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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 15 Mar 1962

Vol. 193 No. 11

Foyle Area (Weekly Close Time) Regulations, 1962—Motion to Annul.

I move:—

That the Foyle Area (Weekly Close Time) Regulations, 1962, be and are hereby annulled.

I raise this matter because I feel that the fishermen on the River Foyle and Lough Foyle are being treated harshly. As Deputies know, the story of Foyle fishing goes back a number of years. The fishermen there fought to have the right to fish it. The situation was rather controversial immediately after the Foyle-Bann case was lost in the High Court in Dublin. After 1952, the Foyle Fishery Act was brought into force to control fishing on the River Foyle. At that time, it was felt by all sections of the community that this was completely in the interest of the river and of the fishermen who fish it. However, the position at the moment is that the fishermen are ill at ease. They have come to the conclusion that we are going back to the Foyle and Bann period and that this is tending to be something like a private fishery again.

Without going into details, I believe that the difficulty on the Foyle must be placed fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Commissioners, who, in my opinion and in the opinion of many, have failed to do the job they were appointed to do. This is due to the fact that the Commission do not recognise the advisory council, the body elected by the practical fishermen on the Foyle to speak for them in consultations with the Commission and to bring their practical problems to the notice of the Commission. They have been consistently ignored, so much so that in September, 1960, the advisory body passed a resolution of no confidence in the Commission. That is a known fact, despite the fact that it appeared in a local newspaper on Tuesday that the Commission refused to meet the advisory body without the Press being present.

Incidentally, I should refer to the fact that the Commission now say it was agreed by the advisory body to bring in these penal regulations. With the greatest respect to everyone, that is not a fact, as I am sure Deputy Cunningham will agree. He and I attended a few meetings of the fishermen. It was brought to our notice that only one meeting of the advisory body had been called since the elections last year— and the one meeting called was to entertain them to dinner or high tea! I shall leave it to the House to judge without going into it further.

This reduction of one day in the fishing week is a penal measure for the fishermen who fish the Foyle. The Commission have the solution themselves, if they would only use it. I am speaking the views of the practical fishermen, and I am sure Deputy Cunningham will do so as well. With the greatest respect, the Commissioners are civil servants. If they do not recognise the advisory council and if they completely ignore the fishermen, they are not serving the purpose for which they were appointed.

I feel the Commission are not bringing in these regulations entirely in the interests of the fishermen who make their living on the river. If they were, they would remove the stake net at Rosses Bay, which was described by Deputy Cunningham as a "killer"—a stake net which it would be illegal for anyone but the Commission to use. They have three such stake nets in the River Foyle catchment area. They could also reduce the length of the draught nets they use themselves to the length allowed to fishermen above Derry Bridge.

The big mistake is this. The Commission make regulations and submit them to the Governments, both north and south, and whenever the fishermen make a protest, they kindly agree to meet a deputation. Deputy Cunningham and I are to attend one of these deputations on Tuesday next. But it puzzles me why the Commission should be agreeable to meet a deputation after the thing has become an accomplished fact. It seems to be wasting the time of the fishermen and of the Commission itself. I am thankful to the Government Party for allowing me time to speak on this.

In 1959, the fishing season was reduced by one fortnight, from 15th April to 1st May, and it is now proposed to reduce it by one extra day per week. This is qualified by the Minister to, I think, a period of five years. At the end of five years, there will be no guarantee that conditions and circumstances will have changed; it may be extended to another five years or, perhaps, the fishing week reduced once more, or the season reduced. I submit that the Minister should recommend to the Commissioners — he appointed them — that they should consider the views of the fishermen who make their living by fishing the River Foyle before any new regulations are brought into force.

There is a widely-held opinion that all fishermen are rogues and poachers. That is not so. No one values a licence more than a legal fisherman. Fishermen appreciate that their living comes out of fishing, whether it is fulltime fishing in the Lough or in the upper reaches of the river. They all realise that the regulations made are made in their own interests. Now I have here some rather interesting figures. In the year ending 30th September, 1960, the Commission paid back £6,000; in the vear prior to that, they paid back £8,000 practically. They have £40,903 accumulated surplus; part of this is £27,000 in hard cash and investments, incidentally. The fishermen cannot understand how, if these regulations have to be brought in the interests of the River Foyle, this industry can make money. Would the Minister not agree that in this industrial age, with a Fianna Fáil Cabinet, this money should be spent keeping down poachers and benefiting the river ?

On a point of order, the accounts of the Foyle Fishery Commission are not open to discussion on this. Neither will I be allowed to row over the reasons why these sums have accumulated. This is a motion to annul.

On a point of order, surely if the Deputy objects to the Foyle Fishery Company seeking to reduce the intake of salmon, it is open to the Deputy to point to their resources and to the fact that they can apply a certain restraint to themselves. Surely that is a reasonable argument ?

I submit it is not. There is a specific Order before the House for conservation purposes. We should discuss that Order and not the fishery owners.

The Order has not been made yet. They have submitted an Order.

I think Deputy Harte is entitled to refer to the matters to which he has referred in support of his motion.

One important factor is that the Commission have steadfastly refused to recognise the advisory council. They bring in these penal regulations now. Seven years ago, the advisory council recommended a curtailment of net licences, but that advice was not taken until two years ago, when it became obvious to the Commission they would have to curtail netting. They then reduced the nets to one licence per house. Had they taken the advice seven years earlier, the situation today on the River Foyle would be vastly different.

Even at the risk of being misinterpreted, I think there are too many anglers with a licence for the sole purpose of illegal fishing. I recognise the good angler is a sportsman, but there are too many anglers with licences for poaching. If the days are to be curtailed, then make them Tuesday morning to Saturday morning, or Monday morning to Friday morning, but do not stagget it. If the fishing week has to be reduced for all fishermen, then include the anglers. Fishermen would welcome bailiffs at recognised points so that the fish caught could be checked. That would eliminate a market for illegally caught fish I think a great many of these regulations are brought in under pressure from anglers fishing the Mourne. Unless you are a cousin of a brigadier, or a close friend of Lord Brookeborough or Lord Wakehurst, you will not get any angling on the Mourne. It is a closed shop. The Minister for Transport and Power will bear me out in this but he might prefer me not to go into it.

Does he fish on it ?

He was up one weekend — the week the big one got away.

That does not arise on this motion.

The Government should realise that this is an Irish industry with no chance whatever of failing. If this were a Fianna Fáil industry, controlled by foreigners, we would have money in subsidies literally flowing down the Foyle. The Minister should consider rejecting the claim of the Commission to reduce the fishing week. I suggest the proper step would be to reduce the company's own draught nets to the same length as those of the fishermen who fish the river above Derry Bridge and remove the stake net at Rosses Bay, which is described by Deputy Cunningham as a "killer". I suggest also that a local commissioner be appointed on the Commission and, above all, I appeal to the Minister to instruct the Commission to recognise the advisory council who, like Deputy Cunningham and myself, are spokesmen for the practical fishermen who know the problems of the Foyle and earn their living from the Foyle. Until such time as there is good faith between the fishermen, the Commission and the advisory council, there will always be trouble on the Foyle.

I may have missed a few points but I have tried my best to put the case before the House and I appeal to the Minister to reject the claim of the Foyle Commission.

Is there a seconder ?

I formerly second the motion.

The terms of this motion are "That the Foyle Area (Weekly Closing Time) Regulations, 1962, be, and are hereby annulled." In considering that motion, we should remember that the statutory regulation to which the motion refers is in two parts, one dealing with the net fishermen and the other with the anglers and reducing the angling season in November by a period of three weeks. I certainly do not want the Minister to annul that part of the regulation. I am all in favour of it and I do not support the motion which asks that that part of the regulation which the Minister has signed and which is before us on the Table of the House should be annulled. I shall strongly oppose the revision to a date three weeks later of the date for the closing of the angling season. I think what the Minister has done in that part of the regulation is wise and necessary and that further action along those lines in regard to the angling season in necessary.

Deputy Harte agrees that the angling season should be further curtailed, but in his motion he asks that the whole Order be not introduced, thereby suggesting that the angling season which it is proposed to reduce by three weeks should be left as it is. I do not agree with that.

On a point of order, what I intended to say was that the regulations existing for the river Foyle up to now are quite in order. They do not call for any change.

What some of us intend to say——

That is what he said. The Deputy is wriggling out of going into the division lobby against the motion.

I am reading the motion——

Fire away. We shall talk after you.

Deputy Harte did some wriggling also.

We read the motion and we know what it means.

I think I can read this as it stands and I take it Deputy Dillon has "vetted" this and he agrees with what is written down here.

I agree with it.

I say these regulations, if introduced, inasmuch as they would affect the net fishermen, go too far. I do not agree with the statement of Deputy Harte that the net fishermen have no faith in the Commission. I say they have and that they have agreed with some of the regulations brought in, although all of them were not to the advantage of the net fishermen. They agreed with some and opposed others. I cannot say the net fishermen have no faith in the Commission but they say, and I agree with them, that this step in regard to the netting of the river Foyle is too drastic.

I am glad to note that it is not a hard and fast regulation: it may, and I hope will, be waived during the season. It is stipulated that if there is a sufficient run of fish up the river, the regulation may be waived and that the net fishermen may revert to a five-day week as heretofore. I hope that will happen and that the requirements for that to happen will not be severe, that the number of fish required to have passed up the river will not be so large as to make it almost certain that these regulations will not be waived.

Deputy Harte suggested that it was a waste of time for a deputation of net fishermen to meet the Commission on this matter. I think it is not. This is something which the Commission under the Order may waive. I believe the net fishermen will be able to make a case showing why it should be waived. It is true, and it has happened, that the advisory council met the Commission only once and that no decision of this nature was taken at the meeting. No advice of this kind was given to the Commission. I do not agree with everything the advisory council suggests; I never have. Even if the advisory council had met on a number of occasions, that council is so overloaded with anglers' representatives that these regulations might well have been suggested to the Commission. Other regulations which seemed to penalise net fishermen in previous years were recommended by the advisory council because the council was then overloaded with anglers' representatives.

However, there is that wrong statement in the publication by the advisory council or by the Minister's Department that these regulations were suggested by the advisory council. At least, they were not suggested this year. I am not quite sure when, if ever, that suggestion was made by the council. Certainly, these suggestions were not made by the newly-elected advisory council set up some six months ago.

This is a valuable fishery. I can understand why the Commission want to improve it but I think this method of improving it is not the best one. It is one which penalises the large number —not a very large, but a substantial number—of net fishermen, both drift net and draft net, who earn a livelihood from this river and whose fathers and forefathers earned a livelihood there.

I think that there should be better supervision of the rivers of the Foyle system, a cutting down of the fishing season, absolutely drastic measures against poachers and those fishing by other illegal means. We do know that wholesale poaching is taking place in those rivers and they get away with it because the Commissioners have not enough staff to look after this very important end of their activities.

There is one point with regard to the regulations which staggers the fishing on two different parts of the river. I do not like the idea of all the drift net men being on on a Monday and all the draft net men being off on a Monday, with the exception of the Commissioners own draft net men. If all the draft net men are to be off on a Monday, I think the Commissioners own draft net men should also be taken off.

The Commissioners should take off their stake nets on the narrow Derry stretch of the estuary. A good part of their income is derived from fishing by those stake nets and if anyone is to have a reduction of income, it should not be the net men. In view of the fact that the Commissioners are making such a good income, they could well afford to lose a slice of it.

I am glad the Commissioners have agreed to meet a deputation of the net fishermen. I think this is the first time that a direct meeting with the Commission has taken place, because, prior to this, it was between the advisory council, which includes anglers, and the Commission. I would suggest that the Commissioners could easily relax the regulations in so far as they effect the net fishermen. They should relax them and take more energetic measures against poachers and illegal fishing and also curtail their own catches of fish from the very narrow Derry stretch. I hope the Minister and the Commissioners will take into consideration the points that have been made and that after meeting the representatives of the net fishermen, they will find it unnecessary to introduce these regulations in any of the Foyle fisheries.

They have introduced them and they are now going to operate them. Deputy Cunningham can take steps to see that they do not. He wants to blow hot in Donegal and blow cold here where the Party Whip is hanging over his head. This is a very valuable fishery. I ought to know. I bought it. I persuaded the Irish Government to pay £55,000 for a half share and Stormont paid the other £55,000 for the other half. We bought it for the fishermen in Donegal and it was not bought primarily as a revenue-earning asset for the Government.

It was bought to put an end to a hated injustice, of which the people of Donegal bitterly complained, that the several fishery there was controlled by a London company and that our own people were not allowed to fish on it. When I first entered the Dáil, I represented a Donegal constituency and I promised them that in some way, some day, we would put an end to that. It is a great source of satisfaction to me that we lived to do it and that we made that fishery the property of our own people because we wanted them to have access to it. I think it is very wrong to introduce a series of regulations designed to take back from them that which they had been longing to have down through the generations.

It is a valuable fishery and if you fish a valuable fishery too much, you destroy the fishing altogether. There are more people fishing these fisheries than the fishermen of Donegal, but there is this difference between them, that the individual fishermen both from the east and the west coast of the estuary are all relatively poor men, depending for their livelihood on the licence which they have to fish. The Foyle Commission is a wealthy body because we made a very good bargain with the London body from whom we bought it. We paid £110,000 and the Commissioners have accumulated substantial reserves. A great deal of the credit for the good work done in those negotiations goes to Mr. J. D. Rush, who is no longer in the public service. These negotiations were very difficult and he made a very good bargain for this country.

If the aim is to reduce the take of salmon in order to increase the breeding stock of the river, would you not imagine that before they start to take the bread out of the mouths of the fishermen of Donegal, they would take a chance of lifting the nets of the Commissioners themselves. If it is necessary to let more salmon up the estuary, surely the first people who ought to make the sacrifice are the Commissioners themselves, who have an annual income of about £20,000 a year? How can you cut the man whose total interest is one licence, out of which most of them do not get anything? They are now allowed only one licence per house, whereas in the past a father and son could have two licences or two brothers could have two licences.

How can we go to these men and tell them that we are going to prevent them earning on one day out of the five they enjoy, while the Commissioners continue to fish all the time under the various concessions which they enjoy, some of which are not open to the individual fishermen at all? I think the only people who can put a stake net in this fishery are the Commissioners themselves. I believe that if the nets under the control of the Commission were lifted for one season or half a season it would have far greater effect on the fishermen than cutting off the fishing for one day a week. Surely that ought to be tried before you take one fifth of these men's livelihood away from them ? Surely it is worth trying ?

I am prepared to go farther, if the necessity arises. If the device of suspending fishing by the Commission themselves is not sufficient to restore the stock of the fishery, we can then consider further steps. Surely that ought to be the first step? Until that step is taken, I suggest we should prohibit the making of this Order. That is the effective thing Deputy Cunningham can do if he wants to— but of course he will not. However, wait until we hear him making speeches up in Donegal. The scenes that will transpire in Derry will strike terror into the hearts of all.

Here is the only place he can do anything. Here, he can say effectively to the Commission: "You will not make this Order at least until you have met the fishermen and discussed it with them. You asked us to come to meet you in Derry next week. Wait until we have had a talk with you before you make your Order." Not at all. He will vote for the Order today and then tear passion to tatters in Derry next week. That may fool some very simple people in Donegal but it will not fool the vast majority of the people in Donegal whom I know. They have no appreciation for a man who blows cold in Dublin and hot in Donegal.

Why did the Deputy leave it, then ?

A very good question.

Because I had work to do elsewhere. Do not forget that when I first went to Donegal, I was returned at the top of the poll and never lost my place, so long as I needed to stay there. The people in Donegal will understand. I do not think they have forgotten that I did not forget them and that the day came when I gave them the Foyle fishery, through the inter-Party Government, which this Government now propose to take away from them or at least 20 per cent. of it. That is what they remember.

And you opened the boatyard at Meevagh.

We all know in this House that that 20 per cent. reduction in the fishermen's access to this fishery is far less than the total take of the nets operated by the Commission themselves. I feel perfectly certain that if the Northern Ireland representatives on the Commission were approached by our representative on the Commission, they would be prepared to suspend their fishing rights for a month, two months, or whatever period is reckoned in order to restore the stock of the river. That procedure would be much more effective to restore the stock of the river than the proposal to take the bread out of the mouths of the individual fishermen.

Therefore, both from the point of view of the fishermen and from the point of view of equality and justice, that is the right way to go about it. If it is necessary, the Commission ought to do it. They ought to take up their own nets for a month or whatever period may be necessary. They should not leave their own nets fishing and then say that it is a most admirable thing that the Commission have consented to submit themselves to the same restraint as they prescribe for the fishermen.

There is this little difference between them. Each individual fisherman's income from this fishery can be counted in tens of pounds. The Commission's income can be counted in thousands. There is no use in a man who is enjoying an income of £10,000 a year coming to a man enjoying an income of £100 a year and saying: "I shall give up £2,000 of my income, and live on £8,000 a year, provided you will give up £20 of your own, and live on £80." If a man came to me with that proposition, I should hit him across the face with a wet dishcloth. But that is the proposition being made to them and it is against that proposal that we have moved to cancel this regulation.

Surely Deputy Cunningham, if he is going to Derry next week, will have the courage to vote for its cancellation, at least pending this moving conversation he is to have in Derry? Come now; we look to him to blow as hot in Dáil Éireann as he intends to blow in Derry.

We see the purpose of this motion now.

It is to cancel this regulation. That is its purpose.

I agree with half of it.

It does not matter a fiddle-dee-dee about the three weeks that the fellows are going to fish with rod and line. They will be getting the traileach in their wrists to get as much salmon out of the river in three weeks as one of the stake nets would get in one night. The Deputy knows it well. He is trying to slither out but the people in Donegal are not as innocent as that. At least he should suspend the operation of this Order until the fishermen are met. In my judgment, they should not have this regulation at all, until they have suspended their own fishing for a protracted period to see what effect it will have on the stock or, at the minimum, until they receive the deputation. If they do not do that, I think they affront the fishermen.

It will be interesting to read in the Derry Journal all the things Deputy Cunningham will say in Derry when he goes there. I hope the people of Donegal will compare them strictly— however eloquent he becomes in Derry —with his temporary restraint in Dáil Éireann. I hope they will note his astute and salmon-like manoeuvre by which he hopes to escape from the obligations of defending in Dáil Éireann that for which he is prepared to die in Donegal.

On a point of order, at the expense of appearing to be disloyal to my leader, I should like to say that I recognise that Deputy Cunningham fights for the fishermen in Donegal. I would associate myself with him in the fight for the rights of the fishermen. The Minister might consider relaxing the regulations and saving Deputy Cunningham the embarrassment——

That is not a point of order.

The Donegal people know that, but the leader——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan rose.

The Deputy is aware that the debate must end at 4.50 p.m. ?

In view of the fact that the Minister has a Parliamentary Secretary in charge of Fisheries, is it not remarkable that when we are discussing a very important matter concerning the livelihood of so many fishermen in the Foyle area, the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of Fisheries is not in the House ?

The Deputy is displaying his ignorance of the law because I, and solely I, am responsible for Foyle fisheries under the law as it stands. In connection with this motion of annulment, the effect of the Foyle Area (Weekly Close Time) Regulations, 1962, is to lengthen the weekly closing time in the Foyle area from the normal 48 hours to 72 hours and to stagger the weekly abstinence from netting between the lower and upper parts of the Lough and River Foyle so as to provide optimum opportunities for escapement of spawning fish. Deputies will know that the Foyle Estuary is approximately 30 miles long.

The law prior to the introduction of this Order was that there was a 48-hour closing period from 6 a.m. on Saturday to 6 a.m. on Monday. On the lower reaches of the river, that is, from Derry to the sea, the new period will be from 6 a.m. on Friday to 6 a.m. on Monday, and on the upper stretches of the tidal portion of this fishery the new period will be from 6 a.m. on Saturday until 6 a.m. on Tuesday. The driftmen are mainly concerned with the stretch from Derry to the sea.

On a point of order. Would the Minister indicate where the Commission will be?

That is not a point of order. The Deputy should not interrupt the Minister. He has only ten minutes in which to reply ?

Would the Minister indicate where the Commission will be fishing while men are fishing on the lower stretch from Monday to Friday and on the upper stretch from Tuesday to Saturday ?

The restrictions in this Order affect the Foyle Commission in the same way as they affect all the other people concerned.

On paper.

I was about to explain to the Deputy the reason for the staggering that has been described here. It has been estimated by these experts, who are in a position to judge, that the 48-hour close season or escapement period that was formerly in operation was not in fact effective in as much as fish that came in late on Saturday night and Sunday were subject to netting on the Monday before the escapement period. From the speed of the salmon, their habits in that particular fishery, it was ascertained that although there was on paper a 48-hour close season in each week it was not effective. The reason for this staggering period, for having a different close season starting on Friday in the case of the drift fishermen above Derry city and the change down, is to ensure that there will be an effective 48-hour period for escapement and that the running fish that move in now on Thursday will not, by the whole series of netting operations that go on from the mouth of the Foyle right up to the tidal portion, be subject at all stages to the nets and the net fishermen.

It is not correct to say that the Commission took this action without consulting anybody. There has been, certainly since I became Minister for Lands, a consistent and persistent demand for conservation on the whole Foyle system, the one peculiarity being that everybody wants to prevent the other fellow fishing, even in connection with this Order.

Is that the attitude of the Commission ?

The various sections, the driftmen, the net men and the anglers, as far as I can judge, are all agreed on one thing, that there should be conservancy measures. The vast majority of them expressed fears, and such fears were expressed in the discussion of the recent Bill in the Northern Parliament, that this fishery was in danger because of a lack of effective conservancy measures. It was stated that there should be more escapement. Where the disagreement comes in is as to who, or as to which body would be curtailed in their fishing. I suppose it is only human, but, while every section is agreed as to the necessity for conservancy measures, no section wants the measures to be applied to themelves or to their particular class. Before this Order was made there had been discussions with the advisory council. The advisory council were agreed that conservancy measures should be taken.

On a point of order.

If the Deputy will allow me. I have been very patient with the Deputy, letting him jump up and down like a jack-in-the-box.

Will the Minister give me the date of the advisory council meeting ?

That is not a point of order.

There never was an advisory council meeting. It was a dinner party.

The Deputy has spoken and he should allow the Minister to conclude in the short time at his disposal.

I am asserting there has been an advisory council meeting. I have seen a record of the discussion at it and while there appeared to be general agreement that conservancy measures should be taken—and indeed many of those present welcomed these measures—there were some who were not prepared to accept them in toto. They all appeared to be in agreement that it was essential to have some conservancy measures.

The same story has existed as far as conservancy measures are concerned over a number of years in connection with this fishery. The vital reason for the introduction of these measures, which, as has been pointed out by Deputy Cunningham, apply to rod fishermen and others as well as to the operations of the Foyle Fisheries Commission, was the extraordinarily poor escapement in 1961. The main reproducing stock move upstream in, I think, the first week or fortnight in July. On that movement, outside the ordinary escapement from the nets of the fishermen at other periods, depends the restocking potential of the whole system. This last movement in July, 1961, has been the worst movement and the lowest escapement in the whole history of this system. It has been far and away below any other figure since records have been kept by the Commission. The red counts in 1961 decreased to something like 2,000 or less than 2,000 in comparison with some 4,000 to 7,000 in previous years. This was a real danger sign because if that position were repeated this year it might have disastrous results.

Deputies may or may not be aware that the cycle for salmon is four years and the results of this small escapement of spawning stock would become apparent very quickly. In 1959, another bad year, there were no steps taken towards conservancy. It is not quite clear nor can the experts be satisfied why the salmon did not move up in sufficient numbers last year. The fish undoubtedly were there but, for whatever reason, they did not go up towards the spawning beds with the result that we have had this low escapement figure.

The Deputies mainly concerned with this realise that it is vital for the people for whom they speak that the future of this fishery should be ensured and that the fishery should be kept in good heart. From 90 per cent. to 95 per cent.— and this is my information— of the net fishermen who operate there come from this side of the Border and if the fishery suffers from lack of stock, they would be the first to suffer. The escaping fish determine, and will determine, the whole fishery system of the Foyle.

The Commission took this step and were naturally reluctant to take it. They felt it their duty to take this step in the interests of preserving this very valuable fishery which I think is agreed to be one of the most valuable fisheries in the whole country.

To the Commission and not to the fishermen.

I wish to point out that the time has expired for the motion.

Perhaps the House will permit me to say this. The drift men have been met and while, as I said earlier, they agreed on conservation measures, they were not prepared to suffer any conservation or restrictive measures. The net fishermen are being met by the Commission during the coming week. Under Section 4 of the Order, I should like Deputies to appreciate, the Order can be suspended by the Commission. The Commission will have power to suspend it this very year, if the run of fish justifies it. If the run of fish comes up to expectations in July, the Commission can, and my information is, will, suspend the effect of this Order. It is the risk of having two successive very bad years that would endanger the whole propagation system in this river. Therefore, the Commission will no doubt listen to the views that will be put before them this week by the net fishermen concerned. If this is a normal year as far as fish runs and escaping are concerned, the Commission have the power, with my authority and that of my opposite number in the Northern Parliament—and it is the intention—to suspend for the rest of the season the operation of the Order. In view of that situation, I would suggest that the movers of this motion withdraw it.

Would the Minister not consider it advisable to consult with his opposite number in Stormont, with a view to making a request to the Commission that instead of interfering with the livelihood of the fishermen, they would suspend their own fishing ?

If time allowed, Sir, I would deal with that and the many other matters raised.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 27: Níl, 58.

  • Belton, Jack.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Brian, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Harte and O.J. Flanagan; Níl: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan.
Question declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, March 20th, 1962.
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