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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Mar 1962

Vol. 194 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £8,227,080 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of Grants-in-Aid.

The net Estimate for my Department amounts to £12,905,080, the gross Estimate being reduced by appropriations-in-aid totalling £4,353,571. As shown in the Estimate volume, that is an increase of £1,746,580 over 1961/62. An additional provision of £460,000 for my Department in February last in the global Vote for Increases in Remuneration has, however, to be taken into account also, and the actual net increase is, therefore, £1,286,580. As increases in the grants-in-aid to Radio Éireann, made up largely of increased licence fee revenue for transfer to the Authority, amount to £238,600, the increase in the net provision for the services directly provided by my Department is £1,047,980. This is attributable mainly to increased staff costs and to the continuing expansion of the telephone service.

The following subheads contain substantial variations:

In regard to Subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—the Estimate Volume shows an increase of approximately £1,245,000, but to this year's provision must be added the additional £460,000 granted, since the Volume was prepared, to meet increases in remuneration in 1961/62. The actual increase is, therefore, £785,000, and is due mainly to having to meet the cost for a whole year of the increases in remuneration. In addition, provision has been made for additional engineering workmen for the expanded construction programme, and for maintenance requirements which grow as the system expands, and for additional telephonists.

Under Subhead C—Accommodation and Building Charges—there is an increase of £50,000 which is mainly due to the requirements of telephone development: £40,000 being for the acquisition of sites and buildings and £7,000 for rent for storage of poles.

In subhead F—Engineering Stores and Equipment—the major portion of the increase of £979,000 is to meet the requirements of the expanded telephone construction programme both for the direct purchase of stores and for payments to contractors. As in the case of the telephone buildings provided for in the previous subhead, expenditure on telephone construction is treated as a capital charge and recovered from Telephone Capital funds by way of appropriations-in-aid. Incidentally, Deputies will probably have noticed that expenditure on equipment for civil aviation and meteorological wireless services has been transferred to the Vote for Transport and Power, where it is fitted into the general picture of airports expenditure.

In subhead G—Telephone Capital Repayments—the increase of practically £177,000 in the annuities which repay to the Central Fund the capital advanced for the development of the telephone service is a consequence of continuing heavy investment.

Subhead K.1—Grant Equivalent to Net Receipts from Broadcasting Licence Fees (Grant-In-Aid)—provides a grant-in-aid for the transfer to Radio Éireann the net revenue from television and sound receiving licence fees. The increase of £222,000 is to provide for the yield from a larger number of television licence fees and from the application of the increased sound licence fee over a whole year.

In subhead T—Appropriations-In-Aid—the increase of slightly over a million pounds is almost entirely due to an increase of £1,000,000 in the amount to be recovered from Telephone Capital funds in respect of the telephone development programme.

In comparison with the previous year, combined letter and parcel postings rose by about 16 million or 5 per cent. Christmas traffic set a record. The railway strike at Cork and other southern stations seriously dislocated postal services in November and early December. Parcel post had to be partially curtailed but the letter services were maintained, though with difficulty, by means of the Department's own transport.

I mentioned this time last year that the new postal address numbering scheme for Dublin had got off to an encouraging start. I am glad to say that it has continued to make good progress. By now 46 per cent of mail posted in Dublin for delivery there bears the district number and the overall figure for local, domestic and foreign mail delivered there is 42 per cent. The percentage is rising steadily from month to month, fresh publicity appeals are planned and, judging from the generous initial response given by the public, the success of the numbering scheme seems assured. It is important that it should succeed, for use of the appropriate district number simplifies sorting and reduces the risk of delay to mail.

Through its membership of the Universal Postal Union, the Department keeps itself informed of experiments and developments in the mechanisation of mail handling undertaken by other postal administrations; normally it is not in a position to conduct independent research in this field.

I am, however, glad to be able to mention one modest achievement of our own. A machine for date stamping packets was invented by a member of the engineering staff and an experimental model was produced in the Department's own factory. The machine is being tried out, under actual working conditions, in the Dublin letter office and, so far, its performance has been very satisfactory.

On the foreign side, the outward traffic, particularly parcels, continued to show a healthy trend. Air mail parcels increased by 32 per cent, and the total for both air and surface parcels went up by 19 per cent.

Two special postage stamps were issued in 1961 to commemorate the Patrician Year and the 25th Anniversary of the founding of Aer Lingus. This year, in addition to the one in honour of John O'Donovan and Eugene O'Curry, we will join with other members of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations in the issue, in September, of a special stamp of a common design sponsored by that body.

Telegraph and telex services followed the pattern of recent years. The estimated total number of telegrams handled during the year ending 31st March, 1962, is approximately 1,764,000 which is a drop of one per cent, on the number for the previous year.

The telex service, which is now over six years old, continues to develop. The number of subscribers is now 157 compared with 140 last year and the number of messages is increasing steadily; last year there were well over 300,000 telex messages. The conversion of the system to automatic working, which I referred to last year, is expected to be completed about mid-1963. This will make the service even more attractive for subscribers as they will be able to dial direct any other telex subscribers in these islands and also subscribers in many Continental countries. Under the automatic system, sub-exchanges will be set up at Cork and Shannon Airport and eventually, perhaps, at other places depending on developments.

It is expected that the loss on the telegraph service will amount to about £135,000 during 1961/62 or approximately the same as for the previous three years. Costs have, however, increased as a result of recent pay awards and an increase in the loss for the coming year is inevitable.

The telephone service continued to grow in 1961. Call traffic increased by 9 per cent. approximately to 158.5 million, comprising some 144 million local and 14.5 million trunk calls.

The trunk mileage added to the system was 18,400 miles, an increase of over 50 per cent. on the figure for 1960. The additional circuits were provided mostly in underground and aerial cables and in the form of microwave radio circuits.

The number of subscribers' exchange lines provided was 14,500 approximately as compared with 15,300 in the previous year; one large and 11 small automatic exchanges were opened; the equipment at 163 exchanges was extended and 80 extra telephone kiosks were provided.

An important development during the year was the extension of subscriber trunk dialling to the major automatic exchanges. All subscribers, apart from those with coin box installations, in the Athlone, Cork, Drogheda, Dublin, Dundalk, Galway, Limerick, Mullingar, Naas, Sligo and Waterford automatic areas comprising approximately 65 per cent. of the total number, can now dial calls to one another. Similar facilities will be provided at most of the other automatic exchanges within the next two years or so and will normally be incorporated from the start in all new automatic exchanges.

The equipment for the conversion of some 60 exchanges to automatic working in the Balbriggan, Ballyshannon, Croom, Curragh Camp, Kildare, Kinsale, Midleton, New Ross Roscommon and Tuam areas has been delivered and the work of installation will now be carried out as rapidly as possible. Contracts have been placed for automatic equipment for some 20 other areas comprising about 90 exchanges including An Uaimh, Arklow, Athy, Bandon, Mallow, Portlaoise, Shannon Airport, Tullamore and Wicklow. Completion of some of these schemes may, however, take up to three years.

During the year trunk circuits were provided on radio links between Athlone and Galway and between Sligo and Donegal. A microwave circuit will shortly be brought into service between Dublin and Arklow. Completion of the microwave link between Waterford, Wexford and Enniscorthy has, unfortunately, been delayed and is now expected early next year. A contract has recently been placed for a microwave system between Tralee and Limerick as part of a major scheme to link Killarney, Tralee, Listowel and a number of places in County Limerick with the main cable network at Limerick. Another contract covers the provision of a microwave link between Limerick and Athlone. A new trunk cable from Cork to Fermoy is now in service; others in the Midleton and Mallow areas have been completed and others elsewhere are either in progress or in various preparatory stages. These include Cork and Macroom, Waterford and Clonmel—due for completion this year—and links between Carlow and Portlaoise, Letterkenny and Lifford, Letterkenny and the Inishowen Peninsula which are due to be started this year. In addition, substantial numbers of extra circuits will be provided by means of carrier equipment on open wire routes and by fitting additional equipment on the coaxial cables; aerial cabling will be erected on over 50 routes and some hundreds of miles of open wire will be provided on various minor routes.

Forty-eight additional circuits were provided to Great Britain via Belfast during 1961 and it is hoped to provide a similar number early next year. The question of providing additional direct circuits on a large scale—either by another submarine cable or a high capacity microwave link—is still being considered.

The special television microwave link between Kippure and the studios at Montrose was also provided for Radio Éireann by my Department; we expect to complete the other links required to feed programmes to the four provincial transmitters later in the year.

I mentioned last year that some reduction in the rate of connection of new telephones and a consequential increase in the waiting list could hardly be avoided because of the need to devote a greater proportion of our resources to trunk and exchange development. In the event, as I have indicated above, the number of new connections was lower and the mileage of additional trunk circuits substantially higher last year than in 1960. The rate of connection of new subscribers was also affected by shortages of underground plant in cities and towns and of subscribers' equipment at some exchanges. It was also adversely affected by storm damage in the latter months of the year.

The waiting list has now risen to 10,000 and, while I would like to announce that it will not increase further, I am afraid we must, in the interests of subscribers generally, continue for some time to concentrate our efforts on improvement of the trunk and exchange services. This is necessary because delays and difficulties in connecting calls in the conditions in which the service is now operated can have a kind of snowball effect and throw unmanageable loads on exchanges—automatic as well as manual. This increases the delay in answering subsequent callers and produces poor service generally. Some exchanges experienced such conditions during peak traffic periods last year.

The fact is, of course, that the telephone service is a highly integrated one and the intake of new subscribers cannot with safety be greatly increased without a corresponding expansion in the capacity of the system as a whole. Ideally, the latter should come first in anticipation of demand. In recent years the connection rate has increased much faster than it has been possible to expand the trunk and exchange systems, particularly as we have had a great volume of arrears to be made good not only in local cabling schemes but in the form of more expensive schemes which were deferred in the past to conserve capital and are now urgent. The trouble is to get more than a few such schemes started at the same time. I have already referred to some such schemes which are now under way; others are in various stages of planning.

Unfortunately, the implementation of major schemes involves the acquisition of sites, the erection of new buildings etc., and, in general, is a lengthy process. There are long delays too in getting delivery of most kinds of telecommunication equipment owing to expansion of world demand in this field. I hope, however, that sufficient progress will have been made in providing additional trunk and exchange equipment by the end of this year to enable the rate of connecting new telephones to be stepped up. In the meantime we will, of course, continue to meet applications for telephones in the priority categories and a substantial part of ordinary demand.

In the light of what I have said, Deputies will understand that the capital requirements of the telephone service are heavy and are likely to become heavier. I have persuaded the Minister for Finance to let me have a capital provision of £3.5 million for 1962/63 as compared with £2.5 million for 1961-62 and an average of well under £2 million in previous years. About half the £3.5 million is intended for trunk and exchange schemes and the other half for subscribers' and renters' circuits, subscribers' underground plant, etc.

Business in the Post Office Savings Bank continues to increase. At the 31st December, 1961, the total balance, including interest, due to depositors was approximately £91.5 millions as compared with £86.7 millions at the end of the previous year.

Deposits during the year amounted to £19.2 millions, and withdrawals, to £16.6 millions, representing increases of slightly over one million pounds, and over half a million pounds, respectively, compared with the preceding year. About £1.5 millions of the withdrawals were for re-investment in Exchequer Stock, Savings Certificates or Prize Bonds.

Deposits and withdrawals by the Trustee Savings Banks during the year amounted to approximately £1.34 millions and £.67 millions respectively and were roughly the same as in the preceding year. The total amount, including interest, to the credit of the Trustee Banks at the end of the year was £16 millions, an increase of rather more than a million pounds.

The mechanisation of Savings Bank headquarters accounting was successfully completed during the year. In addition to improving the service to depositors, the change-over has produced savings, allowing for cost of the equipment, of about £50,000 a year.

Sales of Savings Certificates for 1961 amounted to £3.5 millions and repayments, including interest, to £2.48 millions—a slight increase in each case over the previous year. The net accretion for the year was about £1 million. Approximately £150,000 of the repayments were re-investment in Exchequer Stock or Prize Bonds.

Post Offices throughout the country continued to co-operate in the issue of Prize Bonds and approximately £8 millions of the £26 millions of Prize Bonds issued to date were collected through Post Offices.

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that I believe that the continuing increase in savings, with all that means both for individuals and the community, is due to a considerable extent to the publicity and organising work done by the Savings Committee. The members deserve our best thanks for their efforts.

The Department's remittance services continued to be widely used for the transfer of funds. The total value of money orders and postal orders issued in 1961 was £22.6 millions, an increase of about half a million pounds over the preceding year. The number of orders issued was 10.3 millions, a reduction of over 100,000 on the previous year, and accordingly, the average value of both money orders and postal orders increased. This development is a welcome one from the Department's point of view since it tends to reduce handling charges, and obviously it also meets the requirements of the public. It arises, at least in part, from the greater use of the higher value money orders and postal orders introduced two years ago.

Social Welfare and related payments totalled £29.5 millions, an increase of over £2.5 millions on the preceding year.

During 1961, seven new automatic telephone exchange buildings and one new automanual exchange building were erected. A new public office was provided at Shannon Airport and improvements were made to Gorey post office and to the public office at Mallow. Work was under way on the building of a new post office at Wicklow, on the erection of six other automatic exchange buildings, and on major improvements to Carrick-on-Shannon, Ennis, Killarney and Wexford post offices.

This year work has already started on one new automatic exchange building and on a major scheme of improvements at Sligo post office. It is expected that within a few months work will commence on new post office buildings at Ballinasloe and Youghal and on a further eight telephone exchanges. Other major projects which are also expected to start this year are a new trunk exchange for Dublin, a new district sorting office at Finglas, and improvements at Limerick post office.

As regards the proposed new central sorting office for Dublin a contract for the structural steel-work has been placed and tenders have been invited for site clearance and foundation works. It is expected that the foundation and steel erection work will have been completed and the main building work started by the end of the year 1962-63.

The number of staff provided for in the Estimate is 17,066 an increase of 487 over last year's figure. The bulk of this additional staff comprises engineering workmen and telephone operating force required to cater for the continuing growth and expansion of the telephone system.

As I mentioned earlier, the provision for salaries and wages shows an increase of £1,244,700 as compared with last year. Roughly £1,100,000 of this is attributable to the pay increases. The vast majority of post office staff come within the scope of the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme for the Civil Service and claims on behalf of all the Departmental grades within the scheme were dealt with during the year. I am happy to say that the majority of the claims, representing over 90 per cent of the staff, were settled by agreement.

During the past year, too, claims for reductions in weekly hours of work were conceded for a number of grades, principally engineering workmen, post office clerks and telephonists and these reductions were applied as far as possible towards giving the staff concerned a half-day weekly or a day-off per fortnight. It is, however, necessary to recruit additional staff to cater for the reduced output resulting from the shorter working week and approximately 60 of the 487 additional staff mentioned earlier are attributable to this.

The Department is keenly conscious of the need to keep its costs as low as possible by good organisational practices. Methods, techniques and staffing in every branch of its activities are subject to continuous review. The Department pioneered Organisations and Methods—O. & M. as it is called —in the Civil Service and having proved its value, applied it all through its clerical operational and technical work. To take some instances: the Accountant's Branch present staff of 694 is 35 heads fewer than in 1948 although in the interval the number of telephone accounts has trebled, and there has been a big increase in Savings Bank work and in the scale of the Department's activities. This impressive rise in productivity has been achieved by mechanisation and by streamlining accounting.

The telegraph service has been completely reorganised—morse has been eliminated and replaced by combined telephone-teleprinter transmission of messages. This reorganisation, together with the fall in traffic, has reduced the staff employed on telegraphs by nearly 500 heads. Since 1948 the total number of telephones has been nearly trebled and the number of new lines provided each year has increased by almost 150 per cent. The total number of engineering staff, on the other hand, has increased by only 83 per cent.

On the postal side, sorting office fittings have been modernised, mail circulation arrangements revised and mechanical aids installed wherever they would be economic; the entire rural services have been reorganised, a twelve year task which has given a better all round standard of service and a six-day frequency of service throughout the mainland. The postman force is actually less now than it was in 1948 although (1) the volume of mail delivered is 26 per cent. greater (2) a 6-day frequency of delivery is afforded on 1,100 posts which in 1948 operated on three, four or five days a week only and (3) the sprawling growth of Dublin and housing development in some of the major provincial cities have significantly added to the distance to be travelled by postmen.

It can truly be claimed that the Post Office has made notable progress in attaining greater productivity. To all grades of the staff, from the lowest to the highest, I express my thanks for their efficient and zealous service throughout the year.

The pay increases and reductions in working hours I have been talking about have had a very significant effect on the Department's financial position. The addition of over a million pounds a year to the wages bill is by far the largest increase in the Department's history. It cannot be offset by the normal growth in traffic which can be handled without a proportionate increase in staff or by any foreseeable improvement in organisation or in techniques. Neither can the situation be met by reducing services or facilities available at Post offices —these are at the lowest reasonable level already. So money must be found to meet the increased costs. And it can be found only by increasing charges or by a subvention from the taxpayer. I have chosen to obtain it in the first of these ways—the choice which any Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would, I think, make.

The Department is a quasi-commercial organisation rendering services to its customers in return for payment, and while it must carry some uneconomic services for social reasons, such as the telegraph service at present, it should in the sum of its activities and taking one year with another, earn sufficient to pay its way.

I may perhaps say that over its whole life so far and over the past ten years, it has just fallen short of achieving that. As Deputies can see from Appendix E on page 260 of the Estimates volume which shows the trading results of the Department on a commercial account basis, the Department has earned a small surplus in each of the past five years. In 1960/61, the last completed year, the surplus of £368,000, represented a margin of about four per cent. on the Department's expenditure. The surpluses in the past five years were quite insufficient to wipe out the deficits in the previous five years, and over the ten years period, the loss on the Department's services has amounted to almost £1 million.

In the current year, the surplus is expected to be of the order of £200,000. Next year, however, the increase of £1 million in wage costs would produce a deficit of about £360,000, after allowing for the need to make adequate provision for pension liability and telephone plant depreciation. Accordingly, it was decided to introduce increases in charges, calculated to yield a small surplus of about £300,000. As expenditure, on a commercial account basis, will run to £11 to £12 million, the margin of surplus proposed is only of the order of 3 per cent. That is a very small provision against such contingencies as rises in costs, other than staff costs, when the full effect of increased wages in transport and manufacture is felt, or an unforeseen drop in revenue, and will put the Department back into the position it has been in during the last few years.

The increases decided upon have already been publicised. As regards the raising of the minimum letter rate to 4d. I would like to emphasise that no other postal rate is being changed, that it is only the minimum rate which is being increased to 4d. and that letters above the minimum weight will cost no more than before and that finally the new rate will not be out of line with rates in European countries generally. On the telephone side, the main increase is the raising of subscribers' exchange line rentals by £1 10s. a year. While this may appear large and unreasonable to persons who will object to increases of any kind, I should like to point out that our exchange line rentals have not been raised since 1953 and that certain reductions were granted in 1959. Moreover, the increased rentals will still be well below the average annual cost to the Department per line in respect of interest, maintenance and provision for depreciation, which we estimate as being about £14 a year but we have not been getting this return from a large proportion of lines even when call revenue from both local and trunk calls in each case is added to the rental. This is a matter of some importance when one considers that the level of rentals affects the demand for new telephones and indirectly the total demand for capital.

As has already been announced the new postage rates will operate towards the end of April and the new telephone charges from the beginning of July.

As Deputies are aware, Radio Éireann derives its income from two main sources: from the net proceeds of licence fees, which can be made available only by vote of this House, and from receipts in respect of advertisements, and it is under a statutory obligation so to conduct its affairs that it will become self-supporting as soon as possible.

My functions regarding the broadcasting and television services are limited to certain matters specified in the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960. I have no responsibility for the programmes or for the ordinary day-to-day administration of the services provided by Radio Éireann. I do not, therefore, propose to report in detail on Radio Éireann's activities during the past year, particularly as Radio Éireann is obliged to furnish annual reports and accounts which must be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. There was some unavoidable delay in preparing the first report and accounts for the 10 months ended 31st March, 1961, and they will be presented shortly, but I have been assured that a similar delay will not arise in the presentation of the report and accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1962.

The commencement of the television service from the Kippure transmitter on New Year's Eve last was by far the most important development during the past year. This was a very big undertaking and the service is being provided under very great difficulties. For example, only a portion of the building at Montrose is occupied, staff and resources are scattered over a number of premises, the staff lack experience and have to make do with temporary facilities. However, these disabilities have been overcome by great enthusiasm and effort from the staff, and the public response has been gratifying.

With my approval, the Authority fixed the weekly hours for television broadcasting at 42 per week, with permission to go as high as 47 hours per week. With my approval also, the Authority fixed the total daily time for broadcasting television advertisements at ten per cent. of programme time, subject to a maximum of seven and a half minutes in any one hour. These arrangements will be subject to review from time to time.

At the moment, over 20 hours per week of the total of about 44 hours devoted to television broadcasting represents home-originated programmes. That is a much higher proportion of home-originated programmes than was originally thought possible and is a considerable achievement for any television service, particularly for the television service of a small country. Whether the Authority will be able to maintain the present volume of home output is a matter that it will only be possible to decide in the light of experience. It goes without saying that home-produced programmes cost much more than imported films and recorded programmes.

There has been considerable interest in the television service as an advertising medium and the initial volume-of advertisements placed with the Authority has been satisfactory. It is too early yet to make any definite predictions of television income and expenditure for 1962/63 but it is the Authority's objective to provide as good a service as it can, consistent with its obligations and capacity, and to extend the service to the whole country as quickly as possible.

The Authority has not yet determined in what order the provincial transmitters at Truskmore, Maghera, Mount Leinster and Mullaghanish will be brought into operation. A lot will depend on such factors as the delivery dates of the necessary equipment, which is on order, and the dates of completion of the northern and southern radio links which will carry the programmes from Kippure to the other transmitters and are being provided on a rental basis by my Department. These links are due to be completed late this year and the Authority hopes that by the end of the year viewers in practically all parts of the country will be able to receive the Telefís Éireann programmes.

The present transmissions from Kippure are on 405 lines, the standard at present in use in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As I announced on 18th August last, the Irish Television service will operate on a national standard of 625 lines using 8-megacycle channels with frequency modulated sound and negative picture modulation. It will be similar to the Western European standard except that it will use a wider vision band and so give an even better picture than the general European system. There will, however, be dual transmissions from Kippure and Truskmore on 405 and 625 lines.

This arrangement will be subject to review, but existing and prospective owners of 405 line sets in the areas to be served by the Dublin and Sligo transmitters are assured that 405 line transmitters will not be ceased without many years' notice being given to avoid premature obsolescence of such sets. Prospective purchasers of 405 line receivers outside the normal service area of the Dublin and Sligo 405 line transmitters should satisfy themselves about the quality of service they will obtain before purchasing receivers which are designed to receive 405 line transmissions only.

Since 1st January, 1962 holders of television sets require a special licence which costs £4 and covers sound as well as television. Some viewers were rather slow about taking out licences, and towards the end of February, my Department instituted an intensive drive against holders of unlicensed sets. The drive has been very successful and it is expected that the number of television licences in force will be of the order of 100,000 by 31st March, 1962.

I said last year that I had urged the Authority to give special attention to the problem of poor reception of the Athlone transmissions in certain parts of the country and that there had been discussions between technical officers of the Authority and of my Department but that no solution had been reached. During the year, the Authority necessarily gave priority to the establishment and extension of the television service but this particular problem has not been forgotten. Within the past few months some experimental work has been done on it and a modification of the earth system at Athlone has effected an all round improvement in the coverage of the Athlone transmitter. This improvement has been most marked in the sector north-east to south-east. The question of whether the coverage can be further improved in areas where reception is still poor is being studied.

During the year I consented to the Authority's decision to publish an official programme journal. The first issue of the journal—the RTV Guide— which is a valuable aid to selective listening and viewing appeared on 1st December, 1961.

When speaking on the Supplementary Estimate in November last I referred to the work of the Interference Advisory Committee which has been established under the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960. I am glad to say that the first set of draft regulations based on the committee's recommendations will shortly be on sale. The regulations will deal with interference caused by small electric motors—one of the principal causes of interference. It is the intention that the regulations shall apply not alone to users of electric motors but to manufacturers, assemblers, traders and importers of such motors for sale or hire in the State. During a period of two months interested parties may make representations to my Department suggesting variations of the draft.

The committee is now studying interference caused by internal combustion engines and by industrial, scientific and medical apparatus. As it is simply not practicable to avoid all interference, the committee can only recommend steps which will have the effect of bringing interference within tolerable limits. As I said before, the problem is so extensive that progress will necessarily be slow.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I should say I am dealing with this Estimate on behalf of our Party because Deputy Crotty has a cold which makes it impossible for him to use his voice.

The first comment that I think falls to be made on the introduction of this Estimate is that it is a little Budget of its own, calculated to impose an additional tax on our people of somewhere between £650,000 and £700,000 per annum. The Minister says he is doing what any other Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would do. I suppose the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of any Government, in the situation in which the Government find themselves, might do it. It is certainly a convenient way of raising revenue for the Minister for Finance, without taxes specifically named in the Budget.

The tax is now to be collected through the postage stamp which is not the exclusive perquisite of the rich in this country because it is the postage stamp that we put on an ordinary letter. That is to be increased by 33?rd per cent., from 3d to 4d. The Minister assures us that the stamps of higher denomination are not to be increased. The number of stamps of higher denomination used by the average citizen in this country is very limited. It is the ordinary people who put a stamp on a letter who will pay 33?rd per cent. more for that facility now than they have ever paid before.

The net result is that they and, I assume, the telephone users—who will have their rentals increased by £1-10-0 per annum—between them, will find approximately £700,000 more in order to meet the increased cost of £1,000,000 a year which the Minister speaks of as the sum necessary to meet the arbitration and conciliation award of the employees of the Post Office. It is fair and just that employees of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should be compensated for the rise in the cost of living.

Some day, the Fianna Fáil Party will waken up to the fact that the rise in the cost of living, which has amounted to 19 points in the past four years, will prove a very expensive operation on their part. How far the taxpayers and the ordinary people who post letters and who have telephones in their houses will be able to bear the increased burdens they are now called upon to meet is anybody's guess. One thing is certain. They must abstain from the use of the postal service, if they are not in a position to make a very material contribution to the revenue the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, between them, are resolved to raise in the course of the coming year.

The Minister announced blandly that the arrears of applications for telephones have now reached the astonishing figure of 10,000. The telephone service is the most profitable section of the operation of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Outside of Bedlam, has anyone ever heard of what the Minister describes as a quasi-commercial enterprise refusing to serve 10,000 customers who are anxious to deal with it repeatedly every day? I find myself almost wholly unable to understand the mentality which can produce that end result. I think I know the reasons for it. The reasons for it are that in our last year of office, we provided £1,627,000 for telephone capital. When the present Government came into office, they reduced that to £1,200,000.

The Deputy should tell the whole story and not leave it to me to tell it.

I shall tell the story as the Minister told it to me on 14th March, 1962. In 1958/59, they provided £1,400,000; in 1959/60 they provided £1,300,000.

They provided it under agreement with the Department of Finance to meet commitments already entered into on the understanding that they would reduce it in each succeeding year.

I am sorry I cannot follow the Minister there. All I know is that these are the capital appropriations made——

In the last year of Deputy Dillon's Government's office, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs utilised the figure the Deputy mentions but they did it on the understanding with the Department of Finance that it would be reduced the next year and the year after—when they were in office.

I am lost in admiration of the loyal subservience with which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs of the Fianna Fáil Government regards as binding on him understandings entered into by the——

I was not Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Any Minister of a previous Administration. One of the purposes of a change of Government is to render the incoming Government free to carry out their political undertakings, but surely the Minister——

I do not like to continue to interrupt the Deputy but capital is provided for the Telephone Capital Account on a five yearly basis and the Deputy knows that.

Surely the Minister who has now been in office for five years is scarcely in a position to say that inadequate capital provision is being made by him because he is restricted by an agreement someone else made with the Department of Finance five years ago? I suggest that the root of the trouble is not an agreement made with the Department of Finance five years ago, but an agreement made with the Treasury 50 years ago.

That could be.

An interesting paper was read by a distinguished member of the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on "The growth and Development of the Irish Telephone System" before the Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland—on 15th December, 1961. I commend it to anyone interested in a very interesting sidelight on the social history of this country. It recalls how the telephone system first started in Ireland under private ownership. It tells how in June, 1892, a Bill was passed in the British House of Commons authorising the expenditure of up to £1 million of which £459,000 was to pay for the company's trunk system. The Department took over the trunk system of this private company and the purpose they had in mind was to offset the loss they were making on the telegraph service. It is interesting that 60 years later they are still trying to devise a plan to offset the loss on the telegraph service. Here is an interesting fact: in 1892 the "development of the trunk service was very slow, however, as Treasury policy laid down that demand could not be anticipated but had to be assured before any extension to the network would be provided". I believe that is the root of this whole problem.

If the Deputy is making the case that we need fresh thinking on telephone development, I agree with him.

This most admirable paper really reflects great credit on everyone concerned in its preparation because not only is it a mine of information, but it is as readable as a novel. When you go into the history of this business you might imagine that the typically Gladstonian approach of 1892 would have been watered down or abandoned as the years rolled by—but not a bit of it. In 1940 this interesting development took place. The paper speaks of the problems that arose following the fall of France and says that special exertions by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs had to be undertaken to connect some remote areas. It goes on to say:

These circuits, together with some hundreds of miles of urgently required trunk lines, were all completed within the months of June and July of 1940. Among these latter was a trunk line from Ballina to Belmullet, which had hitherto been without telephone service. In previous years this project had been mooted on many occasions but had always been turned down because the demand could not be assured and, therefore, the scheme might not be remunerative.

Is it not interesting to hear in 1940 an echo of the old Treasury policy laid down in 1892? That is what is wrong. That is at the root of the whole business.

My recollection is—and I am speaking from recollection only—that at one time there was a question of laying one of these coaxial cables in a trench. I cannot remember how many lines it was expected would be in the cables but it was surely 1,000 lines. I recollect asking the question: "If you are going to open a trench extending 100 miles, and lay a cable, and if you have a demand for 999 lines what is the point of putting in 1,000 lines? Why not put in 2,000 lines?" My recollection is that the answer of the Department was: "You must never anticipate demand." I found that hard to believe and, therefore, I am fascinated when I find in this most modern and interesting paper the historical foundation for that extraordinary approach—it was Treasury policy in 1892 that demand could not be anticipated but had to be assured before any extension of the network could be provided.

Might I make a constructive suggestion to the Minister? I suggest that he should hold a conference forthwith with the Minister for Finance and say: "The Treasury policy as laid down in 1892 provides that demand cannot be anticipated in the telephone service but must be assured before any extension can be provided. As of 31st March, 1962, that Treasury decision is hereby cancelled and reversed and hereafter is to be regarded as never having been made."

In my opinion that will not fundamentally alter the approach of the Post Office. Because I have said that, it might appear that we here believe that the Post Office is an antediluvian and backward institution. If I thought that, it would be my duty to say so and I would say it, but I want to make it clear that that is not my argument. On the contrary, I believe the Post Office system in this country has attained, generally, a very high standard, and represents a branch of the public service with which, in my experience, it has always been a pleasure to deal. If it has the old tradition to which I have referred for the purpose of condemning the Treasury policy which I have described, it also has other fine old traditions. It is a Government Department set up to carry out the extremely difficult work of extending the telephone lines, cables and communications throughout the country on a purely voluntary basis, as opposed to the E.S.B. which were given very wide compulsory powers because their originating statute was enacted in 1927, in more modern times. The Post Office carries on very largely on the basis of voluntary agreements with various persons with whom it has to deal and that has resulted generally in a very high standard of public relations. We are fortunate to be able to boast of that and I now gladly pay the highest possible tribute to the Post Office.

That does not mean I believe it is perfect. I am quite sure it is no such thing. There are some common defects. Why is it accepted as normal in the city post office and in the post offices in the towns and cities throughout the country that there should be queues when you go to buy a postage stamp? Surely there could be a greater degree of flexibility among the Post Office staffs. If customers come to my shop down the country and want to buy anything from a lb. of tea to a pair of silk stockings, I do not get them to line up in a queue—they would not do it. They would go elsewhere.

Yet it is a common experience of us all that if you want to buy a stamp in a post office in Dublin, you may have to join a queue of ten or 15 people and move slowly up along to buy your stamp while, at the same time, there appear to be a number of clerks in that office doing nothing special, but they will not sell stamps. This may arise from a lack of flexibility which should be relatively easy of correction. It is a constant source of irritation and unfavourable comment amongst people and does a good deal to injure the public picture of the Post Office service. It is not a very formidable problem but it is one which ought to be tackled and overcome.

The Minister should make a further approach to the Minister for Finance and point out that the situation in which we have a backlog of 10,000 applications for telephones is undesirable and that further financial provisions should be made to deal with that situation. I do not suppose there is a Deputy who is not in constant correspondence with his constituents and with the Department, looking for telephones. That is quite wrong and it should not be beyond the ingenuity of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the Minister for Finance to overcome the problem.

I gather that the remuneration of the subpostmasters is a matter of some complexity. There is a great deal of discontent amongst them about their remuneration. I have drawn the Minister's attention to the extraordinary situation that under the method of assessing the new valuation of basic units by which remuneration is fixed, some of the subpostmasters are finding that they are getting less money for doing more work. The Minister has said that if his attention is drawn to any such anomaly by the conciliation body, it will receive his sympathetic consideration.

I cannot help feeling that whatever was the conciliation machinery set up by us in 1956 in the belief that it would work reasonably satisfactorily and meet all legitimate demands, it does not seem to be giving satisfaction at the present time and I should like to hear from the Minister whether he shares my view. There does seem to be a considerable amount of discontent amongst the subpostmasters and does the Minister not think it is time to review the whole conciliation machinery?

We had trouble and discontent not long ago with the Garda and some people attributed that to the fact that the established system of conciliation and consultation had ceased to function satisfactorily. Perhaps everybody put it on the long finger and so we had a great deal of trouble we need not have had. Now, when there has been a crisis, everybody is prepared to re-examine the whole machinery and find out where the fault lay. I have a feeling that the same kind of trouble is boiling up amongst the subpostmasters. It may be that the present system of conciliation is not flexible enough to meet their difficulties. If that is so, the Minister should meet them and ask them what is wrong with the system.

I am meeting them.

I am glad to hear it and I hope a satisfactory solution will be found. In view of the fact that the Minister does propose to meet them, I shall not dwell on the matter any further, save to wish the Minister good fortune in his discussions with them.

The Minister mentioned that the new postal address numbering system has got off to a good start and that he is anxious to see it progressing. If the Post Office could explain to the public how this numbering system helps in the sorting of letters, I think he would get very substantial increase in public support. I regard myself as a reasonably intelligent man but every time I put Dublin, 4. on a letter, I ask myself how it could help in sorting letters. I accept by an act of faith that it does, but if the Minister would explain to the public in some way how it facilitates the sorting of letters, he would get more assistance. The public are always prepared to help in a matter like this if they understand the system, but at present I do not understand it.

I saw a couple of programmes on television where a district nurse and other people were interviewed as to their daily round. It was very interesting and informative. I have no doubt the public would be interested to hear what the proposals of the head of the sorting department of the Post Office has in mind with this system of numbering and how it helps in the sorting of letters. The more you take the people into your confidence, the more help you are likely to get from them. If the public understand, you usually get a good response. While you may get a good response initially, the tendency is, when the first enthusiasm wears off and if the people are not fully informed as to what is needed, to cease to use the numbering system.

Perhaps I have been unfortunate in the matter I am about to mention but I feel that the system of prefixing numbers such as 042 and 041 when one wishes to get in touch with a provincial telephone exchange is not working well. Only yesterday I wanted to talk with somebody in Dundalk and found myself twice talking to a butcher in Mullingar. I must say that he was a very patient butcher in Mullingar but I finally had to ring the exchange and ask them to put me in contact with Dundalk, which they did. It is rather disconcerting when you want to establish contact with someone in Galway to discover you are talking to someone in Cork. In the eyes of the telephone people, that may not be extraordinary, but in the eyes of the ordinary user of the telephone, it is very disconcerting. Perhaps it is that in the early stages of installing systems of this kind breakdowns of this character occur but it is right, I think, that the Minister should know about them so that perhaps something can be done to improve the facilities the Minister seeks to make available.

Here is another matter on which I suggest further information should be imparted to the public. The Minister speaking on his desire to provide additional trunk circuits says he proposes the completion of a microwave link. The Minister knows what a microwave link is. I do not know but I suspect one of those saucer-like things standing on a mast at the end of St. Andrew Street is——

That is correct.

May I suggest to the Minister that it helps if he tells the public these unsightly saucers which are seen sprouting up over the city are designed to help in expediting the provision of additional trunk circuits? It was weeks before I could make out what on earth it was. I thought it was some part of radar defensive measures. It is not easy to realise you can project a telephonic message from a saucer in Andrew Street to a relatively remote area. I do not know how far it travels. Does the Minister know?

To Arklow.

Does it? These are most interesting facts.

There is another one at Howth that picks it up.

If the Minister would communicate these interesting facts to the public, they would better appreciate the facilities he is trying to provide. Will that system be extensively used in other parts of the country?

It will, yes.

It is equally efficient with the co-axial cable system?

It can take more messages. It is more expensive but it is much better than the other.

I suggest the Minister should tell us about these things. It will encourage us if we feel that drains have not to be dug from here to Cork before we can get more circuits.

It would be a pity not to have the drains dug.

If a saucer will work, there is plenty of other work for men to do. There are 10,000 people waiting for telephones. If we took the men off the drains and put them on to installing telephones, we would be better off.

The Americans are going to do it by satellites.

I do not suppose the Minister has any ambition in that direction yet.

The last matter I want to refer to is this. The Minister referred to broadcasting and television. I assume that when the report for the 10 months ended on 31st March, 1961, is presented, it will be available for debate in the House, if the House elects to debate it?

It has to be laid on the Table.

Therefore, it is a subject available for debate?

Owing to all the difficulties of the first year, we cannot be too critical if the first report has been excessively delayed. I note with satisfaction that the Authority undertakes in the future to ensure that the report will be presented reasonably promptly, and I reserve my observations in detail on that aspect of the Minister's Estimate for the occasion when these reports come before the House.

However, I must ask one question which is of special interest to County Monaghan. There is a large area in north Monaghan where Telefís Éireann cannot be received at all. By our legislation, these people are required to pay £4 for a television licence without which they may not have a television set. Heretofore, they had to pay no licence fee at all and they got admirable reception from U.T.V. and B.B.C. television.

The Minister has said he hopes for some improvement when the new transmitter is established at Ben Bulben. As regards the people in north Monaghan, it is hard to persuade them that that will give them any better reception, but I should like the Minister to feel free to say before the end of this discussion, that if that does not give them reception, he will feel bound to provide additional facilities that people who are required by law to pay £4 for a licence will be able to receive satisfactory telecasts. It is manifestly unjust to oblige people who have a set which they had heretofore free of any licence fee and from which they were getting excellent reception from the B.B.C. and U.T.V., to pay £4 a year when they are getting no reception at all.

There will be facilities for booster stations and the Authority will, when the broadcasting is fully in operation, have a look at these blind areas and see what can be done.

I want north Monaghan to be put on the schedule as No. 1 blind area.

Supposing the other two are left blind as a result of what they do, they would not like that?

They would not like it at all but I am assuming that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will act efficiently and circumspectly. These people would like to see television and they have a right to expect it when they are paying £4. The Minister went on to say that the commencement of the television service from the Kippure transmitter on New Year's Eve was by far the most important development of the past year. It would have been a very much better development if the Taoiseach had not appeared nine times on the first night. I make all allowances for the immense difficulties of the television authority's undertaking and of their efforts to make live broadcasts on a wide variety of events. I make allowance, too, for the fact that the Minister and the whole propaganda machine of the Fianna Fáil Party decided that there ought to be plenty of the Taoiseach seen on the first day. However, the thing became ludicrous before the day was over. His appearances were received with ribald cheers in more than one house. I am sure the Taoiseach himself realises that now as much as anybody else. As far as I am concerned, I prefer to forget about it. It was an error of judgment into which people might easily fall and it was so gross an error of judgment that it recoiled on those who inspired it.

There are certain aspects of this question of political broadcasts which fall within the proper ambient of our discussion here. I am prepared to accept that generally on the Estimate we will not discuss details of the programmes of Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann, provided it is clearly understood that when their annual report comes before us, that is the occasion upon which any proper matters relating to Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann should be thrashed out in so far as the House thinks it is necessary to do so; but there are certain aspects which, I think, are proper to our deliberations and urgently require attention.

In so far as Telefís Éireann purports to record the proceedings of this House, or in so far as Telefís Éireann undertakes to provide strictly political occasions on Telefís Éireann, there should be certain minimal requirements to be met. I will give an example of a case in point, a strictly political occasion. It is the occasion on which the Taoiseach, Deputy Corish, and I appeared in a kind of symposium, with the Bishop of Clonfert, on a matter of public interest, namely, the Common Market. That was a strictly political occasion. The other matter to which I want to refer is the report communicated to the public by the parliamentary correspondent on Telefís Éireann. We have a direct interest in these things. It is open to no authority to misrepresent the proceedings of this House and we have a duty to see that, in the political life of the country, certain minimal standards are prescribed.

I recognise there is a certain difficulty in dealing with any political situation on Telefís Éireann. Some people will criticise me for being too moderate in what I am about to say, but I believe moderation is the best approach. I recognise there are difficulties, but I think certain minimal requirements should be laid down. If Telefís Éireann invite the leaders of the three principal Parties to partake in a symposium, the minimum requirement should be that the presentation of the three persons invited should be identical. Now Deputy Corish and I went out and said what we had to say in connection with the Common Market. We made no conditions. We simply placed ourselves in the hands of the Television Authority and made whatever contribution we were in position to make on what we understood was a kind of public service programme, putting, as best it could, the views of all the political Parties before the public on a matter of wide public interest.

I saw that programme repeated. I assume the Taoiseach has employed a firm of publicity agents to present him favourably over the period of the next two years. That is his own business. He can employ Harry Lauder, if he can get him and has the money to pay him. But I do not think the Television Authority is entitled to decide that, whereas Deputy Corish and I will appear just in the ordinary course, the Taoiseach is to be presented like Peter Ustinov, with a background of the Continent of Europe behind him, sitting at an ornate desk, with the camera approaching him in the hands of a black and mysterious figure, and then his smiling countenance portrayed on the screen. We can all play ball, and act equitably or unfairly. If we do not act fairly, then the whole thing will be turned into an impossible pandemonium. I think the Television Authority is entitled to say that there ought to be an understanding that, if leaders of political Parties appear, they ought all to appear in identical circumstances.

I am prepared to go this far. If the head of the Government is par-taking, it is not a matter for complaint if he should ask for 12 or 15 minutes, and get them, while the leaders of Parties have made available to them five or ten minutes. I would not blame the head of the Government for that. I think that would be reasonable. But I think it is wrong, and will cause ill-feeling and distress, if there is a manifest effort made to present the Taoiseach, by theatrical trimmings, on an entirely different basis from that accorded to the leaders of the other political Parties who have been invited to participate in a public service programme of the character to which I have referred.

This is a matter to which, I think, Dáil Éireann should attend, and seek to lay down some reasonable and dignified general standards which can be adopted as a guide for all of us in the time that lies ahead. Now is the time to do that. Unless we can arrive at some reasonable and decent understanding, the television, in the dissemination of public service programmes of that kind, will become a menace rather than a blessing.

The other matter to which I want to refer is that the proceedings of this House must not be misrepresented. I do not underestimate the great difficulty there is in trying to give an objective report of the proceedings of Dáil Éireann. I am bound to say that, so far as my experience goes of the news broadcast nightly by Telefís Éireann, I have no reason to complain of the presentation of the news relating to the proceedings of this House; but, in regard to the Parliamentary correspondent, I have reason to complain. I do not want to misrepresent this matter; I merely want to mention it. I want to lay down what I consider to be fair, and I invite my colleagues to comment upon that. I feel that the Parliamentary correspondent in describing the proceedings of this House should feel himself bound by a very special obligation of objectivity, that is to say, that he will faithfully report to the best of his ability what the leading protagonists of the various views said; and, if he does not feel himself free to do that, he should not seek to report them at all.

I shall not dwell further on that. It may be everybody is doing his best. I should be less than honest if I pretended that the best that is being done to date has met what I consider to be the minimal standard of objectivity, and with less than that I shall not be contented, for I believe that less than objectivity in the reporting of this House would be gravely inimical to the prestige of Dáil Éireann itself. In my judgment, this Dáil, to which we are privileged to belong, is the most important institution in the public life of this country and all other public services—Telefís Éireann and everything else—have a duty and obligation to Oireachtas Éireann to see that what they have to say of it will be, first, respectful and, secondly, objective. Less than that will not, in my opinion, if I know the Oireachtas as I think I do, be satisfactory to the membership of this House, which, in matters of this kind, is not, in my judgment, unreasonably exacting.

What I have had to say has not been on the whole unduly critical. I am happy to have been able to pay a high tribute to the general standard set by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, but I should be less than frank if I did not conclude by saying that I consider the present increase in the provision of a telephone service to be little less than a public scandal. The present Minister, or any successor who may be called upon to fill the post, is bound to report to the Minister for Finance that the position is one he will no longer tolerate; and I trust the Minister will be fortified from both sides of this House in going to the Department of Finance and saying, once and for all: "The Treasury policy of 1892 must be regarded as dead, and I must have made available to me such capital as will enable me to meet the reasonable requirements of a modern society, which I am charged to serve."

The statement read by the Minister will convince the House that the Post Office organisation is one of sturdy growth, that it is alert and shows abundant evidence of progressive outlook and activities in many fields of endeavour. When you remember that we took over from the British 40 years ago with a deficit of approximately £1,000,000 or more in the first year of operation, the House is entitled to feel proud of the fact that in the current year, a surplus of £300,000 will be yielded by the Post Office, notwithstanding the fact that to-day its activities are infinitely greater and much more widespread and far-flung than they were 40 years ago. That is a great tribute to the Post Office as an organisation, but, in addition, it is a tribute to the capacity, administrative experience and sense of dedication which actuate all those associated with the Post Office as a great public service. I want to record my appreciation and admiration of the competence, the high level of ability and foresight which produce results such as those which are crystallised in the speech read by the Minister to-day.

There are some matters I should like to raise on behalf of the staff and some others on which I should like to get information. So far as subpostmasters are concerned, I should like to tell the Minister I recently saw a deputation from this body and discussed with them at considerable length the problems confronting them to-day. It was believed that the establishment of a Consultative Council some years ago would provide them with the means of meeting official representatives and discussing their problems jointly. In that way it was hoped considerable progress would be made in meeting the reasonable claims of the subpostmasters throughout the country.

I am sorry to say that the Consultative Council has really broken down completely. These people have no faith whatever in the present Consultative Council. That has very largely to do with the fact that the Consultative Council is not producing results as far as they are concerned. They meet the official representatives, argue the merits or demerits of the case brought before the Council but, in the long run, when the meeting is over, when they rule off and tot up what they have got, they find the results are appallingly small from their point of view. They are meagre and give them no sense of satisfaction. If the Minister is to retain the goodwill of these people and avoid what I am afraid will be a major crisis in the very near future, he would be well advised to examine this matter further to see whether some scheme of arbitration could not be devised so as to enable these people to have their problems adjudicated upon by an independent arbitrator when they have failed to get a reasonable settlement at conciliation level.

What they are getting at present is really handed-down decisions. There is no more irritating method of negotiating with anybody. The handed-down decision is something they will no longer accept, as they read almost every day in the papers that almost everybody in the country can go to the Labour Court, not only go to the Labour Court but are dragged to the Labour Court, if they have a dispute at all. Everybody wants them to go to the Labour Court. They are told: "You must go to the Labour Court. That is the place to settle your problem." But the sup-postmaster is told to go to the Consultative Council. He meets the Post Office administrators at the other side of the table and they say: "No, we cannot go another farthing above this. We have our written instructions, and beyond those instructions we cannot go."

People become very irritated with that kind of treatment. The subpostmasters are still receiving it, and if the Minister sees them he will know about it. I suggest to the Minister that nothing could be worse or more short-sighted than to try to make a piece of machinery work in which half the participants, namely, the subpostmasters, have no faith whatever. I believe a reasonable arbitration scheme could be devised and would give the same results and satisfaction as it has given in other branches of the Civil Service where it is in operation. Nobody wants to interfere with it and everybody recognises it has produced not only good-will and contentment but efficiency as well.

The Minister ought to consider the question of establishing an arbitration board as an auxiliary to the Consultative Council, so that if the subpostmasters do not get a reasonable measure of satisfaction between themselves and the official side, at least some independent authority in whom both sides have confidence will adjudicate on the merits of the dispute. If they lose at that level, they have got to realise it is because impartial people do not take the same view of their problems as they do themselves; and in any case there can be no suggestion that there is an unreasonable attitude being adopted towards them.

There are some matters in the Minister's speech to which I should like to make reference. The Minister said that the number of telegrams received and transmitted during the year was 1,764,000 and that this represented a drop of one per cent. as compared with the previous year. That one per cent. drop is probably the smallest percentage fall there has been for some years. Within the last ten years the percentage fall has been much higher than that. Are we to conclude from that that the Post Office feel they have got to rock bottom so far as the fall in telegraphic traffic is concerned or do they feel that the continuing extension of the Telex machine is likely to make further in-roads on the use of the telegram? Can the Post Office now plan on the assumption that the present volume of telegraphic traffic will remain fairly static or is it possible there may be another steep fall in the volume of telegraphic traffic at some time in the future? I should like to get information in that regard from the Minister if he has it to give.

The Minister on page 15 of his speech referred to Post Office buildings. Here, of course, the same problem has arisen as was manifested in connection with telephone development. The Post Office was unable to foresee the extent to which post offices would be utilised for expanded services, postal and telephone, with the result that many post offices throughout the country are utterly inadequate not only from the point of view of staff but from the point of view of the public who have to use them. The space available is so small that a relatively small number of people at some of the public counters makes them crowded and causes disorganisation. Quite clearly, when these offices were erected very little thought or imagination was given to the necessity to take into account the growth and extension in the use of Post Office services.

The Minister made reference to some offices to which improvements would be carried out this year and to others where perhaps new buildings would be erected, such as, for instance, Ballinasloe and Youghal. He spoke also of a new district sorting office at Finglas. Could he give us a statement setting out what towns in the country, in his opinion, need new post offices and what is the Post Office programme for supplying these new offices in these areas and in what towns are there extensive reconstruction plans so as to supply the Post Office with adequate premises for the accommodation of the public and staff?

A programme of that kind is not indicated in the Minister's statement and I should like him to set out the places where the new offices are required and what is the programme for the fulfilment of the general building needs of the Post Office. I notice on page 43 of the Book of Estimates for the current year, in Vote 9—Public Works and Buildings—that the Board of Works indicate that this year they will provide new works, alterations and additions for the Post Office Department which are estimated to cost £249,000. Would the Minister indicate what is covered in the way of new buildings, alterations and additions by that £249,000 and to what extent will that sum make an impression on the reconstruction and new building work which is so necessary, if the Post Office is to be provided with satisfactory premises for the transaction of its constantly expanding business?

I am glad to note from the Minister's speech that a contract for the structural steelwork has been placed and tenders have been invited for the site clearance and the foundation work on a new central sorting office for Dublin. That is almost a monumental achievement, a great triumph over forces of almost satanic strength which for about 40 years, have managed to prevent a new sorting office being erected in Dublin, but I am glad the project is now looking as if it will reach maturity in the next few years. I should like to ask the Minister could he give any indication when this main building work will be completed. I notice he says he hopes it will start towards the end of the next financial year.

Could the Minister say whether his Department or the Board of Works have in mind any date for the completion of the work of erecting the building, so that we could know approximately when Dublin will have a proper sorting office instead of what it has had for the past 40 years—an old, decrepit distillery which has been utilised in a most makeshift fashion for the discharge of duties which are proper to a central sorting office in a big capital city like Dublin? Nonetheless, I congratulate the Minister on the fact that this thing is now moving and many hearts would be gladdened if a target date could be set for the completion of this monumental work.

I think it will take about four or five years to complete it. The installations will take a long time.

I take it will be modernised and mechanised in accordance with the latest policies and practices.

Yes. It will be something worth looking at.

Before I pass from buildings, the Minister said a new district sorting office would be provided for Finglas and I would ask if there is any proposal to have a similar office in the Raheny area. Is it intended that not only will these be district sorting offices but that they will be branch offices as well, officially staffed branch offices as distinct from the ordinary district sorting offices? Perhaps the Minister would let me know whether Raheny is on the list and whether the branch sorting office at Finglas will transact all sorts of post office business as well.

I raised on this Estimate on a previous occasion the quality of the uniforms supplied to postmen. I think the quality—I am not talking about the design—is very inferior and that it gives the postman a very untidy look because no matter what he does, he cannot prevent it from attracting dust. It seems to pick up stains of a most stubborn kind at the slightest provocation. Over and above that, whatever class of material is used—it is a dyed material obviously—when the postman gets wet, as he is prone to do in this country, in this climate, the dye runs on to his shirt and ruins the shirt and destroys the collar. Apart from the material being inferior, it appears to be badly dyed as well. The dye is not a fast dye and there are complaints about the way postmen's underwear is being destroyed.

I suggest the Minister take an interest in the matter and see that postmen are provided with uniforms that will stay neat, tidy and attractive. It is in the interest of the postman himself that he should appear before the public as a credit to the great service in which he works but he cannot look attractive or tidy in the present quality uniform. I suggest this matter should be discussed again with representatives of the staff to see if a better quality cloth could not be got in order to produce a better uniform, one which would be a credit to the service.

The same goes for the protective clothing supply. If it has any quality, it is its ability to stick. You cannot get it open. Efforts have been made, I know, by the Post Office to find a satisfactory protective cape but they do not seem to be able to find it. It is strange that, in 1962, we cannot get a proper cape to provide adequate protection for postmen on walking and cycling duties. It seems to me it could be got if a proper price were paid for it. Therefore, some effort ought to be made to explore the possibilities of providing better protective clothing for postmen on walking and cycling duties.

I come to the question of the Office Premises Act which was passed by this House and which applies to the Post Office and other Government Departments in the same way as it applies to the private office. Some of the buildings in Dublin, particularly buildings like Pearse Street, the Parcel Office in Fowler Hall, the Parcel Office in Amiens Street, are old buildings which were not built as Post Offices. They are more store houses than offices.

There are constant complaints from the staff about the lighting of those places, the inadequate heating, the draughts. All these shortcomings are transgressions by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of the provisions of the Office Premises Act. The Post Office proceed as if the Act does not apply to them. The draughts are as they were ten years ago. The heating and lighting are bad. The Post Office do nothing about the matter.

The Post Office are obliged to observe the provisions of the Act the same as any other owner of office premises. The Minister ought to ensure that, until such time as decent offices are provided in Dublin, the shortcomings of the present offices will be eliminated as far as technical capacity can do that. Generally speaking, he ought to ensure in respect of lighting, heating, ventilation and the prevention of draughts that the Post Office will endeavour to comply with the provisions of the Act by which they are bound, the same as any other owner of office premises throughout the country.

I want to join with Deputy Dillon in some of the references which he has made to Telefís Éireann. I do not want to develop the matter at any length. It is a pity it has to be discussed at all. It is not my desire, either, to discuss it or to make a first class issue of it but I think the way Telefís Éireann starts very largely creates in the public mind the image of what it is. I asked questions of the Minister to ascertain the number of Deputies who appeared on Telefís Éireann between two particular dates. He said that that was not within his sphere. He suggested that an inquiry should be made from Telefís Éireann.

The plain fact of the matter is— there is no use in trying to hide or to justify it—that, in its first three weeks or month or six weeks of operation, Telefís Éireann had-more Fianna Fáil Deputies than Deputies from all the other Parties in the House, many more. I do not mind if Fianna Fáil want to run a television station on their own but they ought to pay for it. This television station belongs to the nation. Every Party in the House is entitled to a fair share of it in respect of those discussions which have a political complexion or which relate to public questions.

I do not object to Fianna Fáil getting an adequate share of television publicity. I do not object to Fianna Fáil getting half whatever time is available there for political discussion or for discussions on public questions with which the Deputies of political Parties are involved. I do object to Fianna Fáil getting five or six times the publicity the other Parties in the House get. It is not fair. It is a distorted view by Telefís Éireann or whoever is responsible, whether the Authority or some top level executives, of their functions.

In regard to Radio Éireann, where there were political broadcasts at the time of the Budget or at the time of an election, it was always possible to work out an even balance between Parties. That generally gave satisfaction. Telefís Éireann starts off thinking that the best opening gambit is six to one against the Opposition and it will probably settle for five to one if you go to negotiate with them. They ought to be told by the Minister, because of their unfamiliarity with the Irish scene, that they have not got this thing balanced out. I do not mind who appears on it or what way it is balanced. I do not mind who is selected because of certain qualifications or knowledge of a particular sphere.

When you rule off, you ought to have a certain balance between the Government on the one hand and the Opposition on the other. That is not an unreasonable request to make. If the Telefís Éireann authorities will not make that arrangement themselves then the Minister, as a sensible man, ought to step in and say, as I am sure he believes it to be equitable, that they ought to balance it in that kind of way.

It is a mistake that should be remedied at this stage. I hope a rectification will be applied to eliminate the necessity of discussing it on an Estimate or of having an annual row about it whenever the Report of Telefís Éireann is presented to the House. I am sure that this matter can be settled easily if some authority takes it in hand. If it is allowed to drift, the issue will get more angry as the weeks pass by. Irreparable harm will be done to what ought to be the high integrity and impartiality of the Telefís Éireann Authority.

The Minister indicates, in relation to the telephone services, that there are about 10,000 applications on hand and that, because of the necessity to provide more junctions and outlets for existing subscribers, the most he can do in the future is to deal with the priority cases and perhaps some of the non-priority cases. Deputy Dillon says —rightly so—that it is a great pity that, because of want of foresight, the Post Office should be so starved of equipment as not to be able to take these applications for telephones to be installed.

It must be obvious today, and I am sure it will be obvious ten years hence, that rising living standards will create a situation in which people will believe that a telephone is an amenity in some cases and an essential piece of equipment in other cases and that the demand for telephones will continue to rise. That could have been foreseen many years ago. It is there to be demonstrated today. I believe that demand will continue so far as the use of telephones is concerned.

I hope the Minister will succeed in getting access to new equipment and that he will find it possible to train more personnel so that he can deal with these applications for installation of telephones expeditiously. There was a rather bleak ring in his references to the possibility of being able to provide a service at an early date for the 10,000 who are awaiting telephones. I imagine that number will increase as the months go by, because nowadays so many people are connected up by telephone that it is a useful piece of social mechanism and, at the same time, a very valuable adjunct to business activities. The Minister should have another look at that matter to see whether he cannot, by recruitment and training, even in an extensive way, of more staff, and by the purchase of equipment, satisfy the demands for new telephones in a speedier way than they will be satisfied if the tempo of installation is as indicated in the tone and matter of the Minister's speech.

I should like to congratulate the Minister and the officers of his Department on the Estimate they have presented to the House. I want to raise a few matters which concern the western seaboard as a whole. As a result of the storms we had during the past few months, a great many lines were brought down, and the telephone system was disrupted. I should like to congratulate the men on the manner in which they got it back to working order in such a short time.

We on the western seaboard, in general, are not at all satisfied with the telephone service in so far as when one makes a call, it is impossible to hear the person at the other end. There are continuous interruptions as if a drill were working on another part of he line. I daresay that is something the technicians will look after, but when people have to pay for a call, they are entitled to hear and be heard clearly and distinctly in order that they can transact their business. Perhaps if an automatic system were provided, that problem would be solved.

I would be more pleased if I saw in the Estimate that the Minister and the Department were making some provision in regard to postmen's uniforms. Their uniforms are of a baggy nature and after a few showers of rain, they are more baggy looking. A better type of material should be provided and in the long run, that would not cost any more because they would last longer. They would also look better.

I know there are reasons for the delay in installing telephones but perhaps more men could be employed on such installations. When they are installed, more revenue will be collected from them.

With regard to postmen in general, I believe that every postman in every part of the country, in every city and town, should be made permanent and pensionable. They are entitled to that and in this country we should not have such a person as an auxiliary or temporary postman. They should be permanent, and pensionable at the end of their service.

This is one of the Estimates we discuss on which it is true to say that the book-keeping and income are satisfactory. The postal services, the telephone service and the general operations of the Department, have been carried out on a basis of good management over the years.

When I see an increase in the Telephone Capital Repayments of almost £177,000, what strikes me is the fact that certain other Government-run organisations and semi-State companies make no repayments. By and large, we are approaching that part of the Posts and Telegraphs Estimate in a proper and constructive fashion, by comparison with Aer Lingus, C.I.E. and various other State-run organisations.

We proceed from that to the statement of the Minister that there is a waiting list of 10,000 for new telephones. The increase in the amount allotted for engineering stores and equipment is £979,000. When we take the fact that there is a waiting list for telephones, and when the Minister tells us that we can expect no speedy solution, of course one realises that there is almost a go-slow policy in operation. I know the highly complicated difficulties there are in the provision of trunk lines to take the volume of business. The difficulties are so obvious that they cannot be minimised but, at the same time, I think this year we might have seen, as Deputy Dillon said, an expedition to the Minister for Finance in order to get under way a much greater effort to provide people with the telephones they desire. No business of any size can operate now without a telephone, and as we proceed from 1962 to 1963, that trend will be magnified out of all knowledge.

There is one type of applicant for a telephone to whom I should like to refer. Ten years ago, or even five years ago, it was quite unusual for a farmer to have a telephone, but the complexities of modern agriculture and the trend of modern living have meant that most farmers of any size, in the eastern counties at least, desire to have a telephone. That type of telephone in its little local application —it is also the telephone that calls the doctor and which the neighbours use —provides almost a public as well as a private service.

The difficulty the Minister foresees in this delay in meeting the demand is unmanageable loads on the exchanges and on the trunk lines. I do not accept that. For instance, in my constituency in a sub-post office like Togher or Clogherhead, or in the post office at Dunleer or Castlebellingham, there are one or two operatives. Two is the maximum and it is usually one. They would not be overworked if there were a speeding up in the provision of telephones for farmers in those districts. I believe the great majority of the calls made by those farmers would be to the local towns. There would not be trunk calls to Cork, Belfast or Dublin in great numbers.

I do not believe that defence is a valid one because my experience is that the number of telephone numbers in one of those small exchanges is possibly, 20, 10 or eight, and in one case I know of, it is 65. That number of subcribers would not mean that the post post offices would be over-loaded. Perhaps the extra number of calls in a large exchange like Drogheda or Dundalk would mean increased work, but I do not accept, so far as the small country post offices are concerned, as a valid defence that there would be gross over-loading of the exchanges.

The slide rule that I should like to put to the problem is: if this were being done by private enterprise would this House, which would then presumably give some sort of monopoly in certain districts, accept the present situation? I maintain that the House would not accept the situation as it has existed over the last few years. Private enterprise would say that the job had to be done. Wherever they might get the money or however hard they might have to work, they would do it. When a Government Department are asked to do something and the pressure gets too hot all they do is to close up like a clam and say to themselves that they will sit tight and draw their salaries in any case for the next month or the next year. I fear that is so and I think that more could be done to reduce the present waiting list of 10,000. In relation to the figure required here for engineering stores and equipment that figure of 10,000 is relatively very small but it will grow. A great effort might have been made to get the Minister for Finance to loosen his pursestrings for this purpose.

There are 47 Fine Gael Deputies on these benches and there was one copy of the Minister's speech available to them. At the same time, I counted five officials, all with copies of the speech and at least six Fianna Fáil Deputies came into the back benches plentifully supplied with it. I believe it is the Minister's duty, through his officials, to see that an adequate number of copies of his speech is made available to this side of the House.

The usher brought in the copies.

I may be responsible for that myself; if I had asked for them, I feel I would have got them. I would not wish the Minister to be under any misunderstanding about this matter as I feel that if I had asked for more copies, I would have got them. If I did not ask for more, I was at fault.

Thank you.

Would there be another copy available now?

There is another matter I should like to reply to and that is the method of appointment of postmen and postmasters in the country districts. I speak of this in no critical way with regard to the present Minister. I am glad to say that any representation I ever made to him was received with the greatest courtesy. However, there is dissatisfaction in relation to the method of appointment. As I understand it, the Minister makes the appointment himself. He may not make the selection himself but he sanctions the appointment and in that way he is involved. That is very unsatisfactory because whatever decision is made the criticism can be offered to it that he gave the post to a member of his own political Party.

He always does.

I do not always.

It is a red letter day when he does not.

This is an unsatisfactory situation. I can tell you a funny story that is true. When the new post office in Drogheda was about to be built, it was obvious that it should be on one of three sites, but eventually it was built about a quarter of a mile away from the most obvious one. The reason given for not building it there was that it would have had to have steps up to the entrance. I remember the late Councillor Pentony giving us the full details at the Corporation meeting and then somebody adverted to the fact that there were two steps leading up to the entrance to the new post office which had cost £120,000 to build. When things like that happen, one gets the feeling that all this is done by Party patronage.

Perhaps the answer is that these things are done by Party patronage.

I had a case of a married man with four children who was knocked out of a job and a young unmarried man put into it because he was a member of a Fianna Fáil club.

It was not that at all.

You will excuse me if I am kind to the Minister but he is a neighbour of mine.

I am not too far away from him myself.

I would ask the Minister to indicate in his reply whether he intends to continue that system.

The answer is "yes".

Or would he consider some other method of doing it so as to get away from the political Party manner of doing it.

He does it consistently from the labour exchange but the member of the Fianna Fáil club turns up most miraculously at the labour exchange. I believe it is done through some official at Dublin Castle.

When one listens to the news in Irish from Radio Éireann or Telefís Éireann, one finds that the announcer is a man from the Gaeltacht with a great blás. I can understand a reasonable amount of Irish, which I learned in school, but I cannot understand these announcers. To give an illustration, when Deputy Ó Briain speaks Irish from the far side of the House, I can understand him perfectly because he is not a native speaker. He is from Limerick, and while I may not like what he says, I can understand him. However, when my friend, Deputy "Pa" O'Donnell stands up and speaks in Irish, I do not understand a word he says. My objection to the present situation in Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann is that the ordinary people who learned Irish in school do not understand the announcer with the blás. If we proceed to broadcast in Irish, in ten or 15 years' time, we will get down to basic Irish and the blás will go. Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann might take note of that.

There is one other matter I should like to mention. In many business houses, a system of automatic dial telephones is now being installed. There are four or five phones to the different departments in the business but there is no exchange. The user presses a button when he wishes to speak to a certain department. I understand that the charge for the hire of these instruments from the Department is so prohibitive that many business people are buying their own installations from private firms, and that it is possible to instal these systems, having bought them at considerable capital expenditure. I wonder would the Minister look into that matter because it is something of which more widespread use will be made. Would the Minister indicate if any reduction in the hire charges of those instruments can be foreseen?

Let me start off by complimenting the Minister on what he has done during the past year in initiating Telefís Éireann.

Up to very recently, it was supposed that the office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was a sinecure, that he was the Minister for stamps and postal orders, but anybody can see this Minister has not had it any way easy. He has had a rough time and we are all glad to see he has come out of it so well. He has done an excellent job as far as that operation is concerned and as one of his severest critics in many other fields, I think it only fair I should compliment him on that aspect of his work.

The amount required here is very large but in view of the explanation which has been given, I suppose the money must be found. Almost every Deputy who has spoken here today said that further improvements should be made in various services. Of course, if improvements in services are required, money must be found to pay for them. It is only when we come to finding the money that the real trouble starts. As long as we remember that the improved services must carry with them the necessity to find the money, we can view the whole matter from the correct aspect.

I do not propose to go over the points which were covered so ably by the previous speakers but there are one or two points to which I think it is important to refer. Deputy Geoghegan referred to the question of postmen's uniforms. It is a fact that while practically every other branch of the public service has been from time to time attempting to improve the type of uniform which the employees have to wear, the postman still goes around in an old-type uniform which during the summer must be just the last word in discomfort. We all know that under the regulations if a postman is found with his cap off while cycling along in some country district, he is likely to be reprimanded for it. Neither the cap nor the uniform is suitable for the warm weather which we do occasionally get. The whole outfit is anything but dressy and it would be a good idea if the uniform were improved.

The pay of the postmen, while it has been improved, is not what it should be. I refer particularly to the auxiliary postmen down the country. The time has long passed when they should be included in a pension scheme. When these men, some of whom have given 40 or 45 years' service to the Post Office, come to retirement, they get no pension at all. The Minister would do well to have that matter considered.

A Deputy asked a question last week about postmen's pay and was informed by the Minister that they did not get a weekly rate but an hourly rate. The trouble about an hourly rate is that if a person reports to a post office for temporary duty and is required to work four or five hours in a day, there is no point in saying he is entitled to only 12/- or 15/-, because that is his day's work. Nobody else will be found who is prepared to accept him for other work after the best hours of the day have gone. If these men are employed by the Post Office to do a job, they should be paid a basic weekly wage so that they can live. The Minister himself knows of many instances where this occurs. Quite recently, I came across a case where a man was replacing a postman who was ill for a temporary period. For some peculiar reason, the Post Office wanted to pay the person who replaced him £2 a week less than the other man was getting. Say the rate was £5 15/-; they wanted to pay him under £4. That is too ridiculous for words, because more work had to be done by the man who came in not knowing the route. The Minister could look into that.

I should like to add my voice to the appeal made by other speakers about the appointment of postmen. We had one shocking case in my constituency recently and I am afraid the Minister did not come too well out of it.

I came very well out of it.

The Minister may have been made to carry the bag for somebody other than himself. It is too bad if that should be so. We know the situation where three names are sent up from the labour exchange and the Minister is entitled to select one. If a Fianna Fáil applicant is selected, the Minister can, I suppose, justify that by saying that there are so many Fianna Fáil people in the country, it is only natural they should be two out of three. However, in this case, the man was in the job. He had been on the dole, not receiving unemployment benefit but unemployment assistance. The Department had him suspended for no reason at all and had him replaced by the treasurer of the local Fianna Fáil cumann who was on unemployment benefit which was more than what he received for doing the job as postman. The Minister has been criticised by me and others for his action. Possibly he was not directly responsible for it and I know local pressure can be very strong.

There was no pressure whatsoever.

That makes the matter a whole lot worse. The responsibility then rests clearly on the Minister's shoulders because the man who was doing the job was taken out of it. There was no blot on his character.

There was no blot on his character at all.

We all know what the dole is. This man was getting 28/- on the dole and he was replaced by a man who was getting something around £5 per week on the labour exchange. The job he got was worth about £4 15s. As a result of the investigation, the Department of Social Welfare reduced the rate of the man on the dole to 26/- a week. I would appeal to the Minister, not in any spirit of acrimony, that in future he should himself go very deeply into these matters in order to prevent a recurrence of such a situation.

I go very deeply into all these matters but there are regulations by which the postmaster must abide.

The man who got the job was not on unemployment assistance. The other man had the prior right but there is no question that two words describe this and those two words are "political pull".

Nobody approached me on the matter at all.

I am afraid I can produce evidence to this House to prove that is not correct.

It is right.

Surely the Minister knows who the treasurer of his cumann is.

I know both people well.

The man appointed was a very decent man. There was nothing wrong with his character.

Deputy Tully knows the person he is talking about is in beneficial occupation of a farm of land.

The Minister is well aware that the man had not the use of the farm of land because it was tied up by the courts over the years. May I refer now briefly to the question of the appointment of subpostmasters? I had a question down to the Minister and he gave an answer which was perfectly true but this again involved the right to select one of three. The Minister selected one of three. I agree it was a coincidence. I would not claim it was anything more than a coincidence, but it was a wonderful coincidence. In every case the person selected was the keyman of the Fianna Fáil Party in the area. The Minister knows one particular case better than any of the rest of us. The man was a Garda. As a member of the Garda Siochána he could not be appointed. He resigned on Saturday from the Garda Síochána and was appointed the following Wednesday.

Is he a Fianna Fáil supporter?

He attends the meetings. Maybe he was just codding in order to get the job.

I do not like interrupting the Deputy, but I do not always get three from the Board.

That makes it much easier, of course.

The regulation says the Board may not submit more than three. In many cases, they submit only one.

If I put down a question will the Minister tell me in how many instances he got less than three?

It is not the practice to give that information.

I will give the Minister the information now. With one exception, there were at least three declared suitable for appointment in every case.

The Deputy must have been looking at official documents.

I was not, but I am, at least, in touch with my constituents. I know what happened. I believe the Minister is a very decent man and I merely raise this matter, not for any contentious purpose but merely to advise the Minister that he should decide these things himself and should not allow himself to be coerced into doing things by other people, people who have views to which he, in normal circumstances, would not subscribe.

With regard to subpostmasters, the crib is that they are not being adequately paid. Postmen and subpostmasters are the face of the Department of Social Welfare in the country. On the way in which they act the ordinary public in the country view the Department of Social Welfare. Every effort should be made to keep these people as happy as possible. I should be very glad to hear the Minister has agreed to meet the subpostmasters to discuss the position with them. The Minister said that these people have conciliation.

I did not say that. They have consultation, and consultation only.

Consultation means that they have a chat with the officials of the Department and, if agreement is not reached, the officials decide. The subpostmasters have no further say, good, bad or indifferent. What is needed is independent arbitration. It is their right and they should get it.

There is another matter affecting the Minister's Department. It is the question of children's allowances. One section in the Minister's Department do not receive the same children's allowances as everybody else for the simple reason that they were promoted from postman. All they ask is that there should be arbitration on the matter. There is no reason why they should not get arbitration. Other sections are entitled to it. It is only fair they should get it.

With regard to Telefís Éireann, I have been a T.V. viewer for the past eight or nine years. I think Telefís Éireann are doing a wonderful job. The highlight so far was not the official opening but the St. Patrick's Day programme. It is one many people will remember for a long time. Telefís Éireann showed what can be done with good camera work. I do not agree with Deputy Donegan's views with regard to the announcers. I think the announcers on both Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann are doing a wonderful job in both Irish and English. One good thing is that we have no announcers trying to adopt a mock-Oxford accent. The announcers use their ordinary Irish accents. The Authority is to be congratulated on its choice of announcers.

On the children's programme, there is one man who can be described only as a stage Irishman. He has the collar of his coat turned up; he takes a tin-whistle out of his pocket and he blows a few blasts; he talks out of the side of his mouth as if his mouth were full of marbles. That does nothing for the service. If the same type of programme were given on the BBC, it would be frowned on and there would be letters to the papers accusing the BBC of putting on a stage Irishman. Apparently on our own programme, it is a wonderful thing. I am sure the man is a good artist if only he would decide not to carry on in the fashion I have mentioned.

The result of the steps being taken by Telefís Éireann to give reception in areas now blacked out is something that is worrying many of us. We have been getting two free services, and now a third service, for £4 and we do not feel too well disposed towards any suggestion that we may lose these two free services in an effort to improve reception of the third for others. It is only natural. No matter who will be obliged, we do not want to be discommoded. I am sure the Minister is doing everything possible to eliminate interference. Admittedly there are some shocking programmes on ITV, UTV and the BBC, but people are under no compulsion to view them. They can either turn off altogether or switch over. The suggestion that they should be blacked out completely because of an occasional bad programme is too ridiculous for words.

People now feel entitled to have these programmes. They have been enjoying them for years. Very often there are very fine programmes from UTV. Céili House deserves honourable mention. Telefís Éireann have nothing yet to compare with it. There are no ladders in the way of the cameras. An effort should be made to prevent interference with programmes from UTV and the BBC.

Reference was made to appearances on Telefís Éireann. On the opening night things were a little monotonous. No matter how photogenic a man may be, his continued appearance again and again, and again rather spoils things for some. I did not mind. One gets used to these things. Since then, however, there has been a considerable amount of difficulty in arriving at a satisfactory working policy. I do not know whether I am within the rules of order in discussing this, but there was a discussion with the representatives of the three main Parties and I have no doubt in my mind at all that the representatives of Telefís Éireann agreed on a certain formula which was to be used with, of course, a certain amount of elasticity.

I was amazed to find that the formula was not only completely ignored but subsequently disowned by the people who made it. The Whips of the three Parties present remembered distinctly that in fact arrangements were made and would bear out my interpretation. We thought the arrangements were fair: that on Budget Day or any special occasion, there should be a representative of the Government, of the Fine Gael Party and of the Labour Party and then a representative of the Government to conclude; and that on any other occasion, the programmes should be balanced. If a member of one Party appeared, he should be balanced off by a member of another Party within a reasonable time. That was agreed and everybody felt it was fair. But we have had a succession of members of the Government Party appearing, and only on rare occasions have members of the other Parties appeared. So far, only two members of our Party have appeared. We think that is not playing the game. I do not know whether the Minister has any say in this. If he has, I would like him to inquire into it.

I have no say in that matter.

It is a pity, because I feel the Minister could deal with it. Sooner or later, Telefís Éireann will realise that all the people are not Fianna Fáil supporters and that there are a few, as this House shows, who do not consistently vote Fianna Fáil. If the Minister has no say, there is no point in going any further with it.

The Minister could make representations to them.

He could, but he feels he should not interfere with them.

I would not like to put it that way. It is a matter for consideration. It is a matter which gives the Minister a good deal of food for thought, but I am precluded under the Act from interfering in the day-to-day administration of the Authority.

There is a matter I should like to raise in connection with the telephone service. If a subscriber leaves an area and a telephone line is no longer needed, I thought, as a layman, that it would be only natural to give that line to a subscriber in the area anxious to get a connection and to connect him as quickly as possible. I thought that would be good business, but I found it could not be done. I have in mind a case in Donore, County Meath, where somebody left the area three or four months ago, and another person asked for the line but was told he could not have it. He could have it if he agreed to pay for a line from Drogheda, and the money was to be refunded over the years according as he repaid. I do not think that was a reasonable way to deal with the matter. If there is an idle line, I think it should be given.

In cases where lines are discontinued, it is not right that the poles and wires should be left. If there is one thing which mars the appearance of the countryside, it is this network of wires, E.S.B. lines, telephone lines and everything else. Many of them are very necessary and we cannot have services without them. But if lines are no longer needed, there is no reason why they should be left there. I had the unfortunate experience one night of driving into a line lying on the road. I was told a few days afterwards that that line had been abandoned and that therefore it would not be reported for repair in the normal way. These matters should be dealt with as quickly as possible. There is no reason why unwanted lines should not be taken down, thus at least improving that portion of the countryside.

I believe the new system of numbering the Dublin postal districts is a good idea and is working very well. I was intrigued to hear Deputy Dillon say he did not know how it worked. I assumed that everybody knew that by attaching the number of the postal district to the address, it saved a lot of sorting work and certainly helped in the delivery of letters. In the country areas, however, something else has happened. A change has been made in the postal addresses there. This is an entirely different matter from the case in the city. This has improved the postal services in many areas but it has brought about a shockingly bad position in other areas.

There is one case I should like to refer to. The address of a certain person in County Meath was Woodtown, Drumconrath, Ardee. Woodtown, Ardee, is three miles away from Ardee. The new address was Woodtown, Drumconrath, Navan, which is a distance of 24 or 25 miles away from Navan. It took letters three or four days to go out to this person's place, whereas formerly it took only one day. There is another aspect to this. People travelling around the country tend to go by postal addresses. If a person in Drogheda is told that somebody's address is Woodtown, Drumconrath, Navan, and goes over to Navan to find him, he discovers he has just left a place within a few miles of where the person lives. That is something that has caused a lot of confusion. Travelling around the country we find we are miles away from where we wanted to go, and there is nothing we can do about it but retrace our steps. I do not know whether the Minister can do anything about this matter, but if he can, I should like him to deal with it.

Deputy Dillon referred to the matter of direct dialling in the country districts. I do not agree with him at all. Perhaps he had an unfortunate experience. However, I think it is a wonderful improvement. I make as many trunk calls as anyone and I have yet to make one and get a wrong number. That is more than I could say previously.

The past year has been perhaps a very heavy one for the Minister, but, speaking as one who has been very critical of him in many spheres, I think he has done extremely well. While his Estimate is much bigger than those responsible for the public purse would like, nevertheless, if services are to be given, the money must be provided.

Finally, I want to say this: within the past few days, a new threepenny commemorative stamp was issued. In view of the fact that the ordinary postal rate will be increased to four-pence in some weeks' time, why was the new stamp not held up until the fourpenny rate came into force and issued as a 4d. stamp?

The decision to issue the commemorative stamp was taken many months ago; the decision to increase the rate of postage was taken only recently.

Looking at the Minister's statement, one thing strikes me rather forcibly—the Department is paying its way. That is one thing we are glad to hear. The Department is being run, like all good Departments should be, on business lines. It is paying its way.

It has always paid its way.

It did not always pay.

It did not pay its way ten years ago. It is only paying its way for the past five years.

Nonsense.

There is a deficit of £1,000,000 at the moment.

It is good to learn that it is paying its way on sound business lines. Taking the staff end of it, I was glad to hear of the results of this work study which was introduced in the Department. We hear quite a lot about work study throughout the country and a lot of suggestions that the system should be adopted in all Departments in order to cut down costs. It has had good results in this Department. There are 35 fewer people employed in the Accounts Branch of the Department now as compared with 1948. That is a big reduction when one considers that most Departments have been increasing their staffs.

It is good also to see that the claims of 90 per cent. of the staff have been settled by agreement, but I should like to see the other ten per cent. get the same treatment. They are the postmasters and postmistresses. I feel that when the Minister meets them he will consider their case sympathetically.

In my area, the automatic line from Dublin to Sligo passes along the main road on which two important exchanges, Enfield and Kilcock, are situated not so far away. Maynooth and Leixlip and Kinnegad are on the automatic switch. Enfield and Kilcock are on the old system and I know they would feel very happy if they could be put on the exchange. It looks peculiar to see the automatic line running past the door and yet to be working on the old system. Ballivor which is only five or six miles away from Raharney, which is automatic, is connected to Enfield, a long and tedious service. It is covering a big area, including Castlerickard, Rathmolyon and Longwood.

In North Kildare, they are putting in quite a number of new exchanges. In areas such as these, postmasters and postmistresses have been for years trying to build up a service by canvassing new subscribers so that they might get higher rates of pay. They have been rather successful, only to find that the Department came along to say: "You have too many subscribers for your switchboard; we will have to go down the road and establish a new switch". Consequently, the people they had recruited to the service are being lost to them as well as a certain proportion of their pay. They feel rather annoyed about it and if something could be done about it, they would be greatly pleased. If there were automatic exchanges, their conditions would be much improved. After they have worked very long hours, it is particularly galling when they see their colleagues in offices down the road free at six o'clock, while they have to work on.

I see from the Estimate that 184,000 miles of telephone lines were laid down last year but it does not seem to be nearly enough because we see that the waiting list has risen to 10,000. This is a service which is particularly paying its way. All it needs is capital to enlarge its operations and I would urge the Minister for Finance to provide more capital so that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will be able to get down to solving the problem of this long waiting list.

The telephone is very important these days. Even in the case of farmers, it saves a lot of trouble when they can telephone for the services they need. Shopkeepers, doctors and priests all have telephones in their houses and all people have to do, particularly in the spring and the busy season, is telephone. It is particularly useful to the farmer if his machinery breaks down. Instead of going from place to place seeking replacements, he can telephone the different agents till he finds one who has the required part. Then he can go directly and fetch it.

While on this subject, I should like to express appreciation of the fact that automatic exchanges are to be brought to the Curragh Camp, Ballyshannon and Kildare before the end of the year. This will definitely speed the service up and will mean a lot of relief for subpostmasters and subpostmistresses.

There are still people in a few areas in my constituency, such as Croboy and Hill of Down, who have cause for complaint about the postal deliveries. They get their mail as late as four o'clock in the afternoon and that does not give them much chance of replying until the following day. It is particularly hard on communities who do a lot of correspondence with the Meath County Council.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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