Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy Palmer.)

Mr. Dillon

I should like to make a few observations of a general character on this Estimate. I think the Minister should tell us from his experience since he introduced the new postal rates what burden he expects them to impose upon the community in the course of this financial year. We have got into a rather unfortunate habit in this House of imposing taxation under a wide variety of names, and so concealing the real burden of taxation that the people have to bear. The evil of this system is that when we call taxation by another name we forget that it is taxation and has to be paid by the people, and it is only on the occasion of the Minister's Estimate that we have any means of discovering from him what is the exact size of the burden that his particular taxation has imposed upon the people. I think it is very important for Deputies to realise that.

In respect of every other taxation the Minister for Finance is required to come before us and to give us an informed estimate of what he expects the taxation to yield and, at the end of the financial year, we are in a position to question him here in this House as to the result, the out-turn, of the taxation and compare it with the estimate that he gave us, and in that way maintain some check on the total burden the people have to carry. When we increase the price of bread and price of butter without recourse to the Budget at all, it seems that the charge that the people have to bear disappears, and when we increase postal rates, unless we raise the matter now and ask the Minister to tell us what the total measure of the burden is, we are very liable to forget that it has ever been imposed.

I, therefore, would like some information from the Minister as to what his personal budget, that he introduced before the Budget of the Minister for Finance, will raise from the people so that all of us, when we are considering the total taxation burden, can add the extra postal rates to the £1,000,000 which consumers have to bear through the increased price of butter, and to the charge they have to carry as a result of the increase in the price of bread, none of which is mentioned in the Budget of this year, or of the year before.

There is another matter that I want to mention. I think the Post Office is entitled to congratulation when it achieves reform and most of us will agree that, in respect of trunk calls between the city of Dublin and the city of Cork and provincial centres, the service has greatly improved over the last ten years. But, I am afraid that headquarters are only too prone to forget that there is a great deal of cross-country communication which is very important to people living in the country. One of the phenomena of the telephone service is that it is much quicker to ring New York from a town in County Mayo than it is to ring a town 12 or 15 miles away from where you are. I think it is a source of recurrent amazement to someone so unsophisticated as myself to have the experience of calling an American city from a country town in Ireland because, as a rule, you get it in a phenomenally short time and, as a rule, you can hear the person speaking as clearly as if he were in the next room But, what is absolutely frustrating is that after having that experience you simply call somebody whom you regard as your neighbour in the country and you discover that it takes anything from three to five hours to get through. There must be some serious flaw in the trunk system as between one provincial centre and another to account for that anomaly.

We are constantly talking in this House about capital outlay which is not self-financing and we are constantly being warned by the economists that capital outlay which is not self-financing has to be carefully studied to see can it be borne by the national economy. If there is one form of capital outlay for which the Exchequer has always received the fullest recompense, it is the trunk telephone service and it often astonishes me how slow the authorities are to add to the existing facilities because I believe all experience, not only here but in Great Britain and the United States of America, has been that the more facilities you provide, the more custom you get. I would urge on the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that he should not hesitate to press forward with the amplification of existing trunk facilities because nothing is surer than that these facilities will be abundantly availed of and I assume that if they are more and more availed of they will likely provide sufficient revenue to permit of a reduction in the charges and that will beget more business as well.

I want to make a suggestion to the Minister which I think is worth consideration. At present there is one rate for trunk charges in the day-time and after 6 o'clock there is a substantial reduction in trunk charges. I wonder if it would not be good rate and having a period, say, from the day, having the existing day-time business to provide three periods in 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. at the reduced rate and then having a period from 9 p.m. until an early hour the following day at a very much lower rate.

That would serve two purposes. There are a good many people who have to wait until 6 p.m. because in the ordinary nature of things they cannot readily afford the day-time rate and you get a considerable volume of business which comes on the lines between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. A great deal of that business, I imagine, could just as readily wait until 9, 10 and 11 p.m. If you want to have a chat with an absent friend or want to ring somebody up about a matter that is not of high urgency, you ordinarily wait until the day-time rate has lapsed and you can speak at the evening rate. A great many persons would be glad to wait until 9 p.m. to carry on conversations of that kind, if there were a further reduction and as the bulk of the trunk lines must be idle during that period, it seems to me that it would be a great relief to the trunk line capacity between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. to adopt that course. A great deal of new business could be generated if people got a really bargain rate in the late hours of the evening, of which they might avail. That is a matter to which I would direct the Minister's attention.

A question has been raised here about which all of us who are experienced in public life must know something. When the Post Office service was first started in the 19th century, there was a very different attitude everywhere to social obligations, and there were very few enterprises employing people who considered that they had any duty whatever to provide superannuation. There were no old age pensions. In fact, the thing that marked out the Public Service from all other services was that it did provide its established servants with a degree of security that no other employment offered and, of course, partly as a result of that, during the 19th century and the first half of this century, they drew into their service a vast body of men of very high calibre who were prepared to forego the higher reward of mercan-the life for the essential security of the pension rights which established civil servants enjoyed.

It is becoming abundantly clear now that the obligation to provide superannuation is so universal that that distinction between the Public Service and mercantile service is disappearing and it is becoming proportionately more difficult to draw into the Public Service the kind of men we want. We have had to advance and increase salaries steadily in order to get the right kind of men. In respect of the higher civil servants. we have sought to put that right by raising their remuneration. When the State was founded, a Secretary of a Department had £1,500 a year. Now some of them have nearly £4,000, for no better reason than that, if they had not, we would not have them.

In that process of evolution, one section of the Public Service seems to have been wholly forgotten, that is, temporary postmen. I meet men marching along the road and some on bicycles who are old enough to be my father and they are still temporary postmen. They are faced with the prospect that if they ever lay down the bag and hang up the bicycle they have nothing and, although they have given, in some cases, over 40 years' service, no provision is made for them at all. I do not know is legislation required to alter it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I was about to remind the Deputy of that.

Mr. Dillon

Is legislation required to alter it?

An Ceann Comhairle

I think so.

Mr. Hilliard

I understand so.

Mr. Dillon

You see, I used to be told that when I was Minister and I used to thump the desk and say: "I am going to do it under my general powers." Then there was a great "caffufle" and there were alarms and excursions and high civil servants would dash up and down corridors and the people in the Department of Finance would ring up. I said: "I will do it," and it was discovered that under my general powers I had the power to do it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will realise that if the Minister tells me it would require legislation, I must accept that.

Mr. Dillon

I am exhorting the Minister not to tell you that. I had a whole lot of fellows in exactly the same position.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has drawn considerable attention to it.

Mr. Dillon

Let me give a parallel. I had in the Department of Agriculture a whole bevy of men who had rather long service with the Department of Agriculture. They were all temporary. They were the old Congested District Board agricultural advisers in the congested districts and I remember this very question being raised. I used to be campaigning that it was a monstrous thing that men should be 40 years in the service of my Department and I had to face the day when I would tell them: "Goodbye. You are finished." Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Finance. I was assured that nothing could be done about it and after much thumping and walloping and insisting that I was blooming well going to do it, I do not know how it worked but, between the pair of us, we did it.

Mr. McGilligan

We gave them half service and they were established under the Minister's general powers.

Mr. Dillon

Having been told by all the authorities in the Department of Finance, all the authorities in the Department of Agriculture, who were just as sympathetic to these men as I was, that the thing could not be done, that we would have to bring in a Bill, we did it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could the Minister say more, if he wanted to, on that matter?

Mr. Dillon

All I will ask the Minister to do is: will he search his portfolio and see if something could not be done to meet this situation because I do not believe that any side of the House would deprecate such a development? One of the odd things is that you very often discover that you are told that something everybody wants to do cannot be done until two such men as myself and Deputy McGilligan got cracking and then nobody holds them back; it gets done.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not know exactly what the Deputy did.

Mr. Dillon

I established them.

Mr. McGilligan

And they fitted in under the Superannuation Acts.

Mr. Dillon

And, thank God, they are all now enjoying their pensions. To give pensions to temporary civil servants needs new legislation. That is not what I am asking the Minister to do.

Mr. Hilliard

Then we had better get together.

Mr. Dillon

We can relieve the Ceann Comhairle of all anxiety. I am not asking the Minister to do that. I am asking him to go through the category of civil servants in what are at present described as temporary posts and pick out the class of persons we all have in mind and establish them.

Mr. Hilliard

That is clearer.

Mr. McGilligan

And then they are superannuated.

Mr. Dillon

Then they will be caught in the machine and they will emerge with that degree of security that I think all Deputies believe they ought to have. If they did qualify under the Superannuation Acts, bearing in mind the rate of pay they earn they would not have such a princely income. I think it is very well worth the consideration of the Minister as to whether, in the exercise of his general powers — and let him never forget that magnificent and omnibus expression; it is the only moment when he becomes really lord of his own domain, when he announces that under his general powers he is going to do something—he can do that. I think he will be astonished if he looks into that aspect of the situation at how much he might be able to do to relieve a situation which I think demands the sympathy of all.

On the whole, the Post Office gives a reasonably good service and I like to give praise where praise is due because I think the Post Office is a very valuable example of public service. Few people know that under most modern Acts of Parliament a body like the E.S.B. or that kind of State body, acquires the most extraordinary compulsory powers. So far as I know the Post Office has no compulsory power. If they want to come in and put a pole on your property they must get your consent.

The miracle is that because they have laboured under that apparent disadvantage they seem to have acquired a technique of persuading people to give them the facilities without which they would find it very difficult to carry on. I think that is worth recalling to the House because I believe the comparison should be borne in mind and credit given to a Department which is doing without compulsory powers. We are frequently asked to give these compulsory powers and they can become a great burden on people down the country who are suddenly informed that a pole or pylon is to be put up in the middle of their property.

The Post Office, in my personal experience, approached me to put a pole right in the centre of my premises. At first glance, that appeared to me to be insane but after a certain amount of argument, persuasion and assurance that they were anxious to meet every conceivable difficulty that might arise if the pole went there, the pole is there now and has been for nearly a quarter of a century and it has not done anybody any harm. I never pass that pole without mentally saluting the type of public servant who can achieve that result by argument and persuasion without recourse to compulsory powers.

Mr. Briscoe

And with reason.

Mr. Dillon

Agreed, but if that pole had been put there under compulsory powers a quarter of a century ago I should still be referring to it as an instance of gross unreason and tyrannical, improper use of compulsory powers. The fact that the Post Office was required to renounce all right to put it there except by leave of the person who owned the property has resulted in the pole being there without ill-will from anybody. That is a very important thing because I know instances in rural Ireland where the E.S.B. or some other State-sponsored body who have acquired compulsory powers have improvidently used them, have created ructions in an area and have embittered a man to the point where he goes almost "dotty" agitating and campaigning to get that pole or obstruction removed off his land. Here, in Dáil Éireann that seems a remote and unimportant thing but those of us who know rural Ireland appreciate that it is not at all unimportant. It can make the life of a family a constant misery if a grievance of that kind exists.

The point I want to make is that it is possible to get 90 per cent. of these things done by the use of argument, reason and forbearance and the extra trouble to get them done that way is infinitely worthwhile. The fact that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has been so successful in doing that, not only in the case I have described but in many other cases, is a matter on which they should be congratulated. The interesting thing is that all of us who represent rural constituencies have had instances about almost every other Department that has occasion to enter on a man's land to instal a pole or an obstruction of some kind and yet, in all my experience of public life, I do not remember a single case where my help was invoked to restrain the Department of Posts and Telegraphs from doing something they wanted to do. That is something of which any Department of State has reason to be proud, not only for the achievement itself but for the example which it sets the whole bureaucracy which is so essential a part of a democratic administration.

Subject to the reservation I have mentioned I have no further comment to make upon the Minister's administration except that I want to know how much he expects to get out of the taxpayer under his extra charges this year. I should like to know whether he can do anything in regard to the telephone rate for late night service that I mentioned. I hope he will be able to say that under his general powers, with the co-operation of his colleagues, he will be able to remedy what every Deputy feels is an anomaly and an injustice to a large body of faithful servants of the public.

Mr. Briscoe

I listened with interest to what Deputy Dillon has said on a matter that I myself was about to discuss. I think that when he talks about the courtesy and the reasonableness with which the Department of Posts and Telegraphs approach the public in rural areas he might also have applied the same praise to urban areas. As I said, I intended, before I heard the Deputy, to refer to this because I think it is necessary to point out that the needs of a State organisation should always be met by discussions between Departmental officials and members of the public. I refer, particularly, to difficulties that might arise in the matter of the erection of telephone poles. There should be no necessity to impose on people, such as was done in certain cases by the Electricity Supply Board.

I should like also to refer to this new Transport and Power Department. I think that while it is naturally out of order to discuss either the Electricity Supply Board or this new Department, it might do some good to make a comparison between this Department and other Departments. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs can be congratulated that over a long period of years they have always had a fair and proper approach to the public in the matter of development requirements and so forth.

Deputy Dillon spoke about temporary postmen and what he felt should be done about them. He said that, when in charge of the Department of Agriculture, he had brought in all temporary officials and made them full-time civil servants, with all rights of pension and so forth. I think he overstated the case, because if one visualises the case of a temporary postman, who has worked in that capacity for over 40 years, one would find that to bring him into the full-time Civil Service would mean that he would have reached retiring age before he qualified for superannuation and other rights.

I would suggest to the Minister that temporary postmen adjacent to cities like Dublin, whether they be part-time or temporary officials with no other form of employment, should be given more remunerative jobs in addition to the delivery of letters. In that connection, perhaps, the Minister might find the time and the opportunity to examine the cases of part-time postmasters and postmistresses.

We have got to face the situation that, side by side with the attempt we are now making further to industrialise the country, greater demands are bound to fall upon the Post Office not only in the matter of letter delivery but on the other branches of the service, particularly in connection with telephones. We are moving far away from the time when the main part of this service dealt with internal communications. Telephone calls to places outside Ireland, some of them very far away, are coming more and more into vogue.

I have no complaint to make for myself, or on behalf of others, about the manner in which that part of the telephone service is now operating. I think we can all agree that there is an efficient and good service and that, generally speaking, the public can to-day say that they are treated with courtesy by the people who man the telephone service. But I do say that there are a great number of arrears in telephone supplies. I know that the list of such arrears is beginning to grow again. We heard during Questions this afternoon, for instance, that in Cork city there are more than 400 people still waiting for telephones but that due to the necessity to build a new telephone exchange the backlog could not be made up very quickly. There is a simple answer now to the demand for Dublin people for telephones; that is, that the lines are full and cannot take any more subscribers.

The Minister might have a thorough examination made of the position with regard to people awaiting the installation of telephones so that they might be supplied within reasonable time. He should also see that provision is made, in advance of supplies, for the means within the Post Office to deal with the increased number of calls. I do not think we are advancing sufficiently towards knowledge of the recognition of the value people place on having telephones in their homes, and certainly in their businesses.

I do think that there will be no great worry on the part of the public generally, particularly in matters of this kind, if there is a demand for increased money from them. We must start off with the realisation that workers, certainly those in State employment, are entitled to a standard of income that would give them a reasonable standard of living. The money must be found for this, and in the case of the Post Office it must be realised that every increase in service should be subsidised by the people. The people who benefit must, from time to time, bear part of the increased cost occasioned by an improved service.

I should like to say to the Minister that he should examine the whole system with a view to improving the services of the Department to the public in centres outside the urban areas. In the city of Dublin, for instance, one is never without the services of the Post Office because the General Post Office is there at all times and so is the telephone service. But there are places in rural Ireland where the telephone shuts down at a certain hour. These areas should be better catered for and I trust the Minister will see to it.

I think delays, particularly in relation to long distance and overseas calls, have practically disappeared. It is only very infrequently nowadays when you want to make a long-distance call that there is an undue delay. Accordingly, side by side with the improvement that has developed in the general services, I think the time has come when the Minister should indicate to his organisation that there should be more planning in advance. I know cases where big institutions wanted additional telephones and switchboards installed and they had to wait for long, long periods because these instruments were not available. The Post Office is supposed to be run on commercial lines. It should act commercially then, know in advance what the likely development will be, and be in a position to meet that development. People should no longer have to endure long delays waiting for the installation of telephones, or anything else. After all, every additional service brings in additional revenue and the Post Office should, therefore, be keen to ensure that their turnover is ever on the increase. The only way to do that is by anticipating the trend.

I agree absolutely with the tribute paid by Deputy Dillon to the Post Office for the manner in which they meet the public, particularly in relation to the installation of telephones. Their approach should be a headline to other State Departments where there is nothing, as Deputy Dillon rightly said, but arguments, threatened actions, disputes and, forever after, grievances that can never be rectified. The Minister and his Department deserve the highest commendation. Indeed, there is no tribute too high for the manner in which they operate.

With regard to temporary postmen, I do not see the sense of making permanent men who are just on the verge of retirement. Such men should be given better remuneration, carrying additional work if they are part-time officials. That consideration should be extended, too, to country post offices, where you have a shopkeeper acting as post-master or post-mistress for a very small allowance. When it is a post-mistress, very often the husband acts as temporary postman. The whole thing seems to be built on a very niggardly foundation. Something should be done to correct the situation. I do not know whether it is possible to appoint a number of extra civil servants, but, since the Post Office is run on commercial lines, as services increase so should the remuneration of the employees. There should be an examination into the rather antiquated treatment of some Post Office officials, and they should at least be improved in status and remuneration in line with what is customary today.

Mr. Russell

I should like to join with other Deputies who have spoken in paying tribute to the various services provided by the Department of Post and Telegraphs. In paying tribute to the staff, we should not forget that, in essence, they very often go outside the strict terms of their work by also undertaking work for the Department of Social Welfare and the Department of Finance to a considerable extent. This Department runs so efficiently that I sometimes think it is hardly necessary to have a Minister of State in charge of it. I am one of those who believe that the Department would operate just as efficiently if it were amalgamated with some other Ministry or left on its own as a semi-State body.

I should like also to join with Deputies who have appealed for better treatment of temporary postmen. There is a good deal in what Deputy Briscoe has said. Many of these men are reaching the age of retirement. We should not forget that in the rural areas, which carry the greater part of the population of the country, these old State servants are dying out. It will be very difficult to find replacements unless better conditions are provided as compared with those—I almost said "enjoyed"—suffered by many temporary postmen in the service to-day.

With regard to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, it is generally contended that these have another occupation, a drapery, hardware shop, or something like that. The country shopkeeper today is not in the same happy position as his or her predecessor who enjoyed a reasonable income. A reasonable income from a country shop today is a rarity. Anybody conversant with conditions in a country village will agree that it is no longer possible to regard the sub-post office as a reasonable source of income. In future the sub-post office will have to be regarded not as an adjunct to some business but strictly as a business on its own. That is all the more true when one remembers the rapid development in Post Office services all over the country.

In view of the encouragement of tourist traffic something more enticing will have to be offered to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses if the intention is to provide a service in the future. I speak now with particular reference to small post offices in seaside towns and villages. For three or four months of the year they have to provide a vastly expanded service. Special consideration will have to be given to these during the two or three months in which they work at very high pressure.

I wonder if the Minister would consider providing rural postmen with some means of conveyance other than a bicycle? I suggest a motor cycle.

I should like to refer now to a matter raised here on more than one occasion, namely, the new telephone directory. Possibly nothing can be done about the present issue, but I appeal to the Minister to give consideration to reverting to the former type of directory. In reply to a question here some weeks ago, the Minister said that the lettering in our directory is no smaller than that in directories in England and elsewhere. I suggest that conditions here are very different from conditions in England or any other highly urbanised industrial country. Many of these directories go into rural post offices and rural telephone kiosks. If we want to encourage an expansion in the use of the telephone in rural areas we at least ought to provide a directory that can be read easily.

I should like to ask the Minister to give his earnest consideration to speeding up the very necessary alterations in the General Post Office in Limerick. I know the Minister has the matter under consideration. In reply to a recent Question here he stated that these alterations would be carried out towards the end of the present year. Limerick General Post Office is one in which business has expanded enormously in recent years and I would ask the Minister to make a special effort, in the interests of the customers and the staff, to have these alterations put into effect as quickly as possible, in any event within the next couple of months.

As the Minister is aware, it is the practice in hotels to charge considerably more for a local call than that charged in call boxes and in a subscriber's own house. I do not know if the Minister can exercise any control over the cost of these local calls, but I suggest that an excess charge of 100 per cent., which appertains in certain hotels particularly in the city of Dublin, is excessive. If it comes within the Minister's power I should like if he would do something in the matter. I do not think it right to charge 6d. for a local call. I think a hotel or restaurant is entitled to charge something additional for the service provided but I think an excess charge of that nature is uncalled for.

I shall conclude by again paying a tribute to the service which the Minister's Department provides. We often fail to realise what a service we get. When we hand in a letter into a post office, be it in the North, South, East or West, within a period of twenty-four hours almost everywhere in this State the letter is delivered safely. It is a very great service and certainly one not enjoyed by many countries in the world today.

Mr. O'Donnell

If I may take up where Deputy Russell left off, I hope the Minister will not interfere in any way with hotels which make charges for local calls. We are inclined to forget that these hotels provide a twenty-four hour staff on their switchboards for the accommodation of guests in the hotel. If a person wishes to use the amenities provided by the hotel, I do not see why the hotel should have to provide these amenities at cost to themselves.

Mr. Briscoe

If there is a call box across the road from the hotel?

Mr. O'Donnell

That is what I should like to see. Adjacent to all such hotels there should be a coin box which could be used by people who did not wish to subscribe to the facilities available to them in the hotel.

A few years ago I suggested on this Estimate that some standard phrases should be used by telephone operators. Possibly through ignorance or lack of instruction, when we ring up we often get the reply from an Exchange: "What number do you want?" Some of us who have been abroad know that when that occurs in other parts the first question you are asked is: "Can I help you?" Here, if your time is up, you are generally told: "You must shut up now or I shall cut you off. Your time is up." There is a method of phrasing that. We are probably used to it. We do not mind. We know that they do not mean to be insulting but in the case of visitors— and, thank God, they are now coming to the country in larger numbers— they are——

Mr. Briscoe

They are intrigued.

Mr. O'Donnell

Possibly intrigued. However, if we had some standard phrases—possibly in both languages in certain parts of the country—that would be of considerable attraction to people using the telephone who are not used to our possibly abrupt methods. Again, there is the difficulty of a Northerner trying to make an inquiry from the telephone operator in Kerry or Cork. Possibly, if there were standard phrases, he might be more easily understood. The Minister might look into the matter. I am not complaining of the manners of telephone operators; they leave nothing to be desired. The suggestion, however, might be of some assistance.

I do not want to stick out the sore finger again, but within the past twelve months I have raised the question here of the salaries paid to sub-postmasters. I make no excuse whatever for raising it again. In reply to a question of mine the other day, the Minister informed me that the minimum salary paid to some sub-postmasters was about £80 per year. Do we in this House realise what a sub-postmaster must provide for £80? He has to provide for office accommodation, the cleaning of the office, the fittings, the fuel and light, the stationery, the pen and ink, and an assistant. If he does not provide the assistant he must remain on duty himself for twelve hours or, if there are extended telephone services, for fourteen hours per day. And for all those services he is paid the sum of £80. Do you know that he does not get even a half day and he gets no annual holiday? However, if he has an assistant, he has to pay that assistant, and rightly so, a minimum wage, provide him with a weekly half holiday and with an annual holiday—something he has not got for himself.

I know the answer the Minister will give me is that it is not their sole means of livelihood. That may have been true years ago. I recall a story told about the West of Ireland. When one of the Selfridge family was visiting there he called in to the local shop to buy a packet of cigarettes. The local postmistress said to him: "I understand, Mr. Selfridge, you are in business yourself?" On making a reply, he was asked: "How do you find business these days?" He said: "Not too good." The rejoinder was: "Have you a post office? If not, you should get one." That may have been true in the old days, but it was pure blackmail. At that time the sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress had little shops where they were allowed to sell tobacco and other small groceries. They are not permitted to have any business they like; certain businesses are debarred. The old age pensioner coming in for his pension was told: "Go to the far side; we have no change here." You had no option but to buy the groceries. That was in the bad old days when competition was not so keen as it is to-day.

These unfortunate sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, and I have had the unhappy experience of defending some of them, deal with large sums of money, work 12 to 14 hours a day, and provide accommodation, fuel and light for a miserly pittance, the method of calculation of which has not being revised since 1908. It is calculated by a most obsolete method. The amount of work is assessed in units and the number of these units represents the work of 12 months. That work is then converted into a cash equivalent. That system has not been revised since 1908.

Mr. Briscoe

In spite of increased rates.

Mr. O'Donnell

Yes, in spite of increased rates. These people do the same work as is done in the head post offices, but the head postmaster is a Civil Servant with pension rights, and holidays with pay. He is doing the same class of work, though not the same amount of work, as these unfortunate sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. In some cases, in post offices in the west and north-west, they handle thousands of pounds, which is money remitted by migrants in the form of telegraph money orders. If there is a loss they are responsible. Unfortunately, they usually employ young girls and train them for this work. These young girls are paid a very small sum and are sometimes tempted to take something out of the till. No matter what is taken or lost the sub-postmaster must make it good. I would appeal to the Minister to set up some sort of arbitration board to give to these unfortunate people the same privileges as are accorded to the postmasters in the post offices, to give them some rights. I ask that they be given some increase in their salaries related to the expenses and the responsibilities which they must incurr.

I should like to join with the various Deputies who have spoken in connection with the pay given to temporary postmen. I do not know the mechanics or whether it is possible to make them permanent or give them superannuation. When they reach the age of 70, they are thrown out of employment. It is really tragic to see a man of 69 years of age struggling round his beat or his rounds on his push bicycle. Probably, they are too old to adapt themselves to a motor cycle or an auto-cycle, but some effort should be made to give them more facile means of transport or some better method of getting around. It might be possible to supply them with auto-cycles in the near future. If the Minister could see his way to do that, it would be a considerable advantage and help to them.

Again, I would ask the Minister to instal more stamp machines throughout the country. There was an archaic custom by which one had to have a licence to sell stamps. I am not certain if that regulation is still in force but did anybody ever know of anything so ridiculous? They have to pay for the stamps before they can get them for resale. If these stamp machines could be set up in reputable shops or public houses in the country areas they would be under the supervision of the owner or the occupier and they would be of great assistance. We have them here in this House and we know the advantage of them when they are working.

There is also the difficulty about the establishment of letter boxes in rural Ireland. I know the cost of setting up these boxes and I have personal experience of approaching the Minister's predecessor who said that the cost of setting up one box would be from £15 to £20. It would be a cheaper method if we could set them in the doors of school houses throughout the country and the local postman could call and collect the letters from them each day. It would cost nothing to put them up and it would be a great advantage to people living in the rural districts as it might save them from having to walk half a mile or a mile to the nearest letter box.

I would also ask the Minister to do something to smarten up the uniforms supplied to postmen. I do not mean that they should be smartened up at the expense of the comfort of the postmen. They look to me as if they were ready-mades and dished out irrespective of the measurements of the individual. It should be possible to have uniforms made to measure for these men and all weather equipment supplied to them.

I had not the opportunity last year of speaking to the Estimate introduced by the present Minister. I should like to join with the other Deputies in complimenting the officers of the Department on the manner in which they handle the business of the Department and to couple with that compliment the name of the present Minister. I have received nothing but courtesy from him. I know many of the requests we make are impossible of fulfilment but it is a grand thing when we know the reason that they cannot be fulfilled. From my experience of the Minister he always makes clear to us the detailed reasons a project in which we are interested cannot be proceeded with.

Mr. Kyne

I should like to join with Deputy O'Donnell in paying tribute to the courtesy of the present Minister and to congratulate him on his report of the working of his Department for the past year. It is satisfactory to note that this all-important service is improving. Unfortunately, most of us who talk on this Estimate do so usually to voice the complaints that we feel we are justified in making. That is a good thing in itself because unless the complaints made to us are brought to the Minister's attention, so that he in turn may present them to his officials, there would be little chance of their being remedied.

In regard to mail deliveries in Dungarvan, County Waterford, I have reason to believe that letters which arrive from Dublin in the town of Waterford at 11.30 in the morning are not transmitted to Dungarvan for at least four or five hours. Consequently business people and householders get them at approximately 5 o'clock in the evening, which leaves them little over three-quarters of an hour to digest and frame an answer to what might be a very important business or personal communication. I am informed that a mail car service could be provided about 1 p.m. in Waterford city and, if that were used, letters could be delivered much more speedily to Dungarvan, which is the county council centre of the county and is the next important town to Waterford city. Dungarvan could then have a proper delivery of the Dublin mail at a much earlier hour than is the case now. That is, of course, for the second delivery of the day.

The local urban district council have issued a protest on this matter, and also on the question of early morning deliveries in the suburbs of the town. Scarcely 200 yards away from the post office, letters are not delivered until approximately 11.30 a.m., and these are letters which arrive in Dungarvan post office around 7.30 a.m. That, I suggest, leaves room for improvement and I would be glad if the Minister would have the whole question of the delivery of mails in that town investigated.

I would suggest to the Minister that the establishment of a number of post office telephone coin boxes in rural areas should be part of general policy. Usually when Deputies put down questions as to whether the Minister will consider establishing a coin box in a particular area the answer, if negative, is covered by an accompanying statement that the Post Office feel it would not be justified from the point of view of the revenue to be collected from the box. That might be quite true and I am quite sure most of the coin boxes would not give a sufficient financial return to justify them economically, but I suggest to the Minister that the Post Office has a bigger responsibility than justifying its existence by the amount of money collected in these boxes.

This is a public service to the rural community and such boxes are used in an emergency to summon a doctor, or a nurse in a maternity case, or in an extreme case of a man dying, to summon a priest to administer the Last Rites. I do not think that the measure of money taken in a box should be the yardstick to decide whether or not a coin box is necessary in a particular area. Even if a loss is sustained, that loss should be carried by the Department's Vote, as many other services of the Post Office have been carried in the past. I am sure the Minister is aware of this problem from his own personal experience. I would ask him to examine it and see if something more could be done to expand the service, particularly in what are known as the mountainy areas which are difficult to traverse by cycles and motor traffic. At particular points in such areas coin boxes would be of terrific advantage to the rural community.

I would join with other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to examine the case of rural postmen and to assist them, whether by means of increasing their present wages, or by the method suggested by Deputy Dillon, of making them established servants. I am not able to say which is the better method but their position at the present time is a sorry one. When a rural postman retires after long and faithful service he gets nothing but a certificate from the Minister of the value the Post Office has placed on the services he gave. If he is in a desperate plight, I understand that there is a fund to which he may make application and get a small lump sum in an extreme emergency, but that is not quite good enough for a man who has given long service. I understand these postmen cannot be compared with men who have entered the service by public examination, or who have been promoted from the ranks of telegram boys into established posts.

One recurrent complaint to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention, is that on occasion the Post Office officials act as tax-gatherers for the Department of Finance. When dutiable parcels arrive in Dublin very often they have been damaged, broken up, and then sent on to the addressee. To my knowledge all attempts to secure redress meet with evasive answers and statements that the damage did not happen in Ireland and that it probably happened somewhere else. Even when it is brought to the attention of the Department that their own answers have incriminated them, the person making the complaint is still refused admission of the fact that such things do happen. I brought one instance of it to the Minister's own attention and showed him an article so damaged coming into this country. It is true that the courtesy of repairing it was done me but I know of many other cases in my own town and county where parcels arrived in an open condition, with articles of clothing missing, and no redress at all has been secured.

I would suggest that there is considerable room for improvement in that particular section of the Post Office and it would be well worth the Minister's time to pay very special attention to it. It is deplorable if things sent through the custody of the Post Office authorities can be rifled without redress or satisfaction. I felt very disturbed by the one investigation I undertook into this matter, and I am quite sure that, if I had pursued it to its logical conclusion, I could have proved where the damage had occurred. Sooner than go to all that bother and expense I was quite satisfied to accept the minor concession I was offered.

I should like to agree with Deputy Dillon in advocating an increase in the number of stamp-vending machines but I would also like to agree with him that they are of great use only when they are full of stamps. Unhappily it has been my experience on repeated occasions that I have put money into stamp-vending machines to find to my amazement that no stamps came out. On complaint being made I was calmly told: "I suppose the stamps were run out." I am referring to these machines in urban areas; surely it is the practice that they are mainly used after Post Office hours when the Post Offices are closed?

Surely it would not be impossible to have a sufficient number of stamps put into the machine each evening which would more than cater for the needs of the public? There should be some method of checking the machines. Nobody wants to go to the post office for a refund of threepence but, on the other hand, nobody wants to pay threepence and receive no value for it. Apart from not getting the stamp required, there is a loss of threepence in endeavouring to secure it. That has happened to me on at least eight occasions. It should not happen and people are dissatisfied when it does.

I would suggest to the Minister that the amount of business in the post office in the town of Dungarvan, where I reside, has increased so much that there is urgent need for up-grading the office. There is urgent need for a new building. There is a saying in the district: "Where the post office stands and is about to fall." That is the literal truth. The building is derelict. It is hundreds of years old. The Department are endeavouring to secure a site but the methods they are employing mean that we shall be all old men before there will be a new post office in the town. I had occasion to meet two of the Department's inspectors who were sent down to purchase a site from the local authority, of which I am chairman. The county manager and I met them and, in the interests of the public and for the convenience of business people, we were quite prepared to give a site at as reasonable a figure as possible. To our amazement and amusement, the offer was so fantastically low that neither of us had to think a second time about refusing. If that is the system and if it is to continue, the likelihood of ever securing a site for a post office in the town is very remote.

I suggest to the Minister and the Post Office authorities that they should treat the matter in a much more serious manner than that. Ample sites are available. There is certainly a need for a post office, the existing one being totally inadequate from the point of view of the staff and the public. On a busy day the place is crowded and people cannot get inside the door. There is a counter about 10 ft. long and there may be one hundred people present, some endeavouring to secure a widow's pension, others wanting postal orders, others wanting stamps or trying to have parcels weighed. It is impossible for the assistants to give the service which they are paid to give.

I conclude my remarks by paying tribute to the post office officials in county Waterford and throughout the country. They have a difficult task, whether they be office staff, counter staff, telephone exchange operators or postmen delivering letters. The post office staff, on the whole, have proved themselves to be excellent servants. One hears complaints of the public being ignored by post office counter assistants. Such complaints are like the stories about the Scotsmen being mean. If there are complaints—and some of them are justified—sometimes it is the layout of the building that is the cause, or the method of staffing the office. On the whole, our post office assistants give excellent service. Postmen delivering mail in all types of weather—inclement, cold and warm —are cheerful, courteous, trustworthy and excellent in every respect.

Mr. Loughman

I should like to join with other Deputies in paying tribute to the Post Office servants and officials. We have come to regard them as the most courteous and efficient group of servants in the country. Certainly, they deserve all the very nice things that have been said about them here this evening.

I should like to say a word about Deputy Kyne's statement about stamp slot machines being supplied in rural areas. The Deputy was looking for something which it is practically impossible to secure and which, strictly speaking, is not necessary. Postmen delivering mail in rural areas call at practically every house. They carry stamps which they will sell to people who want them. The cost of providing stamp slot machines in every rural area would run into millions. From my experience of these machines, in very damp weather the stamps stick and it would be necessary to have a man in constant attendance to remedy defects. The supply of stamps is the least of the country people's difficulty.

I was very interested in the question of auxiliary postmen. Auxiliary postmen are employed for varying numbers of hours per week. I certainly would wish, if it were possible, that these people could be established but because of the way in which their services are required, sometimes for a short period in every day, it is practically impossible to establish them. I understand that when an auxiliary postman is employed for a certain number of hours per week he can be established. In my opinion, a postman whose hours reach a number close to the required number could be given an additional area to serve in order that he could qualify for establishment and benefit by that fact. I have in mind a postman who, if he had one extra half hour per week, would become established. It is a great hardship that when readjustments are being made in the area where such a person lives an extra half hour could not be added so that he could qualify for establishment.

I know the Post Office is very sympathetic in regard to the matter which I shall now mention. In some cases, young lads going into the Post Office as clerks for the first time are kept in their home towns. That is very valuable to their parents and to their people. At other times they are sent to other towns. These young people do not mind that as a rule but there are cases where the lad is the son of a widowed mother, or where there are other circumstances, in which case it would be a wonderful boon if the boy could be kept at home. His wages would be worth twice what they would be worth if he had to live away from home. I have known cases where persons who had expressed a wish to remain in their own town with their people have been sent to other towns. If that could be remedied it would be a wonderful thing.

As far as sub-postmasters are concerned, we are all very anxious that everybody should get concessions and the bigger the concessions the better we would be pleased. We are very conscious also, however, that it would cost a tremendous amount of money to meet all our wishes and that when you came to provide the money there would be a lot of grouses about either the increased postal charges or the taxes required to meet it. When Deputy O'Donnell was making the case for sub-post offices I think he gave us the figure of the minimum sum which a postmaster or postmistress would get. He mentioned £80 but I think some sub-postmasters have salaries that go into several hundred pounds. If he did not concentrate on the minimum when making his case I think, perhaps, that he would have done better. Perhaps, if the sum which would be required to give these people what would satisfy Deputy O'Donnell had to be paid, the Post Office might consider that it would not be worth having a post office to cater for the people in that area and that situation would be worse.

Deputy Russell asked us to regard the case for sub-post offices as if they were on their own, and to treat them simply as post offices. That would also mean that the number would have to be fewer; I think it is best to have them as they are. If it were possible to increase the amount given to them I should be very happy about it but it does not seem to me that they do too badly, taking into consideration the great number of people who come to Deputies when such an office is vacant. My experience is that I am under pressure from all sides to try to influence the Minister or someone to get the post office for them and that is true even in the case of very small offices. People who want the appointment come to Deputies because they think that Deputies can do something about it. That leads me to believe that, bad as the picture that has been painted here would appear to be, people regard them as very valuable when they become vacant.

I heard Deputy Russell suggest that something other than a bicycle should be provided for the auxiliary postman. I suppose it would be very good if the motor cycle he suggested did not have to stop every 20 yards. Personally, I think that the bicycle is by far the best form of transport for the auxiliary postman. I know many boreens and places where a motor cycle would be an embarrassment rather than a help to him if he had to use it. Besides, I suppose many of them are not anxious to have to control motor cycles or whatever type of motor transport is envisaged. Again, if we did rise to providing some motor transport for auxiliary postmen, I feel the number of such postmen would be reduced. We often hear in the Dáil about the effect of motor power and machinery in displacing labour. I believe if we bring in motor cycles to take our postmen on their rounds the number of men required will be reduced and the machines will replace labour.

I suppose there is not much use in asking the Minister to reconsider at least one of the postage increases referred to to-day. I always felt that what is known as imitation printed packets should not be considered in the same grade as the ordinary letter. Every organisation, many of them not very well financed, political, social, athletic, all send out that form of packet very frequently. I remember a time when it cost only a ½d. per packet. It is now 2d. and it involves a pretty heavy cost to send out 40, 50 or 100 of them. I would be glad if the Minister would review the situation in regard to that service. Every organisation in the country would welcome a concession of that type. Finally, I should say the Post Office deserves the thanks of every citizen for the wonderful service it has given the people through the years.

Mr. Lindsay

I do not know whether it is because the Post Office works quietly and efficiently and generally is unnoticed, because its work has become such a part of our everyday life, that this Department has come to be regarded in ordinary parlance as one of the junior Departments and therefore relatively unimportant, in comparison with other Departments. I think such a conception could not be further from reality. Certainly it is very far removed from the truth. I think the Post Office service is probably the greatest service we have in that it caters for communication orally, by telephone, written, by letter, or the speedier means of telegram and such modern inventions as the teleprinter and the telex system. All these things have been brought to us by efforts which we do not readily perceive and consequently cannot so readily appreciate. We take them for granted. The Post Office is a means of communication; it is the poor man's bank; it does a lot of social service jobs for those who receive social service benefits; it is the place where most things that affect the daily lives of the people are executed.

I think the most outstanding thing about the Post Office service is the extremely high standard of honesty that prevails in it. Sometimes, when we read in the papers or hear of somebody being suspended from the Post Office service, either a postman or a person in charge of a sub-post office, we are far too much inclined to throw up our hands in horror and be appalled that such a situation could come to pass. But it is always possible to think of the vast number of people engaged either as postmen or as sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses whose records have been of the highest integrity and the greatest standard of honesty. That applies not only to particular members of a family but to whole generations where post offices have passed on from one member of the family to another.

I think that is something of which we must feel really proud. If one examines cases where people had to lose post-offices through the fact that money was missing, one will find that it was not always true to say in all those cases that there was any criminal intent. A great deal of it was due to carelessness or lack of knowledge. In other cases it was due to people in the employment of the persons who owned the post offices. Still more were due to the ordinary human frailty of hoping some day to make up the loss, meanwhile applying the money to some personal purpose through what might be termed foolishness but could never be regarded as criminal intent.

All these have been punished by losing the charge of the post offices concerned or by being dismissed from positions as postmen and so on. However, by and large, if you examine this problem from a statistical point of view, you cannot fail to be impressed by the prevailing honesty which is almost universal throughout the country. Mind you, the temptation is great, and I do not speak entirely in terms of money, say the robbing of postal packets or embezzling moneys lodged in a post office.

I should like to mention another thing equally important from the point of view of the general public. It is the care taken to preserve the ordinary decencies in relation to the secret business of people dealing with post offices—secrets that must become obvious to postmasters, postmistresses, and often to postmen. Rarely if ever will one come across a person being warned or advised of other people's secrets, either by telephone or ordinary letter communication. That is a side of the postal service of which we must be proud. Sometimes we may hear of a person overhearing conversations on the telephone. But that is not due to carelessness on the part of employees but is usually due to the occasional flaw in the very sensitivity that one must attach to an instrument like the telephone.

Tributes have been paid to the courtesy of the people engaged in the whole of the postal service. I think those tributes could not be too high. I would go so far as to say, from my own personal experiences standing in post offices, big and small, that sometimes I marvel at the patience and forbearance of people behind the counters who are being lacerated by members of the public whose complaints have neither rhyme nor reason. We hear all too often about the official who may be guilty occasionally of taking somebody short. But do we not all do it at times? We cannot expect all our officials to go around wearing badges saying they are blessed with the patience of Job. It cannot be expected in the human make-up.

On the question of telephone operators, I have heard complaints about delays. I do not think that all these delays are caused by flaws in the system. Subscribers may from time to time be ignored in the best office during a period of duty and I agree that that is a matter into which some inquiry might be made. Where you have a complaint of delay in getting through from a local office to the main exchange, you will find that there is a human reason rather than a fault in the system.

For the operators in Dublin I have just one thing to say. It was generally noticed by the public a few months ago that there was difficulty in getting the Exchange to answer. I have had one reason given to me for that—that it was due to staff change-over. It has improved since then and I hope there will not be a repetition.

I should like to make a distinction now between male and female operators. The male operator, in my experience and in that of others, is a rather casual performer and is inclined to let one hang on a little longer than he should. On the other hand, the female operator is extremely prompt and careful and gives the impression of being more helpful. Whether or not that is due to the attractive quality of her voice I do not know, but certainly she is able to put the male operator in the shade. I notice that the sex is not represented among the Minister's advisers here this evening, but I trust there is some gallant among them who will take back that tribute to his female colleagues.

The increase in the telex system is something that must be welcomed and it can be regarded as an inexpensive and great development, particularly for numbers, during the past two years. The Minister has adverted to it in his speech. The telegram system, of course, did not pay. I do not think the Post Office intended it to pay. I think the Post Office is trying to kill it. That would be a pity because the telegram, rightly or wrongly, is associated in the life of rural Ireland with the two extremes of joy and sorrow. Having regard to that fact, I suggest there should be a lower rate for the delivery of telegrams of congratulation in the case of weddings or of sympathy to the house of death. The telegrams need not be delivered in relays; they could be delivered in bundles as they come.

I am pleased to see that the Minister referred to the fact that steps are to be taken to deal with the telephone directory print for next year. I am glad to note that the Minister was big enough to agree, impliedly at any rate, that this was necessary. That is a comforting prospect to which we can all look forward. As regards rates, there might be a business rate for business houses which do a considerable amount of telephoning either within the country or cross-Channel during certain hours of the day. As someone has said, the better use made of the service the greater the income therefrom.

It is gratifying to see that savings show an increase. If the Minister understands me, he should have a chat with his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare; if certain officials of the Department of Social Welfare were not so prying in their efforts to find out what means people have, the Minister might find himself with far bigger deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank.

I do not think the Minister has ever received any kind of query from me, or any complaint. That, of course, is a reflection on the state of affairs in the constituency I represent. On one occasion I did write about deliveries. Some people living in a particular part of a townland had a three days a week delivery while people just across the road had a daily delivery. That has been put right as a result of the recent reorganisation.

The only reason I criticise the increase in postage is because of the timing of it. It was not done on the occasion of the annual Budget. I have the strongest possible objection to increases which, because of timing, may pass unnoticed. When it is remembered that I, or any other Deputy, can post a letter before 6 o'clock in the evening here in this House and our constituents will have that letter the following morning, certainly before noon, that is not a bad achievement. The service is well worth 3d. particularly when it is remembered that the ordinary observant child nowadays would almost be inclined to throw 3d. back at one. The service is an excellent one.

Telephone charges, certainly after 6 o'clock, are on the whole reasonable. I do not think anybody could complain about them. They are a bit dearer earlier in the day, but there is the welcome change in the grouping system whereby calls in country districts which used to cost 9d. or a 1/- will now cost 3d.

I come now to the remuneration of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. Some of them are all right; some of them are not. I agree with Deputy Loughman that stressing the position of the lower paid people is not the best way to make the case. Some of them get as little as £89. There is, of course, a reason for that but nevertheless I think that £89 is too low. I do not know whether Deputy O'Donnell's units system is correct, but I assume it is; it is a system that should certainly be altered in order to arrive at what is the proper remuneration for someone in control of a country post office. These people give excellent service. By and large, their capacity to oblige is only exceeded by their capacity to make you feel that they are obliged when, in fact, they are not obliged to you. Something is done in the ordinary course, but you feel you are getting something wonderful. It may be that the "line" is free. But there is nothing like putting a good face on things, and being pleasant and agreeable. It carries one a good way through life.

Sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses who have a family enjoy something more than just the mere business. If everything is in order and the business is done correctly, properly and honestly, it can be transferred to another member of the family. Sometimes post offices remain in the one family for generations. It is difficult to put a money value on that, but it is definitely worth something. Deputy Loughman pointed out that when a post office becomes vacant people come to us under the impression, as he said, that we may be of some assistance to them. I am quite certain Deputy Loughman has never done anything to rid people of that impression; he hopes for the best. There is a certain anxiety to become a sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress. Generally the service is combined with some other business. Looking at it just as a post office, the remuneration is probably too low.

A distinction must be drawn as between the establishment of temporary postmen and the establishment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses. Where the business passes from one member of the family to another, from generation to generation, until more money is available, establishment is something that can be postponed. That argument does not hold, however, in the case of the temporary postmen. I hope somebody will be brave enough to do something about them with all possible speed. We are in an age in which provision is being made for almost all sections by way of superannuation, contributory pensions, and so forth. The only exceptions seem to be temporary postmen and certain others.

On the question of transport, to ask the Department to supply autocycles or motor-bicycles is asking for jam. It is asking for too much. I believe there is some kind of queer rule which the Post Office tries to enforce and for which, I think, there is no real precedent or authority. I refer to the prescribing of the use of certain vehicles and the proscribing of others. A man should be allowed to use any kind of transport available to him whether it is a car, a motor-cycle, or an ordinary push-bicycle, or even someone else to drive him provided that the mails he carries will not be in any greater jeopardy than they would be if carried by any other means of transport.

On the whole, I think this Estimate will be welcome in so far as it shows a profit, but if that profit has to be put anywhere let it be devoted towards the relief of those whose position is not so good. May I conclude by repeating my tribute to the Post Office for its honesty, the courtesy of its staffs and particularly the manner in which all of our secrets are preserved? Secrets are not only contained inside an envelope. The very fact that an envelope is sent out from here with the word "Oireachtas" on it, or on the back of it the stamp of a bank or the stamp of a company making inquiries into the solvency of somebody else, are all things well known not only to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses but also to the persons who deliver such letters. Yet how rarely is there a breach of faith between the senders of these letters and the persons to whom they are addressed. That is something which is far greater than any monetary value that can be put on the service provided.

Mr. Killilea

I welcome the reorganisation that has taken place in the postal service and the extended delivery and collection times for rural areas. They have provided reasonable facilities for people to answer their post in the same day. I am glad that the time is not far distant when we shall have a one day service in practically every townland in the country. That day cannot come too quickly.

I have received complaints from people about delay in the installation of telephones. I think we have been a little bit behind in this matter and I trust a greater effort will be made to accommodate the applicants who have been waiting for some time. I also welcome the Minister's statement that we are to have larger print in the telephone directory. Those of us, like myself, who wear glasses do not find it easy without exceptionally good light to read the names of the subscribers and the numbers.

I want to join with other Deputies who have advocated a re-examination of the salaries of sub-postmasters. I shall not say, as Deputy O'Donnell did, that the £80 man is the worst off, although I know he is badly off. But you have the person in receipt of £150 who has to employ somebody in the office. Some little girl is employed at £2 a week, sometimes £2.10., but very rarely £3 a week. If such sub-postmasters had to pay £3 a week, plus holiday pay, it would amount to £156, and I do not know where they could find it. As has been pointed out, they have to provide light, fuel and accommodation and to give almost slavish service. Although they are termed temporary, I do not see that there is anything temporary about their job. They have to be in the post office all day long. They have to perform many tasks outside their official duties such as filling up forms for old age pension applicants, forms for widows' pensions, forms for money orders and so on. All that type of work is done by sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses without grumbling and they do it on very poor remuneration. Their case is deserving of re-examination by the Minister and I hope something will be done to see that the remuneration is increased in the near future.

Much has been said about temporary, auxiliary and assistant postmen. It is a shame that something has not been done about a superannuation scheme for those people. Their job is no fun. They have to go out hail, rain or snow. That continues for 30, 40 or 50 years, and at the end they have to retire without a shilling except anything they may get from a benevolent fund if their health breaks down. That is a poor compliment to such people for the services they have given. I heard a good deal about supplying them with motor cycles or some such conveyances. These men are paid on the time they work and if they were to be supplied with a form of motor transport their time would be cut down by nearly half. The people talking about motor transport do not understand the kind of work these men have to do. Many of them have to carry their bicycles over fences and cycle across fields. How could they do that with motor cycles? If they did not do that they would have to walk to the house and they would have to gallop if they were not making sufficient time. If they are not on time it is just too bad for them. I think motor transport for them is out of the question.

The crude type of bicycle supplied to our postmen at present should be abolished. A man might as well be trying to push a donkey and cart. They are heavy, cumbersome, awkward machines. Having fixed the time in which they are satisfied a man could cover his area, the Post Office authorities could then leave to himself the type of transport he uses. I think that in certain cases they have fixed an allowance for a man using his own bicycle. That he carries out his duties and does his job well is the important thing both for the Post Office and the people and nobody will grouse about it. The antiquated type of machines used by postmen at present should be re-modelled or a lighter type of bicycle supplied.

I should like to join with others who have paid tribute to the courtesy and efficiency of the post office staffs throughout the country. The sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses deserve a special word of thanks from us all for the services they provide.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

My main reason for intervening in this debate is to refer to the Post Office Savings Bank deposits. Some time ago I addressed a Question to the appropriate Minister as to the rate of interest applicable to the Savings Bank and I asked that the rate should be increased. My motive for so doing is that the bulk of Post Office Savings Bank deposits come from small investors and as this State has, for the last number of years, been paying to the larger type of investor interest rates which are double those allowed on Post Office deposits, I think the time has now arrived when the rate of 2½ per cent. which the Post Office pays should be revised.

We have, according to the Minister's statement, more than £80,000,000 deposited in the Savings Bank and we are paying an interest rate of 2½ per cent. on that amount. We have recently introduced the Premium Bond Scheme and we are paying 4 per cent. by way of prizes for money subscribed under that scheme. That is the sum which the Government sets aside for the half yearly drawings. The last Development Loan cost us 5¼ per cent. or even more because it was purchased below par.

I think there is an obligation on the Minister, having regard to the upward trend in the price of money in recent years, to pay a reasonable rate of interest on Savings Bank deposits. We are paying double what we were paying 10 or 15 years ago to other investors and I cannot see any reason why the people who have this £80,000,000 deposited with us in the Savings Bank should not be treated in the same way as those who have invested in other State schemes. I am asking the Minister, in fairness to these people and having regard to the fact that they are mainly drawn from the smaller income group, to advance the interest on savings deposits to at least 4 per cent.

That rate of 2½ per cent. is the only Government rate of interest that has not changed over the years. If it were increased, it would be very helpful in promoting thrift among our people. I hope that before the Minister presents the next Estimate, he and the Government will have addressed themselves to this question and that they will have given to these small investors what they are entitled to—a rate of interest somewhat in keeping with the rate of interest we pay to other depositors.

Generally speaking, Deputies have welcomed this Estimate and very few have any cause for complaint. I regret that I have a few local complaints to bring to the notice of the Minister and I have do doubt that he will take early measures to rectify them. In remote areas, and I may mention the area where I reside, the Mizen Head peninsula, there is considerable delay in getting telephone calls through. In some cases one must wait at least half an hour before one can get connection with a town or village 15, 20 or 30 miles distant. The Minister will appreciate that there is no sense in asking people to wait that length of time and I believe that additional lines should be provided and that the more remote and isolated parts of the country should get better treatment than at present. There may be some excuse for the position inasmuch as a number of new subscribers have been listed of late but this matter has already been brought to the notice of the Minister and I am bringing it before him again now so that immediate action may be taken.

Another item to which I should like to refer is the erection of kiosks in sub-post offices in the remote districts. While Deputy Lindsay paid tribute to the integrity of the postal staffs, particularly the staffs attached to the small offices in the rural districts, we all know that it is very difficult and embarrassing for people to make telephone calls in these offices. There is no enclosure whatever and a person entering the office to make a call does not know who is before him. There is bound to be an assistant and possibly there will be other customers. That state of affairs precludes many people from using the service at all.

Some time ago, someone mentioned that when a person calls at one of these small offices to make a phone call the assistant should vacate the office while the call is being made. That is not possible in many instances and I think that the Department should be more helpful in ensuring that these private kiosks should be erected in those small country post offices. I think any reasonably populous district that is more than three miles from the nearest telephone office should have a public kiosk. In rural Ireland people availing of the public telephone service must travel up to six miles in some cases to make a call. I think that our recommendations that kiosks should be made available in these districts are justifiable. We all know the advantages of having a telephone handy if one requires a doctor, a vet, or any other type of service and I have been specifically requested by a number of my constituents to bring that to the Minister's notice on this Estimate.

I am sure, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that in your own constituency, and in other constituencies along the western seaboard, the same set of circumstances apply regarding the provision of telephone services. On a number of occasions I have referred to the need for these services on islands around our coasts and as a result of my representations I had hoped that a telephone service would be provided for an island two miles from my own home, Long Island, off Schull. However, I regret that I find it necessary to refer to that question again today. I think there is a big principle involved. Here is an island, about a mile distant from the mainland, with no telephone service of any kind. Its population is around 50 and should the islanders ever require help from the mainland for any type of service, medical, spiritual, or anything else, it would be necessary to prepare a boat and row to the nearest point on the mainland, and then come along to the village of Schull.

The excuse the Minister put forward is that if he were to provide a service on Long Island for the 50 odd people residing there, it would not be an economic proposition. In other words, he believed that the revenue would not measure up to the expense incurred. That conclusion is quite correct but surely to heavens the Minister has some obligation to cater for such remote districts? I have no doubt but that telephone services are provided in other areas where they are not economical and, if as the result of the lack of this service, fatal consequences ensue to anyone on this island, it would be a great reflection on the Department, having regard to the fact that the matter has been brought to their notice again and again. In conclusion, I hope the Minister will reconsider this matter and that there will be no need for me to refer to it when next year's Estimate comes along.

Having listened to the contributions from Deputies on all sides of the House, there seems to be general agreement that the conditions, particularly the rates of pay of rural postmen, and of postmen generally, should be improved. However, special mention has been made of the plight of auxiliary postmen and there is general agreement on all sides that they are giving very good and efficient service, and that the number of complaints received about them are negligible. I think that the rates of remuneration for these different grades of postmen are not kept in line with the rates of pay for somewhat similar employment, though it is very hard to indicate a similar type of employment to that of postmen. The Minister, however, should take cognisance of the pleas made by members of his own Party, and by members of the Opposition, and review the rates and the conditions of these people with a view to effecting desirable improvements.

My personal opinion of the most desirable improvement he could effect, as far as unestablished and auxiliary postmen are concerned, would be to initiate some kind of superannuation scheme for them. These State employees are the only ones who are excluded from any pension scheme whatsoever and, as mentioned by a previous speaker, it is pitiful to find a person retiring with perhaps 40 to 50 years' service as an auxiliary postman and the only possible help he can get is to seek a gratuity of £75. I cannot say what heading this gratuity comes under, but I do say that it is unfair that these men should be obliged to continue working under such circumstances. I may add that if a postman with long service is to succeed in securing this £75 gratuity from the Department he has to indicate clearly that he is in a desperate plight and is almost a pauper. That is unfair and unjust to these men and I have no doubt that with the very rigid investigation system that pertains to the granting of this allowance, a big percentage of the applicants do not qualify for it at all. Therefore, I join with the other speakers in asking the Minister to review the position generally.

I think there is no need to refer to the question of sub-postmasters. It has been referred to by a number of Deputies and, as Deputy Lindsay pointed out, some of them are reasonably well paid and others are not. Undoubtedly those in the lower grades of pay, and those in the grades where it is necessary to employ assistants, are entitled to consideration and I hope that, having regard to what he has heard, the Minister will also review this situation.

Another item I would like to refer to is the delay in the appointment of postmen. I cannot see the reason for delay in making these appointments. I think there is a vacancy in the Ballymakeera post office for more than two years—if not for three years— and the Minister and the Department cannot make up their minds as to who is the most suitable applicant. Surely there is no reason for such a position obtaining, and it is unreasonable to keep applicants waiting so long to know which of them will be successful. One month or, at the outside, two months should be quite sufficient and I believe there are other vacancies in West Cork where applicants are at present waiting to hear whom the Minister is going to appoint. It would be no harm if he expedited these appointments.

We had a great deal of controversial discussion over the years in this House regarding such appointments and I would like to know is the Minister prepared to make a definite statement here now, that the man recommended to him is always the man appointed. I am satisfied that if the Minister made such a definite statement it would be correct because I have always regarded him as a very decent type of man.

I should like to get some information on the system of appointing sub-postmasters. That has been a controversial question for a number of years. The late Deputy Keyes, when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, removed these appointments from the political field and a Board was set up whose impartial recommendation was automatically approved by the Minister. I have learned, whether correctly or incorrectly, that when the Minister's predecessor succeeded Deputy Keyes, he reverted to the old system of giving these appointments to political followers. I feel that my information must be correct because the appointments that have been made in West Cork have gone to the political supporters of the Government Party. It may be said that in some cases the appointees were the most suitable applicants.

I agree that a person's support of the Government or of a political Party should not preclude him from securing appointments. I have not questioned any of these appointments in the House but it seems peculiar that in the cases that have arisen the Minister's followers were successful, particularly when the location of their premises—I shall not refer to their personal suitability; they could be as suitable as other applicants— was not suitable and could not be recommended by an impartial body.

As the Minister was absent when I began my speech, I shall conclude on the note on which I commenced, that is, the question of the interest rate on Post Office deposits. I hope the Minister and the Government will address themselves to that question in the immediate future.

Mr. Sherwin

The Estimate covers 25 pages and one would need plenty of time to digest all the matter contained in it. I shall not attempt to do so. I have some small criticism to offer. I am fairly satisfied with the manner in which the Department was run but nothing is perfect and I suppose the Minister welcomes criticism.

I will begin by mentioning the fact that for some time I have not been receiving the Dáil Order Paper until the afternoon post which means that if there is a question on the Order Paper on which I wish to raise a supplementary question, I am not in a position to do so. That happened on Thursday week. A question was asked about C.I.E. pensioners. If I had been here I would have asked a supplementary question but I was not aware that the question would be asked because I did not get the Order Paper and it was only when I came into the House, a little late, that I discovered that the question was down.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would that be the responsibility of the Minister?

Mr. Sherwin

I inquired at the office and was told it was not their fault. Therefore, it must be the fault of the Minister.

Mr. Hilliard

It does not follow.

Mr. Sherwin

I do not think it is the fault of the office. I think it is the fault of the Minister. I should like to get my Order Paper in the mornings so that I shall know what will be discussed at 3 o'clock.

Last year I had occasion to criticise the type of post office that is a post office-cum-shop. In particular I mentioned the Finglas area. Finglas is a built-up area. Deputies can judge from the fact that there are about 12,000 votes in it. On the day that children's allowances are paid people often have to line up there for as much as two hours. There may have been some improvement since last year. The fact is that the post office is too small. I refer to the post office in Finglas village. There is also the fact that it is a shop as well as a post office and the assistant very often has to interrupt State business in order to sell a loaf or something else. That is the cause of a great deal of delay.

I appreciate that there must be post offices-cum-shops in certain areas where there is not much State business to be transacted because the Post Office could not afford to pay a substantial amount of money for a small service. In built-up areas the business of post offices should be exclusively State business.

The Minister referred to a new system. If he is thinking of the system that operates in London, where each part of the city is numbered, it would be a good thing. In cases where only the Irish form of an address is used there has been a great deal of delay in the delivery of letters in the city. Such letters have been delivered at least two days later than letters addressed in English which were posted at the same time. That may be due to the fact that the postal authorities are not aware of the whereabouts of some of the Irish-named streets. It would be an improvement if certain parts of the city were numbered.

Mr. Dillon

They are, are they not?

Mr. Sherwin

They are not so far as I know. Let me develop my point. A week ago I mentioned a case where the county sheriff sent an eviction order to a family in Ballyfermot. There was no reference to Ballyfermot on the envelope, just the Irish name. Nobody seemed to know where that was. The order was returned to the Post Office who, in turn, sent it back to the sheriff. The sheriff then put "Ballyfermot" on the envelope in big English letters. The order was duly delivered. It arrived at 10 o'clock on the Wednesday and the family was evicted at 11 o'clock.

If certain parts of the city are numbered so that addresses can be easily identified, local post offices will have no difficulty. If that is what the Minister has in mind, I would welcome such a system.

Last year I referred to the rental charge in respect of a telephone in a private dwelling. The charge is £1 17s. If the phone is there just for the convenience of the husband or wife and if there are only three phone calls in the week, it makes it a most expensive amenity.

I intend to criticise in much the same way the E.S.B. when the Minister for Transport and Power comes along with his Estimate. They charge 9/- for a meter and that must be, and is paid even where a person uses only 6d. worth of light. Here you must pay £1 17s. rent for the telephone although you may have no reason to use it more than two or three times a week. In my opinion such rentals are subsidising the business people who, if they do pay more, are making money out of it. That seems to be the case also with the E.S.B. It seems if you have a castle with 25 rooms in it you pay only 25/- rent for the whole lot but you must pay 9/- for one point and that means that the poor man is subsidising the rich man. Probably it is much the same in the case of the Post Office.

I have a question down for to-morrow but as I shall not be allowed to make a speech to-morrow, I shall make it now. I am asking—and of course I shall expect an answer tomorrow—if a telegram is sent in London at 8 p.m. when should it arrive at its destination in Dublin? A neighbour who had a serious accident sent for a son in London. The son sent a telegram. I have it here. It was sent at 7.55 p.m. on a Friday night. He arrived home the next morning and he collected the telegram. Surely the whole purpose of a telegram is that it be delivered inside an hour or so at its destination? If there is any loss on the telegraph service I wonder would this have anything to do with it? This telegram arrived at 9.15 on Saturday morning and the man who had just arrived from London opened the door and took in his own telegram. If I do not get an explanation from the Minister when he is replying I shall expect the answer to-morrow.

I think there is some mention of a new stamp to commemorate something. What about a new stamp in honour of the Garden of Remembranch seeing that the work is to begin on that project this year? I suggest there should be a special stamp for it.

The 2½ per cent. interest on Post Office savings has already been mentioned. I can guess why the interest has not been increased—the Minister feels he does not have to do so. This is a strange world and people only do what they must do. The Minister knows that poor people do not trust other services of this kind, that they will put their money into the Post Office and he can afford to hand them what he likes. That is why they get 2½ per cent., but if there was some institution in opposition to the Post Office which the people could trust and out of which they would be able to draw their money, it might be a different story. Yet, it should occur to the Minister that if he gave a little more interest there might be a considerable increase in Post Office savings.

I suggest to the Minister that a stamp machine should be provided outside every post office and not just outside some of them. In my own locality the post office shuts at 6 p.m. Sometimes I get stamps in a local shop and sometimes I get none but there should be a service of that kind available and I would ask the Minister to keep the matter in mind.

Another important point is a cheap service for local elections. We all know that the service is free for Dáil elections but not for local elections. I understand that the cheapest rate one can get is a penny rate if the envelope is open and marked as election literature. But if one attempts to use the Post Office at a penny per letter it would cost, taking an average constituency of 32,000-35,000, over £130 or so. Nobody can afford that. While I can understand the Minister not wishing to give a free service in a local election when there are probably 20 candidates—every Tom, Dick and Harry goes up—because it might be a bit troublesome, at least I think the Minister could reduce the charge to a halfpenny to give people a chance. If that were done the small man who wanted to stand might be able to send out a few thousand letters through the Post Office. At elections you want money; you do not want to give money away. The reduction to a halfpenny might help some people and I think the Minister should consider it.

Five years ago when I was elected to Dublin Corporation for the first time, although I had a faithful little group to help me, I did not canvass half the area and that half received no publicity from me. I did my best but I could not cover it. I won just the same. No matter how hard I worked it was not possible to cover the whole area. The Minister should help by giving the cheap service that I suggest which would enable a man, perhaps, to send out 5,000 or 6,000 letters by post and then he could try to do the rest by canvassing. The Minister should not give all the advantages to the big Parties that have the organisations behind them. That enables them to take over local bodies but well-meaning people unconnected with Parties should get some little help in this respect. If a man could allocate say, £15, for halfpenny stamps he would be able to cover an area which he could not otherwise reach.

As it is, there is no official registration card. In Dáil elections there is. Some person tries to have a go in local elections but he is not able to canvass and comes up against it every way. At least the Minister could co-operate and agree to at least a small charge like a halfpenny. It would be in the interests of the community because there would then be better Party representation. I have no complaints except those odds and ends, but it is by voicing such complaints that we get matters remedied and get a better service.

Mr. Manley

I think the Minister should feel highly honoured and indeed proud at the various tributes paid to his Department, and deservedly so. It is one Department that has greatly increased its organisation and its activities in recent years. It is a Department that serves the public faithfully and well.

The sum sought is an indication of the enormous increase in the Post Office organisation. We were very gratified to hear that the daily service is still being pursued and that the area now without it is becoming very small indeed. The Minister should tell us in his closing speech what percentage of the people in the Twenty-Six Counties are now getting the daily delivery service. It would not be necessary to name the various areas still without it but he could give us some indication of the progress made in that respect.

The striking feature of the Minister's statement is the enormous increase in the number of letters delivered daily in this country over a full year. It is an indication of how letter-minded we have become. Of course, Deputies all realise that from their daily post. Side by side with that goes the growth in the telephone service. One would think that the development of one would be a handicap to the growth of the other but that is not the case. Sixty years ago the number of letters delivered over a whole year would be a mere fraction of those delivered today. It is an extraordinary change, and more extraordinary still is the fact that the number is growing day by day.

In the Book of Estimates, the figure for the conveyance of mails by air is the same as it was last year. It would be interesting to learn from the Minister how these mails are distributed as between, for instance, Shannon and Dublin Airports; it would be interesting to see how airmail traffic is developing in this country.

Deputy Murphy spoke about Long Island which is in his constituency. With the development of the daily delivery service to various remote parts of the country, the islands should not be neglected. This is an amenity those people deserve. In Cape Clear, the islanders get their letters four days in the week. Of course they are grateful, but there is no reason why they should not receive their letters daily like their neighbours on the coast. I do not know how much is allowed to the boats bringing the mails to the islands, but I believe the sum is rather meagre and negligible because I know the boat which takes the mails to Cape Clear. It is manned by a private party and the amount given by the Post Office is negligible. I say the Post Office could be more liberal in this matter.

My main purpose in speaking in this debate is to refer to the gratuity fund. Recently I came across a postman who had spent 50 years delivering letters and who had to retire at the age of 75. He had been an excellent official, always trustworthy, with never a complaint against him. When he went to claim benefit from the gratuity fund he failed to get anything because, being frugal in his habits, he had managed to have £700 invested in the Post Office. He had lived alone for years and now lives with a nephew and his family. He had saved this money because of his frugal habits. The money had been used by the State but, because he had been a good citizen and had saved money, he was penalised and refused anything out of the fund. That was not all. When he applied for the old age pension he again suffered because he had money in the Post Office. It was hard that he was penalised by two Departments because of his thrift.

Mr. Crotty

I should like first of all to thank the Minister for the courtesy he has always extended to me when I had occasion to bring matters to his notice. There are just a few points I should like to mention. Deputy M.P. Murphy was enlightening when he said it took two to three years for a postman to become appointed and that it was the Minister who had the final say—the man who has now to deal with television as well as all the other facets of the postal services. He now has to go down to sanction the appointment of a postman from God knows where.

Mr. Dillon

Every one of them, even when they are members of a Fianna Fáil Cumann.

Mr. Crotty

I thought such a job could be done by a certain section of the Department instead of leaving the task of finding a suitable man to the Minister. I was certainly enlightened. The telephone system has extended very much in recent years—practically overnight, I should say. I feel the Department has not extended the staff to meet that development. I am not laying too much blame on the Minister for that; it is difficult to extend the service and get the trained staff overnight, but I think the Minister would need to pay attention to this matter.

I brought a case to the notice of the Minister recently of a man who wanted the telephone extended from one part of his premises to another. It took five to six weeks to do that. I consider the period extraordinary. If the staff was in the area it should have been done in days and not weeks. I bring the matter publicly to the notice of the Minister now.

Some people want phones for their own convenience. Others need them for business purposes. Only this week a man appealed to me for help in getting a phone. Strange to say, it was in Cork, but he is a Kilkenny man. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that it would be the end of the year before all present applicants would have phones. This man is a business representative and it is vitally necessary that he should have a phone. In certain cases priority should be given to people for whom a telephone forms an essential part of their business.

Cabinets should be provided in sub-post offices for the convenience of people making telephone calls. One does not want bystanders listening to one's calls. Most telephone calls deal with private personal matters and it is only right that people should have privacy when making telephone calls. The cost of providing that privacy should not be too exorbitant on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

It may be impossible to start a pension scheme now for existing auxiliary postmen, but it should not be beyond the ability of the Department of Finance to devise some scheme for the future. There is a pension scheme for county council workers. If a man works 150 days in the year——

Mr. Norton

200 days.

Mr. Crotty

——200 days in the year, he qualifies for pension purposes. Most auxiliary postmen work a much greater number of days in the year. It is pathetic to see those of them who are advanced in years still trying to carry on. If they could be retired with some pension, room would be made for younger men seeking employment. The State gives a lead in most things and it is only right that the State should give a lead in providing pensions for workers who have given faithful service over a long period of years.

Someone mentioned gratuities. I know a postman, who retired and the only way he could get a gratuity was by presenting the bills he owed. If he owes nothing he gets no gratuity. That is hardly fair where a man pays his way all his life. That is a system which should not operate in any public service. A gratuity should be paid irrespective of whether or not bills are owed. I ask the Minister to make a strong case to the Government. This matter keeps cropping up here year after year. It would be a great boon to these men if their services were acknowledged through the medium of some kind of pension when they retire.

A predecessor of the Minister—I think Deputy Keyes—set up a committee to deal with applicants for sub-post offices. Appointments were to be made on the ground of suitability and not on the ground of political affiliation, or anything like that. That inspired confidence in the people. I do not know if that position has been departed from. Deputy Murphy seems to think it has.

Mr. Palmer

It has.

Mr. Crotty

I should like an assurance from the Minister that it has not been departed from. We want as little patronage as possible.

Mr. Healy

Arising out of what Deputy Crotty has said about the position with regard to telephones in Cork city, it is true to say that next to the demand for municipal housing and medical cards comes the demand for telephones. Not so many years ago Cork was equipped with a new and enlarged exchange. I am glad of the Minister's assurance that the 400 whose names are now on the waiting list will be catered for by the end of the year. I should like an assurance from him, however, that he realises Cork is expanding industrially, and otherwise, very rapidly. We even have Kilkenny men down there. We have Corkmen coming back from Dublin at the moment. The demand for phones is increasing and I hope the Minister will not rest content with catering for the 400 but will take into consideration the ever-increasing demand likely in the future.

Mr. P. Byrne

I join in the congratulations to the Minister in relation to the progress made in his Department in expanding postal and telephone services. There is just one small matter I wish to raise. I put down a Parliamentary Question in reference to it to the Minister's immediate predecessor about a year ago. Could the Minister tell us, when he comes to reply, what the position is with regard to telephone tapping? On what authority is a line interfered with by the police or others? How often is the practice resorted to, if it is resorted to at all? As the Minister is aware there was considerable agitation in Britain about a year ago because it transpired that the police authorities, somewhat irregularly, were engaging in the practice of cutting in on private phone calls.

The liberty of the individual freely to communicate with his neighbour is one which I am sure the Minister cherishes very highly. I think as a layman—I am not a lawyer—that the legislative authority on which this practice is based is very shapeless. Indeed, I think it is true to say that the Act, which the Minister quoted as his authority for the practice when I queried him in the House, was enacted before the development of telephones on their present scale. Beyond stating his authority the Minister did not give any information about this practice.

As I said, it is a constitutional liberty we should cherish that individuals should be entitled freely to communicate with one another and that this practice should be resorted to only when grave issues of national security are involved. Even in cases of petty crime it is undesirable that the police authorities should have the right to tap somebody's conversation with his neighbour or business associates. I feel sure that the Minister must feel very strongly that this constitutional right of the individual should be protected. I, for my part, would be delighted to hear from him that the matter to which I refer is one upon which we need feel no further concern.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

It is evident from this debate that in the main the House is satisfied with the services provided by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in all parts of the country. That, in itself, indicates that the staff of the Department is giving general satisfaction to the public. Indeed, it is a signal tribute to the staff, in particular to that portion of the staff which has immediate contact with the public. I am happy to serve with a staff for whose work there has been such general approval.

Many questions have been raised in regard to matters other than the general services provided by the Post Office. Many of them dealt with the conditions under which the staff are employed. I shall endeavour, so far as I can, to deal with the principal questions raised. Deputy Dillon asked me to state the figure which it is estimated the increased postal and telegraph charges will bring in in a full year. As I indicated in my opening statement, we expect an intake of £185,000 in a full year from those increased charges. Deputy Lindsay said that the announcement of such increased charges should be related to the budgetary position. I do not at all subscribe to that view.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a business concern. Deputies and the public should look upon it as a Department performing a public function in a business-like way. All Governments and Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs so far, have expected it to pay its way. This is not the first time that increased postal and telegraph charges were dealt with in this way.

I think I was quite justified in asking the public to pay those increased charges which are not bringing in a sufficient sum to cover the extra expenditure arising out of the recent increase in salaries and wages payable to the staff.

I shall deal now with the question of sub-postmasters. Deputy Murphy and Deputy Crotty raised the question of the appointment of sub-postmasters and other Deputies raised the question of the emoluments payable to them. I have not with me the file in respect of the appointment of sub-postmasters but, speaking from my experience in the Department, I must say that there is no foundation whatever for the allegation that the Department Selection Board has been abolished. If that had happened it would have been announced by me. The Selection Board still examines the applications made for those positions. They make recommendations to the Minister on the suitability of the applicants and on the suitability of their premises. In some cases, however, they leave a degree of selection with the Minister. In some cases they recommend one person as suitable and that person must be appointed. They can recommend two or three persons, but not more than three, out of the total number of applicants. Since I assumed office I have not appointed anybody as sub-postmaster or sub-postmistress who was not recommended to me by the Selection Board, and I do not intend to appoint anybody other than those recommended in this way.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The procedure is that more than one are recommended to the Minister and he takes his choice from those recommended.

Mr. Hilliard

That is so. That was the position when I came into the Department and that is the position that obtains now. I suggest to the Deputy that if any further information is needed he could put down a Parliamentary Question and I shall give him whatever further information he may need. I should like to let the Deputy and the House know the true position but I am speaking from memory, without the necessary file and from my experience as Minister since I entered the Department.

In so far as sub-postmasters' emoluments are concerned, I regard the sub-postmasters more as contractors to the Post Office than as ordinary wage earners. The position of sub-postmaster is advertised locally and a number of persons apply. They know the conditions of service, the amount of pay attached to the office and the conditions under which they are expected to perform their duties. Each application is reported on by the local postmaster and the applications are further examined by the Departmental Selection Board. From my experience of dealing with the applications, it is only rarely anybody who is not comfortably well-off is recommended for those positions.

It is true that the lowest pay for this class of work is £80 or something over it with some additions for extra services which bring the basic rate to about £100 a year. Taking the overall picture of sub-post offices throughout the country, the pay works out at an average figure which is of considerable benefit to the people who occupy those posts. While no direct provision is made for the payment of assistants the overall amount is fixed in relation to the amount of work passing through the office and, if an assistant is necessary, the pay for the working of the office for the year is such as to enable the sub-postmaster to pay a wage to an assistant.

I do not think that the sub-postmasters or sub-postmistresses are treated unfairly by the Department in this matter. The conditions are decided by the Sub-postmasters' Consultative Council. Various substantial increases of pay have been given in recent years and a general pay settlement was made last year. Arising out of the recent round of pay increases, they have now claimed a further increase and this is at present being discussed by the Council and a decision is expected very shortly. There is usually keen competition for these appointments. There are also other matters concerning conditions of service for discussion by the Council and we hope to have in the near future a decision on the matters outstanding.

We shall now take the case of the postmen. There are in the postal service several grades of postmen. There are established postmen who enter the service through a Civil Service examination. I am being pressed by Deputies to establish auxiliary postmen and Deputy Dillon made reference to what he did when he was in the Department of Agriculture. I do not think that he did anything new when he established some full-time temporary civil servants in that Department. It has been the practice for a long time in the service to establish full-time temporary people who enter in certain circumstances and have certain qualifications to perform a certain grade of work. It has happened in the Department of Agriculture several times since. They come in through the Civil Service Commission or through some confined examination in the service itself.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs provides for that in the telephone and postal service. There are certain rules and regulations that have to be observed and the men who sit for these examinations must conform to the rules and regulations regarding age, health and so on. Auxiliary postmen are recruited through the Labour Exchanges and it has been Government policy here for a long time to select the auxiliary postmen from the men sent forward by the Labour Exchanges. They are not performing full-time work and I fail to see why I should consider taking a group of those men and establishing them as civil servants. I do not think it would be fair to the postmen who come in as established postmen or to the temporary or auxiliary postmen who sit for that examination.

It is a fact that appointments of all auxiliary postmen are subject to the sanction of the Minister. Deputy Crotty seems to think that is not so. The matter is left with the Minister, under general Government direction, to satisfy himself that the most needy person gets the post, and that other considerations in regard to his general suitability are fulfilled.

Part-time employees, auxiliary and temporary postmen are ineligible for pensions under the conditions of their employment and to provide pensions for them would necessitate special legislation. This question is one which concerns the whole Civil Service and is proper to the Minister for Finance. Some improvement in the position regarding gratuities for part-time employees, including postmen, has been agreed upon recently by the Minister for Finance following discussions with the General Conciliation Council for the Civil Service as a whole. I am not in a position at the moment to give details of the improvement, and I think that the House will have to wait until the matter is finalised before a statement could be made as to the exact improvements that have been agreed upon with the General Conciliation Council for the Civil Service.

I shall deal now with uniforms for postmen. Deputy Norton raised this question, with other Deputies, and they seemed to think that the uniforms were either badly made or ill-fitted——

Mr. Norton

I raised the question of quality.

Mr. Hilliard

——or that the quality of the uniform itself was not up to standard for a service such as the Post Office is providing. As I understand it, the uniforms are made to standard sizes and the applicants for uniforms are measured. The uniforms are then sent out to the various postmasters throughout the country who supply them to the individual postmen. The design of the uniform—that is, tunic and trousers —was settled after full consultation with the union and we believe it is considered satisfactory. The quality of the material used is good, and it is not accepted that the cloth is more prone to collect dust than any other cloth, but the blue colour does show up dust and calls for more frequent brushing.

The question of changing to another colour was considered some few years ago and the union was consulted also, but it was decided to keep to the present colour as, on the whole, being more suitable. That is the position in regard to that question.

Mr. Norton

Is it not inferior in quality to the Garda uniform?

Mr. Hilliard

It is regarded by the union and by the Department as being satisfactory.

Mr. Norton

Is it regarded as inferior to the Garda uniform?

Mr. Hilliard

I would not be able to say. I do not know.

Mr. Norton

Why cannot they get the same quality.

Mr. Hilliard

There is nothing further I can usefully add at this stage.

Mr. Norton

The Minister might look into that matter.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall have it examined all right, but I could not promise the Deputy anything as a result of the examination.

Deputy Norton also asked if we had a survey of post office building needs for the whole of the country. I shall answer that question in this way. The Post Office keeps building needs at its offices under continuous review and is engaged on a fairly full programme of new building and reconstruction, as is indicated in the particulars given in my opening statement. In addition to the places mentioned in that statement, many other offices are receiving attention but the plans are at an earlier stage of development. It would be premature to give a statement on all offices at which any building work will be done over a period of years ahead —such a statement might be misleading and it would be in constant need of revision in the light of changing circumstances.

However, it can be said that in addition to the many offices mentioned in my opening statement major work will be undertaken by way of rebuilding or reconstruction at the following places: Ballinasloe, Carlow, Claremorris, Youghal, Arklow, Carrick-on-Shannon, Ennis, Mullingar, Sligo, Cavan and Dungarvan.

Today Deputy Kyne raised the question of Dungarvan post office and I have already indicated to him that Dungarvan is on this list, but I could not attempt to tell him when work will be commenced.

Mr. Kyne

Have you any site?

Mr. Hilliard

In addition, new telephone exchanges will be provided in many centres. The general position is that within the limits of our resources, both of architectural staff available in the Office of Public Works and of money, the Department is pressing ahead as rapidly as possible with the improvement of accommodation where improvement is needed.

Deputy Norton asked me to express an opinion as to when the Central Sorting Office in Dublin would be commenced, and hoped that nothing would intervene to prevent the building being erected on the pile foundations when they are put down in the year after next. I would not like to hazard even a guess as to when the work will be commenced because this project is on the stocks for so long, and I know it has been looked forward to by the men who are working under such pretty bad conditions in the present sorting office in Dublin. They have been looking forward to a new building for so long that it is my endeavour, and the Department's endeavour to see that the work will not be impeded and that it will be commenced at the earliest possible date, but we have had experience in the past of disappointments in regard to projects of that nature and I do not think I would be justified in making any guess or pronouncement as to what might happen in a couple of years' time.

There is another vexatious question —the employment of female telephonists in Dublin up to 11 p.m. at night. Deputy Norton raised this question and referred to this type of employment. I should like to express my own views on that matter, as well as the views of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. For some 20 years now it has been a condition of service for female telephonists that they are liable for attendance up to 10 p.m. In practice the number of operators called upon to work up to 10 p.m. is only a fraction of the total number of operators employed. For instance, in Dublin we have, I think, a total female telephonist staff of about 400 and there are several months of the year when none of them has to attend beyond 8 p.m. Even at peak periods, such as August and Christmas, the maximum number on 10 p.m. duties hitherto has been 40. At the Union's request, liability for 10 p.m. attendance is restricted to operators with less than ten years' service but, even with that restriction, the incidence of 10 p.m. attendance works out at no more than two or three weeks a year for the majority of the staff affected.

There is a particular problem at night in Dublin where, during special periods, traffic pressure continues up to 11 p.m., and in order to overcome this the Department proposes to make future entrants liable for service up to 11 a.m. Their hours of duty, however, would not be increased and moreover a generous allowance would be payable for any attendance given up to 11 p.m. This is obviously a more satisfactory and economic way of meeting the problem than that suggested by Deputy Norton of employing extra male staff on a full-time basis merely to bridge a staff shortage of one hour nightly. In this connection, I might say that women are satisfactorily employed elsewhere in this country up to 11 p.m. and I can see no valid objection in principle to their employment in telephone exchanges up to this time particularly as, under the Department's proposal, their hours of duty would not be increased. They would not be continually employed on 11 p.m. duty, and they would receive extra remuneration when so employed. I may add that in other countries female telephonists are employed exclusively day and night.

Mr. Norton

Does the Minister hope to obviate this employment of female telephonists up to 11 p.m., or to try any method of doing so?

Mr. Hilliard

The position is as I have already explained. Their employment up to 11 p.m. is regarded as a means of bridging this gap. It is not the general practice to keep female telephonists working up to 11 p.m. at all. For the greater part of the year they work normal hours and there is no increase in their hours of employment. They cease at 11 p.m. and they get the extra amount of remuneration for it. They know in advance, before they enter the service, that that will be a condition of their employment.

Mr. Norton

They do not like it and is it worth while retaining it?

Mr. Hilliard

The obligation is on me and on the Department to provide the public with the service they need and I cannot see any other method by which that service can be provided at the present time.

Mr. Norton

The British do it in Belfast. It is done in every city.

Mr. Hilliard

I cannot continue by way of question and answer on this matter. I have expressed my own opinion on it. I have gone into the matter and have made myself acquainted with it and I cannot see any departure in principle in asking women to continue in this class of employment up to 11 p.m.

Mr. Norton

I take it the Minister will concede that he ought to have as much power to deal with the matter as the administrators in Belfast have?

Mr. Hilliard

I know that in England at any rate they are employed exclusively, day and night.

Mr. Norton

For equal pay.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Norton also raised the question of the reduction in staff numbers. In the case of indoor staff the decline in numbers employed is attributable almost entirely to the fall in telegraph traffic and to the withdrawal of post office staff from railway station telegraph offices under an agreement negotiated some time back with C.I.E. The main reason for the decline in the number of full-time postmen is the extended use of motor transport for the distribution and collection of mails. This makes for the earlier arrival of the incoming post and later despatch of outgoing mails from sub-offices and helps to provide the improved standard of service now expected by the public in rural areas. Nevertheless, it remains the policy of the Department to provide full-time employment on rural posts where this can reasonably be done.

Deputy Norton also raised the question of the Dublin postmen's time for commencing duty in the mornings and made reference to the fact that postmen in Dublin report for duty at 6 a.m. The Deputy mentioned the difficulties encountered in delivering registered correspondence and suggested that a later start be made. Difficulties in effecting delivery of registered mail and the disturbance of householders are not serious, in my opinion, because the volume of this category of mail is relatively small. On average, only about one in every 200 letters is a registered item. To bring the Dublin postmen on later in the mornings would mean that they would finish their rounds correspondingly late and many householders who now get mail before leaving for work would miss delivery of their morning post. I am satisfied that that would evoke serious and well-founded complaints and I do not consider that a change in the present arrangement is called for.

Deputy Norton also raised a question with regard to the correspondence of a firm in Newbridge with an English firm. He seemed dissatisfied with the postal service between this subsidiary in England and the parent office here. I should like to point out to the Deputy that the principal medium for the conveyance of letter mail between England and Ireland is the night air service and only supplementary use is being made of the Holyhead-Dún-Laoghaire packet. A difficulty in this particular instance is that the subsidiary office in England is in Slough, Buckinghamshire, which has an unusually early posting time for connection with the night air service. It is, I think, asking a lot, however, to propose the introduction of a special mail service between Dublin and Newbridge to cater for exceptional circumstances such as those.

Deputy Moloney had a suggestion that if we reduced the charges on telegrams it would bring more business and would be to the advantage of the Post Office. Some other Deputy made the same point. He also suggested that the Department was making an attempt to kill the telegraph service altogether. In that connection, I should like to say that it is a plausible argument for seeking reductions in the price of any article or service of any type. It only applies under certain conditions. The flaw is, of course, that if a price or rate is reduced below cost, no amount of extra business will help to avoid loss.

The question of reducing telegraph rates and so attracting more traffic was carefully considered before the general increase in telegraph service charges in 1955 and there was a White Paper issued in 1955. The question was posed and answered as follows:

An obvious question is whether the service can be rescued from its plight by attracting more traffic. The answer is no. The charge for a telegram is too far below cost.... The plain fact is that the more telegrams that are sent at present rates of charge, the greater the total deficit. Moreover, any substantial increase in traffic could be attracted only by reducing rates, and reduced rates would mean offering an already unprofitable service at charges even further below cost.

The general arguments then stated still apply and I do not think I would be justified in reducing the charges for the telegraph service.

Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Kyne asked me to provide stamp vending machines. Stamp vending machines have been installed at all the main post offices and about 30 sub-offices at holiday resorts and busy centres. Experience has shown that the provision of machines in sub-offices generally is not warranted. The machines are costly in themselves and the cost of installation in sub-offices is increased by the expense of the structural works usually involved. It has been found also that the use made by the public of the machines at some sub-offices where they have been installed is out of proportion to the expense involved in providing the machines. In these circumstances, the Department would not be justified in installing stamp vending machines at sub-offices in general. The public can buy stamps in bulk in convenient book form and, subject to certain conditions, the Department permits the sale, under licence, of stamps in shops which remain open after post office business hours.

Deputy Kyne also referred to the experience of putting money in machines with no result and suggested that the machines were out of stamps. That could not have been the reason because the machines have a shutter marked "Empty" which automatically falls down when the roll of stamps is exhausted.

Mr. Kyne

What if it is dark and you do not notice it? You just lose your threepence.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Coogan pressed a claim for a half-holiday for Post Office workers. A claim for a reduction in the working week so as to give a half-holiday has been made by the staff and is under discussion at the Departmental Council under the Conciliation and Arbitration machinery. I am unable to say what the result will be.

Deputy Norton also asked me about Churchtown, Finglas—Deputy Burke was interested in Finglas Post Office also—and Newbridge and Deputy Burke referred to the delay in providing telephone services at Skerries, Lusk, Rush and Malahide. Churchtown will be put into service shortly. In Finglas a new building is in the current year's programme but I cannot say when it will be started. In Newbridge, the completion is due at the end of July, 1960, but as the Deputy pointed out, the Board of Works undertakes this major work for my Department and I cannot give any guarantee that the date of July, 1960, will be adhered to.

The hold-up at Skerries was removed by the opening of the automatic exchange there at the end of March. It is a revelation to me to discover that Deputy Burke did not know that had happened because he is very alert when the Post Office opens a new service to the public in County Dublin. Applications in Rush, Lusk and Malahide are held up pending the installation of additional equipment in the relevant automatic exchanges. Rush and Lusk will take about two months and Malahide will be dealt with before the end of the year.

Several Deputies submitted that we should have more letter boxes throughout the country. These cost money to provide, instal and maintain and a large number of applications are received each year for additional boxes. If every application were acceded to, the cost would amount to a considerable sum. Most of the applications come from thinly-populated rural areas and a big proportion has to be refused because the Department from experience can accurately judge that postings would be negligible if the boxes were provided. Were present standards relaxed, the countryside would be dotted with letter boxes in many of which not even an average of one letter per day would be posted and no postal administration could provide letter boxes on that basis. The fact that a six-day frequency of postal delivery is now afforded, virtually throughout the country, reduces the justification for providing additional letter boxes. Delivery postmen carry stocks of postage stamps and accept letters for posting. I can tell Deputy Manley that when the Portlaoise reorganisation is completed next Monday 100 per cent. of households on the mainland will have a daily service.

Mr. Palmer

On Cape Clear?

Mr. Hilliard

On the mainland. Deputy Murphy and some other Deputy referred to the rate of interest payable in the Post Office Savings Bank but that rate is entirely a matter for the Minister for Finance. The Post Office runs the Savings Bank as agent for the Department of Finance and I think the question will have to be raised with the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Murphy also raised the question of a telephone service on Long Island, I think. That has been considered on many occasions. Provision of telephone services on small islands off the coast has been refused on more than one occasion. From what I have read on the matter, I find that the population of these islands is steadily decreasing. I do not think I would be justified in recommending that the service be installed on the Island. If it were decided to do so, the decision would have to be made applicable to other islands also.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Do I understand from the Minister that he feels, and that the Department feel, that an island with a population of about 50 is not entitled to a telephone service?

Mr. Hilliard

I did not say that. I said the population was steadily decreasing and we have no guarantee that there would be 50 people there in three or four years.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Then, the Minister is anticipating that the population will leave the Island—is that Government policy? Is that why they refused the service?

Mr. Hilliard

No, I am simply stating what is the trend.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Hilliard

It is a matter that can be further considered but I would need to be convinced that there was full justification for making such a recommendation.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Does the Minister agree that these 50 people living on an island one mile from the mainland are not entitled to the service?

Mr. Hilliard

I did not say that at all.

Mr. Casey

The Minister said that he could not make a recommendation. He said the people would have gone out of the island in another four or five years? Is that Government policy? I think the Minister let something slip——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to conclude.

Mr. Hilliard

I could tell the Deputy that the population in Cork will be increasing because of the benefits Government policy is bringing to Cork.

Mr. Norton

Reading Dr. Lucey's speeches one would not imagine that.

Mr. Hilliard

It is no harm to be well acquainted with trends in regard to movement of population.

Mr. Casey

"They are getting off the islands."

Mr. Hilliard

They are getting off other islands as well as islands around Ireland.

Mr. Casey

The people will be very pleased to hear that.

Mr. Hilliard

The same thing is happening on islands around the Scottish coast.

Mr. Casey

That is poor consolation to the people on our islands.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is concluding and should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Will the Minister agree to consider the position?

Mr. Hilliard

I shall consider it, yes. Deputies Palmer and Giles referred to the granting of permission to postmen to use their own motor transport where they wish to do so. Such permission is given subject to obvious necessary precautions relating, for instance, to insurance.

Another Deputy referred to the same question. I should like to point out that in many cases it becomes a problem, particularly in cases where a number of houses at which letters must be delivered are off the roadside and necessitate a lot of field work or the traversing of boreens. Even where roadside houses are in question, there are several matters that must be considered in relation to the use of motor transport by postmen. There is the question of the suitability of staff available as leave substitutes with driving experience, the supervision of vehicles, the possibility of redundancy of staff due to the greater mileage that could be covered by car. There are a number of cases throughout the country where individual postmen have been given permission to use their own motor transport. That is as far as I can go on the subject.

Deputy Norton referred to redundancy in the telegraph services. I can now inform the House that such redundancy is at a very low ebb. Any suggestion of redundancy in the service will be discussed with the staff under the Conciliation and Arbitration scheme. I cannot give Deputy Norton the guarantee he asks under this heading. It would be impossible to say what the position about redundancy in the Post Office in future will be.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister say what is the extent of such redundancy on the telegraph side?

Mr. Hilliard

I shall get the Deputy the figures. I have to write to the Deputy in relation to another figure I gave him recently.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Do I understand the Minister to assert that both he and his Department are reluctant to make any observations on the rate of interest payable on Post Office deposits, even though the scheme is entirely administered by the Minister's Department?

Mr. Hilliard

My Department acts as agent for the Minister for Finance and the rate of interest is in fact a matter for him.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Surely the Minister, acting as agent, is entitled to make recommendations and advise the appropriate Minister for whom he is agent to review the rate of interest which has not changed for several years.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Minister any observation to make on the matter raised by more than one Deputy—the inexplicable delays in trunk calls between provincial centres as compared with the relative promptitude from big centres to rural areas?

Mr. Hilliard

That will be investigated by the Department at the earliest opportunity. However, I doubt if the delays would be as long as the Deputy indicates.

Mr. Dillon

They can be astonishingly long.

Motion, "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.