Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 1960

Vol. 182 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Transport and Power.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £2,431,670 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1961, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power including certain Services administered by that Office and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

Provision was made for the services now administered by my Department in the 1959/60 Estimates for Votes Nos. 50, 51, 52 and 68. In the current year's Estimates these services have been brought within the ambit of one Vote No. 48—Transport and Power. For convenience of comparison with the 1959/60 Estimates a statement has been added at page 247 of the Book of Estimates showing the subheads for 1960/61 with the corresponding Votes and Subheads for 1959/60.

The Estimate of £3,646,670 for Transport and Power for the year 1960/61 compares with a total of £3,242,177 granted in 1959/60, including a Supplementary Estimate for £140,000—subhead 1.4. The provision for this year, therefore, shows a net increase of £404,493 compared with the provision for last year, 1959/60.

The principal increases in a gross increase of £1,026,565 are in the provisions for Salaries, Wages and Allowances, £106,896 (subhead A), constructional works at Dublin Airport, £255,000 (subhead H.3), Cork Airport, £275,000 (subhead H.4), Technical Assistance £36,500 (subhead M) and Rural Electrification £143,900 (subhead O). Other increases amount to £51,575 and bring the total to £868,871. To this must be added a decrease of £157,694 in receipts (subhead Q—appropriations in Aid) mainly on Landing Fees £90,000 (Q. 11) catering Sales Service £110,000 (Q. 18) offset by an increase in receipts from Grant Counterpart Funds £35,000 (Q.4) and Lettings of Offices etc. £8,200 (Q. 12). This decrease is equivalent to an increase in the net Estimate, making a total increase of £1,026,565.

The principal decreases are in the provisions for Redundancy Compensation—C.I.E. £149,000 (subhead F.2), Grants for Harbours, £99,352 (subhead G), Constructional Works at Shannon Airport £115,000 (subhead H.2), International Organisations, £35,140 (subhead L) and Fuel Subsidy £200,000 (no provision in 1960/61). Other decreases amount to £23,580 making a total decrease of £622,072 which when offset against the total increase of £1,026,565 gives a net increase of £404,493 in 1960/61 compared with 1959/60.

The increase of £106,896 in the provision for salaries, wages and allowances is mainly due to increases in remuneration, as from December, 1959, (£36,000) and to an increase of 65 posts in the Engineering, Architectural, Aeronautical and Air Traffic Control Services (£54,000). There is also a provision of £15,000 to cover the cost of additional staff, not yet recruited, for such services as Radio Communications etc.

These staff increases arise solely from increases in the various services provided by the Department and are not attributable to the creation of a separate Department for Transport and Power. The total number of posts provided is 936 an increase of 65 compared with 1959/60. The additional posts in Headquarters of Minister, Secretary and Deputy Assistant Secretary have been offset by the suppression of a post of Parliamentary Secretary and Deputy Secretary in the Department of Industry and Commerce.

The last occasion on which Deputies had an opportunity to consider in detail the affairs of Irish Shipping Limited in the House was in February, 1959, when the Irish Shipping Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1959, was being debated. This Act provided for an increase in the Company's authorised capital from £5,000,000 to £12,000,000 and an increase in borrowings guaranteed by the Minister for Finance from £2,000,000 to £5,000,000. On that occasion the House was informed of the success achieved by the Company and of the need for increased capital to keep the Company's fleet in first-class condition by timely replacements and to provide for additional tonnage. Deputies may recall that attention was also drawn to the very lean times through which the shipping industry all over the world was passing then.

Since that time the Company have taken delivery of another large tanker so that their fleet now consists of 18 vessels, 15 of them being dry cargo vessels totalling 101,300 tons deadweight and 3 being tankers comprising a coastal tanker of 3,350 tons and 2 deep sea tankers of 18,000 tons deadweight each. Over the same period 2 vessels totalling 17,600 tons deadweight, which were uneconomic and due for replacement, have been sold while an order for a vessel of 14,700 tons has been placed in Britain, where the necessary berth was booked in 1957. A contract for a similar vessel has been negotiated with Veroime Cork Dockyard Limited. In addition 2 vessels due for replacement have been converted to diesel propulsion in lieu of replacement and are back in service. All the Company's vessels are at present employed.

When the new vessels have been delivered the dry cargo tonnage of Irish Shipping Limited will amount to 130,700 tons deadweight, leaving a balance of 59,300 tons towards the target of 200,000, which is estimated to be the size of dry cargo fleet required to import national requirements in time of emergency. The cost of the fleet, including the two conversions but not the replacement vessels on order, was £13.6 million which was met as follows:—

Share capital contributed by the Minister for Finance

£6.9 million

Company's own resources

£5.6 million

Borrowing

£1.1 million

The Company's borrowing was arranged with their Bankers towards the purchase of the two deep-sea tankers and is being repaid by subscriptions of share capital in the Company by the Minister for Finance as provided for in the Capital Budget. The borrowing was reduced from £1.8 million to £1.1 million approximately by a payment of £687,000 from the Capital Budget for 1959/60.

The shipping slump continues with but little improvement. The tramp freight index of the British Chamber of Shipping was at its lowest of 62.7 in April, 1958. There is a seasonal tendency for freight to rise during the winter months and to drop again in the Spring. However, there has been a gain of some 13 points over the last two years from 62.7 at the 1st April, 1958, to 76.1 on the 1st April, 1960. It will be easily understood that since these figures relate to a base of 100 at 1952 and since costs have risen considerably since then, the rise has been relatively insignificant. Only the most efficient and economic ships can hope to trade profitably at current rates. The outlook is for a slow improvement in freight levels. Leading shipping authorities do not expect any spectacular rise and are so far unwilling to commit themselves to an estimate of the period which may be required to reach generally profitable levels once more.

Despite the difficult freight rate situation the Company expect to make a trading profit of £216,000 over the whole year 1959/60 before providing for depreciation. This is considerably better than what might have been expected and, I think, we can fairly claim that Irish Shipping Limited are riding out the storm reasonably well.

The importance of Irish Shipping Limited in the economy continues to increase. The activities of Irish Shipping Limited in the last 12 months have ranged over the globe including Canada, the United States, India, Japan, Australia, South Africa, South America and the Near East. The Company commenced trading into the Great Lakes through the New Seaway and two of their ships—the "Pine" and the "Oak"—have been specially adapted for this trade. The total tonnage carried by the Company in 1958/59 was 1,194,000 as compared with 944,000 in 1957/58 and 835,000 in 1956/57. Over these three years an average of 76% of the total tonnage carried was carried foreign-to-foreign and this proportion tends to increase with the growth of the fleet. This, of course, represents foreign currency earnings and is a valuable contribution to our Balance of Payments. Employment given by the Company amounts to about 750 men ashore and afloat. The repair and overhaul of vessels is carried out in Irish Shipyards to the greatest extent practicable.

There have been suggestions from time to time that Irish Shipping Ltd. vessels should be used to a greater extent in the carriage of goods to and from Irish ports. From discussions I have had with the Company I am satisfied that they never miss an opportunity of profitable trade with home ports. The number of voyages to these ports is, however, very small, and is not likely to grow. Indeed I envisage that the proportion of the Company's business done between foreign ports will continue to increase. This follows from the fact that the Company are engaged in what is perhaps the world's most fiercely competitive industry and cannot afford to trade to any particular port except where remunerative cargoes are available to them, both on the inward and outward journeys. Official measures to channel trade to our own ships would run counter to our policy of allowing Irish Shipping Ltd. to pursue in peace time the aggressive commercial policy which is necessary if they are to compete successfully in the international shipping market; they would also involve a breach of the international principles to which we adhered when we joined the Intergovernmental Maritime Consultative Organisation.

The provision of £120,638 for grants for harbour improvement works is for improvement works in progress at some half-dozen ports, and includes a contingency sum for other works for which grants have been authorised or are under consideration. Major improvement schemes which have been financed with the aid of State grants are nearing completion at Waterford and Wicklow. The State is meeting half the cost of the new passenger liner tender for Cork Harbour Commissioners, for which an order was recently placed with Liffey Dockyard Ltd. and a grant to provide half the cost of a second tender has been approved, but the latter expenditure will not fall due to be met in 1960/61. Applications for grants for improvement schemes at Drogheda and New Ross are under examination; applications for further State assistance for additional works have also been received recently from a number of other provincial harbours.

The application of the Galway Harbour Commissioners for permission to invite tenders a third time for the carrying out of the Galway Harbour Improvement Scheme is still under consideration. I have recently discussed the whole question with the Harbour Commissioners and hope to be able to convey an early decision to the Commissioners.

The provision in 1959/60 was for a total expenditure on harbours of £220,010, but expenditure in the period reached only £76,276, because certain works did not commence as soon as expected, and a number of major schemes approached completion during the time.

I should say that, in addition to the grants for harbour improvement works which are made from the Vote for Transport and Power, there is also provision in the estimates for non-voted capital services comprising a total of £100,400, for works at Dublin, Cork and Limerick for which grants from the National Development Fund were approved.

It is evident from Parliamentary Questions and from correspondence in the Press that there is a widespread interest in the economics of the Irish airports. Some persons, however, appear to confuse capital expenditure with ordinary expenditure. It is scarcely necessary for me to point out that it is not correct to debit capital expenditure against the operations of the airports in the year or years in which the money is expended. In accordance with normal procedure, the proper debit in any year is the interest on the capital and the amount of depreciation. In order that Deputies may have a clear picture of the cost of the airports, I am giving details of expenditure under various heads. The total capital expenditure on Shannon and Dublin Airports has been £14,586,807 from the beginning up to 31st March, 1960. The total expenditure on salaries has been £5,377,810. Total revenue has been £6,948,067.

In the earlier stages, the operating losses were considerable but as the number of landings increased, the position became more satisfactory. In the last financial year, 1958/59, for which accounts are fully available, the following was the position:—

Dublin Airport.

£

Total expenditure (excluding capital expenditure)

268,755

Total receipts

241,473

Operating deficit

27,282

Depreciation and Interest

173,523

Shannon Airport.

£

Total expenditure (excluding capital expenditure)

515,340

Total receipts

801,930

Operating profit

286,590

Depreciation and Interest

294,119

The financial advantages accruing directly and indirectly to the State and the community under the headings of taxation, balance of payments, employment, tourism and insurance and many other forms of economic activity and national development are considerable. All facilities for air traffic are now available and this country can play a full part in an air-minded world. Apart from their value as facilities for transport, airports give direct and indirect employment and create business activity in their neighbourhood. An airport is a large employer and a large consumer. Over 2,000 persons are employed at Shannon Airport and the annual wage bill is estimated at over £1,000,000. These figures include only those persons actually employed at the airport. They do not include the considerable additional employment created by aviation activities outside the airport, such as ticket reservation offices, the employment created by activities providing products and services to air travellers and the employment created by construction of works.

I thoroughly dislike continuing transport subsidies of any kind whatever because there is an amplitude of transport facilities. Whereas I believe that all transport subsidies, indirect or direct, should be discontinued as soon as possible, I am not able to eliminate the deficits at the airports because an increase in our landing charges would materially affect the air fare structure which is subject to international agreement. I shall continue to insist on maximum efficiency in the hope that within the next few years it will be generally realised that in a fully developed transport system, the taxpayer in general should not pay for air travellers.

Moreover, it is possible that with the growth of air traffic the deficits will continue to decline and that landing charges and other revenue will cover depreciation costs. The figure for last year's operations at Shannon show practically a break-even figure.

From time to time studies have been conducted by my Department into the comparative costs of operating Irish and foreign airports. One such review was undertaken in recent months in which the operating costs at Dublin and Shannon Airports were compared with those of major European airports, and found to be generally lower per unit cost indicating that Dublin and Shannon Airports are operated at least as economically as their foreign counterparts.

To provide for the full economic use of the Aer Lingus Viscount 808 aircraft and to permit of the limited jet operations which Aer Lingus will carry out between Shannon and Dublin, it is necessary to extend the main runway at Dublin Airport from its present length of 5,288 to 7,000 feet and to extend a subsidiary runway (4,800 feet) to 6,000 feet. The apron accommodation is also being extended.

A new hangar for jet aircraft, which is being constructed by the Irish Air Companies, is due for completion by the end of the year, when the first Boeing jets are expected by Aerlinte.

The picture at Dublin Airport is one of intense activity. During the year 1959 almost 12,300 aircraft landed at the airport, an increase of 6% on the corresponding figure for 1958. The number of passengers handled in 1959 was over 647,000, representing an increase of almost 15% on the 1958 figure. The amount of freight handled at the airport was 10,000 tons, representing an increase of over 20% on the 1958 figure. In addition to Aer Lingus, one Dutch and four British airlines operated scheduled services to and from Dublin Airport in 1959.

A number of airlines other than Aer Lingus operate air services to and from Dublin Airport under bilateral agreements. British European Airways operates services from Birmingham, London and Manchester to Dublin in pool with Aer Lingus. A number of British independent Companies also operate services: Silver City Airways Ltd. from Blackpool in pool with Aer Lingus, B.K.S. Air Transport Ltd. from Leeds in pool with Aer Lingus and singly from Newcastle, and Derby Aviation Ltd. a recently-introduced service from Luton and Derby. K.L.M. Royal Dutch Airlines operates in pool with Aer Lingus on the route Dublin/Manchester/Amsterdam.

Dublin Airport is managed by Aer Rianta on my behalf. The year just closed was a busy one and the surplus on operation—before allowing for depreciation and interest on capital— is expected to be satisfactory. Further expansion will take place this year in line with the growth in air line operation.

A careful study is being made of the major replanning and development that will be needed if the airport is to cope with the traffic through it. It is expected that in the next 5-10 years traffic at the airport will grow at a rate at least as fast as has been experienced during the last decade.

The completion date for the new jet runway at Shannon Airport was for early August. As, however, I felt it essential that the runway should be completed earlier so that advantage could be taken of the summer season, I have made special arrangements by which the runway will be ready for daylight operation early in July. Although there will be very much increased overflying of Shannon by Transatlantic jet aircraft, I am satisfied that a considerable number of jet planes will continue to use Shannon Airport and the earlier completion of the runway will, I hope, assist in attracting a number of planes which would otherwise by-pass Shannon. We are beginning to reconstruct the existing apron so that jet planes can be brought close to the terminal building and to provide covered approaches to the building for passengers alighting and embarking.

Work is in progress on a scheme of extensions and improvements to the terminal building for early completion. The improved accommodation for passengers and public will, it is expected, be adequate for any demands which may be made on the building in the foreseeable future. A new maintenance hangar has been completed and this has been leased to Seaboard and Western Airlines who propose to transfer their European maintenance activities to Shannon.

In 1959, while over 9,000 aircraft landed at Shannon Airport, there was a decrease of 20% on the 1958 figure and 12% on 1957 while the number of passengers handled at the airport in 1959, though exceeding 400,000 represented a decrease of 18% on the 1958 figure and 8% on 1957.

The number of terminal passengers (50,730 embarked, 44,001 disembarked) was down by 2% compared with 1958 and up by 9% compared with 1957. On the other hand, freight traffic handled at the airport in 1959 showed a very encouraging upward trend. There was an increase of 21% over the 1958 figure and 46% over the 1957 figure.

In the first three months of 1960, while there was a reduction of 7% in freight handled, compared with the first three months of 1959, there was an increase of 25% compared with the first quarter of 1958. Freight in transit increased by 22% over the first quarter of 1959. It is hoped that industries coming to Shannon will use this airport as a warehousing centre. Modern freight facilities are being provided and it is expected to place a contract shortly for the construction of a new freight building and to complete the project early next year.

The reduced passenger activity at the airport in 1959 as compared with the 1958 figure is attributable to the introduction of jet aircraft on the North Atlantic route. As I have already mentioned, I am confident that the turn over to jet transport will not have the very adverse effects which were first anticipated. Traffic in recent months has shown an encouraging upward trend in passenger movements as well as a continuing increase in overall freight traffic.

The completion of the new jet runway and the development of industrial activity at the airport will be accompanied by an increasing promotion campaign to ensure that Shannon will preserve its status as a major international airport.

As a result of the reduction in passenger traffic at the airport in 1959, there was a reduction in revenue and profits in the sales and catering service. Turnover in the half-year to 31st January, 1960, the latest period for which accounts are available, amounted to £694,144, which represented a decrease of about 12% on the turnover in the corresponding period of the previous year. Viewed in the light of a 15% drop in passenger traffic, the reduction in revenue of 12% was, however, less than might have been expected and revenue in recent months has continued buoyant. The initiation of a mail-order business from the Shannon Sales Centre has proved successful—the orders for the 12 months ended 31st January, 1960, totalling £93,000.

The Shannon Free Airport Development Authority was established in the second half of 1957. The Authority was to take such steps as were necessary to encourage the use of Shannon Airport to the maximum extent and to provide additional employment at the airport, apart from employment related directly to the servicing of aircraft. The Authority was an administrative body with no separate legal existence and financed from funds made available from the Catering Account.

The Authority was superseded by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited in January, 1959. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited Act, 1959 authorises:

(i) the Minister for Finance to subscribe for shares in the Company up to an aggregate limit of £1,500,000, and

(ii) the provision by way of grant-in-aid voted annually of sums which in the aggregate shall not exceed £500,000 over the whole period of the Company's activities.

The grant-in-aid is intended to meet the running expenses of the Company as well as the cost of financial incentives given to new industries to establish in the free airport area. Up to 31st March, 1960, payments by way of grants-in-aid amounted to £190,000 and capital issues to the Company amounted to £393,000.

The peculiar advantages to industrialists who establish industries at Shannon are—firstly, a location in the immediate vicinity of a large international airport with the ease and convenience of air transport for passengers and freight; secondly, the special facilities of a customs free zone; thirdly, tax remission for a period if 25 years; fourthly, the availability of modern factory buildings at reasonable rents, and fifthly, the availability of grants towards the cost of buildings, machinery and equipment and training of workers.

From the expenditure point of view the most important item is the outlay on the construction of the industrial estate. In the case of eight industrial projects for location in the estate, production has already commenced, or arrangements to commence production have reached an advanced stage. Negotiations are in progress with seventeen other promoters for the leasing of factory premises. At a recent date there were six British, five American, one French, one German and one Dutch firms negotiating for factory bays. Only three Irish firms have, so far, shown interest and this I find regrettable.

If the estimates of the promoters prove realistic—and there is no reason to believe that they are not—it is not unreasonable to expect that within a short period, employment for between 1,000 and 2,000 industrial workers should be afforded in the estate. The construction of factory buildings, costing nearly £1 million, in a period of eighteen months from a standing start is an almost unique record of Irish building activity.

The provision of adequate housing, both for executives and workers either in or near the estate, is a particularly important problem and is receiving the urgent attention of the Company.

The activities of the Company go beyond the creation of an industrial estate and include the promotion of all types of business activities at the airport. To increase traffic at the airport the Company maintains close contacts with the leading airlines, travel agencies and Bord Fáilte Éireann, and sponsors or operates advertising campaigns, tour-sales programmes, window displays, etc., in the United States. The Company is also actively engaged in association with other bodies and organisations in promoting the sale of package tours and specialised tours of this country —such as golf and fishing tours.

The new housing at Shannon is being planned after the most exhaustive research by our own and foreign experts into how the employees in the factories are likely to choose their dwelling places, and after making allowances for the number likely to come from the neighbouring area and to go to reside in the towns and villages nearby.

I am determined that the new community centre should be distinctive and attractive. I hope that the employers and workers at Shannon will from the first, wish to join together in establishing a relationship which embodies the most modern concepts. For this purpose the Shannon Development Company have been consulting our own Productivity Committee and through it have secured the advice of international experts attached to the European Productivity Agency.

May I stress again the advantages of the Shannon industrial area purely from the standpoint of freight convenience? We know that firms in New York fly materials as much as 3,000 miles for partial assembly and fly back the semi-finished product. Examples of the products which we believe will be particularly suitable for manufacture at Shannon are scientific instruments, office machinery, jewellery, plastic goods, toys, musical instruments, light engineering equipment, and in a very appropriate sense aircraft parts.

Construction of the new airport at Ballygarvan near the city of Cork, commenced some months ago. Preliminary drainage and fencing work has already been completed and work is at present in progress on construction of runways, taxiways and apron. Work on erection of the buildings will commence this summer. The airport will be fully equipped with up-to-date lighting, landing and navigational aids, including an instrument landing system on the main runway.

The airport, costing a million pounds, is scheduled for completion in July, 1961, which will be in time for the main summer season travel. I am doing everything possible to see that this target is achieved. Every contractor has been made aware that every day saved adds to the value of the first year's aircraft movements, but inclement weather is an unpredictable factor.

Aer Lingus will operate scheduled services at Cork. A number of British companies are also interested in operating scheduled services at the airport. I believe that the new airport will generate substantial new air traffic and that it will be a notable tourist attraction, drawing in visitors direct to fish and see the incomparable beauty spots in the province of Munster.

In the year ended 31st March, 1959, Aer Lingus had a balance to credit of £48,943 after discharging private loan obligations and superannuation costs, the gross operating surplus was £204,000. In the six months ended 30th September, 1959, the operating surplus was £420,000. This operating surplus is exactly the same as the surplus for the corresponding half of 1958/59. When the final accounts for the year ended 31st March, 1960, are available, however, it may be found that the surplus on the operating account for the full year will be lower than that made in 1958/59 due to a number of factors including wage increases and increased costs and the effect of the two industrial disputes which reduced the Company's operation during the year.

In the financial year 1958/59, Aer Lingus planes flew five million miles and carried a half-million passengers. The number of passenger miles flown was 121,000,000. The average distance per passenger flight was 234 miles and the average fare paid was £6.09. In 1959/60 Aer Lingus carried over 550,000 passengers, 7,800,000 kilos of cargo and 1,570,000 kilos of mail. These represent significant increases over the figures for the preceding year particularly in view of the effect of the industrial disputes to which I have referred. Tremendous efforts will be required to develop what must be mainly a short-haul service even although continental travel increases.

Three new routes have been opened this year viz. Dublin/Leeds, Dublin/ Cherbourg, and Shannon/London. Fares have been reduced and frequencies increased on certain existing routes. The greater carrying capacity, combined with an intensive sales drive by the Company, is expected to increase business this year. In this connection it is of interest to note that from April to October, a total of approximately 550,000 seats will be available on scheduled Aer Lingus services. This represents a 12.5% increase on the figure for the same period last year. It is most satisfactory to note in relation to the question of capacity that Aer Lingus achieved last year a load factor, or in simple terms the average amount of seat capacity sold, of 67.2%—the highest in Europe. I think we should congratulate the Company on this fine achievement.

The present operating aircraft flect consists of 7 Viscount 808 aircraft, 7 Friendship F.27 aircraft and 5 D.C.3 aircraft.

I should at this point make two important comments on the future of Aer Lingus. I believe that all transport companies should pay their way. Aer Lingus has shown increasing financial stability since 1950 but has not yet begun to pay the taxpayer for the investment of his capital in this growing enterprise. With the growth of the fleet and the use of the more economically operated aircraft, I hope that in the near future the Company will, without restricting its services, begin to remunerate the State capital invested in the enterprise so that the enterprise will be independent of State assistance. Further, to become a reality, the costs must be kept down and the present high standards of efficiency improved. Secondly, I must make a brief comment on the circumstances attending the recent strike.

I hope that relations within the Company between the staff and management will be friendly. I wish, however, to make it clear beyond all doubt that since I have responsibility for the general well-being of the Company, I have informed the directors that I am aware that a very exacting standard of discipline is maintained by the Company, for which I wish to give full credit to the air pilots and staff of the Company. I have, however, urged on the directors the need for the maintenance, and, if possible, the improvement of this high standard and I uphold the decision of the directors and management that the standards should be more exacting even than those of other air lines.

This unvarying tradition will contribute to the fine record held by the Company for many years, albeit granted that Providence equally plays a part in the affairs of man and planes. I feel quite sure that this high standard will attract to the corps of air pilots the kind of men who have up to now shown such zeal in the performance of their duties.

Aerlinte continued its transatlantic service from Shannon to New York and Boston throughout the year. In the eight months of operation in 1958, the Company carried something over 13,000 transatlantic passengers. In 1959 the Company carried 23,000 transatlantic passengers, over 37 per cent. of these terminating or commencing their journeys in this country. This conforms with the estimate made in 1957 of 22,680 revenue passengers. The Company will continue to operate the service with piston-engined aircraft leased from Seaboard and Western. Airlines until next December when it will introduce into service the latest Boeing jet aircraft to replace the super Constellations at present in service. During the coming Summer all except a few operators on the North Atlantic route will operate jet aircraft. This presents Aerlinte with a major challenge during the current year. The introduction of jet services has produced everywhere the inevitable unanticipated cost increases some of which are no doubt temporary. I have no doubt that Aerlinte will find the going somewhat rough in the early stages. To meet this challenge the Company using new sales offices in America have launched an intensive selling campaign which it expects will lead to increased traffic in both passengers and cargo.

I am glad to say that the prospects for Aerlinte look better this year than last year. The number of passengers carried for the first four months of this year shows an increase of 33? per cent. over the number for the corresponding period of 1959. The past few months have shown a substantial increase of 45 per cent. in bookings over the same period last year. The present position is buoyant both in numbers of forward bookings and in revenue taken for these forward bookings. Until the Company obtains its jet aircraft it will be at some disadvantage with lines which operate jets. However, as an offset to the speed of the jets there is a reduction in fares for piston engine aircraft and this reduction compensates in some measure for the attraction of the more speedy aircraft. Meanwhile, Aer Lingus continues to expand its European operations and the combined network of Aer Lingus and Aerlínte covers a total mileage of 11,000 miles, extending from Copenhagen and Rome to Boston and New York.

In the year ended 31st March, 1959, the excess of expenditure over revenue was approximately £790,000. Certified figures for the year ended 31st March, 1960, are not yet available, but the loss on that year's operations is estimated at £525,000. The estimate of losses originally made for the two years fell short of these combined figures by 10 per cent., not an excessive figure. The first of the three Boeing 720 jet aircraft on order will be delivered in November, 1960. Preparations are well advanced for its introduction into commercial service on 15th December, 1960. The remaining two will be delivered in February and March, 1961. The Company is confident that the introduction into service of these, the most up-to-date now being produced and the fastest across the Atlantic, will put them in the strongest possible position and they are optimistic in regard to future prospects on this route. As my predecessor indicated last year, however, everything depends on the general growth of tourist traffic from the U.S.A. and this in turn is to a great extent dependent upon the number of additional bedrooms with baths provided by the hotel industry.

Last year, when the Vote for Civil Aviation and Meteorological Services was being introduced, it was explained that in order to meet the future financial requirements of the Air Companies, the Government had decided to introduce legislation to increase substantially the authorised share capital of Aer Rianta. In August, 1959, the Air Navigation and Transport (No. 2) Act was passed authorising an increase of capital of the Company to £10,000,000 and increasing the limit of the borrowing power of the Company to £5,000,000.

The additional capital for which provision was made in the Act was required by Aer Rianta to finance the purchase by Aerlinte of jet aircraft at an estimated cost of £6,000,000 and to provide for repayments of £655,500 to British European Airways and £798,500 to Aerlinte as well as providing additional share capital for Aer Lingus.

Under Capital Services, Subhead E of the Vote includes a provision of £15,000 for the purchase of Facsimile Transmitting Equipment for the Meteorological Service. It is intended to establish a Central Analysis and Forecasting Office in Dublin city. It is also hoped that the establishment of an independent unit primarily concerned with general forecasting and its location in the major population centre will result in a better and more accessible service to the man in the street while making some savings possible.

The provision for C.I.E. in this year's Estimates consists of the statutory grant-in-aid of £1,175,000 and a sum of £175,000 in respect of the recoupment to C.I.E. of the cost of redundancy compensation payable by them in the current financial year.

The year ended 31st March, 1960, was the first year of the five year reorganisation period by the end of which C.I.E. are required by the Transport Act, 1958, to be self-supporting. The task confronting the Board of C.I.E. is a formidable one but the enthusiasm and vigour with which they are applying themselves to it is most heartening.

C.I.E. are pursuing an aggressive sales campaign in their drive to secure more business. The removal, under the Transport Act, 1958, of the outmoded restrictions on the commercial adaptability of C.I.E. has enabled the Board to enter into package deals with various firms to carry their traffic on an annual contract basis. The amount of the additional freight business already obtained by C.I.E. through package deals amounts to over £250,000 per annum.

The economy measures adopted by C.I.E. are designed to ensure that the Board's operations are carried out with a maximum efficiency without impairing the quality of services provided for the public. With regard to the closing of branch railway lines, C.I.E. are empowered by the Transport Act, 1958, to terminate any particular train service where they are satisfied that its operation is uneconomic and that there is no prospect of its continued operation being economic within a reasonable period. Before a decision is taken by C.I.E. to close a branch line all relevant factors are carefully considered. A decision to terminate a train service is taken only when the Board are fully satisfied that there is no prospect of the particular railway line being economic within a reasonable period. This means in practice that so large a proportion of travellers find that the railway stations do not convenience them as to make a bus service more modern, more up to date and acceptable. Where train services have been terminated C.I.E. have provided satisfactory substitute passenger and goods services. The closing of branch railway lines which have been found to be uneconomic is in no way peculiar to this country. Many branch lines are being closed in various other countries for example Britain and the Netherlands where the volume and density of rail traffic are far greater than in this country. In the Netherlands 67 per cent. of the passenger stations have been closed. There are certain almost irrevocable trends in the pattern of transport.

First, in a matter of years the majority of people in the advanced economies will have motor cars or motor bicycles with which the railway will have to compete.

Secondly, in every country the roads will be widened and improved over several decades to cope with this increased traffic regardless of the railways' future.

Thirdly, in a country of scattered homesteads lacking huge mineral resources and with a low density of population which could rise by 50 per cent. without affecting the general analysis of the position, the substitution of bus and lorry traffic where the railway is uneconomic in operation will not materially increase the cost of the road system. Assistance can be provided where required by once and for all supplementary improvement grants.

The taxpayer should not be asked to subsidise the running costs of any form of public transport because there is great amplitude of transport facilities.

The Transport Act, 1958, was approved unanimously by all the major Parties. Only one section was challenged seriously, that making it possible for C.I.E. to close lines without providing substitute services. In fact C.I.E. are not likely to take advantage of this privilege. This unanimity has made the work of C.I.E. much easier in that there is a general agreement that C.I.E. must pay and pay its way it must.

I have asked the Board to complete the main examination of uneconomic lines without delay so that the particular stretches of railroad whose retention is likely may be delineated and so that the total mileage of track whose future is questionable, may be reduced as much as possible, within the earliest practicable period.

The financial results of C.I.E. operations for the year ended 31st March, 1960 which was the first year of the 5 year reorganisation programme, are encouraging. C.I.E. have reduced by over £1 million to £700,000 the annual loss of the Company compared with the previous year; the most important improvement was on the railways where the Company reduced the loss from £1.2 million to £500,000 by a combination of increased revenue and decreased expenditure, a most remarkable result and with possibly no parallel in railway history.

About 80% of C.I.E. train services are now operated with diesel traction and conversion of the remainder of the system—principally the part of the G.N.R. taken over by C.I.E.—will be completed within the next few years. Considerable economies in operating costs have been achieved by the change over to diesel traction.

I have confidence that the policy which the Board of C.I.E. are pursuing will lead to realisation of the objective of the Transport Act, 1958—a self-supporting public transport system free from the demoralising effects of subsidisation by the State. The burden on the Exchequer will only be partly eliminated by the ending of the subsidy. The present annual cost is about £3½ million. Losses and capital adjustments totalled £23 million approximately in 10 years, and will take years to be finally amortised. The fact that the reorganisation measures foreshadowed for the British Transport Commission are similar in many respects to those adopted here for C.I.E. tends to confirm the wisdom of the policy for the reorganisation of C.I.E.

The sole factor in determining the future pattern of public transport is that of providing the most modern, economic and convenient form of transport.

If ever we needed an example of how desperately this country requires modern, searching, unsentimental, 20th-century dynamic thinking and action through the application of modern, fast moving techniques, C.I.E. can be that supreme example.

The provision in the Estimate of £175,000 for redundancy compensation is in accordance with the Transport Act, 1958, which provides for the payment of grants to C.I.E. out of voted money in respect of redundancy compensation payable under that Act and the Great Northern Railway Act, 1958. The fact that the State provides for compensation on a generous scale for redundant C.I.E. workers enables C.I.E. reorganisation measures to be carried through smoothly without causing hardship to workers dismissed as a consequence.

Included in the provision of £38,000 for Technical Assistance in the Estimates is a provision for a grant of £35,000 towards the cost of establishing a development and research unit by C.I.E. This grant will be recouped from the Grant Counterpart Reserve Fund. The C.I.E. research unit will concentrate on special technical problems, in particular the use of containers, flats and pallets in connection with the co-ordination of road and rail services.

The electrifying process of examining costs, reducing waste, stepping up output, so well demonstrated by C.I.E., is required in almost every part of our national economy. C.I.E. is deserving of this Counterpart Fund contribution.

With the withdrawal shortly of the remaining C.I.E. barges from the Grand Canal the use of this canal for commercial purposes will come to an end. This raises the question of the future of that canal. Under the existing statutory provisions C.I.E. are precluded from closing the canal to navigation unless it has not been used for public navigation for at least three years. It has been represented by certain interests that the preservation of the Grand Canal as a waterway is essential for the maintenance of a link between the east coast and the Shannon. On the other hand, it has been represented from other quarters that the preservation of the canal solely for pleasure boating could not be justified on economic grounds; that boats can be conveyed more quickly and more conveniently by road from Dublin to the Shannon and that the canal itself has no particular attraction as a waterway for pleasure boating.

I am reasonably certain that the answer lies in the development of boat hire services on the Shannon and other waterways for which much preparation will be required. I do not expect any worthwhile growth in the use of canals for pleasure boating. Parts of the canal system will have to be maintained for water conservation purposes thus satisfying in part the ambition of local angling development associations for most of whom, in any event, there is a huge choice of lakes and rivers.

During the passage of the Road Transport Act, 1959, through the Oireachtas, I undertook to consider specially any genuine cases in which the statutory increase of 7 cwts. would appear to be inadequate. All cases of this kind which came up for consideration have now been dealt with and Deputies will be glad to know that none of the hauliers affected has had his position worsened. The hauliers concerned have been warned, however, that the additional weight allowed for attachments can be used for that purpose only and that it may not be used to acquire larger lorries with greater basic carrying capacity.

The educational tours for school children and the all-in holiday rail tickets are evidence of initiative and imagination in C.I.E.'s drive for increased passenger business. In the case of the educational tours, bookings to date for this year exceed 80,000.

The popularity of C.I.E. coach tours continues to grow. The numbers carried have increased from 5,721 in 1957 to 6,623 in 1958, and 7,801 in 1959. The total of 7,801 passengers carried in 1959 came from 43 different countries: no less than 2,979 came from the United States.

In 1958 extern tours were admitted on an experimental basis. In that year 10 extern operators operated 10 tours and brought in some 3,000 passengers. For the 1960 season, 19 tours have been licensed and it is expected that the number of passengers will show an increase on the 6,000 figure for 1959.

It is estimated that in 1959 the extern tours provided additional revenue of the order of £100,000 from tourists and benefited 28 hotels.

The need for increased investment at home in productive enterprises has been repeatedly stressed. In this connection it is not out of place for me to refer to the position as regards investment in vehicles required for the transport of merchandise. C.I.E. have adequate facilities for the transport of goods by rail and road and have complete freedom to negotiate package deals with individual firms for the handling of their transport requirements. The fact that such package deals have already been successfully negotiated with a large number of firms proves that C.I.E. are in a position to quote competitive rates. Expenditure by business and other concerns on the acquisition of vehicles for the carriage of their own merchandise tends to increase still further the country's surplus transport capacity.

I am, therefore, appealing strongly to those contemplating the purchase of vehicles for the transport of their goods to examine critically the costings and not to embark on any such expenditure unless they are satisfied that C.I.E. and the other licensed carriers could not do the work more cheaply and as efficiently.

Two aspects of the cross-Channel trade which have been engaging my particular attention are improvements in the facilities for the importation of passenger-accompanied motor cars and an improvement generally in travelling conditions particularly at Dún Laoghaire Pier.

On the Holyhead-Dún Laoghaire route a pilot scheme which was introduced on 1st July, 1959, for the carriage of a limited number of cars on the mail boats proved successful. Some 900 cars were carried between July-October, 1959, and capacity has been increased this year. Plans have now been drawn up for the installation in 1961 of cranes which will speed-up operations and will allow a much larger number of cars to be carried.

To improve passenger facilities at Dún Laoghaire further works were carried out for the 1959 tourist season consisting of a high-level enclosure on the west side of the Pier connected by a foot-bridge to the existing high-level enclosure on the east side. The benefits of this additional accommodation were manifest during the peak traffic period when it enabled both sides of the Pier to be used for departures; furthermore, it enables advantage to be taken of the large-scale facilities available on the east side when, on occasions of adverse weather conditions, the ships had to sail from the west side; and by enabling disembarkation to take place at two levels simultaneously it speeded up the handling of ships arriving at the west or normal arrivals side of the Pier. Passenger handling was, therefore, much smoother during the season despite a tendency towards sharper traffic peaks in the July/ August period. For instance, an all time record of 16,000 passengers were dealt with on Dún Laoghaire Pier in one day in August, 1959, without any untoward incidents.

For the coming season, the high-level enclosure on the west side of the Pier will be extended and certain other improvement works estimated to cost £73,000 are planned.

Since July, 1959, I have met personally, as have the officers of my Department, the Chairman of the British Transport Commission and the executive heads of the Commission responsible for rail and steamship travel to Ireland. I also discussed the general importance of this traffic with the British Minister of Transport.

Every effort has been and will be made to secure an improvement of the amenities on the various routes but particularly the Irish Mail route. Very great improvement has taken place; more is needed. The improvement, however, is subject to the limitation imposed by the nature of the traffic, i.e., the relatively high peaks, for only about 10 weeks in the year, with a few peaks of only 48 to 72 hours in the number travelling. To provide facilities beyond a certain limit to cater adequately for such peak periods could be costly and wasteful since the facilities would not be used during the rest of the year.

With this limitation in mind I hope that the new Chairman of the Midland Area Board of the British Transport Commission will be conferring with us here.

Apart from the improvements in the transport of cars between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead, an air car ferry service is now in operation between Dublin and Liverpool. The service will provide one flight each way per day at the beginning, rising to 4 flights each way per day during the height of the season. It is expected that this service will carry 3,000 cars in the season, rising to 10,000 if the demand increases. There has been a compelling need in recent times for the provision of air car ferry services. In order to develop our tourist trade, it is essential to ensure that visitors from Great Britain and elsewhere who wish to bring their cars to this country by air can do so with the minimum difficulty. I trust that the new venture will be successful and that in a comparatively short time it will be possible to provide additional services from other points in Great Britain.

I feel that there are great possibilities about the car ferry business. Statistics on other ferry routes indicate that once the service is established, an ever-increasing volume of traffic is generated. There has been a phenomenal increase in the number of motor vehicles in Britain in recent years. Statistics indicate that there is at present one car in Great Britain for every 34 yards of roadway. Comparable statistics for this country indicate that there is one car for approximately every 170 yards of roadway. Clearly there is a vast tourist potential for motoring holidays in this country, and the establishment of car ferry services should play an important part in this development.

The generation of electricity has risen from 314 million units in 1938 to 1,898 million units in 1959—a sixfold increase. Our total consumption of electricity per head of the population is still, however, only about half the average for Europe. Consumption per head for domestic purposes is indeed somewhat over the European average but consumption for industrial uses is much lower. In 1958/59 consumption of electricity for industrial power amounted to only 475 million units as compared with 670 million units for domestic purposes. Consumption for industrial purposes has, however, been increasing at about the European average, thus reflecting the expansion of industry here. The further development of industry under the impact of the Government's economic programme should lead to a continued substantial increase in the industrial use of current and help bring our overall consumption closer to the level prevailing in Western Europe generally.

As I announced a few months ago I have conveyed to the Electricity Supply Board general approval of the Board's proposals for expansion of generating capacity in the years 1964/ 65 to 1968/69 based on a projected annual increase of 7 per cent. in demand. Planning for the programme must commence at this early date because it takes up to 5 years to bring a new power plant from drawing board to full operation. This programme will, however, remain subject to change in the light of developments and further expansion may be necessary if the demand should require it. There has already been an encouraging sign in that the demand in the year to 31st March, 1960, has shown an increase of about 10 per cent.

Before the first plants in the new programme come into operation in 1964/65, the Electricity Supply Board will have brought into commission at Rhode, Co. Offaly, and Bellacorick, Co. Mayo, 120 megawatts of new plant all of which will use milled peat. This will increase the total generating capacity of the Board's plant to 808 megawatts. The new programme envisages the addition of a further 340 megawatts of which 160 megawatts will be fired by milled peat and 180 megawatts by oil, and provides for the absorption by 1968/1969 of the annual output of all the bogs which are at present considered economically usable for the generation of electricity.

Oid-fired stations will be sandwiched between peat-fired stations so as to ensure maintenance of electricity supplies in a year in which weather conditions were very adverse for either turf or water generation of electricity or both. To ensure continuity of bog development and employment by Bord na Móna the oil stations will be used only to the extent that water and peat generation is insufficient to meet demand. For the development and exploitation of the bogs in connection with this programme it is expected that Bord na Móna will provide additional employment for up to about 1,000 men each summer falling to about half that number in winter.

All the more important rivers have already been harnessed for electricity generation. Stations on the remaining rivers would be uneconomic in present circumstances having regard particularly to the high initial capital costs and current high interest rates. The Electricity Supply Board, however, are continuing to collect data and investigate other rivers with a view to possible later development for hydro generation. The Board have in operation a 15 megawatt generating station at Arigna using approximately 45,000 tons a year of native coal. Small quantities of native coal are also used at Ringsend Station.

Looking to the future, this country has a special interest in nuclear energy. As national income rises, so will the demand for electric energy. Our known natural resources of energy are strictly limited and we must be prepared, in good time, for the day when the nation will be forced to rely on nuclear energy to supplement, if not replace, other available sources of electric energy. The E.S.B. is keeping in touch with development in this field.

Generation from water, peat and native coal in the year ended 31st March, 1960, was over 73% of the total. In addition Irish refined oil was the fuel used for about 4½% of generation in that year.

The programme of rural electrification, which was initiated shortly after the war, is now nearing completion. At the 31st March, 1960, some 688 areas had been completed out of a total of 792, and at the present rate of progress it is expected that the balance of the programme will be completed in about two years from now. The completion of 688 areas has involved: the erection of over ¾ million poles; the stringing of over 40,000 miles of line; the connection of ¼ million new customers and the expenditure of £26¾ million.

These statistics, impressive as they may be, are but the reflection of the virtual revolution which the advent of rural electrification has brought about in the economic and social life of rural Ireland. In fact this revolution is only beginning and there are many evidences that the scheme will, in time, have even deeper and wider effects.

This achievement, bringing our rural electricity development to a stage which is creditable by West European standards is one of which the Electricity Supply Board is justly proud, particularly as the scheme was designed and carried out entirely by the Board's staff and based to a substantial degree on the use of Irish materials. The very success of the scheme has, however, tended to obscure the cost of it, and it is just as well to realise that the programme has involved a heavy burden on both the electricity consumer and the taxpayer. The justification for the burden is that the scheme has brought amenities and services to rural areas which they might have had to do without for years, or even decades, if the extension of electricity to rural areas were to be decided on purely economic grounds.

The total cost of the rural electrification scheme when completed will amount to some £30 million, of which some £5 million will have been met by the State subsidy and the balance by the Electricity Supply Board. Despite the element of State subsidy, the supply of current under the scheme is showing a growing loss which for the year ended 31st March, 1959 amounted to over £650,000. The most uneconomic areas for development have been left to the last and a further increase in losses can be expected. These losses have to be borne by the Electricity Supply Board revenue as a whole and therefore fall on the urban consumer.

I should emphasise that under no circumstances will there be any ultimate element of subsidy on current operations. Consumption in newly developed areas tends to be low at first, although it does increase somewhat as the years pass and this will help to reduce losses. A wider use of electricity by the farmer would undoubtedly increase his returns. In the farmyard, there are many and varied applications of electric power. A mere one h.p. electric motor will drive many machines in regular use even on a small farm. One of the most valuable of the amenities which electricity can supply for the farmer is a supply of water piped to any point in the farmyard where he needs it and, of course, to his dwellinghouse. I am glad to say that there is a growing demand for group water schemes from house-holders who use a common well and pump. The Electricity Supply Board is co-operating fully in this manner with local authorities and with the Departments of Local Government and of Agriculture.

During the year 1959 our coal imports came mainly from Britain 891,000 tons, but substantial quantities were also imported from the U.S. 462,000 tons, Poland 117,000 tons and Germany 113,000 tons. The magnitude of pit-head stocks in Europe suggests that the present overall situation of ample supplies is likely to continue.

During most of 1959 Irish anthracite producers, generally, were able to dispose of their output although some difficulties are currently being experienced. The possibility of solving these difficulties is being examined and I am in touch with the collieries and the coal trade with a view to easing the position. The output of anthracite was lower than in the previous year, being 138,000 tons against 151,000 tons in 1958. Opencast production was commenced by a few anthracite mining companies but production so far has been small. The Arigna mines, which produce semi-bituminous coal, found the competition from cheap imported coal very severe and the mines generally had to cut back production somewhat. The steady demand provided by the electricity generating station at Arigna has proved of great assistance in maintaining output and employment in the area.

The Electricity Supply Board is also helping by accepting the maximum possible quantity of Arigna coal at its Ringsend station having regard to the fact that it is less economic than imported coal and is technically unsuitable for the boilers at Ringsend, which were designed for fuels of quite different characteristics.

I have suggested to the Arigna mine owners possibilities of formulating jointly a technical assistance scheme for the improvement of the quality and utilisation of Arigna coal.

Because of the good season, Bord na Móna had an exceptionally high output last year. For the previous year which, of course, was a year of disastrous weather for the Board the output was 675,000 tons of sod and milled peat. The corresponding figure for the year ended 31st March, 1960, was 2,550,000 tons and revenue from sales exceeded £3 million for the first time. With normal weather, output this year is planned to reach 2,290,000 tons. Output of peat moss for 1958/59 and 1959/60 respectively was 111,000 bales and 160,000 bales. The target for the current year is 200,000 bales, most of which is for the export market.

During the year industrialists have shown a growing interest in turf as a fuel, and the Board also exported 22,000 tons of milled peat to a London gas-works where it is used to improve the quality of the coke. As this latter development becomes more widely known, the Board is hopeful that the demand for milled peat will increase. The new briquette factory at Derrinlough has commenced production and the second factory at Croghan, will, it is hoped, be in production by the end of this year. Production of briquettes will then be increased to 250,000 tons per annum as against 45,000 tons in the year ended 31st March, 1960.

Recently a number of prominent businesses have installed peat fired heating systems because of the absolute net economy effected after calculating all possible costs. I hope that consulting engineers will be more open-minded in regard to the use of peat and electricity as a source of heating power.

It is Government policy that all Government Departments, State bodies and local authorities should use native fuel to the utmost practicable extent and should when planning new buildings or heating installations give special consideration to the use of peat and electricity.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

This is a really phoney Estimate and the lengthy memorandum which the Minister has just read is a not very successful effort to put some air of attraction around what is very unattractive when the realities are seen. This Ministry is called the Ministry of Transport and Power and the net cost this year is £3,646,000. This of course is mainly a Ministry to deal with continuing losses, which are likely to continue, on various matters of air development. In this Vote what is put under the heading of "Administration, Etc.," amounts to £916,000. Of that my calculation is that about £650,000 has to deal with salaries, travelling and incidental expenses in connection with aviation services or things that are subsidiary to aviation.

As far as the main items in the Vote are concerned, apart from the sum of £916,000 which is required for administrative expenses there is a sum of £1,350,000 which is a grant towards C.I.E., C.I.E. being described, when Deputies desire to ask the Minister for details of its administration, as an independent company into the working details of which he is not disposed to go. However, he is a paying agent to the Company in the sum of £1,350,000 in respect of an annual subsidy and an amount for compensation to redundant employees.

There is a very big sum of £1,685,000 in connection with airports, that is, for the purchase of land and for various constructional works at the three airports. The only other item of any considerable size is a sum of £143,900 which is the State contribution towards rural electrification. There are other small items: £11,000 for compensation, arising out of war matters; £41,000 in respect of certain subscriptions towards international organisations; £38,000 for technical assistance; and a sum of £120,000 in respect of harbours.

Of the 48 pages in the memorandum, more than 20 of them are devoted to aviation, the various airports and the two Companies; in other words more than half the memorandum is devoted to what is in fact the matters with which the Ministry is chiefly concerned, aviation and aviation losses.

Irish Shipping, the Minister has told us, is riding out the storm reasonably well. Why could the Minister not give us an ordinary commercial account in respect of Irish Shipping, showing the capital that has been invested in it and showing what the return has been; first of all, showing what the operational expenses and revenue have been and showing how far it is proposed to have Irish Shipping repay the State for the capital moneys put at its disposal? The Minister's only comment on Irish Shipping is to say that it is riding out the storm reasonably well.

I propose to enter into the matter of aviation in more detail later. There is a record of losses, and all the Minister has said is that the loss in the first year for Aerlinte was not as bad as expected; but, undoubtedly, the estimated loss for the year ended last March is much worse than had been forecast by his predecessor a year ago.

C.I.E. is being praised for its attack upon certain things, for the cutting out of unremunerative services, the elimination of waste, and so on. I propose to go into that in more detail in a moment. Electricity presents a fair enough picture which would have been much fairer if the Department of Industry and Commerce had not intervened some years ago to coerce the E.S.B. into greater capital development of stations than they thought was required. Coal requires no great comment; as far as turf is concerned, we know that last year, the bad year, the losses of Bord na Móna amounted to £900,000. That they should have losses in that year was not a surprise to anybody but it was a considerable surprise to find that their losses were as heavy as £900,000. When they produced a report regarding that loss, the best they could say about the future was that it would take some years—I am not sure they did not say many years— of reasonable weather before they could arrive at their old position and pay off the losses incurred in that disastrous year.

I wonder would the Minister apply two of his more rhetorical phrases to these other various services that come under his control? At page 33, in dealing with C.I.E., he says:—

If ever we needed an example of how desperately this country requires modern, searching, unsentimental, 20th-century dynamic thinking and action through the application of modern, fast moving techniques, C.I.E. can be that supreme example.

To how many of the other matters under the Minister's control would he apply what he thinks is so necessary —modern, searching, unsentimental, dynamic thinking and action to the application of modern fast moving techniques?

On page 34 he permits himself another rhetorical outburst:—

The electrifying process of examining costs, reducing waste, stepping up output so well demonstrated by C.I.E., is required in almost every part of our national economy...

and C.I.E. is deserving of the Counterpart Fund contribution for that reason. C.I.E. is praised. It is probably the only sphere of the Minister's activities that calls for anything in the way of praise. But, whatever praise is given to it, it must be remembered that there is a new view now being taken of the transport services provided by that particular company.

Legislation was introduced here in 1956 to meet a situation which had developed because of a Supreme Court judgment to the effect that vehicles could be hired, and that did not count, as if the man who hired a vehicle was running transport without having a licence. That, of course, tore a tremendous gap in the legislation of earlier years in respect of transport. Steps were taken immediately to repair that gap, to prevent its being widened, and to close it against other operators.

Speaking on the Second Stage of the Transport Bill of 1955—the Bill was introduced in 1955 and became an Act in 1956—the present Taoiseach made several remarks with regard to transport. At Column 665 of Volume 154 of the Official Report, 22nd February, 1955, he said, while putting aside the view "that this is a suitable occasion for a comprehensive review of the whole transport situation ... this Bill is something more in the minds of many people than a mere rectification of a position that arose accidentally from a court decision."

Speaking of the Irish Merchant Lorry Owners' Association, he said:—

The contention of this association is that the purpose of the 1933 legislation has failed; that, at any rate, the aims which were then entertained have not been achieved, and they urge that the whole structure and policy of our public transport undertaking should be scrutinised and overhauled.

In the next column he mentioned some observations he would "like to make in that regard", and the part to which I want to draw particular attention is the view held about transport matters in 1956, which is as follows:—

.... The Merchant Lorry Owners' Association have in their minds the idea, which is, I think, shared by many of the public, that the aim of the Road Transport Act of 1933 and the purpose of the restrictions imposed by that Act upon the carriage of goods for reward on the road by motor vehicles was solely to preserve the railways. Now, that was not the aim of that legislation, and I can speak with some authority in the matter because I was responsible for framing it and for bringing it to the House; if any Deputy is interested enough to look up the matter, he will find that in the speech in which I submitted the Road Transport Act, 1933, to the House, I made it quite clear that that was not its purpose and that the aim was to provide this country with a nationwide transport service operating by rail or by road, as the public required, a service that would be obliged by law to carry, without discrimination as between persons, or trades, or towns, or ports all goods that were offered for transportation at known terms and at uniform fixed rates.

At Column 667, the then Deputy Lemass continued:—

.... I agree that the public will not be willing to maintain the present restrictions on the operation of private lorries on the roads, if the public transport services continue to need substantial subsidies from the taxpayers, or if they prove to be too costly in their operation, or incapable of giving efficient service to the public.

At Column 669, Deputy Lemass said, presenting the same point of view:—

It is important that there should be in existence throughout the whole country a public transport service that is bound by law to carry everybody's goods at fixed charges without discrimination. The merchant in the town who wants to operate his lorry occasionally for reward is not prepared to accept the obligations of a common carrier. The Act of 1933 placed upon licensed hauliers, common carriers, having got their licence, the obligation not to carry on their road transport business on a discriminatory basis. They were bound by that Act to carry the classes of goods they were licensed to carry upon uniform terms.

There was, then, a reference to the fact that, if all operators were allowed to develop a system in which they could cut in upon the business available for public hauliers and transport services, a very serious situation might arise; and at the bottom of Column 670, Deputy Lemass went on to say:—

It would, however, be a very different matter to allow merchants the facilities they are seeking, the right to carry goods for reward whenever it suits them and without accepting any obligation to carry goods for everybody or to give uniform treatment to everybody. We cannot have it both ways, have public transport services operating without loss and, at the same time, unrestricted carriage of goods for reward on the roads by private lorry owners. We must make a choice between these two courses and I am quite satisfied in my own mind—and I think most people who will examine the matter will arrive at the same conclusion— that the better choice is to seek to maintain adequate public transport services and adopt whatever measures are deemed to be needed in order to make that possible without subsidy.

At the top of Column 671, Deputy Lemass said:—

Everybody can see the problems created by the present restrictions. They cannot visualise quite as easily the very much more acute problems that would arise if these restrictions were removed and if, as a consequence, the public transport operator, the common carrier, were to disappear from the countryside.

To-day, the Minister for Transport and Power speaks of outmoded restrictions put upon the carrying business. Does not that phrase mean the old-time public carriers disappeared? Was that not the purpose of the 1958 Act? The 1958 Act in certain phrases— Section 8—allows the Board of C.I.E. "to fix, demand, take and recover such charges as the Board thinks fit for any services provided by it". Secondly, subsection (3) provides that the Board "may attach to any service provided by it such terms and conditions as the Board thinks fit". Is it not because the Board have operated that and got away from the old-time public carrier that the Minister is now able to come in here and praise them for the "electrifying process" by which they have arrived at a condition in which not so much is required in the way of subsidy as it was their habit to require for many years before now?

It is very easy to talk of package deals and offering people, who might otherwise go into private transport, certain advantageous rates, but the old idea of the common carrier was that what he gave to one in respect of a certain classification of merchandise he gave to everybody. He had to take the traffic that was offered to him. Merchandise was clearly stated. There was no question of a company playing fast and loose with favoured customers. Everybody got equal service and the service was provided over the whole country.

The then Minister for Industry and Commerce spoke in terms of praise of himself. He said that the aim was to provide the country with a nationwide transport service operating by road and rail as the public required a service that would be obliged by law to carry without discrimination as between bus or train to all parts all goods for transportation at known terms and at a uniform fixed rate.

Am I right in saying that all that has gone and that C.I.E. are now busily engaged in cutting down services they think are uneconomic and are trying to make deals with people in a way not known and where there is no open competition and that many of these deals, as far as the public can get to know them, may be operating in a very discriminatory way as between individual traders? In any event, where is the compulsion on them? Could they be brought before the Railway Tribunal, as it was in the old days, or any other tribunal to have their obligations investigated or to have them bettered if they were proving to be discriminatory in their services?

Apart altogether from that side of it, because that has been legalised by the 1958 Act, the Minister compliments himself on that Act having been passed and that we are in the position where these package deals are being made, where traffic might be refused and traffic might be snatched. I should like to ask the Minister also with regard to C.I.E.—the date of the passage of that Act is the 16th July, 1958—can he say how many employees C.I.E. had on that date and how many employees they have now? Can he say further how many times have the charges of C.I.E. been raised, such of them as are known, since July, 1958? Can he say what revenue accrued to the company from the increases in passenger fares and freight rates that have been made since that time?

Can he say further how many commercially-owned lorries are on the roads at the moment? In 1956, when the same Road Traffic Bill was under consideration, at Column 709 of the debate of the 22nd February, 1956, these figures were given. The question had been raised about C.I.E.'s monopoly of vehicles for the carriage of goods mainly. These were given as the facts:—

In 1933, there were 8,400 commercial goods vehicles on the road and in 1954, there were 37,000.

The speaker then said:—

I have not got the figures for 1955, but if they follow the usual tendency, they go up by 4,000 a year.

The figures were then repeated:—

Commercial road vehicles increased in number from 8,400 in 1933 to 37,000 in 1954. C.I.E. not only had to compete with the 8,400, which were in existence in 1933, but with the additional 29,000 which have come on the road since then...

The comment was then made that one could not say that C.I.E. had anything like a monopoly of road transport under those conditions. Can the Minister say what number of commercial vehicles were on the roads in mid-July, 1958, and how many are on the roads now? I am asking for those figures because I want to find out how far people under these package deals and under this licence given to C.I.E. have been driven to put their own vehicles on the road for the carriage of their own goods, notwithstanding the discrimination that might be offered by C.I.E.

On a different topic, I might remind myself in passing that under Section 19 of the 1958 Act, which has the side-note "Termination of Train Services", full liberty is given to the Board to terminate any services of trains for passengers or merchandise or either of them. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to say how far that section has operated. Over what length of line, say, has the service of trains for passengers and merchandise been closed down?

The second sub-section of Section 19 is to the effect that the Board shall not terminate a service unless it is satisfied that its operation is uneconomic and that there is no prospect of its continued operation being economic within a reasonable period. Is there anybody other than the officials of the Board to decide when the operation of a service becomes uneconomic or when there is no prospect of its becoming economic inside a reasonable time? Do the Board operate that section themselves? Are they free from any investigation or inquisition by the Minister or any of his officials? I would take it from that that they are. That is why I should like to know over what length of line have services been terminated.

I understand that the Board's view varied from time to time, that at one time they regarded it almost as an obligation on them to close down a service if they were satisfied it was uneconomic. That is not my reading of what subsection (1) would involve. I understand it was the interpretation put on it by the Board at one time— that they could not take the old time view that, even though a service was uneconomic, they could continue to operate it because they might have the feeling that they were a public transport service and that they were not simply to go along ruthlessly cutting lines because they had become uneconomic to the slightest degree.

There is subsection (3) of Section 19 which forbids the Board to terminate a service or to close a railway station of the class referred to —the obligation is quite clearly stated —unless two months before doing so they publish in Iris Oifigiúil and in such newspapers circulating in the area affected by the proposal of the Board a notice of the Board's intention. The publication of the Board's intention is to allow people in the neighbourhood to make their protest, to see what could be done, and to see if they could promise further revenue to the Board through a particular station. There has been considerable doubt along some of the stations between Dublin and Bray regarding the retention of the line and the closing of certain stations. I have made an occasional search of Iris Oifigiúil for some months past and I know of no notice published. Therefore, I take it that as far as the Bray line is concerned these preliminary steps which should be taken have not been taken to put that section into operation. I should like to be reassured on that point.

The last report of C.I.E. that I have, shows that the number of their employees on the 31st March, 1959, was 22,000 and the salary and wages bill for the year amounted to £10,000,000 and some odd money. It stated that pay increases and better conditions granted during the year cost £40,740. I should like to get for comparison with that what was the number of employees, say, at July, 1958? What was the salary and wages bill covering that number of employees in the year ending on that date? One cannot get that from these Board reports, because they operate to March 31st each year, but I imagine the information is built up month by month, or quarter by quarter, and that the figures should be readily available.

In the Programme for Economic Expansion which has been often referred to recently—more often than it used to be—the matter of transport was dealt with on page 42 and reference was made to the Great Northern Railways Act, 1958, and the Transport Act of 1958. Under these Acts, C.I.E. became the sole public transport authority in the State with the exception of two small companies in Donegal. The Programme says they were charged with providing reasonable, efficient and economical transport services, the encouragement of national economic development and the maintenance of reasonable employment for their workers. These words, I imagine, were carefully chosen.

But has the term "reasonable", in the phraseology of C.I.E., any affiliation with the demands of the public, or does it mean such services as the Board think reasonable? To my mind they seem to have set themselves up as arbiters on every point of that idea of providing efficient and economical transport services for the public. The statutory term "economical" does not seem to enter their heads.

The Programme also says "the Act provides"—and then sets out the ameliorative provisions in the two Acts, dealing with the writing down of capital to a certain amount of money, the writing off of capital advances, the payment of compensation for possible redundancy amongst staff, and then there is a phrase which the programme says has been brought into operation by the 1958 Act:

"The removal of the common carrier and other statutory obligations restricting the commercial adaptability of C.I.E."

The common carrier obligation apparently placed a restriction on the commercial adaptability of C.I.E.

A question put very often recently is: "What is the aim of C.I.E."? As far as I take it from the Minister's laudatory phrases today, he accepts all C.I.E. have done recently in regard to the drastic pruning of services, the restriction of waste, the cutting out of inefficiency. But there is nothing in the Minister's phrases here to say that it was the aim of C.I.E. to provide an efficient service throughout the whole of the country. I want that matter elucidated and I accordingly ask the Minister to give the figures as to what extra number of merchandise lorries under private control are now operating in the country and if we must look forward to C.I.E. as a body no longer to be maintained on subventions from the State for providing little or no service adequate to the needs of so many areas throughout the country.

Is it contemplated that what was thought would be a bad development is now to be regarded as something good and that we are to get back to the stage when we shall have a partial service, running a few main lines such as that from Galway to Dublin and from Dublin to the North but with minor lines cut out or restricted? Surely that must be the objective. In the Programme referred to, the objective, which was viewed with jubilation at the time was aimed at restricting the commercial adaptability of C.I.E. I take it that commercial adaptability was the aim.

Irish Shipping is passed over by the Minister with the phrase: "Riding the storm reasonably well." Surely it is possible at this stage to give a complete picture of Irish Shipping's operations—what capital was provided by the State or from the resources of Irish Shipping themselves, how far their operations pay for the expenses of those operations, and what is left over to meet interest, depreciation and interest on whatever capital is outstanding? Surely, in the case of Irish Shipping, there have been many good years when freight rates ran high; surely they must have been able to balance those years against their slump years. The question of harbours requires very little in the way of comment.

Aviation, in the Minister's speech, came under several different heads. There was a general head, there was Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport, Shannon Sales and Catering Services, Shannon Free Airport Development— which deserves comment by itself— Cork Airport, Aer Lingus, Aerlinte Capital Requirements and Meteorological Services. When Aerlinte was first heard of in this House we were told the estimate for its first year of operation was that the organisation would lose £900,000. The then Minister for Industry and Commerce took it as something in the nature of praise for himself that it just lost about that sum in that year. According to the Minister's statement tonight that figure has been somewhat reduced. How I do not know.

We were told at that time that a feature of the operations of Aerlinte would be that they would break even and the then Minister said the prospects were bright for the company breaking even. It seems that prospect has now been very distinctly falsified: the £900,000 is not as bad—by £200,000—as it had been anticipated at one time, but the second year of operations has gone very badly. I would refer to page 27 of the Minister's opening speech:

"In the year ending 31st March, 1959, the excess of expenditure over revenue was approximately £790,000. Certified figures for the year ended 31st March, 1960, are not available, but the loss on that year's operations is estimated at £525,000."

That is a serious setback from what we were previously told. We were told that the first year, in which there was a loss of £900,000, was the only year that there was likely to be a loss and that we would about break even in the second year. The Minister now says:

The estimate of losses originally made for the two years fell short of these combined figures by ten per cent., not an excessive figure.

There was a loss envisaged for the second year too.

The Minister says here that "the loss on that year's operations is estimated at £525,000."

It was said on the original Estimate that it was not possible to break even the second year.

The Estimate was very optimistic for the second year. I remember speaking on it and I said that figures, could be given for incidental advantages with regard to the tourist trade and all like that, and I was sharply admonished by the Minister's predecessor that he was not thinking of incidental advantages at all, and that it was possible it would break even in the second year. The records will show it; anyway we have the reality now—£790,000 in the first year and £525,000 in the second year. That, of course, is the most serious loss but I think I am right in saying that nowhere in the whole of this aviation matter have we got a really balanced account.

It can be said that the operating expenses of Aer Lingus show a surplus but they have to make provision for depreciation and interest, and that in regard to the airports, Dublin and Shannon, while Shannon from the point of view of operations gets closer to paying its way than does Dublin, I think I am right in taking it, as I read hurriedly through the Minister's memorandum, that no airport and no part of anything in connection with aviation is paying its way when everything is brought into account. The operating expenses may be nearly breaking even. The account between expenses and the operating side of aviation may be nearly even in regard to certain matters, but nowhere in these accounts that I have been able to see has there been provision made for a charge against the various items of State capital and its repayment.

Surely it is time we had this matter clearly placed before the public to be able to see what is the true cost of the many aviation services we have, and in that connection I presume the Minister will add in all the heavy expenses carried on his Departmental Vote under the heading of administration and such things as civil aviation, airport constructional matters, aviation operations, aviation communications, Shannon Airport management, together with the whole cost of the meteorological items. These surely should all be put into one account and split up, and it is only in the Department that they can be properly split up as between, say, the services for the airports and the two different air services, Aer Lingus and Aerlinte.

We are no longer at the stage when these things can be regarded as developmental. There is a sufficient period for one to have an adequate experience of trends and all the rest, and one must be able to estimate from trends, with all of these fast jet aircraft entering into the calculations, and not merely should there be a figure given of what has passed since Aer Lingus was established, and more lately Aerlinte, but there should be some forecast as to how these things will work out for the future. I still think I was justified some months ago in saying that the Minister's Department was one of "jets and other debts," the jets being the main debts that he has to stand over or attempt to hide.

The matter of electricity gets four pages in the Minister's statement. In fact, when I take the introductory part out, I think I am correct in saying that two-thirds of his lengthy memorandum deals with air services and things connected with them. With regard to electricity, the Minister has told us about all the new stations that are being built and are coming into operation but, the Grey Book, "Economic Development " dealing with electricity, at Chapter 20, was very critical of the Government's activity about that time.

Paragraph 4 of that Chapter runs:

In recent years the provision of generating capacity has run ahead of the country's requirements, and the E.S.B. has surplus capacity, over and above a reasonable reserve for contingencies, which would enable it to supply current of 400-500 million units a year in excess of the present demand of about 1,775 million units. This alone would suffice for almost four years of growth of demand at last year's rate. The period of excess capacity will be prolonged by the completion of new generating stations now under construction.

This very critical comment follows:

The heavy excess investment in plant adds to fixed charges and represents a deadweight burden on the E.S.B.

Paragraph 5 continues more or less on the same lines:

Heavy investment by the E.S.B. without a commensurate rise in revenue has meant a steep rise in the proportion of capital charges (interest, sinking fund and depreciation) to revenue. In 1951-52 capital charges represented 30 per cent. of revenue and likewise 30 per cent. of working expenses; they now represent about 50 per cent. in each case, or over £6 million a year, and will continue to rise.

That paragraph should surely be taken as the basis of a better statement which the Minister should give in respect of electricity and of the preparations there are for extra generating capacity.

Was that phrase right or wrong? Was there a heavy excess investment in plant? Has that been caught up with? Why has demand grown to such an extent? If the Minister is disposed to answer that question would he pay attention to one matter? If one looks at the E.S.B. accounts over the last four or five years one point will be apparent. I take that as the period in which the Minister for Industry and Commerce began to interfere actively in the plans that the Board had for its ordinary development. There was a time when the Board was allowed to operate on its own. The members of the Board were regarded as the people who were experts in this whole matter. They had all the information at their disposal and they had experience of other companies, and a comparison with those led them to cut down in enthusiasm for the provision of generating capacity, as that was urged on them from time to time by various Ministers.

There came a point when the Minister's predecessor in the Department of Industry and Commerce definitely interfered with the Board, when they were not merely exhorted but coerced by a Minister into making bigger provision for generating capacity than they themselves thought was proper. That was the period in which there was the excess investment which brought about this comment in the Grey Book.

The Minister will find that, of course, there is an effort made to cloak this thing a little bit by having various types of plant brought in year by year and the account that the Electricity Supply Board furnishes showing what proportion of units produced came from the various stations is rather carefully divided up but it has attracted attention that if one takes the potential of quite a number of these stations and takes then what is drawn by way of production of units from the various stations in any year, one will find that a very small proportion of the potential of the station is realised. One can immediately understand the difference that in a wet year there will be greater use of hydro-electrical development, as it is the cheaper form of production, whereas in a dry year, when the Shannon lakes may not have sufficient water stored, there would be a turnover to turf which, of course, should become more abundant in a dry period. But, there always has been for years a great distinction between the potential of many of these stations and the actuality and the belief is growing that this is a device, probably forced upon the E.S.B., in order to cloak the excess investment in generating capacity and generating plant by showing some draw from each of them whereas, in fact, the situation properly is that if the potentiality of a number of these stations had been realised, as it might have been realised, there definitely would be disclosed a very heavy excess investment in plant.

The Minister's memorandum referred to the use that may be made in the future of milled peat for the purpose of generating electricity. I understand that there has been some disquiet caused amongst engineers in recent months with regard to milled peat. In fact, I should like to see statistics of what was the declared potential development of electricity from milled peat and what is the highest that has ever been realised in actual operation.

I understand, further, that at meetings recently there was certain disquiet also aroused as between Bord na Móna engineers and Electricity Supply Board engineers over the fact that in a dry year turf may be as bad as it is in a wet year, arising, of course, from different circumstances. I have been given to understand that from the point of view of boiler capacity and boiler usage over-dry peat presents as bad a problem, although not the same type of problem, as heavily wet turf does.

The Grey Book on Economic Development goes on, in paragraph 6 of Chapter 20, to speak of rural electrification. To its previous comments about the dead weight burden on the E.S.B. and how the heavy investment has changed the proportion of capital charges to revenue it attaches in connection with rural electrification this comment:

Apart from the over-capitalisation resulting from the provision of excess generating plant, a serious burden is also being imposed by the loss incurred on rural electrification.

This amounted to £552,000 for 1957-58 which profit on other operations reduced to a loss of £180,000. The capital cost to date—

This is, of course, a year or two old now—

averages over £100 per rural consumer without including any element for generating cost. Now that only the more remote and less populous areas remain to be connected, rural electrification will become more and more uneconomic according as it progresses; it is estimated that the annual loss on rural electrification will be up to £1¼ million by 1963, assuming completion of the scheme by that time. To ease the burden on the E.S.B. it has been decided to recoup by Exchequer subsidy 50 per cent. of the capital charges arising from the completion of the scheme.

Paragraph 7 says:

Subsidisation will not, of course, solve the problem. It will merely transfer part of the loss from the electricity consumer to the taxpayer, i.e., from Peter to Paul. The case might be made that the general consumer of electricity is as good a mark as the taxpayer; indeed, viewed as a vehicle of taxation, the electricity bill is as effective, convenient and equitable as any other. The primary consideration is that if more of our national resources are to be applied to productive development, uneconomic investment must be curbed. The investment of £23,000,000 in rural electrification since 1946-47, resulting in the supply of electric power to 75 per cent. of rural areas, represents a generous contribution from the nation's resources towards providing a desirable amenity as well as a means of increasing agricultural production. In fact, on most farms, the use of electricity is virtually confined to domestic purposes; it contributes more to comfort than to output. No material increase in agricultural production can be expected from the extension of supply to the remoter areas. These factors suggest that the rate at which further areas are connected should be adjusted so as to keep pace with an improvement in the Board's general finances, thus moderating the losses failing on the general electricity consumer and the taxpayer.

Since that was written, of course, the Electricity Supply Board ran into the red for the first time in their history, followed by a second period in which they ran into the red, possibly due to this excess investment in plant.

In any event, there was a warning given by the authors of this publication that, seeing that there had been a very generous contribution made to the amenities of rural life, any further provision should be made only if there was an improvement in the Board's general finances so that the losses falling on the general electricity consumer and the taxpayer could be moderated. It is rather peculiar that an effort was made, if anything, to develop rural areas at a slightly speedier rate at a time when the Electricity Supply Board had got into the red for the first couple of times in their history.

The last report that I saw from the Electricity Supply Board was not too optimistic. With regard to the year ended 31st March last, I have not seen the report for that year but they did not hold out any hope that they would be out of the red and in the black in the year ended 31st March, 1959.

It cannot be denied that what this pamphlet said was true with regard to rural electrification; it was an amenity; it contributed to comfort and not to output. It is strange that that comment should still have to be made. When the original Siemens Schuckert project came before this country they had a chapter about rural electrification. They did not recommend at that stage any development of the rural areas because at that time the propaganda that developed about that particular project was that, so to speak, everything was being grabbed in, pulled in, to try to get an effective demand for electricity which would leave what was supposed to be the terrible losses likely to be incurred on the electricity project less and less and it would have been regarded as a weakening in those days to mention rural electrification because, of course, the unit price was not going to be the normal price for public lighting, the cities and towns, or any development that was on. The Siemens Schuckert observation was to the effect that Ireland was about 25 years at that date behind even comparable countries like Denmark, Switzerland and some of the smaller Scandinavian areas in the provision of electrification to the rural areas.

First of all, a warning was given by the projectors of the scheme themselves and also by the experts who examined it that it would be wasteful use of electricity to have it provided for rural areas if it was only to be used as an amenity—for light or heat —and the exhortation was given that every effort should be made to see that electricity in rural Ireland would be applied to something to do with production on the farm or to do something in the way of amenity better than the provision, say, of light. I notice that at the end of the Minister's memorandum there is talk of having the farms to some extent mechanised and, therefore, to some degree utilising electricity.

Comment is also made in regard to water supplies. For many years it was the ambition of certain people who were members of the Electricity Supply Board not only to have the rural areas developed but to have the main use of electricity, as far as propaganda could achieve that, for the provision of water. I know that records were kept by some of the Board's observers of the amount of time wasted in the ordinary country house in going to—whichever was nearer—the well or the pump to fetch water and cart it back to the house. The reasonable expectation in this country with its damp climate was that it was hardly possible to delve down in any part of the country to any great depth without discovering water and with the advent of electricity it was expected to develop at least the provision of something more than a comfort amenity, something that would reduce the drudgery of the farmhouse, the drudgery imposed on the women on the farms, perhaps by the provision of water, either for washing purposes of various kinds or for drinking and sanitation purposes. Here we are in 1960 coming to the end of this development and it is regarded as a hope that there may be some development in connection with the provision of water supplies through the better availability of electricity in the country areas.

Rural electrification has cost this country a great deal of money—rather it has cost the general taxpayer and the Electricity Supply Board a great deal of money. I do not think that is grudged by anybody; certainly it would not be grudged if there were greater development in rural areas and if something were done to make life more attractive there and to get rid of a lot of drudgery, as could be done by the provision of electricity. But we are coming to the end of this stage and apparently we have not yet got to the point where there is any encouragement given to the people to use electricity in the proper way.

The White Paper on Economic Expansion spoke of electricity at paragraph 115 and said:

The policy of the Government is to ensure

(i) that energy supplies are adequate to meet industrial, commercial and private domestic needs, actual and potential;

(ii) that these requirements are provided from native resources to the maximum possible extent.

In paragraph 117 there is reference to rural electrification and the numbers of consumers who had been supplied at the 31st March, 1958.

I should just like to make one comment on that—that, first of all while there was a time when there was a great deal more electricity supplied than there was immediate demand for, when the demand grew so as to equate the supply and went beyond the supply, it was not until the 1939 war had started that there was any effort made by the Government of the time to provide extra generation plant and that only came incidentally to the provision of the Poulaphouca scheme which was mainly a scheme to provide a better supply of drinking water for the city of Dublin. It had an incidental effect upon the provision, of electricity.

We then went through the war period, of course, not being able to get the machinery required to have any better development of our resources than we already had and it was not until about 1946 or 1947 that there was any thought of developing electricity with the special aim of providing for the rural areas. That was the extent of the enterprise of the war in regard to something that had been started and provided against the antagonism of Fianna Fáil in those early years.

I have already spoken of Bord na Móna and the Turf Development Act but I should like to find out what are the prospects of this institution. They showed a loss of £904,000 for the year ended 31st March, 1959, and the best they could promise in those days was:

The Board was confident that given average weather conditions in the future its finances would, within a reasonable period, be restored to the healthy position they occupied before the disaster of 1958.

The comment made that year, that they had gone back in the disastrous summer period, did not surprise anybody and was in no way a reflection on the Board, but the loss of £904,000 certainly did surprise people and their anxiety was not lessened but was rather increased by the comment that, given average weather conditions in the future its finances would, within a reasonable period, be restored to the position they occupied before 1958.

What position have we reached with regard to Bord na Móna? Again, the capital allowances made to the Board were very heavy and I think it is surely possible at this time to say how the Board stands. Apparently, they are drawing back from time to time, and have been allowed to draw back, certain moneys due by them for repayment. That is quite a healthy development and quite good but surely there must be an account which can be produced to show the operations of the Board retrospectively for whatever number of years they are in being?

The number of employees, as shown in the 1959 Report, was 5,779 at peak. They say it is considerably fewer than in the previous year owing to restricted production and unfavourable drying conditions. Of course it was understandable that the number of employed should have gone down. For the year 1958 they show that at peak there were 6,720 employed by the Board so that the number had slumped by over 1,000 in the bad year. I wonder to what point has the peak employment recovered and, apart altogether from peak employment—which is not a very satisfactory figure—could the Minister say what is the average employment over, say, a period of four or five years? One knows, of course, that there is what is called the peak harvesting season, but I understood certain developments had occurred which meant that the harvesting period had been lengthened and I thought in that way employment would have been better spread and that something approaching the peak figure might have been sustained during a greater number of months than had been the case previously.

However, no matter what the employment may be, it is quite clear that it is not up to the hopes expressed in this House. The present Minister, speaking down the country on the 6th of this month, said: "At no time did Fianna Fáil promise to employ any specific number of people. Fianna Fáil had devised an extensive programme of economic development the success of which depended on the optimistic ambitions of the people themselves and their belief in the future." There were, of course, very definite promises and statements made with regard to the numbers to be employed. I was driven to my library to look up some of these old things and there is just a passing reference here to their old plan which was going to provide 86,041 jobs. That is a very specific number, given in the original plan of 1932.

He had it down to the very last figure on that occasion and the number he gave was 86,041; that was a most specific figure. But at a later stage we had a piece of legislation which was called the Turf Use and Development Bill and the present Taoiseach unburdened himself on this when he said that some people were becoming alarmed at tales that the domestic users of turf would be required to use two tons of turf for every cwt. of coal. He said that he had no hope that we would be able to reach that stage for a number of years to come but that if we did succeed in doing that we would abolish unemployment in this country altogether. He added that he thought there would be very few people who would not be prepared to contemplate such a state of affairs if it would lead to the abolition of unemployment. A Deputy asked him why did he not do it and the Taoiseach replied that he hoped to do it in years to come but that it would take considerable time and organisation.

The immediate effort was quite good but people were wondering whether 16 shillings for cutting and saving a ton of turf was good pay or not. In a debate on the 8th May, 1936, in Column 2554 the Taoiseach is reported as having said:

It is my ambition to see employed in the production and processing of turf a much larger number of people than is employed in any other industry in this country, except agriculture. I believe we can do it. I believe we can get from 40,000 to 50,000 people in employment on turf. It is going to take a long time to do it, but we can do it and we are starting now.

At a later stage when the present Taoiseach was Minister for Industry and Commerce he referred to the matter again in a Dáil debate of 15th May, 1936, as reported in Column 568. Deputy Dillon said that he would oppose the Money Resolution and the present Taoiseach again referred to the possibility of putting between 40,000 and 50,000 people into employment in the turf industry. Deputy Dillon called this "the wildest and most irresponsible misrepresentation".

Deputy Galvin, at a by-election caused by the death of the former Deputy McGrath, spoke of the full employment proposals which had been recently announced by the Fianna Fáil Party and promised an increase over five years of 100,000 in the number of new jobs. If that is not specific enough, I have quite a number of other quotations to give to the Minister but I would prefer to keep them for another occasion.

I have a pile of them six feet high. The man got tired cutting them out.

A Deputy

You needed them.

You needed them to cheat the people.

I have given some quotations with regard to specific numbers but I do not think that the matter should be left there. In May, 1946, the present Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, went to Waterford and told a Waterford gathering:

At last our long night is ending and this is the start of a brighter day. I am proud to have the privilege of bringing that message to Waterford on the anniversary of the Easter day on which that began. We have travelled far since then and there is no power on earth to stop us now.

We know how far we have travelled since then. We now have 5,000 people fewer in industrial employment than we had in 1955 and 50,000 or 60,000 people have been driven out of agricultural employment.

If the Minister would give me the information for which I was looking with regard to these various accounts, I would be very thankful to him. With a new Department being developed and the Minister being given charge of it, he should encourage the people by the truth but he will not do so if he is going to develop in his present Department some of those moods which he has revealed to-day, when he said:

If ever we needed an example of how desperately this country requires modern, searching, unsentimental 20th century dynamic thinking and action through the application of modern fast moving techniques, C.I.E. can be that supreme example.

He went on to say:

The sole factor in determining the future pattern of public transport is that of providing the most modern economic and convenient form of transport.

I should like the Minister to apply those moods to all the other areas of influence which come within his ambit excepting only C.I.E. When the public were voting money under the 1958 Act they were not thinking of having their transport services reduced to a minimum which apparently it is C.I.E.'s objective to achieve.

We have before us something like £3,500,000 for the Minister to play with. That is quite a sizeable sum. As regards C.I.E. there has been some improvement but there is still room for more improvement. I should like to call the Minister's attention to the danger of over-dieselisation. It has been a good thing for C.I.E. but there is a danger that we might discover, in a time of crisis, that we have put all our eggs in the one basket. One can see throughout the country numbers of steam engines cluttering up the side lines and deteriorating into scrap. If I might use an American phrase, would the Minister consider putting some of these into moth balls so that in the event of an emergency we might have something to fall back on?

I should like to express my own appreciation and that of the public of some of the services provided by C.I.E., in particular on the main line between Galway and Dublin. I am referring to the line via Portarlington. It is a very good service but, while it is a good service, we also have the line via Mullingar and the speed at which the trains run on that line is about the same as it was forty years ago. There could be no contradiction of that. It evokes comments from visitors and tourists and is a matter that calls for improvement.

I wish also to draw the Minister's attention to the need to see that justice is done to the C.I.E. salaried staff pensioners. They are entitled to the same treatment as other pensioners who have received increases lately. They have to live and the Minister must admit the cost of living has gone up in spite of the promises made by his Government. It would be helpful if the Minister would use his good offices with C.I.E. to have a special rate for school-going children. Where there is a number of children in the household the weekly cost makes a great inroad into the family budget and a reduced rate would be welcomed by parents.

C.I.E. provide a ferry boat service to the Aran Islands. It is subsidised like the services in the rest of the country but quite recently I have been informed that a number of cattle were allowed to remain on the islands of Inishmaan and Inisheer. That should not have occurred because these islanders have not a lot to depend on and to miss, as they did, the May fair was a great blow to them. The Minister should also take an interest in the improvement of the pier at Kilronan and thereby help to provide a better time-table. There is also need for the provision of slipways. This may be a matter for the Board of Works, but since there is a danger of currachs being dashed to pieces at times on the rough sea coasts between these islands, the Minister should see that these facilities, which may be instrumental in saving life, are provided.

I may step on the Minister's toe when I refer to the Galway Harbour scheme. This scheme has been made a plaything for the last ten years not alone by this Minister but by other Ministers and other Governments. However, the joke has gone a little too far. Quite recently the Minister for the Gaeltacht made a public announcement that a new scheme has been approved. We have heard the Minister saying that he has not yet approved of a scheme. Whom are we to believe, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, who is a Deputy for that area, or the Minister for Transport and Power? My information is that the Minister for Transport and Power has done his utmost to quash the whole scheme but, due to the fact that pressure has been brought to bear on him by the different bodies, he is staying his hand in that regard. I am further informed that it is the Minister's intention to cut by one-third the grant for the scheme and the Minister is waiting for the local elections to be over before he makes that announcement.

Would it not be better to make it before the elections?

No. It would be difficult enough in our constituency without his putting the last nail in their coffin. The Minister can take it from me that all Parties will be up in arms against him if he takes such a step. To say the least of it, there is something sinister about the whole thing.

There is nothing sinister at all.

Does the Minister stand over the announcement of the Minister for the Gaeltacht?

If I could get agreement with the Galway Harbour Commissioners there would be a very fine improvement scheme for Galway.

Can I take it it will not be cut by one-third? From what I can gather from the Minister's attitude he is about to lock the door on the Galway Harbour scheme and throw away the key. That is the way I see the Minister's conduct since he went into office.

Deputies may ask what interest have I, as a western Deputy, in a port on the East coast but coming from a major tourist centre I think it is about time to examine the position in relation to the pier at Dun Laoghaire. I raise that question both from the tourist point of view and from the point of view of returning emigrants. We have many returning emigrants and they should not be treated as we have seen such people being treated at Dun Laoghaire in the past few weeks. We have heard the Minister speak on this question in the past and I hope that when the peak period comes he will show sufficient interest to avoid a recurrence of this situation.

Expenditure to date on the provision of an airport at Cork is £625,000. Now that this facility has been provided at Cork, I should like to stress the claim of Galway. We have been promised technical assistance by the Minister. While we are grateful for technical assistance, we think something more should be done. We do not want the vast expenditure that has been incurred on other projects. We have the airfield. It is merely a question of developing it. It is the property of Galway Corporation.

We look forward to the Minister extending something more than just technical assistance. Now that Limerick, Cork and Dublin have been developed, I think it is our turn. We anticipate that the Minister will extend his activities to Galway. It is only right that he should because we are a major tourist centre. We have two seasons; we have the peak tourist season and we have the anglers in the off-season. The point I should like to stress is the fact that Oranmore is a fog-free area and, from that point of view, its development would be an advantageous proposition in the event of Shannon being fog-bound.

I should like the Minister to tell us, when he is replying, whether he intends to cut the grant for Galway Harbour. I should also like him to reply to the other points I raised.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to his new Ministerial post. He is the one member of the Cabinet who never wastes any time in giving help when he sees a sound project.

With regard to C.I.E., I think many of the services provided could be, and should be, run on better lines. There are districts, thickly populated areas, which so far have not been served by C.I.E. at all. When one goes to C.I.E. and asks them to investigate the possibility of diverting a bus service, or providing a new service, to cater for residents in a particular area, one is told that the road is not fit to carry a public transport service. I have in mind the area from Clifden to Cleggan, a very thickly populated area. Children in the area attend schools in Clifden and they need transport to convey them to and from school. There are three C.I.E. buses stationed in the town of Clifden. One of them could easily go out in the morning and return to Galway and, on the return journey that evening, the bus could call to Cleggan, approximately seven miles, catering for both the school children and the residents in the area, plus the people landing at Cleggan Pier from the Island of Boffin.

I hope the Minister will get the responsible officers to consult as soon as possible on the question of providing a proper pension scheme for C.I.E. workers. Such a scheme is long overdue. I understand the men are prepared to contribute a certain figure. It is only right and fitting that in this year, 1960, a proper pension scheme should be drawn up for them.

Reference has been made to livestock being left on the islands at Aran. That may be so, but there is probably an explanation. The Aran ferry boat looks all right, but she is not the right type of boat for that service at all. In the first instance, she is built too high and it is next to impossible either to load or unload her at both Inishmaan and Inisheer in stormy weather or when there is a heavy sea running. I have travelled on that boat several times. I am fairly used to the sea and I understand the position. When she goes out of service, if she ever does, I hope a more suitable ferry boat will be provided.

Investigations have been going on between the Office of Public Works and the Office of the Minister for the Gaeltacht—I dare say the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power will enter into the picture now—in connection with the pier at Kilronan. It is high time the pier was lengthened on the east side. The approximate width of the pier at its head is roughly the length of the Aran ferry boat. The skipper, having called to the other two islands, has only about an hour, or two, at Kilronan before he takes to the sea again. If he does not take her out with the tide she is left grounded. An extension of 30 or 40 yards on the east side would solve the problem.

It is very disheartening for tourists, particularly on those days when the boat calls to the other two islands, to find that they have only an hour or two when they reach Kilronan for sightseeing purposes. Everybody knows that transport on the island is by pony and trap or pony and sidecar. The main attraction is, of course, the Dun Aengus cliffs and the Seven Churches. In the time available under present circumstances it is quite impossible for tourists to visit the Cliffs or Churches. A longer period would afford them a better opportunity. At the moment they are compelled to turn back in disappointment.

With regard to bus services, the emphasis where mystery tours are concerned is mainly in and around city areas like Dublin. There is a great deal of scope for such tours in the West generally and it is high time that someone examined that aspect of the bus services. From Galway city you have Salthill, a very popular bathing place, Barna, Forrba and Spiddal, which is just 12 miles away. If C.I.E. want to make their services pay an ideal way of gaining revenue would be to put extra buses on this route, at least during the summer months, and provide a real service between Galway and Spiddal. The Minister may tell me there are three services on that road at present. I admit that is true, but the hours of these services do not suit people who wish to spend an afternoon at the seaside and then return home. The last bus back to Galway is, I think, around 3.15 p.m. to give a connection with the 3.30 p.m. train. That is too early because people generally like to have their lunch first and go to the seaside afterwards.

I hope the Minister will tell us what is the position in regard to the Galway docks. I know it has been a source of worry to him but the people of Galway are also worried about what is going to happen. I think it time some investigation were made and engineering advice given in regard to our airfield. If that were done some air company would probably come to the West. I feel it would be a most direct route for tourists coming from England or elsewhere and would result in much greater tourist traffic to the city.

I am not interested in the congratulations bestowed on C.I.E. for the improvements they have made nor am I interested in whether or not Fianna Fáil kept the promises they made. That is not my worry at the moment. However, rumours are prevalent about the West Clare Railway, and that railway is something I have followed with interest over the years. I am told that C.I.E. are very interested in it at the moment, but I think, somehow or other, not in the right direction. It is for that reason I speak tonight.

Years ago I was one of those who helped to hold that railway when it was much worse than it is now, when there was only an old steam engine on it and when it was costing much more to run than at present. Somehow or other we were successful in holding it at that time. As a matter of fact, we can say that the West Clare Railway was the first in Ireland on which a diesel engine was tried. If that railway is taken away from Clare, we might as well be out in Aran because it will cripple the whole of the county. There is no good in the Minister telling me that he will give the people of Clare a better and cheaper service than they have at present with the railway. I know that in places where the railways have been closed the people are not satisfied at all and I have heard complaints in this House. I should not like it if the only thing we could say about the Minister after his new appointment was that he had closed the West Clare Railway.

I see in the Estimates that a grant of £1,175,000 was given to C.I.E. in respect of the years 1959-60 and 1960-61. That is the taxpayers' money and there are taxpayers in county Clare as well as anywhere else. Surely the Minister does not expect the taxpayers of Clare to contribute to the closing of the West Clare Railway, if that is what is in mind? Perhaps I am wrong, but I am just giving a warning. I believe this railway should not be closed and I consider, rightly or wrongly, that the railways are the main arteries of every country. In the bad old days when trains could not be run on the main lines, the extraordinary thing was that the West Clare Railyway kept going. Even today it is doing its fair share in feeding the main line from Limerick with traffic.

I believe we are entitled in county Clare to our share of that £1,175,000 as well as the other counties where it is being spent. I would ask the Minister to bear in mind what I say and, if he can at all, to make sure that this line will not be closed. If it is closed he will have the people in Clare against him, no matter what Government are in power.

I was very impressed by the Minister's detailed statement dealing with the various aspects of transport here, shipping, aviation, and so on. I believe the Minister will be energetic in his new job and I have no doubt but that he will be successful. It is the first time he has introduced this Estimate and I personally wish him well in his work.

The Minister has more or less sounded the death knell of the canals. I am not so much concerned about the canals as I am about the workers on them. I am talking of my own constituency where there are many lock-keepers and others who gave years of service to the Canal Company and later to C.I.E. I should like to see those workers, when displaced or rendered redundant, get a fair crack of the whip. Their wages have been very small over the years and while their work may not have been particularly difficult, they did have to stay at their posts sometimes for 24 hours a day. I would ask the Minister to make representations to C.I.E. to ensure that they are treated justly.

While I know that C.I.E. are getting it very hard—that they have been forced to come to us time and again for help—I feel that some small gesture should be made by the Company to their pensioners who at the moment are endeavouring to exist on miserable pittances. Any gesture would be appreciated and I hope this matter will be examined, particularly in relation to retired workers who have given over 40 years' service and who are now trying to eke out their final years on very small incomes. Even though C.I.E. are working on meagre funds, I feel their workers, and particularly their retired workers, should be looked after. With this in view, I am suggesting that a more advanced pension scheme should be introduced by C.I.E. even if it meant that workers have to pay higher contributions.

I know of cases of men who retired from the services of the company at a weekly wage of £12 a week, who are now getting as low as 30/- a week pension. Those men may get anything up to £2 5s. a week in social benefits, but their aggregate incomes are still very small, frequently sufficient only for the bare necessities, and consequently they have to rely on their families to keep themselves and their wives in even frugal comfort.

It will be said, of course, as I have already pointed out, that C.I.E. must tread very warily because of their financial position. While on that point I want to congratulate the present Board and the Chairman who are trying to do their best to get the Company out of its difficulties without having to approach us for the money.

Another point I want to make is in relation to the C.I.E. boat on the Shannon. I must say it is very much appreciated and availed of during the summer months. From the tourist point of view I think it would be a great asset if we had similar pleasure boats to take tourists on trips round the south and west coasts. I would suggest that these boats should make a series of weekly cruises. I feel sure such cruises would be a tourist draw. Perhaps Bord Fáilte could assist in this. It may be argued that the expenses would be prohibitive, but I consider the suggestion worthy of examination by the Minister.

I was very happy to hear the Minister's very favourable report on our shipping services. It was very heartening to hear that Irish Shipping has achieved some of the things we had always hoped for—that we have at last a shipping service that can compare very favourably with that of other countries in a competitive market. It is a wonderful advance in a few years. I welcome also the Minister's statement about our harbours. Indeed he is to be congratulated on the work he did during the period he was associated with the Department of Lands and Fisheries. He took a very active interest particularly in the reconstruction of harbours.

What harbours did he reconstruct?

He could not have a magic wand. He did bring over here an expert on harbours from Sweden and he got a report on how best our fishing harbours could be reconstructed. I appreciate very much the efforts he made to improve our harbours. I hope that his jurisdiction still extends over the harbour at Skerries. Only the other evening I noticed there were up to 20 fishing boats cluttered on top of one another there. I know the Minister for Lands and Fisheries has the matter under consideration but I feel the Minister for Transport and Power should still take an interest in an aspect of our economy which he started to improve.

I want to refer to the Hill of Howth tram. I know it is not entirely due to C.I.E. but to Dublin Corporation that there is now no service there because there is not a proper road over which to take a bus. I would ask the Minister to investigate the possibility of having a single deck bus specially constructed for hill climbing. Part of the road from Stella Maris to Bailey Post Office is rather dangerous and C.I.E. have decided not to use it.

I know there are two transport services going to the Hill and I must again compliment the road transport manager who is doing his job as best he can. I agree he is up against many difficulties but I wonder if a bus were specially constructed could it be put into use on that road to take school children into school, and be used by business people on their way to work in Dublin every morning? I have been agitating to have that road widened for the past ten years. I know C.I.E. have nothing to do with it but, nevertheless, the people living there are not now enjoying the same service that they had when the trams were in operation. I readily admit that the tram lines and overhead wires were just about worn out, that they were too dangerous to carry on with, and too expensive to replace, but nevertheless a number of my constituents have been deprived of the services they enjoyed heretofore.

Many hard things have been said about Aer Lingus, Aerlinte, Collinstown and Shannon. I would like to point out that when our aviation services were first established by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, now the Taoiseach, they were decried, but I am very happy to say that they are now paying their way. They are an advantage to the country and it must be remembered that we have to try at least to keep in step with other civilised countries. There is no use in saying that the country could not afford this, that, or the other. Today we are in the happy position that not alone is Aer Lingus doing well but the Minister can now report that the number of passengers carried last year had increased, and the amount of cargo traffic carried by Aer Lingus and Aerlinte had increased by at least 20 per cent. That is a very healthy sign and we are all very happy to hear that that side of industry is doing well. I am sure the services will reach even greater heights. The increasing traffic has proved that the Taoiseach was wise in going into that field, and later extending our aviation services both at Shannon and Collinstown. I feel that in years to come, as these services are improved, more and more people will use them and I can confidently predict a bright future for aviation in this country. Our services may have to meet an amount of competition from other companies but they are doing remarkably well. I welcome the bright note in the Minister's report dealing with aviation services generally.

I am sure that you will agree with me, Sir, that it would be a pity if we did not have the West Clare Railway, and I am quite sure that it would be out of order to have Deputy Bill Murphy regale us with the song that made it famous. However, I think it is a good thing that there should be a certain amount of sentiment about small railway lines which gave great service in the past but which may not in modern times be able to compete with other forms of transport. These small lines have a certain value and possibly with an overhaul of rolling stock and a new idea in fares, that is really an old idea, they could compete. The old idea I refer to, and it was one by which they were able to make money, was that they were not tied to fixed rates.

I have had experience of another famous railway, the Waterford and Tramore Railway, which always paid a dividend until it was taken over by the Great Southern and Western Railway, which was later swallowed by C.I.E. It was made pay by reducing fares in summer time. They reduced fares so much that it was not worth while to stay in Waterford on a Summer's evening when it was so cheap to travel to Tramore. Thousands of people went out there every evening but now we have the modern idea that there must be a fixed rate and that does not happen.

About 1937 there was fierce competition between private bus services operating to Tramore and the Waterford and Tramore Railway. By then, of course, it was a part of C.I.E. but either C.I.E. or the Waterford and Tramore Railway woke up, introduced a sixpenny train fare to Tramore, and completely defeated competition from the buses. I think the Minister should ask the officials in C.I.E. to produce the balance sheet of that year for the Waterford and Tramore Railway because I am sure it made a profit, or at least paid its way. It was much better to see 2,000 paying sixpenny fares than 34 paying two shilling fares and I think the matter is well worth investigating. I draw the attention of the Minister and of Mr. Andrews to the special excursion trains run during the summer, one of which left at 7.20, allowing people in Waterford time to come home from work, change their clothes and go out to Tramore for a few drinks, or go to a dance or whatever they felt like. Thousands of people availed of that service and it was good for Tramore to have so many people visit it. Now, however, practically no one travels on that train.

Before the Minister's Department, was set up the Department of Industry and Commerce gave good service to Waterford Harbour. It gave grants and loans to Waterford Harbour Commissioners for the erection of jetties and the provision of cranes. Waterford Harbour pays its way, though perhaps I should be reticent about that because I have seen so much of the public's money poured into harbours which could never repay it. There should be realism about such things and I am sure the Minister takes that into account. It should not be just a question of getting a grant for a harbour. Questions should be asked about it, such as, is its present accommodation sufficient, does anybody want to bring bigger cargoes into it, and are the merchants willing to import bigger cargoes through it?

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that over the years Waterford Harbour Commissioners have been progressive. They took advantage of the fact that one of the situations that sealed off the advancement of Waterford was that the Great Southern and Western Railway owned practically the whole northern side of the harbour but, by negotiation with the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, the present Taoiseach, and with Mr. Reynolds who was the Chief of C.I.E., an arrangement was made providing for a new jetty and last year the Waterford Harbour Commissioners bought it. It might not be looked at by some people as a good proposition for the Commissioners to buy it, but I have had the honour to be a member of that body and they approached the matter in a proper manner. They said it was not a question of pounds, shillings and pence but a matter of policy that the Waterford Harbour Commissioners should own it, that it should not be the property of C.I.E., and that the Commissioners should maintain and look after it.

As portion of their progressive scheme they acquired a wharf some years ago, called McCulloughs' Wharf, just below the new North Wall. It is an old wharf mainly composed of wood and is not in very good condition. A scheme is about to be put up to the Minister in regard to the wharf. It would be a splendid and progressive scheme because two or three ships of great length could lie at one berth. McCulloughs' Wharf would bring a road in that would make a complete roundabout, giving a road in to the dock and a road out of it. There are fine railway sidings there and C.I.E. in relation to some of their package deals could have cargo unloaded straight into trucks and driven away from the riverside.

In the matter of river boats we always seem to look to the west of Ireland. I have drawn the attention of the Minister's predecessor to this matter. The Suir is a beautiful, wide and magnificent river with landings at Checkpoint, Passage, Duncannon and Dunmore. In the pre-1914 days there was a river steamer there which paid. The only reason why it was brought away from that service was that ships became scarce and valuable and it was sold for a great price. There was a river paddle steamer on the Blackwater from Cappoquin to Youghal, one of the finest river runs that one could have. I regret that there is not some kind of public service on these rivers. I would draw the special attention of the Minister to that matter. I am sure he has enjoyed the Waterford run. I do not know if he has enjoyed the Cappoquin run. They are both to be commended.

In that part of his speech in which he referred to the cross-channel passenger service the Minister committed the sin of mentioning only Dún Laoghaire as an entry port. I shall not heap coals of fire on the Minister's head for the fact that there was a crowd of people left at Dún Laoghaire for one night because I know it would be impossible to maintain a service up to the very high pitch required to deal with extraordinary circumstances but I would suggest that the reason for the overcrowding at Dún Laoghaire is that British Railways have been pumping passengers into that port for years past. I have seen the passenger service at Waterford butchered by British Railways. I have seen their bills advertising travel to Ireland via Fishguard-Rosslare. One could see bills on railway stations from the carriage windows and if one went nearer one discovered in small print at the end of the bill that there was also a service from Fishguard to Waterford.

At the ticket office in Paddington I have seen people who asked for a ticket to Waterford being presented with a ticket through Fishguard to Rosslare even though the Waterford boat was sailing that night. I have been in our Irish Tourist Office in London—this is something outside the Minister's province—and heard a man inquiring about transport to Ireland and the Irish public servant there could only mention the trains from Euston and the Irish Mail and did not mention that there were alternative services from Fishguard to Rosslare, Fishguard to Waterford and Fishguard to Cork. The Fishguard to Cork service is still in operation and is a magnificent service. The Fishguard to Rosslare service is in operation. If the Minister were to draw the attention of British Railways to this matter and ask them to attempt to funnel some of their passengers to these ports of entry during the busy season it would facilitate traffic. I have seen these ports very crowded but never to the extent of the overcrowding that takes place at Dún Laoghaire.

This all comes of an old policy. I was at a presentation dinner to a gentleman who was an agent of British Railways in Dublin. In all the speeches that were made the port of Dublin was mentioned exclusively. I got up and mentioned that it was possible to enter Ireland through other ports. I regret that we have lost our passenger service which, in my opinion, we should not have lost. British Railways should have been compelled to retain that service. A British Act of Parliament provided that they should maintain a six day service. We made a concession and gave them a three day service during the economic war. They bludgeoned us into it because it did not appear that the Waterford Harbour Commissioners would get any support from the then Minister for Industry and Commerce.

I want to commend the Minister in respect of the new air service for cars. That is a very important service in relation to the tourist industry. The fact that the roads in England are crowded may induce people to come over here and bring their cars by air or by sea. It was mentioned by British Railways that they were to bring cars through the port of Waterford if the Rosslare boats were overcrowded. I do not know the position in relation to that matter at the moment.

The Minister should remember that there are other ports besides Dún Laoghaire. Deputy Burke spoke about ports that the Minister had improved and when I questioned him he said that the Minister had produced a Swedish report. I would not give two rows of pins for that report. It was mentioned in the debate on the Board of Works Estimate. It said that Killybegs and Greencastle should be developed as major fishery ports. This has nothing to do with the Minister's office now, but as it was raised by Deputy Burke, I should like to say that it was a pity they were catching so much fish at Dunmore as to confound the experts. They caught 300,000 to the 100,000 in Killybegs and to the 200,000 at Greencastle. That type of report is of no value——

The Deputy is getting away from the Estimate in discussing fisheries.

I am actually replying to something said on this matter just before you, Sir, came in.

A matter that occasionally gets into the papers and to which I am sure, the Minister has had his attention drawn concerns C.I.E. I suggest that the Minister should see the C.I.E. officials about it even though he has often protested that C.I.E. are a statutory body and that he cannot go to them. The Minister's colleagues have often said that also about other concerns—that they cannot interfere. I shall not accept that because I think the Minister is the representative of the people so far as transport and power are concerned and I consider that he has the right—if he has not that right he should bring in legislation to secure it —to go to anybody running a semi-State body.

I feel the Minister should go to the C.I.E. chiefs and come to an arrangement with British Railways and also consult his colleague, the Minister for Justice, to provide some protection from the type of passenger that Dean Swift wrote about, the yahoo. Only about one in a thousand of the people who travel in trains and boats carry on in this way, asserting their nationality, challenging everybody on the train or boat and, as we saw reported recently, assaulting a harmless teacher in charge of an educational tour arriving in Ireland and making a nuisance and a persecution of himself to everybody, whether travelling by bus or train. I think the Minister should consult with the Minister for Justice and see if it is possible, where Gardaí are stationed near railway stations, to arrange that some of them should be on the platform when trains are coming in or going out. They could help the guard of the train, and if necessary take unruly people off the train.

This would seem to be a matter for the Minister for Justice rather than the Minister for Transport and Power.

Is it not a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power when he reads in the paper that Mr. Todd Andrews was concerned with this? Would it not be a matter he should look into? If he dare not mention it to the Minister for Justice, could he not recommend that C.I.E. should appoint railway police? We formerly had railway police and there was not such great need for them at that time. We must try to cope with this singing, challenging type of person who will travel on trains and will always find himself, by accident, in a first-class carriage especially if it is occupied by some poor old lady or some children whom he can shout at, bully and terrify to get them out of it. This matter should be dealt with immediately.

Many Deputies have mentioned C.I.E. pensions and I want to direct the Minister's attention to these people. They were pensioned off 10, 12 or 14 years ago, people who, as I said at Question Time, worked for very small wages over very long hours when the railways were made to pay and were given pittances, not pensions, when they came out. I have seen awards given to people with only very short service. That is all right when they are declared redundant and are compensated or given reasonable pensions but it seems very hard that this small number of very good servants of the people—that is what they were—working for various railway companies should have these small pensions. As time goes on, with the cost of living increasing, they find themselves in very straitened circumstances.

To do what we suggest would not create a precedent because we heard about teachers in the same position who had been working in the old days for very small pay and the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Education recently made an award to them. I respectfully submit the C.I.E. pensioners' case to the Minister. I believe he should make a recommendation to C.I.E. to have the matter investigated to see if their lot could be improved. If somebody in his Department or in C.I.E. says to him: "This is not your business"—they might not say it so bluntly but perhaps would say: "We are a statutory body and the Minister cannot interfere," the Minister should reply: "If you are prepared to put up a scheme that will do justice to these people I shall provide the money." I am sure there will be no division on that if the Minister brings it before this House.

It is interesting to note from portion of the Minister's speech that the increased expenditure is not due in any way to the creation of a separate Department for Transport and Power. It is interesting also to note that the disappearance of a Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been offset. If that has been the only result, good and well, but it does not mean that there has not been some additional expense incurred at some particular point. However, we are not told about that.

Coming to Irish Shipping I notice that the figures given by the Minister are extremely vague. There is a good deal of talk about replacements, about keeping shipping efficient and modern and about the placing of contracts. I notice that a contract for a new boat has been placed in Britain since 1957. I would have thought that contracts such as that might have been placed in Belfast where there is serious unemployment. If we are at all sincere in our expressions about that part of our country, a gesture of that kind would promote goodwill.

The Minister said that in 1959-60, I think, before providing for depreciation Irish Shipping showed a trading profit of £216,000. He did not tell us what the amount provided for depreciation is or is likely to be, whether it exceeds £216,000, still leaving a deficit or whether it is less than that figure enabling the company to show a profit. I should like him, when replying, to say what that figure is.

On the question of harbours, we cannot very well be impressed by the promise of things to come. It is a particular feature of the Minister's Party that the note that must be struck on all occasions is that the dawn is around the corner, that prosperity is looming up and that in the near future we are likely to be on the road to better things. It is a useful sort of anaesthetic with which to gull the people but how long the people will stand it is another matter. The provision and maintenance of harbours is a very serious matter in the west of Ireland. I should like to know if the Minister has made any progress with regard to the harbour at Ballina and what is the present position with regard to the harbour at Blacksod. I do not imagine that very much progress has been made.

On the question of aviation, the Minister is inclined to rebuke anybody who would suggest that capital expenditure be taken into deficit. Unless it is a complete present I think that capital expenditure must be taken into consideration in some way unless you make all these things book-keeping transactions. The hard fact is that from the inception of our airports, both at Shannon and Dublin, there has been up to date unrecouped expenditure of £13,016,577. It is true that the Minister gives a figure in relation to each of them entitled "depreciation and interest." I want to know, and I am sure the House and the country would like to know, how that figure is to be divided, how much of it is depreciation and how much interest. Again I want to know what the meaning of "interest" is, what it represents. Does it represent a book-keeping transaction or is it interest paid to somebody? Was it paid back to the State or to any particular finance companies? These are things that people want to know and that they should know. There should be a proper segregation of these figures if they are to be accepted at all.

I can well understand the enthusiasm of Air Lingus in the development and increase in the number of their shorter routes to centres in England and Europe. I can well see the future for that but, having regard to the Minister's own figures for sales, catering and other receipts in Shannon since the introduction of jet planes, how does he expect, or how do the Government expect that the introduction of our own jet planes will improve that situation in any way? If the jet planes from other countries are by-passing Shannon and if the passenger numbers are being reduced, from what source does he hope or does the company hope to get passengers for our own jet planes so as to improve the situation?

That is the situation confronting us with regard to Aerlinte and again we are left a figure which is up in the air. The Minister tells us that the excess of expenditure over revenue is £790,000. Why are we not given the figures of the actual expenditure and the figures of the actual revenue? It is because the gap of £790,000 is in itself sufficiently appalling to contemplate and that if the figure for expenditure were put against the figure for revenue, it would show up the position in a much more unfavourable light? I should like to know the figure for expenditure and also for revenue so that we could see where we are and what we are doing in relation to this fantastic gamble of £6 million of the people's money on three jet planes. I cannot see how they are to be used as a profit-making venture except to give reduced fares for further emigration from this country.

While there is a reduction in the amount which C.I.E. require from the Exchequer, it is quite correct to say that it has been brought about by shorter runs and higher fares in buses and fewer trains. The closing of lines is causing some concern, particularly in Dublin. We in the west of Ireland have our own experience of the dead hand on the branch lines with the consequent deteriorating effect that the closing of those lines has had on the areas concerned. I refer to Achill Sound, Newport, Mulrany and the town of Killala. These places have never really recovered from that. There is also serious duplication of road and rail services and, while the company says that the closing of branch lines is necessary because they are uneconomic, it is a fact that these lines are uneconomic because of the competition which exists between them and the road services.

Why not devote some attention to discontinuing road services in certain instances? I cannot see the point of having so many long distance buses travelling almost side by side with the route that the trains are taking. Now that trains have become faster, to a very great extent I can see a falling off in the use of the bus and I would suggest that some serious consideration be given to a feeder system of buses from outlying towns to the railway stations rather than have the buses and the trains pursuing a course almost side by side from all parts of the country, from the west, north and south coasts, into Dublin.

With regard to the closing of certain stations in Dublin, if my memory serves me correctly, the Transport Act of 1958 lays down specifically that prior to the closing of any station notice of that must published in Iris Oifigiúil. I do not think that has been done in relation to the halts between Dublin and Bray. That has not been done; it should have been done and the Minister may well find himself in trouble as a result.

It is interesting to note that the drive in relation to rural electrification begun some years ago is coming to a close. It is to be hoped that, while the Minister says the more difficult parts of the country have been left last, the E.S.B. will go back on them with all speed. I can well understand one, two or maybe three houses being placed in such a position as to make connection difficult without a very high service charge but I know of villages comprising up to 20 houses where the initial charges and subsequent service charges are much too high in relation to these people. These are the villages and the sort of outlying places which are largely in our Gaeltacht areas and these are the places to the maintenance of which we all give lip service. We say we want to keep that mode of life and the language, in being; it is the mode of life and the language we are told at any rate, which are desired for the whole country ultimately, but it is the people of the Gaeltacht who are most inconvenienced by the attitude of the E.S.B. towards initial costs and special service charges. There will be losses on rural electrification but the losses are so great that the few villages and few outlying houses, certainly in my constituency, which are affected would not place a great extra burden on the E.S.B.

The Minister can very well say he has no responsibility for this but, like Deputy Lynch, I think these statutory boards, the E.S.B., Bord na Móna, C.I.E. and all the rest of them, should have regard to what Government policy is. I am sure they do and I am sure this disavowal of all responsibility on the part of Ministers, not alone the Minister for External Affairs but all Ministers associated with such boards, is merely an effort to by-pass queries of Deputies in relation to them.

I am pleased to see that turf development is going ahead but there is one matter to which I want specifically to refer, that is, the private development in relation to milled peat. Bord na Móna tell people who are anxious to promote that interest privately that they have no objection but when companies, firms or individuals seek help from Foras Tionscal or bodies of that kind their applications are turned down without any reason being given, but the implicacation is always the same, that Bord na Móna are able to meet the demand. I know of one firm which has been refused financial facilities although they would have given considerable employment and provided a considerable income to many small producers of turf. However, that is really not a matter for the Minister except to the extent that he should make it clear to Bord na Móna that, where there is a private industry of that kind likely to start, they should not impede the promoters in any way by private or secret dealings with Foras Tionscal and such like bodies.

On the whole, while the Minister has done his best to present a picture that would appear on the face of it to be a happy one, it is page after page a record of debt. Side by side with almost oblique references to debt there is expressed the pious hope that in the future things will be better. That future, from the point of view of these debts in relation to the State, seems to be a long way off. It is like Goldsmith's horizon of long ago which "still as we follow flies." We do not seem to be able to get ahead of it.

I want to know from the Minister the exact figures for depreciation and for interest in regard to the air services. I want to know if my figure of £13,016,567 is unrecouped capital, if any interest has been paid upon that sum. That figure is arrived at by adding the figure of capital to the salaries paid and subtracting the figure given for revenue. Would the Minister also say what was the figure for depreciation provided for Irish Shipping for the years 1959-60 as against the trading profit of £216,000? Has he any information about or any plans for the harbours at Ballina and at Blacksod? In regard to the Shannon Free Airport Development Authority, I should like to know what that authority was doing from 1957 on its original setting up until it was superseded in 1959 by the later authority, what it expended and what it cost the people to operate during that time.

I want to know, too, the figures for expenditure and the figures for revenue in relation to Aerlinte operations in the year in which the Minister says expenditure exceeded revenue by £790,000. I should like the Minister to be a little more specific in matters of this kind where public money is involved and not to try to cover up through the medium of bookkeeping transactions, which seemed to be the objective throughout the whole of the Minister's speech. While the overall picture shows great effort on the part of all the people concerned in administering these bodies, it should be remembered that they are operating against a very strong current indeed.

I want to refer to just one matter in relation to C.I.E. pensions. The position is, as we are all aware, that the men who retired after 1st April, 1956, have an increased pension, the full rate being 51/3 per week as against 37/6 per week paid to those who retired prior to that date. The full rate is reduced to £1 and 12/- respectively when these men reach 70 years of age. I know it is very easy to argue that the cost of living is the same for the men who retired one month earlier and, on those grounds, I should expect the maximum of support. I am, however, seeking consideration not on those grounds alone. I shall not make the case that it would be desirable, or that it would be social justice, to pay pensions to C.I.E. workers in respect of the service they gave to that concern regardless of other considerations. What I wish to prove, if I can, is that this can be done without serious loss to the pension fund, and without any cost to the State or to the taxpayer.

For the information of Deputies who may not be fully aware of the position or completely familiar with the problem, men over 70 years of age, prior to 1st April, 1956, were in receipt of 6/- per week; this was increased to 12/- per week. Unfortunately, this was not an absolute 100 per cent. increase because the voucher which had been available to them prior to that increase was withdrawn. In any event, it is, I think, ridiculous to expect a man to live, especially in the city of Dublin, on a pension of 12/- a week. I know the proposed social welfare legislation will raise most of these pensions to £2 per week, provided these people have the requisite number of stamps, but we are not quite sure when that legislation will be finalised; neither are we sure as to what its final form will be.

What is required immediately is that the men over 70 who retired before 1st April, 1956, be paid pensions at the rate of £1 per week, an increase of 8/- per week on the present rate, and the men under 70 pensions at the rate of 51/3d. per week, an increase of 13/9d. on the present rate, with a pro rata increase for females and those in between who are in receipt of pensions varying between the two figures I have quoted.

In reply to a Parliamentary Question tabled by me on 1st June the Minister for Transport and Power gave me certain information in the form of a tabular statement. On that information I propose now to base certain calculations. There is a total of 12,566 employees covered by the pension scheme. I am referring now to wage grade employees. In the year 1957 those 12,566 employees contributed £37,132 and the Board contributed £302,500. In 1958 the employees contributed £155,025 and the Board contributed £250,000. In 1959, the employees contributed £118,079 and the Board contributed £200,000. The total contributions to the pension scheme in the three years were, therefore, £339,632, £405,025 and £318,079 respectively. From those figures we can, I think, assume that the average annual income to the pension fund will exceed £300,000 per year.

The number of pensioners on 1st June, 1960, was 2,630. The weekly amount paid in pensions at, as the tabular statement says, the most convenient date, was £3,416. The annual amount therefore paid out in pensions is £177,632. That leaves over £114,000, or almost half, going into reserve in the pension fund each year. The amount standing to the credit of the scheme at the latest available date was £2,557,662. This sum is invested in various securities approved by the Government and must yield substantial dividends each year, dividends which are put to the credit of the scheme.

I set out to show that almost as much money goes into reserve as is paid in pensions. I should like to examine now what effect my earlier suggestions would have if they were adopted and acted upon. There are 1,210 pensioners exactly, in receipt of 12/- per week. One of the purposes of my contribution to this debate is to seek to have these pensions increased. For all those who are over 70 years of age—we can take it, I suggest, that the mortality rate would be fairly high—an increase from 12/- per week to £1 per week, or 8/- per week, for 1,210 would amount to £484 per week or £24,168 per annum. There are 136 pensioners receiving 37/6d. per week. Those should be increased by 13/9d., I suggest, to 51/3d. An increase of 13/9d. per week for 136 pensioners would amount to £93 8s. 4d. per week, or £4,857 13s. 4d. per annum.

There are 43 other male pensioners and 29 women pensioners. It is impossible for me now to work out the exact pro rata increase in relation to these 72 pensioners but, taking an average figure of £1 per week, I am quite satisfied it would work out at a good deal less than that average and we would find the cost of the increase in respect of these 72 pensioners amounting, on an average, to £3,744 per year. The total extra amount, therefore, to be drawn from the fund each year would be £32,769. In other words, the interest on £2,057,662 invested in gilt edged securities and on the £211,662 on Bank deposit would more than cover the cost of these increases and the amount standing to the credit of the scheme would continue to increase at the rate of at least £70,000 per annum from the interest alone earned on the pension fund.

It is quite clear, I think, that both in equity and justice, these people are entitled to be considered for a minimum increase in pension. I should like to add that the same case can be made for salaried officers and clerks. To the credit of the scheme in relation to them there is a sum of £1,338,446 standing. For the C.I.E. superannuation scheme, 1951, for salaried staff there is £1,089,027 standing to credit. I put it to the Minister that he should use his good offices with C.I.E. to see that these people get an immediate increase in pension. Taking the average rate of interest at 4 per cent.—I think 4 per cent. is a fair figure—the increases I have suggested would not come to even half the moneys earned by way of dividends. The dividends from this money invested could easily enable the increased pensions to be met. That is the principal matter about which I wished to speak and it is the only criticism I have of the Department of Transport and Power.

I think the establishment of this Department was a most desirable development and I should like to congratulate the Minister on the wonderful work he is doing. Transport and power in this country are now moving as never before and are very much in the headlines. The right steps have been taken by the various semi-State bodies to cope with the threat of jet-airlines and to prevent further losses on our railway system.

We know at last from the Minister's statement what sections of the Department of Industry and Commerce were handed over to him when he became Minister for Transport and Power. The last speaker congratulated the Minister on the good work he was doing but I can assure the Deputy that the people of South Kerry have not the same high opinion of the Minister. One of his first actions was to close the branch railway lines in that area and leave it derelict in the matter of transport. Protests have been made by the people concerned in connection with the closing of the Headford-Kenmare line and the Farranfore-Cahirciveen-Valentia Harbour line. An assurance was given that an alternative system of transport would be provided and that it would not be more expensive, but very soon after the closing of the lines bus fares were increased. This was a blow particularly for school children who had concessions on the Farranfore-Cahirciveen line. Representations by the teachers and parents were made to C.I.E. about three months ago, but we have heard nothing about it ever since and the increased fares still stand.

Lorries are not suitable for the transport of livestock, and this is especially true in South Kerry where the roads are winding, narrow for the most part, and dangerous. We hear a great deal spoken about road safety nowadays, but surely it is not improving road safety to have these heavy C.I.E. lorries travelling along these roads. In view of all the tourist and other traffic in this area, I think it was suicidal to close down the branch lines.

We also hear a great deal about improving the Gaeltacht, but surely no consideration was given to that when these branch lines were closed. The railways are used by school children, or emigrants going abroad and are used particularly by the poorer section of the community. The system of transport they have now is entirely unsuitable and not at all in keeping with the promises made by the Acting-Chairman of C.I.E. As I said, these lorries are not suitable for the transport of livestock and they are also not suitable for the transport of wool. A large quantity of wool is sent from the mountainous districts of South Kerry. The closing of the Farranfore-Cahirciveen line has had a very bad effect on tourism—numbers of people took advantage of that railway—and in fact it has had a bad effect on the whole Ring of Kerry route. There is no other system of transport there. People tell me that the C.I.E. buses are not as suitable at all. They run regularly, but they are not entirely suitable. People were so accustomed to the other system of transport that I am afraid it will take a long time before they are satisfied with the alternative system.

Perhaps the greatest sufferers of all were the employees on those lines. The closing of the lines meant that many of them were retired on small pensions and gratuities and a number of them were transferred elsewhere, thus breaking up their homes and separating them from their old friends and neighbours. Some alteration was made recently in the Dublin to Bray line as a result of which some stations were closed. Why was that not done in connection with these two branch lines in Kerry? After all, the losses incurred were not so very much. They were due, I think, to improvements on the lines which were carried out about a year or two before they were closed. There did not seem to be much economy in that.

The lines were improved in various ways, the stations were painted and the next thing was that an order was made to close them. As I said, the losses would not be very much. The Minister in his Estimate spoke a great deal about the airlines. There are losses there too; yet the airlines are being continued. But the poor man's system of transport is discontinued. I admit that the people did not, perhaps, make use of these lines as they should have done, but no effort was made to induce them to use the lines to such an extent that no losses would be incurred. The position now is that these people in South Kerry are left with a system of transport entirely unsuited to their needs.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 9th June, 1960.
Top
Share