Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Jul 1961

Vol. 191 No. 9

Committee on Finance - Vote 13—An Chomhairle Ealaíon.

The Taoiseach

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £20,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1962, for a Grant (Grant-in-Aid) to An Chomhairle Ealaíon (No. 9 of 1951).

Deputies will have noted that the provision for An Chomhairle Ealaíon this year has been increased from £20,000 to £30,000. I have no doubt that the Comhairle would have preferred a still greater increase and they may, if they keep on pressing, secure it at some stage but the 50 per cent. increase in their provision this year permits of some extension in the scope of their activities. The House is, of course, aware that the Comhairle acts as an independent body not subject to Government control regarding its promotional activities. The work which was done in the previous financial year is set out in the annual report of the Comhairle which was published to the Dáil early in May last.

Mr. Corish

Was that report presented for the year ending 31st March, 1961?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. Ryan

One hesitates to criticise the very laudable activities of An Chomhairle Ealaíon but there has been not a little comment in the city and the country for some years past that such a large proportion of the money is allocated to subsidise foreign opera in this city. There was a time when we had our own people who were capable of producing here most excellent grand opera. I believe that one of the direct and natural results of contributing such a large amount of money to subsidise the bringing over of Italian and other foreigners to perform on our stages is that we are discouraging our own people from developing their singing talents. If the Comhairle has any purpose to cultivate in our own people these gifts I do not think one cultivates them by subsidising to a large extent foreigners coming over here. Personally, I want to enjoy grand opera in this city which has such a great tradition in grand opera, but I should much prefer, even though the artistes might not be as excellent or as perfect as some of the Italians who come here, to see our own people performing on the boards. I am not, for one moment, saying that I think the Italians are better than our own people. In some cases I cannot see why these foreigners were ever brought here unless it be because their names ended in "i" instead of beginning with "O". I believe that is a kind of snobbery which should not be encouraged. While saying that I wish to make it quite clear to anybody who wishes to misinterpret——

Mr. Corish

The Deputy is wide open to misinterpretation.

Mr. Ryan

If anybody misinterprets me they are doing so maliciously and not with the object that I have in view of encouraging cultural talents in our own people. What we are doing I think is encouraging a certain amount of snobbery, encouraging queues to form because we have Italians or others on our stages. I want to see our own people encouraged and that can best be done by subsidising Irish people.

I hope the tendency to encourage foreigners coming here will not continue in the future but that encouragement will be given to our own artistes.

Mr. Healy

If I may intervene, I should say that Deputy Ryan is very far from the facts in the statement he has made, no matter how unprejudiced he is. It is within the knowledge of anybody who knows anything about music, choral singing or opera that you cannot get artistes from a better school than the Italian school. As one with some experience, I would say that we have not the amount of talent available that is available in Italy but I would go along with Deputy Ryan in saying that we should do more by providing more money for scholarships to send our own singers to places like Italy so that we may do what the Italians are able to do for their young singers and musicians.

It would be very wrong if it went forth from any side of this House that anybody depreciates, underestimates or undervalues what is being done. As one coming from the provinces I think that one of the finest cultural efforts coming from the Dublin Grand Opera Society in my time was the presentation of Italian Grand Opera. I think they have maintained a very high standard and they have not been above giving a chance to any native singer who has reached the required standard. As I say, I only wish money could be provided to ensure that scholarships would be given to those who have talent enough to justify educating them to reach that standard.

Mr. Corish

The Taoiseach has said that this is an autonomous body, but I think all of us would encourage the idea of scholarships being provided to train Irish singers. Perhaps Deputy Ryan has left the House under the impression that the only music festivals and operas that are produced here with the aid of the Arts Council are Italian or foreign in their constitution. Many Irish people participate not only in the chorus but as principals. I do not think the idea should go abroad that the Dublin and Wexford festivals are comprised of Italians. That is untrue.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose on the recondite question of art we cannot expect the House to be confined strictly within limits. I find myself in disagreement with my colleague, Deputy Ryan. I think the work of the Dublin Grand Opera Society is deserving of the highest praise. I think the Arts Council in supporting that society correctly interpret the wishes and desires of this House. As Deputy Corish pointed out, a large proportion of the cast and of the orchestra brought on to the Dublin stage is constituted of Irish musicians and singers. It would be quite illusory to imagine that there is any country in the world to which foreign artistes are not invited from time to time to participate in grand opera. I have never yet heard it suggested in New York that no one should sing but a Yankee. I have never heard it suggested in London that no one should sing but a Cockney. In all the great cities of the world one hears nationals of that country sing; one also hears nationals of every other country —Greeks, Italians, Germans——

Mr. Corish

Irish.

Mr. Dillon

——French, and let us not forget the late Count John McCormack who figured as the principal in operas in every city in the United States, in London, and in many Italian cities.

Mr. Corish

In operas that were probably subsidised by the Italian Government.

Mr. Dillon

In any case, it must be clear to us all on reflection that art belongs to no nation. It belongs to the world. Irishmen would be very shortsighted indeed if they wished to cut themselves off from any section of the arts on strictly nationalistic grounds. That is all the more obvious to me in the light of the recollection I have of our own participation in international art. I think—this is not a day of miracles—that Deputy Healy's observations are very relevant.

Mr. Sweetman

Is it a miracle for him to be relevant?

Mr. Dillon

No. The miracle is that I find myself in substantial agreement with him. I think it would be a very excellent thing if An Chomhairle Ealaíon could see its way to provide more in the way of scholarships for young artistes in the sphere of art so that they might have access to the great schools of the world from which they would otherwise be excluded for want of means. I suppose it is true to say that many of the greatest artistes in the world found their destiny as the result of the help they got to enable them to achieve the education necessary in order that they might fully manifest the gifts God gave them. If there had not been charitable patrons to help them on their way they would never have reached the greatness that was ultimately theirs. Unfortunately in the world in which we live the old system of patronage whereunder wealthy people helped is changing and it is into the gap that is left that I think An Chomhairle Ealaíon could step with advantage.

I mentioned Count John McCormack as one international figure in the sphere of art. I think of the late Madame Burke Sheridan who was once described by Puccini as the greatest "Butterfly" that ever sang. I doubt if she could ever have realised the full potential of her glorious gift if she had not had friends who had confidence in her and who helped her to attend singing schools in Rome and Milan where the greatness of her gifts was realised and developed. I think Deputy Healy is right in feeling that it may well be that unrevealed talent exists here today and would remain forever hidden for the want of the opportunity of having that talent trained. It is not an easy thing to do providently and prudently, but the fact that it is not easy to do providently should not deter the Arts Council.

They have been given their autonomy. We have entrusted public money to them on the assumption that they will use it to the best advantage. They are not subject to the same strict accounting that a Department of State must maintain. It would be inevitable that in a system of scholarships such as we are now considering there would be from time to time individuals sent forward who may not have the promise that was hoped for; but that should not deter us from making the effort in the knowledge that, if we salvage one great gift out of every ten, we will have spent our money well. I think we could say that even if the other nine did not realise the full measure of our hopes, if we had done them no good we would certainly have done them no harm. I commend the suggestion to An Chomhairle Ealaíon and I should like to join with others in paying my tribute to the Dublin Grand Opera Society for the work they have been doing, work which I hope they will continue with an ever-growing measure of success.

The Taoiseach

I should not like it to be thought that the whole of the financial provision by the Comhairle to the development of music is limited to the Dublin Grand Opera Society. As set out in their report last year, they give grants to numerous feiseanna, musical societies, bands, and other organisations around the country. With regard to the Dublin Grand Opera Society, as was said here, there is no grand opera performed anywhere in the world without a subvention from public funds. I am aware that the Dublin Grand Opera Society, notwithstanding the help they get from An Chomhairle Ealaíon, have difficulty in paying the costs of the seasons they run here. I have personal knowledge of that, as I am sure other Deputies have. It could not be carried on if there were not, in addition to these subventions and the receipts they receive, quite a number of people willing to contribute to the cost.

I shall certainly bring to the attention of the Comhairle the suggestion regarding scholarships in this field. I should point out, however, that the amount of money which could be spent—and I mean spent usefully— on the development of the Arts is almost without limit. We have to give a limited appropriation to the Comhairle and ask them to make the best use they can of it. As they pointed out in their report, they have numerous requests for support, from various organisations for different purposes, which they would have liked to meet but could not within the limit of what is provided. All I can say is that this year, at least, they have £10,000 more to spend on these purposes than they had last year.

Mr. Corish

Could the Taoiseach say if the £10,000 is for any specific purpose?

The Taoiseach

No. It is just an increase in their allocation.

Vote put and agreed to.