I move:
That a sum not exceeding £5,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1962, for Secret Service.
Committee on Finance - Vote 15—Secret Service.
Did the Minister say £5,000?
Yes.
Can the Minister tell us if the amount voted last year was actually paid out? Can the Minister assure us that this money is properly accounted for? Who audits this account? Is the Minister satisfied that the money is being properly paid out, that people are earning it and that there is no "one for you and one for me" business?
It is a State secret.
There seems to be a certain amount of trust.
I should say that the amount is never spent in full. The practice is that before the Estimate is prepared, the Minister for Finance asks the Departments who need this money how much they want for the coming year. We have for the past few years voted £6,000, £6,000 and £7,500, but expenditure never reached £5,000 in any year. Expenditure has been in or about the same and in fact it was down a little for the past few years.
The Minister of the Department requiring this money asks the Minister for Finance for it, and if the Minister for Finance countersigns it, the money is then paid over to the Department, so the person who is asking for the money in the Department, whether he is head of the Garda Síochána or head of the Army, at least has to satisfy two Ministers that he needs it.
Are there in fact Civil Servant secret service agents as such?
I could not say really. The other Ministers must satisfy themselves on that.
There is no rank in the civil service that would be, say——
M.I.5.
— secret service agents——
No.
—and used exclusively as such?
No.
Could the Minister indicate the Departments which spent money last year and will spend it this year?
No, I am afraid that would not be right. There are two main Departments which spend this money, the Department of Defence and the Department of Justice.
It mostly goes to informers.
Vote put and agreed to.