "You must have patience; we have not got the money."

I do not think that would arise on the Resolution.

Certain moneys are being allocated for Bord Fáilte in this Budget and, with respect, I am entitled to mention the matter.

I still feel it is not a matter for the Resolution. It will arise on the Estimate.

The demand was so good the Estimate was overspent.

They have been told: "If these three big hotels which are planned go up, there will be no money for you." That is what they are being told.

Who told them? Fine Gael?

Bord Fáilte told them. I do not think the Minister can accuse Fine Gael of having loaded the dice in their favour against Bord Fáilte. I do not think that is true.

When it was a lie, I thought Fine Gael put it out.

I am trying to tell the truth and I know strong supporters of Fianna Fáil who have been promised a loan by Bord Fáilte and who, within the past six weeks, have received a verbal message to say that there is no money available for them.

I am afraid I must rule out discussion on that point.

I bow to the Chair's ruling.

I should like to know their names.

It was not Deputy Briscoe who said it.

I was amused to hear Deputy O'Malley saying that there is no shortage of money for worthwhile projects.

Jet airliners.

I often think of the Government's cheek and how they can get away with it. They got into office by telling us they were going to put 100,000 people into employment——

They did, in England.

——and the first thing they did was to introduce a Bill to abolish proportional representation and we spent almost 18 months discussing it. We had the country talking about it and when it began to die down, the Taoiseach thought out another very clever scheme. He said to the Minister for Local Government: "Will you go down and ask the local authorities to submit schemes of national importance to us?" What happened? The local authorities, through their county managers, called the councillors together—and paid their travelling expenses of course. I do not know how often they met but in my own county they met at least three times and they collected—I am subject to correction—54 schemes which were submitted to the Minister for Local Government.

They met only once.

To my own knowledge, they discussed it three times, and after the submission of all these schemes and after waiting for 12 months, the Minister tells them: "You have not submitted a worthwhile scheme."

That was not peculiar to Donegal.

I thought it was, because we have a Fianna Fáil county council with a Fianna Fáil chairman. Of course, I have the greatest respect for all Donegal men, irrespective of their politics. I know for a fact that the county council did submit schemes for the expansion of afforestation, the acquiring of land for division among adjoining tenants, schemes for the improvement of harbours, for the setting up of a glass industry where the raw material is second to none in Europe——

That would relevantly arise on the Estimate.

I think forestry is going pretty well in Donegal.

Let us not discuss forestry now but return to the Budget.

I am delighted to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that forestry is going well in Donegal, thanks to the inter-Party Government.

(Interruptions.)

I think it was in 1948 that we had the first change of Government for 16 years and when they took over about 400 acres in county Donegal had been planted—I think I am right in that.

The Deputy will get an opportunity to deal with that on the Estimate.

I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary refer the other night to fisheries. No doubt our fisheries are in a thriving condition at the moment; they are second to agriculture, in my opinion, and they assist the buoyancy of our economy.

In Donegal only.

I wonder what they would be like if we still had those three old German trawlers and were dependent on them.

Deputy O'Donnell is getting very far away from the Budget.

We never depended on those. We have beaten Dunmore East now.

(Interruptions.)

When I hear people talk here about how well off we are in this country, I wonder sometimes if we really are. We had the Minister and various members of his Party saying that we have more employed and less unemployed and less emigration. I would ask every person in the House to look at his own parish or townland and think is there more employment. Through the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, are there more employed in Deputy Killilea's constituency than in the days of the inter-Party Government? Is there less employment? I would ask Deputy Doherty who comes from a constituency like my own: is there less emigration in his area than in the days of the inter-Party Government? Pay no attention to what the Minister says or to what speakers on this side of the House say—let them ask themselves that question and they will get a true answer.

Only the other day, I understand, the Parliamentary Secretary pressed a button over in the west somewhere and flooded the River Moy. The Minister for Finance put this tax on butter and flooded the country with another Moy—Moy margarine.

I do not know whether Deputy O'Donnell got up to try to make me mad because if anybody could do so he would, with the tissue of falsehoods he put before the House. However, I shall deal with them as I go along.

Do not get mad like that.

No, I shall not, but Deputy Esmonde accused me of taking off import levies and putting them on in another way. Deputy O'Donnell accused me of taking off every levy and not giving something to the old age pensioner. That is the usual policy of Fine Gael—you will have it one way from one speaker and a different way from another, so that out of everybody in the country, some of them will be with Fine Geal. Of course, to talk about the policy of Fine Gael is the greatest joke.

Deputy Esmonde accused me of not taking off import levies in this Budget but we took off the tariff on industrial oil which the Taoiseach—he was not Taoiseach at the time when the levy was put on—said was the maddest levy ever put on by a mad Government. Now it is off and there is nothing on in its place. Remember that. The newsprint tax came off. All fruits were relieved of import levies this time. Clothing was relieved entirely of import levy and also furniture and razor blades and toys. I think Deputy O'Donnell when speaking on this matter added it up to something like £1½ million. That is about as good a figure as Deputy O'Donnell gave in his speech—it was about 50 per cent. incorrect.

I included the dance halls.

Whatever the Deputy included, it was about 50 per cent. incorrect.

It could not be, on the Minister's figures.

Deputy Esmonde said I could surely have relieved taxation in this Budget. I did. Deputy Esmonde, unfortunately, was not here and I do not blame him for that, but if he had read the speech—perhaps that is asking too much as I do not like reading speeches myself—he would have known that I did relieve taxation in the Budget to the extent of £2 million or, if you like to put the tobacco tax against it, £1 million. There was a net relief of £1,000,000.

Many Deputies spoke about taxation and expenditure reaching a high level. That occurs each year. Each year, it is higher than the year before and so far as I can see, with the tendency of things in this country and in every other country, that will go on every year, with no possibility of a reduction in the future.

To come to a more pleasing speaker, so to speak, Deputy Costello—he spoke on death duties as did also Deputy Sweetman. They said they would like much more to be done in regard to death duties than was actually in the Budget. I agree with that. I should like that also and I have every hope that, as time goes on, more may be done to meet the views of those two Deputies. One thing I want to say is that I do not know if some Deputies fully understand what the full advantage of taking off death duties would be. Some Deputies appear to believe that if wealthy persons come to live in Ireland, they are exempt from death duties. We must remember they are exempt only on assets in this country. Therefore, if we want to entice wealthy people here by low death duties, we must entice their assets as well as themselves.

I should very much like, in view of the very moderate speech made by Deputy Costello, to meet any request he made. In passing, I may say that he disagreed very violently with some of the Fine Gael speakers on some subjects on which he spoke.

Deputy Sweetman asked me about tobacco stocks. It is not a general practice when a duty is either increased or decreased to deal with stocks, the theory being that if a duty goes on, the person concerned has the advantage of the stocks; if a duty is brought in he has to put up with it, and that is all. He has to suffer the loss. In a few exceptional cases, tobacco stocks were taxed. I think I did it myself on one occasion and so did Deputy Sweetman. These stocks were taxed because we were hard up for money. I did not feel it was necessary in this case and that is why it was not done.

Deputy Sweetman referred to the increased revenue in 1959-60 as compared with the 1958-59 from motor car duty. He wanted to know if there was any change. There was no change: the same duty has remained since 1957. The aggregate parts coming in now are dearer than they were three years ago. There is, therefore, a bigger duty collected. It is true, too, I think, that last year the volume of imports was higher than in previous years, and, for these two reasons, the amount collected was higher than in previous years.

Deputy Sweetman, and others, made the point that the buoyancy in revenue last year was due to the increase in wages. That is a point of view, and I do not blame anyone for putting it forward. I do not, however, altogether agree with it, because, first of all, on the inland revenue side, as Deputies are aware, if a man gets an increase in wages in the last financial year, the revenue does not get the benefit of that until the current financial year. We could not, therefore, get any increase by way of inland revenue as a result of the increase in wages last year. Secondly, it must be remembered that these increases came towards the end of the year—some were given around Christmas, and some after—and the buoyancy in revenue had made itself apparent in or around the time the first wage increase was given. It may be true that the increase in wages had some influence on revenue towards the end of the year.

I was accused by Deputy Esmonde, and some others, of being complacent. I am not. I think anybody reading my Budget speech in an objective way would see that I was by no means complacent and that I was, rather, very anxious indeed that we should make further advances, and much more pronounced advances, in the years to come. I may have been a little optimistic but whatever overoptimism I expressed on my side was more than counterbalanced by the pessimism that came from the Opposition side of the House. In order to correct that pessimism it was necessary to be a little optimistic in dealing with the present position.

Deputy Sweetman also referred to the conversion of the railway stock coming due for payment about the end of June. The usual thing is, when a loan comes for payment, a conversion loan is brought in to meet the situation. Abnormally, if you like, in this case, when the last loan was floated last November, conversion terms were offered to the holders of this stock and about two-thirds of them availed of it. It would be normal practice to offer a conversion loan at the end of June but conditions, of course, will decide what the terms of that conversion loan will be. This is not by any means a new procedure in dealing with matters of this kind and I do not think it can create any undesirable precedent of the kind feared by Deputy Esmonde.

This debate has gone on for some days now. I do not think I exaggerate when I say that the greater part of the time was taken up by what I shall describe as the Fine Gael "ullagoning". We were given to understand by Fine Gael speakers that the country was never in such a bad position as it is now, that everything was wrong with our economy, and that Fianna Fáil had done nothing to put things right. I wonder could any Fine Gael speaker, examining his conscience, go back over his speech and tell me what suggestion he had to make to put things right. The only suggestion that was made—it was made fairly generally by all the Fine Gael speakers—was that Fianna Fáil should get out and, I presume, Fine Gael should be let in. The people would have something to say to that.

With regard to promises, I said before, and I shall say it again now, that I made no promises at the last election. I remember speaking at a meeting—I have said this before too— and I said at that meeting: "I am making no promise." After the meeting, some people came along and said: "Make us one promise. Promise before we vote for you that we shall never again see a Coalition Government in this country." That is the only promise the people wanted at the last election.

I am surprised to hear Fine Gael speaking about the benefits that flowed from the inter-Party Government because in recent pronouncements they have been making it very clear to the people that there will be no inter-Party Government again. They know they have no chance if they speak of an inter-Party Government again. I am not saying there is anything to prevent an inter-Party Government, but, as far as putting it to the electorate is concerned, they are very anxious to make it plain they are out for one-Party Government and that inter-Party Governments are dead and gone. It is a strange thing that, having come to that conclusion and published that as their aim in the future, they should now talk about the benefits that flowed from two inter-Party Governments here.

There was a continuous wail as to the state of the country generally. Really, what we had to listen to over the four or five days of this debate was an explanation from every Fine Gael speaker of the disaster they suffered at the polls in 1957. The explanation was that Fianna Fáil made promises. When it came down to hard facts, the one promise that emerged was that the food subsidies would not be abolished. Had anybody asked me the specific question at any meeting in Wexford prior to that election: "Do you intend, if you return to office, to abolish the food subsidies?", I would have said: "I do not." We had no intention at the time of doing any such thing. We did not realise the state of the finances of the country at the time. When I came in as Minister for Finance and had to prepare a Budget—this can be checked —I had to abolish the food subsidies. That gave us something like £6,000,000. I had to increase taxation. That gave us £3,000,000. I had to say that I would take a chance on £2,000,000 over-estimation. That was £11,000,000. When the financial year ended, there was a deficit of £17,000,000. That had to be met by way of deficit in that year.

I had no idea when I went before the country in 1957 that that would be the position confronting me, but Fine Gael knew that it would be the position. They must have known it. If I had been asked whether I intended to abolish the food subsidies, I would have said: "No," because I did not know what the position would be.

Put them back so.

£17,000,000 had to be found. Fine Gael talk, and have talked ad nauseam for the past three years, about the abolition of the food subsidies. They allege we promised not to abolish them. They allege we promised not to increase taxation. I should like some responsible Fine Gael speaker, if he thinks well of it, to tell us how he would have balanced the Budget in 1957, how he would have avoided abolishing the food subsidies, how he would have avoided increasing taxation. I suppose every Fine Gael speaker would claim that he would have done the job better than I did. If he did the job better than I did, he would have had to put on another £6,000,000 by way of taxation because I was £6,000,000 out at the end of the year. The total was £17,000,000. I should like some Fine Gael speaker to give us, some time or other, an idea of what he would have done had he been in my place in 1957.

This debate was on last week, but I went out to the Spring Show. Because I heard a lot of figures being quoted here I was very interested in some figures I saw at the agricultural stand there. I heard a lot of Fine Gael Deputies—Deputy Dillon and Deputy Sweetman amongst them—talk about the number of pigs in the country. I looked up the figures and found that in 1954 they were good, in 1958 they were good, but in 1955-56 they were at the lowest. You can see that in the graph; 1954 is up, 1958 is up, and in between there is a trough of low pressure into which Deputy Dillon could just fit too—and that was the time when he was in control. Yet he had the cheek to talk about the way the pig industry had gone in this country. It is true the figures were down in 1959 below the figure for 1958, but they were by no means as low as they were in early 1955 and 1956. I saw other figures there.

For emigration?

Give me a chance. According to the figures displayed there, I found we had the highest number of cattle ever and the highest number of cows, heifers and calves. Agricultural exports admittedly were down a bit in 1959 compared with 1958, but in 1959 agricultural exports were better than in 1955 and 1956.

That is not true.

The agricultural stand must have been wrong then if I am wrong. I was accused of deceiving the people because I did not mention in my Budget Speech the prices of certain things which had gone up in the meantime. I could not possibly go through all the various prices changed since the last Budget and I would not wish any Minister for Finance to do so. The cost of living index figure will appear in the middle of May. I do not know what it will be like. I do not think it will be as bad as Fine Gael would like to see it, or I do not know whether they think it will be low. However, let us wait for that and see what things will be like.

We have no control at present over the price of bread—or over bus fares for that matter—any more than we have over the price of potatoes, cauliflowers or anything else. It is true that the price of butter is controlled. Before the Budget came in the Government made an announcement in regard to the price of milk for the coming year. No Fine Gael speaker will say we should not have put up the price of milk. They are always agreeable to a thing like that, but they always find fault with where the money is to come from. No speaker has found fault with the increase in the price for milk. At the same time we announced that it was the opinion of the Minister or the Government that butter would go up by 3d. per lb. We did that before the Budget was brought in so that when the Budget was presented in the Dáil every Deputy would know the full position.

If we had not done that and had waited until the Budget was over, we would have been accused of waiting until the Budget had gone before making the change in the price. It is made now and any Deputy can find fault with it if he wishes. It would have been difficult but we could have dealt with the pound of butter in the low, mean way the Coalition dealt with the loaf on one occasion—by reducing the size of the loaf and leaving the price as it was. But we did not do that. We did not adopt the subterfuge of reducing the size of the pound of butter and saying: "You can have it at the same price." That is the type of thing Fine Gael would do if they were there. That is the sort of low, mean trick they would play on the people and say: "The loaf of bread is the same price as always. We watched that because we always look after the price of foodstuffs for the people." We did not do that. We told them that the price of butter would go up.

You increased the size of the loaf since?

I shall tell the Deputy everything if he will only listen. There was a complaint that the increases in postage charges were exceptionally made on this occasion and not during the Budget. That is not true at all. These charges have often been made before and did not coincide with the time of the Budget. As a matter of fact, the first time it happened was in July, 1948, the first time an inter-Party Government came into power. They were only there a couple of months when they did it. Therefore, they cannot say very much about it. They were not long there until they did it themselves in 1948. They increased the charges to bring them in £200,000 a year. That was not referred to in the Budget speech at the time. Again, postage charges were increased in January, 1951, before that Government went out. On that occasion the increased charges brought in £40,000.

It must be remembered also that last year, again outside Budget time, we made an announcement bringing down charges in respect of telephones in rural areas on which there was a loss to the Exchequer of £120,000. As far as I know, the aim of every Government since this State was established has been to make the Post Office pay for itself. From time to time when it looks as if the rate of revenue is not sufficient to pay for increased charges, postal rates are put up. On a few occasions, I think, reductions were made, but it is not easy to make a reduction and it cannot be made very often.

In 1948, after the Coalition came in, the price of milk was fixed on the 27th April, although the Budget did not come in until the 2nd May. There is no use accusing this Government of doing something unusual in view of the fact that these things were done by the Coalition Governments themselves.

We were also criticised because it was alleged we gave the impression to the people—I do not know what advantage we could reap from it—that the Budget would not be a good one. That was my fault. Deputies probably are aware—Deputy Sweetman definitely is aware—that about the end of January any Minister for Finance is fairly sure of what his expenditure will be for the coming year because the Book of Estimates has finally gone to the printers. He knows exactly what is in it and he knows what his current expenditure and capital expenditure will be. He knows also what the service of the National Debt will be for the coming year. Therefore, he is able to make up his expenditure very close to the final figure.

At that time, when I looked at the figures I saw that our expenditure would be very much higher this financial year than last year, and although the revenue last year had gone up a bit, it was not sufficient, in my opinion, to enable me to say that we could cover the increased expenditure by ordinary revenue. Therefore, I told the Government at that time that extra taxation was inevitable. I believe that the Taoiseach and some other Ministers made that public. I think they were entitled to do so. I do not see what is wrong with expressing our opinions to the people if things look bad any more than if they look good. To say we had some sinister motive in expressing that opinion is, of course, just nonsense.

Towards the middle of February, around that time and from then on, the revenue began to increase very much more, and by the end of March it had increased so much that we felt we were justified in budgeting for a higher revenue in the coming year, which brought the Budget almost into balance. The buoyancy of revenue during February and March was very welcome indeed, and we were very glad to see it. I can speak for myself, for the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party when I say we were delighted to see this buoyancy. I cannot speak for the other Parties.

But the Taoiseach——

None of the Deputy's misrepresentations. With regard to the question of employment, Deputy Sweetman drew attention to the fact that the Tables on employment were drawn up in a different way this year from last year. That is true but Deputy Sweetman said he thought there was a Ministerial finger in the pie. I do not think so but, even if there were, I am quite prepared to defend it, though I do not think any Minister interfered in that matter. There are two Tables, 16 and 17, and Table 16 deals with people at work in every occupation except agriculture. Table 17 deals with those engaged in agriculture. I want the House to mark the word "engaged". As we all know, there are a lot of people living on farms, not working full time but more or less engaged, because they are not down for any other occupation, and they are distinguished as being "engaged in agriculture" while the other people are "at work".

The data for the figures on which Table 16 is based are collected around April. As a matter of fact each of the last three or four Governments came into office about that time., February, March, April and May, and it is not stretching things too much to say if one takes the figures in April of the year a Government came into office, and takes them for April of the year they went out of office, they would be a fair measure of that Government's success in dealing with employment. On that basis, dealing with Table 16, from 1951 to 1954 while Fianna Fáil was in office employment actually went up by 1,400. From 1954 to 1957, when the inter-Party Government were there, the employment figures went down by 22,000 and then, from 1957 to 1959— we have only two years of Fianna Fáil Government for comparison here —they went down by 11,000.

Take Table 17 which covers agriculture, fisheries and forestry. The numbers engaged in them went down by 36,000 from 1951 to 1954 when Fianna Fáil was in office. From 1954 to 1957, when the inter-Party Government were in office, they went down by 27,000 and under the last two years of Fianna Fáil they went down by 13,000. If you add those figures together you will find the total combined during 1951/54 went down by 34.7 thousand. Under the inter-Party Government they went down by 49,000 and under the last two years of Fianna Fáil by 24,000. Study those figures and you cannot come to the conclusion that unemployment has taken place under Fianna Fáil and not under the inter-Party Government. If the Opposition do that, and see that the figures are right, I do not expect they will stick to the truth. That would be too much to expect.

The Opposition talked about the cost of living going up under Fianna Fáil. As I said, the various Governments came in around February, some in March and some in May, but if you take the mid-February figure for each Government as it came in, and the mid-February figure when that Government was leaving, you will find that in the three years of the Coalition Government, it went up 11 points. Under the three years of Fianna Fáil Government it went up by only nine points, and the food subsidies are included in that. The cost of living went up nine points under Fianna Fáil and 11 points under the Coalition, and the "short" loaf was included in their time. If, therefore, Fine Gael want to stick to the truth, and after all we must have the truth if we are trying to improve——

You would not know what it was.

——let them remember that during their last term of office the cost of living went up more than when Fianna Fáil were in office, even though the food subsidies were taken off.

Take the matter of balancing the Budget in 1954, 1955, 1956 and 1957. In the three years of the Coalition the total deficit was £7.9 million and in the last three years under Fianna Fáil it was £4.55 million.

And if you compare like with like?

I am going to do that. I want to add that the Fianna Fáil deficit includes the £6,000,000 of the first year we came into office, clearing up a position, as best we could, that was left to us by an incompetent Coalition Government. We were criticised then by Deputy Sweetman——

Come along.

——because we had put items on the capital side which should have remained on the current side, and expenditure vice versa. I have asked the officials of my Department to give me an amended Budget for the full six years, on the assumption that Deputy Sweetman could use the figures the same as I used them, though he calls it misusing them. On that basis the deficit under the Coalition Government for three years would be £3.46 million, and under Fianna Fáil would be £1.51 million. That is as far as balancing the Budget goes.

Will the Minister send me the details of that, and of how that calculation was made?

I think I can. Ask a question. That is the best way.

Certainly.

Will you be able to answer it?

I shall answer it.

We were criticised for not giving more to old age pensioners.

You forgot the Prize Bonds.

It was Deputy Corish who criticised us on old age pensions. He was Minister for Social Welfare for three years and he is a Labour Deputy, but he only gave them 2/6d. during the three years he was in office. We have given them 4/6d. in our three years, so what right has Deputy Corish to criticise us? The cost of living went up 11 points under him but it only went up nine points under us, yet he talks about how mean we treat old age pensioners. I do not think he has any right to say that after his own performance. There was another Labour man in the inter-Party Government but I shall not talk about his record. Neither shall I talk about Fine Gael's record on pensions, because the only time they formed a Government, back in 1930, they took a shilling off the old age pensions. That is their record and these are the people who criticised us for not giving more to old age pensioners. The old age pensioners will be better treated by us— that is certain—than ever they will be under any of these Parties.

Expenditure is going up, we hear. From 1956-57 to 1960-61, deducting £2½ millions from the 1960-61 figure, because I have estimated that we will save that much, it has gone up by £17.3 millions in that time. It is a lot of money—£17.3 millions. In that time debt services have gone up by £7.9 millions; Social Welfare by £4 millions; Education by £3 millions; Superannuation by £1.5 millions and agricultural subsidy by £1 million. I am making up the £17.3 million by which it has gone up, without touching anything else at all. There are many other increases—increases in pay for civil servants, apart from the particular Departments I have mentioned —because pay is not included there. We have not accounted for increases in pay, and so on. I must grant, of course, that the withdrawal of the food subsidies gave us money to meet these other matters.

I do not know if any Deputy will suggest that we should cut any of the items I have mentioned. I do not think he would. We cannot cut the debt services. From every Deputy who speaks, usually the criticism is that we are not spending enough on the capital side. Therefore, we must service that debt. There is no way out of that.

We have been criticised, as I said already, for not giving more on the social welfare side. We are giving £4 millions and, in fact, that does not include what is being given in this Budget. Education has increased a great deal. Superannuation cannot be helped and there are agricultural subsidies. These items account for that increase in expenditure every time.

Then take taxes. In our first Budget we put on extra taxation to bring in £2.9 millions and this year we put on a tax to bring in £0.9 million, that is £3.8 million altogether. Against that, we have reduced income tax in various ways, which is costing us this year £3.5 millions. We have taken off £0.69 millions Entertainments tax and there have been other reliefs, as I mentioned in my Financial Statement, of £1.29 millions.

Therefore, if you want to take a fair view—which, I suppose, I need not expect—of the performance of Fianna Fáil over the three years, they have increased taxation by £3.88 millions and reduced it by £5.48 millions, so that, on balance, taxation was reduced.

I have a note here of a statement made by Deputy Blowick, that none of the oil being relieved by a penny per gallon is used in agricultural tractors. In fact, there are 13,000 agricultural tractors using the oil that was relieved by way of duty.

There is another small matter in regard to the Opposition. Deputies expect me to pay tribute to Deputy Sweetman because, they say, he laid the foundation for settling the balance of payments in this country. I must express my opinion on that. I think Deputy Sweetman ran the ship of State on the rocks. There was no good reason for it at all but he did it and when he got her off the rocks and made provision that he would not run her on the rocks again, they expect us to congratulate him and say that we are very grateful to him for making this provision to ensure that she will not go on the rocks again. That is too much to expect.

He left you a good cargo—prize bonds and a lot more.

I do not think the Minister will find any economist worth knowing to agree with him.

The only thing I can be expected to do in a case like that is to make sure that the same skipper is not employed again.

You shifted the skipper. He is parked.

I was very severely criticised, commencing with Deputy Corish, for a statement I made at the end of the Budget Speech. I want to go back over it because I did go back over it after Deputy Corish's criticism and I should like to know now what is wrong with it. I said:

By the standards of four-fifths of the world's population, we are very well off.

I heard about coolies, Hottentots and all these other people. I was not looking down on these people when I made that statement. Other Deputies were, but I was not looking down on them at all. I was looking at the world in general when I said that. I made a rough calculation, if you like, put down countries I knew were better off than we were, countries I knew were worse off. It appeared to me that there were about four-fifths below the line, we were on the line and there was one-fifth above us. I do not see anything wrong with that statement. Other Deputies do.

I said, further:—

The great majority of our people are reasonably well fed and well housed.

"Reasonably well fed and well housed."

The conditions of life in Ireland are good.

We shall try to make them good anyway.

Our people have the safety and comfort of a peaceful, civilised society. Our real incomes and living standards are rising and last year's increase in national production was most encouraging. We are on the road to a solution of our remaining social and economic problems.

If we are not on the road to a solution, God help us, after these 40 years.

We have a name, and an influence, in the world which many larger countries do not enjoy.

There is no doubt about that.

Red China.

That arises because of emigration.

At every international conference to which we go the greatest respect is paid to our delegates, many of them being put into places of honour because of the respect there is for this country. I am just saying that because maybe Fine Gael might look back over their speeches in the last few years and try to be sorry for themselves.

Do you wear tall hats there?

The Deputy is suffering from political myxomatosis.

Deputy Russell asked me a question. He wanted to know why savings figures are not given separately for persons and groups, for 1959. That is not possible but later in the year these figures will be given, as they were given later last year. That is all I can say at the moment.

I have quoted what Fianna Fáil said and what Fine Gael said. Now I shall give a neutral opinion. The Statist says:

It says much for the improvement in the Irish economy that Dr. Ryan, the Minister for Finance, was able to present last week a Budget which, while balancing and providing for some worth while benefits for a wide section of the population, imposed only one slight taxation increase.

Later, it says:

To have done this at any time was a fine performance: to have done it at a time when the Government's ambitious Five-Year Programme for economic expansion is getting into its stride was a considerable achievement indeed.

It wound up by saying:

It struck a happy medium between over-confident expansionism and ultra-careful restriction and should prove just the kind of tonic the Irish economy needs at present.

I regard that as a useful paper but I am afraid, if it is not careful, Deputy Dillon will refer to it as Pravda, if it goes on like that.

I shall quote from O.E.E.C., which is further still away from us. I shall not be able to quote it in full. I had better go to the end.

We all know how that is made up.

Yes, of course. It is made up by some Fianna Fáil agent, probably, because it does not agree with Fine Gael.

The draft is written in your own Department, and you know it.

That is right——

It is. You know that for a fact.

Every paper in the world is controlled by Fianna Fáil, according to Fine Gael.

The draft is written in your Department.

The O.E.E.C. report on Ireland says:

The success of the Programme for Economic Expansion will depend not only upon completion of the specific projects it contains but also upon the maintenance of overall equilibrium in the economy. In particular great damage can be done to longer-term prospects by drastic restrictive measures which become necessary if the economy gets seriously out of balance; a repetition of the policy measures taken in 1955/56

—"a repetition"—

to correct the lack of external balance would be likely to seriously weaken the confidence in the economic future of the country which is being inspired by the adoption of the Programme.

I suppose I could quote a lot more but it is a Fianna Fáil organ—O.E.E.C. —and I cannot.

The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 45.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
This Resolution and Resolutions 1 to 10 come to by the Committee on 27th April, 1960, reported and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 11th May, 1960.
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