Vol. 184 No. 1
asked the Minister for Justice whether he is aware that hoteliers, traders and publicans in Tramore and other seaside resorts have suffered severe loss by reason of the repeal in the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960, of the provisions which permitted the district court to grant area exemptions orders for seaside resorts on Sundays during the holiday season; whether he has received representations in this regard; and whether amending legislation is contemplated in the near future.
33.
asked the Minister for Justice whether complaints relating to Sunday opening hours and lack of special facilities for tourist resorts under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960, have been brought to his notice; and whether the Government will introduce amending legislation (1) to rearrange Sunday opening hours in rural Ireland, and (2) to provide for area exemption orders at the discretion of the district courts.
34.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will introduce legislation to amend the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960, so as to extend the hours for facilities in obtaining intoxicating liquor in licensed premises on Sundays, and also to enable district justices to use their discretion in the granting of area exemption orders on Sundays.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 32, 33 and 34 together.
While I have received some representations for an extension of the licensing laws on Sundays in tourist resorts and in other places on the occasion of football matches and the like, I am far from satisfied that there is a public demand for additional facilities. I have also received representations and information that the existing hours are adequate, and, indeed, I have received representations that they are excessive.
I do not accept that publicans in holiday resorts have experienced any loss of trade on Sundays by reason of the changes made by the Liquor Act, 1960, in the hours during which drink may lawfully be sold. Losses, if any, have been occasioned by the fact that there is now strict enforcement of the licensing laws and illicit trading is not now tolerated.
So far as Sunday hours of opening in holiday resorts in the holiday season are concerned, the recent legislation gives effect to the unanimous recommendations of the Commission which my predecessor set up in 1956 to consider the operation of the licensing laws. As I said, however, in the concluding debates on the Bill some months ago, I do not expect the Intoxicating Liquor Act of 1960 to be the last Act of the Oireachtas to deal with licensing hours: that Act has been in force, however, less than four months and if there is to be any question of its amendment, the Government will require to have evidence of a substantial kind as to the necessity-for doing so.
Quite apart from the publicans' interest in this matter, has the Minister not received representations from rural Ireland that the evening hours of opening on Sunday are not suitable and that, instead of the existing opening hours, it would be much more convenient for everybody if the opening hours were from 7 p.m. to 10 p.m., or something of that order?
With regard to the second part of the question, surely the Minister must have received the strongest possible representations from small tourist resorts all around the south-west and west coast that the existing legislation is causing very serious, possibly irreparable, losses because of the diversion of the normal tourist traffic that used to come to these areas and the lack of adequate accommodation during the summer months? Will the Minister take steps to make inquiries in these areas, if he has not so far heard anything himself, in order to inform himself of the kind of complaints which have reached, I believe, almost every Deputy in this House?
Arising out of the Minister's reply, is the Minister not aware that in Tramore public meetings, attended by all sections and every political group, addressed a protest to him because of the loss of trade caused by the introduction of the Liquor Act?
Is the Minister further aware that the County Donegal Development Association, in conjunction with local Deputies, held a protest meeting in relation to the hours of closing on Sunday? Would he take into account, and consider, the views expressed at that meeting not only by Opposition Deputies but by members of his own Party as well?
I am also aware that there is a very strong volume of opinion that the laws as passed less than 4 months ago should be adhered to. I want the members of this House to take note of that fact. I had a very difficult task here when I was defending the Sunday hours of 5 to 9 p.m. against representations being made to me by all the temperance organisations which represent hundreds of thousands of people in this country. I have recently received representations from some of these temperance societies again asking me to ensure that there will be no yielding of further time for drinking on the Sabbath Day. We must have some concern for the fact that the hours we have at present from 12.30 to 2 p.m. and from 5 to 9 p.m. are sufficient to meet the needs of any reasonable individual who wants to consume a drink. We must give some period of time to have this matter tested. I should be inclined to say that the period should be two years. Some of my colleagues might favour a lesser period. The least period we should have for the testing of this very important measure would in my opinion be twelve months.
Surely the Minister has received representations from rural areas that the hours 5 to 9 p.m. do not suit? I suggest 7 to 10 p.m. as having been represented to me to be very much more suitable hours and they would actually be less than the existing hours. But, whether the Minister says 7 to 10.30 p.m. or 7 to 10 p.m., which are less than the existing hours, surely he realises that, however excellent his intentions, the hours 5 to 9 p.m. are not proving suitable for rural consumers?
Where?
All over the country.
The Deputy does not go to football matches, not to Roscommon.
I am accustomed to go about the country. If an inquiry is made, the Minister will find that the present hours do not suit people in the country. Deputy Ó Briain should know that, for people milking cows and doing other work on a Sunday evening, if they do not get into town for a drink before 9 p.m., they must do without it. I suggest to the Minister that without directing any of these matters into a high degree of principle where there is no suggestion by anybody that the hours should further be extended we ought to try if possible——
That is an argument, not a question.
The Minister said he received strong representations against extending the hours. I am not asking him to extend the hours, but to substitute more convenient hours for the hours at present in existence.
I would ask the Minister to extend the hours on Sunday and to give exemptions for tourist resorts and special occasions.
That is not a supplementary question.
I would ask the Minister to introduce legislation giving power to give exemptions for special occasions such as football matches and other sports on Sunday evening and for tourist resorts which make their living by the licensed trade. I trust the Minister will consider proposals in relation to special occasions and special exemptions on Sunday from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m.
Is the Minister not aware that in rural Ireland, save on isolated occasions, Sunday is the only day of the week when men can meet, discuss matters of common interest and have a drink—and it is an ancient Irish custom and tradition? As indicated in the Question, there is a widespread demand in all parts of the country for an amendment of the Act in relation to Sunday trading hours.
The Minister refers to representations he has received from temperance organisations stating that the hours are adequate. What do these gentlemen know about the drinking hours? They neither partake of the facilities offered by the present hours nor did so during the hours which operated prior to this Act. Surely representations from other organisations should get equal consideration from the Minister? It is all very fine for these temperance organisations to tell other people what they should do. If they confined themselves to their own sphere we should all be satisfied.
I want to support Deputy Dillon. The extension of the closing hour to 10 p.m. on Sunday would be more suitable. We read in the newspapers recently that several gentlemen came out at 9 p.m. and, having nowhere to go, bashed up a few dance hall attendants. If the closing hour were 10 p.m. they would go home. They had nowhere to go at 9 p.m.
I call on the Minister to make the final reply.
It is astonishing how quickly Deputies change their point of view. I am not objecting to that. We all have a right to change our point of view. I leant heavily on Deputy Dillon during the course of the debate on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill because he stood solidly for uniformity and so did I. However, he wanted the hours on Sunday to be reduced from 9 to 7 p.m. Had I accepted Deputy Dillon's amendment the hours now would not be from 5 to 9 p.m. but from 5 to 7 p.m. on Sunday. Deputy O'Donnell put down an amendment to the Bill objecting to the abolition of area exemption orders but he did not move his amendment.
On a point of order. The Deputy moved it. When the Minister said he would not accept it, I withdrew it.
I shall not object to that.
The Deputy announced he had not the support of his Party.
I did no such thing.
Order.
The Deputy said that at some meeting he was addressing.
You will find it on the record of the House.
Let us at least give the hours contained in the Act a trial. All I am asking is to give them a fair trial. When they have been tried out and found wanting——
They have got a fair trial and been found wanting.
I have no intention whatever of amending the Act at this stage nor is there any means by which exemptions in the form Deputy Wycherley has in mind could now be made. The area exemption orders have been abolished. The bona fide trade has been abolished. The quid pro quo was this extension of hours to the whole of rural Ireland on Sundays. That was a very big advance. The ecclesiastical societies, to which we must give some consideration, think we have gone very much too far. The propaganda being used to have this Bill altered will be insignificant to what would take place if we attempted to interfere with the hours by extending them on the Sabbath Day.
35.
asked the Minister for Justice whether in view of the widespread demand for increased trading hours on Sundays he will consider introducing legislation to amend the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1960, so as to grant additional hours of service on Sunday.
I am not aware, and I do not believe, that there is any foundation whatsoever for the suggestion that there is a widespread demand for increased trading hours on Sundays and my experience in promoting the recent Act leaves me in no doubt that there is a considerable body of opinion opposed to any such increase.
In the reply to the preceding Questions (Nos. 32, 33 and 34) I dealt with the particular question of holiday resorts but, as far as the country generally is concerned, the information that I have received, both from trade interests and from others, goes to show that, while some areas might find different hours more suitable, there is no serious or representative demand for longer hours. The Government's attitude to the question of introducing an amendment to the Act was stated in reply to the preceding Questions.
Would the Minister consider an amendment on the lines I suggested in the previous Supplementary Questions? I am afraid the Minister is not conversant with public opinion at the present time. Let me reiterate that the demand is widespread so far as Sunday is concerned. The Minister would satisfy all interested sections if an amendment was made so far as Sunday trading is concerned.
When I get representations of the kind which I have been receiving. I have them investigated. I do not take them lightly or just put them away. I have exhaustive enquiries made as a result of some of these representations throughout the country and through some of the vintners' organisations. I was assured by these organisations that the hours are entirely suitable to the majority of licensed vintners but they admit that in a particular resort, such as seaside resorts, the hours may not be suitable. Again, we have got to remember that we cannot in any circumstances have general agreement on hours. This Bill was before the House for a period of almost nine months and every possible phase of opinion was heard and voiced. The most suitable hours that we appeared to have been able to agree upon were the hours put forward by the Commission and accepted by the Government.
