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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 May 1961

Vol. 188 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed)

Debate resumed on the following motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."— (Deputy McGilligan).

I listened to Deputy McGilligan last night and his remarks led me to believe that his one ambition was to report progress in order that he could bring forward some very important points this afternoon. He spoke of the state of national emergency and asked why it had never been revoked. He pointed out that the war has been over for 16 years, and said that surely something should be done. I am not familiar with the arguments for and against this matter but I do know that during six of those 16 years, Deputy McGilligan and his colleagues were in charge of the affairs of State.

It would seem to me that if Deputy McGilligan was so intense about it, he would have succeeded in convincing his own colleagues that there was a necessity to take action. If he could not convince his own colleagues, I am quite sure the Government must have ample reason for not acceding to his request. After all, he had the opportunity to deal with it and nothing was done. We have come to expect from Fine Gael and, if you like, from Deputy McGilligan, in particular, negative criticism and no constructive proposals. As I said, I thought Deputy McGilligan was trying to fill in time so that he could bring forward some very important points here this afternoon which he wanted reported on the radio and in the Press, the morning papers and so forth. I came here this afternoon to hear the points, but apparently Deputy McGilligan had no point at all.

We have also noticed efforts from the far side of the House in recent times to create the impression abroad that there is discontent among the Garda Síochána, that they are dissatisfied about their pay and conditions, and that they have a very real grievance. In his usual fashion last night, Deputy McGilligan dwelt on the matter and attempted to build up the impression that that discontent in fact exists. I should like to know if I am right in thinking that now, for the first time, the Garda have arbitration and conciliation machinery available to them, and that all matters of pay and allowances are dealt with by that machinery. If that is so, I should like to know what is the reason for the discontent. The remedy of conciliation machinery, with ultimate resort to arbitration, is available to the Garda to settle all questions. If I am not right in saying that, I hope someone will tell me what the position is, but if I am right, the House must agree with me that this campaign is absolutely dishonest and deplorable.

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department of Justice on the improvements in the activities of the Garda Síochána during the past year. Some laws which were never seriously enforced in the past are now being enforced. No matter what people think of the law, it is being enforced. It is the same for everyone. Surely in a democratic society, we must all approve of the principle of one law for everyone, with no special concessions for special people.

I also think the addition of the Ban-Garda was very useful to the Force. The introduction of the white batons and the white coats and so forth have done a lot to improve the appearance of the Garda and their ability to control traffic. These new developments are certainly very welcome. We can be very proud of our police force. They are all well-educated, intelligent, courteous and efficient men and women. The improvements in regard to traffic control, and the fact that the general appearance of the Garda has improved, will give a very favourable impression to tourists.

Last year, I requested the Minister to consider the addition of mounted police to the police force. Last night our bloodstock got a tremendous boost in Italy. With the tremendous reputation our bloodstock has all over the world —racehorses, hunters and working horses—a mounted police force would not only be a benefit to our growing export of horses but an addition to the tourist attractions of the city. In that way it would help to further the national economy. Mounted police have considerable advantage in dealing with traffic jams and controlling gatherings of people likely to become disorderly. The Minister should seriously consider providing mounted police for Dublin, Cork and Limerick —the major cities, at any rate.

I have a word of criticism in regard to the new traffic regulations. We have been urged by the Parliamentary Secretary to endeavour to drive in traffic lanes in the city centre. Many streets where parking was previously permitted are now restricted. The purpose of this is to encourage traffic coming out of or into the city to drive in double lanes. Unfortunately, you get the occasional lorry or horse and dray from Guinness's, perhaps unloading in places where waiting is either restricted or prohibited. As a result, it is impossible to get this double lane of traffic. I have particularly in mind Bachelor's Walk and Pearse Street. I do not know so much about O'Connell Street. Bachelor's Walk and Pearse Street are streets where there is a great deal of loading and unloading.

The only people I can think of who suffer from this restriction are the owners of licensed premises. In places like Pearse Street, a number of people on their way from work used to pull in and stop for a drink before going home. They now go further out of town to have that drink. Maybe that is a good thing. Unless we can arrange for collections and deliveries to be made early in the morning or late in the evening, the "no waiting" idea is not working for the simple reason that it takes only one lorry or dray to force drivers back into a single lane. When people see one parked vehicle they will not drive in traffic lanes because they fear they might get caught behind the parked vehicle. The remedy would be to restrict the hours of delivery, to prohibit deliveries being made during peak traffic periods.

There is another point I brought up last year which, I think, should be considered again. There are a number of parks owned by Dublin Corporation. These are controlled by park rangers employed by the Corporation. These park rangers have not got the power of arrest. In the event of somebody committing an offence in the park, the park ranger must go to the nearest telephone and call the police. The policeman cannot enter the park unless he is invited to do so by an authorised person because these are private parks owned by the Corporation. In other words, there can be no police patrol in a park.

In my own constituency we have a very fine new development in Shaw's Wood, where there are a number of football pitches, tennis courts and some very attractive walks. It is wonderful to go there on a Sunday and see hundreds of youths playing there while their mothers and fathers enjoy the nice surroundings. But occasionally a small number of hooligans come in and start to cause trouble, beating up, perhaps, a couple of small girls. Unless the park ranger calls up the police, it is quite likely he will not be strong enough himself to restrain this kind of activity. I have seen some of these gangs with bicycle chains and so forth. There has actually been an incident of a park ranger having to go to hospital because he tried to prevent this type of conduct. If the Minister is not prepared to make arrangements to have the parks included in the normal police patrols, at least telephones should be provided at several spots to enable the police to be called quickly. Under the present arrangement the offenders inevitably get away before the police arrive. If the Minister has any views on this matter, I should like to hear them when he is replying.

Some years ago, at the request of the Lord Mayor, there was a report on vandalism and juvenile delinquency in Dublin. I have the document here, but unfortunately there is no date on it. Many of the items dealt with in this would probably come under the Departments of Education, Local Government, Social Welfare and so on, but a few would come under the Department of Justice. One is the censorship of films and books. We know that a lot of these very low type papers and picture comics have been done away with and that the traders and wholesalers here are rather careful about the type of literature they import for general distribution. But one portion of this Report says:

Film censorship is reasonably effective for adults but there is a case for the adoption of some form of discrimination between the films suitable for all ages and those which might be harmful to juveniles.

There has been a lot of argument on both sides as to whether we should have a less rigid form of censorship for adults and a grading of films on the English system, that is, "A", "U" and "X" certificate films. I invariably question my own children when they are going out to the pictures and try to influence them as to what pictures they should see. But when they have their few shillings in their pockets, I have no guarantee that these are the pictures they will go to. It may also happen that you have a major feature film ideally suitable for children along with a supporting feature absolutely unsuitable for them. I have come across that in a suburban cinema recently. The Minister might like to set up a small committee to examine further this question of film censorship or have his officials do so. The film censor is doing a very good job, but certain films harmful to children are, unfortunately, available to them. I understand that the report points out that book censorship presents a more difficult problem. The committee were assured by the Censorship of Publications Board that they are particularly concerned with publications which might scandalise the young mind and that they will do everything in their power to ensure that these publications do not circulate.

Another practice which is to be seen in Dublin quite often—I have seen it myself in my constituency—is a young child coming into a public house with a jug—the jug this child had was an aluminium jug—to have it filled with porter or stout for his father or mother, do not ask me which. I saw that happen rather late in the night, about 10.30 p.m. I feel that at that stage a child had no place in that public house. It was a time when some people were slightly merry, if you like to say so, and some of the stories were certainly not suitable for the ears of children. I drew the attention of the publican to it. He said that the child came in every evening as his father was not well.

I can understand that there is a human side to all this, but efforts must be made to prevent children from going into public houses and into betting shops. A matter I feel very strongly about is tolerating children begging in the streets. That might best be dealt with by the policeman on the beat who might give them a good fright rather than by any direct action of the Department. All these things contribute to juvenile delinquency.

I think I am right in saying that the incidence of crime and juvenile delinquency was on the decline last year. Perhaps that can be attributed again, in relation to this report, to the better economic circumstances of most of the families in the city. As long as the young teenager is walking the streets with no employment and despairs of getting employment, he is very susceptible to suggestions which are likely to lead him into crime and trouble. The fact that the unemployment situation is not as serious as it was some years ago contributes largely to the reduction in deliquency in recent times.

I have had experience of going along to the Children's Court in Dublin Castle and making representations on behalf of children who I felt were just swayed. There might have been only one bad fellow among the lot of them. Somebody might have said: "Look at that packet of cigarettes: we ought to swipe it," or whatever it might be, and the lot of them might then find themselves in court.

I want to pay a tribute to the judge in the Children's Court which I have attended. He is understanding. He deals admirably with the situation and conveys to the child the seriousness of the offence. He does not remand the child, unless he is an habitual offender and obviously needs corrective training. In that respect, I know that some excellent work has been done in St. Patrick's Institution on the North Circular Road but I should like to query the Minister on the question of prison reform.

I do not think I can blame the people opposite in this instance, but there is the feeling in some circles that we are falling behind in the matter of prison reform. Personally, I do not think this is so, but to the best of my knowledge there has been no authoritative statement to show that it is not so. When he is replying, I should like the Minister to outline what has been done and what exactly is the general thinking of the Government in regard to prison reform, in order that the public may understand the position and compare how this country is dealing with that matter in the light of action by other countries.

My constituency is about 75 per cent. working-class and contains municipal housing areas. A problem that arises there is the cost of litigation. If a man without adequate means wants health services, there are Health Acts which enable him to get assistance from the State for specialist and institutional services. The amount he has to pay towards these services depends largely on his income.

In the Dublin Corporation housing scheme, we have a system of differential rents. That was first proposed in the Dublin Corporation by the Labour Party and eventually it was adopted. The purpose behind the differential rents scheme is to enable the local authority to house people of small means who could not pay an economic rent. The idea was that the State would contribute, the local authority would contribute and the tenant would contribute towards the cost of the house in accordance with his means. We have that principle in housing and health.

If a man has a genuine case for litigation, he may be denied justice because he is afraid of the costs involved. I do not know how the Minister can deal with this problem. Perhaps it can be dealt with in some way similar to the health question. It is socially desirable to do so. The Government should devise some ways and means whereby the working man can get justice, whether or not he has money in the bank. A man earning £7 or £8 a week is as entitled to justice as the man earning £1,000 or £2,000 a year. This problem will require a great deal of examination but the precedents are there in the Health Acts and in the differential rents scheme. It is highly desirable that some system of subsidisation be worked out for people of moderate or low means and we can be sure of getting the cooperation of the legal profession.

Another question which I raised last year relates to the two years' extension granted to superintendents and higher ranks of the Garda Síochána with Old I.R.A. service. This extension, to the best of my knowledge, applies only to superintendents. Last year, I requested the Minister to consider extending this facility to, shall we say, the noncommissioned officers, the inspectors and sergeants. These men served the country just as well as their counterparts in the higher ranks. They are in responsible posts and, subject to their passing the necessary medical tests, I see no reason why the extension should not apply. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to make a note of this for special consideration and I hope this time next year, it will not be necessary to repeat what I have said.

We have had a great deal of criticism, particularly from Deputies McGilligan and Ryan, about the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Justice. We had a reference to what Deputy O'Malley said on the question some years ago, to the effect that the then Minister for Justice was not fully employed. I agree that Deputy O'Malley at that time was quite right. Since last night, I made a point of going to the Library and looking up the amount of legislation that has been going through the Department in the past few years and I think that never before has the same amount of legislation been framed in the Department as in the past year or two. Never before has the Department been responsible for so much activity. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his speech in Clery's a week or two ago and I think we can all feel assured that the Government are fully aware of their responsibilities, so far as the Department of Justice is concerned. They have certainly laid down a programme which will give us every confidence in them.

I seldom find myself in agreement with the previous speaker but I agree with him when he recommended that we should have a section of mounted police in our police force. I have heard this advocated several times here and I wonder why it has not been done. We should have a company of mounted police, at least in Dublin and Cork. They could do excellent work in large gatherings at sports fixtures and similar functions. The time may come when the Garda uniform may be in the same position as that of the Army uniform in Rome last night where a very stirring event occurred. It would be a magnificent position if our police force were able to go abroad and do what the Army's Captain Ringrose did. I saw that last night and I was greatly moved by it, as I am sure were others who saw it, especially when the National Anthem was played in Rome and all those thousands of people stood up to honour this Irish horseman in the ring.

Deputy Lemass complained about children entering pubs with the family jug to bring home the family beer. I always believed that a law against that had been passed here to the accompaniment of much lamentation, by women who used rear their children by carrying them around in a shawl, that they would no longer be able to bring the children in when they were going in for a pint. I am sure the law is still there.

What does tend to encourage juvenile delinquency is something beyond the control of the Minister of the Parliamentary Secretary, that is, the attitude of parents. The children grow up and, when they have become delinquents and the Garda in the course of their duty bring them before the courts, the children are usually not even reprimanded. They have a sort of field day going down to the Children's Court, with their mammas, a day off from school. It does not matter what damage they did or what blackguardism they have committed—they will probably be let off with no punishment. It is up to the Department to let the justices and the people responsible for administering justice know that there should be discipline and justice and that there must be protection for the ordinary citizen.

We had the case on Sunday last concerning an organisation for which I do not have much regard—C.I.E. C.I.E. promoted a mystery tour from Dublin to Clonmel and C.I.E. are to be commended on these promotions which are a source of pleasure for a large number of people. They have the thrill of the mystery of where they are going, and a good time is had by all until a few blackguards come along and upset everybody.

I do not know what the law is—perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary could outline the position—whether C.I.E. should provide their own police. I believe that there used to be railway police at the large stations but I read that C.I.E. were considering giving up these mystery tours. I think the Department should consider it their duty to see that the people are not deprived of these tours and should see to it that the people and C.I.E. and C.I.E. property are protected. The Department should communicate with C.I.E. and say that if C.I.E. are prepared to continue these tours, the Department will see that these trains have adequate protection.

Two years ago, when C.I.E. were recruiting hostesses, I suggested that what was needed was to recruit railway policemen to travel on the trains and protect the people. This type of conduct extends beyond mystery tours. It occurs on the boats coming to this country and it usually happens that— I hesitate to say a minority—just one or two people are involved out of the thousands of our people who travel. One or two blackguards can upset the whole boat or train. Usually there is the No. 1 man, Micheál, Mick or Liam, who has had a few pints and with him one or two acolytes, who are minding him. Mick has made up his mind that he is going to fight some waiter, ticket checker or other inoffensive person and the whole train is held up while these blackguards go up and down opening doors, threatening people, using bad language, taking over the dining car— if there is one—and ensuring that no decent man, woman or child can go into it.

Would this not be a matter primarily for the transport company, rather than the Minister for Justice?

I think the time has come when we must give the transport company the protection to which any company is entitled. As I said, I do not know whether it is open to the company to have their own police. I do not know why they should be or would be compelled to have their own police, but that is not the question. The question is that we have a police force and a Department of Justice and we owe something to the 1,500 decent people who travelled down last weekend to Clonmel and whose enjoyment was considerably spoiled by these blackguards. We should protect these people.

With regard to crimes of violence, I wish to speak of one particular incident. The matter is no longer sub judice. The criminal has been sentenced to four months' imprisonment for beating up an old lady, an altogether inadequate sentence, in my opinion.

The Deputy is not in order in criticising in this House the decisions of the judiciary.

What happens when these blackguards beat up old ladies, with robbery as the motive? What happens when they attack any inoffensive citizen? They are brought into court and quite a number of people will rush forward to say what grand fellows these blackguards really are. I am constantly reading these cases. They occur all over the country. A young blackguard is brought to court. There he apologises and the do-gooders say he should be let off; the thing will not happen again. It is just too bad for the old man he assaulted with six stitches in his poll. The blackguard gets off with a nominal fine. There is a dance in a village or town. All over again, there are assaults on inoffensive citizens, on officials running the dance, even on the members of the Garda Síochána themselves.

There are friends of mine, both inside and outside this House, who say that cruel sentences never lead to anything, that they do not put down crime and are no deterrent. I would draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the Notting Hill riots and all the fun the boys with the tight pants, the long locks, the flick knives and the broken bottles were having every Friday and Saturday night in Notting Hill, cutting the faces off black men and black men cutting the faces off them. All the do-gooers were saying: "If you bring these men in and talk to them, they are really not bad at heart." Fortunately, there happened to be a sound judge. He gave sentences varying from four to six years. No one has said boo to a goose in Notting Hill since.

That is the line that should be followed here. The Minister said crime is not rampant in this country. The majority of the people are law-abiding. According to the do-gooders, it is not the law-abiding who must be catered for and protected; it is the very small minority of blackguards.

There is only one way in which to make this small minority law-abiding citizens, that is, by punishing them, and punishing them severely. That is the only way in which we will stop these outrages and make it safe for our people to travel on public vehicles.

The Garda are growing discouraged. They spend weeks, pounding the pavement, finding out the facts. Eventually they bring the culprits to justice. I have been present in court and I have known a bunch of blackguards to be allowed off.

The Deputy is proceeding to question a decision of the courts.

No. I merely want to say what happened after. Outside the courts, they gave the Garda the "raspberry". I suppose that would not be a Parliamentary sound to make here.

Sometimes even Ministers get it.

Deputy Lemass asked about prison reform. It is only too obvious that he has not read the Minister's opening statement, in which he dealt with prison reform. At column 1029 of Volume 188 of the Official Report, the Minister said:—

The Estimate shows an increase of £19,270 over the original Estimate and the Supplementary Estimate for 1960-61. These increases are in the main borne on the subheads of Pay and Allowances, Victualling, Clothing, Bedding and Furniture, Maintenance of Buildings and Equipment and the Manufacturing Department and Farm. On the pay side, the additional cost is principally due to increases resulting from the settlement of staff claims under conciliation and arbitration machinery and the recruitment of additional staff for the supervision of political prisoners in Mountjoy. An improved dietary for prisoners and inmates. Which is being introduced very shortly, is responsible for the increased victualling costs. While the present diet is of good standard from the point of view of nutrition, I cannot help feeling that it is somewhat monotonous and that some variation of the dietary is desirable. The changes which I propose to make and which should help to relieve the monotony include the substitution of flake meal for pinhead oatmeal, provision of a milk pudding or other sweet with the dinner, an increase in the tea ration and the sugar content of tea, and an additional bread and marmalade ration instead of porridge on certain mornings.

This sounds excellent. If we are ever locked out of hotels in Dublin, we can go up to Mountjoy. If Deputy Lemass gets his way and we have more prison reform, I am sure cigars will be supplied with the dinner, as well as the milk pudding.

There is a Road Traffic Bill before the House. The only point I should like to make in connection with road traffic is that there should be proper road patrols, not only in Dublin but elsewhere. After big sporting events, there is a kind of race home. One would think there was a prize of £1,000 for the first car home. The cars take corners in fives and sixes.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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