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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 1961

Vol. 190 No. 6

Finance Bill, 1961 (Committee Stage) —(Resumed).

NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 7:

Before section 12, but in Part 1, to insert a new section as follows:—

"(1) Subject to the provisions of this section there may be deducted from the emoluments of any office or employment to be assessed to tax, if defrayed out of those emoluments, any annual subscription or membership fee paid to a body of persons approved for the purposes of this section by the Revenue Commissioners.

(2) The Revenue Commissioners shall, on the application of the body, approve for the purposes of this section any body of persons, not of a mainly local character, whose activities are carried on otherwise than for profit and are solely or mainly directed to all or any of the following objects, that is to say—

(a) the advancement or spreading of knowledge (whether generally or among persons belonging to the same or similar professions);

(b) the maintenance or improvement of standards of conduct and competence among the members of any profession;

(c) the indemnification or protection of members of any profession against claims in respect of liabilities incurred by them in the exercise of their profession."

This amendment springs from the previous one. It endeavours to give effect to the principle of the previous amendment in a very minor respect. The purpose of the amendment is to permit the taxpayer engaged in business, who is a professional person, to charge up against his emoluments for tax purposes any subscription which he pays to a professional association, or body, of which he is a member. As I said on the last amendment, it is extraordinary that a young engineer or an architect say, who is a member of the Board of Works, or any other member of the considerable community of professional people engaged in employment, cannot claim as an allowable expense for tax purposes the subscription which he pays to a professional association, non-payment of which will mean that he will be struck off the professional register with the result that he will no longer be able to practise his profession. It springs from the rigid nature of Rule 9 about which we were speaking. This is the Rule so strongly condemned by judicial authorities and by the Royal Commission.

In relation to the previous amendment, the Minister was able to say that the British Chancellor had not acted upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Rule 9. He cannot say the same in relation to this amendment. The Minister, I am sure, is aware that the wording of the amendment is in fact borrowed from the British Finance, Act, 1958. I make no apologies for borrowing a section like this from the British precedent, because the Minister himself does it every year. Last year, we had an amendment to our Finance Bill which ran to two of these sheets and was taken in full from the British precedent.

In a broad sense, it is undesirable that we should be so much in the hands of the British in relation to these matters. It indicates that we fail to strike out on our own and adapt the tax code to our own purposes but in another sense, it is inevitable and in the very nature of things that so long as we continue to operate under the British Income Tax Act, 1918, we will have to remedy whatever defects come to light and are rectified by the British Chancellor.

Because of the rigid nature of Rule 9, the technical argument has been that an employed person paying a subscription to his professional association does not incur that expense in the performance of the duties of his office, which is absurd and quite unrealistic. There is a growing number of professional persons in employment, generally speaking, the class of person for whom it is desirable to provide every possible encouragement and independence; the class of person who stands on his own two feet and does not look to the State for this or that; the class of person who is, in fact, the backbone of the community.

I regret that the Minister did not accept the previous amendment, but I will concede at least that he was able to say that notwithstanding the report of the Royal Commission, the British Chancellor took no action in that matter. He cannot say that on this amendment, which is simple and straightforward. It does not provide for allowance for tax purposes of membership fees or subscriptions paid to any body of persons who may be self-appointed as a professional association. It restricts the allowance to a body of persons approved by the Revenue Commissioners as complying with certain conservative provisions laid down. In subsection (2), it is restricted to a body of persons whose activities are carried on otherwise than for profit, for the purpose of the advancement or spreading of knowledge and the maintenance or improvement of standards of professional competence and behaviour.

There can be only about 20 or 25 such bodies in this country. I think I read somewhere that, in Britain, after this provision was introduced, 3,000 bodies came to light which claimed this concession for their members. There is no possibility of such a number of applications in this country. There is, perhaps, one slight defect in the amendment in that it does not lay down any machinery for appeal against a decision of the Revenue Commissioners, but, on that score, I feel confident that the general provisions of the Income Tax Act will apply, and an appeal from a decision of the Revenue Commissioners in this matter would lie, in the first instance, to the Special Commissioner for Income Tax, and the usual provisions of a case stated and an application to the courts would be held to apply.

The amendment is very reasonable and very conservative and I hope the Minister will see his way to accepting it.

Deputy Byrne mentioned the case that is not ruled out under Section 20 because it was shown that the taxpayer is obliged to be a member of the body in order to obtain and retain his employment. In that case, the expense, whatever it might be, is allowed in present circumstances. The whole thing depends on what is necessary and not necessary. The Deputy says that this section was taken broadly from Section 16 of the British Finance Act, 1958, but on comparing the amendment with the Act referred to, I find that he has left out two very important provisos in the British Act.

After all, if the Deputy is going to follow the British Act, he should at least let us know why he does not follow it completely and why he thought it wise to leave out these provisos. The first proviso in the British Act is that if the activities of a body are to a significant extent directed to objects other than those mentioned, the Commissioners may make an apportionment. I want to draw attention to the time and labour that would be spent by officials of the Revenue Commissioners in dealing with that proviso. It then goes on to deal with another point and says that a fee shall not be deducted, unless the subscription is paid to a body whose activities, so far as they are directed to the objects mentioned, are relevant to the office or employment. Again, that is a very involved proviso which would give a great deal of trouble to the officials concerned.

I might mention that this amendment, as drafted, probably would not cost a great deal of money. I think, though, that the cost of administration would be a great deal more, and in any proposal put before this House for the spending of money, or the giving of money for relief, we should all like to see that at least the cost of that expenditure is a small proportion of either the money taken in or given out.

I agree with the Deputy that many provisions brought in here are taken from British Acts. I do not think we should deny ourselves the advantage of any clause in a British Act if we think it is needed here but, on the other hand, we should not follow them blindly. I think in this case they were pursuing a course that was not by any means a good course. I quite agree that the idea behind the proposal is a praiseworthy one and I should like very much to give it further consideration but the big difficulty I see is the difficulty with regard to administration. It is only a difficulty with regard to administration but it is a really big difficulty in this case.

I mentioned several times here already on Committee Stage that the Commission on Income Tax are considering this whole question of expenses. If they consider this particular one, I can only hope that they will give us a workable scheme to cover it. If they do, then I have no doubt at all it will be adopted. If they do not report, I should be inclined to ask the Revenue Commissioners to consider the matter again to see if they can give us a more workable scheme than the British one. I think the British scheme is very cumbersome and gives rise to a great deal of queries, questions and disagreements in administration.

I do not know if it is possible to get a simple scheme. I should like to get a scheme which is more simple than the one the British have worked out. It may look as if I am trying to shelve a lot of the amendments by asking that we wait for the Commission to report. As the Commission are about to report on all this question of allowances, I think it is a fair request enough to make. They may give us something we can adopt. I think we should wait until we hear from them on this matter.

A Deputy

When is the Commission likely to report?

I think before the end of this year but I cannot say definitely.

The Minister says he will consider this amendment. I know what was in Deputy Byrne's mind. He described some of the organisations and the type of people who can claim this concession in the British scheme. Does the Minister know whether or not there is a concession in regard to trade union subscriptions paid by members of a trade union ? Also, would this amendment, if adopted, or some other amendment, include a concession in respect of trade union subscriptions ? Furthermore, would this concession apply to the full contribution paid by workers under the Social Welfare Acts?

I cannot say that I know exactly what the position is. I think we would only consider the part applicable to superannuation in the trade union subscription.

I assume that would apply also in respect of the organisations Deputy Byrne mentioned ?

Let us take the I. M. A. which we sometimes claim is partly professional and partly trade union. I do not think we would bother about the trade union part. The subscription for protection against action and so on would be one that would be applicable, I think.

Will the Minister, in any amendment he may consider, bear in mind what I have just said?

Certainly. That would have to be considered.

Does the Minister now propose to wait for a report from the Committee and not do anything as an interim measure on this Bill?

The proposed concession is confined to bodies of a purely national character and it might be possible that some of the local type trade unions would be restricted on that account. For my own part, I would certainly consider it proper that trade unions should be included in the scope of the concession, particularly because wage earners and salary earners are so harshly treated by the provisions of our tax code. All trade unionists are either wage earners or salary earners.

It is, of course, a fact that this amendment does not follow Section 16 of the British Finance Act of 1958 right through to the end. The apportionment of a professional subscription in respect of that portion of it which may not be applicable to the spreading of knowledge is, I suggest, a very pedantic and niggardly approach to this matter. It is a sort of conservative approach to reform which I would appeal to the Minister to discard.

Throughout this discussion, the Minister stated that if an employee were obliged to pay a professional subscription to retain his employment, such subscription was allowable against Schedule E, but in this respect we are up against the very rigid interpretation placed on Rule 9. I could advise the Minister on many cases of professional persons in employment whose subscription to their professional association is not allowable. In so far as it may be allowed in the ordinary case by concession, I think it is right to say that the law of the land should not be administered on a concessionary basis, where that is avoidable. In general terms, it is not desirable that the law should be departed from. It is up to us in this House to lay down what concessions shall be granted and face up to the necessity of revising our tax codes to that end.

If the Minister considers that this proposal would be expensive to administer, there is an alternative. It would be very easy, indeed, to list specifically the 12 or 15 principal professional associations whose members are employed in this country. It would be very easy to bring in a new section saying that subscriptions paid to the following bodies shall be allowed for income tax purposes :— the Medical Association, the Incorporated Law Society, Cumann na nInnealtoiri and the Institute of Chartered Accountants. There are no more than 12 or 15 such bodies in all. However, in so far as the Minister has indicated a certain limited measure of approval of the principle, perhaps something has been achieved by causing him to think on new lines in relation to the matters we discussed in this debate. I think that is a good day's work. Last night, I said that a wind of change should blow through the offices of all concerned with taxation in this country.

I do not want to suffer under the accusation of the Deputy that I am niggardly in my approaches. It is not my approach. I am speaking about the Deputy's amendment. If the approach is niggardly, it is the Deputy who is at fault.

The amendment deals with the advancement of knowledge. I would take it therefore that if a trade union such as the printers' trade union had a manual giving information, it would be exempted. I do not know how sub-paragraph (b) of subsection (2) applies — the maintenance or improvement of standards of conduct and competence among the members of any profession. Sub-paragraph (c) reads:

"the indemnification or protection of members of any profession against claims in respect of liabilities incurred by them in the exercise of their profession."

That was referred to in the Medical Association where they have a medical protection society. You pay a subscription and if you make a mistake in treating a patient, they will defend you. That would be included in this amendment. Therefore, if trade unions came in, I do not see under this amendment anything that would be included except the subscription to a trade manual or a trade journal.

That would not be the ideal amendment to include the type of people I suggest. I would ask the Minister to consider, in any further changes, the position of these people.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Before I leave the income tax part, I want to give notice that I shall bring in an amendment on Report Stage. Deputies who took an interest in the Charities Bill will know that the maintenance of graves will be a charity, and so on. That is all right from this on. I shall introduce an amendment on Report Stage to meet the position where a fund has been established before now and where a fund is being administered from this on.

Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Section 12 is the section which implements that part of the Budget statement in which the Minister announced his intention to increase the tax on tobacco and cigarettes to bring in an extra £930,000 this year. The effect of the Minister's increase in duty on tobacco means he will take this year out of the pockets of tobacco smokers, on the assumption that consumption is more or less the same as last year, £4 million more than was taken from them before he acceded to office.

Four million pounds is a pretty substantial sum. It arises because of the various increases which the Minister has imposed in Budget after Budget on tobacco. One is inclined to wonder sometimes whether the whole basis on which the Minister has been framing Budgets, one after the other, of putting everything on tobacco, is not overbalancing the whole picture. The proportion of our total revenue now accruing from tobacco is such that if anything were to happen to that source of revenue, we would be in the position of having put all our eggs, or virtually all our eggs, in one basket.

I oppose this section because the Minister and his Party, in the 1957 general election campaign, made it clear they felt taxes were then too high. This is the final instalment of successive increases in tobacco tax imposed by the Minister since he acceded to office.

Question put.
The Committee divided : Tá, 53; Nil, 28.

Tá.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine B.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Teehan, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.

Níl.

  • Belton, Jack.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Wycherley, Florence.
Tellers : Tá, Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman; Níl, Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
Sections 13 and 14 agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed : "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Has the Minister received any representations that the scope of Section 15 is not sufficient to cover the entire category of mechanical appliances now in use?

The only ones that are covered by this are what are known as dumpers and fork lifters. I did not receive a deputation.

Does the term "fork lifters" cover the platform carrier as well? As I understand it, the fork lifter operates by sticking two prongs into, say, a cask of Guinness and lifts it in that way. However, there are platform carrier machines which are loaded not in quite the same way as the fork lifter. I am not clear whether the section covers them or not. Perhaps the Minister would look into the point between now and Report Stage?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 16.
Question proposed : "That Section 16 stand part of the Bill."

This section deals with driving licences. As Deputies who took an interest in the Road Traffic Bill may be aware, it will be possible to get a driving licence for more than one year. This provision is to regulate that and also to make a refund, if the driving licence is surrendered after one or two years.

I suppose it is a fact that if the relevant provision were not included, you would not get people to take it out for more than one year?

That is right.

Has the Minister any function in this matter ? If he has, has he considered the issue of driving licences at particular dates in the year, the same as one taxes a motor car for a particular period on 1st January or on different dates per quarter?

Is there any advantage in that?

This was raised on the Road Traffic Bill. That is the reason I wonder whether or not the Minister has any function. There seems to be a loss to the local authorities in the period that elapses between the expiration of the licence and its renewal. It may be a matter entirely for the Minister for Local Government.

We are doing this on the instructions of Local Government. I do not know very much about the mechanics of it. I see the Deputy's point, however. A driving licence expires on 16th August and is not renewed until 20th August.

The 20th December in some cases.

On that point, I raised this matter on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government previously and was informed it was a matter more properly to be dealt with by legislation. That refers to the point just raised. There is a very definite loss of revenue on this because nobody ever renews his licence, or practically nobody, on the date of expiry of the previous one.

Very few.

That is better.

On one occasion, I tried to have my licence back-dated because I found it was very much out of date. I went into the Tax Office, produced the old licence and pointed out it was five months out of date. In an outburst of conscience, I asked that the new licence should be dated back.

Was it an outburst of conscience or was it a little buff form given the Deputy by a member of the Garda Síochána ?

That is precisely the offensive remark made to me by the official — that I was trying to get a licence dated back to avoid proceedings. I pointed out to him that such a procedure was impossible because the licence itself is stamped with the date of issue. He accused me of trying to dodge legal proceedings by producing a licence dated back. I pointed out to him I could not defend any proceedings on that basis because it would be perfectly clear on the face of the licence that, although it was dated back, it had been issued five months after the date of commencement.

It would be quite possible to collect very much more revenue if some incentive were given to people to produce their old licence and have the new licence dated to run from the expiration of the original, even if a small cash incentive were given for so doing. Therefore, people coming for a driving licence the first time would pay a few shillings extra. If they could produce their old licence, however, they would get some cash discount, but the licence would be dated back. I am convinced that the number of people frequently driving with outdated driving licences is very considerable and there is a loss of revenue. It is only on a Bill like the Finance Bill that that matter can be dealt with. It is a complicated matter. I am sorry I did not put down some amendment to give the Minister some advance warning, but I think it is something which is worth exploring.

Was any consideration given to the alternative to refunds, that is to say, if a licence were taken out for four years, that it could be taken out at the price for three years with no refund? That would mean, I think, more or less no change from the point of view of revenue, but certainly would cut out the administrative costs in respect of refunds. Unless you give an inducement for the longer period or unless you have refunds, clearly you will not get people to take a licence out for a longer period.

I should have thought a cash inducement, by paying a slightly lesser fee for a period of years and that once it was taken out for that period, it was gone, would have been an even better inducement and would have cut down administrative costs by having the licence taken out in one year for a period of three or four years. Perhaps the Minister would look into that also?

It is a matter for the Minister for Local Government.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 12, before section 17, to insert the following section:—

(1) The Government may, as respects all goods which are shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to be of a kind to which the rates of duties of customs referred to in section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, applied at any time and to which those rates have ceased, whether before or after the passing of this Act, to apply, authorise the Revenue Commissioners to allow the importation thereof upon payment of the duties of customs chargeable thereon at the rates which would be applicable if the rates referred to in the said section 8 applied to goods of that kind.

(2) An authorisation under this section may be revoked or amended by the Government and may relate to all goods of the kind referred to in subsection (1) of this section or to any class or classes thereof defined in such manner and by reference to such matters as the Government think fit."

Under the Act passed in 1919, where preferences known as Imperial preferences were given, it was laid down that where a country left the Commonwealth, or what it was called at that time, the preferences ceased. That law still stands as far as we are concerned. Where we have preferences with a member of the Commonwealth and that member leaves the Commonwealth, the duties ordinarily go up. I think it is wrong that we should have that system here; in other words, that we should penalise a member for leaving the Commonwealth. Therefore, this amendment is brought in so that the Government can authorise the Revenue Commissioners to continue the preferences as they were, but the Government can change them at any time, if they so see fit.

This is for South Africa?

It applies to South Africa, yes.

Has the Minister got comparative figures for our trade with South Africa? How much do they buy from us and how much do we buy from them?

I am going only on the question of principle—that we should not penalise a member for leaving the Commonwealth.

Are our goods accorded similar treatment by Commonwealth countries?

As the Deputy knows, when we left the Commonwealth, we were not penalised.

I know we were not penalised as far as Britain was concerned, but have other Commonwealth countries extended the same treatment to us?

I could not say that.

This will be implemented only reciprocally with other countries?

If South Africa were not prepared to give us the same treatment, we would not do it for them?

Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 17.
Question proposed: "That Section 17 stand part of the Bill."

As I said on the last occasion, this is the final chapter in the dishonest propaganda of Fianna Fáil in 1957 in relation to the Special Import Levies. Anybody who had anything to do with shopkeepers in the city of Dublin knows very well that every shopkeeper was canvassed by Fianna Fáil, on the basis that, if they got in, they were going to repeal the levies. Some of them have been honest enough to come to me and tell me they were told to go out and canvass with those instructions. Deputy Booth suggested on Second Reading that I never said this before. I am sorry for the offensive insult he has given me of never having read any of my speeches in the past four years. I have said it every year on every Budget debate over the past four years.

The Minister in his reply made his case that the Special Import Levies amounted to £4,000,000 and that he had repealed the vast majority of them. What are the facts? They are that they ceased to call them Special Import Levies and proceeded to call them permanent duties. For the year ending 31st March last, the Minister collected by the duties he had put on— to call a rose by another name— £1,916,000 and in addition to that, collected just over £1,000,000 in Special Import Levies. That means, in effect, that out of £4,000,000 in Special Import Levies to meet a temporary situation, £3,000,000 are still being collected by him, notwithstanding his promises on that occasion. It was made clear, beyond question, that the Special Import Levies were imposed for the temporary purpose of righting the balance of payments. They should have been relaxed and relieved as the balance of payments position improved. Instead of that, this Government have carried them into permanent taxation in such a way that it is doubtful if anybody will ever in the future be able to unscramble the egg.

This section confirms two Orders made—one the Imposition of Duties (No. 104) (Miscellaneous Customs) Order and the other the Imposition of Duties (No. 105) (Motor Vehicles) Order. Under the procedure for dealing with orders of this kind it is not possible to amend and the only course open is to put down a note to oppose the section.

These two Orders confirm the levies as permanent duties. In addition, they increase the levy from 15 per cent. to 37½ per cent. in respect of a variety of motor vehicle and motor cycle parts. It does not matter from the point of view of the purchaser of these particular parts whether it is described as a levy or a duty. What matters is the amount that has to be paid. The Minister in the course of his Budget statement said that this change was designed to simplify the existing rate of levy by consolidating it in the one Order. In so far as it goes, that might be reasonable enough but the position which will inevitably arise is that, instead of these parts being liable to a levy or duty of 15 per cent., a great variety of them will be liable to a duty of 37½ per cent., a rise of 22½ per cent. These parts are used in the repair of motor cars, motor cycles, scooters and mopeds.

An important element in all this is the fact that, if these parts are brought in unassembled, they are imported at a lower rate of duty. One of the advantages of that is that employment is provided in the assembling of these parts, in the first instance, and in repair work subsequently. It is unnecessary at this stage of development in motor vehicles to stress the large numbers employed in that industry and the indirect employment given in garages, workshops, and so on, in repair work. I have here a list of 25 items. To give an example of the comprehensive nature of the articles included in these Orders, they range from brake linings for motor cars and commercial vehicles to engine valves, silencer boxes, clutch linings, valve springs, and a whole lot of small items like trafficator arms, kingpins, bushes and different articles used in the assembly and repair of motor vehicles. These Orders will undoubtedly increase the cost of motor vehicle repairs.

In recent years motor users have had to bear a great number of additional burdens. They have been obliged to meet higher costs for petrol, higher costs for oil and, this year, a substantial increase in insurance. Now, on top of that, the changes made in these two Orders will involve not merely the simplification which was mentioned, and the continuation of certain duties at the existing rate, but also an increase in respect of a variety of parts amounting to 22½ per cent. That will, in turn, involve a very substantial increase in the cost of repairs and is bound to put an added burden on motor users. It will probably ultimately have an effect on the cost of commodities because commercial vehicles used in the distribution of goods will fall for repair and therefore for liability for these increased costs.

I endeavoured to draft an amendment to the Orders concerned but, in view of the procedure laid down, it is not possible to amend specified parts of an Order. The only method open was to oppose the section. If it were possible to amend an Order by deleting the items concerned, I would have framed an amendment to cover only those items affected by this change. On Report, I believe the Minister should consider introducing an amended series of Orders to allow these parts, particularly unassembled parts, because that touches the vital question of employment in the repair industry as well as in the assembling of them originally, to remain at the existing level of 15 per cent. instead of increasing that level by 22½ per cent. to 37½ per cent.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to an aspect of this matter to which I have endeavoured to draw attention on two occasions by means of Parliamentary Question. When anybody wants a spare part he wants that part cleared in the Customs as quickly as possible. I have twice asked the Minister to look into the expensive and prolonged delays which occur in clearing goods through the Customs. I have had innumerable complaints from business people, manufacturers of machinery, those concerned in the sale and repair of motor cars and farm machinery, of repeated frustrating delays. The Minister has replied on both occasions that he does not believe there are any delays in the Customs and asked me to give him specific instances. That is a naïve sort of reply. Invariably, if one offers to make representations, one is asked not to use the person's name. Those who import want to get their stuff cleared and people fear that, if names are given, there will be subsequent repercussions.

Only the other day I was approached because of an extensive delay in regard to vital machinery required for agricultural purposes. Matters do not wait in agriculture. One is always anxiously scanning the sky overhead in the hay-making season and harvest time. I suggested that, in making representations, I should name the firm concerned. The reply I got was a request to get the machinery freed but not to disclose the identity of the complainant because, if I did so, he would get the machinery this time but he would wait longer the next time. I put it to the Minister that there are continuous, prolonged, frustrating delays in the clearance of machinery through our Customs. That is not confined to the port of Dublin; it is universal. My view, which I think is a reasonable view, is that the customs officials are the servants of the public and ought to endeavour to clear these goods as quickly as possible and give the necessary service to the public.

The Minister for Finance is scooping quite a healthy revenue on this. He is getting a revenue which, as Deputy Sweetman said, many people did not expect he would get or that they would have to pay. If the Government impose duties on the people they ought to see that the people have not to face these hardships and troubles.

I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he should place observers on the ports, not only in Dublin but on all ports, without anybody being aware of the fact, to take due notice of the stuff that comes in and as to whether there are delays or not. The Minister will find that what I say is perfectly correct. The people who have made representations to me are not of any particular political affiliation. The Minister will find that there are delays. Whether they are due to inefficiency or whether it is intentional on the part of the people concerned, I do not know but I would ask the Minister to give the matter his attention.

In the consolidation of these duties on motor cars, we approached the matter with three main objects in mind. One was to consolidate the duty on the body and chassis coming in because I am told that, in modern cars, it is very difficult to segregate what belongs to the body and what belongs to the chassis in certain cases. The rate was 20 per cent. on the body and 25 per cent. on the chassis, or the other way round. Anyway, it is 20 per cent. all round now. The second aim was to eliminate, as far as protective policy would allow, the range of duties applicable to spare parts and to try to get a flat rate there again.

There are many instances, I agree with Deputy Cosgrave, where the duty on parts has gone up. There are instances also where it has gone down. I cannot say definitely that the number and the value of the parts the duty on which is going down would equal the number and value of the parts the duty on which is going up. Probably, taking the whole range of parts, the duties are a bit higher because the duties on the body and chassis have gone down. The third aim was to maintain the same revenue from the whole range of motor cars and motor parts as there was before.

With regard to delays in customs clearance referred to by Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde, it is very difficult to answer that charge unless you get a specific instance or instances. I quite see the Deputy's point that a complainant sometimes does not like to give the name, although I must say I get many complaints where the complainant sends his full name and address and the matter is investigated. I have not had any complaint from the person that he was victimised afterwards as a result of that. I do not think that would happen. Not only have I got these complaints direct, but many Deputies send me letters giving the name and address of a person who has had difficulties in the customs in getting his goods released and, again, I have had no complaints afterwards that they were victimised for complaining in that way.

The first aim was simplification and the second aim was to maintain the revenue in or about what it was. We have only had six or eight weeks' trial of this new range of duties but we have not had any complaints. I admit I have had complaints, the same as Deputy Cosgrave, that the duties on parts had gone up and that that was a serious matter which in all probability would mean that the cost of repairs would have to go up also. Apart from that, I think the scheme is working smoothly and should have the desired result of making it easier for customs officials to deal with them and, therefore, to have a more expeditious release of parts coming through. It will be much easier for any customs official now to assess the duty because he will not have the trouble of finding out whether the part belongs to the radiator or some other part of the car. He will be able to assess the duty straight off. That should make for expedition in release through the customs. I think we should give the new system a little more trial before we condemn it outright.

The Minister for Finance is a past master at the bland reply. The real truth is that these and other duties of a similar character, primarily designed to raise revenue, are part of a general policy of passing taxation off the income tax-payer on to the non-income taxpayer. It is quite true that most people who buy motor cars pay income tax but it is not at all true that most people who buy goods that are carried by motor vehicles pay income tax.

This is a very gradual and subtle process but the fact is that, since this process was inaugurated in 1957, the cost of living has gone up 15 per cent. That means that out of every £ a man earns the Government are collecting 2/6d. in taxation. It means that, as a result of the accumulation of these duties which the Government impose of one kind and another, the old age pensioner who is now receiving 30/- in cash is in fact receiving the equivalent of 26/9d. in 1957. That is bad enough and it is cruelly manifest that it is unjust taxation of the poor for the benefit of the relatively well-to-do, but it is also true that everyone who is paid for a barrel of barley or wheat, for a pig, a bullock or a calf, out of every £ he receives today, the Government are deducting 2/6d. through the medium of the increase in the cost of living which is being carefully constructed by a series of impositions of this kind, all designed to expand indirect taxation for the benefit of the Exchequer.

I think that is a bad system. It is having thoroughly bad repercussions in our society. One of its great evils is that it is extremely difficult to associate its results with its causes. We see the results throughout the country and are only too conscious of whence they flow but it is not so easy to persuade Deputies of this House of the appropriate remedy, that that rise in the cost of living, which is due in part to impositions of this kind, is driving the small farmer off the land, is making the pensioner and the other beneficiaries under the social services bear a tax burden they should not be asked to bear.

Last, but not least, I object to the provisions of this particular Order because I can remember very well that when the motor vehicle duties were first put on, they were designed as a method of restricting excessive imports of motor vehicles during a period when we wanted to mobilise our resources to house the poor, to build hospitals, to carry out other kinds of social capital investment. So anxious were we to underline and emphasise that spirit the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, announced that all revenues derived from these customs duties, or levies as they were called, would be appropriated to capital and not brought into current revenue at all. We were told these were iniquitious impositions which the Fianna Fáil Government, if they got into office, would wipe out the following morning. They did get into office and they took the levy off oranges, the net result of which was that oranges went up in price and the consumers derived no benefit at all.

A great many of the more substantial levies were incorporated into permanent taxation. A few were abolished and this section, I gather, repeats the process of consolidating and making permanent as revenue tariff what were denounced as unjustifiable levies a short four years ago. I am primarily concerned to regard them as what they truly are, the coping stone of a taxation structure which has operated to tax every wage earner, old age pensioner, widow, orphan and unemployed man to the tune of 2/6d. in the £, so that from that revenue other tax reliefs could be provided for sections of the community which I do not think stand as gravely in need of solicitous care as do the categories to whom I referred.

Deputy Dillon has oversimplified the position and has based his simplification on a very unfortunate example from his point of view, because, in 1957, one of the things we did in the Budget was to reduce motor taxation.

But in the same year you put £9,000,000 on food.

So his argument does not stand. As for the intention of putting these levies to the service of capital, that would have been all right, if you balanced the Budget. You did not balance the Budget so that did not hold.

Has the cost of living not gone up by 15 points?

I should have to check that. It went up 15 points under you, too.

When the Minister mentioned the position regarding customs delay, he said he had received quite a number of representations himself. Does he not think that there is a case for an observer to look into the matter to see if goods are coming in freely?

I can assure the Deputy that that is under constant examination.

Question put.
The Committee divided : Tá, 58; Níl, 34.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine B.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Teehan, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.

Níl.

  • Belton, Jack.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Wycherley, Florence.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman: Níl, Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 27th June, 1961.
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