asked the Taoiseach if he proposes to publish a further White Paper expanding, correcting (where necessary) and bringing up to date the material in the White Paper already published in connection with the Common Market.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - European Common Market.
4.
In the White Paper on the European Economic Community presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas on 30th June last, it was indicated that, if significant amendments to the information contained therein proved to be necessary, they would be brought to notice in later Government statements. I do not consider that the extent of the revision required would warrant the preparation of a further White Paper at this juncture.
As soon as negotiations arising out of our application for membership of the Community have been brought to a stage at which draft terms of accession can be outlined, arrangements will be made to make available to Deputies all necessary information as a basis for discussion by the Dáil of the decision proposed by the Government.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that the appendices to the White Paper contain some information that is clearly inaccurate now? In regard to the comparison of prices here and prices in the various countries of the Six, certain things have not been compared like with like. In relation to sugar, for example, there has not been the same comparison as regards the terms of obtaining pulp, wet or dry, and as regards the terms of transport. Would it not be desirable now that, instead of the hurried product which was then made, there would be a more mature and considered White Paper circulated so that the House and the country would be in a position, after January, to have informed information ready for that discussion?
The Deputy will appreciate that prices fluctuate from time to time. If any Deputy wishes to get the available information regarding the price of any commodity he will certainly be facilitated by means of Parliamentary Questions. With regard to the development of the arrangements of the European Economic Community, there has been no change of substance since the White Paper was published which would justify the preparation of another White Paper now. By and large, the information in the White Paper is still accurate.
While not accepting the Taoiseach's suggestion, might I suggest that he should provide for the benefit of the House and country another up-to-date appendix of prices compared on the same basis?
The Deputy will appreciate that that itself would be out-of-date in a month or so.
Mistakes were made due to the fact that the people were given no time to prepare it.
I do not think that there were any mistakes made.
The Taoiseach would be wise to consult his own files on the matter.
5.
asked the Taoiseach whether he will now agree that the aims of the European Economic Community necessarily involve a surrender of some political as well as economic autonomy.
6.
asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the political implications for this country of its adherence to the Rome Treaty.
7.
andMr. McQuillan asked the Taoiseach what he now recognises as the political and military implications of Ireland's decision to join the Common Market as a full member.
With your permission, Sir, I propose to take Questions Nos. 5, 6 and 7 together.
The suggestion implicit in Deputy Sweetman's question that there has hitherto been some failure to recognise that the European Economic Community has political as well as economic aims is not correct. I have directed the attention of Deputies to these political aspects on a number of occasions both in this House and elsewhere and would refer the Deputy particularly to what I said here on the 5th July and the 2nd August last.
In these and other statements I have tried to make it clear that the founders of the European Economic Community have set themselves the wider aim of fostering European unity and that they regarded the Rome Treaty as a step towards this end. This aim is defined only in vague terms in the Preamble to the Treaty of Rome, in which the signatories declare their resolve to establish the foundations of an ever-closer union among the European peoples and, by combining their resources, to strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty, and in which they call upon other European peoples who share their ideal to join their efforts. There is no doubt, however, that the member countries of the Community regard it as essential that all applicants for membership should be willing to co-operate with them without qualification for the attainment of these wider objectives. In our application for membership, we stated our acceptance of the ideals which inspired the Rome Treaty and of its aims.
As to the precise political implications of membership of the Community, it is not possible to be definitive at the present moment. Deputies will, however, be aware from the declaration issued after the Bonn meeting of the Heads of State or Government of the Six on the 18th July last that they then decided to give statutory form to their co-operation in political and other fields. That instrument is at present being negotiated, and it is not yet possible to say what exactly it may contain. It is already clear, however, that it will provide for close consultation and co-operation between its signatories over a wide field, including foreign policy.
The question has frequently been raised in the House as to whether membership of NATO is a condition of membership of the European Economic Community. We have no reason whatever to think that this is so.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that his undertaking that we would co-operate without qualification for the achievement of certain political objectives concerned with foreign policy, could imply our cession of bases here for NATO, if that is asked from us by the NATO powers?
I do not agree.
Could the Taoiseach give me an undertaking that if, at any time during the negotiations in regard to the Common Market, it is made clear to him that association with or membership of the Common Market would mean that we must accept any undertaking in regard to NATO alliance, he would first tell the Dáil that that clear implication was there and that he will allow the country to decide for itself whether it wanted to accept any such implications, before the Government take a final decision in the matter?
In the very unlikely event of that arising, it would certainly alter the position.
Would the Taoiseach come to the Dáil and tell us that was the position?
The Dáil will be kept fully informed of all developments.
The Taoiseach has not answered my question.
8.
asked the Taoiseach whether in view of public anxiety as to the effect full membership of the European Economic Community could have on present foreign policy, he will state how far that policy could be affected by the political implications of joining the Community.
9.
asked the Taoiseach whether in view of the widespread belief that certain European countries were hostile to the application of this country to join the European Economic Community on account of its policy of neutrality, he considers that pressure will be put on Ireland to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as a condition of full membership of the Community.
10.
andMr. McQuillan asked the Taoiseach whether the Government will be committed to join NATO should Ireland be accepted as a full member of the Common Market.
With your permission, Sir, I propose to take Questions numbers 8, 9 and 10 together.
I have seen no indication of any public anxiety about the possible effect of full membership of the European Economic Community on our present foreign policy. As to the extent to which that policy might be affected by the political implications of joining the Community, it would not be possible to say anything definite until we know more precisely what these implications are. On this point and on the question of joining NATO, I would refer the Deputies to my reply today to Questions numbers 5, 6 and 7.
I am aware that some press reports have suggested that certain member countries of the Community were hostile to our application for membership. According to the information available to me, however, these reports were not correct.
I take it, from what the Taoiseach said in reply to the previous questions, that the political objectives or aims of the Common Market countries are pretty general and, one might say, vague. I think it would be right to assume that if this country becomes a member of what has been termed the Common Market group we will also have a say in the framing of policy in respect of what we describe as the political objectives or aims of the Common Market countries?
That raises a very wide question. The position, as I understand it, is that the meeting of the Six in Bonn, to which I have referred and which took place in July last, discussed the preparation of a statement which would express these objectives. A committee, which was set up for that purpose, is still functioning. According to press reports it has not made very great progress as yet.
We are not yet quite clear as to whether our association with or membership of the Common Market would mean membership of NATO.
I have made it as clear as it is possible to make it. There is no foundation for the suggestion that I am aware of.
May I take it that there is no question that we must be a party to any agreement entered into by the NATO Powers as a result of our association with or membership of the Common Market?
Any agreement? That seems to be a very different question altogether.
It is not a different question altogether.
I think it is.
Why does the Taoiseach not tell the country what the implications are? This is a most serious thing for the country. Are we going to have bases, polaris and others, on the Liffey?
If we are accepted as members of the Common Market for economic purposes, does the Taoiseach now say that our acceptance as members on that basis does not commit us to anything specifically political?
On the contrary, I am making it quite clear that membership of the European Economic Community implies acceptance of certain political objectives. These political objectives have not yet been precisely defined and nobody is in a position to state authoritatively what they are. I think it is extremely likely that they will be defined in a more precise form before we have to take a final decision on membership of EEC.
Could I get from the Taoiseach an undertaking that the Government have considered the possibility of our being asked to become members of NATO as part of an agreement on entering the Common Market and that they have either (a) refused to consider that proposition or (b) have accepted that proposition?
The next question relates to that matter.
11.
asked the Taoiseach if in considering the application from Ireland to join the European Economic Community any official suggestion has been made to the effect that applicants for membership should also be members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
The answer is in the negative.
12.
asked the Taoiseach what steps have been taken by the Government to inform industrialists, agricultural organisations, trade unions and other interested parties of the possible consequences of the admission of Ireland to the European Economic Community; and if a regular arrangement has been reached for consultation and discussion between those interested and the appropriate Government Departments.
13.
asked the Taoiseach what steps are being taken (1) to prepare the economy for this country's entry into the Common Market, and (2) to deal with the problems which may arise as a result of its adherence to the Common Market.
With your permission, Sir, I propose to take Questions numbers 12 and 13 together.
The White Paper published at the end of June last gave the public an outline of the provisions of the Treaty of Rome and of the proposals for a common agricultural policy.
In accordance with the arrangements which I announced in the Dáil on the 5th July last, the Committee on Industrial Organisation, on which are represented the Department of Finance, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Federation of Irish Industries, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers, is carrying out a comprehensive survey of the industrial sector directed towards an examination of the difficulties that may be created for industry as a result of our entry into the Common Market and the formulation of positive measures of adjustment and adaptation. A similar survey is being arranged for those industries which are directly based on agriculture and which would have to operate in conditions somewhat different from those prevailing in the industrial sector.
Other aspects of the Common Market, including the proposals for a common agricultural policy, are the subject of continuous study by the Departments concerned in the light of the progress being made towards the implementation of the Treaty of Rome.
The Department of Industry and Commerce has frequent meetings with individual firms, with groups of firms and with industrial organisations to discuss the general and particular implications of membership of the European Economic Community.
The Department of Agriculture has had discussions with representatives of agricultural organisations on the subject of the EEC Commission's proposals for a common agricultural policy, and arrangements are being made, in co-operation with those organisations and with the processing and marketing interests concerned, for detailed studies on a product-by-product basis of the implications of that policy.
In addition, the revision of the Programme for Economic Expansion which has been put in hands will take account of the new environment in which the economy will have to operate in the event of our becoming a member of the Community.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's reply, does it not strike him as somewhat incongruous, with all these alleged consultations proceeding, that one body which does not seem to have the benefit of any such consultations or sources of information is Oireachtas Éireann which, in the last analysis, must take the final decision? Does the Taoiseach realise that, while the process of Parliamentary Question and answer does elicit certain information, the necessity for Deputies generally to be informed of all the implications of a fluid and developing situation is growing daily more urgent if this House and the Seanad are to give an intelligent consideration to any proposals that the Government may ultimately formulate in regard to Ireland's application for membership of the European Economic Community?
I am not sure what the Deputy has in mind. In so far as his question relates to the investigations and inquiries which are going on about the measures that might be needed to adapt the national economy to the new situation, it is not possible yet to give the Oireachtas any information because these inquiries are in progress. It is certainly intended that the outcome of these inquiries will be publicised.
What I had in mind was this: in view of the exhaustive nature of the consultations that ought to be taking place, and that may be taking place for all I know, with the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Agriculture and the other appropriate Departments and the various interests concerned, would it not be eminently desirable that there should be some committee representative of the Oireachtas which, from time to time, could inform itself in a more detailed way than is practicable by Parliamentary Question and answer, through having the power to send for administrative heads of Departments or Ministers and discussing specific aspects of the discussions to which the Taoiseach refers? I give a case in point. A committee of this House, if it could get detailed information of the implications for agriculture, could approach the whole question, when the Government wish to have it discussed exhaustively in Dáil Éireann, in a more intelligent way than if they are speculating on what the real prospects are. I would suggest to the Taoiseach that he might consider the possibility or practicability of a joint committee of this House and the Seanad to act as a liaison with the negotiations that are proceeding so that all may be fully informed in preparation for the occasion when a final decision must be taken.
I think the course suggested by the Deputy requires very careful consideration because it has some doubtful implications but, in so far as agriculture is concerned, the Deputy will appreciate that the definition of the Common Agricultural Policy of the Community is by no means complete. Indeed, the Council of the Community is, I think, meeting now to try to resolve certain disagreements which have arisen in that regard, and when it will be possible to give the House a more precise definition of the Community's policy it is impossible to say.
May I ask the Taoiseach if he would indicate what procedure should be adopted by the trade union or by the individual firm which has views in respect of the impact of the Common Market on a particular industry to bring these views to the notice of this Committee on Industrial Organisation?
That has all been arranged. I met the representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and arranged a procedure which will ensure that individual trade unions as well as the Congress can be brought fully into consultation whenever it appears that their interests are involved.
Did the Taoiseach say "is being arranged" or "has been arranged"?
Has been arranged and, indeed, there was a press announcement regarding this arrangement.
If there is a firm which is not in an industrial group what does it do? Can it transmit its views to anybody?
These investigations are proceeding in respect of a number of industries at present but it will be some time before all the industries that require examination will have been covered, but as each industry is made subject to survey and as proposals relating to it are being formulated, the particular trade unions that are concerned with that industry will be given a full opportunity to express their views in regard to them.
Does this not highlight the need for some liaison body between this Oireachtas and the departmental machinery to know what is going on when a leading member of the Labour Party is not fully informed as to the facilities available to trade unions to communicate with the committee to which the Taoiseach has referred?
As I pointed out to Deputy Norton, these arrangements were fully publicised.
The Taoiseach will now realise that as far as myself, deeply concerned for agriculture, and Deputy Norton intimately associated with trade union business, are concerned, a situation can arise that both of us, giving as much attention to the problems as we can, can find ourselves without the information which I think is indispensable to reasonable consideration.
Is it expected that a general conclusion of these arrangements will have taken place before the Taoiseach enters into negotiations in January?
No. As far as industry is concerned, the investigations are likely to take a considerable time, although I gather the first reports may be available in a matter of some weeks. So far as agriculture is concerned, the position is, as I have explained to Deputy Dillon, that there is still a great deal of doubt as to what form the common agricultural policy of the Community may finally take in respect of a number of commodities.
14.
asked the Taoiseach if in the event of Ireland being admitted to the European Economic Community any constitutional changes or amendments will be necessary; and, if so, if he will indicate generally the nature of the proposed changes.
In the reply which I gave to a question addressed to me in this House on the 2nd August last, I indicated that the implications of the Rome Treaty from the point of view of the Constitution were being considered. A full study has been made of the text of the Treaty, but, before a final opinion can be arrived at, it will be necessary to have more information about the way in which certain of its provisions are to be implemented. I am not at present satisfied that the Treaty cannot be operated within the framework of the Constitution as it stands.
During the negotiations which we anticipate will arise out of our application for membership of the European Economic Community, the nature and extent of our obligations under the Rome Treaty will be ascertained, and, if it is found that any of these obligations are in conflict with the Constitution as it stands, consideration must be given to effecting any necessary amendment of the Constitution. It is too early to indicate, even in a general way, the nature of possible amendments.
May we take it if one of the conditions turns out to be association with, or membership of, NATO, or any obligations to NATO as a pre-condition of membership, the Dáil will be told of this fact as soon as the Government become aware of it?
I am well aware that certain left wing papers in Britain are propagating the view that the European Economic Community is merely an economic development of the NATO alliance. I think the people of this country know full well the purpose behind that suggestion.
Will the Taoiseach let us know—yes or no—whether we become members of NATO because we are members of the Common Market? That is a simple question, requiring a simple answer "yes" or "no".
I have already made it quite clear that nobody, no member of the Community and no institution of the Community, has stated in an official way that membership of NATO is involved.
I am accepting that as a reply to an earlier question but what I want to know now is: will the Taoiseach inform the Dáil as soon as he becomes aware that that is such a pre-condition? Is it not a fact that the only use we have as an undeveloped and underdeveloped society after 40 years of mis-government is merely as a base for the NATO alliance? Is that not a fact?
It is an absurdity.
The Taoiseach knows it is a fact——
Order!
If we are going into the Common Market, why evade that simple question?
15.
asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement regarding Ireland's application for admission to the European Common Market with special reference as to when the conditions of admission are likely to be known; whether the information at present available to the Government is such that Ireland may be offered admission as a full member or as an associate member; and, if so, what are the Government's views on such proposals.
We have applied for membership under Article 237 of the Rome Treaty, which states that "any European State may apply to become a member of the Community." In accord with the provisions of the Treaty, the Council of Ministers, on receiving our application, asked the European Commission for its opinion on it. While we have not seen the precise text of their comment, we understand that the Commission, while adverting to the obligations of the Treaty, expressed much the same view in regard to our application as in the case of the applications from Britain and Denmark, which was to the effect that they could not pronounce on the applications on the data available. The Council of Ministers have since proposed a meeting with the Irish Government in January to exchange views on the special problems raised by our application and the consequences to be drawn therefrom and also to discuss certain questions of procedure, this meeting to be followed by negotiations proper.
As the Deputy is aware, the purpose of these negotiations is to determine, in accordance with the second paragraph of Article 237 of the Rome Treaty, the conditions of admission and the adaptations required in the Treaty. I expect that we shall have a better idea of the conditions of admission after the meeting which we are to have in Brussels with representatives of the Six Member Governments in January, but we shall not, of course, know the precise conditions until the negotiations proper, which are to follow that meeting, have been completed. In view of the important position that Britain holds in our external trade, the conditions of membership to be accorded to Britain will be of major concern to us, and, indeed, our terms of accession can hardly be put in final shape—nor would we want them to be—until information is available about Britain's terms, which, it is thought, are not likely to be known until well into 1962. We will, of course, endeavour to ensure that our negotiations will be so arranged that our entrance into the Community can take place simultaneously with Britain.
As regards the concluding parts of the Deputy's question, I would point out that the Treaty provides for membership on the part of European countries or for association between any country and the Community. The Government decided to apply for membership, and we, naturally, hope that we shall secure it.
May I take it that what are described as problems for discussion at the January meeting relate to our ability to accept the onerous terms of membership and just nothing else?
No. I have already expressed the view that the questions were likely to relate to our capacity to accept the obligations of membership without being, as a member, an impediment to the development of the economic aims of the Community. The acceptance of the political aims of the Community will also arise.
Will the Taoiseach say whether there has been any disadvantageous change in the climate, so far as we are concerned from the standpoint of being admitted as a full member instead of an associate member, since our application was made?
I think I can say quite definitely there has been no such change.
16.
andMr. McQuillan asked the Taoiseach whether he accepts the statement at paragraph 194 in the Council of Europe Report prepared by a working party of members of the Secretariat that the abolition of tariff barriers to industrial imports from members of the E.E.C. would seem likely to slow down the rate of industrialisation in the State by causing considerable difficulties for certain existing industries; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
It is certain—and I have so stated on many occasions in public—that the abolition of import tariffs could create difficulties for some existing industries. On the other hand, access on a tariff-free basis to wider markets in Europe can assist the growth and encourage the establishment of other industries. While the difficulties of the transition period will be substantial, it is not accepted that the rate of industrialisation will necessarily be reduced. In the case of those industries for which protection is important, investigations are at present in progress to determine the measures which may be needed to enable them to adapt themselves to the eventual withdrawal of tariffs.
17.
andMr. McQuillan asked the Taoiseach what reservations included in the July application by the Government to the Member Governments of the E.E.C. were excluded from the formal application for membership submitted on 2nd August 1961.
The approach to the Member Governments of the E.E.C. of which I informed the Dáil on 5th July was not in any sense an application for membership of the Community. It was designed primarily to inform the individual Governments concerned that we were considering applying for membership of the Community in the event of Britain deciding to do so, and, at the same time, to draw attention to certain aspects of our economic position, in the hope, as I then said, that it would get us "a clearer view of the realities of the situation and the specific implications for Ireland of membership of the Community".
It was therefore in a quite different category from the formal application for admission to the Community which was addressed to the President of the Council of Ministers on 31st July and of which the text was published on 2nd August.