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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Nov 1960

Vol. 184 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Charities Bill, 1957—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill is designed to continue in being the present Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests in Ireland, to consolidate and amend the various statutes relating to the Commissioners, and to make certain changes in the law of charities.

At the outset, I think I should pay tribute to the Commissioners for the excellent work they have done and continue to do. They are an unpaid body who devote an amount of their time to what are very important functions in the life of the community. As at present constituted, they date back to an enactment of 1844, and, in the years since then, they have an outstanding record of public duty and devotion to the obligations imposed on them. They are drawn from men of different religious persuasions and their tasks are sometimes of a delicate nature. Nevertheless, they have always worked amicably together, and they are proof, if proof is needed, that Irishmen, Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter, have no difficulty in successfully combining for the good of the nation.

Before I deal with the provisions of this Bill, I should like to say something of its historical background. In October, 1952, and following on a resolution passed by the Commissioners, a committee was set up by the Minister for Justice "to consider the question of the consolidation of the statute law in relation to charitable donations and bequests in Ireland and to make recommendations" to him. The committee consisted of the late Mr. W.E. Glover, former Registrar of Titles and a former Chairman of the Commissioners, Mr. G.F. McCarthy, B.L., formerly Director of the Statute Law Reform and Consolidation Office and Mr. P.P. O'Donoghue, S.C., former Principal Legal Assistant to the Attorney General, with Mr. J.S. Martin, Solicitor, Secretary to the Commissioners, as secretary. Messrs. McCarthy and O'Donoghue are Commissioners. The Committee reported in May, 1953, recommending certain changes in the law and also submitting the draft of a consolidation Bill. The report of the committee was forwarded to the Commissioners for their views. They suggested a number of additional changes in the existing law and, in particular, they were of opinion that the existing statutory provision, providing that a gift of land for charitable purposes is ineffective if made within three months of the donor's death, should not be re-enacted until the advisability of so doing had received the most careful consideration.

In December, 1954, the then Government authorised the Minister for Justice:—

(1) to have a Bill drafted to provide for

(a) the substitution, for the existing common law concept of a charity, of a more satisfactory definition and

(b) the consolidation of the statute law in relation to charities; and

(2) to move for leave to introduce the Bill in Dáil Éireann.

The Charities Bill, 1954, was accordingly introduced in Dáil Éireann and a Bill was prepared incorporating a definition of charitable purposes. In the meantime, the Charitable Donations and Bequests (Amendment) Act, 1955, was enacted in July, 1955. This Act provided for a substantial increase in the cy-près powers of the Commissioners, and allowed them to deal cheaply and expeditiously with a number of cases which might otherwise have involved the legal costs of applications to the High Court.

The definition of "charitable purposes" in the 1954 Bill met with strong opposition. It was pointed out that, as the definition would exclude from rates a number of hitherto rateable properties, the effect on ordinary ratepayers would be serious. "Charitable purposes" has a more restricted meaning in valuation and rating law than it has in income tax and estate duty law. On the revenue side, objection was taken to certain aspects of the definition and also to an amended definition that would not apply for rating purposes.

In view of the difficulties of obtaining a definition more or less acceptable to the various interests involved, the present Government were satisfied that it would be better to drop the idea of a definition in the present Bill. In arriving at this conclusion, the Government took into account the fact that it is obviously preferable to have no definition of a charity rather than a restricted one. Moreover they felt that a better line of approach would be to amend the law so as to get rid of certain existing anomalies concerned with what is and what is not a charity. A committee on charities in the Six Counties—the Newark Committee— which reported in 1959, found themselves "unable to recommend any major change in the legal conception of charity." In England, in a Government White Paper issued in 1955 consequent on the Nathan Report on Charitable Trusts (1952) it is stated:

"3. Therefore, the choice is between leaving things as they are and adopting a new definition which is different in substance. The Government agree with the Committee that there is no reason to change the present content of charity and therefore they do not propose that a fresh statutory definition should be enacted."

One of the problems, which it was hoped in 1954 that a definition of "charitable purposes" could clear up, was that contemplative Orders might possibly be held not to be charitable because of the decision of the British House of Lords in 1949—Gilmour v. Coats—that the Order of Discalced Carmelite Nuns was not charitable. The late Judge Dixon refused to follow this decision in a case decided in the High Court in 1956 in regard to the same order in Ireland, holding that a bequest to the Carmelite Convent, Blackrock, Dublin, was a good charitable bequest. The late Judge Gavan Duffy had already held in 1943 that the Order of Marie Reparatrice, generally called the Order of Perpetual Adoration, was charitable. It is unlikely that Gilmour v. Coats would be followed by the Supreme Court.

I can, of course, only express my own view on this; but I must say that I find it hard to imagine that the reasoning in that case, that contemplative Orders do not confer any public benefit, could be accepted ultimately in this country as sound or valid. Indeed, as the history of gifts for Masses in each country shows, the law of charitable trusts in Ireland has over the years tended to be different from what it has been in England.

Where a religious Order has objects, some of which only are charitable, a gift to the Order simpliciter is not charitable, but this difficulty may be overcome by specifying that the gift is “for the charitable objects” of the particular Order. In a case reported in the Irish Reports for 1935, a gift “for the absolute use of the Jesuit Order in Ireland” was held by a majority of the Supreme Court to be a valid non-charitable gift for the benefit of a class, namely, the individual members of the Irish Province of the Order. Chief Justice Kennedy dissenting, held the gift to be charitable. In 1881, a gift to “the Sisters of Mercy at Bantry” had been upheld by the former Irish Court of Appeal as a bequest to the individual nuns of the community. Unfortunately, however, bequests continue to be drafted in terms which leave their validity, either as charitable bequests or as ordinary bequests, open to doubt, and we are satisfied that something ought to be done by legislation to cover certain of these cases.

We cannot, of course, solve every difficulty but it is, I think, necessary to urge people who intend to make bequests to charity to take some care with the form of the bequest. In fact, it is very, very often the use of elaborate and unnecessary language that leads to unnecessary trouble in the interpretation of the intention of the donor. Again a testator should be clear in his mind as to whether he intends his bequest to be a charitable bequest or a bequest to a particular person absolutely. The traps may be avoided if more care is taken in the drafting and particularly the trap of the rule against perpetuities. In Section 45, it is proposed to validate gifts for purposes some of which are charitable and some not. At present such gifts are usually void for uncertainty. I shall examine Section 45 later.

In July, 1957, the Charities Bill, 1957, was introduced in Dáil Éireann. The Bill is in the same form as the draft 1954 Bill, except that it does not contain a definition of charitable purposes and that it incorporates a number of additional amendments in the law which, in the opinion of the Commissioners and of the Government, are extremely desirable.

I shall now discuss the Bill in some detail. Part I of the Bill is the preliminary and general part. Part II proposes to continue in existence the present Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests (the Board), and it consolidates with amendments the relevant provisions of the Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) Act, 1844 (the 1844 Act), the Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) Act, 1867 (the 1867 Act), and the Charitable Donations and Bequests Act (Ireland), 1871 (the 1871 Act). These Acts are the main Acts dealing with the Commissioners and their powers. As at present, there will be 11 Commissioners, appointed by the Government, but there will be no provision as to their religion. The jurisdiction and powers of the Board are dealt with in Chapter II. The following is a summary of their principal powers which it is proposed to continue:

(1) Power to dispense with the publication of charitable bequests—Section 20;

(2) Power to advise charity trustees—Section 21;

(3) Power to sue for the recovery of charitable gifts—Sections 23 and 24;

(4) Power to institute legal proceedings and certify cases to the Attorney General with a view to his instituting such proceedings—Sections 25 and 26;

(5) Power to frame cy-près schemes —Section 29;

(6) Power to accept gifts for charitable purposes—Section 31;

(7) Power to sell or exchange charity land—Section 34; and

(8) Power to sell and buy rent charges—Sections 35 and 36.

As I have already mentioned, the Charitable Donations and Bequests (Amendment) Act, 1955, considerably increased the cy-près powers of the Commissioners. Prior to that Act, the powers of the Commissioners were limited to cases not exceeding £300 principal or £30 annual sum. In cases over that amount, application had to be made to the High Court. The 1955 Act increased the jurisdiction to cover any gift for the time being consisting of:—

(i) personalty up to £2,000,

(ii) land up to £60 rateable valuation,

(iii) an annual sum up to £100.

Section 29 of the Bill will replace the 1955 Act and, as suggested by the Commissioners, it is proposed to give the Board cy-près powers for any gift up to £5,000 in value, the value of land to be reckoned at fifty times the rateable valuation, the value of any rent charge at fifteen times the annual amount thereof, and the value of any ordinary periodical payment at twenty times the annual amount thereof.

The new provision will allow the Board, first, to revoke an existing cyprès scheme, whether made by the Commissioners or by the court, that is found unlawful or impracticable, and, secondly, to substitute a new cy-près scheme in its place. I shall give an example of the circumstances in which it is necessary to have a cy-près scheme made. If, say, a person leaves by will money for the building of a church in a particular district and on his death, it is found that such a church has already been built, the money will be applied cy-près for the repair and upkeep of the church. The expression cy-près comes from the French, and although its exact original meaning is doubtful, it has now, by professional usage, come to mean “as near (as possible)”.

As well as the existing powers of the Board, Part II of the Bill proposes certain additional powers to which I wish to draw attention. The sections concerned are Sections 6, 30, 32, 38 and 44.

Section 6 provides that the Board shall have and be deemed always to have had power to acquire, hold and dispose of land. The power of the Commissioners in regard to land itself is doubtful, although they are specifically entitled to own a rent-charge. They already hold land which came to them under the 1844 Act from an old Board of Commissioners, established in 1800, which ceased to function in 1844. By the way, there is an overlap between Section 5 and Section 6 in the matter of holding land, but this can be cured by amendment later.

Section 30 will allow the Commissioners to alter schemes under the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Act, 1885. This Act established a Commission of five members who were given wide powers of drafting schemes for the future management of educational endowments. These schemes were to supersede all existing statutes, trusts, etc., in regard to the endowments. The power of the Commission to draft schemes expired in 1897, but the 1885 Act, in Section 18, enacted that the Commission might provide for the alteration of a scheme from time to time by the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, upon application by the governing body or any party interested, and I quote: "provided such alteration shall not be contrary to anything contained in this Act".

There is serious doubt as to the Commissioners' powers to amend these educational endowment schemes. An example of the type of alteration needed in a scheme is where the governors, owing to lack of pupils, desire permission to dispose of the school premises and apply the endowment moneys towards the grant of scholarships to other schools.

Section 30 proposes specifically to authorise the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests to make any alterations in a scheme, framed and approved under the 1885 Act, at the request of the responsible person of persons, provided that any alterations so made are in furtherance of education; and any such alterations shall be deemed not to be contrary to anything contained in the 1885 Act. The section makes appropriate provision for the giving of public notice of any proposed alterations other than those of a minor or formal nature.

Section 32 proposes to allow the Board to invest charity funds under their control in securities not authorised by law or not authorised by the trust instrument, and to permit ordinary charity trustees to do likewise. At present, under Section 12 of the 1867 Act, where securities are held on trust, after the determination of or subject to a prior life or other limited interest, for charitable purposes, the trustees may, if the Commissioners do not object, vary, alter or transpose the securities; and, if the Commissioners object, the trustees may apply to the High Court to carry out their proposal. The object of Section 12 of the 1867 Act seems to have been to prevent trustees adversely affecting the interests of the life tenant, and this object is now enshrined in Section 33 of the Bill, which will re-enact the existing law. It is proposed in Section 32 to make similar provision for charity funds not subject to a life or other limited interest.

Subsection (3) of Section 32 confines investment of charity funds by, or with the approval of, the Commissioners or the Court to such investments as are (1) authorised by the trust instrument or under the Trustee (Authorised Investments) Act, 1958, or (2) investments in Irish securities, such securities being (a) stocks or shares, the ordinary shares being quoted on the Dublin or Cork Stock Exchange, in any industrial or commercial company incorporated in the State, or maintaining in the State a register of its shareholders resident in the State, or (b) freehold or leasehold land in the State. There is a saving for investments expressly forbidden by the trust instrument. The proposed amendment of the law is in line with Government policy as enshrined in the 1958 Act, and also with the policy adopted by the Minister for Finance in connection with the Private Bill dealing with the Iveagh Trust, and now before the Oireachtas.

Section 38 of the Bill is necessary because of a doubt as to whether under the existing law—Section 14 of the 1867 Act—the Commissioners may direct the trustees of a charity, whom they may authorise to sell, exchange or lease the charity land, to pay the moneys arising from the transaction to the Commissioners, so that they may be invested by the Commissioners for the benefit of the charity. The Commissioners have power to give directions for the due investment of the moneys, but they consider that it should be made clear that in an appropriate case they shall also have power to invest the moneys themselves for the benefit of the charity.

Section 44 proposes to give the Board power to order the taxation by one of the High Court Taxing Masters of a bill of costs claimed by a solicitor in respect of business conducted on behalf of a charity or charity trustees. The Board have not got this power at present but have suggested that, in the interests of charitable trusts, they should have it. The English Charity Commissioners have had a similar statutory power since 1855.

Part III of the Bill—Sections 45 to 54—contains certain miscellaneous provisions in regard to charities. With the exception of Sections 45, 46 and 54, this Part simply proposes the re-enactment of existing statutory provisions.

I have already mentioned Section 45, and I shall now examine it at some length. The section is concerned with imperfect trusts. These are trusts which at present fail because the objects include both charitable and non-charitable objects. A usual type of case is where property is given for a charitable purpose linked disjunctively with a non-charitable purpose, such as "for charitable or benevolent purposes". The inclusion of secondary objects which are not charitable, or the use, even in association with the word "charitable", of words such as "public" or "benevolent", in the form "charitable or public" or "charitable or benevolent", will prevent the trust from being a charitable trust, and the trust becomes completely void.

The Scottish courts have taken a different and more sensible view than the courts in England and Ireland. In Scotland, a conjunction of the words "charitable" and "benevolent" does not impair the peculiar virtues of the word "charitable" and in a case in 1947 one of the Scottish judges simply treated the words as synonymous. This problem was raised in an acute form in England by reason of three leading cases decided by the British Courts in the 1940s. These were the Diplock (No. 1), the Oxford Group and the Ellis cases.

In Diplock, a case in 1944, a testator left the residue of his estate— more than £250,000—"for such charitable or benevolent object or objects" in England as his trustees and executors should in their absolute discretion select. It was held, following a number of previous decisions, that, "benevolent" being wider than "charitable", the executors were entitled to apply the fund outside the sphere of charity. The bequest was not entitled to the privilege, enjoyed only by charities, of exemption from the rule that the objects of a trust must be precisely defined. It was, therefore, void for uncertainty.

In Oxford Group, a case in 1949, it was held that the Oxford Group, a registered limited company, was not entitled to exemption from income tax as a body established for charitable purposes only, because certain of its subsidiary objects were not strictly charitable.

In Ellis—also a 1949 case—land was conveyed to trustees on trust to permit the erection of buildings suitable for a Catholic Church or Catholic school, or for use “generally in such manner for the promotion and aiding of the work of the Roman Catholic Church in the district... as the trustees with the consent of the Bishop may prescribe”. It was held that the words I have quoted enlarged the scope of the trust beyond exclusively charitable purposes, and, accordingly, that the trustees could not successfully claim exemption from tax.

Trusts similar to those concerned in Oxford Group and Ellis had, before these cases were decided, been generally considered to be valid charitable trusts. The British Nathan Committee, which reported in 1952, recommended that such trusts should be validated provided the trust instruments were in existence on December 31st, 1950, and provided they passed certain tests. The Committee could not reach a unanimous conclusion on the question of validating future imperfect trust instruments and concluded that the existing law should apply to such instruments.

In 1954, the British Parliament enacted the Charitable Trusts (Validation) Act, 1954, and a similar Act was enacted in the Six Counties in the same year. The 1954 Act provides that any imperfect trust provision contained in an instrument taking effect before 16th December, 1952, the date on which the British Government policy on the matter was announced, shall have, and be deemed to have had, effect—

(a) as respects the period before the commencement of the Act, as if the whole of the declared objects were charitable; and

(b) as respects the period after that commencement as if the provision had required the property to be held or applied for the declared objects in so far only as they authorise use for charitable purposes.

The matter came up for review again in the Six Counties when the Newark Committee was considering the law of charities. Despite the Nathan Committee's conclusion that future imperfect trust instruments should not be provided for by legislation, Professor Newark's Committee recommended that existing legislation in Australia— Victoria and New South Wales—and New Zealand should be followed, and that no trust shall be held to be invalid by reason that some non-charitable and invalid purpose as well as some charitable purpose is, or could be deemed to be, included in the purposes to which the trust fund might be applied. This recommendation is, however, subject to the proviso — not found in Australian or new Zealand legislation —that the court shall have power to approve the application of some part, or the whole, of the funds to the charitable purposes.

Section 45 of the Bill is modelled on the Australian and New Zealand legislation but it is so drafted as to ensure, as far as possible, that it will be reasonably and liberally interpreted. In Victoria and New Zealand, the tendency has been for the courts to construe the relevant legislation narrowly. In a case in New Zealand, in 1950, it was held that a gift "to the trustees of the Church of Christ, Wanganui, to help in any good work" did not come within the relevant statutory provision on the ground that the provision applies only to cases where the creator of the trust had provided a means of severance, where, for instance, by using the word "benevolent" he allows the court to omit that word or strike it out and thus to employ what is called the blue-pencil technique.

This decision has been severely criticised as being a far too narrow interpretation in that it prevents the validation of trusts—which have obviously charitable purposes but which include non-charitable purposes by implication—merely because the charitable and non-charitable objects are not mentioned separately or because a testator has not used a word which, by itself, would be upheld as charitable so as to allow the trust to be severed.

Last year, the New South Wales section was the subject of an appeal to the Judical Committee of the British Privy Council. The Committee in a liberal and reasonable interpretation of the section held that it applied not only where a testator had expressly indicated alternative purposes, the one charitable and the other non-charitable or not necessarily charitable, but applied also where the gift was for a purpose, described in a composite expression, embracing both charitable and non-charitable purposes. The section would, in the opinion of the Committee, apply where the gift was for an object so predominantly charitable— such as an order of nuns—that a charitable intention on the part of the testator could fairly be assumed, or for, say, benevolent purposes, which connoted charitable as well as non-charitable purposes.

The Government do not favour the Newark Committee recommendation that the court should be allowed to sever a mixed trust so as to empower the court to apply the whole or part of the funds to charitable purposes. The recommendation suffers from the defect that there are no principles to guide the Court as to when or how it should sever. The Newark Committee were conscious of this defect but pointed out that the instrument creating the trust would be before the court and much may—and I emphasise "may"—they said, depend on the exact terms of the instrument. However, leaving the matter to the Court can only make for uncertainty and also for expense in ascertaining the intentions of a donor or testator.

The object of any change in the law should be to validate for charity what was obviously intended to be for charitable purposes in the popular sense of that expression. Allowing the court to sever could benefit relatives whom a testator had no intention of benefiting or for whom he had otherwise amply provided in his will. In favour of the Australian and New Zealand legislation is the fact that, though the solution does not take account of the testator's intention—in so far as that intention can be ascertained at all in such cases—there is a greater benefit to the public at large.

Section 45 of the Bill will mean that the courts will no longer find themselves in the unhappy position of feeling compelled to invalidate what were obviously intended to be charitable bequests purely on the ground that proper technical words were not used by a philanthropic donor or testator. In Ireland, a number of cases have come before the courts involving trusts with mixed charitable and non-charitable objects and they all illustrate the rule that where a trustee has an absolute power of selection between the objects the gift will fail. This rule was cited with approval in the decision of the Supreme Court in the 1935 case to which I referred at the beginning of my speech. The extraordinary result of the rule has been well illustrated by the former English Lord Chief Justice when he said in the Court of Appeal, Diplock's Case:

"For myself, owing perhaps to the fact that I was not brought up in this branch of the law, I cannot feel any enthusiasm for this rule. Indeed, when I find a rule which says that if property is left to trustees to give to charitable and benevolent purposes, that is good, but if it is for charitable or benevolent purposes, it is not, I regard it with some distaste. That was described by the Master of the Rolls in the recent case of In re Horrocks as a trap into which the unskilled draughtsman not infrequently falls. For myself I cannot have any doubt that the draughtsman in this case fell into a trap, because it is obvious that Mr. Diplock's intention was to leave the money to charity in the popular sense of the term, and had it been pointed out to him when he said: ‘I want to leave it to charitable or benevolent objects,’“well, if you use those words the money will not go to charity but to your first cousins once removed” (of whose existence he himself probably did not know) then, provided Mr. Diplock was of sound mind and memory and understanding, there is not the least doubt in the world that he would have said: “Cut out the word ‘benevolent’.” The fact that I do not regard this rule with the respect that one should ever pay to long existing rules is neither here nor there, and the cases oblige me to hold that this gift is void.”

Mixed trusts may fail because either (1) the testator has left the choice of objects to his executors or trustees or (2) the non-charitable objects of his bounty are not ascertained or ascertainable. Except in the case of a charitable bequest, a man must make his own will: he cannot leave it to his executors or trustees or to the court to make it for him. In the case of a charity, provided that there is a clear charitable intent even though the testator does not use the word ‘charity,' it does not matter if the objects are not particularly defined; and the general charitable intention will be carried into effect by means of a scheme framed by the court or by the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests. A charitable trust will be executed for a testator on the basis that there is a legal conception of what is charitable; but a so-called benevolent trust is too vague and there is no legal conception of what is benevolent.

Moreover, the State, in the person of the Attorney General, as parens patriae taking all charities under its protection, is in a position to enforce a charitable trust. If there be no specified charitable beneficiary who can come to the court to have the trust performed, the Attorney General may appear and is entitled to insist on the trust being carried out by a scheme cy-prés. It is only where the trustees have a discretion to apply the trust fund to a charitable purpose or to a non-charitable and indefinite purpose—so that they may apply it to one purpose to the exclusion of the other—that the trust will fail.

In the leading case on the subject in 1804, the matter was put as follows:

"The question is not whether the trustee may not apply it upon purposes strictly charitable, but whether he is bound so to apply it."

It is at this type of case that Section 45 of the Bill is aimed. Where the trustees have a discretion to apportion between charitable objects and non-charitable objects—whether definite and ascertainable or not—the trust will not fail if there is a clear intention to devote some part of the fund to the charitable objects to that the executor is not free to apply the fund to one purpose to the exclusion of the other or others.

If the trustees do not apportion, the Court will apportion and, if it appears impractical to fix the proportions, the fund will be apportioned equally. However, if it is found that the bequest is void or illegal in so far as the share apportioned to a non-charitable object is concerned because, for example, the object is indefinite or a gift to it offends the rule against perpetuities, the part apportioned to that object will go to the next-of-kin as on an intestacy.

It should be noted that where there is a general overriding trust for charitable purposes, the trust is good, though some of the particular purposes to which the fund may be applied are not strictly charitable or though one of two alternative modes of application is invalid. In such cases, the court will give effect to the general charitable trust but the trustees are restricted from applying the fund to the purposes or in the manner which, are objectionable. Section 45 of the Bill will not affect these cases nor will it affect cases where there is at present apportionment; but, it will affect cases where there is a choice left to the trustees such as cases of gifts for "charitable or benevolent" purposes.

A gift for a "charitable and benevolent” purpose is a good charitable gift under the present law because “benevolent” is read conjunctively, as meaning both benevolent and charitable, so that the gift is one to such benevolent objects as are charitable or such charitable objects as are benevolent, charity in either way predominating. It should be pointed out that the use of “and” instead of “or” is not conclusive in every case. Where a complex form of words is used such as “benevolent, charitable and religious” the gift may be void. It depends on the language and the intention of the donor whether the word “and” or “or” is to be read conjunctively or disjunctively, which comes back to the suggestion I made earlier that donors and testators should eschew the use of elaborate language.

As well as the "charitable or benevolent” case, Section 45 will cover the gift to a religious Order simpliciter or a gift “for the purposes of a religious Order”. The section will validate as charitable such gifts in any case where it might be held that the purposes of the Order are mixed purposes, some charitable and some not. The law as to these orders is not free from doubt; and I am not to be taken as saying that a gift to a particular religious Order or for the purposes of a particular Order is not a valid charitable gift. That is a matter for the Supreme Court to determine in respect of the particular Order. Nevertheless, the Bill saves the courts the trouble of having to decide future cases where the purposes of a religious Order might be held to be mixed purposes, some charitable and some non-charitable, and where there is not what I have called an overriding trust for charitable purposes.

Subsection (2) of Section 45 proposes that subsection (1) shall not apply in the case of any instrument taking effect before 1st January of this year, or in the case of an instrument, the terms of which provide for apportionment between the charitable and the non-charitable objects. I have already explained the apportionment cases. In these cases there is no criticism of the existing law, and we do not propose to interfere with what is a perfectly valid bequest to a charitable object and also to a non-charitable object. The law is settled in this type of case and no particular difficulty arises.

As regards the limitation of Section 45 to instruments taking effect on or after 1st January of this year, I should like to say that this aspect was carefully considered by the Government. In fixing a particular date, account had to be taken of the rights of next-of-kin. Where an imperfect trust provision in a testamentary gift causes the gift to fail completely, the property goes in the ordinary way to the next-of-kin or residuary legatee. Where the imperfect trust provision causes the gift to fail as a charitable gift, but as an ordinary gift, the beneficiary has to pay succession or legacy duty.

A charitable devise or bequest, in so far as the property is applicable for charitable purposes in Ireland, that is, the whole 32 Counties, escapes legacy and succession duty. However, the gift is liable to estate duty. If the property is real estate, the estate duty is a charge on the gift itself. If the property is personalty, the estate duty is a testamentary expense payable out of the residuary estate. It is, of course, always possible for a testator to provide that estate duty on real estate shall be paid out of the residuary estate.

Subsection (3) of Section 45 is designed to cover a case where a tax or duty has already been paid to the Revenue Commissioners between 1st January last and the date this Bill was circulated. The tax or duty will not be liable to be repaid. Furthermore, anything done or any determination made during that period, in connection with the administration of property comprised in any gift coming within the section, will not be invalidated. The idea is not to upset or interfere with things properly done under existing law in respect of a particular gift coming within the section. In so far as possible, we must avoid tampering with rights lawfully acquired.

Section 46 is designed to save for charity a gift for a grave, tomb or memorial. It proposes that such a gift shall be deemed to be charitable, provided it does not exceed, in the case of income, £60 a year and, in the case of capital, £1,000. Under existing law, gifts for the upkeep of a grave, tomb or memorial inside a church are charitable as being connected with the fabric of the church, and thus as being for the advancement of religion. However, gifts for graves, vaults or tombs outside a church are not charitable, and, if they provide for perpetual upkeep, they will be void as offending the rule against perpetuities, that is to say, the rule that nobody may tie up his property indefinitely—the permitted period being that of a life or lives in being and 21 years thereafter.

Charitable trusts are exempt from this rule. In the case of non-charitable trusts for the upkeep of graves or tombs, it would appear—although the law is not free from doubt—that, if the capital is not tied so that both the income and the capital may be used within the 21 years or, if there is no provision as to income, so that the capital may be used within the 21 years, the trust will be a valid trust; but it will be subject to taxation, such as legacy duty and income tax, from which charitable trusts are exempt.

We can see no real reason for distinguishing between a gift to keep in repair a grave in a church and a gift to keep in repair a grave in the ground around a church or in a graveyard elsewhere. Section 46 will succeed in giving practical effect to what has been described as one of the oldest sentiments of the human race, namely, the feeling widely and deeply held that one's last resting place should be decently marked and suitably maintained.

Similar proposals to that contained in the section were made, in England, in the Fourth Report (1956) of the Lord Chancellor's Committee on the Rule against Perpetuities and, in the Six Counties, in the Report (1958) of the Newark Charity Committee. In the English Report, the proposal is to validate gifts for graves as ordinary gifts, though not as charitable gifts.

Section 54, which was inserted in the Bill at the suggestion of the Glover Committee, following recommendations by successive local government auditors, authorises the Commissioners to pay into their general account, out of the income of the Embezzled Charity Recovery Fund, the sum of £17 13s. 5d., being the amount of a deficit which has appeared in their annual accounts since 1873. It is not known how this deficit originated, but the Commissioners consider it desirable to clear it off their accounts. I doubt if there can be any objection to this. The Embezzled Charity Fund is an old fund handed down to the present Commissioners to provide for the recovery of embezzled charities. It is now used as a grant-in-aid for the Vote of the Office of the Commissioners.

Finally, I come to the Schedule to the Bill, which lists for repeal a number of enactments dealing with charities. In the main, the repeal of these enactments is consequential on the provisions of the Bill. However, I desire to draw the attention of the House to certain of the provisions of the 1844 Act which are being repealed, but which are not being repeated in the Bill. These provisions are Sections 15, 16, 17 and 18 of that Act. I shall discuss Section 16 in a moment. Sections 15, 17 and 18 impose certain disabilities on Catholics and Catholic religious Orders, in so far as charitable bequests are concerned. In the opinion of the Glover Committee, these provisions were repealed by the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and by the Constitution. "If they are not," said the Committee, "they ought to be." We entirely agree.

Section 16 of the 1844 Act provides that a gift of land for charitable purposes is ineffective if made within three months of the donor's death. The section was referred to by the Commissioners in their observations on the Glover Committee Report, and they recommended that it should not be re-enacted until the advisability of doing so had received the most careful consideration. The Government are satisfied that the section should be repealed and not re-enacted. It was originally designed to prevent improvident gifts by those who knew they were about to die. It is peculiar to Ireland, and has led to an amount of difficulty.

A decision in 1865 that the section also invalidates gifts of money arising from the proceeds of land has been followed over the years. It was specifically approved of by the Supreme Court in the 1935 case I have previously mentioned, although it was argued on behalf of the Attorney General in that case that the decision was erroneous in principle. The position in regard to the Section has become absurd by reason of the fact that a well-recognised conveyancing device—the so-called "O'Hagan clause"—allows any properly advised donor to defeat the section.

In the foreword to Dr. Vincent Delany's recent work on the law of charities in Ireland, Mr. Justice Kingsmill Moore, who is a Commissioner, said that "no living man can justify the retention of Section 16 of the 1844 Act". We are aware that there are solid arguments for restricting the disposal of his property by a testator at the expense of close relatives, and this whether or not the disposal is made in fear of death. However, we cannot see any reason for a law which allows a person, whose property consists of stocks and shares, to give it all to charity at any time before death, but which does not allow a person to give land or the proceeds thereof to charity, if the donation, devise or bequest is made within the arbitrary period of three months prior to his death.

The Newark Committee in the Six Counties has recommended the repeal of Section 16 of the 1844 Act. It has already been repealed there in its application to hospitals. The section in the 1844 Act was based on a more comprehensive and restrictive provision in an old Act of 1736, which applied to England but not to Scotland and which was repealed in 1888.

Under the English Mortmain and Charitable Uses Act, 1891, which did not apply to Scotland or Ireland, land willed to a charity must be sold, unless it is required for actual occupation for the purposes of the charity and not as an investment; but there is no restriction in England on willing land to a charity. In the English Charities Act, 1960, enacted in July of this year, the 1891 Act has been repealed as well as all other statutory provisions dealing with mortmain. The statutory provisions governing mortmain in this country were repealed by the Mortmain (Repeal of Enactments) Act, 1954.

I am afraid I found it necessary to speak at some length on this Bill. It is in many respects a highly technical measure, and I trust I have, in what I have said, gone some way to clarify its complexities. The law of charities is by no means an easy subject. For this reason, I have had to explain in more detail than would normally be necessary certain of the changes the Bill proposes to make. Reform of the law generally requires an explanation of its history and background in order to appreciate and, if necessary, to criticise what is proposed.

In preparing this Bill, the Charity Commissioners, who have, of course, a long and valuable experience in the field, have been of considerable assistance, and I should like to take this opportunity to thank them, and their secretary, for their help. Dr. Vincent Delany, of the Law School of the Queens University of Belfast, also helped us. Dr. Delany, who is a well recognised authority on the law of charities, was a member of Professor Newark's Committee in Belfast. His views on various aspects of the existing law were always readily available to us. We are greatly indebted to him.

Since this Bill was published, the Commissioners have made some further suggestions for the amendment of the law. They are, at present, considering the cy-près doctrine, and we hope to have definitive proposals from them in the near future. Cy-près, like other aspects of charity law, is rather technical, and I do not propose to go into it in any detail on this Stage.

I recommed the Bill to the House. I hope that the explanatory side-notes have been helpful to Deputies in following the provisions of the Bill.

With reservations on a few minor points, I welcome the very late arrival of this legislation into the House. I hope Deputies who have listened to the Parliamentary Secretary will read with greater interest and give more attention to the history the gave of all this. It starts in the year 1953. A resolution was adopted that a committee should be established to deal with the law relating to charitable donations. In 1954, the Government of that time authorised the Minister for Justice to have a Bill drafted to substitute for the existing common law concept of charity a more satisfactory definition. In 1960, we get a piece of legislation which avoids that direction by having no definition. The rest of the authorisation was to consolidate the statute law in relation to charities and to move for leave to introduce legislation in Dáil Éireann.

I speak subject to correction but I think I am right in saying that all that is in this Bill was originally drafted by at least the autumn of 1956. The recommendations were there; the acceptance of the various Departments of Government was given to many parts of it; and the legislation was held up for one purpose only and that was to get a good definition of what constituted a charity or a charitable use. Apparently since 1956, the time has been spent avoiding a definition and the conclusion which has now been reached in the winter of 1960 is not to define it at all, to leave it to the uncertainty and what I regard as the unsatisfactory state of the law as produced through some decided cases.

After reading this, Deputies will begin to realise the difficulty there is for any Government in trying to deal with legislation, particularly legislation amending old-type legislation. The opposition to new definitions of charity was mainly put forward by the Revenue Commissioners, that is to say, those who were interested in the revenue derived from incomes and estate duty, and of course there was opposition from the Valuation Office. It appears to me that again they have won a victory. They have persuaded the Government not to accept one or other of the many definitions of charity which have been suggested for consideration and which have always met with objection from these two sources. The Parliamentary Secretary acknowledges that in what he has read:

On the revenue side, objection was taken to certain aspects of the definition and also to an amended definition that would not apply for rating purposes. In view of the difficulties of obtaining a definition more or less acceptable to the various interests involved, the present Government were satisfied that it would be better to drop the idea of a definition in the present Bill.

I am curious about the phrase "acceptable to the various interests involved".

The only interests that have been spoken of are the interests that were in opposition, that is, the Revenue side and the Valuation side. I presume that is what "the various interests involved" means, those two sources. In any event, this has been given in to now and after announcing the abandonment of any effort to get a proper definition, the Parliamentary Secretary goes on to say that the difficulty in this country was caused in respect of the well-known case of Gilmour and Coats, that that was not followed in this country. It was not followed and the judgment that is referred to is the previous judgment of the late Judge Gavan Duffy in respect of a particular Order.

It must be remembered these are only High Court decisions open to challenge at a later stage in the Supreme Court, and the rest of the text of the Minister's speech says that the Supreme Court has from time to time taken a view in respect of charities which was not in conformity with what the late Judge Dixon decided in the case to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred. The Parliamentary Secretary gives his opinion for what it is worth. I am not sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will boast of any particular legal affiliation but his opinion is that he finds it hard to imagine that the reasoning in the case, that is to say, in the Gilmour and Coats case to the effect that contemplative Orders do not confer any public benefit, could be accepted ultimately in this country as sound or valid.

I remember the time when the case referred to was before the late Judge Dixon and I may say that there were many days of anxiety passed before the judgment in that case came. The judge realised that he was, so to speak, breaking new ground and I think the phrase he used then was that in his judgment, he was happy to find that common sense and the law for once seemed to agree. That was an individual judge's point of view in a High Court judgment and it stands until it may be challenged in a law case in a higher court.

I should like the Parliamentary Secretary at a later stage to bring before the House the two or three definitions of charity. There were many of them but they resolved themselves into two or three real proposals for a concise definition of a charity or charitable uses. I should like, for the enlightenment of the Dáil, and, through the Dáil, for the education of the public, some indication to be given as to what these definitions were and the reasons for them, apart from Revenue and Valuation reasons.

The Parliamentary Secretary, following on what I have quoted, said:

Indeed, as the history of gifts for Masses in each country shows, the law of charitable trusts in Ireland has over the years tended to be different from what it has been in England.

Of course, it has. The whole fight with regard to charities has been that there was a religious bias against certain forms of charitable bequests in this country. It took many years of argument in the courts and with devices like the O'Hagan clause to get round the particular point of view held by judges who were, one would not say, sympathetic with testators who left money in different ways.

I want to know where we are now. The Parliamentary Secretary founds a good deal on the quotations from a committee in Northern Ireland and from a committee in England. They have their problems. They do not look at this matter of charities in the way we do. It is quite wrong to put before this House these phrases. It is all very well over there because the courts have the view of the people. Here the courts have not always had the view of the people. It is doubtful whether in charitable matters they will not still find themselves bound by precedents established in the bad days.

There are certain matters I should ask the Parliamentary Secretary to cover comprehensively when replying. Is there anything in this proposed legislation which was not reported on by the Commissioners? I take it for granted that these were all matters that were reported on favourably by the committee or by the Commissioners themselves. There are not very many new things in this proposed legislation. It is, in the main, a consolidating matter with certain improvements. One of the biggest improvements is Section 45 to which the Parliamentary Secretary devoted most of his time.

I said I welcomed the legislation with certain reservations. There are certain minor matters, but before I go on to deal with these minor matters, I want so say that I gather that this is not to be the last piece of legislation on charities.

Long and all as this legislation has been delayed, it is a far way from settling the law of charities. I make those remarks because the Parliamentary Secretary said:

Unfortunately, however, bequests continue to be drafted in terms which leave their validity, either as charitable bequests or as ordinary bequests open to doubt.

In the next phrase, he says:

and we are satisfied that something ought to be done by legislation to cover certain of these cases.

I take that to mean something more than what the present legislation brings forward. In any event, at the end of his statement, he said that the Commissioners were again considering the matter of cy-prés. That means this Bill is to be somewhat delayed and, I would hope, in order to see what the Commissioners' views are on the matter. This legislation was brought under consideration in 1954 and now it is brought in in 1960. The Parliamentary Secretary says that all he can do after remedying certain things is to advise taking some care with the form of bequests.

Finally, we get a lecture from the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to the misconception which arises from the peculiar view which the courts have taken from time to time on the meaning of the word "and" as opposed to the word "or". Again, the Parliamentary Secretary recommends that testators should really be more careful in their language and should not go in for complicated forms. All these matters might have been better dealt with if a definition had been put into this legislation to make clear what this House intended to be considered as a charitable purpose.

With regard to the details, there are very few I wish to discuss. I welcome Section 7 which replaces the old section. It says that the Board shall consist of not more than eleven members. Again, it should be remembered that that replaces the old-time legislation where the enactment was that the Board should consist of three people and ten others but not more than 13, of whom five and not more than five could be Roman Catholics. We are at last getting rid of what was a remnant of the 1844 period.

In Section 13, there is a repeal of something that is in the 1867 Act— something I want to question at this time as to whether it should be considered. Section 13 is to the effect that a judge of any court shall not be prevented or disabled by reason solely of his being a member of the Board from hearing and determining any case relating to a charity or any case arising under this Act, but may hear and determine it as if he were not a member of the Board. Section 25 enables the Board to give a direction with regard to legal proceedings so that such legal proceedings may be instituted. In other words, the Board gets power to institute legal proceedings in respect of any matter relating to charity. Section 26 proposes that the Board may certify in writing to the Attorney-General that the case is one fit for proceedings. Thereupon, after consideration, the Attorney General may institute proceedings as he considers fit.

If one joins these two sections together, it means that if there is a judge on the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests—and there is one at the moment; there used to be three who were ex-officio members—and he gets the Attorney General to institute proceedings, in these days it is being enacted that he may determine the case which he himself has helped to institute or got the Attorney General to institute. I think that is a proviso one should get rid of. I do not think it is proper that a member of the Board who is given authority to get proceedings instituted should himself officiate in respect of proceedings which he has instituted in that way.

Again, in Section 14, there is a re-enactment of an old provision. Section 14 is the section which provides for the audit of the accounts. The auditor will be appointed by the Minister for Local Government. When an audit takes place, according to subsection (4), paragraph (d), it is intended to reinstate the old position.

If anybody goes before such an auditor and is examined on oath and if he wilfully makes any false statement, he shall be deemed guilty of perjury. That, I think, is taken from the old Act. I think the very wording is the same, but I should like to have it re-examined, because surely it is essential for the crime of perjury that whatever is stated falsely must be material to the proceedings, and that is not stated here? It is also good law that it is not necessary that a thing should be false in order to have it a perjured statement. If I understand the old Act properly, and it can be applied here, perjury is committed by a person who, sworn in judicial proceedings, makes a statement material to the proceedings which he knows to be false or does not believe to be true. A person can believe something to be true and not be guilty of perjury, and I do not know why this critical matter has slipped in in this easy way, that a person who makes any statement on oath before the auditor "shall be deemed guilty of perjury."

I think I have said it before, but I shall repeat it now, that I know this is taken from the old law. That phrase, I think, is copied verbatim, but a better view should be had of this when we are instituting these auditors and when it may be the situation that a person shall be deemed guilty of perjury.

In Section 20, where there is power to grant exemption from the obligation to publish advertisements, I do not know whether it is done deliberately or not, but the phrase that comes from the 1871 Act is slightly changed. As the section remains at the moment, it reads "having regard to the amount of any charitable devise or bequest...exempt any person," but the old Act contains the words "small amount". Whether the word "small" has been deliberately dropped or not, I do not know, but I should like to know why it has been left out.

I have already referred to Sections 25 and 26 but in these days when the Attorney General is given a certain position under the Constitution, I am questioning whether it is wise to have Section 25 brought into the legislation at all. It is a re-enactment of the first part of the section in the 1867 Act. These two sections are joined in one part in that Act and I do not understand the necessity for having these things taken away from the control of the Attorney General. Section 26 demands his consent and Section 25 throws powers to the Board itself to institute proceedings. Section 26 would have to be amended slightly to bring the two together. As it stands, it runs:

If in any case it appears to the Board desirable that legal proceedings with respect to any charity should be instituted by the Attorney General, the Board may certify the case...

but if Section 25 were dropped and the phrase "by the Attorney General" left out, and then the rest of the paragraph given, it would bring about the situation in which the Attorney General would have the matter sent to him for consideration in every case in which it was decided to institute proceedings.

The increase, in Section 29, of the powers of the Board to frame schemes applying the cy-près doctrine to certain charitable gifts is, of course, very welcome and is one of the matters definitely recommended by the Commission. It is now an acceptance of the fact that the value of money has dropped very much. It is desirable to give the Board these powers but I want to question sub-section (4), which is said to be new. I think it is quite right to give the Board the right to apply cy-près in certain cases but sub-section (4) refers to an exception made where a scheme has been framed by order of a court and is found impracticable or unlawful to apply. There is also an adjustment to £5,000 in the value of a charitable gift and, in these circumstances, the Board is given power to revoke the scheme and frame a new scheme in its place.

One can see the reason for giving the Board power to apply cy-près, but, where a matter has already been before a court and a scheme has been framed by the court, why is it considered desirable, instead of going back to the court, to give the Commissioners powers to override the scheme already considered by the court and framed between them?

Section 32 and Section 45 are the other important sections. It gives the Board powers to invest any fund, held by them upon any charitable trust, in such manner as they desire. We are now getting away from trustee securities and all the old-time law. Indeed, we are getting very far away by the amendment suggested in subsection (3) (a), paragraph (ii) which permits the investment of charitable trust moneys in any debentures, debenture stock or guaranteed, preference or ordinary stock or shares of any industrial or commercial company incorporated in the State.

The only safeguards are that a company must be incorporated in the State, that it must maintain in the State a register of its shareholders resident in the State and that the ordinary stocks or shares are quoted on the Dublin Stock Exchange or the Cork Stock Exchange. It may be wise to do that but I think some explanation should be given by the Parliamentary Secretary as to why the ordinary shares of such companies are brought in and considered proper for the investment of charitable funds.

Section 45, which deals with the construction of gifts for mixed purposes, is very welcome. It deals with a matter which has been brought to my notice frequently and there is such conflicting laws on it in England and Wales—I have not adverted to the Scottish law—that to have the situation cleared up to the extent that it has been in Section 45 is very welcome. We are certainly getting away from the situation in which charitable gifts may be voided because something is added on to them. That is very welcome and I should like to give further consideration to that point when I have time to read what the Parliamentary Secretary said, but, from what I heard him say and what I have read of his speech in the brief interim, I think it is a very welcome section. Again, I am quite sure it was one of the matters recommended earlier by the Commissioners.

Generally speaking, and with reservations, this Bill is to be welcomed and we cannot complain of any delay involved. I hope there will not be any great delay, but, if the Commissioners are considering the whole matter of cy-près, it would be well to hold it up for a month or more to enable us to get their views on that very important matter.

In general, I welcome the provisions of this Bill and feel that the House should approve of it without any reservations. I note with considerable satisfaction that the Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out that under the Bill there is no question of religious qualification for membership for the Board of Commissioners. Possibly to provide for representation of one denomination on the Commission may have been desirable, though I am rather doubtful on that point. That this provision now is making a Board of Commissioners without any reference whatsoever to the religious beliefs of the members is a sign of growing maturity on our part for which we should all be devoutly thankful. At the same time, I think that any Government will probably keep in mind the desirability of having different religious beliefs represented on this Commission, not so much because the interests of certain religious charities should be represented by members of that particular Church as because very often a member of one Church is apt to be more strict in his literal interpretation of the law to the detriment of his own Church, rather than the reverse. The very high standard which has always been maintained by the Commissioners is partly due to the fact that it has been a mixed Commission. A person burdened with this responsibility might easily feel that he was being unduly prejudiced in favour of a charity belonging to his own Church. In such a case, it is helpful to have a member of another Church to bear the burden with him and to prevent anyone feeling he is erring on the side of being prejudiced in his own favour. On the whole, I feel that the complete elimination of any religious qualification for membership of the Commission is very sound and very much to be welcomed.

Like Deputy McGilligan, I am still somewhat dissatisfied that some progress has not been made on the question of the legal definition of the word "charity". I can quite see the difficulty which can easily arise with people like the Commissioners of Valuation, but at the same time, it is unsatisfactory that such an important matter should be left in any uncertainty whatsoever. I am glad, like Deputy McGilligan, that the Parliamentary Secretary said that the Government are not satisfied with the present position and feel something ought to be done by legislation to cover the uncertainty. It is obviously a tragedy that people are in danger, when making their wills, of inserting a provision which will defeat the purpose they had in mind, simply by reason of some technicality, although I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary and Deputy McGilligan that it is far from easy to achieve a satisfactory definition of this word. I hope that not only the Government but also the legal profession will keep this matter very much in mind in an effort to achieve certainty in this case.

I am very glad to see that Section 29 of the Bill provides for an increase in the cy-près sections in several instances, particularly in regard to the increase in respect of the total valuation from £2,000 in the event of a charity up to £5,000. On the whole, I think it is very wise that increased power and scope should be given to the Commissioners. They are people upon whom we have all come to rely from time to time in connection with matters with which we may become involved and they have set a very high standard for themselves. With that tradition built up, it is obviously wise that we should give them as wide powers as possible so that they may not be unduly restricted.

Deputy McGilligan referred to sub-section (4) of Section 29 where the Board are given powers to alter a scheme, even where it had been previously framed by order of a court. I do not know whether my interpretation of that is correct, but it would appear to me to be the intention that this provision would apply only in a case where the scheme framed by order of a court had been so framed a considerable time previously. I would feel a certain amount of anxiety if I felt that immediately after a court had heard a case, considered it and framed an order, it might immediately afterwards be varied by the Commissioners. Possibly that matter might be clarified on a later stage of this Bill, but if that was the intention of the Government, I would feel a certain amount of anxiety. On the whole, I feel some clarification of subsection (4) is desirable.

Section 30 appears to contain a very wise provision so far as alteration in schemes under the Educational Endowment Acts are concerned. This is a matter which I know has arisen from time to time, where, due to the trend of population leaving the country areas, it has become impossible to carry out the precise terms of some educational trusts. In that regard, therefore, it is very wise that the Board should have powers which would include the power to sell the school and use the proceeds for the erection of another school or for educational work generally.

The provision for facilitating gifts of land to charity when made within three months of death also appears to be a very wise one, and I certainly applaud all efforts which are made to make the law reasonable. This was a case where the law was quite clearly unreasonable and it is good to see a critical opinion being shown by the Legislature in trying to clear up old provisions which quite clearly have now no valid reason for subsisting any longer.

The question of mixed trusts is dealt with under Section 45. That is one with which, I think, all members of the legal profession are well acquainted and which has always given a lot of trouble. Here again the Parliamentary Secretary has given his warnings as to the necessity of drafting testamentary instruments with great care, but in spite of that, some difficulty will probably continue to arise until the day dawns when we have a definite definition of the word "charity." While that definition is still undiscovered the provisions of Section 45 are just about as good as they can be.

The validation of gifts for graves to a total sum of £1,000 also appears to be one which will be welcomed by certain people. Personally I can never feel any great anxiety as to whether or not my grave will be suitably looked after but that is just another instance of my own peculiarity. It has to be generally recognised that a number of people are greatly concerned that the last resting place of their earthly remains should be clearly identified and properly maintained. In view of the fact that this is generally the feeling amongst people, it is clearly unreasonable that the law should make it impossible to carry out their wishes.

I must say I am rather surprised, as Deputy McGilligan was, in regard to the question of the Board investing. I do not follow him completely in that. I follow his surprise but I do not follow his anxiety because I feel that the whole conception of investment of trust funds is one that was due for revision in any case. The whole trend of the stock markets now is to make ordinary shares much more easily realisable and very often much more profitable. A gilt-edged investment is one which now seems to be liable to much more depreciation. I cannot feel that the Board would ever invest in the ordinary shares of a company which was in any way unsound. It is far better, if we are to trust people at all, to trust them to the maximum extent. The members of the Board will be responsible people and they will be prepared to consider an investment on the best possible advice available at the time. If it should appear to them wise to invest in an equity rather than in preference shares or gilt-edged shares, they should have that power. If they are given that power, we have to rely on them to exercise it properly.

My experience of this matter is small but from my limited knowledge I believe that this is a departure from normal practice and it is something on which I should like some further information from the Parliamentary Secretary at some stage. But if he states that his view is something the same as that which I now express, and that that is done deliberately in an effort to give more scope and more discretion to the Board in its investments for the greater benefit of the charity which it was intended to benefit, I should be very happy. I hope that it was not just put in by mistake; I am sure it was not.

In general, I feel that this Bill is a very courageous effort to deal with a very difficult matter. In so far as it defines, I think it shows progress; in so far as it has dodged the main issue as to what a charity is I must still express some regret, although I have great sympathy with the draftsmen and with the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary. I should like to express the hope that the provision of a definition will not be left aside indefinitely and that not only will it come under active consideration—and indeed, active and favourable consideration — but that somebody will actually get down to work on it.

There may even be a case for setting-up a small, mixed committee to deal with this matter because it is a matter which I feel needs considerable thought and one which any Government Department might well feel unable to deal with on its own. For that reason, I hope it might be considered that the practising members of the legal profession might be drawn into this matter and their advice sought. If it is not available at once—it may very well not be on such a complex question— at least some small group could be set up which would start work on it. Anything which makes the law more definite, simpler and more apparently reasonable, should be supported by everybody. At present, and I am afraid in the immediate future at any rate, there will be considerable doubt in the minds of many people, not only laymen but even amongst the legal profession, as to whether a certain provision which a testator wishes to insert can actually be considered to be charitable or not. Anything which may defeat the wishes of a testator should be avoided not only by the draftsmen but also where possible by the provision of the necessary legislation.

I have very little to say about a Bill which I welcome. It always strikes me as being somewhat unnecessary to speak on a Bill with which you agree. In this case, I am tempted by one or two observations which were made by Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Booth. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will resist any pressure which may be brought to bear on him to define what is charitable. I am surprised that anyone like Deputy McGilligan a practising barrister of very great ability and renown, should seek such a provision.

Very few things in this world change as much as people's conceptions of what is charitable. They changed very considerably since 1844 and I am quite sure they will go on changing. It seems to me to be much wiser to leave to the discretion of the Commissioners, and the courts where necessary, to state from time to time what is and what is not charitable. Deputy Booth went to some trouble to explain how difficult it would be for a testator or a donor to decide whether something was charitable or not. If the person who wants to leave the money does not know whether it is charitable, it will certainly be a great deal more difficult for others to decide in vacuo whether or not it is charitable. What has been done in the Bill is entirely desirable and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will resist any pressure to bring in legislation to define “charitable” precisely.

Deputy McGilligan referred to sub-section (4) of Section 29 where power is given to the Commissioners to vary a scheme prepared by a court where the charitable gift does not exceed £5,000. I do not see the difficulty. The fact that the scheme is prepared by a court does not make it any more sacrosanct than if it were prepared by the donor or testator. To my mind, sub-section (4) ties in precisely with sub-section (2) where the illegality or impracticability of a scheme prepared by a donor or testator is left to the discretion of the Commissioners up to £5,000. I cannot see why the same provision cannot be made as is made in subsection (4), that is to say, that if the scheme happens to be made by a court, I do not think the court has any more sacrosanct opinions than the testator.

There is only one other point I want to mention. Section 13 states that a judge shall not be prevented from hearing a case solely because of his being a member of the Board. I had great doubts myself about this but it seemed to me to be so technical that I could not sort it out properly. However, Deputy McGilligan was so clear on it that it does appear that a man should not be judge in his own case where he is already a member of the Board. Deputy McGilligan very clearly linked this with Section 25 and Section 26. I cannot understand the necessity for the provision in Section 13. Surely judges and commissioners are not so very rare that in the odd case that might arise, it would not be possible to avoid such a situation. If it is possible, I think it would be better to avoid what, to the layman, appears as a very odd provision, that the prosecutor should suddenly become the judge in this way.

Apart from these details, there is the element of doubt in regard to a matter which Deputy Booth found to be admirable and which I think Deputy McGilligan did not quite approve— the power to invest in ordinary shares. According to Deputy Booth, it was very easy to know of a reputable company in which it would be safe to buy shares. I should like to know how Deputy Booth works out that it is safe to invest money in a company: many people would like to know that. Many people swore by Dunlops and they got an awful shock. That sort of thing is liable to happen. There may be a perfectly good reason for this decision and I should be glad to hear what the Parliamentary Secretary has to say on it. I should be hesitant myself, unless it is possible to put in some proviso that only a certain proportion of the money be invested in such a way, unless there is some safeguard that the greater part of the funds might not disappear at some stage in some deluge. I can see the attractiveness of some provision that would give power in that respect but I think a safeguard should be put in as suggested.

Apart from those observations, not alone do I welcome the Bill, but I welcome also the way in which the observations I made before the Bill was brought in were met by the Parliamentary Secretary in the Bill and I thank him for the consideration he gave these observations. I think the Bill is a very great improvement on present law and, generally speaking, I welcome it in its entirety.

I share the concern that has been expressed by all the previous speakers in respect of Section 32 of the Bill, which empowers the Commissioners to invest funds at their disposal in the ordinary shares or stock of a commercial company operating in the State or maintaining a register in the State. I have a suspicion that Deputy Sheldon, canny northerner as he is, knows what he is talking about when he states how uneasy he is about this.

I know, of course, that, in Britain, the whole range of trustee securities has been amended to enable all trustees to investigate ordinary shares. We know, too, that what were once regarded as first-class gilt-edge securities, heretofore ranking as trustee securities, such as railways shares, have been completely discounted. No doubt there is scope for improvement in the law, but I feel that the Parliamentary Secretary in this section has gone too far. It is all very well to copy British precedents in legislation of this kind but circumstances in this country vary very much. We have not here the very wide range of investments which is available to trustees investing funds in Britain and another point that is very relevant is that with the best will in the world, the Commissioners of Charitable Bequests, considering if a commercial company is a suitable one in which to invest funds, will not have available to them, in the accounts or reports to shareholders of these companies, all the information they should have and would have if they were operating under a less archaic Companies Act than the Act of 1908. In Britain, the Act requires that a much fuller description and fuller information be given to potential investors and shareholders than is usually made available here under the 1908 Companies Act. If it were possible to implement Deputy Sheldon's suggestion and confine the ordinary stocks in which investments may be made to those which are unimpeachable, that might merit consideration, even though it is very difficult to forecast the standard that will be attained by companies.

Apart from that, the only other point which occurred to me in the brief examination I made of this Bill is one with which I think the Parliamentary Secretary will have a certain amount of sympathy. In Section 14, we have very extensive audit provisions. The duties imposed on the auditor are most onerous and I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should consider requiring the auditor to be a professionally qualified person.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on this measure. Obviously with this Bill and the Solicitors Bill which he introduced recently, he has been working very hard since he was appointed and I trust that we shall see more of the fruit of his labours in future law reform proposals.

Major de Valera

Like Deputy Sheldon, there is very little I have to say and, in fact, Deputy Sheldon made the principal point I was going to make regarding the desirability of defining charity. Frankly, I think it is impossible. I agree with Deputy Sheldon. Any attempt at definition will make the situation more uncertain, I am afraid, in the existing background of charity law in this country. We must not forget that although the Bill, and the Act when it is passed, may supersede effectively all previous legislation, there will nevertheless be a number of decisions standing. Quite a volume of law and legal opinion has been built up around this subject, which cannot easily be brushed aside. Apart from that, difficulties arise from changing circumstances. An object which would have been considered charitable—I mean in the general human sense and not the technical legal sense—say, 70 years ago, might not be considered charitable to-day, and an object which could not possibly be considered to be charitable 70 years ago might conceivably be held to be such to-day.

It is, therefore, a nice question as to where you could start to make a definition of what charity is. Synonymous words will not do, nor will they carry with them a great degree of certainty. It is one of those fields of human activity where there is so much change, and such an undefinable border, that I do not think anyone could attempt a definition. Worse still, such an attempt would be so rigid and narrow that it would defeat itself and certain points could give rise to further legal contention or ingenuity.

The provisions about gifts made in previous legislation which were overcome by the O'Hagan clause, give a pretty good example of the type of thing that happens when you legislate for intention. The Legislature clearly had a particular intention, but that intention could not stand up to the popular demand of the justice of the case and a legal formula was found.

In dealing with legislation relating to charity, there is something of the same type of difficulty as is met with in dealing with the licensing laws. There is the difficulty of enforcement, the difficulty of ascertaining the precise limits of the problem and there is, finally, the difficulty of legal formulation. You cover one up and then inadvertently either expose another or so hem it around as to create an impossible situation. Therefore, I join quite definitely with Deputy Sheldon in the view that the Parliamentary Secretary is perfectly right in presenting this Bill without an attempt at definition, that here we are dealing with something that must adapt itself to the times. It is a concept that must adapt itself to the times and it is best left to the interpretation of the moment.

Having said that, there is one other comment which can be made in this debate and it is perhaps an important one. On the question of the investment of charitable funds, I must say that when I realised that ordinary shares would be a valid investment, it came as a shock, but as soon as the first shock was over, I asked myself was my reaction that of old-fashioned prejudice. I must say I feel the Board should have the discretion to do their best and I doubt whether a limitation to a particular description or brand of investment would be altogether helpful.

On the other hand, I freely concede that if there was a lack of responsibility or too much attraction by the profit of the moment, an improvident investment might easily be made. For that reason, I wonder whether, seeing that the Board are in a sense something of the same nature as the State —a national or community entity— there might not be some method, perhaps in conjunction with the Department of Finance, of investing these funds in the State at an adequate return.

I know that could be done by investing in a national loan or in bonds issued by the Government, but it would be difficult in practice. The Board might have to wait for a favourable time of issue, or perhaps the Commissioners, when seeking an investment, would have to buy in circumstances which would compare unfavourably from a profit and perhaps a security point of view—not so much security of the actual holding but security of the value of the holding. They might have to invest in unprofitable circumstances. If they invested in a certain national loan, they might at some stage have depreciation from its par value due to some long term factor, or something like that.

I see there are difficulties and for that reason I ask myself whether it would not be possible for the Board which ought to be regarded in some sense as a State body—they certainly represent the community — to invest in the State in reasonable circumstances. I do not want to be more precise than that in any further suggestion, but I think that with regard to such a responsible body as the Board we are placing on them an onerous responsibility in the matter of investment if we tell them they are free to invest wherever they wish, while implicitly, if not explicitly, warning them that they have a duty not only to do their best but to safeguard the fund.

As I say, it is difficult to go further than that at this stage, but, nevertheless, I throw out the perhaps revolutionary suggestion that some machinery of investment in the State directly might meet the bill, if it were possible. It would be revolutionary, as I say.

I should like to join in the congratulations which have been extended to the Parliamentary Secretary. The production of this Bill must have entailed a great deal of research, effort and study back over the years from 1953. Deputy McGilligan referred to that. In England there was, I think, a commission, or some such body, early in the 1950's engaged on some similar work. As far as I know, legislation was introduced there only very recently. Here, as in England, there must have been a considerable amount of critical work involved in the preparation of this Bill, the more so as the historical background to charities here is one not altogether free from criticism. It was one of bias. At one stage, it was one of straining to effect a certain discrimination where statutory discrimination had been removed. Apart from that, there was a tradition of discrimination. That background inevitably coloured the whole development of the law of charity and in this particular instance, therefore, the Department undertaking the examination was faced with a major problem.

The Department has done a very good job as the length and complexity of the Bill show. But, after all that is said and after all the work has been done, some credit must go to the Parliamentary Secretary who introduced the Bill because it was on him and the Minister that the task of making decisions ultimately devolved. We all know how easy it is, especially if other people do it for us, to collect information for the purpose of making a study of a certain problem. All that is required then is to master that information and assimilate it. But it requires a great deal more to order it finally and take the decisions necessary for the production of a Bill in this House. That is what the Parliamentary Secretary has done here, done it in a very difficult sphere and done it, I think, very well. I should like to join with the others in paying that tribute to him.

One last remark I should like to make about cy-près. Quite obviously the powers given in Section 29 are both necessary and desirable. No one wants funds frittered away in unnecessary legal procedure or litigation. The more the board are in a position to act executively and efficiently to ensure that funds are devoted in their totality as far as possible to the object for which they were left, or some equivalent object, the better it will be. As time goes on, we can perhaps look forward to varying the limits but I certainly see no difficulty in giving such powers to the Board. I think it is a good provision.

As Deputy Sheldon said, there is very little to be said about a Bill with which one agrees generally. Everybody seems to welcome this measure. I think they must. If we are honest, we shall admit that there are very few of us who are in a position to criticise in detail all the ramifications behind this Bill. It is to be appreciated that such a substantial and useful piece of social legislation has been introduced here in such a competent fashion. Again, I join in congratulating those responsible for it.

Fianna Fáil have an incurable passion for cheap and tawdry propaganda. It is an astonishing feature that Deputy Vivion de Valera should be sent in here today to preach a homily to the House on the reason for the appointment of Deputy Haughey as Parliamentary Secretary so that, by his blood, sweat and tears, this monument of social legislation and legal reform of abundant complexity might issue forth from his powerful intellect. We all know that is all pure cod.

This Bill was drafted and considered by the previous Government, four years ago. Now Deputy de Valera is quite entitled to say to me: "If you drafted it, and considered it, then why, in the name of goodness, did you not bring it in?' Th'e answer is quite simple: because, having considered it as a Government, the Minister for Justice and the Attorney General were asked to take it back to consider whether it was possible to provide a definition of a charity. Before we left office we had not found any satisfactory definition of a charity very largely for the reasons mentioned by Deputy de Valera. As he said, there is a long history behind this.

Up to a very few years ago you could not leave money for a Mass because the British courts of the old dispensation had declared that the celebration of Mass was a superstitious and objectionable practice. If you left money for a Mass the charity was void and we had to have recourse to the viaticum clause up to the time of Mr. Justice Gavan Duffy's judgment. His judicial decision reversed a long chain of judicial decisions of the British courts and set that particular item right. We were conscious of difficulty. We were conscious of the fact that you could not get a satisfactorily comprehensive definition of a charity, a definition which would not create more problems than it was designed to solve. Apart from that, as I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will be the first to admit, this Bill was sitting in the Attorney General's Office for four years. It is purely a consolidation Bill, consolidating a long series of Charities Acts which had got into a mess because of their number and because of judicial decisions which had interpreted them down through the troubled history of this country.

There is an attempt made here in Section 46 to define a charity. It is the kind of definition which brings into the wider definition of charity one specific thing in a limited form, designed to ensure that if a person wants to leave money for a mausoleum, he can do so; but if some "dafty" leaves £100,000 to maintain his mausoleum, the Charity Commissioners will have power under the law to disregard it. If the income amounts to only £60 a year, or less than £1,000 in value, then it is a charity. If it exceeds that, it is not a charity. That is an attempt to define a charity, but it is an attempt to define it by way of exclusion and limitation rather than by a comprehensive definition—a definition which neither we in the inter-Party Government nor the present Government have been able to evolve.

I do not think Deputy de Valera does any good by his tactic here. We have argued out the case as to whether it is not a gross waste of public money to appoint a Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Justice when there is no work in that Department to justify the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary. We all know damn well it is a public scandal. But the Government are entitled to appoint Parliamentary Secretaries, if they want to, and nobody is concerned to make any personal assault on Deputy Haughey; he happened to be the person chosen. What irritates me a little is Deputy de Valera's coming in here in that bland atmosphere of innocence that I so frequently remember in his revered father. When he was up to some particularly dusty transaction, he would immediately assume the role of Robert Emmet's nephew; he would get up here and say: "Everybody trusts me". You always knew then that some particularly dirty work was on.

Deputy Vivion de Valera rambles in to say a few pious words about the Charities Bill. He is not talking about the Charities Bill at all. What Deputy Vivion de Valera is trying to say is: "We were amply justified in making Deputy Haughey Parliamentary Secretary and look at the poor fellow burdened down with this great mass of complex work which he is achieving with wonderful distinction, address and expedition". That is all cod. The decent boy is doing the best he can, floating about in his motor car and drawing a salary, which he is entitled to do, as he has been appointed by the lawful Government of this country. He is getting nothing that he is not entitled to under statute but it is all cod to pretend that his blood, sweat and tears were spent in producing this Bill. This Bill was in the Minister's office four years ago and the only contribution Fianna Fáil have made to it is that it took them four years to come to the conclusion that the definition of a charity which was being sought four years ago is not to be found. So, this Bill is thrown in for enactment by the House and it provides Deputy de Valera with his Thursday morning occasion to make a short homily, (1) to show that he does sometimes turn up here and (2) to show that he thinks the Parliamentary Secretary is the cat's pyjamas.

I want to direct the attention of the House to Section 13 of this Bill. The existing law permits by usage that if a judge is a member of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests that does not disqualify him from hearing a case in his official capacity to which the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests are a party. Apparently some doubt has arisen on that matter and Section 13 appears in this Bill for the purpose of removing the doubt but, I think, removing the doubt in the wrong way.

If a judge is a member of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests and a case came on his list for trial in which the Commissioners were a party, we would imagine, I should think, in this House, that the proper course would be for the judge to ask the Chief Justice to take whatever is the correct procedure in the High Court, to take the case out of his list and give it to another judge. Not, indeed, that it is likely that in a matter of that kind the judge would be influenced one way or another by his membership of the Commissioners but at least, as a Commissioner, he would have heard the Commissioners' side of the case argued and determined before the litigation began. Bearing in mind that one of the essentials in a free society is that justice must not only be done but must appear to be done, it would seem almost ludicrous if a judge of the High Court, who happens to be a Charity Commissioner, should proceed to adjudicate a case brought by a citizen against the Commissioners of which he himself is a member. I cannot imagine it happening but why should we by Act of Parliament invite it to happen?

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that Section 13 is quite misconceived and that we ought to leave the matter alone and either leave it in the discretion of the Chief Justice to arrange that if such a case came before the High Court it should be transferred to somebody else's list or else to state specifically in the Bill that, where a judge is a member of the Charity Commissioners, litigation in which the Commissioners were involved should not be tried by him.

I think I am right in interpreting Section 32 as relieving the Charity Commissioners of certain restrictions on their discretion to invest funds. I see the section is noted as being new. I hope Deputy de Valera, when he was sympathising with all the blood, sweat and tears of the Parliamentary Secretary, observed that as to more than 50 Sections of this Bill it is consolidating legislation. Whenever any section introduces new law there is a special note, "New." This is a new provision and, I understand, removes from the Commissioners the obligation to confine their investments to trustee securities or securities of that character. I approve that.

Of course, it is true that people must exercise the utmost care in the investment of trust funds but I inferred from what Deputy Byrne or somebody else said that placing upon trustees the obligation to confine their investments to trustee securities guaranteed the safety of the funds invested, which, of course, is quite ludicrous.

Any unfortunate possessor of a trust who has been the subject of a trust confining the trustees to trustee securities has been ruined in the course of the last 50 years whereas those whose trustees were given discretion have become greatly enriched. We have all seen recently the case of the Church Commissioners in Great Britain who got freedom from the trustee restrictions ten or fifteen years ago and, as a result of prudent investment of the funds of the Established Church of England in Great Britain, they have been able to increase the stipend of every Protestant clergyman in the Establishment and averted a desperate crisis. These men were on the verge of starvation and are now valiantly working in their vocations, on a wretchedly inadequate income still, but at least the exemption of the Commissioners of the Church of England from the obligation to continue investing exclusively in trustee funds has saved the clergymen of the Church practically from destitution.

An interesting fact is that in the investment of funds that were subject to the trustee limitation in the last 50 years, no matter what care you took the funds of the cestui qui trust were bound to dwindle and the more conservative you became the more certain was ruin to come upon your cestui qui trust. Those who went in for the non-terminable securities like the Consolidated Stock, which used to be of the nature of a conservative investment, have lost one-half or one-third of their entire capital.

It is not so long since Lord Dalton was Chancellor of the Exchequer. Issued British securities of 2½ per cent. Consolidated Stock of Great Britain stood then at 98 or 99. Today it stands at 48 or less—44—and in 15 years more than one-half of the funds then invested have simply evaporated and will never be recovered because it is highly unlikely that these irredeemable stocks will ever rise to anything like their previous level.

One must bear in mind that, no doubt, the Charity Commissioners and persons in those circumstances will remember that an investment in terminable fixed interest securities, provided they are of trustee status, that is, Government stocks or the like, guarantees the integrity of the nominal capital because, if held long enough, they are redeemed at a certain date but the retention of nominal capital values is very little consolation in a world where we are experiencing, year in year out, steady and sustained, gradual inflation and where it is becoming pretty clear that under modern social conditions in a capitalist society the maintenance of stability in social conditions requires a modest if restrained annual inflation. So that, in the new world in which we find ourselves it would be a very great hardship indeed to confine any trust to exclusive investment in fixed interest securities, even of the most conservative character, in which I would include Government and Government guaranteed fixed interest stocks.

I welcome the decision and I think I had a hand in the discussion which led up to it exonerating the Charitable Commissioners from the obligation to confine themselves to what used to be called trustee stocks. It is, of course, true that the utmost care will have to be taken to see that investments are wisely made, but the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests are not the only people in the world who are prepared to take care in the investment of their funds and I have no doubt that they will seek and get wise advice to that end.

I heard Deputy de Valera say today that he wondered should we not confine the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests to investment in Irish securities. That is a rather alluring proposal, but let us remember that a large number of these charitable gifts are for excellent purposes. Many of them are exiguous, quite small. If the Commissioners are to be released from their trustee stock obligations that operated heretofore, they should be given the widest discretion to invest funds where they can be most advantageously invested.

I do not think we ought, as a Legislature, to pronounce that for some economic purpose these funds should be directed into one particular channel of investment; (1) I do not think the funds are of sufficient dimensions to make it important to the economic life of the country as a whole; (2) I do not think there is any real scarcity of capital in the country or available to the country if we want it; and (3) I believe it might act to the detriment of prudent investment of these funds if the Commissioners are debarred in their new discretion from investing them where they think best. It is doubtful also, when we are seeking to draw capital into the country, whether it is a good plan to announce that we prohibit the investment of domestic capital abroad. On the whole, I think we will probably benefit rather than lose and I urge that if a new discretion is to be vested in the Commissioners, as I think it should, that discretion should not now be limited in such a way as that mentioned by Deputy de Valera.

All measures designed to consolidate and to simplify the existing law are good. They are very often difficult and tedious to draft and I have no doubt this Bill is no exception to the general rule. I do not believe the Parliamentary Secretary had anything to do with the drafting or the preparation of this Bill. I do not know whether he will have the spunk to stand up and say so. It will be rather confusing to Deputy de Valera if he does but that is the fact. I shall be glad to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary in relation to Section 13. He referred back to the Act of 1867, Chapter 54, Section 23, and I was not aware that the right——

The Deputy has copped on now.

I was not aware of previous statutory law.

The Deputy's original remark was that we were clearing up a doubt.

I thought it was a practice that existed but apparently it was incorporated in previous statutory law. Why is it necessary to consolidate in this instance? I think steps might have been taken to correct instead of to consolidate. Is there any Deputy in the House who thinks that a High Court Judge, sitting as a member of the Commission for Charitable Donations and Bequests, who considers pending legislation and gives the Commission the benefit of his advice as a Commissioner, should adjourn from a meeting of the Commissioners to the Bench and there hear the very case on which he has advised the commissioners and told them that in his opinion they ought to contest the action?

Before the Deputy goes too far on that track he ought to read the Section carefully.

I have read it as carefully as need be.

"By reason solely."

Does anybody here think that is desirable? Should we not all agree that the sensible way of going about this business is to say:

A Judge of any Court shall be prevented and disabled by reason solely of his being a member of the Board from hearing and determining any case relating to a charity or any case arising under this Act, and may not hear and determine it as if he were not a member of the Board.

I do not think it is the desire of the House or of any Deputy to suggest that a High Court Judge will allow his mind to be prejudiced or influenced by any ulterior matter other than what is before him but it is very necessary that justice should not only be done but be seen to be done. Therefore without making any reflection on the capacity of a Judge to hear a case, is it not much more sensible to say that "a Judge of any Court shall be prevented and disabled by reason solely of his being a member of the Board ..."?

The funny thing about the situation is that—and it often puzzles me about this House—if he were a candidate of Dáil Éireann he would be disqualified at once. If he were a member of Dáil Éireann, perish the thought that he should appear on the body. Only in the course of the last few weeks we had a piece of legislation which prevented anyone who is even a candidate from being a member of the board of directors of a State company. We have no scruple about doing that and if you say: "Why do you do that?" they say: "Oh, well, it might disedify the public if somebody in public life were associated with that." How much more disedifying to the people would it be that a judge, who had advised the Charitable Commissioners to contest an action, is not thereby disqualified from himself presiding? I think instead of consolidating, we should repeal that section of the Act of 1867. Is there any other Deputy who will say that it would be a good thing to provide that the judge should thereby be disqualified from hearing any case?

That is a different point.

If the Deputy reads the section carefully, he will find that it speaks of any case relating to charity.

Or any case arising out of this Act?

You are confining it exclusively to cases in which the Commissioners are involved.

I know, but is it not much more sensible to say that if a judge wants to be a member of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests, he cannot hear cases relating to charity and that if he wants to hear such cases, he cannot be a member of the Commissioners of Chairtable Donations and Bequests?

Major de Valera

Suppose a judge is hearing the same probate case and a case comes up as to the nature of a particular matter. The Deputy practically excludes him from being a judge at all?

A judge is never made a Commissioner but a Commissioner may become a judge.

It is a desirable thing that he should retire. Any case coming up before him in the probate division may involve questions relating to charities.

The Commissioners may not be concerned at all.

Suppose he is a Commissioner and has to determine whether the sum of £50,000 which a relative seeks to declare is left on foot of a valid charitable bequest. The judge has to determine whether it is valid or void. One has to realise that the people concerned are very often very simple people in matters of this kind. You must establish that justice is being done and that it appears to be done.

The Deputy's original argument was that he wanted to debar him from any action relating to a charity, even though the Commissioner was not involved at all but simply because he was a Commissioner.

Suppose there are probate proceedings whereunder there is a substantial sum of money—£50,000 —involved. The question is whether this is bequeathed under a valid charitable bequest or not. If it is an invalid charitable bequest, this sum will fall back into the residue of the estate to be distributed amongst the next-of-kin. If, in the middle of the proceedings, some simple countrywoman leans over and passes some remark, and if it is decided this is valid, the Commissioners get the whole thing.

Are we to legislate on the basis of what a simple countrywoman says in court?

Why not? I have got the uncomfortable feeling that the judge ought not to be a member of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests. It is reasonable to suggest that in the circumstances it would be much better for a judge not to be himself a Commissioner of Charitable Donations and Bequests. Any rational Deputy will agree with me. I do not think it is an unreasonable stipulation to say that if a man is a member of the Board and attains to judicial office, he should relinquish his position as a Commissioner of Charitable Donations and Bequests. Surely in the whole of the Irish population, some person could be found to fill his particular niche, whatever it is, and to represent whatever section of the community he is supposed to represent on the Board? It would be much more edifying if this dashing young Parliamentary Secretary, who is supposed to be so lively in his approach to this legislation, looked at Section 13 instead of clinging to every word, letter and section to demonstrate his capacity to defend his brief in the Dáil. He might, perhaps, discover something in relation to the legislation of 1867. The world has changed considerably since. You have vast methods of communication and a far wider dissemination of news.

That has nothing to do with it.

These things come more to the knowledge of the people.

It has lasted for 100 years with no complaint.

Is that not a lovely comment from a young Lochinvar come out of the West? A tired Government is a Tory Government. That seems to me the breath of the poor Tory soul of the Fianna Fáil Party. It lasted for 100 years.

Without complaint.

Without complaint. Can you not leave it the way it is? Sin has existed since the world began but the world is no better off for its survival. If it is wrong now, the fact that it has been wrong for 100 years does not make it any the better.

Surely some ill-effects would have shown up during the course of 100 years, if it had been wrong?

How many times has it been availed of? How many judges have availed of it?

It has been——

A High Court judge?

A judge of a superior court.

That is as good an answer as any that can be made, but I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary has the slightest ground for making it. It is a bad arrangement. I do not know if probate matters ever came before him or not.

At one time there were a number of judges.

It is a thoroughly bad arrangement.

Major de Valera

Is the Board itself not something in the nature of a judicial body?

If you spend 15 or 20 years at the work of the charitable commissioners, and presuming the work was well done, would you not say it would give a man a certain prejudice in favour of the public charities which he had in some degree helped to administer?

Major de Valera

Of course the same must hold if you have, say, funds in court. To some extent, the courts act administratively in that sense and the only argument I am putting to the Deputy is that this is something in the nature of a judicial body and, though I shall grant him the psychological factors are there, they are everywhere and you cannot get away completely from that. It is not the same thing as a business board.

Suppose I go into court——

So little does the Leader of the Opposition know about the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests that he spoke earlier about their contesting actions, which they do not.

Not directly, but surely indirectly?

Neither directly nor indirectly.

Surely their function is to determine whether a public charity is being administered properly or not?

They do not contest actions.

Suppose I go into court and seek to upset a bequest for charity, with the object of getting funds to convert to my own use, and I find the judge before whom I am arguing is himself a Commissioner of Charitable Donations and Bequests, do you think that is a satisfactory situation?

Then the ordinary etiquette of the Judiciary would obtain. The judge would then decide whether he should sit or not in the particular case.

What would he decide? We think he would almost certainly decide not to sit, so why in the name of Providence not say it?

Major de Valera

You are coming there into the wider thing, that the judge is trying a probate action and, incidentally, a question arises as to whether a bequest is charitable or not. Under that section, he can do so.

I think you are arguing powerfully for the proposition.

Major de Valera

Now we are getting into a Committee Stage discussion and this is the Second Stage.

We can return to it on Committee Stage. All I want to say is that it seems to me that the provision of the Act of 1867 is unsound and it would be in the public interest to better the matter if a Commissioner on attaining judicial position retired from the Commission.

The Deputy is mending his hand as he goes along.

I do not know what you mean by mending my hand. I said it before—I object to judges——

At first, you thought this was a new provision and I had to direct your attention to the fact that it was in the 1867 Act.

I said I understood the existing law arose from practice rather than statute. I now know there is statutory law for present practice. I think I pointed out that it would be better to reject that statutory provision in the 1867 Act. I do not believe that a judge of the Supreme Court, or of any court, should continue to act as a Commissioner of Charitable Donations and Bequests. In fact, when one comes to examine the matter, the only effective way of avoiding the evils I see in the system which it is sought to re-enact is to provide that if a person becomes a High Court judge, or a judge of any court, he should cease to be a Commissioner of Charitable Donations and Bequests. I do not think that will involve any hardship and it may avoid much misunderstanding and much undesirable practice.

First of all, I should like to deal with the suggestion that there has been inordinate delay in bringing this Bill before the House. I agree that a considerable time has elapsed since it was first introduced, but I should like to direct the attention of the House to the position obtaining in Great Britain where the resources for doing this sort of thing are much greater than we have at our disposal. The Nathan Committee reported in 1952 in England but they did not succeed in passing their Charities Act there until 1960 so that, if you view our performance against that background, I think it is not altogether discreditable.

I have been criticised by Deputy McGilligan and the Leader of the Opposition in that I took the 1954 Bill and more or less re-introduced it. Deputy Dillon spoke about the fact that it was one of the problems which they could not get around to solving and, at this point, I might be tempted to remark that it is only one of the very many problems which that Government never got around to solving. Be that as it may——

I do not blame the Parliamentary Secretary for making the best riposte he can.

I must point out that by far the most important provisions in this Bill were not in the 1954 Bill at all. I refer particularly to the provisions about mixed trusts, to the provision about graves and tombs and, indeed, to the subject on which Deputy Dillon has waxed so eloquent, the provision as to the investment of trust funds. When these major provisions are taken into account, the House will realise that this criticism that we are merely repeating the 1954 Bill is unfair.

There has been a very great deal of talk about the fact that we have not succeeded in getting a definition of charity. Deputy McGilligan was quite critical of us in that regard but again I could point out that between 1954 and 1957, he, wonderful legal expert that he is and justifiably recognised to be, was unable to procure a satisfactory definition. Indeed, I am in full agreement with Deputy Sheldon when he says that the inclusion of a definition should not be the be-all and end-all of our policy as to charities. It would be an excellent achievement if we could get a comprehensive and satisfactory definition, but we have failed. I think we have failed because such a thing cannot be done. Having failed to get an all-embracing definition, the Government decided that it was better to have no definition rather than a limited and unsatisfactory one.

My point about people falling into drafting traps was referred to by Deputy McGilligan. There are two aspects of this. It is very desirable to avoid traps into which draftsmen may fall but, if we had an unsatisfactory definition, might there not be far more numerous traps than there are at the moment? The question of a definition is one which has engaged the attention of all those concerned with this Bill. I should have no hesitation, if I could have got a good definition, in including it. In the meantime, in the absence of a definition, we are pursuing the best possible course by removing any anomalies in the existing situation. In the absence of a definition, we are validating mixed trusts and making provision with regard to graves and tombs.

Deputy Dillon, when arguing that there was nothing new in this Bill that was not in the 1954 Bill, carefully steered away from Section 45, though he mentioned Section 46.

I was Minister for Agriculture—not Attorney General.

If there is nothing new in this Bill, it would be interesting to hear the Deputy's views on what exactly is the significance of Sections 32, 45 and 46.

In the interval, between now and the resumed discussion, the Parliamentary Secretary might read Section 27 of the Bill and see where he made a mistake a minute ago when he said that the Board did not take any part in actions. It is in his own Bill.

Debate is adjourned.

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