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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 1960

Vol. 185 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Military Pensions Legislation—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
In view of the facts that a large number of persons at present in receipt of Military Service Pensions receive less than £1 per week, that the services of these people played no small part in the foundation of the State and that their numbers are now appreciably reduced by the effluxion of time, Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the past services of these people should be more generously recognised and calls upon the Government to introduce forthwith amending legislation to ensure a reasonable standard of living for them in their declining years.— (Deputy Tierney.)

There is very little I want to add to what has been said and to what I have already said in support of this motion. That section of our community which has to rely on military service pensions is a section to whch the State owes a great deal. It is a section which has not had in recent years the measure of recognition it ought to have had from the authorities. We recognise these people as requiring a measure of assistance but we have closed our eyes to the fact that the assistance given in the past has been consistently minimised and reduced by the rising cost of living. It is worthy of note that in the last few days it has become apparent that, under the present Administration, the cost of living has risen by four points in the past twelve months. If we take 1957 as an example, the impact of the consistently rising cost of living, due to Government policy, has reduced the real value of pensions and has increased the burden which people in receipt of such assistance have to bear.

Deputy Tierney's motion pinpoints a very real grievance suffered by a needy section of the community, a section to which both the House and the State owe a duty. It is only reasonable now that the Government should be asked to introduce forthwith amending legislation to ensure to these people a reasonable standard of living. I suggest the proper course would be to tie the measure of assistance thought appropriate to the changes in money values brought about by the cost of living. If an increase of £1 or 30/- is thought desirable now it should be tied to the present cost of living so that, if the cost of living continues to rise, as presumably it will until the present Government is put out of office, pensions will be adjusted pro rata. If, of course, there should be a fall in the cost of living, pensions will have to suffer an adjustment accordingly. In these terms, I support the motion proposed by Deputy Tierney.

Aontaim go h-iomlán leis an dtairiscint seo. Mothaím go mbeidh an Dáil buíoch don Teachta Ó Tighearnaigh a thug an rud seo fé díospóireacht. Cuireadh fáilte roimh an dtairiscint ó gach taobh den Tigh agus is cómhartha é sin go bhfuiltear toilteanach rud éigin do dhéanamh ar son na bhfear a dhein a gcuid go fonnmhar chun saoirse na h-Éireann a bhaint amach. Tá sé de dhualgas ar an Aire agus ar an Rialtas anois iarracht a dhéanamh chun teacht i gcabhair ar na fir atá i bpráinn anois.

I sympathise with this motion. Those people who got trifling pensions years ago are needier to-day than they have ever been. The numbers are gradually diminishing, but age is increasing the hardships on those who survive. It is time that there was a revision of the law relating to pensions.

My main purpose in speaking on this motion is to bring one case to the notice of the Minister. A friend of mine has been in Saint Bricin's hospital since last June. He was wounded in 1920 or 1921 while serving with the column in North Tipperary. Because he was on the run, there was no possibility of his getting the medical and hospital treatment he should have got. In 1922 he joined the Army. After serving for a few months he was forced to leave because of physical incapacity. Ever since, year after year, he has been up for treatment for boils which break all over his system. His entire constitution was affected by the wound in his foot.

Under the regulations he is precluded from a full disability pension. There is not a doctor in the country who would not certify him as fully incapacitated. Under the regulations he is precluded from benefit. He was the breadwinner of his family. His livelihood was completely cut off. In a case like that there surely should be more generous treatment from the State he helped to create.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but, on a point of order, this motion deals with military service pensions and not with the type of pension Deputy Manley speaks of.

I do not want to put the Chair in an awkward position but I wanted to bring that fact to the notice of the Minister and once I have done that I am satisfied.

First of all I think it is my duty to thank the various Deputies on all sides of the House who supported this motion. I may say that, with the possible exception of one Deputy, they gave me credit for bringing the motion into this House with the intention of trying to remedy a wrong that has been done to a section of our own people down through the years. I can honestly say that I have dealt with a large number of these grievances and complaints from people representing the Old I.R.A. and I am glad to see Deputies from both sides of the House stand up here, trying to force the Government to do justice to the people who made it possible for me and for everybody else here to represent the Irish people in an Irish Parliament.

I had no political motive or aim in putting down this motion. I thought that by putting it down in one name only nobody could say that it was brought in for a political motive. I am very glad that the majority of the Deputies here have recognised that and have spoken in favour of giving an increase to the people for whom I speak. Many Deputies are under the impression that because so many Old I.R.A. men are in such poor circumstances they qualify for the special allowances and that there is no need to give them any further consideration. I confined the wording of my motion so that it related only to the lower grades, the people who are getting less than £1 a week. A number of Deputies will be surprised to learn that a big number of Old I.R.A. men are drawing 2/7d., 3/6d. and 5/6d. a week.

I must congratulate those who gave the first increase to the Old I.R.A. They gave the people in receipt of less than £100 a year an increase of 50 per cent. The present Government gave them increases of 6 per cent. and 11 per cent., so that from the Pensions Act of 1934 to the present day these people have got a total increase of 61 per cent.

Any person reading that a section of the community had got an increase of 61 per cent. would assume that they were not doing too badly but the majority of the people for whom I speak are drawing roughly about £10 a year. That is worth about £3.14.0. at the present time. In reply to a Parliamentary Question put down last week, the Minister for Finance stated that £1 in actual cash was now worth 7/5d. The increases that have been given to those Old I.R.A. men have brought the £10 pension up to £16.10.0. a year, the cash value of which is now £6.3.9d. Instead of bringing up the pension of the people who made it possible for this House to function, we have reduced them as compared with the amount first given to them when the pensions were voted in 1924 and 1934.

I was amazed at the Minister's reply to my statement in moving the motion that the people who did not apply for a military service pension until 1934 did not qualify under the 1934 Act. I am not saying that the Minister was deliberately misleading the House but I want to make it quite clear that the vast majority of Old I.R.A. men who took the Republican side and did not apply under the 1924 Act were not qualified under the 1934 Act.

Because they could not.

But when the Minister's predecessor brought in the 1934 Act, he deliberately excluded his own people from qualifying under the 1924 Act. I want that down on the records of the House. The Minister at that time, by one stroke of the pen, could have qualified the men who then applied under the 1934 Act.

People who took the Republican side were not qualified under the 1924 Act. The Deputy has said that I misled the House about this but the fact is that one had to have service in the Free State Army to qualify under the 1924 Act.

What Deputy Tierney is saying is that your predecessor could have used the 1934 Act to give them the benefit of the 1924 Act.

A stroke of the pen does not collect 10 years' money in one year.

That is another argument.

I think the Minister misunderstands me again. I know they did not qualify under the 1924 Act.

That is what I told the Deputy.

Very well. But was it not within the power of the Minister who drafted the 1934 Act to make these people qualify under the 1924 Act?

He could have made the 1934 Act retrospective.

But he did not. He deliberately did not include his own group of people who did not apply or did not qualify, whichever way the Minister wants to put it, until 1934. However, it was quite within the then Minister's power and it is within this Minister's power to qualify those people. The figures in this respect are very small but these people have lost the benefit of 10 years, not due to the present Minister but to his predecessor.

I must give credit to the Minister who introduced these special allowances which have helped and are helping many needy Old I.R.A. men, but I wonder does the Minister really understand what a person has to do to qualify for a special allowance. To qualify for a special allowance an Old I.R.A. man holding a medal, bar or certificate, let him be one of the best this country ever produced, must prove that he is destitute; he must get a medical certificate to show that he is incapable of doing any work for at least twelve months.

If he is under 70.

Yes. While I praise the introduction of the special allowance, there are so many strings attached to it that it is degrading for an Old I.R.A. man to have to apply for it. These special allowances have relieved a great deal of hardship. I have heard Deputies say here that there were no Old I.R.A. men in bad circumstances, that none of them was in county homes. Someone made the mistake of using the phrase "poor house". We have no poor houses; we have the same houses but we call them county homes and we have quite a few Old I.R.A. men in these places. Not so long ago a 1916 man died in St. Kevin's in very poor circumstances. I believe that this special allowance was brought in to help such people.

I am making this case on behalf of the people who made it possible for each and every one of us to sit in this House. The Minister should accept this motion because even though the necessity for the operation of the Army Service Pensions Act is diminishing there are still people drawing benefit under it. Most of the surviving Old I.R.A. men are now well over 70 and even the Fianna would be over 60. Taking the law of averages I believe in ten years' time the cost to the State in respect of these people will be very small.

I tabled this motion as a non-Party one and I was gratified to see that in the main it has been treated as such. I gathered from the Minister for Defence that he did not want this motion pressed to a division. Why he should take this line I cannot understand. When a motion is put before the House it is generally to test the feeling of the House on a particular matter. This can only be done effectively by a vote. Almost everyone who has spoken has supported the motion to some degree. Some cavilled at the wording be offered no amendment.

If I receive from the Minister an assurance that he proposes to accept the terms of this motion in full or in a form acceptable to these people on whose behalf I have spoken, I am prepared to withdraw it. Failing that, I propose to put the question to the House and have the result recorded in the Official Report. Thus the members of Dáil Éireann will indicate by their votes whether they have been giving lip service to these people or not. Those who do not take part in the Division 1 will safely leave to the sound judgment of the electorate who will be called upon in the near future to pass judgment on their activities over the last few years.

Question put:
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 37; Níl, 68.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Keneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kyne and McAuliffe; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman.
Question declared lost.
Motion No. 29 not moved.
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