May I point out that the time remaining to the Minister in possession is 25 minutes and the time remaining for debate on the motion is two hours and 15 minutes?
Private Members' Business. - Development of Arigna Mines— Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That in view of the insecurity of employment at the Arigna mines and the failure of private enterprise to fully develop them and so provide a stable industry, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that steps should be taken by the Government for the fullest utilisation of the resources of these mines under the auspices of Bord na Móna or of a separate semi-State body."—(Deputies McQuillan and Browne.)
This motion suggests that one solution of the problem of providing a market for the Arigna coal mines is that of nationalisation. As I had very little opportunity for speaking on the previous occasion, I thought fit to give a brief account of the position of the mines as they are today and the problems connected therewith. The coal deposits of the Arigna Mountains consist of friable semi-bituminous coal, 17 per cent. volatiles, of comparatively high ash content. Most of the coal is either mined as, or becomes eventually, 70 per cent. slack and as a result is more useful for industry than for domestic purposes.
The coal consists of two main types: a main crop of coal whose ash content varies from 18 to 26 per cent. the seams being situated to the west of Lough Allen and forming 80 per cent. of all production. Of this coal it is reckoned that there are one and a quarter million tons in reserve. Found elsewhere is what is known as crow coal whose ash content tends to be very high, 45 per cent. and more in a great many cases. Certain tracts of this coal have an ash content of 18 per cent. to 35 per cent. and it is this type of coal which forms the remainder of the production, mainly, 20 per cent. of the total production from the Arigna mines. This coal is difficult to extract. The seams vary in thickness and in depth and in quality and there is considerable risk attached to the exploitation of crow coal because the sale is dependent on the ash content which in the ordinary way is at the 18 per cent. to 35 per cent. level rather than the higher level of 45 per cent. and over.
There are six mines in Arigna and in the outlying districts of counties Leitrim, Roscommon and Sligo and there are three very small owners. Recently a mining company was registered, Connaught Collieries, to exploit the mineral rights of some 500 acres at Barrenmeenagh, County Leitrim. They intend mining about 15,000 tons of coal per year and employing 70 men. I have not had any recent reports as to whether they have commenced activities.
The number of men on the books of the existing mining companies was 423 in 1958; 413 in 1959 and 404 in June 1960. The number of men on the books does not enable me to say how many are actually employed on a shift basis and what the general employment is, but it does give an indication, generally speaking, of the employment position in that the men who are on the books of the company are, in general, in employment. That indicates that although the mines have been going through a very difficult period, the number of men on the books has not greatly decreased.
The total imports of coal into this country are 1¼ million tons. In relation to that, we can note the production of the two main coal areas. The production of anthracite in the south midlands area was 120,000 tons in 1938 and 200,000 tons in a recent year. The production of coal from the Arigna area was 20,000 tons in 1938; in 1956, it was 60,000 tons. There was an intermediate year when it rose to 80,000 tons. In 1959, it was 64,000 tons and I have not got the figures for 1960.
So much by way of general information on the Arigna mines. Surplus production of coal in a number of areas has pushed prices down everywhere in the world and the increasing use of electricity and oil for certain industrial and domestic purposes has aggravated the position here. The position was also affected by imports of coal from the United States, Poland and Germany and all coalminers have had to face a very difficult position and an intensely competitive market. Despite the severe competition experienced by the Arigna mines, it is absolutely true to say that they are now in a stronger position than ever before, because, in October, 1958, the Electricity Supply Board's steam station at Arigna was commissioned and that station takes 45,000 tons of coal per year; it is capable of using 45,000 tons of coal per year and that is two-thirds of the total production. That places the district in a far more secure position if one considers the total production at Arigna and the total amount immediately absorbed by the steam station.
Deputy McQuillan suggested that the nature of the contract between the E.S.B. and the Arigna colliery had something questionable about it. Therefore I want to read a statement by the E.S.B. stating their policy.
"The size and consequently the cost of the station at Arigna was determined on the basis of information given to the Board by the Geological Office in regard to the total quantities of coal available. The station life was fixed at 25 years and the cost was approximately £1,000,000.
Having regard to a capital expenditure of this size, the Board had to make forward contract arrangements to ensure steady annual supplies for 25 years. With the exception of Arigna Collieries Ltd., all other producers were relatively small and at the time could give no guarantee of quantity over such a long period; they did not wish to be tied to one purchaser if market conditions for their coal improved. The normal designed consumption for the station for a 25 year life was 45,000 tons per annum and Arigna Collieries Ltd., was prepared to confine its produce to the Board and to enter into a contract to supply a minimum of 35,000 tons per annum over the lifetime of the station. This contract ensured reasonable running and protected the Board's capital investment. The remaining tonnage is being supplied by other producers in the area.
I think that it is a reasonable explanation of the continuity of the contracts made and it seems to me that it is essential to the life of the station.
The E.S.B. also purchase certain quantities of coal for the Ringsend station in Dublin. The use of Arigna coal in that station is completely uneconomic. It operates at lower efficiency. Oil has to be used in order to ensure that the coal can be burned and there is a very much higher maintenance associated with the various parts of the installation as a result of using it. The purchase of that coal by the E.S.B., together with the coal purchased for the Arigna power station, constitutes five-sixths of the total production of the Arigna mines.
Coal and turf are fighting a competitive battle with other fuels at present and, as the House surely knows, it is impossible for us under the Anglo-Irish Agreement to impose a tariff on coal. So far as the recent renewal of the Anglo-Irish trade relations is concerned, it has been made evident that, in return for the access we have to the British market for our cattle and agricultural produce and for many industrial products, there can be no tariff imposed upon coal imports. It is not possible to impose a duty to forward the interests of either the anthracite mines or Arigna, nor is it possible for me to make the use of Arigna coal compulsory.
Frequently, my Department has communicated with State bodies and, through the Minister for Local Government, with local authority institutions and we have done our best to persuade them to use Arigna coal. Reference has been made to the use of Arigna coal by Cement Ltd. That is not a State company; it exports cement at highly competitive prices. I understand the Board are willing to pay economic prices, based on calorific value for Irish produced coal and it is a matter for the colliery owners to decide whether they can accept the prices suggested to them by the company and which the company say are fair and equitable.
Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann has also been mentioned. That company purchases anthracite, not Arigna coal, although it did purchase Arigna coal formerly. In present circumstances, if they were to start purchasing Arigna coal, they would have to substitute that coal for anthracite and there would be no purpose in so doing.
Recently, I asked the Arigna Collieries to form an association to work together for the common purpose of increasing production and securing better sales and I understand there is a new association called the "Western Colliery Owners' Association". I welcome the formation of that body because it will assist in the exploration which is now taking place and to which I shall refer.
Recently, the Government made available £150,000 for the exploration of the Leinster and Connaught coal-fields. By arrangement with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, contracts to bore up to 14,000 feet in County Leitrim have been entered into—I think the work will be completed in January, 1962—in order to find out what seams of main coal and crow coal can be found in the area which are capable of economic exploitation. At the same time, an investigation is being conducted into ways and means of securing better cleaning, preparation and burning of Arigna coal. We are trying to find out whether it is possible in some way to separate the coal from the non-burnable material or whether it is possible to burn coal with a high ash content in some new type of furnace.
These investigations are not complete. I am not very optimistic in regard to them, but I can assure the House that everything is being done to discover whether this coal can be burned or processed in a better way. If, as a result of these two types of investigation, sufficient reserves of burnable coal can be found in Leitrim, consideration will be given to the erection of a second Electricity Supply Board station. It would be unwise obviously to initiate a new station, unless the company would be reasonably certain of a real continuity of supply of the right kind of coal for burning in the station. Equally, it is important to ensure that if coal of a high ash content has to be used, some economic method of burning it will be found.
I have indicated that we are doing all we can in the circumstances. I can see no justification for the nationalisation of this industry. If the coal is there, if it is of the right type, and if there is a market, I believe private enterprise will succeed better than any nationalised enterprise.
Will succeed or has succeeded?
Private enterprise will succeed. I said. Most of the difficulties raised by Deputy McQuillan and by those interested in preserving this very valuable employment in Leitrim and Roscommon would not be eliminated by the formation of a State company to exploit the deposits. A State company could not compel the E.S.B. to buy unsuitable coal. It could not persuade Cement Ltd., to increase its costs of production. I do not believe a State company could find markets any more successfully than the private producer. In no circumstances would we agree to a subsidy being available for the sale or marketing of Arigna coal. Bord na Móna is having to face very severe competition in the sale of its briquettes. If a State company were formed, there could be no change in regard to protection. Under the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement, it is impossible to impose a duty on imported coal. That situation would not alter.
I have already indicated the best type of State intervention. If exploration of the coal seams proves successful, if the technical investigation into the preparation, processing and burning of the coal produces good results, that will be State action. If, as a result of that, it is found wise to establish a second station to absorb greater quantities of Arigna coal, that station will be erected by the E.S.B., after the matter has been considered by the Government in the usual way as part of the programme. A State company will be entering into the production of electricity, using Arigna coal. Under two heads, therefore, the State is already playing a part. If all goes well, a State company will pay a further part as a result of the exploration and technical examination carried out.
I do not think there is anything more I can say. We have gone into this matter very thoroughly. When I last met some of the colliery owners, they seemed reasonably satisfied that the most practicable course was the one which I have outlined, namely, examination of the coal deposits and examination of the technical problems surrounding the burning of this particularly difficult type of coal.
It is one of the remarkable chances of political life here in this Republic that one of the most politically conservative Ministers should find himself in executive control of the one Department which has almost complete control over our publicly-owned concerns. It must create for the Minister a very severe strain on his sense of responsibility to the people that he should continue to operate as Minister in control of a series of great industries systematised as publicly-owned or nationalised industries. It is an almost inexplicable enigma of our political life. It is a puzzling experience to listen to the Minister for Transport and Power here and abroad telling his listening public of the remarkable achievements of our nationalised or publicly-owned concerns. He is, of course, quite right to talk about the remarkable achievements of Bord na Móna, the E.S.B., Aer Lingus, Irish Steel Holdings, Irish Shipping, and even C.I.E. under its present management.
The motion deals with the Arigna coal mines and their development. I cannot see how the Deputy can roam over all the other public bodies.
In spite of the Minister's remarkable approbation of, admiration for, and pride in all these nationalised industries, we find him here this evening, replying to this motion, stating that private enterprise will succeed better than nationalisation. He can see no justification for nationalisation. In view of the facts, facts with which the Minister is more conversant than anybody else, how can be maintain that this industry should remain as a complete anachronism, controlled by private enterprise? It is just one remaining power segment of our power and transport economy. How can the Minister argue that it should continue to exist outside the ambit of responsibility in regard to the power and transport concerns over which he, as Minister, exercises control? It is absurd to have these mines other than under the control of some public concern.
The Minister says that private enterprise will succeed better, despite all the evidence to the contrary. He made no effort to discuss the insecurity of employment to which specific reference is made in the motion and which is inseparable from this private enterprise type of set-up. We believe this coal mine should be brought under the control of the Minister. We believe that not only would the industry be better run, but the employees would have greater security of employment and better conditions of working than they presently enjoy. I do not think that even the most conservative Minister for Transport and Power would make the claim, for instance, that it would be better to hand back C.I.E. to private enterprise. I do not think he would make the claim that our bus services, or transport services generally, were better operated under private enterprise. I do not think he would make the claim that the average lorry driver is better off under private enterprise, with his insecurity of employment, very often defective equipment, indifferent protective clothing, lack of pension rights and sickness benefits whereas workers employed by industries such as C.I.E., operated on behalf of the public, have no such disadvantages.
Whether you look at it from the point of view of the efficiency of our transport services or from the point of view of the employees, there can be no comparison between the operation of private enterprise transport services and publicly-owned transport services. That is true also of Aer Lingus, the E.S.B., Irish Steel Holdings and Irish Shipping. I do not think anybody can deny that the man employed by any of these companies is infinitely better off. He has security of employment, magnificent conditions of service, pension rights and sickness benefit. Through trade union activity, admittedly, he is in a situation in most of these publicly-owned bodies which he would not change for private enterprise in any circumstances.
Every one of these publicly-owned concerns was commenced simply because private enterprise had failed to operate them efficiently. They had failed to provide continuity of satisfactory employment, security of employment, good conditions in retirement and in sickness and good conditions from the point of view of the type of equipment supplied and its maintenance. In addition to all that, these services are infinitely more efficiently and competently run than they were under private enterprise. If the Minister honestly believes that private enterprise, as he said, will succeed better than nationalisation, he has a responsibility to the Government and to the people to come in here and say: "I do not think these different concerns over which I have accepted control and which I now know and understand very intimately are being efficiently run and we should hand them all back to private enterprise. Private enterprise will succeed better than nationalisation and we will have better shipping services, better air services and the steel industry, which was privately run at one time, will be better run and the employees will be better off than they are with C.I.E. and the other State companies."
I do not think the Minister seriously believes that. I am surprised at a person like the Minister, who has a reputation for believing what he says even if he does not always say what he believes, making a statement like that which is so palpably and demonstrably untrue in fact. I do not think there is any case at all for the continuation of this small coalmining industry outside these other great transport and fuel industries. There is no doubt about it: this one could be carried within these other industries, integrated into them, kept going and protected from the shocks bound to come to a small industry like this, surrounded by British, Polish and American coal. It could be absorbed into a unified transport and power authority and an outlet could be found for all the products of these mines.
The case is made by the Minister that we cannot cut the importation of British coal under the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement, that we cannot restrict it in any way or impose tariffs on it. That may be true but the restriction of British imports is not the only way in which we can increase the market for home-mined coal. It is quite clear that as long as Polish, American and British coal is coming into this country, there is a market which could be developed for the home-mined coal. It is a complete admission of failure and defeat for the Minister to say we cannot stop the British coming in. We can see that coal mined in Leitrim and North Roscommon is made available in the country at prices competitive with coal coming from Britain, from Poland and even all the way across the Atlantic from America.
Surely the reason that has not been done is that the mines are not being competently and efficiently run? They are being run by a small group whose only interest is to create enough wealth for themselves and their families. That is all permissible under our capitalist society and private enterprise attitude to exploitation of industry; but from the point of view of the country and the employee, that does not mean and has not meant that you got substained exploitation of the raw material in the ground. It is a bit late in the day now for the Minister so say his Department is to have a geological survey carried out to see whether there are greater resources of coal there and, if there are, that this company will be encouraged to mine them. This State has been established 40 years now. What would we say if Bord na Móna came along and said they proposed to examine the possibility of making peat briquettes or thought it would be a good idea to consider the question of generating stations running on milled peat? These advances have already been made under a publicly-owned company. Bord na Móna is a live company. It is a magnificent enterprise and has well proved its worth.
I do not agree with the Minister that turf is engaged in a death struggle with coal. I think turf has virtually won the battle. The vast majority of people now accept turf, particularly the briquette type, as being far superior to coal. That has not been achieved because Bord na Móna sat back and sent a horse and cart around from house to house, as used to be done in the old days, with 6/- or 7/- worth of wet turf, badly cut from the top of the bog. It was because this publicly-owned company sat down and appointed scientists, technologists and technocrats of different kinds to devise ways in which it would be possible to meet modern demands. As a result, we now have this very difficult-to-mine fuel, turf, being cleanly and efficiently burned in small flats in cities like Dublin, Cork and Limerick, and people are delighted to use it.
It was because of a positive effort by Bord na Móna to see how they could make the best appeal to the consumer that it was possible to provide this magnificent fuel, turf, as peat briquettes. We now have this quite remarkable achievement—and goodness knows, it is not often I talk about achievements of the various Governments of this country over the past 40 years—this striking and magnificent achievement that we are now selling peat briquettes in Britain. That was inconceivable, and it is a great tribute to the minds of the people and the politicians who had the enterprise in their earlier and more radical days to set up this publicly-owned company and to take a chance on it.
The Minister's attitude is that private enterprise will succeed better than nationalisation, but it was clear that private enterprise was not succeeding in developing our bogs. Private enterprise provided turf which could be used in the country all right but they did not provide a fuel which could be used in the small, overcrowded city flats. They did not make the best use of our raw materials. They did not provide the optimum or the best possible conditions for employees on the bogs, and politicians at that time decided they would entrust the development to a publicly-owned company. They were justified in their beliefs, and there is just as good a case now for taking over these mines in Arigna and absorbing them in Bord na Móna with the other power groups under the control of the Minister— taking them over and putting the same dynamic management in control in the Arigna coal mines as paid such wonderful dividends in Bord na Móna over the past 30 years. I do not know how long the Minister has to wait before a self-evident reality is proved to him.
As I said earlier, there is no comparison between the conditions of work of the miners in Arigna and the conditions of employment of E.S.B., C.I.E. and Bord na Móna workers. There is no comparison at all between the measure of efficiency of these publicly-owned companies and the obviously grossly inefficient organisation in the Arigna mines. They are quite clearly taking the line that if they can get the local E.S.B. to provide them with a ready outlet for their products, they are prepared to mine the coal. As I said before, if Bord na Móna had taken that view, turf would not be burned anywhere except on the Bog of Allen or the other great turf-burning areas of the country.
It is obvious that the organisation at Arigna have a very limited outlook. They have not taken the same aggressive attitude as Bord na Móna took, with the result that not only do we sell turf outside the great turf-burning area of the Bog of Allen but we sell it in Dublin and other cities in our own country, and abroad. In Arigna, they appear to be content to carry on, if they can sell to the local E.S.B. station and get a guaranteed market for a number of years. They are prepared to go ahead on those conditions only.
It is quite obvious from an examination of the number of men working in the mines, and an examination of the output of the mines, that there is, at best, complete stagnation, virtual stagnation. If one produced the figures of employment in the turf-burning industry over the years, and showed they had not changed appreciably, there would be wide criticism, and justifiable criticism, of failure on the part of the people in charge to develop the industry as it could be and should be developed.
The Minister makes it clear that there will be no protection, no subsidies, and no compulsion. Those are all very curious directives from the Minister's Department because they cut right across Government policy over the years—permissible policy in certain circumstances, and inevitable policy in certain circumstances. What is the Minister's great objection to protection? Surely practically all our industries are protected. It has been one of the corner-stones of both Government and Opposition policy over the years to protect industries. Most people believe that the time has come when that protection should be reviewed, and in many cases removed, but the case was made, and justified on both sides of the House—and I agree—that at a certain stage of an industry, protection is permissible, desirable, inevitable and essential. Yet the Minister seems to take the view that this whole idea of protection is anathema, unthinkable, and cannot be considered.
Of course it must be considered. If we are to set on foot a really fine mining industry in this country, of course protection must be permissible and must be considered. I cannot believe the Minister seriously believes otherwise. When Bord na Móna were under consideration, if he were told by Mr. Andrews: "This is what I envisage for Bord na Móna; these are the prospects that I believe in"— as I once heard him say—"we will drive coal out of the grates of the city of Dublin"; if he came to the Minister and said: "I could do that if I had the authority, the power and the protection to do it," is it a fact that the Minister's attitude would be: "No, you cannot because we do not believe in protection?" Carts and horses would still be trundling loads of turf in the midlands and Bord na Móna would not have developed to their present stage—or the E.S.B., Irish Steel Holdings, or Irish Shipping Limited—if the Minister had been in control. How can the Minister take that view? It is completely cuckoo.
The Deputy is misquoting me. He is steadily misquoting me. I never said protection was anathema; I said that because of the Anglo-Irish agreement it was impossible.
The Minister keeps telling the world about the wonderful success of our publicly-owned industries. He was in the headlines two days ago telling about the remarkable expansion of our industries, our transport and power industries, the E.S.B. and other industries. He is very conscious of those remarkable achievements, and so are we all proud of them, but surely it is logical to say that we think the process under which these successes have been achieved is the process which we should now carry to another part of this fuel and power industry. It is in the position to-day that Bord na Móna were in when they were first taken over and when public enterprise first invested the people's wealth in the establishment of these new industries.
It is absurd for the Minister to say there will be no protection. Bad and all as things are in the country, any of our great achievements are due to the fact that some Minister at some time or other—because of a certain radical outlook, optimism, youth, an ambition to see something done for the country—decided it was permissible to protect the industry and, when it was a going concern, to remove the protection and allow it to stand on its feet. There can be no question but that the Minister is wrong. He is going contrary to Government and Opposition policy in taking that view. Time out of number I have heard the question of protection argued here. I do not think there is any Deputy who does not accept the case for protection.
Similarly with regard to subsidy. The Minister says there will be no subsidy. There is not one of our publicly-owned industries which has not had at some time Government support by way of subsidy. It is quite inconceivable that these great industries could be established if the Government had not decided to call on resources of the Exchequer to provide the machinery and to allow for the initial losses that are inseparable from the establishment of such great industries. Of course, the public must bear the initial impact in the form of subsidy in the hope that, in time, these industries will become so successful and prosperous that they will not only pay their way but certainly justify their existence and maybe pay back the capital invested in them.
The Minister has recently bought some jet aeroplanes for the development of our air services. Surely he did not expect Aer Lingus or Irish Air Lines to find the money for this investment which he believes essential for the expansion of that industry? Similarly, C.I.E. has to have vast sums given to it in order to provide for the dieselisation of that service. Subsidy is not a new idea. It is as old as the State.
The Deputy is again confusing terms. I used the word "subsidy" in relation to the subsidisation of the sale of the product. I have no objection, where suitable, to capital grants or working capital. The Deputy is deliberately trying to misquote me.
The Minister is now acting the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland. The words have whatever meaning I intend to attribute to them. They must have support if the industry is worth developing. That has been proved time out of number.
The Deputy is trying to pull rabbits out of my hat.
They have all had to have support in their early days in order to have some kind of initial capital to mechanise the undertaking and to provide for its most effective running.
On the questions of protection and subsidy, there is no doubt but that the Minister is once again running completely contrary to Government policy in his assertion that neither of these things is permissible in the circumstances of these mines which are providing a very indifferent service under poor employment conditions.
I do not think there is any serious need to consider the question of compulsion. I suppose every industry protected by means of a tariff produces an end product which we are effectively compelled to buy. To that extent there is compulsion in relation to many of our industries. I have no objection to it in certain circumstances but it is not a unique or unusual suggestion. There are circumstances where it is permissible. For instance, from a certain date one can buy only home-grown tomatoes. I am all for it. At the same time, we are virtually compelled to buy them. Good; I accept that. However, I am trying to show that in saying that there cannot be any compulsion the Minister is talking through his hat. There is compulsion in many aspects of our society.
The tomato-growers are well in—and they are not living in remote areas like Arigna.
The conditions of employment of these workers are quite scandalous, bearing in mind the ordinary conditions of coal mines. The nationalisation of mines in Great Britain has brought about a remarkable improvement in conditions of service in the mines there. I refer to facilities such as the provision of pit head baths and mechanisation to such a degree that men are relieved of the appalling, dirty drudgery so often associated with coal mining. That is something that had to wait—and in our country, too—in Great Britain until the mines became publicly owned.
There was then a remarkable advance in the mechanisation of mines. Obsolete equipment which private enterprise had used was replaced by magnificent modern equipment which made coal mining quite an acceptable career for anybody. In a condition of surplus, the mines in Great Britain were able to continue in operation because of the organisation and planning possible under public ownership, and the employees had secure employment with good monetary reward. The employees there did not have the appalling fear of insecurity of unemployment which the unfortunate employee in the Arigna mine continues to face.
I do not think the Minister has made any case for the continuation of this situation. One often hears of the failure of planning under Socialism. If we consider any of our publicly-owned industries it is quite clear that every one of them, up to and including C.I.E., was subsidised. Every effort was made to ensure that the management of the enterprise would be dynamic, would look for markets rather than sit and wait for them. That is the record of our publicly-owned companies.
From listening to the Taoiseach and every one of his Ministers we know that that is not the record of the privately-owned companies in this country. We have to beat them out of the country; we have to beat them into the export market. They are sitting on their backsides living behind protective tariff walls and making no attempt to expand. That is the record of private enterprise in this country. Quite contrary to the Minister's statement that private enterprise would succeed better than nationalisation, it did not. It failed all along the line, with a couple of exceptions which can be named, such as Messrs. Guinness, Messrs. Jacob and Messrs. Dwyers. It has failed all along the line.
The Minister has made no case for the continued use of private enterprise in the operation of these mines. One is often told about the activities of the doctrinaire socialists. We are looking at the activities of a doctrinaire conservative. The Minister is taking this stand simply because he is ideologically opposed to this idea of public ownership. It is a most scandalous thing that the Minister should continue to hold a ministry in which he is asked to conscientiously discharge his responsibility to these various publicly-owned industries which he does not think operate efficiently or which he thinks do not operate as efficiently as they could under private enterprise. The Minister has made no case at all for the continued control of these mines by private enterprise. I should like to ask him, in the light of the clear-cut case against the continued use of private enterprise in Arigna, to reconsider the matter and take it into the ambit of the affairs of the many companies over which he has control and of whose success he is so proud.
I think the Minister has met this case fairly. He has pointed out that a survey had been undertaken. If, as a result of that survey, sufficient coal can be guaranteed to run a second power station, a second power station will be erected. He also showed that there was an increase in the output of coal from Arigna, although I did not take a note of the figures. One of the difficulties was pointed out by Deputy McQuillan, that the price at which they were able to sell the coal at Drogheda would be uneconomic. They would want to get that price at the pithead.
As far as subsidy is concerned, there would be a case for the subsidisation of the transport of coal. I cannot understand how the British can sell their coal much more cheaply here than they sell it in the Six Counties. There must be a subsidy on the export of coal. Anybody with a knowledge of the trade relations between the two countries knows that there cannot be any such thing as a prohibition on British coal coming in. That is part of the Trade Agreement. We have the British market for our agricultural produce and they have free entry for their coal here. The only thing I can think of, pending the erection of a new power station, is a subsidy on the transport of coal. That would not be a new thing It has been done in regard to such transport as beet.
There is no comparison whatever between the mines at Arigna and other enormous mines, and it is ridiculous for Deputy Dr. Browne to suggest that there is. When the survey is completed, it may be found that there are very big deposits. Anyone who is acquainted with Arigna knows that the veins of coal are very light. It is very difficult to get them out. There is plenty of this crow coal. The Minister has pointed out that an investigation is under way to see what can be made of that. If there is an economic way of burning it, another power station could be erected, even though some more good coal may not be found. Already the State has interfered to this extent. In connection with the survey, I think the sum of £150,000 was mentioned.
What is the amount?
That is the total amount for all the coalfields that——
I agree with Deputy Dr. Browne and the others who say the State should take over the whole affair, if it is discovered that there are such deposits of coal there that private enterprise could not exploit them. That may happen and I hope it will. The small mines there are quite capable of being handled by the people who are running them at present. They are now being encouraged by the Minister's Department. I am satisfied that the people of Arigna know that well, too. The Minister ought not to close his mind to the possibility of enabling these people to sell their coal at a price that would at least just pay the mine owners. The only way that can be done is to subsidise its transport. I should like to know how the British are able to sell their coal here much more cheaply than they sell it at home or in the Six Counties.
The bogs were there for everybody to exploit and everybody knew they were there, but nobody could exploit them but the State. No private enterprises could do it. The railways broke down and if they were to continue at all, they had to be taken over by the State. The same thing applies to Irish Shipping. If the State had not started that company it would not be there at all. The mines are there and there is a certain amount of coal that cannot be sold at a price that will pay. I do not know if nationalising them would make things any better. I do not believe it would. If as a result of the survey, larger deposits are discovered, then there would be a case.
I do not think there is any case to answer. Certainly, neither the Minister nor Deputy Boland has changed my views with regard to the absolute necessity of nationalising the mining industry in Arigna. I feel disappointed that a matter of such importance to western constituents has met with such little interest in the House from other Deputies who come from the Counties Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon. The least they might have done, irrespective of Party, was to come along. Those Deputies from the Counties Roscommon, Sligo and Leitrim should at least come into the Dáil, sit in the House and contribute something to this debate.
Deputy Gilbride is sick. He would have liked to be here.
They go down to the chapel gates in these counties. They huddle into houses at night meetings in all sorts of political conspiracies and ask for the votes of the unfortunate miners.
I understand the Minister was speaking for about seven minutes and that, while speaking, he dealt with the charges I made before Christmas on the monopoly that had been created in the Arigna area, with regard to supplying the generating station, by one company, namely the Arigna Colleries Company. I understand he suggested this was the only company that was prepared to supply coal to the generating station for a period of 25 years and that other producers in the area were not inclined to tender or to supply coal on a long term basis. I may be misquoting the Minister; if I am I hope he will put me right, but if that is the Minister's viewpoint let me tell him that it is not the viewpoint of the majority of the miners in the Arigna area because they were never asked by the E.S.B. to tender for 25 years, or 25 months.
One company got practically the whole concession with regard to the supplying of this publicly-owned generating station. We have the extraordinary position that the State owns the generating station and a private company, in the next ten years, will have created such a position that they will almost have a complete monopoly for the supply of coal to that station. Is it not the position at the moment that this generating station consumes 45,000 tons of coal per year and of that 45,000 tons one company, namely Arigna Colleries, have a firm contract for the supply of 35,000 tons for the next 25 years? That leaves a total of 10,000 tons which is distributed amongst three other small producers in the area on a very doubtful year-to-year basis. There are four more minor producers in the area who have no contract and no outlet for their coal. Is it right that the State, through the E.S.B., should create such a position, that one company supplies 35,000 tons out of a total of 45,000 and, by the grip it has established, will be able to increase its hold and squeeze out the small owners who are left? It is only a matter of a few years because the other owners are not able to get an outlet for their product.
I quoted the Minister's letters before Christmas. He had the audacity to write to mining producers in the area that a certain semi-State company was prepared to take coal from Arigna provided it was able to compete with the coal coming in from abroad. I pointed out that that was coal which was subsidised by the British, to get rid of it, by a figure of 35/- to £2 a ton. The unfortunate miners and producers in Arigna were asked to compete with subsidised coal produced by the British with up-to-date machinery and the best skill in the world. That is the answer we get from people in a remote area like Arigna:—"The Cement Company will certainly take coal from you provided you can compete with what is coming in."
Deputy Dr. Browne mentioned tomatoes. The big end, shall we say, of tomato growing is around the city of Dublin and there are times when no foreign tomatoes are allowed in under any circumstances so that these well-off farmers in County Dublin will be protected and will have a very high price for their tomatoes. There is protection but these tomato growers are men of influence and strength and they are in a position to put the squeeze on the Minister for Transport and Power and members of his Party. The same applies to the Opposition, depending on whichever is in Government. I do not suggest that they intimidate the Government or the Opposition merely by throwing the tomatoes at them. There are stronger ways of dealing with political Parties and a squeeze is generally put on through failure to subscribe generously when the hat is being passed around for a general election.
The Minister is all for freedom of enterprise, open fields and open skies, but there are several items being manufactured in this country the raw material for which comes from abroad. Practically no part of the equipment in these finished products comes from raw material in Ireland. All the raw material comes from abroad and the products are simply assembled in Ireland and they have strong protection. Here we have a raw material which is in the ground, in the mountains and the valleys, and we are told that that industry must look after itself, that there is no question of protection of any description.
I want to make it clear to the Minister that although a case can be established for protection on the same lines as that given to State industries I am not seeking protection for the coal in that sense at all. I am not asking the Minister to put on a tariff. I am not asking him to offer a subsidy although I could justifiably, on the basis of the way subsidies are being given to industries for which the raw materials are brought in. I think he can save this industry, put it on its feet, expand it and give good employment without doing any of those things. I believe by handling it over to a body like Bord na Móna he can achieve success.
I want to quote the Minister's contribution and I think the House will see the fallacy of all his arguments in this statement which is reported at Col. 1226, Volume 185, for the 14th December last. He said:
I should make it clear at this point that under the Anglo-Irish Agreement it is impossible for the Government to impose a tariff on coal coming from Great Britain. It is one of the key factors of the Agreement and the maintenance of the arrangement relates to other privileges we have in the English market which are absolutely vital to our economy.
That is the case the Minister makes to me and he seeks to suggest by implication that my argument is that we must protect by subsidy or else we must stop the British coal from coming in. I have not made such a suggestion but I ask the Minister when he does make a statement like that will he tell me what trade agreement we have with Poland, and what trade agreement we have with the United States of America? Have not both of these countries been flooding up with coal and does the trade agreement with Britain cover Polish coal and American coal? How does the Minister reconcile that position? He cannot have it both ways. The Polish and American coal was as harmful to the Arigna people as the British coal. The Minister cannot suggest to the public that Deputy McQuillan and Deputy Dr. Browne are trying to prohibit the importation of British coal and that we cannot do it because of the trade agreement. The Minister forgets to tell the public that there is plenty of American and Polish coal coming in. In other words, the Minister is trying to suggest that we want to raise the price of coal on the housewife in Dublin and elsewhere.
I am not suggesting that Arigna coal be burned in fireplaces or used for domestic purposes but I am suggesting that for industrial purposes Arigna coal cannot be surpassed and, in calorific value and ash content, is superior to British coal for industrial purposes. I would suggest that the Minister should get some of his advisers who are surveying Arigna at the moment to read the reports of the technicians who installed the equipment at Ballinasloe Mental Hospital which to-day is one of the biggest consumers of coal from Arigna. Their report is that Arigna coal is superior to imported coal and does not harm furnaces and equipment and that the authorities are highly pleased with the results.
Coras Iompair Éireann, Cement Limited and other people suggested that Arigna coal was unsatisfactory in various ways. This objection to Arigna coal can be traced to the fact that a number of the people who control the policy of some of the groups I have referred to had closer associations with British groups than they would like to admit. They were prejudiced in favour of the foreign article, prejudiced against Arigna coal, sometimes on the grounds that during the war years, when the demand was very heavy, an odd wagon-load of very poor coal found its way to industrial concerns. Prejudice was created as a result and has been used as an excuse ever since to decry Arigna coal.
The Minister has stated that he could not direct or influence the E.S.B. or any of these companies in regard to the coal they use. Of course, he could, as Minister. The question of policy is decided by the Government. The question of administration is a matter for the company. If the Government make an announcement or issue a directive to State companies that it is Government policy that a percentage of the fuel used by those companies must be native coal, that solves the problem. Undoubtedly if the Minister were anxious to secure a continuous demand from State and semi-State bodies for native coal the industry could flourish.
At this stage we are not asking private enterprise to burn Arigna coal because private enterprise is not interested. There is no good in asking the people of some town to burn Arigna coal unless the State itself sets the example. When I am able to show the Minister, beyond doubt, that Ballinasloe Mental Hospital has found Arigna coal to be the most successful coal that they have used to date, why cannot other State institutions and bodies use Arigna coal? If it is successful in Ballinasloe Mental Hospital, it will be successful anywhere and all we want is that the Government should direct, as it is empowered to direct, State companies to use Irish coal. We cannot direct private companies to do so but in the case of a State company run by the people, for the people, owned by the people, we should ensure that the company is national to the utmost extent, especially if the native fuel supplied to it is equal to what it can get from abroad and can be produced at a competitive price.
In Arigna at the moment the good coal that is being produced is unmarketable for the majority of producers. On 16th December, 1960, the Minister was written to by one of the producers in the area who asked him could he use his good offices with the E.S.B. and Cement Limited to purchase up to 10,000 tons of coal. I do not know what the Minister did about that request but that coal was available up to December. There was no outlet for it and the men who mined it had to be laid off. It is nearly time that the human factor was taken into consideration. Families must be considered and the workers must have a sense of security if they are to remain in the area.
For 40 years we have had native government in this part of the country and private enterprise has failed to give stability, to expand and to produce. Now the Minister comes into this House and says with his tongue in his cheek that he believes that private enterprise is the only successful way to accomplish development of the mining industry. Is not that the death knell so far as these people are concerned?
I have here a quotation from the Roscommon Herald of 14th May, 1960, under the heading “Work Slack in Arigna”. It states that for the second time in recent months it was found necessary to reduce the working week by a day owing to marketing difficulties; that as far as one of the big factories in Arigna was concerned at that stage 300 of the employees were told that there would be no work on Saturdays and Mondays; that there was wholesale emigration from the Arigna and Drumshanbo areas since the previous Christmas and that, with the threat of a further reduction in work, men were going every week, particularly the younger ones; that more were preparing to go; that whole families had already gone, including one family of eleven; that that fact was being keenly felt, not alone in Arigna but in Drumshanbo, the market town of the miners and their families, and in the surrounding towns.
The Roscommon Herald is a paper that adores the Fianna Fáil Party. They thought that the situation was so bad that they could not hide the truth in the Arigna area. Even though I am trying to force them into the open, I believe that they will not publish a line of the discussion that has taken place in this House about the Arigna area. They published that report last summer of the conditions in the Arigna area as they saw them. That was from the Government's newspaper in the locality and if the Minister is not prepared to accept what they say, I cannot persuade him.
The Roscommon Herald give every side of the fence.
The Roscommon Herald is interested only in Fianna Fáil and not in anyone else.
That is not correct. They give fair play to every side.
Fair play is the furthest thing from their minds.
They give every side and have always done so.
Deputy Boland will have to collaborate with me after this motion to print copies of the entire discussion and have it sent around to the chapel gates in North Roscommon so that people will know that there has been a discussion of their circumstances.
That is a good way of getting it published, I must say.
I would ask Deputy Boland how much of the discussion has been published in that paper so far? It is an extraordinary thing that every other local paper has published the conditions, the questions, and all the discussion here but there has been complete silence from the paper which the Deputy is now so anxious to defend.
That is not relevant.
I agree. I did not intend to be so generous with him until Deputy Boland led me into the discussion.
We shall pass from that now.
Deputy Dr. Browne mentioned the conditions under which the miners work in Britain. Twenty years ago, the conditions in the mines in Britain, if they had obtained here, would have horrified the ordinary Englishman or Welshman. They have now first-class health services, first-class washing facilities, sanitation and so on; they have protective clothing, good hours and security. What is the position in Arigna? They do not know from day to day how long their employment is to last. There is no issue of protective clothing to any man. He must buy it himself. If you walked along in the evening in any part of this area, you would swear you were in Africa when you meet these men— no washing facilities, no interest whatever taken in them as human beings by the private groups that exploit them. That will all be changed if a body like Bord na Móna is charged with the responsibility of running these mines.
The patience shown by these people is remarkable. It has reached the stage now where they have lost hope. Their patience is gone and by degrees, they are drifting out. When the figures are shown after the next census, the general public and the members of this House will receive a great shock when they realise the number of families who have left this area and who will keep on leaving because when one group moves, they create the pool which will draw their neighbours and their friends as the years go by. That is the situation that has developed; there is only one way to stop this economic and social disaster and that is for the State to step in in time and so organise the industry that these families that are there will have security and those who are gone will have the opportunity of coming back.
The Minister pointed out that part of the investigation going on at the moment in Arigna is into the possibility of utilising large deposits of what is described as crow coal. As I have pointed out already, that is admirable and it is high time that such an investigation took place. However, that is only part of the difficulty. The major difficulty is to get a market for high-grade, deep-mined coal which is being mined there as well. There is no market for that outside the limited one for one or two companies.
I would suggest to the Minister that if he is not prepared at this stage to accept this motion as it stands, he should be prepared to say to all the producers in the area: "I want you to come together to form a united group, agree to submit from each colliery a certain amount of coal into a general pool." Thus the Department of Industry and Commerce in conjunction with the mine owners, would allocate so much of that coal to various State and semi-State bodies. If that were done as a start, it would mean that each of the producers in Arigna would know he had a market for a certain amount of coal and he would be able to make arrangements for the following 12 months to employ a certain number on a continuous basis and a certain immediate stability would be brought to the situation. The only way that can be done is by taking all the owners into the Minister's confidence. There must be no favouritism; all must be consulted and a general pool created to which all will subscribe. I hope the Minister will consider that. I do not think he has considered it so far.
There is another very important point to which the Minister has not referred in any detail, that is, the nature of the investigation and the exploration going on in the Arigna area. I am speaking purely as a layman with no technical knowledge at all, but I am informed on what I consider to be fairly reliable authority that the investigation going on now into deposits is confined to the top of the mountains in Arigna and that in areas a number of bore holes have been put down to examine whether there are certain deep seams of coal in the mountains. These borings that have been made are close to borings that were made years ago and some of the local people who are familiar with the matter can make a rough estimate of what amount of coal is in the mountains.
Will there be any investigation by the experts who are in Arigna into the question of coal deposits under the Arigna river? I understand some Scottish and English experts over the years maintained that the richest seams of coal in that countryside are to be found under the Arigna river. To my knowledge, no borings have taken place to test the accuracy or otherwise of that. I want the Minister to take note of this now. I am giving him warning that over the next few months, I intend to extract from him, by questions, whether this investigation that is going on will include borings of the Arigna river bed itself and well under it. He is getting notice in time so that we will have the position established whether or not there are very large deposits in the area. Deputy Boland is now on record as stating that if these large deposits are found in Arigna, he is in favour of nationalisation.
Mr. Boland
Provided they cannot be exploited locally.
I do not want Deputy Boland to get cautious at this stage.
The Deputy will not get away with misquoting me.
I do not intend to misquote the Deputy. I understood the Deputy to say that if major deposits were found in the Arigna area, that would be the time when the motion we have down now would be acceptable. Am I right or wrong?
Provided local enterprise was not capable of developing them. That is what I said.
I do not know what the Deputy means. I do not think there is much point in delaying the House. Even at this late stage, I would ask the Minister to examine his conscience. His leader, the Taoiseach, has shown commendable enterprise in the past in matters concerning development of native industries and although I criticised, and will criticise, the Taoiseach on many things, I must say that he played a big part in the establishment of some very successful State enterprises, of which we are all proud. I hate to hear or read of Ministers half-apologising when they speak at chamber of commerce dinners and elsewhere and suggesting that these State companies would not have been set up but for the fact that private enterprise was not strong enough to do the job. We should be proud that State Companies were set up and have succeeded and it should be an encouragement to the Minister and the Taoiseach to continue with State companies, where there is need for them.
We already have a State company, Bord na Móna, functioning in regard to fuel. What is wrong with bringing the technical skill and resources of such an able company to bear on the problem at Arigna? I hope the House will support this motion and bring it home forcibly to the Minister that a great number of our people feel that the only way to develop the resources of this locality is to hand them over to a State company.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 10: Níl, 64.
Tá
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Browne, Noel C.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Everett, James.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- McQuillan, John.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Norton, William.
- Spring, Dan.
- Tierney, Patrick.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Booth, Lionel.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, Seán.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carty, Michael.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Clohessy, Patrick.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Crowley, Honor M.
- Cummins, Patrick J.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Mick.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Donegan, Batt.
- Moher, John W.
- Moloney, Daniel J.
- Mooney, Patrick.
- Moran, Michael.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Malley, Donogh.
- Dooley, Patrick.
- Egan, Kieran P.
- Egan, Nicholas.
- Faulkner, Padraig.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Galvin, John.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, James.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Humphreys, Francis.
- Johnston, Henry M.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Medlar, Martin.
- Millar, Anthony G.
- Ormonde, John.
- O'Toole, James.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Mary B.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Teehan, Patrick.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dr. Browne and McQuillan; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Mrs. Lynch.
Question declared lost.