Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 May 1961

Vol. 189 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £6,996,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of grants in aid— (Minister for Posts and Telegraphs).

Mr. Loughman

In recent years the telephone has come to be regarded as an essential public service and in the towns people have plenty of facilities so far as the telephone is concerned. In all our towns we have erected kiosks for the convenience of people who have not the service in their own homes and of course the number of telephones in private homes and business houses has increased enormously. For some time past demands for the telephone in rural areas have been increasing. We know that many things have been done to bring to the rural areas some of the amenities which have been available to people living in centres of population. For instance, in recent years we have had the electric light; now they have been provided with piped water supplies and before the end of the year they will have, I believe, television.

I know that there is difficulty in erecting kiosks in remote rural areas but it is in these areas that the need for the telephone service is greatest. I have in mind a part of County Tipperary on the slopes of Slievenamon, which is thickly populated and which is no less than five or six miles from any telephone. If a person in that area is in need of a doctor or a vet, or if there is a fire in the locality he has to travel several miles before he gets to a telephone and even when he gets to that place, if it is night time, he may find he cannot get to that telephone and would have to travel several more miles.

It would seem a bit stiff I suppose to ask that kiosks should be erected in such areas. We know they are likely to be damaged by people destroying the telephone register or even by people interfering with the machinery or equipment of such kiosks. But I think that the difficulty could be obviated by the co-operation of either the cottiers in the district or the farmers if they would allow these kiosks to be erected on their property. I would like to press on the Minister that it is a service which would be very much appreciated in rural Ireland. People suffer great hardships because the service is not available. I have known people to suffer great loss because they could not get in touch with a veterinary surgeon quickly because of the distance they had to travel either to the vet, or to the nearest telephone. Sometimes when a person is sick it is a very important thing that the priest or doctor should be quickly available and if there did happen to be a kiosk in some of the districts that I have mentioned it would be very much appreciated. It would provide people with service which would be greatly appreciated and, in present circumstances, most desirable. Perhaps the Minister would consider that amenity for the people of rural Ireland.

Mr. Palmer

This Estimate has now been very fully debated. That is well because the Post Office and everything connected with it are more closely associated with the people than perhaps any other Department. Very little criticism can be made of the Minister's statement and it is good to know that the six-day delivery is now general and areas which heretofore had only three- or four-day deliveries now have six-day deliveries.

I congratulate the Minister and his Department on the fact that the Irish Army in the Congo have regular delivery of letters and parcels. We know the difficulties that arose there at first and we are glad they have been overcome.

We notice a reduction in the number of telegrams. I presume that is because of increased costs. There is great demand for telephones and a big waiting list but let us hope that the Minister, by increasing his staff for such work and by getting more of the necessary equipment, will be able to provide telephones for all those on that waiting list. Day after day and week after week there are new calls for the installation of telephones and that is welcome. I agree entirely with Deputy Loughman when he says that even in very remote areas telephones should be installed. I have in mind—and I have frequently raised the matter—a place called The Valley in Beaufort district where local people require a telephone. In addition, tourists having gone through the gap of Dunloe often ask if they may use the telephone in the toll house at the head of the lake before they take boats for Killarney.

There is also an area in Caherdaniel in which I have asked the Minister to provide a 24-hour telephone service. He says that until there are 20 people with telephones installed the regulations will not allow the service requested. It would be well to alter the regulations for the benefit of people in those remote areas and I ask him to consider the matter again and to give The Valley, Castlecove, and Caherdaniel districts the telephone services they require.

Nearly all speakers referred to auxiliary postmen and their conditions of service and pay. About a year ago, I understand, provision was made whereby they were to get a gratuity on retirement after having given certain service but some provision should be made by which they will receive a pension on reaching the retiring age— a gratuity and a pension. There is the difficulty that we have established postmen who are entitled to a pension. Perhaps the whole question of the appointment of postmen should be investigated because they are really political appointments. The Government have patronage, whatever Government are in office. I think there should be some system of examination for postmen before appointment. It need not be a very difficult examination. It often happens that a person with a very poor education is appointed and that is not right.

Previously I think I referred to uniforms and, while some improvements have taken place, the material and the style of the post office uniform are not satisfactory. Anybody wearing uniform should be correct in walking or in whatever they are doing and it might be of advantage if postmen were given lectures or something of that kind. Rural postmen must travel long journeys on bicycles and some, I believe, must walk. Perhaps they should at least get autocycles or some allowance to enable them to purchase autocycles.

As regards subpostmasters, there is a long-deferred application from them for arbitration. They are appointed by the Minister. They must supply accommodation, lighting and heating and no provision is made for cleaning the offices or payment of attendants. There is no way by which they can have a holiday or sick leave. Conditions of service are very poor and there is great dissatisfaction among subpostmasters. In 1956 there was, I think, great uneasiness and dissatisfaction and the then Minister for Post and Telegraphs, the late Deputy Keyes, set up some sort of a council—the Subpostmasters Consultative Council, I think it was called —but this has proved unsatisfactory. I believe the chairman of that council in all cases is the assistant Secretary of the Department. Such a council is very far removed from the arbitration requested by the subpostmasters' union. In fact, it has become useless and no satisfaction has been derived by the subpostmasters from its deliberations.

Arbitration machinery is provided for the Garda Síochána, civil servants, teachers, and so forth. Why should it not be provided also for subpostmasters? I understand that subpostmasters in Northern Ireland have had arbitration since 1935 and surely we could be just as good as they are in Northern Ireland.

Last year a conference of subpostmasters in Cork was addressed by the Bishop of Cork and Ross, Dr. Lucey. His Lordship said that surely the State does not expect to be judge and jury on the claims of its own servants. He was referring there to the council set up in 1956. In all cases of unions it is well to have arbitration but that is especially the case in connection with State Departments. Subpostmasters are not unreasonable in their demands and let us hope that the Minister before he leaves office will meet the demand of the subpostmasters for arbitration, with good results.

Another matter which has been brought to the notice of every Deputy is the question of increasing the interest rate on post office savings deposits The people who put their money in post office savings are small investors. There may not be a bank in the area in which they live. They are very slow to invest in National Loans or savings certificates. They like to put their money in a post office, where they consider that it is very safe and from which they can make withdrawals at any time. While it may impose an extra cost on the State, my view is that the interest on post office savings should be increased to at least 4 per cent.

I should like to pay a tribute to the Minister who has been most courteous since his appointment as Minister, and also to all the members of his staff and the officials of the Department, including postmen and sub-postmasters. Whatever grievance they may have, I am sure they are continuing to be courteous and to give good service to the State.

Mr. Faulkner

The Minister and his Department are to be complimented on their excellent work during the past year. Few Government Departments are as close to the people in their day-to-day affairs as this one is and few give as much satisfaction. The fact that a single error made by the Post Office is regarded as news proves that the officials make very few errors. When the many and varied aspects of the work of the Post Office and the large number of people employed by it are taken into consideration, its record is one of which we may be proud.

I should like to support the Deputies who pleaded for some kind of pension scheme for auxilliary postmen. The Minister might give that matter consideration so that some suitable type of pension could be worked out.

In the debate on this Estimate there has been the usual spate of criticism of Radio Éireann. Far be it from me to pose as a defender of Radio Éireann or to suggest that it is a perfect organisation, or even nearly perfect but, in dealing with this matter, we should at least try to be fair and take into consideration the various difficulties which Radio Éireann has to face. If we have criticism to offer we should see to it that it is constructive. If we feel that Radio Éireann is not doing its job as it should our objective should be to improve the service. Constant destructive criticism will not help and the fact that the criticism is made year after year would seem to show that is is not helping to improve the position.

If we compare Radio Éireann with other radio services such as the B.B.C. we should be prepared to compare other aspects, for example, the budget available to the B.B.C. and the budget available to Radio Éireann, or would it be correct to say that the difference between them is so vast that they do not bear comparison? We should also be prepared to compare the good programmes of Radio Éireann with the good programmes of other services and not the good programmes of other services with what are considered the bad programmes of Radio Éireann.

There is such a wide variety of taste with regard to radio programmes that what would be an excellent programme in the opinion of one person would be regarded as an awful programme by another. It is impossible to satisfy all of the people all of the time. During the debate, B.B.C. programmes were cited as excellent from the cultural and production point of view. If we are to pick and choose from Radio Éireann programmes we could cite programmes which are excellent from every point of view. It must be recognised that, bearing in mind the variety of taste in this matter, the programmes mentioned above, excellent though they may be, would find very little favour with people who would prefer, for example, programmes from Radio Luxembourg.

I would not have spoken on this matter at all were it not for the fact that, having listened to the debates on the Estimates for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for a number of years, I am inclined to the view that these destructive attacks, if I may put it that way, are made, not necessarily because they are justified but for a number of other reasons. It appears to be a popular attitude to adopt and it is a relatively safe target from a political point of view. One can always be sure of support for these attacks from people outside, not because our people generally are opposed to Radio Éireann as a whole but because many people think there are, for example, too many concert programmes on Radio Éireann and, on the other hand, many people think there are not enough.

Some people believe there are too many programmes in the Irish language while others feel there are not enough. Young people would like to have popular hits played all day while older people would feel that they could get too much of them. If we take, for example, Radio Luxembourg, it does not face the same type of criticism because all its programmes are of a similar level and one knows before one switches on to that station exactly what to expect. On the other hand, Radio Éireann, being a national station, must try to cater for all tastes.

Attacks are made on Radio Éireann because some of us would like to pose as cultural experts, if there is such a thing, as people who know about and appreciate the finer things of life. We discuss direction and presentation of the subject matter of programmes in a learned manner and also in a relatively safe manner because while we may not know very much about it we are secure in the knowledge that those who listen to us do not know very much about it either. As a general rule when the people who adopt this attitude hear mention of Gaelic culture they immediately surround it by inverted commas and term it definitely non-U.

These attacks are made because unfortunately we still have among us people who believe that anything produced in this country cannot be of good quality. We have had this same criticism over the years in connection with various Irish products such as Irish shoes, Irish clothing, Irish-made machinery, and so on. That is not now the case because we have tangible evidence of their quality from the fact that we can export these goods and compete in foreign markets. However, some of us still feel the need for a whipping pole and what better and safer whipping pole than Radio Éireann?

For a number of years we have had a man of first grade qualifications and exceptional capabilities as Director of Radio Eireann in the person of Mr. Gorham. He was a man of international repute and if he was not able to satisfy the critics with regard to programmes there must have been reasons for it. Was it shortage of money? If it was, are we willing to supply the deficiency? Are we willing to vote money? Do we agree with Mr. Roth when he states that as a result of a survey a substantial proportion of the 90% who tune in to Radio Eireann in this country are tuned in to it all the time? If we do not agree with that are we prepared to state that these surveys are a waste of time or that they are deliberately rigged?

Some Deputies who criticise Radio Eireann are not prepared to accept the veracity of these surveys but they themselves have admitted here that they turn off "that thing" as they call Radio Eireann, after the news. If they turn it off after the news they cannot have heard the remaining programmes; yet they come in here and ask us to accept their judgment on Radio Eireann, a judgment which can have no basis at all if they do not listen to the programmes.

I agree that there are many flaws in Radio Eireann, that there are many flaws in various programmes broadcast by Radio Eireann but if we are going to criticise Radio Eireann—and I am very much in favour of criticism if it is directed towards improving our programmes—we should criticise it constructively. The type of carping criticism which we are used to hearing over the past number of years with regard to our own Station should be left aside.

As I stated when speaking on the Irish Television Bill, this service cannot open too soon. In the northern part of the country where there are numerous television sets there is considerable anxiety regarding the effects of the programmes on our children. Parents do their best to restrict the viewing to what is suitable but they find it very difficult to do this because it is impossible to know what the content of a programme is from its name. Very often we find that in programmes which appear to be safe there is much which is at variance with our moral code and with our way of life.

Mr. Roth has announced that a code of advertising policy has been worked out. I am very glad to hear that. We should be extremely careful not to allow our people to be exploited as they appear to be exploited in television programmes at present available to us in which outrageous claims are being made for certain products. It may be said that nobody will believe these things but the very fact that this type of material is consistently being put across and this type of claim made makes it obvious that there are enough gullible people to believe them.

In the course of a speech here, Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde mentioned that all our television sets were being imported. Apparently he did not realise sets are being made in this country. I am particularly anxious to correct the impression that may have been created that television sets are not being made here; in fact they are being made in my constituency.

Mr. Coogan

In keeping with every Estimate that has been put to this House there is an increase in this Estimate. However, one thing in favour of this Vote is that it is an investment. It is in good hands in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, a Department which has been charged with making itself pay so we cannot hold an increased demand against them.

With telephone traffic on the increase, the Minister should examine the possibility of giving a living wage to that group of workers known as Sunday and week night telephone attendants. It is scandalous that they have not been offered an increase on their 2/- an hour. Is it because they are not an organised group that they are being exploited? It is either accepted or they are told to get out. There are not so many involved and the Minister should take the charitable view.

There is one matter I am sorry I must raise in view of the fact that we have a decent man as Minister, a man who has always been most courteous. It is the question of the appointment of an auxiliary postman in Carna, County Galway. Last week I asked a question here. I asked the Minister for Social Welfare if the name of Martin Creane, Culleen, Carna, County Galway, was recommended for the post of auxiliary postman in the Carna post office in the local employment exchange. The Minister in his reply dealt with a temporary auxiliary postman in Carna. I did not ask him about a temporary postman.

The man to whom I have referred was turned down. He has an excellent record in the F.C.A. He is a young man. He is the father of five children. He was turned down in favour of a single man. The answer I was given last week was that Martin Creane was not available. It was said he was physically unfit. That was for the temporary post, but that was not the question I asked. I intend to probe this matter until I get a satisfactory reply.

It is believed locally—I do not suggest that the Minister was a party to it—that there was political pull in the appointment that was made. I do not know at what part of the line the pull occurred, but I should like the Minister to examine the matter to see if he can discover what happened along the line. This man was submitted for the post. It is rather strange that a certain politician and a certain relationship have been coupled with this appointment. I know the Minister is a decent man. I shall raise this question again. I have before me a letter in reference to an appointment about which I was inquiring on 16th July, 1960. It was not an appointment of a temporary nature, as the Minister for Social Welfare suggests.

I shall tune in now to Radio Éireann. On a previous occasion on this Estimate I asked the Minister if he would consider giving more frequent news by way of news flashes. The reply I got was that there was no public demand. I do not know if the demand grew since, but we now have a news flash at 10 a.m. Would the Minister give us a few more news flashes at 8.30 a.m. and 9 p.m.?

Now that television is a "must", will the Minister let us know what the licence fee will be. A man who knows his stuff has been appointed to a key position. Equally, a man who knows his stuff has been put in charge of drama. There is a possibility that the Director may bring with him a United States mentality in favour of sponsored programmes. I do not know if Deputies are familiar with the American programmes on television. In the midst of a very interesting programme one is suddenly told what kind of soap he should use, or the ladies are told what kind of powder they should use. The programme is interrupted every two or three minutes for advertising. Sponsored programmes carry all the expenses in America and there is no licence fee. I hope we will not have programmes here in which we will be told what soap to use, what tobacco to smoke, what powder the ladies should use to powder their noses. We should avoid that type of programme. We should encourage amateur dramatic societies on television. We have excellent dramatic competitions all over the country. There is some very good material and it is about time both radio and television helped these groups.

We in the West may find ourselves hampered from the point of view of choice of programme. But we will still have to pay our licence fee. We will not have the advantage, as they have on the East coast, of tuning in to some other station as we can do with wireless at the moment. As one Deputy said, it is bad enough to have to listen without having to look. The standard will have to be high. The project is in good hands. The only danger is that the American mentality might be introduced. I sincerely hope it will not.

There is one matter to which the Minister might bend his energies. Very often people suffer embarrassment in post offices because of the lack of privacy. Those behind in the queue are aware of the amount of help being sent home by a husband or a daughter in England or how much is being put into post office savings. Such business is private and the Minister should do something to remedy the present position. It is not the fault of the officials. I suggest the erection of a few cubicles.

Every day we hear demands for a five-day week. I do not ask for a five-day week for postal workers but I think they are entitled to at least one half day in the week. It is overdue. There is hardly a group in the country not entitled to a weekly half day, but the postal authorities are not prepared to grant it. Of course, it may not be easy to do so. When I raised this question two years ago I was told the matter was under active consideration. I do not know what that means, since we have not got anywhere in two years. I should like the Minister to look into that.

Before I conclude, I should like to pay tribute to the Minister for his courtesy on any occasion I had reason to approach him. I should also like to pay a similar tribute to his efficient officials.

Mr. McQuillan

The first point I should like to mention has been dealt with by a number of Deputies, and I shall not delay the House very long on it. I support the claim made by the subpostmasters for proper arbitration. The Minister is familiar with the position. There seems to be a clash of views between his Department and the subpostmasters with regard to the conciliation available at present. My information is that the subpostmasters believe that the consultative council which is functioning is a complete failure as a negotiating body. They wish to get the same type of arbitration facilities as are available to the Garda, the Civil Service and so on.

In view of the fact that the subpostmasters and their employees are doing such excellent work, we should not try to run this branch of the service "on the cheap." It is very unfair to the people concerned. I know there are contrasts. You will find some postmasters with a substantial income from a shop or some other source, but you will also find the opposite—that very little business is done apart from the post office work. It is absolutely unchristian to expect people to live on the income they have from some of these appointments. I know that every Minister—not this Minister alone—has taken the view that the Post Office is a commercial concern and must pay its way. I am not denying that but I am on a point of much greater importance—that everybody is entitled to a decent wage. It is a very bad example for the State to set. Subpostmasters and subpostmistresses cannot afford to pay reasonable wages to their staffs. Young staff, immediately they receive a certain amount of training, leave the country to obtain a just reward for their services elsewhere. That is another source of emigration.

The most important thing I wish to raise concerns the telephone service. The telephone service is absolutely scandalous, and a great deal of the blame can be attached to the Department for their failure to pay the night operators in the various exchanges. I know of exchanges in the West of Ireland where it is not a surprise to any individual making a night call to have to wait for three-quarters of an hour to get an answer from the exchange.

That is not good enough. On the one hand, the cost of evening calls is reduced in the hope that more people will use the phone at that time, but on the other hand, the people operating the phone service during that period are underpaid. We cannot expect service from night operators who are badly paid. They have long hours, and night service is never pleasant. In spite of that, their remuneration is scandalous. My criticism is in respect of the service after six o'clock. I have made inquiries in the various counties in the West and I have found that this situation obtains in Roscommon, Galway, parts of Mayo, and in Sligo and Leitrim. It is time the public got a proper night telephone service.

The second point I wish to raise in connection with the telephone service is the long delay in dealing with applications. I had a specific example. It was the case of a man in my constituency engaged in the building industry who gives employment to 23 people. His men were engaged in building contracts within a radius of 20 miles of where he lives. It was essential for him to have a telephone in his office, and he made application for one. In spite of the fact he was giving that amount of employment, it was no less than eight months before he got a phone. I had to take the matter up with the Department on a couple of occasions. I was informed that all telephone applications have to be dealt with strictly in order of the application list.

I should like to put this to the Minister. Surely there should be some form of priority for a person needing a phone for his business over people who require one for domestic or pleasure purposes? I know there are many housewives who like to have the telephone to order meat and provisions. I think it is very desirable that that service be available to them; but, when there is such a delay, they should not get priority over those who need a phone for their business. I gather that this delay also applies to professional people. To use an expression used by his own Party in the last election, I would urge the Minister to "get cracking".

Mr. Cunningham

Used successfully.

Mr. McQuillan

I agree. I hope the Minister will get cracking successfully on this issue of speeding up the installation of telephones. The demand is there now and it should be met. What puzzles me about the telephone system is this. In spite of the fact that there is a big increase in the number of subscribers and in the number of people who make calls, the cost of calls is going up all the time instead of being reduced. The cost of a long-distance call from Dublin to such places as Sligo, Cork, Roscommon, Galway and Ballina is far too high. It takes about 3s. 9d. to make a three-minute call from Dublin to Galway. To my mind that is an exorbitant charge. With the increase in the use of the public telephone it should be possible to reduce these charges.

On the question of post offices and subpostmasters and subpostmistresses, I should like to point out that there is considerable difficulty at times in post offices outside the urban areas with regard to the availability of revenue stamps. This Government can take credit—I feel sure they will not like it —for the fact that stamp duties have increased considerably during their terms of office. Stamps which used to be a shilling or two shillings have now gone up to £3, £4 or £5. It is bad enough to have had these increases with regard to these stamps but it is worse when it is impossible to get the stamps at certain times of the day. In small post offices in rural areas they are not available at all. In the bigger towns it is the practice, as far as I can establish, to have these stamps available only at certain hours of the day. If a solicitor goes in and wants £100 worth of Revenue stamps at 10.30 in the morning he is told they will not be available until 12 o'clock because the official who keeps the key to where the stamps are held is not available. I suggest that whenever an official is away arrangements should be made whereby some other member of the staff can issue these stamps. I have been asked by several people to bring this matter to the Minister's attention.

On Monday morning last it struck me as rather peculiar on the bank holiday to turn on Radio Éireann and find it silent. I thought Radio Éireann had grown up, that they were no longer in swaddling clothes. I turned to the B.B.C. and the services were there available, including news and musical programmes. The practice apparently is in Radio Éireann that if there is a bank holiday for the rest of the country, they take one too. I see no reason in the world why Radio Éireann should not work from 8 o'clock on the morning of a bank holiday the same as any other day. I can appreciate their closing down on the morning of Good Friday but they should not treat other bank holidays in the same way. It is not that I am enamoured of Radio Éireann programmes in general but sometimes a programme, good or bad, will lull one——

Mr. Moher

Or jar one.

Mr. McQuillan

It is much worse to find there is no noise good, bad or indifferent, even if it does annoy one as Deputy Moher says. It is definitely annoying to find that an organisation which has been given so much help and so much cushioning cannot make programmes available on a bank holiday morning. Despite the advent of television I think there will always be a great demand for the radio end of the thing. A large section of the community will not take any interest in television and consequently we should ensure that the programmes on Radio Éireann are of the highest order. As far as the House is concerned, opinions vary very much as to what we could describe as a good type of programme.

In any investigations I have made from putting questions to people I have found it is generally to the sponsored programmes on Radio Éireann people listen. Some years ago a check was made by the Minister of the listening public. I met a girl in O'Connell Street who asked me a few questions about what programmes I listened to. I have never heard what the results of that enquiry were. As far as I know they were never published. There were certain statements that Radio Éireann topped the list as far as the listening public was concerned. I suppose that was perfectly true. Radio Luxembourg came a close second. I am of the opinion that the reason why Radio Éireann came first was because of the sponsored programmes alone. If that is the case the reason Radio Éireann headed the list was because the sponsored programmes on it were the same as those on Radio Luxembourg. I think, therefore, a lot more attention must be given to the Radio Éireann programmes from 5 p.m. onwards.

I will not make any suggestion about it but I think the public are dissatisfied in the main with the other programmes on Radio Éireann. I shall mention particularly the Farmers' Forum. I doubt very much if that programmes has any bearing on real conditions that obtain in parts of rural Ireland. I know a considerable number of small farmers who turn off the wireless in irritation when that programme comes on the air.

I should like to say a few words on the news programmes from Radio Éireann. Deputy Coogan is anxious that Radio Éireann should have news flashes. I agree with that, provided we do not get stale news. I listened on occasions to the news from Radio Éireann at 8 o'clock in the morning, at 9 o'clock, at 10 o'clock, 1.30 p.m., 6.30 p.m. and the late night bulletin and the very same items have been thrown up perhaps for a day and a half. I have seen items of news on the daily newspapers on a Wednesday morning. On a Thursday morning I have heard Radio Éireann announce the very same items as news. One would feel like tearing the wireless asunder. Apart from the staleness, the selection of what is news is also a cause for complaint. I do not know what type of individual is responsible or on what basis he selects the items but the general public could not be less interested in some of the news broadcast by Radio Éireann.

For instance, if there is a promotion in the Army from the rank of captain to commandant or from some other rank to lieutenant-colonel, that is given as a serious news item. On that basis, if a man is promoted from one rank to another in the Civil Service he is as much entitled to have his name mentioned by Radio Éireann. The same applies, even in greater measure, to a staff officer in a county council who is promoted to a County Secretary. But there is some kink about it when it comes to military title. That is news straight away on Radio Éireann. I suppose these people think it is the fighting Irish business all over again— that the public will have to hear a few more chaps have been promoted.

I feel that Radio Éireann news is badly presented. I have often felt that even if it were a little ambitious, the Minister should consider providing something like the B.B.C. have in their news roundup at 7 p.m. I think that the production and the timing of that cannot be touched and we would not expect under any circumstances Radio Éireann to compete. But something on those lines which would lighten up the news I think would be desirable, and then bring in what Deputy Coogan has suggested, the news flashes at more frequent intervals. But for goodness sake, do not bring in news flashes if we are to have repetition hour after hour of what has taken place three or four days ago.

There is no question of criticism of the Minister in his personal capacity. I think he should give immediate attention to the question of speeding up the installation of telephones for people who depend on the use of the telephone for their livelihood. I would ask him to have that gone into straight away.

Liam Ó Cuinneagáin

Ba mhaith liom comhgáirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire Poist agus Telegrafa as ucht an dul chun cinn a rinneadh i rith na bliana. Ba mhaith liom fosta comhgáirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Roinn mar gheall ar an dtacaíocht a tugadh don Ghaeilge.

I want to deal with just a few points, the first being the installation of telephones. This is the business of the Department. It is a paying business but it also helps the business of the community and, for that reason, every effort should be made to speed up the installation so that the backlog which is growing daily can be got rid of as soon as possible.

I understand that one of the problems, perhaps the greatest problem, is not the availability of funds but the recruiting of construction gangs for this work. We have enough people available to form these gangs and a further all-out effort should be made because not alone would the increased revenue from increased telephones augment the finances of the Department, but it would increase the business of the community and make it easier for people to do business without delay thereby helping the economic life of the country.

There is an outstanding demand, since the rearrangement of the telephone areas which increased the three-penny call area, for more lines. Certain areas have been improved, but many business firms are now seeking to have two or three lines where previously they had only one because it is irritating for customers to find the line engaged.

I think Radio Éireann should provide more information services for the general public. The discussion centres on what the music programmes are like and what the news programmes are like, but I feel that not enough information is given by Radio Éireann. By that I mean that there should be certain half hours per week where the details of, for instance, housing grants should be explained. The method of making application, the size of the grant and the conditions, etc., should be given over the radio so that people, who are very much interested in these things, would be familiar with them. That is one example. That would be repeated in regard to other Departments, such as the Department of Agriculture, etc. That would be something useful to the people.

When we take up the papers we see that such things as angling festivals and such functions are being held all over the country. I think Radio Éireann should do more of that. They do very little in comparison with the daily press. I think a special quarter of an hour or ten minutes each day should be devoted, especially during the summer, to telling people what is on, where it is on and when it is on.

Another speaker mentioned that television services were available in the north and eastern counties. That is quite true. We in Donegal are wondering whether the new television service will leave areas of Donegal without good reception even when the service is fully developed. At the moment, in the Inishowen area we have excellent reception from both Ulster television and the B.B.C. The quality of the programmes is another matter. Many people who can have good service from those two stations have not and will not install television because they do not want the programmes to enter their house where children and even grownup people are.

I myself live less than half a mile from a B.B.C. television boosting station, and I have not got a television and will not have one. I think it is proposed that one of the boosting stations for Irish television will be somewhere in County Leitrim or County Sligo. I am just wondering how far north in Donegal that will give reception and what the reception will be in the Innishowen area, where, as I indicated, there is excellent reception from the two existing stations. It will, I take it, be some time before that is known. There will be some time lag from the setting up of the main Kippure station until the stations are set up in the provinces. What will the position be in regard to the fees payable? Will television fees be payable by way of licences in areas where there is no reception? Immediately Irish television comes on the air must licence fees be paid throughout the twenty-six counties? I do not think it would be fair if that were so; I suggest that only when reasonably good reception becomes available should fees be imposed.

I am sure other speakers asked to have the pay of subpostmasters increased. Many of them are very poorly paid. They are supposed to live by other means. I think that should not be the position. In a small town, or a town, the subpostmaster's pay should be sufficient to keep himself and his family in decency. There are rural post offices where the subpostmaster receives as little as £135 per annum. What could anybody be expected to do for that money? Yet the subpostmaster is expected to check money going in and going out, look after telephones and letters and look after two postmen in the area, sell stamps and so on. There is room for vast improvement in wages or salaries and it is an improvement I should like to see carried out.

The position of auxiliary postmen causes a great deal of annoyance to Deputies and a great deal of hardship to the men themselves. Any man who has given eight or nine or ten years' service as an auxiliary postman should be established. What happens in some cases where auxiliary postmen have given even longer service than ten years, is that when there is an increase in business in the area and a consequent increase takes place in postal work making the district eligible for an established postman, the auxiliary postman is set aside and an established man taken on. That should not be and it is doing no good to the postal service to have these things happening all over the country.

I do not agree with many of those who have had nothing but criticism to make like the previous speaker. I should prefer to see some of that criticism backed up by concrete examples. I do not find any criticism of our radio programmes. Most people, while they may not be very enthusiastic about some of the programmes, are satisfied that these programmes are as good as, and in some cases a great deal better than, programmes from outside stations such as the B.B.C.

The main criticism I find is that reception in all parts of the country is not good and if something could be done about that it would eliminate much criticism. I hear very little criticism and I am sure there are others in the same boat and prepared to admit that is true. We have, however, criticism about interference, crackling when some interesting programme is on the air. Efforts have been, and are being, made to check that and to get users of electrical machinery to use suppressors. That effort has not met with the success it deserves and possibly, when concluding, the Minister could let us know what progress has been made during the year in that respect.

Mr. S. Brady

I shall be very brief. I should like to compliment the Minister on the efficient manner in which he has managed his Department. I refer especially to the improvements we have observed in recent years. Delivery of mail has considerably improved and there is also the very efficient way in which the Christmas mail is handled, particularly efficient in the case of last Christmas inasmuch as no mis-deliveries were complained of as in former years. There was less confusion although there was such a very big post.

The telephone service has improved very considerably especially since the new dialling system was introduced. One now makes immediate contact with the party one wants to speak to. I want to pay particular tribute to the extraordinarily efficient service on Cross-Channel calls. Contact is so prompt that it is astonishing. I congratulate the Minister on the increased number of public kiosks which provide a service that is greatly appreciated. As far as my observation goes that service is more respected now than formerly—I hope I am correct in that. There is less interference with kiosks.

Finally, I should like to refer to the commemoration stamps that have been recently issued. I am not certain if these stamps are produced in this country. I know that some years ago there was a complaint about the fact that some of the commemoration stamps were not produced in Ireland. They were surface-printed and were not at all as attractive as stamps that can be manufactured here. There is, in this country, as I am sure the Minister is well aware, a most up-to-date and efficient method of producing these recess stamps that are so attractive. There are in Dublin, to my knowledge, very skilled technicians in this form of printing. I hope that the stamps that will be issued in the near future will be produced in this country because the work done is certainly a great credit to those in the trade.

Mr. MacCarthy

The complaints that have been made about bad reception in certain parts of the country arise from the short-sighted policy adopted some years ago, with the help at times of some of those who made the complaints, of squashing the establishment of the shortwave station. Developments in recent times stress the importance of what would have been a great service to our people on missionary work throughout the world and to those who have taken part in many lands in various phases of international activity. A shortwave station would have kept them in touch with their homeland and some of the complaints now being made would not have been necessary.

I should like to join with those who have spoken about auxiliary postmen. Up to recently their service was part-time service. Their principal complaint was that when any changes were made they were the first to suffer and after long service received no pension. I presume they will now qualify for the contributory old age pension because generally the Minister and the Post Office officials were lenient towards auxiliary postmen and kept them on until they were 70 years of age in all cases where that was possible. They had no pension to look forward to after their years of work carrying on an essential national service in all kinds of weather.

Subpostmasters have been complaining for many years. Undoubtedly, they provide facilities in their premises for many branches of the work of the Post Office. Their hours are long and under recent developments will be still longer. The Minister has shown consideration and has been making improvements in the postal services and will, no doubt, in due time give consideration to any good case that is made.

I am glad to note that in recent times advertising of Irish Products is done through Irish song and music to a much greater extent than has been the case. That development should continue. Episodes from our history through the dramatic art of our people are receiving a fair space now in presentations. Rural Ireland particularly is tuning in to a great extent to Radio Éireann to listen to the very informative lectures and other programmes which are of help to them from day to day.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

Let me say at the outset that I am very pleased on behalf of the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, from the top ranking officers to the people who man the lower grades, for the generous tributes that have been paid, in full measure, to their courtesy, ability, diligence and integrity, by the Deputies from all sides of the House during this debate. I should like to add my own tribute to them for the work they do in providing at all times, day and night, and in all areas, remote and otherwise, the services which the Department provides for the people as a whole.

I should like now to deal with some of the points made in the debate. In opening the debate for the Opposition, Deputy McGilligan complained that I did not give sufficient information about the proposed television service. He said that I had devoted only 2½ pages of my opening speech to that service and he asked for particulars of the advances made by the new Broadcasting Authority since its establishment. Apparently, he wanted to get in greater detail the decisions that have already been taken by that authority and the progress that they have made towards providing a nationwide television service.

I want to say here and now that I deliberately refrained from commenting on such matters because they are entirely for the Broadcasting Authority. The Authority has been set up, among other things, to establish and run the service on a self-supporting basis and in my view we must give them a reasonable time to do the job. What they pay for programmes and what they charge for advertisements will be their responsibility. The figures may or may not approximate to the tentative figures mentioned when the Broadcasting Bill was before the House. That, to my mind, is quite unimportant if, as I believe, the Authority can make the service pay its way within a number of years. As I pointed out before, the majority of the Television Commission were satisfied on this point and so were the private interests that were anxious to provide a television service for us.

The number of live programmes must necessarily be modest at the outset and I am not going to interfere with the Authority on this score because I am quite sure that they will do their utmost to provide the maximum proportion of live programmes within their resources. They must be allowed, as I have already stated, to go about their job in their own way and they will not be tied to any of the tentative estimates of programme costs made before they were set up. To the extent that they may decide to spend more on programmes they will no doubt be guided by what revenue they expect to get from advertising.

The service is being established in the belief that it can be made to pay its way and we have still no reason to doubt that this can be done but, of course, only time will tell.

Many Deputies speaking in the debate gave a good deal of their time to discussing the affairs of the Broadcasting Authority. Some of them dealt with the television service and others with the sound broadcasting service. Some Deputies seemed to think the new Director General was concerned solely with television and also that the staff of the Authority were still members of the Civil Service attached to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. If any of them are at the moment, they will not always be. The transfer has not fully taken place but in a very short space of time all the staff of the broadcasting service will be the staff of the new Authority and will not be under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

The Director General and his staff are concerned with the organisation and the transmission of programmes of both services, sound broadcasting and television. It would be too early to give any indication as to what the programmes from the television station will be but it is a matter entirely for the Authority. During the course of the passage of the Broadcasting Authority Bill through the Oireachtas many Deputies complained bitterly that the Minister was written all over the Bill, that he had authority to interfere in many matters concerning the administration of the new Broadcasting Authority. I pointed out in the discussion on the various sections of the Bill that the Minister's powers to interfere or intervene were restricted by the Bill itself and that, as far as I was concerned personally, I would endeavour in the establishment of this Authority to give full freedom of action in the matter of decisions in regard to the administration of the services that would be placed under its control.

The same applies to censorship of programmes. We should trust the Authority and the House itself agreed, as a principle, that we should trust the Authority and allow it to handle censorship in consultation with the Film Censor. I have tried to give the House an indication of my attitude on all these matters and what I propose to do in the future in regard to the Authority. I have no power whatsoever to intervene in the day-to-day administration of the Broadcasting Service.

The question was raised of the non-reception of sound broadcasting programmes in certain parts of the country, especially in Wexford and southern areas. The statement I made last year in this regard was quoted, and all I can add now is that I have impressed upon the new Authority the necessity for dealing with this matter. This is also a matter solely for them. However, it is no easy problem with which to deal. There are technical reasons for this non-reception of programmes and in order to overcome the difficulty the Authority would have to spend a considerable amount of money. One Deputy asked during the debate whether the question of money was involved. It is a question of money and a question of deciding what means should be adopted to make certain that sound broadcasting programmes will be received all over the country.

In my opening speech I referred to the fact that the new sites we were acquiring for the television transmitters would be used in an attempt to solve this problem. If the Authority decided on the V.H.F. method of solving this problem, the booster stations, or whatever you care to call them, in the sound broadcasting service could be located on those sites. It is a fact, however, that the provision of the V.H.F. transmitters or boosters would cost a considerable amount of money.

Deputies from all sides of the House made reference to the telephone service. Many Deputies from rural areas impressed upon me the necessity for increasing the installation of telephones in farmers' houses in isolated rural areas and put up good arguments as to why that activity should be continued. Last year the Department of Posts and Telegraphs connected over 15,000 new telephone subscribers, which in itself was a record. When I came to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs a waiting list obtained and that waiting list had been in existence over a number of years. The Post Office authorities over the years had been making serious efforts to wipe out the arrears in applications for new telephones but the rate at which the applications came in was greater than that anticipated. That necessitated an increase in personnel attached to the Engineering Branch of the Department. They made every effort to catch up on the arrears but when the Post Office increased their efforts to catch up on the arrears in connections to new telephone subscribers it was found that the demand for new telephones increased also and the increase was much above the rate of installation. However, last year an all-out effort was made and the record number of over 15,000 new subscribers were connected.

That in itself creates a problem for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and for myself. Last year on this Estimate many Deputies raised the question of the long delay in handling trunk calls particularly at the Central Telephone Exchange in Dublin. I took note of the statements that were made then and had a consultation with the officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on this question. I found there were arrears of work on both long and short trunk circuit and that it was imperative, if we were to maintain an efficient telephone service, that much of the capital devoted to telephone development should now be expended on the micro-wave connecting links, on long trunks and on the short circuits, and that the energies of the Engineering Branch of the Department should be directed towards that end.

That is the policy the Department will follow in the immediate future. This year we are spending the extra £500,000 I have received from the Minister for Finance mainly on that kind of work. It will go mainly on the payment for new equipment to enable the Department to maintain an efficient telephone service for the people who are already connected. That means the Department will not be able for some short time to continue at an accelerated pace the connecting up of new subscribers. The House and every right thinking person will agree that it is essential that we should have an efficient telephone service for the business community and for social purposes. To cater for the business community, in particular, one must have a network to carry the traffic. Over the last two years the increase in traffic has been such that the present network is barely capable of carrying the business. In the next month or two the increase in traffic will be felt and we may not be able to provide an absolutely efficient service. However, in a short time, we will get ahead on that. It is absolutely essential that we should. We must plan to provide not alone an efficient network for present subscribers but also for future new subscribers.

I have been asked many questions in connection with the telephone service. It was suggested that the three minute minimum for trunk calls should be abolished and that we should have a four minute minimum. The three minute minimum is the internationally accepted unit for settling international accounts. It is of long standing and I do not intend to interfere with it.

Deputy Corry raised the question of nuisance calls. In all cases that are reported the Department and Garda do everything possible to trace the callers. Where the callers are identified they are prosecuted. A number of such prosecutions takes place every year. It is very difficult to catch these people but every effort is made to find them and hold them responsible for their actions.

Mr. Sweetman

What does the Minister do about people who dial wrong numbers in the early hours of the morning? My number is next to that of a Garda and, at least, once a week I am pulled out of bed at 3 a.m.

Mr. Hilliard

The Deputy must accept the apologies of the caller for that. We expect a further decline in telegram traffic. It would appear as if the decline will be mostly in internal traffic. The Post Office keep the telex service under review all the time. Its growth is being watched and whatever steps are necessary in order to keep the service up to date will be taken at the appropriate time.

The question of sub-postmasters was raised by several Deputies and many of them pressed for arbitration for sub-postmasters. Deputy Blowick made a very strong plea. So did Deputy O.J. Flanagan. Deputy Blowick asked me if I thought sub-postmasters were living in the lap of luxury? Of course I do not, any more than any other section of the community is living in the lap of luxury. Most sections have to work and they get a reasonable return for their labours. Very few in our community live in the lap of luxury. Does Deputy Blowick think that, because other sections have got arbitration, they are living in the lap of luxury? There are many sections that have not got arbitration. Farmers complain bitterly that they have no method by which their income can be assessed. Small traders, artisans and tradesmen provide a useful service for the community, but they have not got arbitration.

There is a history attached to this matter of arbitration for sub-postmasters. In 1949, the then Government, of which Deputy Blowick was a member and Deputy O.J. Flanagan was a supporter, ruled out sub-postmasters from participation in arbitration and conciliation. They ruled them out because they were not regarded as civil servants. Apparently the sub-postmasters union did not press the matter until 1952 and 1953. Further correspondence on this question of arbitration took place in 1956. Through the good offices of the Minister at the time the sub-postmasters consultative council was set up. But they did not get arbitration or conciliation. Indeed, the then Government went to great pains at the time to take conciliation out and put in the word "consultative" in the descriptive title of the council set up.

The same reasons were advanced then as were advanced in 1949 for the refusal to admit subpostmasters into the arbitration scheme. It was contended subpostmasters were not civil servants. They are appointed by answering advertisements which appear in local sub-offices. They make application by filling in a form and they contract to perform certain work for the Department of Post and Telegraphs. They contract to do that work under a certain system. They offer the premises. They must offer the premises as otherwise they would not be considered at all. They promise to conform to the rules and regulations applicable to the office. They offer to provide the service the Post Office demands of them. All that is written in in the agreement. They agree to accept the payment under the system laid down by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. One would need to be very well versed in Civil Service practice to have a clear picture of how the salary a subpostmaster receives is arrived at. Last year the subpostmasters union did not like my description of subpostmasters as contractors. I used the term "contractor" in the sense I have now explained to the House. They enter into a contractual arrangement with the Department to perform certain work.

The subpostmasters union asked again for arbitration in 1959. They were refused for the same reasons as they were refused in 1949 and 1956. But that refusal does not imply they are living in the lap of luxury. All it means is that, as far as the Government and the Minister of the day are concerned, the subpostmasters claim to arbitration is not being acceded to. The position at the moment is that this question is not under consideration.

Other matters, such as conditions and pay, are the subject of a claim by the subpostmasters union before the consultative council. Some Deputies complained about the length of time it took to decide some claims. It takes a long time to deal with some aspects of the claims made by civil servants and other people. Even if the subpostmasters had arbitration, matters would not, in my opinion, be accelerated. The consultative council is still in existence; these matters can be discussed there and, if agreement is reached, I believe sanction is automatic. A decision has recently been made on a claim by the subpostmasters for an increase in the minimum rate of payment for small offices.

I am precluded from making any comment on the proceedings of the council since they are treated as confidential. It is not a fact, as alleged by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, that the sequence of council meetings was interfered with in any way by the Department. There was only one occasion on which a meeting was not held. It arose out of a dispute between the sub-postmasters and the Department. The matter was resolved and explained to the union at the council meeting. The meeting was deferred on another occasion because the subpostmasters union asked that it be deferred. Those were the only occasions on which there was any disagreement about the holding of a meeting. The regulations under which the Council was set up in 1956 provide for three-monthly meetings. You would have to have business for each meeting. It would be senseless having a meeting if there was nothing to discuss. I do not think there is anything further to say on subpostmasters.

The question of postmen was raised. The established postman has a pension scheme, and gratuities are payable to other postmen. Deputies know the changes that have been made reducing the qualifying period from 15 years to seven for the unestablished and auxiliary postmen. To initiate a contributory pension scheme for every postman would present many difficulties. First, we must consider the manner in which auxiliary postmen enter the service. They come in on a list supplied by the labour exchange. The person appointed can be of any age from 18 to 50, and over 50 in certain excepted cases. For a long time the Department has been trying to get uniformity of hours for auxiliary postmen generally. They try to fit that in with the reorganisation of postal services which has been going on over the years with the object of providing a six day delivery in all posts. I have not gone into this question of providing a contributory pension scheme for auxiliary postmen, but I can see the difficulty in providing any scheme that would be of material benefit.

Other minor matters were raised concerning postmen in rural areas. I do not think I am called upon to deal with the question of providing motor scooter transport for postmen. There is no change in the regulations in that regard. The local postman, if he wishes, can use motorised transport. There are many difficulties facing a postman in that regard. There is the provision of the transport itself, the delivery of letters down long, narrow lanes and so on. There is also the question of replacements for the holiday season. I would rather see more men employed than have fewer men using mechanically propelled vehicles.

Deputy Norton asked me about the grants payable out of funds and gratuities under the Superannuation Acts. Part-time officers whose grants are payable from the Minister's Special Fund are already being given the benefit of the reduction in the qualifying period from 15 to seven years. Fulltime unestablished officers whose grants are paid under the Superannuation Acts cannot receive the benefit of the reduction in qualifying service until the passage of legislation. This is a matter for the Minister for Finance. The Deputy also asked me if I would break down the figure of 258 increase in staff in the Department. The break-down is: engineering staff, 179; telephonists 80. These are the main figures. There are some other minor increases and decreases. Deputy Norton also asked me about the building programme of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In my opening speech I gave some indication of our building programme in the year under review and the very near future. I do not think it would be wise now to take up the time of the House giving a long lists of all the places in which the Post Office plans to develop existing buildings or to erect new ones. I would point out that the Department plans ahead for two or three years at a time but the Office of Public Works actually prepares the drawings and arranges for the building.

Complaints have been made on many occasions in the past and during this debate concerning delays in the erection of particular buildings for the postal authorities. Some Deputies have complained as well that certain commencement dates have been behind schedule. We accept the information we get from the Office of Public Works as to commencement dates. In some cases plans have to be altered because of late decisions to have bigger buildings or in order to provide Post Office engineering staffs with additional facilities and equipment. On other occasions delays are due to extra work in the Office of Public Works in connection with the State's general building programme.

It must be remembered that the State had to set out to improve the housing facilities of our people. Long years of arrears in that work had to be overtaken. The building of national schools also had high priority and the State was vitally interested in improved school facilities. It is commendable to see that successive Governments not alone interested themselves in providing decent housing and schools but that they also tackled the problem of public building throughout the country. But of course private housing and schools always had prior claims on the capital available year by year. I can assure the House that insofar as my Department is concerned our aim is, as far as possible, to provide the country with offices that would meet the requirements of the public and that will add to the attractiveness of our local towns.

Deputy Norton asked me about the Central Sorting Office and quoted me as saying last year that I hoped the pile foundations would go down this year. Since then a decision has been taken that pile foundations will not be necessary and the question has now resolved itself as to when a start can be made on the erection of the office on a foundation without piles. I would not venture an opinion as to the commencement date but it is hoped to have the tenders for the erection of the steel frame work issued in the near future. The tender for the erection of the main building will then be decided upon without undue delay.

I was pressed by many Deputies to provide certain areas throughout the country with telephone kiosks and new sub-post offices. In that connection I should like to point out that my aim is to see the Post Office pays its way one year with another. Down through the years the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has refused to erect kiosks or to establish new sub-post offices in areas where it has been obvious the Department would be unlikely to get a fair return for the capital expended in the provision of such buildings.

That policy may appear to be hard on the rural community but as I have already explained, it is expected of the Department that it should pay its way. I would point out that the surplus which accrued each year to the credit of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is very modest if we compare it with the amount of capital invested and the amount of service given to the public, so that even the slightest variation in income would upset the balance at the end of any given year. As a matter of fact, in 1956 the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, said: "Indeed it would not be inappropriate that the Department should make some contribution by way of profit to the general Exchequer revenue."

The policy of the Department is, and I thoroughly agree with it myself, that so far as telephone kiosks are concerned, the Department will see to it that a kiosk will be erected wherever there is a prospect of its paying its way and the same applies to sub-post offices. You could not conduct the business of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on any other system; otherwise you would have to look for a subvention from the Exchequer to subsidise the working of the Post Office and I think that would be a very bad principle upon which to conduct the affairs of an important Department such as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

In that connection, it would be just as well for us to realise that this country is already provided with post offices on a more generous scale than in the great majority of postal administrations throughout the world. We have a post office on the average for every 1,250 persons.

There is an important matter which was raised here by Deputy Oliver Flanagan in connection with overcharging in telephone accounts. I should like to deal with that. I answered a question earlier in the year in connection with it and when one answers a question the information contained may not be sufficient to give a full picture of the situation that obtained. I should like first of all to put the matter in its proper perspective. Every quarter the Accounts Branch of my Department makes out accounts for some 33,000,000 local calls, three and a quarter million trunk calls, plus charges for phonograms, removals, etc. About 105,000 accounts are sent out and collected. Only in a tiny minority of cases are the accounts disputed.

The policy has been, and is, to consider carefully and sympathetically every inquiry or complaint and in cases, where there is a doubt, to give the subscriber the benefit of it. In this regard I believe that the Post Office can stand comparison with any other large organisation in regard to the manner in which it deals with such complaints. As regards faults in or affecting telephone meters, it appears that it has come as a surprise to many people that not only do such faults occur but that their existence is actually admitted by the Post Office. Of course, faults affecting meters do occur not only in the telephone service here but in every country that uses them.

Moreover, practically every other service which uses meters finds that they are subject to faults of some kind. One cannot achieve perfection in this field —at least not without prohibitive cost. The system has not been designed which will give 100 per cent. accuracy at all times. Meanwhile, the most we can do is to use the best equipment obtainable and to try to keep faults and errors to a minimum. I have already stated that we use equipment of the best quality and standard of accuracy obtainable and everything reasonably possible is done in the way of checks, proper maintenance, etc., to keep the number of faults to the lowest possible level.

Some concern has been expressed that it is not possible to say how many cases of faulty meters have occurred. I have already given the number of actual and suspected cases in which refunds were made and pointed out that the number is only a small fraction of the total number of accounts issued during the quarter in question. One of the difficulties in determining the precise number is that faults occur in equipment associated with the meters which may or may not affect the meter. It is difficult, therefore, to segregate and prove the probable from the doubtful case. I do not accept that the number of overcharging cases is serious or abnormal or that subscribers are likely to be overcharged unless they keep a record. Some people do keep records, but most are satisfied to compare their bills from one quarter to another.

The average quarterly bill for the ordinary household is not as big as some people imagine. In Dublin where the local calling rate is highest over 70 per cent. make less than three calls per day. Our experience is that any marked discrepancy from quarter to quarter in such accounts is quickly challenged. The Accounts Branch also keeps a watch on any abnormal changes which may suggest an error in the meter reading or recording apparatus. There are standing instructions that service must not be normally withdrawn when subscribers will not pay a disputed account. This cannot be adhered to in all cases. Finally, while I can give no guarantee that faults of the kind in question will or can be eliminated, I can assure the House that everything possible will be done to keep the number to a minimum to ensure as far as practicable that no subscriber will be overcharged.

Deputy T. Lynch made a suggestion in connection with telephone directories, that he wished to have established a system whereby a local trader or local group of people could have a local telephone directory of its own. I had the matter examined because I thought myself that it might be a commendable thing and I wanted to see whether there was any merit in it. It is very doubtful whether there is any demand for a local telephone directory at the present. The exclusive rights of publishing advertisements are vested in the agents appointed for the purpose and while that arrangement exists the publication of local directories is not permitted. If it were permitted, there would be a danger that they would continue to be used long after changes had been made in the numbers shown in such directories. On the whole I think that the present arrangement of having numbers shown in the official Post Office Directory is the best one.

General Mulcahy

May I ask the Minister could he waive it in relation to, say, those firms who issue locally a Christmas calendar where the thing would be issued yearly?

Mr. Hilliard

The law has something to say to it too—it is not permitted.

General Mulcahy

Well, a simple one-paragraph Bill would settle that.

Mr. Hilliard

Before I conclude I would like to deal with the complaint raised by Deputy Coogan of Galway. Apparently, he had a question down recently to the Minister for Social Welfare in connection with an application for an auxiliary postman's job at Carna in County Galway. Of course he complained about the answer the Minister gave to his question. I could not go into the merits or otherwise of what occurred between the Deputy and the Minister for Social Welfare. The Minister answered the question that was put to him, in my view. A vacancy occurred in Carna for a fulltime postman on the 7th February, 1960. The vacancy was covered by upgrading, temporarily, the auxiliary postman and his post was covered by a temporary officer.

Deputy Coogan alleges that the person appointed was appointed because of some political pull and that he did not get the post on merit. He cited the family circumstances of the person in whom he himself was interested. I am prevented from referring to the domestic circumstances of any of the applicants that applied for this post because the information was supplied to me in confidence by the Department of Social Welfare. Deputy Coogan's citation of the man in whom he was interested is quite correct and it is quite correct that the man who was appointed to the post by me is a single man. I stand over that, but he was the son of the auxiliary postman who was there for a long number of years and he was in fact the temporary officer in the post since the 30th November, 1959.

He is living in the house with his father and, as far as I am concerned, whenever a vacancy of such a nature occurs and the auxiliary postman has long service, I will do as much as I possibly can to appoint his son. That is not in strict conformity with Government direction in the matter. The Government direction is that normally the person in the greatest need and put forward by the labour exchange should get the appointment. For any exception to that I will accept full responsibility. I think I did what was right and proper in appointing this single man to this particular post and if Deputy Coogan consults his own supporters he will find that they are in agreement with the arrangement.

Mr. Jones

In regard to the gratuity payable to auxiliary postmen, is the Minister aware that in certain cases, if he retires voluntarily from the service and not through ill-health, it is not paid?

Mr. Hilliard

Some of those gratuities are based on a means test.

Mr. Norton

Not now.

Mr. Hilliard

If you give me a note of it I will have it inquired into.

Mr. Palmer

Has the Minister considered the question of raising the interest rate on investments in the Post Office?

Mr. Hilliard

That is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

Vote put and agreed to.