Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Bill, 1960—Report Stage.

Minister for Health (Mr. MacEntee)

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, to insert the following section before Section 6:

"6.—(1) It shall be the duty of the Minister to arrange from time to time for such surveys as appear to him to be desirable to be made as respects the health, or any particular aspect of the health, of persons, or of particular classes of persons, in the functional area of a health authority in relation to whom regulations under Section 2 of this Act are in force.

(2) A survey under this section may be arranged through the health authority or their officers or through such other organisation or body as the Minister considers appropriate.

(3) The Minister shall cause to be presented to each House of the Oireachtas a report on a survey made under this section but such report shall not include any information in respect of any identifiable person.

(4) Any information in relation to the health of individuals which is obtained in the course of a survey under this section shall be treated in a confidential manner.

(5) Nothing in this section shall be construed as imposing an obligation on any person to submit himself or any person for whom he is responsible to examination."

On amendment No. 9 on the Committee Stage I promised that I would see what I could do to meet the wishes of those responsible for the amendment. The amendment I have now moved gives effect to that undertaking. It represents the furthest I can find it practicable to go. I think it will be effective from the point of view of those who are anxious that the effects of fluoridation upon particular classes or upon the general health of the community will be kept under survey. I am proceeding to do that by imposing on the Minister, who makes regulations under Section 2, the duty of arranging for surveys to be made from time to time in relation to the health, or particular aspects of the health, of persons, or classes of persons, in the area of a health authority upon whom has been imposed the duty of fluoridating its water supply. This proposal will enable any Deputy who wishes to be informed in the matter, if he is dissatisfied with the manner in which the Minister is performing that duty, to call the attention of the House to the fact either by putting down a Parliamentary Question or, if he wishes to go further putting down a motion to censure the Minister for his failure to fulfil this duty. It gives every Deputy, therefore, a Parliamentary right which will ensure that the House will be kept informed as to any untoward development which might take place in the functional area of a health authority, the water supply of which is being fluoridized. In saying that I wish it to be quite clear that I have no apprehensions whatever on this score and I do not think that there is any reason to have, but I put the amendment down to meet the views expressed by some Deputies on the benches opposite.

Mr. Ryan

I believe it was worth while suffering the horns, cloven hooves and tail with which the Minister adorned me on other stages of this Bill, seeing that he has now gone so far in meeting the reasonable objections of those of us who are opposed to fluoridation of water supplies. I share with the Minister the hope that the medical examination of our people who have fluoridated water supplies imposed on them will not disclose any damaging consequences to the health of our people. We all share that hope, and nobody more strongly than those who are opposed to this Bill in its totality.

It is a good thing that the Minister will allow these surveys to take place. It occurs to me, however, that medical caution might have gone a little further. A local survey, such as the Minister has in mind, might only disclose some infinitesimal fractional increase in a particular disease and it might be difficult to relate it to the intake of fluorine. Would the Minister consider whether or not it would be desirable, to impose an obligation on medical men who discover damaging effects to report those to the Department of Health in the same way as they are obliged to disclose communicable and dangerous diseases? It is only by building up case histories of fluorine poisoning that we shall be able to get the proper degree of caution in relation to this mass medication.

The Minister's hopes and beliefs are not universally shared. The Minister must be well aware of that. I doubt if he has introduced this amendment merely for the purpose of obliging the members of the Opposition, for that would be contrary to his nature. I believe he is well aware that a substantial body of reputable scientists and medical men have found cause for considerable anxiety.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That may not be argued on this amendment. The Deputy must address his remarks to the amendment which deals specifically with the duty of the Minister in respect of health surveys.

Mr. Ryan

I am advancing arguments as to the desirability of accepting the Minister's amendment. I repeat that there is a large body of medical opinion which believes fluorine intake may be damaging to the system. I ask the Minister to go a little further than this amendment and provide for reports to be made in all cases in which there is evidence of damage to the human system by flourine intake.

Mr. Corish

I should like to ask the Minister a few questions on subsection (2). The subsection provides:

A survey under this section may be arranged through the health authority or their officers or through such other organisation or body as the Minister considers appropriate.

Would the Minister give an example of the type of body or organisation he has in mind? If the Minister nominates a body to carry out this survey will he give an assurance now to the House that he will consult the health authority? I presume it is the health authority which will have to pay for the survey if it is undertaken by an outside body or organisation.

Mr. Dillon

Before the Minister concludes, I should like to ask him what is the purpose of the question which stands on the Order Paper today?

Mr. MacEntee

Wait and see.

Mr. Dillon

I do not propose to wait and see. In view of the gesture which the Minister has made, as a result of the discussion that has taken place, that this business be left to local option, it fills me with alarm when Deputy Dr. Browne enters into the fray to tell us that our teeth are now to be examined——

Dr. Browne

I am only asking for information.

Mr. Dillon

——for their molybdenum content. What will happen is that as we reach our majority we will all dash to the nearest dentist and ask him to take out all our teeth and have done with the whole business, because the possession of teeth is now becoming a public liability.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is travelling away from the amendment.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister for Health is bringing in a most elaborate amendment for which Deputy Ryan has expressed appreciation and which extends the power for carrying out a service on our unfortunate fangs not only to the local authorities but to anybody else whom the Minister agrees to authorise. Deputy Dr. Browne says that not only are the fangs to be examined for the incidence of caries or of fluoride but also molybdenum. This gift of the possession of teeth will soon become a public liability and anybody who has a tooth is liable to be subjected by the local authority or anybody the Minister authorises to a general inquisition as to whether he has molybdenum in his teeth, fluoride, calcium and I suppose enamel.

Mr. Norton

A mining engineer would probably be required to survey for the molybdenum.

Mr. Dillon

I suggest there are dangers here inherent. Deputy Ryan was quite astonished to discover the Minister in this conciliatory mood in meeting suggestions made by Deputy Ryan in connection with certain proposals originally enshrined in the Bill. It is a tribute to commonsense that people try to meet one another half way and I postpone to the Fifth Stage of the Bill a more ample reference to the fundamental principle which divides us in regard to this Bill.

While this amendment goes some way to meet the points raised by Deputy Ryan and others, it does not of course meet the fundamental issue as to whether we should have fluoridation at ail. While acknowledging that this amendment goes some way to meet the points raised, we shall reserve for the Fifth Stage elaboration of the fundamental question.

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry that the Leader of the Opposition should have misunderstood the purport of the amendment. This amendment does not propose, and will not enable the Minister, to institute a survey to see whether the teeth of the people of this country are rich in fluorine, calcium, molybdenum or any other mineral. Deputy Norton may rest assured, therefore, that it will not be necessary for any local authority to engage a mining engineer to ascertain that.

Mr. Norton

That is a relief.

Mr. MacEntee

This amendment is related to one thing only. It imposes a duty on the Minister to arrange from time to time for such services as appear to him to be desirable for the health of the people in any area where the water supply is being fluoridated. The amendment is, I think—I am going to throw a bouquet at myself—a tribute to my desire to approach this question objectively and, since we are fluoridating the water supply here, to institute such an examination of the effects of that fluoridation upon the health of our people as may succeed in convincing the world at large, at least the civilised world, that the apprehensions which Deputy Ryan has voiced here are without foundation, and so that other people may be enabled to share the benefit of this great inhibitor of what is one of the fundamental causes of ill health.

It is all very well for the Leader of the Opposition to talk about aching teeth, but if the Leader of the Opposition would throw his mind back, say, to 40 years ago and remember the suffering which he endured at that time he will appreciate the position of hundreds of thousands of children in this country who are suffering similarly.

That is only the lightest aspect of this matter. There is the established fact that much of the ill-health from which our people suffer is due to dental caries and if we can protect the children of this nation, against the effects of dental decay we are introducing what will be the fundamental element in building up the health of future generations. That is why I attach so much importance to this Bill. It is not a fad of mine. I gave the matter exhaustive study.

Mr. Ryan

On a point of order, I am sure the Minister would like a fair debate and I would respectfully suggest that his remarks are not related to the amendment before the House.

Mr. MacEntee

I am replying to what has been said.

Mr. Norton

It is a Second Reading speech.

Mr. MacEntee

I am entitled to reply to the debate on this amendment and there is no time limit. I was saying it was because I recognise the importance of fluoridation as an inhibitor of dental decay, as a protective measure for the future health of this generation, that I am bringing in the amendment. It is not because Deputy Ryan described fluoridation as poisoning the water. It is not because of the absurd arguments he used here that this is being brought in. It is because I feel it will serve a great public purpose here and that it will be of great advantage as well to people elsewhere.

I hope that, having now made the Minister for Health of the day, whoever he may be, amenable to this House in a particular way for the discharge of the particular duties to be carried out under the Bill the public mind will be at rest.

Mr. Corish

Would the Minister answer my query?

Mr. MacEntee

Sorry. The purpose of that subsection is clear on the face of it. In my view the most appropriate authority in this country would be the Medical Research Council. If we were to employ the officers of health authorities, we might have the same sort of allegation that they were not impartial and were subject to Ministerial control. If the Medical Research Council cannot undertake it and if it is felt that an organisation with less immediate contacts with this State should be employed for the purpose, we can go to the World Health Organisation or whatever organisation is likely, in my view, to produce an impartial, objective, scientific survey of this problem.

Bill, as amended, received for final consideration.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1960